Ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia? Where was Writing Invented? (3500-3000 BC)

[@WanaxTV]

Great video Cy! Impossible to say really. The margin of error in dating is too big to decisively conclude when debating something that goes that far back (5000+ years ago), plus the earliest 'discovered' writings are almost certainly not the actual earliest writings that each respective civilization created. I prefer to give both of them equal credit!

[@bosertheropode5443]

Love you're work by the way

[@HistorywithCy]

I agree, there are still so many unknowns and it's hard to date these things. There are still so many prehistoric sites that need to be excavated that who knows, more early forms of writing could still be discovered. Thanks for watching my friend and hope all is well on your end! We should chat soon!

[@HistorywithCy]

@@bosertheropode5443 me too! @WanaxTV is one of the most underrated channels on KZbin and one of my favorites!

[@faithlesshound5621]

What's the point of asking the class which system they they think came first?

[@WanaxTV]

@@bosertheropode5443 Thanks, appreciate it!

[@todayilearnedabout]

I tend to lean towards the 2 languages developing independently of each other. Cuniform is primary lines and hieroglyphics are depictive. From most stuff I have learned pre-dynastic Egypt was relatively isolated. Such exciting debate as to which came first! Great video.

[@HistorywithCy]

I'm also in the same camp and believe that the two more or less developed independently of each other. Thanks for watching!

[@alecstirner2412]

I guess it was aliens ;) BTW both egyptian and mesopotamian writing systems started as pictographic; Two different civilization that had to face similar administration problems came up with a similar problem solution; I think that how they evolved it's mostly due the the main media chosen i.e. papyrus in egypt and clay in mesopotamia

[@froggystyle642]

@@alecstirner2412 Yeah, an example of proto-cuneiform is the "head with a bowl" pictogram meaning "to eat", which eventually gave way primary lines.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@vidren_14]

@@HistorywithCy My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@user-jwill]

Personally I think their writing evolved independently like convergent evolution. I dunno which was first but I think it was very close in time because their civilizations had evolved to be so complex as to require writing 🤷‍♂️

[@HistorywithCy]

I'm in the same camp...thanks for watching!

[@justicetruth5456]

Convergent evolution? How?

[@andysawyer647]

I think writing started long ago in North/Central Africa. People don't understand the cultural continuity of the Nile.

[@froggystyle642]

I suppose complexity is a subjective term. The American civilizations didn't develop writing (apart from the Maya, around 3rd century BC) and were extremely complex. I'd go with you on convergent evolution for this reason. Although only the Maya did it, they were (obviously) isolated from any other culture in the so called "old world" which also did it, albeit well before them (I'd argue a greater population/ more intermingling cultures/trade, as well as agricultural fertility would be the key drivers for it happening in the middle east at an earlier point in time). On the Sumer vs Egypt question, I'm on the fence really. Apologies for the poor construction of the above paragraph, it's a Sunday morning 🤦‍♂

[@justicetruth5456]

@@froggystyle642 How do you explain Cocaine in the body of Egyptian Mummies? No contact? Convergent evolution? Makes no sense. It does not exist.

[@richardarcher7177]

Given that the systems are so different and the earliest examples of both date from more or less the same time my guess is that it's a case of two different peoples, each having the same problem, independently come up with a solution that suits them best that just happen to be different. In the long run (use and development over millennia) certain scripts last better because they're more adaptable whereas others are attuned to a particular language. Cuneiform and not Heiroglyphics became the written language of diplomacy for the bronze age probably because the former was adaped more readily to other languages and could be written on a durable clay tablet more readily available to most peoples. It's noteworthy that the Ancient Levant - the place where they cultures if the two systems ended up butting heads - was also the source of the Canaanite/Phoenician aplhabetic script we use today. It would also be interesting to speculate on what influence the Eteocretan (Minoan) or Mycenean Greek script had on these developments as well (if any). In any case - another excellent video from History with Cy.

[@andysawyer647]

The PIE culture took over rhe Ubaid culture (Summerians). We only know of then because of the Akkadians from the same PIE culture. To me the Summerians or Ubaid would be a mix of Nile valley and harrapan cultures.

[@adam-k]

The developed systems are different the early forms are not.

[@Wayfaringwolf]

I think it's best to describe findings similar to these as the 'earliest known', as it is unlikely that what has been discovered are the earliest examples.

[@Topicushistory]

Totally I wouldn't be surprised if they find another find some day that would push those proposed dates back further still.

[@charlesspeaksthetruth4334]

Another great video Cy. I been meaning to ask, have you ever done a video on Nabta Playa? Possibly the oldest astronomical megalithic site in the world? That's now considered to be at the southern tip of the Egypt border but in ancient times was considered to be Lower Nubia or The Nubian desert.

[@HistorywithCy]

No, not a full video but I mentioned it I think in an older predynastic Egypt or the Kush/Nubia video (I forget which one). It'd be an interesting topic to delve into further. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@ALIKN1-1]

Egyptian knows mesopotamia is the origin but due to Nasser these claims were established

[@SkyFly19853]

I think it's Sumer since Ancient Egyptians used pictures as an alphabet...

