The BIG Problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame

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The Baseball Hall of Fame has a BIG problem. One-and-Done players are those who get on to a Hall of Fame ballot, but fall short of the 5% threshold required to stay on the ballot. Some of them, a lot of them, should be in the Hall themselves.
Chapters:
0:00 Edgar Martinez
3:40 Big Papi
5:48 Lance Berkman
9:56 Will Clark
14:22 Jim Edmonds
17:15 Kenny Lofton
19:51 David Cone
22:53 Joe Nathan
25:50 Lou Whitaker
31:40 Solutions?
Music Playlist: • The Baseball Hall of F...
‪@ludandschlattsmusicalempor6746‬

[@Chicago-ed1ns]

Mariano Rivera being the ONLY unanimous winner tells me all i need to know about this stupid HOF and its voters.

[@paleo704]

I believe it was Bill Conlin who refused to vote for Nolan Ryan and said he wasn’t a HOFer

[@Chicago-ed1ns]

@paleo704 ridiculous, Maddux was one of the best pitchers ever and he did it during the steroid era when everyone was juiced and he still didn't get 100%, stupid.

[@joemarshall4226]

Right on. Mariano was the greatest reliever ever, and the greatest pitcher inning for inning ever. His 205 career ERA+ is almost 50points higher than the next pitcher, who was Pedro last time I checked But he only pitched 1200 innings lifetime......Ryan, Seaver, Clemens, Neikro, Sutton.....all pitched about 5000 innings or more. You can't compare them! It's like giving a guy a unanimous vote because he was the greatest pinch hitter of all time.

[@CC-rb1yf]

Yes you're right. It is such a joke. Do some never vote for first ballot players since none of the originals got unanimous? Which is a whole other issue because who didn't vote Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson to hall of fame? But obvious players like Ted Williams, Aaron, Mays, Musial, etc weren't unanimous?

[@joemarshall4226]

@@CC-rb1yf The original hall was supposed to have ten players, but for some reason, it was decided to just go with five, then take the next five a year later….Hornsby, Eddie Collin’s, Grover Alexander, Cy Young and someone else.

[@luishumbertovega3900]

I went from Puerto Rico to Cooperstown for Edgar in July 2019. On Induction Day a family that flew from Seattle placed their seats near me, they wore Edgar jerseys and had signs celebrating his enshrinement. They were having a photo session and when the guy with the camera said Say Cheese I couldn't contain myself and said, "Hey, why not say Eeeeddddgarrrrrr !!!" It was magical !!! They laughed a lot and had a great time taking photos. Afterwards the father of the family came to me, addressed the Team Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 jersey and matching cap I was wearing, shook my hand and in a sort of emotional way said 'Thank You, for him, he saved baseball for us in Seattle'. Needless to say, I was so touched I couldn't utter a word. A moment I will never forget.

[@CSDonohue11]

That’s Dope All from ⚾️ Thee GREATEST SPORT EVER

[@jon-eriksuermann9844]

I prefer team Hall of Fames over the MLB HoF anyway. Jim Edmonds is in the Cardinals, Will Clark is in the Giants, etc. The fans and teams these players played for can ensure their careers are recognized and appreciated.

[@dnasty312]

Like Paul Konerko with the Sox

[@jon-eriksuermann9844]

@@dnasty312 exactly. I take it you’re a fan of him. Let’s say he does get in the hall one day you’ll hear him and the hall ridiculed for being the “hall of very good”. Personally that’s irritating.

[@Chck314]

right but Edmonds was CLEARLY batter than many who are in the HoF

[@bradgauldin8643]

Will Clark was so good. So so good. Just pure ball player.

[@quinn-tessential3232]

Yeah, well...the Milwaukee Brewers added that lying, cheating scum Ryan Braun to their "Wall of Honor." It wasn't just that Braun was suspended for PED use, casting a shadow of doubt over the legitimacy of his career numbers. Before his eventual suspension, Braun basically accused an innocent guy of tampering with his sample out of anti-Semitism when Braun knew full well that he was guilty. Where is the "honor" in falsely accusing an innocent man so as to BS your way out of a PED suspension? His presence on the Brewers Wall of Honor is a disgrace.

[@MC-be5gg]

I think the easiest change would be to get rid of the 10 vote limit. Either the players are good enough or not. It’s an arbitrary number that doesn’t accurately reflect the caliber of players the writers vote for. There shouldn’t be a limit on the hall of fame. Players are either good enough or not.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

I agree, a yes or no on everyone makes sense to me

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

But how many of the voters actually USE at or close to their max of ten checkmarks?

[@shanaeverowe9626]

I think the writers need to be held accountable for their votes. If you vote no, that's it your stuck voting no for him every year because again, the players numbers are not changing. I also think a rotation pool of writers should be used so that people don't do what those guys did to Griffey or Jeter.as for falling off the ballot, there should be a fan vote, pbly requiring a valid email address to prevent spamming, for players below a certain mark to get another year. The HOF is a museum, one for baseball fans. We should have a voice in this process somewhere

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

@@shanaeverowe9626 Actually there isn't any "no" votes as such...you're not checking yes or no for each player. It's more each player gets a checkmark (yes) or no checkmark (not a yes). If that makes sense.

[@shanaeverowe9626]

@@JohnSmith-zw8vp yes, I am saying the changes that need to happen. Get rid of the amount of vote per ballot, if they vote for someone to not get in, that's it. That voter can't change their mind because the players stats are not changing. Voters who have had their ballots leaked have voted years for or against a player then changed when they were close to either magic number. Either the 5 or the 75. It's gross and makes the hall feel like a joke. So many players that should be in are not even foot notes in history.

