Ancient Faith Today Live - Is Orthodoxy too "Eastern" for the U.S.?

America is noticing Orthodox growth, but not everyone is happy about it. Protestant online apologists are saying that Orthodoxy doesn't fit Western culture and people are just attracted to the Church's aesthetics.
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Ancient Faith Today Live - Is Orthodoxy too "Eastern" for the U.S.?
#orthodoxchurch #easternorthodox #orthodoxy #ancientfaith

[@esthercollins4215]

I have been an Apostolic Pentecostal for decades, there are a lot of dedicated believers, lovely, godly, separate from the world, people. I have been looking at Orthodoxy recently for it’s Truth. I want to spend eternity with God and while here be transformed. I felt I knew the way, I never knew Orthodoxy existed. I am truly inspired.

[@AncientFaithMinistries]

What is Apostolic Pentecostal? I have never heard of this expression of Christianity

[@esthercollins4215]

The Apostolics believe that Peter preached the first message for the church after receiving the Holy Spirit, and that Acts 2:38 is foundational. Corresponding to the new birth that the Lord teaches in John 3:5. Water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit.

[@Jeem196]

Excellent talk. The West's fatal flaw is over-intellectualism, as you said, and making their religion about empiricism, analysis, logical categories, and worst of all, speculative theology. Whereas Orthodoxy has always been a lived experience, which the Oriental churches agree with us on.

[@betsyvines8904]

Amen! Axios Father! Keep up the Good work!

[@OldManWembly]

I was raised Pentecostal (AOG), served in a non-denom church for awhile, and eventually was received into the Orthodox church nearly 11 years ago in February of 2014. Granting that things may be very different now, at the time I converted to Orthodoxy I was one of those "young men" that I suppose they're talking about in that first clip you played. What's funny is that absolutely none of the things they said apply whatsoever to my own conversion experience. I wasn't drawn by "men", nor was it anything to do with "masculinity", nor was it anything to do with families, or even anti-modernity. I came home to the Orthodox church because I grew up in a world where church history wasn't talked about. I knew nothing at all about the history of Christianity pre 1950s. I hadn't learned anything about theology. My own intellectual curiosity was actively discouraged, and I was told repeatedly that trying to learn anything about history or theology was something that would "quench the Spirit". Well, eventually my curiosity led me into learning history anyway. And learning history brought me to Orthodoxy. That was really it. Walking into a church for the first time in my life and realizing that the worship wasn't about me, it wasn't about my experience, it wasn't about anything other than doing something to serve God in the way that He told us to do it, that was an absolutely profound experience. The trouble with the "Western Man" is that he seems to think that everything is about himself. Orthodoxy says, "No, it's not." That's what brings people in.

[@AncientFaithMinistries]

Your closing statement rings true for a lot of recent converts.

[@YannisH]

The more eastern the better! I am a recent convert. We are a mixed culture household but mostly Middle eastern background. Catechism answers all my questions. I converted because I saw and read the truth. The evidence was in the order, peace,love and saints of correct Christian teaching.

[@Sarah-84716]

Man that video is so frustrating. I almost rejected the orthodox faith based on this individualistic thinking that oh it's not my style or I don't fit in. Then I realized how much more reverance there is in orthodox worship because it's truly about God. Style is about the individual. So much gray area is filled in through the orthodox catechism and I've learned more about humility and how to become more like God in my first year (1 yr as of Feb 11th) being orthodox and as a catechuman than I did in my last 11 years as a protestant. Its so easy to plateau in protestantism. You learn so much more in the orthodox church through church history and understanding early church culture. I was a protestant 15 years but man those protestant clips really fire me up because that's how I almost missed the fulness of the faith. Once you've experienced and understand orthodox worship you can never go back.

[@mayaday8538]

Did you struggle with fear of any of the traditions orthodox do. I'm big on germs and kissing icons, the priest hand, sharing the spoon at communion etc just terrify me and I don't understand why there are never any room for adjustments in certain circumstances when it comes to orthodox sometimes? I'm scared to join.