[@HistorywithCy]

You know I'll admit I'm a bit biased towards Mesopotamia because I've been studying that region for so long and was always taught that the Sumerians invented writing (remembering S. N. Kramer's book History Begins at Sumer which I read perhaps 15 years ago!), but the arguments made by Dr. Dreyer are indeed compelling. Early proto-cuneiform was also a pictographic script so in that sense there are similarities between the two. Interesting stuff! Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@SkyFly19853]

@@HistorywithCy Oh... That's interesting... So, it might be both ways... 🤔 You are welcome, btw.

[@TheMesopotamian-f9]

Sumar of course did you count little images of animal and other stuff writing system

[@2logj]

Nice video about where and when Writing originated.Perhaps we should also compare the writings not only of Egypt and Sumer but also of Harrapa. Harrapan script are much older to some Sumerian scripts.We need to compare all three together.

[@SobekLOTFC]

Eeeeey- new History with Cy. It's a great day! 😊

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, hope you enjoy it!

[@robbabcock_]

Great stuff, Cy! It's probably that we'll never really know which was first; it's likely lost in the mists of time.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah unless we have a time machine, or some discoveries with even earlier writing are uncovered, the jury will still be out. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and stay tuned for more!

[@jamielondon6436]

@@HistorywithCy Much older writings have been discovered in the Danubian area.

[@thadsul]

Cy! Sempre que vier ao Brasil, em especial ao Rio de Janeiro, seja muito bem-vindo! I didn't know you learned portuguese or visited our historical sites

[@HistorywithCy]

Sim, trabalhava e morava no Brasil por quase 4 anos, a maioria do tempo na Sampa, mas morei no Rio de Janeiro por ses meses. No meu coracao, sou carioca! Meu lugar favorito no Rio? BB Lanches em Leblon...melhor acai no mundo! Talvez vou visitar janeiro o feverero...te aviso! Valeeeeu amigo, thanks for watching!

[@thadsul]

@@HistorywithCy vem sim, fevereiro tem carnaval e faz calor, ótimo pra tomar um açaí

[@maykonjunkes6027]

@@thadsul Poxa, é sacanagem convidar alguém para o verão carioca com seus 59C, hahahaha...

[@maykonjunkes6027]

​@@HistorywithCy Wow, even 'Cyrus The Great' loves açaí!

[@AndreLuis-gw5ox]

You are learning portuguese? My condolences! Haha jokes aside, thank you for the new video! It helps me keep focused at work

[@HistorywithCy]

Haha yes, I can actually a speak a decent amount from living in Brasil for about 4 years, but as I've not been there since 2015, my Portuguese is getting a bit rusty. Thanks for watching and hope all is well on your end!

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

I personally think that the title of the oldest writing systems should go to Egypt because Symbols with phonetic values were introduced into the Cuneiform script around 3100B.C before that was the proto-Cunieform (3500B.C.) Script which had no phonetic values but rather many symbols and signs that represent items to keep record of taxes and belongings. Meanwhile, in Egypt Phonetic values were used as early as King Scorpion I and tomb U-j dating back to 3200B.C - 3400 B.C, these symbols found in tomb U-j were not just pictographs like those found in mesopotamia but were actually symbols with phonetic values that described the name of the city they came from. I watch a documentary about predynastic Egypt and in it, Gunther Dryer read few of them and clearly stated that such form of writing never existed in mesopotamia before the Jemdet-Nasr period (3100 B.C.)

[@at0mly]

lmao you mean the guy who discovered u-j thinks it's the oldest and therefore he should get credit for discovering the oldest? no bias i am sure.

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

@@at0mly he did not think, he actually read it in the documentary. Even if you take the most recent dating, it still predates phonetic writing in Mesopotamia.

[@abdelra7man87]

I am Egyptian so I might be biased. Aside from which one was first, I believe both were independelty develped.

[@Amadeu.Macedo]

Great video! This topic has been highly debated throughout sites such as Quora, of which I am a member. As such, given my inescapable love of Ancient Mesopotamia (particularly Sumer and Assyria), I have no doubt that the cuneiform script was the first known human writing system! Naturally, I confess that I am relatively biased on this matter...

[@jamielondon6436]

It was predated (and probably influenced) by 1500 years by the Danubian culture script, though.

[@channel_archistoriac]

I heard an opinion that there are no cultural levels under the Ancient Egyptian cultural level, that it came there in the ready made form and didn't develop there.

[@chubbymoth5810]

Writing obviously evolved from trade and the requirement of traders to keep account of things and send messages to remote employees. No doubt some court official saw the use of that and would have introduced it at court. Or possibly a court requiring higher volumes of goods would have developed it's own version.

[@faithlesshound5621]

Why must it have been traders? An ordinary housewife who has more than one identical storage jar needs to know what's in each, and how old it is. If more than one person works in her kitchen, memory alone becomes less reliable, especially if the jars are easy to move around. They need to mark the jars in some way! That applies as much to 21st century Tupperware as to prehistoric earthenware. How do illiterate people cope nowadays?

[@erikprank4611]

Sumerian Lexical lists would also be an interesting topic to cover a more thoroughly.

[@dr.banoub9233]

We’re missing the big picture. Egyptian hieroglyphs are either older, compared to Chinese , or ancestral to all writing systems in use today. Therefore, Egyptians developed the greatest of writing systems.