[@Katsos44]

When you hear the MF DOOM start up you know it’s about to really get going

[@ocoop]

don’t forget madlib :3 he made the beat

[@lukec6d9]

Madvillain

[@jjay__]

Rip david dumille

[@theworddistro9742]

Came here to say the same thing. Proper with the ALL CAPS too

[@fbistatmajor5918]

Daniel dumile

[@soapsatellite]

Honestly, the main that rubs me the wrong way about Hall of Fame voting is the way journeymen are treated, even when they have Hall of Fame stats. Like you gotta commit to one or two teams throughout your career or else you won't get in. It's like slut shaming for baseball.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

That’s one way to put it lol

[@selfdo]

Such a player gets JUDGED as either being egotistical, a "clubhouse cancer", or an "mercenary", always looking for the better deal. In the olden days of the game, players were routinely "robbed" by other teams, until the respective league presidents put a stop to it. Still, many independent minor league teams were raided by the "bigs". The same "sportswriter" who'd change newspapers or publishers in a "New Yawk minute" for a few extra shekels.

[@GOATexp]

“It’s like slut shaming for baseball” LMAO 😂 that’s wild af but accurate

[@Hoscue]

Not only that, but their qualifications seem to change every year. They also vote based on media relationships. Process needs an overhaul.

[@cococock2418]

Slut shaming occurs because being a slut is objectively negative behavior, as is being a journeyman that no one likes.

[@LoowheezeBreeze]

David Ortiz age 27 - retirement 1953 games, 8398 plate appearances Carlos Delgado age 24 - retirement 1953 games, 8397 plate appearances Their 162 game averages during their prime: Ortiz 100 runs, 43 doubles, 40 HR, 127 RBI, .290 AVG .386 OBP, .956 OPS, 148 OPS+, 4.1 WAR Delgado 101 runs, 40 doubles, 38 HR, 123 RBI, .283 AVG, .380 OBP, .937 OPS, 140 OPS+, 3.5 WAR One gets inducted in their first year of eligibility, the other fails to receive the necessary 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot

[@justinmailloux3799]

You can not tell the history of baseball without David Ortiz. His impact on the game and league was huge. He ranks 23rd all-time in RBIs, while Ortiz's .552 slugging percentage currently ranks 26th all-time with his .931 OPS ranking 38th. 541 regular season home runs ranks 17th all time. Ranks 12th all time in doubles. Tied 8th all time with extra base hits. So tell me how is the hall a joke?

[@LoowheezeBreeze]

@@justinmailloux3799 First off, you missed the entire point of my post... Secondly, I never gave an opinion on the legitimacy of the Hall of Fame, I just stated facts...

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

@@justinmailloux3799also failed a ped test and hung out every day with arod and Manny who were twice the player he was and didn't get in. Still a joke.

[@GOATexp]

Okay I see your point BUT have you considered that Delgado doesn’t have as cool of a nickname as Big Papi and didn’t play for a super historic franchise? Those are 2 pretty big blemishes on his record /sarcasm

[@ShellShockTay]

@@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507 His pfp says it all.

[@cracklecracklebaybay5612]

As a lifelong Mariner fan, and someone who grew up watching Edgar, seeing him get the HoF nod was so satisfying.

[@fortynights1513]

Edgar’s time on the ballot was quite a ride. One person in the media who deserves mention for making Edgar’s sabermetric case in those years is MLB Network’s Brian Kenny. Say what you want about him, but I don’t recall many media personalities outside of Seattle arguing for Edgar until he did (coincidentally enough around the time his percentages jumped).

[@J.C...]

Same. But I cried when Jr made it. NGL.

[@fortynights1513]

@@J.C...Ken Griffey Jr. made it, and I was proud to watch the induction on TV when he did. But everyone knew he was going to get in there on the first ballot without any debate. Edgar on the other hand belonged, but it took awhile for those who voted to be convinced since the case was more sabermetric in nature. In a way it did feel more special that Edgar made it too, since he went through the journey on the ballot that he did, and was initially viewed as borderline.

[@Wadatkuta_nagedu]

Glad someone FINALLY covered Clark.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Will the Thrill what a great ballplayer

[@naterosenbaum4830]

One of the all time great Giants

[@GizmoBeach]

Will Clark destroyed the Cubs in that 1989 Series. He had the best swing until Griffey Jr. came along...tied after that.

[@Wadatkuta_nagedu]

@@AndThatsBaseballhe played the game right, and even during the steroid era, he was still a clutch power hitter while hitting for average. Love that dude. You should check out his podcast with Eric Byrnes. If Ozzie wasn’t on the Veterans Committee I think we would get in.

[@Wadatkuta_nagedu]

@@GizmoBeachtied for sure. Not better not worse, both hit home runs while making it look effortless. A thing of beauty.

[@efrenvega8158]

To me, the biggest hipocrisy is to not vote for some "so-called" steroid guys based on hearsay, suspicion, assumption but no positive test, yet vote in a guy like Ortiz who DID test positive. That he did before it was "illegal" sure, but he CLEARLY cheated too.

[@Edit.575]

I’ve always said this. You’re 100% right. Ever since Ortiz got in I have looked at Baseball HOF differently. It’s the only sport that hates on it’s GOATs

[@lankyrob6369]

Thats a baseball and ethics problem... You have to punish the 'roiders. Enjoy their success... but in the end you cant get enshrined if you are tainted.

[@kevinbeazy]

It makes perfect sense actually

[@kevinbeazy]

@@lankyrob6369well said

[@wind_runner6836]

All roids people even speculated should be out there is integrity to this game I am sorry some don't have that same integrity. The vast majority of the speculation is legit known and credible. And the ones in shouldnt be.

[@JohnB.6251]

Yeah, you didn't mention Tony Oliva - Rookie of the year 1962, 3 time batting champion, gold glover, 8 time allstar, got 8 hits in a row in a one day double header, and was the first designated hitter to hit a home run as DH. Slightly shortened career with bad knees, played 14 years until 1976. One of the greatest pure hitters of all time.Took them an eternity until 2022 to vote him in via the Golden Era Committee. Greatfully, Tony still doing well and was able to speak at his induction in his 80s. BTW, he still supports my favorite local charity: Crescent Cove Children's Hospice and Respite Home. A fabulous human being. One of the greatest pure hitters of all time.... - John B.