[@Sarah-84716]

​@mayaday8538 there is definitely a learning curve on that journey from protestantism to orthodoxy, and I had some major growing pains. I can only share what our priest has taught us in regards to these things since I'm so new myself. Kissing icons and the priests hand are not required even if a lot of others do it. You can choose not to do these things if you are concerned about germs. I have a friend who is very worried about germs and mentioned these same things but he is moving forward as a catechuman and plans to just not do these things. I wouldn't imagine that you would choose to not take communion, however, unless you're sick. I do worry about germs but I remember that our priest teaches us to take the soaked bread with our teeth. So, minimal surface area touches the spoon. You can also try to get closer to the front of the line during communion so less people are in front of you, though kids are always first. My mentor told me that antiochian churches are intentional about pouring Communion into the mouth of parishioners when I asked her about this during a period where RSV was going around our Parish and my daughter was 3 months. She said in the past parishioners only took communion a couple times a year so to skip when we're concerned about sickness isn't a big deal. We chose to not go to church those weeks due to my daughter. The church also makes exceptions on certain things where appropriate. For example when I was pregnant I wasn't expected to fast. You may also have a heart change later as God grows you the more you learn. I have had a heart change about icons and head coverings now and freely particlate with both. But im glad i allowed myself time to get comfortable with these things. Some churches are more traditional than others as well. Sometimes all women are asked to wear head coverings but other times its optional. I go to an OCA church and its optional. The best thing you can do is go to the closest orthodox church near you and share your concerns with the priest there and talk to those already attending. Double check everything I or anyone else says with a priest. I hope this is helpful. I hardly feel qualified to give advice at all since I'm so new. I can say it's one of the best decisions ive made. God bless you on your spiritual journey!

[@jonboatwright7777]

Wonderful topic and presentation. Well, this phronema of Orthodoxy is certainly something we need to schooled on. Not catechized. Is it the Eastern mind or something other? I do believe that many of the ills of the Western Protestants is that very phronema. After 12 years I’m trying still to acquire it. Blessings Father.

[@Preserved-Faith-33]

I think the fact they haven’t responded to the thousands of corrections says a lot more than them saying something. Maybe it’s time they accept that this is just something bigger than what they can stop, maybe it’s an act of God himself that so many people are going to orthodoxy.

[@amustardseed6748]

I am a person who comes from a protestant background (Evangelical and Baptist, with a mother from a charismatic evangelical background and a father who was raised primarily in a Roman Catholic environment alongside a Baptist environment that would later be taken over with Skepticism towards liturgy, and apostolic traditions exclusivity) and is inquiring about the Orthodox faith. I wish to not be attracted by the beauty, and its partner the theology for if that was it. I will leave due to the hardness of my heart. My background has taught me to become skeptical of both Intellectual (Mental) and Emotional guidance, namely that which is called, “Spiritual”. This is why my biggest reason for orthodoxy is not comfort, but a clear guidance by an actual spirit that leads you. A faith that actually involves fruitful questions, struggles, and doubts instead of pointless suffering for the sake of a lie. “Come for the beauty, stay for the truth.” and, “Let's never, let's never think that our worship is simply a matter of culture, it’s simply a matter of taste, or that orthodox Christianity does not fit the Western mind. Every person who is born on this earth. Every person who is born on this earth is born with the image of god in them to grow in the likeness of god, and they need the revelation of god in Christ.”

[@gobnatav]

My husband and I have recently been talking about this topic. Our hope is that there will be a unified Orthodox church in America someday that focuses on cultivating the room necessary for what it means to be born and raised American in this age. I do believe the ethnic jurisdictions are causing potential harm to our unity as a nation. When non-denominational or even non-spiritual Americans pass by an Orthodox church building that highlights an ethnic community in its name or title, whatever curiosity they may have had gets stifled by the thought that such a place is designated for, and caters to, a specific community and heritage and culture, with services being given in foreign languages, rather than their native English tongue.

[@PassifloraCerulea]

I don't how you'd classify me, but this is definitely true for me. If your church is identifed as "*Russian* Orthodox" or "*Serbian* Orthodox" (for example), I do worry whether I'd be welcome as a non-ethnic. It's only by listening to online programs like this one that is starting to correct that. And the "Eastern" in "Eastern Orthodox" doesn't have a negative connotation at all, it mostly makes it extra clear that we're talking non-Protestant and non-Catholic (see what I did there?)

[@stevecochran9078]

The truth only hurts when it should.

[@Stevepsych22]

I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy about 8 or 9 years ago. My observation is that many Americans, especially Evangelicals, seem to be trying to turn Eastern Orthodoxy into something like trying to make it into its own image. Apparently eternally pragmatist and utilitarian, they seem to want everything to adapt to their ways. Making small changes to the liturgy, etc. I think retaining the term "Eastern" helps us retain what the Eastern spirituality contributes to faith. It is not trapped in some kind of concretizing of its name. I think we should pause and ask what we are joining up with. This doesn't mean we adopt eastern cultural norms and lifestyles. The Eastern ideas when it comes to spirituality can plainly be seen in works like Lossky's, "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church." I think we need to evaluate what the Church brings to us not what we want it to be.

[@campomambo]

I notice people will occasionally complain about not being Greek or Russian or eastern. I have never heard anybody object to going to an Antiochian because they aren’t Antiochian or Syrian or Arabic. I think all the complaints are just people objecting to things that sound foreign.