[@johnnysmall]

Wow just rewatched the Scorpion king video last night where you mentioned this! Thats crazy lol

[@HistorywithCy]

Man I've been meaning to watch that movie for the longest time! Heard it's interesting...not historically accurate, but interesting. Thanks for watching!

[@johnnysmall]

@@HistorywithCy from what i remember from when i was a kid it’s entertaining for sure, but i don’t think you’re missing out on much having not seen it :D

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah that's what people have told me but I still want to check it out. Heard there's a guy in it called "the Akkadian."

[@johnnysmall]

@@HistorywithCy oh that’s cool must have forgotten that might have to rewatch as well now haha

[@adrianokury]

We usually take writing for granted. But its invention happened so few times in mankind's history, it's amazing... Even the cuneiform was used to write clearly unrelated languages, with the syllabic Sumerian system inadequate for Acadian for example.

[@henkstersmacro-world]

Thank you Cy, don't know who was first but I've learned something new, just after waking up😁👍👍👍

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks my friend, always great to learn new things...enjoy your day and thanks for watching!

[@loke6664]

There is a third possible option, the Vinča symbols (also known as the Danube script). Those aren't proven to be writing so we can't be sure and if they were, they were only used to write short sentences, names and words, no anything longer. So however was the slightly later Indus valley script so it should still counts if they indeed have meaning and isn't just decorative. The Indus valley script are a while after the others so it wasn't first at least. The Vinča symbols showed up a couple of hundred years before the other 2 so there is a possibility neither of the 2 contenders invented writing first. I do believe they were invented without influence from eachother though, the only likeness is that both of them are writing systems. Both had good reasons to invent a way to record things since the kingdoms started to become large and writing is more or less required in that case. Trying to memorize what all jars contain and who you are storing them for in an actual city is far from easy and what happens if the person who know the order dies? That is not even considering taxes which certainly requires writing to really work. It is kinda hard to prove which came first but new finds might prove one or the other in the future (and if the Vinča symbols is writing or just decorations for that matter, I am leaning towards them not being writing but it is impossible to be sure. Some linguistics experts have looked on them and said that they could be).

[@Texasmade74]

The Vinca culture definitely had a written script and the Indus Valley civilization is up there with Egypt and sumer

[@loke6664]

@@Texasmade74 They might have, but at this moment we aren't sure. If we could find something with a bit of longer writing on it would be proven. I think there is a lot of more archaeology just waiting for us in that area and it is a shame it doesn't get as much attention as many other areas. As for the Indus valley civilization it was an important and ancient civilization but their script was later then cuneiform and hieroglyphs so it depends on what you mean with "up there".

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@loke6664]

@@vidren_14 What does that have to do with writing? Don't tell me every single archaeologist since people started to excavate the area in the mid 19th century is part of a conspiracy and have hidden all the writings, that is more far fetched then the galactic beings part. Now, I don't have any problem with a 15 000 year old town from the area, that is certainly plausible. Jericho is 9000 and Boncurlu tarla is 11 500 . But the mainstream media keeping quit on something they would earn money on revealing? That doesn't sound very likely. And any archaeologist worth their salt would love to excavate a 15 000 year old town. Do you think they all are part of a world wide conspiracy? I'm sorry but "the main stream media" and "the main stream archaeologists" are conspiring is rather silly claims. Something like this would be in their interest to reveal. God kings is certainly in the culture of the area and claiming your lineage came from the sky (or the underworld as some did) is not really evidence that they did in either case, most cultures thought the Gods came from either of those 2. I sincerely doubt they said they came from "the galaxy" though, rather the heavens. But I am curious, can you show us some example of their writings? Because it would look nothing like cuneiform which we have rather good evidence gradually evolved around 5 000 years ago (and hieroglyphs dito).

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

As every school boy knows, writing was invented in Sumer around 3200-3300 BC. {:o:O:}

[@HistorywithCy]

True, that is what we're taught in school, but there is a growing group of scholars starting to challenge this... interesting arguments on both sides. Thanks for watching!

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

@@HistorywithCy Irving Finkel would disagree with you. 😉 {:o:O:}

[@HistorywithCy]

You mean with the Egyptologists. I'm not supporting one or the other in this video. As for Irving Finkel, he's one of my contemporary idols! I recently read his book on the first ghost and ghost stories...fascinating stuff!

[@Texasmade74]

@@HistorywithCy what's the name of his book on ghosts I may buy it?

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Texasmade74 it's called "The First Ghosts." I got it on Kindle from Amazon but you can also get a hard cover copy (which might be out of print). A paperback version is supposed to come out next year.

[@mohammadawyan5236]

I think both were developed roughly around the same time independently, maybe an ancient master, poet, philosopher, or prophet went to both civilizations. Thank you for your videos.

[@skafazzation666]

Great video Cy. Hey what about that famous ancient text whose name I forget that talks about the Lord of Aratta? Is that not a good insight as to the beginning of practical writing?

[@devinsmith4790]

I'd say both scripts were probably invented roughly the same time, and we can never be certain who came up with proto-writing first. I'd also say that while it's possible Egypt might have been influenced by the Proto-Cuneiform of Sumer, it's also possible they conceived of writing independently. It wouldn't be an alien concept, we know that China and the pre-Columbian civilizations of Mesoamerica invented writing independently after all.