[@CSDonohue11]

Well done 👍

[@JohnB.6251]

@@CSDonohue11 Thanks CS!

[@joemarshall4226]

Tony is a legit candidate , but his stats have a major flaw….. low OBP. He didn’t draw walks like he should have. That s the real reason he was by passed at first, along with the shortened career

[@kingoftickets]

We don’t know who all the PED players were and weren’t.

[@andrewsells3420]

Been an Astros fan my whole life, watching Berkman getting left off genuinely hurt ngl, he was a huge piece of our team for years and I wish he got more recognition.

[@erickennedy8534]

Berkman was better than that overrated Biggo.

[@twostop6895]

funny thing is Berkman could not win the World Series with the Astros but won it with the Cardinals in 2011, he even helped us in extra innings of the David Freese comeback in game 6

[@thareelhelloagain]

How does it feel to be a fan of the most fraudulent "championship" team of all time?

[@mediocregameplays6612]

@@erickennedy8534this has to be rage bait right? Right?

[@Theorpo]

​@@mediocregameplays6612it probably is (hopefully) but you would be surprised how many people still are butthurt after 7 years.

[@bob8776]

I think the Edmonds/Rolen debate shows that the difference between a great player and a HOF player isn’t a well defined line but rather a hazy gray area that is constantly expanding and contracting depending on how and what stats are valued

[@selfdo]

Rolen isn't HoF worthy, PERIOD. Hall of the damned good, but that's all.

[@bob8776]

I guess saying period in all caps means the conversation is over and everyone else is wrong 😂

[@sir.muffiniii7011]

@@selfdohow? He has 70 WAR, and all of his WAR stats are on par with other HOF 3rd baseman, and so is his HOF monitor, not to mention one of the greatest defensive third baseman ever, 7 all stars, won a World Series, 300 homers, 2000 hits, .285 BA, and at his peak he averaged 172 hits, 33 homers, 117 RBI, walked a decent amount, and had an OPS over .900 in his 7 year prime, that’s a HOFer to me

[@selfdo]

@@sir.muffiniii7011 Then Jeff Kent ought to have been a first ballot shoo-in. But there's no logic east of the Appalachians anymore.

[@sir.muffiniii7011]

@@selfdo Jeff Kent should’ve 100% been in the HOF, he has the most home runs out of any 2nd baseman ever

[@SomeGuyIan]

I feel like the one and out needs to be changed. Give them three years to fully determine if they belong. That would mean an increase of the percentage to stay on would also happen. Maybe have it at 10 or 15%. With the increase in the ballot names, some players may be off ballots. You mentioned Werth and Weaver getting in last years ballot even though they shouldn't. Those type of players could be one and done or removed from the ballot entirely. TLDR; Move the 5%(or more) cutoff to three years. If a player gets no votes in their 1st year, they are one and done.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Idk if a systemic change is needed as much as a change in how writers vote. Like I say at the end of the vid, they should be actually looking into every player's data and how it stacks up vs other candidates and HoFers, not just voting based on how they remember guys. It's very clear that's how most voters do it.

[@kingrama2727]

At least 2 years… It’s a crime that Kenny Lofton fell off after 1 year

[@ZChoate]

Edmonds too.

[@prgnify]

To me this shit is very simple. Accountability. If you get to vote, you have to explain why you voted for someone, and why you didn't. Make people able to vote either for or against - if they want to abstain they better have good reason, and then their vote is not counted in the total for a player to be excluded. "I didn't know enough about his career" is fine, but then that shouldn't be used to decrease a players voting percentage, you shouldn't count. But it would make it so much better: "why did you vote for player A to become ineligible in his first year?" and suddenly a lot of voters would start doing that minimum 15mins of research. Otherwise you might as well take their voting power away

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Agreed

[@BootyWarrior555]

Some voters vote longevity, others care more for big time seasons. One of the voters, Rob Parker said he automatically votes a pitcher with 300 wins, batter with 500 hr, and or 3000 hits.

[@OldSoulNewLife]

Facts! Because we need an explanation on Barry Bonds .. he is the greatest to ever play. No question, nothing you take will give you hand eye coordination, or the mechanics for a homerun swing.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Something you forgot to mention with Will Clark is that he played more than half his career with Chandlestick Park as his home park, one of the most notoriously hitter unfriendly parks in recent history that significantly depressed his traditional stats. Like in his 1989 MVP runnerup year, at home he slashed .325/.394/.516/.910, while on the road he hit .341/.420/.572/.992. Yet while the HOF voters for so long overly penalized Coors hitters (and some still were this past vote in their reasoning for not voting for Helton), they never gave an appropriate counter boost to hitters that predominantly played in pitcher parks. Alongside Clark, I also like to bring up Olerud, another contemporary well-rounded first baseman that was better than McGriff, yet also went one-and-done just because he didn't hit a lot of home runs.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Olerud is so similar to Clark, if I had more time I would’ve covered him too.

[@davemartino5997]

I always liked will Clark

[@CSDonohue11]

Man…. Idk about that Matt Williams and Kevin Mitchell Had their career there were they had some of the best season of all time and If not for injuries and a strike shortened 04 there’s be All Time Top 5-11 seasons there Oh yea … and…. Barry Bonds murdered there for 1st half of his Giants career

[@joemarshall4226]

Olerud was a magnificent fielder as well

[@joemarshall4226]

I’m not sure that Candlestick Park really hurt offense in general as much as its reputation. I knowNill James pointed out that Mays Mc Covey and Jim Ray Hart hit just as many homers there as they did on the road

[@LiNK52500]

As an Astros fan I've been saying for years that Berkman is a HOFer and he got snubbed on the first try.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

His 2011 with STL seals the deal for me. If he didn't do anything after leaving Houston, I think he'd be firmly in Hall of Very Good territory. Having an elite renaissance season then having one of the best postseasons ever en route to a title doesn't get enough credit.