[@OrthodoxPhilip]

Greek, Antiochian, and Slavic Orthodox Churches in the west are already western Orthodox Churches. The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is for everyone and is not in any way essentially eastern. And for those whole love western Orthodox style, they should love Greek and Slavic Churches because they look more like pre-schism western churches than the average Catholic and Protestant churches today do.

[@Jeem196]

I agree. Antiochian especially has become a great hub for converts and cradle alike, rivaling the OCA in that endeavor. The Greek churches might be Greek primarily, but Greeks themselves have become part and parcel of this country. They aren't seen as foreign easterners.

[@revelation20232]

​@@Jeem196 my Greek parish is at least 1/3rd converts including our priest and the altar servers. Many of us converts are former Roman Catholics but there's a few former Prots too. As a non-Greek the cultural stuff that's specific to Greece doesn't mean much to me but ultimately its a very small part of the life of the Church, very very rarely does it come up, and it has 0 effect on the worship services. The actual Greeks at the church never make us non-Greeks feel like outsiders at all.

[@RicoMnc]

Western culture has been nominally Christian at best, and much less Christian now. Of course I was not converted by "intellectual argument". I was called, "Come, taste and see.." I did, and converted. Orthodox Christianity is not primarily an intellectual construct. It may be presented and defended with rational and reasonable arguments, but the arguments are not what construct and establish Orthodox Christian faith.

[@PaulSmall422]

I never use the term 'Eastern' in discussion the non-Orthodox. I don't ever call them 'Western'. That is, I believe, a ghettoizing trend which isolates rather than leaves the door open for unity. Certainly Orthodoxy has come West geographically but that would actually never have been necessary if Rome had not gone into schism so long ago and be estranged from the Catholic truth held in Orthodoxy then and maintained now. I was born into the Roman faith, left in my teens, went into Anglicanism for 30 years and then came home to Orthodoxy. So I've seen all three from inside. I can see where non-Orthodox have gone off the Catholic rails and while I can also clearly state those differences, I do find most disputants simply repeat their dogmas as if in stone and never stop to actually defend them. This happened this morning, in fact. They don't know where their beliefs arise, they don't know how Scripture relates to the Church, they don't know what actually constitutes worship or idolatry or eve the distinction between worship and veneration. That is the principal chasm between non-Orthodox and Orthodox. It is not a West/East divide in any material or theoretical sense, but a variation due to separation and deafness.

[@stevecochran9078]

I think there are too many still stuck in the Cold War years.

[@zachpatterson434]

I converted almost exclusively for doctrinal reasons. I wanted to be orthodox and it became increasingly clear that to do that I had to become Orthodox. I could see wrong doctrine affecting those around me and I could no longer ignore it.

[@thewaterguy17]

While I absolutely think that we should make a point of avoiding the term "Eastern" Orthodox I find in my personal experience that if I just say I'm "an Orthodox Christian" people tend to get very confused very quickly on what I am saying as...well, all Christians would say they are orthodox. Still trying to figure out pragmatically how to handle that particular issue. It's a real shame, because the fact that Orthodox Christianity ended up primarily in the Eastern part of the world is entirely an accident of history.

[@HomoEucharistica]

What makes things even more confusing is that some people (at least where I live) use the term "Greek Catholic" when they talk about "Eastern" Orthodoxy, while for many others "Greek Catholic" refers to Roman Catholics who are Greek (the Uniates or Greek converts to Catholicism, basically)... So perhaps "Orthodox Catholic" would be the most fitting concept - if we forget how polemic it sounds

[@PassifloraCerulea]

Speaking as an outsider (grew up in the southwestern US in the almost-cult "Christian Science"), "Eastern Orthodox" is the most clearly differentiated term. A big problem is that (Eastern) Orthodoxy was until recently almost invisible, and my only exposure is still online. I can't think of a single Orthodox church I've laid eyes on anywhere I've lived. Worse, I didn't understand "Catholic" properly at all. The way US culture uses the word I assumed it was just a synonym for the Roman church. So unfortunately "Orthodox Catholic" is quite confusing whereas "Orthodox" is mostly clear.

[@acekoala457]

Even the "Western Rite" is more Eastern than America is comfortable with tbh.

[@HomoEucharistica]

Well, taken that "Western Rite" was established on the Eastern shore of the Ocean... and even further to east

[@tpaege1]

NoN OCC here.. Getting to a eastern fronima is a huge lift for most ppl educated in the west in the scholastic tradition. Most don't even know how steeped in western tradition they are

[@ivanipatov6559]

Historically christianity came from the east

[@johnrep9690]

I grew up in an ethnic parish, not long ago, I visited an OCA church which was very American. I felt weird that there were no ethnic people there. Not bad at all, just strange from what I am used to. 😊

[@BiblicalHistoricalOrthodox]

Thank you for this episode. Should the music style of hymns and chants (byzantine) be retained for the American people ?