[@promiscuous5761]

Thank you.

[@HistorywithCy]

You're welcome!

[@SilverSquirrel]

I think the pot marks might be to help tally up the number of pots each porter carried, like signatures to make sure the workers pay was correct.

[@HistorywithCy]

Hmm, interesting and totally possible. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@freefall9832]

Labels for who was taxed by head bully of the day

[@VerrouSuo]

Hey Cy, great video! I’ve always had a running interest in linguistics. Quick question, though: How do we know the pictographs discovered on the U-J tags were not simply ideograms (which I would argue doesn’t constitute a proper “writing system” because they don’t encode any linguistic information)?

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, great point, and there are many who agree with you. I honestly can't say but from my understanding, the reason some Egyptologists believe it’s the start of a full writing system is because a few of the tags have combinations of symbols somewhat similar to the Egyptian hieroglyphs that we are familiar with today, and that since the latter are known to constitute sounds and language, the argument is made that the ones from U-j must do the same. That’s what I gather from what I’ve read, but my knowledge of ancient Egyptian language is limited (I've studied some Akkadian and Old Persian, two totally different systems). If I find a more specific answer, I’ll definitely let you know. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@VerrouSuo]

No problem! Thanks for increasing my understanding.

[@richardarcher7177]

@@HistorywithCy Could be that the formal writing evolved out of the pictorgrams. What started as picture to denote the contents of a container or who owned said container then becomes a list and then a writing system. Unfortunately archeaology - no matter how comprehensive - still only presents us with a splinter of information and lots of blank spaces. Even if we somehow managed to get the great Egyptian Scholar Imhotep back from the dead he would not be able to tell us much on how his writing developed as it was old even in his day.

[@chubbymoth5810]

@@richardarcher7177 Writing is no requirement for civilisation. Plenty of those without writing.

[@ajithsidhu7183]

@@HistorywithCy by caveman

[@jennypoussin3866]

I would like to think both evolved in parallel, since there must have been some contacts between those two glorious civilizations. Another great video thanks!

[@Scribe13013]

yeah!!!

[@nikosmihalo4706]

first writing system is in europe and in africa in europe we have found vinca writing system of 6000 bc is in Danube river we have found and in Greece writing system of 6000 bc we have found and in ancient thrace writing system of 6000 bc and in france of 28.000 bc like and in africa.

[@holdingpattern245]

It also seems quite likely that Elam was involved too, since proto-Elamite fits into that same timeframe.

[@fatosdour2518]

Maybe they could have influenced each other via intermediary peoples. Lower Egypt could have been the place where these ideas could have been exchanged.

[@ArthurSum]

BUT, the oldest traces of civilization in Egypt are in the south..so..Don't think so...

[@FernandoVinny]

Apparently they both developed independently and around the same time.

[@mikehart5619]

Interesting video. It really shows that even though we continue to learn more, we don't know a lot of things and considering how long ago it was may never know for sure. I assume that the Egyptians and Sumerians developed writing about the same time independently of each other and did so to meet similar needs as their civilizations became more complex.

[@andysawyer647]

It would make the most sense that writing and language came from hunter gathers. Look up the Hadza or San and see how they hunt. You also have to understand that Medu Netjer was the sacred language of Ta-Meri, but the common written form in Nubia.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@vikingdemonpr]

Egypt was a pretty isolationist civilization. I would think the 2 systems developed independently around the same time

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah I believe the same, though I'm a little biased towards Mesopotamia being slightly earlier... let's see what archaeologists find in the future! More on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@toddmaek5436]

I have a feeling that the more Golbeke Tepe is unearthed that we will see writing that predates both Egypt and Sumer

[@LuisAldamiz]

Just look at so-called Vinca script, which includes texts from areas unrelated to Vinca culture in the Balcans, notably the Dispilio tablet because of its extreme antinquity (6th millennium BCE). Surely the first languages written were ancient Tyrsenian (Vinca-Dimini cultural complex) and ancient Vasconic (Bulgarian cultures such as Gradeshnitsa). I can't find anything older but Iberian script may also be as old as Egyptian and Sumerian ones (4th millennium) based on recent resarch on isolated "writings" on clay objects. Said that, writing is not necessary for other kind of acomplishments, not even farming was in the case of Göbekli Tepe (affluence and some sort of "potlach culture" may have been more important at least in this impressive site from Kurdistan).

[@HistorywithCy]

Oh one of the sites I hope to visit on my next trip to Turkey... Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and hope they continue excavating G. Tepe as I feel they've only scratched the surface of the area.

[@mathiasandersen3401]

I think the earliest writing is the "Vinca script"

[@roykay4709]

Thanks!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank YOU for watching and your support, really appreciate it!

[@roykay4709]

@@HistorywithCy - finally to where I can make contributions to the people who have been creating. I especially like your prolific entries, including areas usually not even mentioned.

[@HistorywithCy]

@@roykay4709 Thank you, that means a lot that you enjoy this sort of content! Lots more on the way, stay tuned and thanks again!

[@lyndsaybrown8471]

Evidence of record keeping/writing would postdate the invention of the record keeping/writing, so it is really tough to say.