[@LiNK52500]

@@AndThatsBaseball thanks for shining light on these snub cases, love your content, keep up the great work!

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Glad you enjoy!

[@TheTEN24]

I didn’t realize he never got a 2nd ballot which is ridiculous. I know as a Mets fan I’m annoyed enough Wright might not make a second ballot.

[@fortynights1513]

The now defunct Hall of Stats lists Berkman as a deserving inductee

[@danieljackett4193]

On the 2017 Vet's Committee ballot, Alan Trammell and Jack Morris were elected... Whitaker was omitted from that ballot because "a 10 player ballot should not have 3 players from the same franchise", yet Thurman Munson, Don Mattingly and Tommy John from the Yankees were on the same ballot In 2019, Whitaker should have been a slam dunk Vet's Committee selection...EXCEPT Rod Carew and George Brett did NOT champion Whitaker like they did Morris and Trammell 2 Decembers earlier

[@flame-sky7148]

Glad you mentioned Whitaker, if they're gonna put Alan Trammel in, then Whitaker should be in as well, as he had a higher WAR. The best double play duo in the history of the game. But the real problem with the baseball hall of same is not having a player such as Albert Belle not in. I know he was a head case, but his injury took him out of the game like Puckett and Koufax. The guy averaged 40 hrs per 162 games.

[@chemBTW]

will clark has always been my favorite baseball player of all time. thank you for covering him. 🙏

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Great player who gets so little mainstream coverage

[@MrListen2meplez]

Well said, Will “The Thrill” Clark was arguably the eras most exciting player and didn’t disappoint…an obvious Hall of Famer by any reasonable minded fan and peer…

[@chemBTW]

@@MrListen2meplez jon miller put it nicely in a 3 part series about will the thrill on the official giants youtube channel. you can argue the hall was made for guys like will clark. do his stats JUMP off the page? no. but in the bottom of the 9th with the game on the line, YOU WANT #22 at the plate. every single ballplayer that played with or against him will attest to this. if he's on the opposite team, thats the last guy you want to see at bat with the bases loaded or in a critical spot for the game. time and time again he delivered in these situations.

[@alaskaguyd963]

@@chemBTW Clark's my favorite player of all time but the LAST guy you want to see up with runners on and the game on the line is David Ortiz.

[@selfdo]

@@chemBTW Had the pleasure of seeing it happen OFTEN.

[@Tykoon22]

The issue of prestige/premium positions has always bothered me… For example, everyone knows about the 500 home run threshold, that is, if a player hits 500+ home runs in their career, they are a lock for the Hall of Fame. That’s great for a power hitting 1B, but how many 2B are going to hit that number? Almost none because that’s not the kind of player they are, that’s not what they do. 300 wins for a pitcher is an automatic ticket to Cooperstown -- good luck to any and all relievers out there. I know there’s a lot less of that antiquated thinking these days and the Hall of Fame criteria, writers/voters opinions, player eligibility, etc. is all slowly coming around and becoming more modernized in both their thoughts and actions, but there’s still so much more to be done, so many wrongs still yet to be righted and I think this video is a perfect illustration of that.

[@alexisborden3191]

I mean, I feel like the induction of Ortiz and struggle for induction of Billy Wagner kind of illustrates that the voters still have these issues. I mean, however you cut it, Wagner is at best the 2nd all time reliever, and at worst the 4th or 5th, yet he's going on his what 8th or 9th year on the ballot? Meanwhile Ortiz is a 1st ballot HOF at 55 bWAR, yet Walker has 72 and sneaks in on his 10th year, Rolen sneaks in with 70, Helton still isn't in with 61. I think the voters respect relievers even less than they used to, I mean say what you will about handing out Cy Youngs and MVPs to Fingers, Eckersley, or Hernandez. At least the best relievers of their eras generally like Eckersley or Fingers or Sutter or Smith, they're in, but a guy like Wagner, who I'd argue is better than all of them, might not get it? What is this nonsense?

[@zackaryhaselius2226]

Thats my biggest issue with the HOF is the lack of Relievers and 2nd basemen. Jeff Kent isnt in the HOF for what reason? Hes the best power hitting 2nd baseman of all time! And its not like he hit .220 or something. A career average of .292. He even won an MVP. Just because these guys numbers dont stand up to other HOF power hitters like an Ortiz or Jim Thome etc, doesnt mean they arent good enough. Yeah there shouldnt be alot of them in the HOF, but they should still be represented. Only Jose Altuve has a clear cut HOF case for active 2nd basemen and he has a scandle to deal with. So put the guys in who deserve it.

[@georgeprchal3924]

Tell that to Gary Sheffield.

[@alexisborden3191]

@@georgeprchal3924 Gary is a previous generation of player, and he's not in the hall because he's in the mitchell report not because voters are judging him by inflated standards.

[@selfdo]

@@alexisborden3191 The Mitchell report is a FRAUD. It's never be admissible as evidence in any legal proceeding. Basing judgement of players based on the opportunism of some corrupt HACK Senator reveals an IGNORANCE not worthy to even explain.

[@Rorschachqp]

TL;DR - the HOF puts in players that no fan considered “famous” during their play time and at the same time keeps out the players that all fans consider famous. This is due to baseball writers voting, who have their own agenda other than how good or famous a player was. The fact that even players don’t vote on this until the very, very end is also counter-intuitive.

[@CSDonohue11]

Famous has nothing to do with it Yes , the better players are more famous a lot of times But that’s not always the case nor does the fame matter whatsoever when it comes to being HOF MLBP Markets & media have too much to do with the fame

[@Rorschachqp]

@@CSDonohue11 It’s called the Hall of FAME.