[@zacharyfreeman5237]

Americans, like all the other Orthodox cultures, should feel free to put their own "flavor" on it while staying true to the Church tradition. There's some videos of Appalachian-style Orthodox chanting on KZbin that totally nails it and is absolutely beautiful.

[@acekoala457]

Byzantine and Slavonic Music both come from the "Working Songs" that existed at the time and have been Transformed into Holy Music. I don't see why this couldn't be done with Traditionally American Working songs, especially those out of Appalachia.

[@Jeff-hb1qq]

My question is? how would Christ Jesus answer this question?😊

[@daynawyatt2726]

I think it’s a non issue, you are either orthodox or not , people are people , there will be differences ,why separate yourself by identifying yourself as somehow less or more orthodox because of your culture ? How about we just appreciate the differences as unique and beautiful , and orthodox

[@audio2664]

No not to eastern. No

[@tpaege1]

As a protestant it gets old to see how many times OCC clerics dump on the reformation. Time and space prohibit a reply but it's 500 yrs past your not going to undo it. Where would you have us go from the Rcc you complain about the schismatic church but seems you want the reformers to stay in its error you need better answers and less complaints.. Seriously

[@AncientFaithMinistries]

You have a point in saying that there's no undoing it. The question is where do we go from here.

[@tpaege1]

@AncientFaithMinistries that's a discussion worth having.. Accepting that there are some points that are hard stops but also knowing that there are places to at least say I can appreciate some other places..

[@ebahapo]

To the Orthodox, the Reformation was kicked off nigh a millennium ago.

[@hannahbaker3080]

Can we PLEASE get a USA patriarch or even North American patriarch!!!!!!!!!

[@acekoala457]

We don't deserve a Patriarch. America should have a united Synod first.

[@hannahbaker3080]

@ yes, we do.

[@acekoala457]

​@@hannahbaker3080 No. We don't. A Patriarch traditionally served at the side of the Monarch or was the head of a Historically Apostolic Synod. Being Autocephalous didn't require a Patriarch, the Cypriot Church didn't when it was founded and still doesn't. America needs a united Synod first. Then there can be discussions about a Patriarch, but it is not a necessary office.

[@hannahbaker3080]

@ I was saying yes we do in relation to the synod. But also, someday, may the Lord bless us with a patriarch all in good time.

[@konradkoeppe2840]

Ancient faith and its move away from the faith is the issue

[@AncientFaithMinistries]

Can you share more about this? What is it that we've published that you take issue with specifically?

[@konradkoeppe2840]

@AncientFaithMinistries There has been several priests who were kicked off ancient faith who did nothing wrong. Your ministry has had several guests who were definately not orthodox spreading non orthodox views. I and several others tried contacting those supposedly in charge. Nothing waa done. Non orthodox views were supported. How can we consider it an orthodox ministry anymore? Your not under any jurisdiction.

[@AncientFaithMinistries]

@ you are correct that in the past we have had non-Orthodox Christians as guests on shows. They weren't invited to discuss their beliefs though and as far as we are aware, our show hosts did not "support" their views in so far as they disagreed with the Orthodox faith. If they did - then this is something that we'd absolutely need to know about. There is an email on the homepage on this KZbin channel under channel info. If you find a piece of our content that is supporting some other faith - please send it to that email, because we would need to do something about it. We are in fact under a jurisdiction. This ministry operates with the blessing of the Antiochian archdiocese and we answer to Metropolitan Saba of the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America.

[@frthomassoroka329]

@konradkoeppe2840 your assertion about AFM is not only factually incorrect, it's absurd. No priest was "kicked off" AFR unless a priest was deposed or disciplined. I have been with AF nearly from its inception. I've seen priests and podcasters come and go. Priests may leave for various reasons. Baseless false claims about Ancient Faith being "heretical" are laughable since I'm one of the most traditional Orthodox priests in America. Having a "non-Orthodox" guest on a show signifies what exactly? What was the context of the show? What was the purpose of having that guest? I would urge critics to be objective about such matters and not simply destructive. Ancient Faith's strength is that it is a reliable source of Orthodox information in an increasingly chaotic online morass of information.

[@bobjenkins3rd]

I think they’re trying their best like everyone else and Fr Spyridon doing some clips on the channel is a welcome update. There needn’t be any conflict.

[@annabanana2623]

I love the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I am also interested in the Western Rite considering I was born Roman Catholic. I would love to see how that liturgy was revered before the great schism.