[@lachbullen8014]

You want to know what I think in different parts of the world it takes time for societies to develop and adapt every Society around the world ancient past and now present had their own time period of evolution and establishment and we will never exactly 100% know who invented the writing system and to put it in one way or another I believe that the Egyptians and the ancient Mesopotamia both invented writing in the same time period...

[@owlthemolfar4690]

Thank you for the video! I think these writing systems were developed independently. Because writing is necessity for civilisation and, in this case, both have much 'local flavor' for corresponding regions. As for the age. It is hard. But, unless some forms of actual texts and not only labels would be discovered, I will consider Sumerian oldest. As, if I remember correctly, Sumer finds were actual tablets with full text, so it indicates, in my mind, existence of some form of grammar. Which we can not deduce from words or short sentences fron U-j. But tgst is how I understand it.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@StMiBll]

Rewatched this one after reading some books about human development from the Paleolithic to the dawn of Jericho. It got me thinking that writing as archaeology has recovered seems already to have a sophistication to it that-based on what we are learning about human development over the past few million years-makes me wonder if it isn’t representative of a system that was already hundreds or thousands of years in the making. The sudden explosion of writing wouldn’t be unique (given how little time humanity took on tech and advanced tech over the last 120-130 years) but I do wonder if there aren’t stones somewhere with the ancient predecessors of writing carved on them by some early pastoralist trying to mark his grazing area or a farmer recording his harvest or even some hunter who in having a success decided to record the moment on a cave wall or otherwise just wrote his name while he waited for his prey to show. A bit romanticized I know but, I still wonder who the first people were to decide that symbols should have a constant meaning that everyone could recognized.

[@Doug-h2z]

Of the two I'd think that Cuneiform was a more efficient script at least for transcription, also it's alphabet was used for other contemporary languages not something Hieroglyphics could claim.

[@vonbennett6545]

I find it interesting that even in the Bible Egypt was the place to go. Abraham lived in Ur but moved to Khemet. Seems like ancient Greeks & even Sumerians(Abraham) were more impressed by Khemet. At least more drawn to it.

[@LuisAldamiz]

The so-called Vinca script (a diverse array of likely ancient writings from the Balcans) is older, dated to as early as the 6th millenium BCE (Dispilio tablet). The Iberian script (or a primitive form of it) may have been used as early as the 4th millennium BCE, what competes with both Sumerian and Egyptian writing systems in terms of antiquity, vide: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/09/chalcolithic-iberian-script.html

[@HistorywithCy]

You know, I want to do a video on the Vinca culture and other areas of southeastern Europe, just haven't got around to researching the topic in depth. Recently I got a book on Lepenski Vir from a used book shop and thumbed through that...fascinating stuff that I need to research more! Thanks for watching!

[@LuisAldamiz]

@@HistorywithCy - Lepenski Vir is cool but it's hardly related to the Neolithic cultures of the area which (arguably) first developed writing of some sort. They seem to be even unrelated to local Paleolithic and represent some sort of intrusion from Ukraine rather. As for Vinca culture, the term "Vinca script" is somewhat of a misnomer or common place that doesn't really describes the whole phenomenon. As I said before, the oldest text is from Dispilo in West Macedonia, Greece, which AFAIK was culturally related to Vinca, however there are other texts further East in Bulgaria (Gradeshnitsa tablets), which is another quite different cultural group (most related to Central European "Danubian Neolithic" instead). Another important first development happening in the Balcans (same cultures approx.) was the first ever bronze (and quality tin bronze in fact, not that poisonous arsenic ersatz). In this case however, even if Vinca was involved too, most of it is found in Bulgaria. Vide: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/01/first-ever-bronze-was-smelt-in-balcans.html Neolithic Bulgaria was quite close to achieving all civilization traits: advanced metallurgy, writing, even monarchy (Varna burials) were present. Urbanization was however less advanced as far as I can tell. Critical here is the Karanovo Tell of NW Thrace, whose thick stratigraphy encompasses all pre-Indoeuropean periods: early (Vasconic) Neolithic (red-beige painted pottery), middle (Tyrsenian, Vinca-like) Neolithic (black-beige painted pottery) and late Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Bronze (Vasconic) Danubian-derived and Cucuteni-related Neolithic. It's a complicated subject because it's prehistory and lacks any obvious relation to later history (the flood... erm, the Indoeuropeans... flattened it all), unlike what happens in Egypt and nowadays also in Mesopotamia, where late prehistory is largely just the prelude of known history. But if you truly want to get into it, I strongly advise to dig into all the region, notably also Bulgaria and Greece. Cucuteni further north (Romania-Moldova-Ukraine) is also fascinating and is somewhat related to the cultures of Bulgaria but is more a peripheral story relative to the Balcans, where some of the most important advances of Humanity may have happened first (and maybe spread from there in a refugee scatter after the invasion by the Indoeuropeans).

[@AGS363]

I think it is rather ridiculous to argue if one or the other civilization discovered writing a few decades earlier than the other. Both had their own systems that worked well for them. However, everyone who disagrees...good luck convincing the Chinese to step back. Because this debate is going to be heated and nasty.

[@brettmatthews8061]

Chinese and Mayan are very different writing systems, all inscribed on different media. Could it be that many societies reach a certain level of urbanization and centralized state control and if the pressures towards scale and hierarchy continue, necessity becomes the mother of invention?