[@joemarshall4226]

The idea of any hall of fame is to CONFER fame on an individual because of his accomplishments, not to celebrate his popularity

[@Rorschachqp]

@@joemarshall4226 Why bother? Because it doesn’t really work. And I don’t believe anyone else feels that way.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@Rorschachqp No matter how they feel, that is what Hall of Fames were designed to do. To recognize great accomplishments of people in an organization or an industry. And it does work. Everyone who goes to Cooperstown NY and visits the HOF remembers names that otherwise may have been forgotten

[@zkarekrow83]

It's really crazy that Andrew Jones is on his way in and Edmonds didn't even get past the 1st ballot.

[@luxace2576]

Todd Helton should be in the HOF

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Absolutely

[@andrewbloom7694]

Wow dude you couldn't have waited one more week before sending this lol...

[@luxace2576]

@@andrewbloom7694 uh ok

[@joemarshall4226]

He is now

[@yokaidigital3033]

I remember the hill catch in Houston, I was living in Texas at the time and followed both the Astros and Rangers a ton. I think the video hits it on the mark about him not having a position. He was an okay outfielder, an okay first baseman but not great at either. When looking at his former team for majority of career Houston their two legends Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell had well defined positions. Craig was a second baseman, and Jeff was their first baseman. They also didn’t move around spending their entire careers as Astros. Edgar was always a Mariner, arguably the best Mariner though there are a few others in discussion such as Ichiro. But point is when you think Seattle you think of Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz while didn’t start at Boston that’s where he broke out and so he is forever remembered as a Red Sox.

[@KTF0]

One thing that I notice is having a bad second half of your career without making any of the old thresholds you are not making it. Andruw Jones would've make it if he retired early.

[@joemarshall4226]

The most embarrassing thing with the hall is keeping Dick Allen out. The man had a 156+ OPS+! Higher than Willie Mays, if I remember correctly. How can they keep him out. His teammates all say he was a great guy, and very smart, baseball-wise.

[@fortynights1513]

If sabermetric stats like OPS+ were known and understood 40 years earlier, he probably gets in in his lifetime.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@fortynights1513 His traditional stats were great, too. HE was recognized as one of the best players in the game while he played. But the writers saw him as a "head case", which was based on somethings that weren't true, and the couple of times he left the team without explanation. The last two attempts, the Veterans' Committee left him short by one vote....

[@stankatic8182]

Absolutely ! Saw him play at Old Comiskey and with that heavy bat hit a screamer into the center field bleachers well over 460 feet .

[@Versatilty]

I grew up a Will Clark fan and it's criminal that he was a one and done even if he didn't ultimately get in. (Which I still think he deserves)

[@85mcarnold]

Will was comparable in value to Fred McGriff, and I think McGriff deserves to be in. Will was much better than Mattingly for their career spans.

[@roadtrip2943]

2000 hits, 137 ops+ , 300 batting avg when that was deemed important and not a look. Joke writers

[@forevertj]

Will Clark is a three toed sloth with no arms.

[@wraynephew6838]

Will Clark had outstanding On base percentage even in his last years. He had .426 OBP at the age of 36 with the Cardinals

[@joel8692]

​@@forevertj No arm needed to play 1st Base

[@jimmypop4539]

Thank you.. Someone finally gave Berkman some love.. He is and was so underrated.

[@madethecut]

Another great vid from one of my favorite baseball essay channels. Keep up the great work!

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Thanks 🐐

[@reidthomas2210]

I grew up a basketball fan and it is still my number one sport. The basketball Hall of Fame is notorious for pretty much just letting anyone in so for me as a basketball fan, the high ass standards for the MLB Hall of Fame always baffled me.

[@drwalka10]

It should be high ass standards to make it in any sports hall of fame

[@ShrimShim]

Are you telling me Bill Bradley isn't a worthy Hall of Famer!? 😂

[@Lex2real33]

What about José Canseco? First 40/ 40 ,3 consecutive A.L championships , 2 world series titles, rookie of the year, Unanimous A.L M.VP...

[@MrLatrunks14]

The Godfather of the Steroids era?

[@selfdo]

@@MrLatrunks14 He'd been snubbed ANYWAY. Jose was the sportswriters "whipping boy", and his immature antics didn't help. But the guy was a MONSTER on the field, with a HOWTIZER for a bat, and FAST for such a big galoot.

[@allhydraulics1202]

Canseco should have been a shoe in

[@gunsntposes7133]

@@selfdoCanseco was terrible defensively and didn’t start performing well until he got on the juice. If we’re not letting steroid users in the hall, he doesn’t deserve to be there either

[@selfdo]

@@gunsntposes7133 And when do you suppose that Jose "Can-Stink-O" (don't claim credit for the term) began "juicing"? He was never that good in the outfield, which was sort of baffling, because he had speed (having become a 40-40 man in 1988), and a decent arm (he tried his hand at pitching, THAT didn't go well), but just didn't seem to have the instincts for fielding. Canseco performed very well at the plate and was a threat to steal early in his career, so I don't know where you get this notion that he was some mediocre player made a star by steroids. He did confess to using them, which was hardly a surprise.

[@MrBentheretwo]

If your popular on a winning team and played a lot of years your numbers are secondary if not even part of the decision

[@hailmaryrecordings8255]

I was lucky enough to have a girlfriend who worked for the Mariners when I was going to school in Seattle during the early-mid 90’s. I saw Edgar hit A LOT at the Kingdome & that whole Mariner team was pretty exiting in 94-96. It was a magical-time in that city, for many reasons.

[@YouCanPlayGUITAR2]

Ryan Sandberg and Alen Trammell look so much like Steve Garvey! lol...great video man. A lot of work was put into this

[@owenembury5499]

I think John Olerud is right there with Clark as an egregious one and done first baseman

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Absolutely

[@jeffjacobson59]

Olerud was the most unathletic looking elite athlete ever! He wasn’t the typical 1st baseman and that’s what hurt him.

[@nrkgalt]

Had things gone a bit differently, Olerud could have been Ohtani before Ohtani. He had pitching ability but gave it up before getting to MLB.