[@Lufe6301]

Great information. You would think if (either) of the two societies were aware of, or copying the others need for writing there would have been some similarities between the two. This seems to be the case in other parts of the world where civilizations near each other may have different languages but use a base system to write the words they use.

[@ancientsitesgirl]

I just watched, brilliant!❤

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks! By the way, Dynasty XIII coming up, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@derfret1365]

Imo it's pretty much Impossible that hieroglyphs were inspired by cuneiform. To write cuneiform, you just have to grab some clay and a stick with edges and you start writing. Once you have learned the writing system, you can use it pretty much whereever you want. Hieroglyphs on the other hand are either written on papyrus or artistically worked into stone. One prerequisites an industry to produce papyrus and ink, the other requires not only the knowledge of hieroglyphs but also the skill to work the stone, and of course much more time. So if the egyptians got the idea of writing from cuneiform, why wouldn't they also have created a system that works on clay, rather than the strenuous system they used instead? It just doesn't make sense

[@ArturHolanda91]

You speak Portuguese, nice! Greetings from a Brazilian viewer.

[@magd4570]

Chinese pictorial script is the oldest and then the Harappa scipt is next, after Sumeria etc.

[@vidren_14]

My dear, history has changed, read the new findings and research about the 15,000-year-old civilization of Jirofft Kerman and be amazed and know that Iraq has been created for 80 years based on the politics and behind the scenes of world powers. The capital of Iraq takes its name from the land of Iran, there is a secret about Iran that is hidden from the people and the mainstream media is boycotting it, Iran has been named in history as the Jirofft of the earth and the land of God, in Iran Kings are mentioned as cosmic beings who came from the galaxy to rule the earth. A legendary and ancient city is named Arta, which the Sumerians call a city that existed in ancient times, and this is the Jirofft civilization.

[@Emcee_Squared]

Regardless of which came first, it is truly fascinating that both of these first writing systems developed roughly at around the same time. Is that a coincidence or is there some kind of influence from one culture to the other?

[@HistorywithCy]

I personally think they developed independently of each other, but there are many who believe one of them (mostly the Sumerians) influenced the other. Thanks for watching and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@Emcee_Squared]

@@HistorywithCy wow its crazy to think there was hundreds of thousands of years of human history and all of the sudden two writing systems develop at around the same time! Its kind of mind blowing.

[@HistorywithCy]

@@Emcee_Squared It is!

[@empireofengland6039]

Easy Latin and Cyrilic writing came from Greek,Greek from Pinecia,and they got it from Egypt. That's all. However Sumerians also invated their writing system we don't use it. There is no much material for long video,so I don't know why youtube recomended it

[@CharlesOffdensen]

Very, very rarely in history do people re-invate writing. It doesn't matter if the Egyptian hieroglyphs don't look like the cuneiform. Two things are clear, there was influence from Shumer in from of trading. The idea of writing is hard to come by. We also know HOW the Sumer cuneiform evolved from a much earlier proto-writing system, that existed for thousands of years before true writing was invented. The Kish-tablets can already be considered writing. So this is no question for me. Just like almost anything else, the Sumerians were the inventors.

[@Hfil66]

I would guess that given the differences they were developed independently. The thing that I feel has not been adequately addressed is how written grammar developed, because it is the advent of grammar that to my mind distinguishes a mere recording system from a full blown written language.

[@HistorywithCy]

Interesting points. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@bugsytv6852]

was hoping it would be an ancient history on the Chaldeans 😢.. everyone leaves Chaldeans out. the bible mentions the Chaldeans by saying “ Babylon the pride and glory of the Chaldee’s “ .. great stuff though.

[@incasolja1]

One of the examples of cuneiform presented in this video looked auspiciously like the us flag. I looked it up and the one glyph that resembles the one i saw in this video means “house” kinda interesting. Coincidence? The eight pointed glyph means “god or heaven” and it became the symbol of ishtar and inanna who were godesses of sex among other things and would be the parallel to the morning store venus in greek and roman religions and then later lucifer in christianity who would the adopt the eight pointed star as their own symbol (the chi roe symbol originally but then intersected with a horozontol cross for obv purposes). So who knows

[@andybeans5790]

I wonder if one could have inspired the other without any direct influence? If you were a trader and a rich foreign trader explained how they "tagged" their goods and recorded inventories using marks representing the items so they could keep track, how difficult would it be to create your own tags/symbols? I don't have a horse in the race, whoever was first has my thanks because I love reading

[@gracegg5485]

you can thank the Egyptians for the reading and letters since the alphabet developed from their writings. the cuniform didn't develop to survive todays writing

[@andybeans5790]

@@gracegg5485 the symbols used are irrelevant in my view

[@gracegg5485]

@@andybeans5790 it was the blueprint for the alphabet of today. I think its relevance is highly underestimated. we can also thank them for the 12-month calendar and the 24-hour day cycle. there are many things used in ancient Egypt that the Sumerians haven't really utilized as much. if their civilization was important at all. we can say yes it was a great civilization, but its impact on the modern world is towered and meniscal when compared to that of ancient egypt.

[@ian6796]

@@gracegg5485 The sexagesimal system we use today came from mesopotamia, not from egypt.

[@nadineodil7060]

my opinion is they probably attained writing simultaneously just as humans across the earth evolved simultaneously. Could one have gotten the original idea from one another , who knows…they are so different that no matter the first picture or writing both cultures developed their own

[@sidjoosin6549]

I want to add that as TCP/IP protocol did not appear by itself slowly forming by thousands generations in different places - so is Writing. it is purely intented artificial invention, that can be copied, modified, forgotten and changed but can not emerge from nothing, it is invented thing. and I know 0 tradition which doubted that inventor was someone other than Hermes/Tot/Idris/Enoch and ofcourse Egyptians knew that Tot is named Hermes by Greeks and Greeks knew he named Enoch by Israelites, etc, so there is consensus about invention of writing and it's inventor (despite all effort to erase his name from history, while most time in history volume of Corpus Hermetica was ≈ 1/2 of all written text )

[@f.j282]

Eyjept was the first before summer destructions.

[@teteu12345]

3500 a.c 3200 a.c egypt

[@madderhat5852]

Have they done any archaeological digs on Sesame Street?

[@HistorywithCy]

Not to my knowledge but it'd be interesting to watch if they did! "A is for archaeology..."

[@nimmira]

by the way, didn't they also discover some early writing samples in China that date to ca. 7000 B.C.? (or I could be mixing up with something else?)

[@HistorywithCy]

I know there is something about oracle bones from I think the Shang Dynasty, but I'm not sure if there is a consensus on how old they are. Would be something interesting to look into. Thanks for watching!

[@nimmira]

@@HistorywithCy Still waiting for stuff about China - you promised 😉

[@markwagdyel-magrisy6620]

@@HistorywithCy The Oracle bones date back to 1200 B.C. but I guess he's talking about Jiahu symbols which date back to 6000B.C. They are very similar to later chinese writings, some historians consider an undeciphered ancient Chinese script similar to Vinça script in Europe (5500 B.C)

[@Zebred2001]

What was called "Neken" in ancient Egyptian - Hierakonpolis or the Narmer palette?

[@blain20_]

Writing was invented before Egypt and Sumer existed.

[@jag0937eb]

I think ancient egyptians communicated by various farting noises. If they ran out of bottom wind, they could not speak. Because of that high fibre diet was very important to them.

[@ebbo9152]

Not funny

[@jag0937eb]

@@ebbo9152 lol

[@freefall9832]

Funny!

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

Cuneiform is pronounced "cu-nay-if-orm", not "coony-form". {:o:O:}

[@mlys7184]

Ladies and gents... the village idiot has entered the chat

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah I just picked that up too... I say it properly in every other video, don't know why I pronounced it that way here. Thanks for watching, appreciate it!

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

@@HistorywithCy 🙂

[@freefall9832]

It's fine, it's pretentious to make it a issue. Some people are hung up on Neanderthal, I know the Germans want everyone to use a t not th, silly

[@belovelyloveofgod]

SARGON TELLS US SO.🌹☀️🔥❤️🕊️✝️⚡

[@bkohatl]

I give credit to the Egyptians for developing their own civilization. Europeans 150 years ago, said Egyptian Civilization came out of Europe or Mesopotamia. American Black leaders say it came from Nubia/Sudan. All of them were WRONG. Egyptians should be proud it is their civilization that they built. That said, Sumeria was, 50 to 100 years, minimum, ahead of Egypt, 100's of years ahead of Europe and China.

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

The Vinca Culture invented writing much earlier than both of them

[@channel_archistoriac]

This is how faraway the researchers of Sumer and those of Egypt are. Both are calling their culture the most ancient. In the modern historiography the Sumerians are represented as the owners of the oldest writing system although Sumerians are dated 2700 BC whereas even much more advanced hieratic script is dated to 3500 BC. So, why the hell do they call Ancient Sumerian writing system the oldest. That is such a mess in historiography 😂😂😂😂

[@harwn999]

They developed on their own and until a historian, archeologist, or linguist show a suemrian tablet with true writing that isn’t “proto writing” that isn’t giving substance grammar and isn’t just for an accounting system but not conveying thought. They never show and have yet to show the Sumerian text that supposedly dates to 3500 BCE. The Kish tablet only has proto writing, he isn’t conveying thought, Egypt tomb UJ is clearly conveying thought on the tags (Buto etc). And they can’t truly dare the true writing either based on recent scholastic sources. Until they find a suemrian true writing artifact then they should never place it ahead of Egypt until evidence is found. There are many biases, narratives and agendas in the academic world.

[@anthonyoctaviano9055]

No mention of Baybayin whatsoever... which is the original 17 letters that Cadmus brought to the middle East before any of these cuneiforms were invented and was possibly even the very source of it.

[@TheTrekkie12]

i mean seeing how writing developed separately in at least mesopotamia, china, and mesoamerica i would say its very likely that its convergent evolution. there may have been borrowings (or sharings) of the concept of writing things down and the importance of doing so, but i don't think the scripts are related at all. as for which came first...why can't it have been concurrent? not everything is a race

[@Paulftate]

howdy,,howdy from Virginia

[@rocketraccoon1976]

I've watched the History Channel, and I think it was ancient aliens that gave writing to us. 👽📜

[@uptheblues1875]

That thumbnail map looks like it's India where the Arabian peninsula should be. Pretty cool

[@HistorywithCy]

Haha taking a second look at it, you're right it does. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@uptheblues1875]

@@HistorywithCy glad to hear you got more stuff coming. Love your ancient Egypt series. I hope you'll continue it all the way till the Roman annexation. I feel like Ptolemaic Egyptian history is scarce on KZbin (except Cleopatra of course).