[@selfdo]

As much as I'm a fan of "The Thrill", and very much appreciate his years as a Giant, his numbers simply aren't "HoF worthy". He's a shoo-in for the "Hall of the Damned Good!" Doesn't take away from him being a great guy, a positive in any clubhouse, and a player who, like later Giant Pablo Sandoval, made the game FUN.

[@nathanrobinson1099]

Carlos Delgado is the most egregious. The guy wasn’t great at D but his bat was absolutely elite.

[@joemarshall4226]

The most important stat is On Base Percentage. A distant second to it is Slugging Percentage. But both stats need to be considered in the context of the time they were made. OPS+ is great because it adds up both stats, then normalizes them based on the time and the park that the player played in. ERA+ is similar for pitchers...normalizing ERA for era and park effects. The problem is that OPS+ is weighted too heavily toward the slugging, rather than the OBP. So look at the OPS+ first, then look at the OBP and SP individually, to see which is the stronger. If you do this, you realize how great Edgar Martinez was. A .418 OBP is just extraordinary, regardless fo the era, and he also had a .500+ slugging. The man was a hit machine with a great eye. And his career batting average was 318!

[@Chck314]

another stat where Edmonds excelled

[@joemarshall4226]

@@Chck314 Edmonds career OBP was .376...very good. Edgar Martinez'z was .418 FOUR EIGHTEEN for an entire CAREER! Edmonds hit that number once, and only made it over .400 a couple of other times. Only a handful of post WW2 players had an OBP as high as Edgar's: Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Barry Bonds, Wade Boggs, Frank Thomas, and FERRIS FAIN...bet you don't even know who he is! A first baseman who played about ten years, and got more walks than hits and had no power, but boy, was he a great leadoff man.,,,,but Edgar had POWER, too, unlike Ferris or Wade.

[@karlschlenzig6884]

Thank You! OBP, Slugging (and WRC+) are the most important offensive stats. And Edgar stood out as an offensive machine on a team that includes Jr., A Rod, and Buhner. Not an easy thing to do.

[@joemarshall4226]

@@karlschlenzig6884 what is WRC plus. I m not familiar with it

[@karlschlenzig6884]

@@joemarshall4226It stands for weighted runs created. It measures through an equation their run creating ability and takes performance in different parks into account as well. So similar in that sense to OPS+ that also takes external factors into account. But it's a more balanced stat.

[@derrickhewitt6171]

Say it louder for the people in the back: It's unfair to leave out the PED players, but don't acknowledge the clean players.

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

And also unfair to judge steroid guys then let all the amphetamine guys from the 70s and 80s in since they ACTUALLY improve reaction times

[@gcj8925]

You can just stop at "unfair to leave out PED players"

[@EatsUsedTP]

I am a cardinals fan and I forgot Lance Berkman was on the cardinals until you said he won the world series in 2011

[@PpP-dr1od]

I saw a post on Reddit recently that showed Chase Utley's stats next to Whitaker and Grich to argue Utley isn't HOF worthy, and I nearly burst a blood vessel at the thought of someone using one of the most famous HOF snubs as a reason to leave someone else out. HOF debates can get pretty toxic in general, but I always hate people using player comps to tear someone down instead of building the other guy up.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

All three should easily be in. Kent should be in, too, if u ask me. So much scarcity at the position for no reason.

[@DavidBrown-wm1up]

One disingenuous thing about posing arguments that way is this: Whitaker and Grich aren't on the ballot right now, and Utley is. He deserves the opportunity he has, even if mistakes were made by the BBWAA voters in the past with Whitaker and Grich. Utley being voted in also would strengthen the cases for Whitaker and Grich, who are among the biggest snubs at any position, along with Graig Nettles and Dick Allen. Their fates are with the upcoming Vets committees.

[@alexisborden3191]

@@DavidBrown-wm1up Yeah I agree with this, I feel like people also make that disengenuous argument about steroids and Selig, Piazza, and Pudge, like, because they shouldn't have been voted in in the past means we can't have standards now? Like, yes if given the option I'd expel every commissioner and Cap Anson and everyone else assosciated with segregating baseball, but I don't think that's up to the voters right now, and none of them seem to care, they should, but having those guys in the hall isn't a reason to let other people in regardless of character.

[@thareelhelloagain]

​​@@AndThatsBaseball Kent is one of the worst defensive second basemen ever, and a PED user. You really want to reward an out of position first baseman who did dr*gs to achieve his stats and never actually won anything?

[@c.a.taylor1321]

From a Dodgers fan Chase Utley will always be a HoFer. Of breaking an opposing players leg...(cue the rimshot). No. For real though. Utley deserves it

[@joesavary6081]

Where is Bernie Williams? As a lifelong Jays fan, he was one of those players I'd rather be on our team. He was clutch, and respected. If needlegaters can go on the ballot, why isn't Bernie there yet?

[@fortynights1513]

Coincidentally enough he also fell off the ballot in 2013, the same year Lofton went one and done. He probably wasn’t mentioned because he made it to 5% once.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

He fell off his second ballot

[@stephenm8725]

Bernie was definately a solid player all around. He got overshadowed by the talent surrounding him on those title winning Yankees teams. Maybe, JUST kinda missing those numbers of HOF level, but I would argue he had a lot of other accolades that should at least merit some HOF consideration

[@thekendemetrishow]

Bernie has a stronger case than Posada or even Mattingly but at no point HERE IN NEW YORK did Bernie feel like a hall of fame caliber player. I think that’s at least in part because of his quiet shy demeanor but for the first 3 years they weren’t even sure he was better than Gerald Williams. Plus he wasn’t a traditional power hitter even without the juice heads, if you consider him one at all, playing CF in Yankee Stadium, which definitely hurt his perception. As a fan I was absolutely confused by his entire run hitting cleanup.

[@KDestroyer9]

Oh hey, speaking of the Jays, Dave Stieb! 1.4% iirc on his only ballot. Really? Secret Base's 4 videos on him are fantastic looks into how great he was.

[@Jason-hq1mk]

Great video! Lance Berkman has been one of my favorite ball players ever since he came up. Such a fun guy to watch hit, and a genuinely good dude with a great personality. Will Clark was another guy I loved to watch play, and he is really cool to watch these days when he talks about the game. He is a hilarious guy. I learned to love Jim Edmonds later on, but I couldn't bring myself to like him for a while because he always seemed to be an Astro killer. Could be my memory is fooling me but I seem to remember him really playing out of his mind against them.

[@sethadamson2395]

With guys like Berkman, they almost get devalued due to not staying with one team. He reminds me a lot of Nelson Cruz in the fact that they're power hitters with overall stellar bats, but became mercenaries at some point, and that's something I don't think the BBWAA writers like that much. It's almost like if you stay with one club, your resume can be somewhat lacking, but if you're gonna go play for a bunch of different teams, well then you better make it worth something or else you get looked at as "just another guy".

[@thelonelyphish]

Snuck in the Futurama theme music, nice

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Shut up baby I know it

[@naterosenbaum4830]

The Thrill got his flowers in SF though. There's a reason #22 is retired in SF

[@MikeNolan]

Will Clark said that was his Hall of Fame.

[@gavynhohon2818]

The real question is why do we leave Hall of Fame votes up to journalists? Journalism lost its credibility 20 years ago. Why can’t we rely on statisticians and other players?

[@selfdo]

Baseball isn't PLAYED by "statisticians", and stats can tell a LOT, but not EVERYTHING. Still, HoF should be by those that played in or otherwise WORKED for an MLB team, like a long term, successful manager or GM. Virtually ALL these "sportswriters" are nothing but HACKS that know they couldn't carry the jock of any HoF candidate with a front-end loader.

[@dqr89]

I was shocked berkman didn’t get more consideration ! As a lifelong cubs fan he terrorized us with both the stros and cards

[@DavidBaruffi]

David Cone, is one of my big ones in terms of not getting in. He was always one of my favorite pitchers to watch, and one of the few pitchers who threw the ball and different pitch angles back then. He through all his pitches at like, three different angles, so even if you knew what was coming, you didn't know how it was coming. And he has every other stat needed. He was a winner, his ERA was always low, he has a Cy Young, he has a perfect game, he won multiple championships, he was good in both leagues. In an era where everybody was juiced and people about the fastball, the pitchers who had a low fastball, but knew how to paint the ball around the plate and were a little were quirky and still got outs, they were much scarier and possibly more annoying to play, and David Cone is right up there for me. I thought once he got the perfect game, he'd be an automatic, and not even 5% is mind-boggling to me.

[@VinegarAutofill]

I was looking for a Cone comment

[@MrGageHarrison]

Fucking Buehrle is still on the ballot and Cone was better than him.

[@jackstaunton1457]

Excellent video kid!! Not the biggest fan of the game myself anymore, but Copperstown is a helluva place of legends! You really covered it from all angles, and totally hit the nail on the head at the end...writers' jobs are to put your level of diligence into their votes. Sad that you have to call them out on it, though props for doing it!!

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@cococock2418]

Imagine not being the biggest fan of the game anymore

[@proudhonintop4952]

Ngl when i read the title i thought it said "The big problem with Baseball Hall of Fame hats" and i was 20 mins in waiting for you to talk about how players are in the HoF with the wrong hat.

[@ThatGuy-ec2qi]

If Joe Nathan and Mariano Rivera didn't have overlapping careers, Nathan would have become a household name as the best closer in the game.

[@CCDaDon15]

Dick Allen should be on here too

[@baseballguy0125]

HOF needs a few things: 1. New Voters (aka former MLB Players, Scouts, and Analysts) none of this writer bull 2. Rule Changes- • Voters should be able to vote for as many players as they want • Change the removal from the ballot to 10% after 3 years, or >2% after 1 year • Voters must give reasons as to why they do or do not vote for players • All Ballots must be public (can opt to be anonymous but all must be revealed with their reasons for the voting) • There needs to be a better way to look at HOF snubs than the veterans comitee, too many people unacounted for, maybe there could be a write in for all voters for one player who was previously on a ballot before the new rules. (Cannot vote for yourself if a player) • Make people be on the ballot for 15 years rather than 10 3. Relievers need to have a lower standard in order to get into the HOF 4. PEDs users should not be penalized for finding cracks in a flawed MLB, however cheating scandals should be looked at and adjusted 5. Catchers should also have their standards lowered due to the wear and tear it does to the body

[@earlhuff7847]

This is another reason baseball is the greatest sport. We can argue and debate over things and who was better or who was worse. With that said the HOF is a private organization and alot of people forget that or think it is part of MLB. Not saying you don't just making a point of clarification. I disagree with new voters. MLB players are going to be biased on players they played with and may not have ever seen another player other than occasional All Star game or in the minors. The rule changes you propose are silly for lack of another term. Making voters say why they did or did not vote for someone, if you cast a vote anywhere in the USA there is no requirement like that. People won't vote then for fear of retaliation. Suggesting we lower standards are also not smart. HOF is an exclusive club and should be, we should not be lowering standards. Relievers have a tough role and I will say they are skipped over alot of times but in my opinion there are currently none that have been snubbed, at least not yet. Catchers are given credit for durability. I have heard several voting members comment that when look at catchers they don't hold them to the same offensive level as other players. I will admit that defense is overlooked and it is hard to quantify. And finally, PED users should be taken on a case by case basis. I don't agree with just letting them in if they have the numbers or career. FOr example Gery Sheffield admitted to using it once. Look at his career and he is consistent, body type consistent, and his explanation is believable. Roger Clemens no way he gets in. Bonds, McGwoire, etc no way. Loophole or not, it was morally wrong and they cheated.