[@henriner]

Cuneiform and hieroglyphs are definitely not related, but I think that cuneiform is older

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks for your comment and for watching!

[@henriner]

@@HistorywithCy All my pleasure

[@degarpaykararyan3140]

The answer is difficult

[@HistorywithCy]

Agreed!

[@hinduswastika9754]

Lord Ram was born 1.2 Million years ago in treta yuga

[@IosifStalin2]

When did classical/ standard Egyptian hieroglyphics first appear?

[@IosifStalin2]

When was it standardised?

[@HistorywithCy]

I want to say some of the basic ones during the 1st Dynasty, and then many more were added Dynasties II - IV. I need to check to confirm though. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned!

[@JimEwing516]

If you read David Rohl's books, notably "Legend: the Genesis of Civilization", there's a pretty convincing case for the Sumerians conquering the natives in what became Egypt. The early Egyptian myths and legends seem to refer back to Sumer.

[@blain20_]

David is awesome. The Egyptians did come from Sumer. There is a video on here where David shows evidence.

[@HistorywithCy]

Interesting, never read it I'll see if I can get a copy. Thanks for the suggestion, appreciate it!

[@husambotros3958]

This an easy one for me.. Mesopotamia is first all the time LOL .. i think of it this way 1.we had more complex trading network and record keeping hence the necessity of a writing system very early on 2. Cunieform produced far more in literature and everyday life than anywhere else in antiquity. Meaning they really meant business early on and pictographs could be much older developed anyway.

[@HistorywithCy]

Great points, though one could argue that Egypt produced just as much or even more literature after 2000 BC. Middle Egyptian literature is truly amazing. Perhaps not as old as some of the Neo-Sumerian literature, but just as rich and fascinating. Anyway, thanks for watching!

[@omegaroyal]

But does Babbel teach Egyptian hieroglyphs?

[@HistorywithCy]

Oh how awesome it would be if it did!

[@beachboy0505]

Good video Egypt hieroglyphs; Definitely pictures Sumer: definitely writing ✍️ It takes the spoken word by speaking 🗣 and codes into writing ✍️. These lines transformed into Phonecian to Latin , also various other Semitic and indo Aryan sanscrit writing ✍️ Cat 🐈‍⬛ in Egypt Cat =cat in real writing ✍️

[@christineyoung8345]

Talk of "inventing" writing makes no sense. There are more than one independent writing systems. You can talk about which language was first developed. But what's the point of the competition?

[@rafaels.3969]

The word "without" in Latin?

[@zumurudlilit]

As a Polish person - no way :))) my language is a nightmare incarnate :)😆

[@serserrano1]

My conclusion is more along the lines of how badly the Arab Muslim expansion influenced Egypt. Egypt was such an amazing civilization prior to the Muslim expansion by the Arabs.

[@TheLastOutlaw289]

They put Sumeria first to agree and support the Biblical fake story😂. I am almost certain that if humans evolved first i. Africa then Africa would likely develop writing first.

[@yaruqadishi8326]

Both same time and sometimes Sumer first and other Egypt first.

[@user-wp8yx]

No way! The real story is some kids wrote some crap on a rock and it was preserved. Meanwhile, all the brilliant stuff I wrote on wood in the Paleolithic is gone. Just my luck.

[@Danetto]

im more curious about WHO invented the writing. kemet said toth did that... but how can that be true? xd

[@stefanf922]

When someone unearths a writing tablet that predates both Egyptian and Sumer, the argument will be settled.

[@M4x77]

En-Mer-Kar = Narmer = Nimrod

[@nadiewn7]

You tend to go with most historians on a lot of subjects why not on writing, the historians say the conform system and writing was the oldest 🙄 You must give the Mesopotamia its credits. The influence of this civilization we still see it today and it effects on our life number, hours ,Horoscope, mathematics, and the origin of the three biggest monotheistic religions ,and most of the mythology of today, maps ,trigonometry, etc I'm not underestimate other cultures and civilization but we must but ever thing in the right place. For know at least.

[@HistorywithCy]

Hi, thanks so much for your insightful comment, really appreciate it! Actually, most of the videos on this channel are dedicated to ancient Mesopotamia and in those I've pointed out many times that writing first developed there, but there are strong arguments for Egypt too, which is what I wanted to point out in this video. In the end, I pretty much leave it to the viewer to look into it more given the evidence and not support one or the other, at least in this video. But in the Sumerians video, I make it pretty clear about how writing most likely originated in Mesopotamia. Thanks so much for watching, really appreciate it!

[@nadiewn7]

@@HistorywithCy The Egyptians civilization have it great sheer of exposure to all the world 🌎 and it's due it is great civilization one of the oldest and greatest, but The Mesopotamia know start to have that publicity ,the world now starts to know about it after the new discoverys and restart of excavation missions , the public did not know any thing a bout it for along time ،all of it's loked in the corridors of specialized historical and universitys .