[@baseballguy0125]

@@earlhuff7847 calling me silly for wanting to change a system where the greatest player of all time and leader in home runs, the all time hit king, and the greatest SS/3B and top five all time in Home Runs are not in the HOF is insane, relieves absolute should have their standards changed, they usually throw around 100+ innings less than 30 game starters. Over a 10+ year career that adds up quickly and it obviously does affect them. Also your telling me that writers, most of which have never played baseball or studied to the degree analysts and scouts do should have a vote over them? Even though they have a much worse understanding of the game then these people. I will agree with the former players being biased for teammates and against those who they hate but analysts and scouts more than likely wouldnt have a significant biased towards any certain players. However even sports writers have a bias for their teams. Multiple players have just missed 100% or even just miss at joining the hall because the people who didnt vote for them write for opposing teams. Anywhere you look there will be bias, you just have to deal with it. Also I believe that voters should explain who they do and don't vote for due to the fact of many times its just because they dont like the guy and when a player obviously deserves to make the hall and someone votes against them for an ignorant reason outside of statistics then they can be called out, doing so can help eliminate the bias that writers have for players. Not having a good reason and just voting for and against someone is unacceptable when talking about something as big as a 100+ year old sport with thousands over players in its history

[@fortynights1513]

@@earlhuff7847I could see the argument for a stricter, more selective mindset. That said, the players mentioned in this video did not deserve to go one and done in my opinion.

[@twostop6895]

not gonna happen

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

@@earlhuff7847so did Willie Mays, guess we need to keep him out

[@moonlittear218]

This is my first video I've watched of you. You got me on the Ortiz-Not Ortiz segment. I thought we were gonna be besties, but you are trickster. Seriously though, well done video. I look forward to going backward (makes sense, going with it) and finding other gems. #Subbed

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Thanks and welcome

[@MT-cm5ne]

Great video. There is a good group of guys who were 2 and through as well. Orel Hershiser, Nomar, Juan Gonzales, Albert Belle just to name a few.

[@ronaldlopez1594]

Another one and done that did not deserve so was Carlos Delgado

[@DavyBoy007]

One who is rarely mentioned is Dennis Martinez who had regular season stats similar to those of Jack Morris though Jack's postseason performances were far superior (which might be the difference maker).

[@sabiebright4554]

Jack made it to 250 wins, which is arbitrary, and being a playoff ace got him elected by the veterans committee. To me Morris isn't a hall of famer, he was a great player, and had legendary playoff performances, but didn't show the dominance in individual seasons for my own standards. Then again I don't vote for the hall of fame.

[@kenw2225]

Ws moments help alot. Morris is important for telling the history of the game in my opinion. Like kirk Gibson, Joe Carter. Baumgartner

[@fortynights1513]

⁠@@sabiebright4554Players like Jack Morris who made the Hall of Fame but don’t belong by the numbers should be considered Hall of Very Good in my opinion. Along with those who stayed on the ballot to the end of their eligibility, those who I think deserved further consideration than they got, and as the best handful of peaks at each position among those not covered by the first three.

[@bmac4]

​​@@sabiebright4554And Jack only got to 250 wins because he was an absolute volume innings eater. Good pitcher, his 1991 World Series alone should have an exhibit in Cooperstown given he pitched a full 10 innings of shutout ball in game 7, but when you go out there to get a decision every time even when your team is more likely to suffer a loss as a result of you coming out for the 3rd or 4th time through the line up (and thus accruing more personal Ls as well), naturally you're gonna get a few more Ws to pad the stat column here and there.

[@sabiebright4554]

@@bmac4 I really think Lonnie Smith could've rounded 3rd and made it home if he hadn't lost the ball in game 7.

[@TheRoundTheLeaguePodcast]

I never understood hall of fame voting I don’t understand how a player can go from getting 30% on the vote to getting in easily without playing a single game

[@robg8203]

First video I've watched from you and I loved it brother. Definitely liked and subbed, keep it up!

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Appreciate it!!

[@kingrama2727]

It amazes me a guy like Edgar Martinez is in but Kenny Lofton and Marquis Grissom fell off after 1 year… Kenny Lofton is definitely a HoF and Marquis is borderline but deserves a look

[@michaelduterte6239]

Marquis Grissom isn’t even close to a borderline HOFer

[@kingrama2727]

@@michaelduterte6239 you obviously need to look at his stats again. He’s got better numbers than some on there now. If you’re just looking at WAR then you’re doing it wrong

[@LeftCross_]

Good video. I think what I’d like to see since how easy it is now, is voters to make a video saying why they’re voting for or not for people. It’d give us a voting pattern, show us who takes it seriously and would scare off the one vote voters. Plus they’re sports writers and fans, arguing about opinions is a majority of what fans do.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Logically, they should all be writing articles about their picks (being writers and all), but some guys use it as a chance to clickbait a “I voted for nobody… here’s why” article so idk if that’s the solution

[@LeftCross_]

@@AndThatsBaseball Its definitely not a perfect solution but if making a video became a requirement for a vote, I think they’ll be less likely to turn in empty ballots since they’ll have to make a video regardless. I think with a video you open up the chance of coming off as a complete buffoon and will get you more heat with fans for empty ballots. Plus with shareable clips you create an avenue for more people talking about the sport in the off-season which is almost always good for growth. NFL and NBA are good about generating talk during the off-season, mainly because draft picks come make a difference instantly in many cases and their draft happens in the off-season. Baseball needs more.

[@g-mancollections5264]

A few things... 1. I'm a huge Astros fan. Berkman was absolutely deserving of the hall. He is an Astro. That is his identity. At least for us. 2. His stats were fantastic. But stats don't make you a hall of famer. The player you see with your eyes matters. 3. Comparing Lance Berkman to big papi, while flattering to Berkman, is not really a fair comparison. What papi did for the Sox is something of legend. Berkman had some big time postseason moments, but he didn't will his team to a ws victory after being down 3-0 to the Yankees. Moments like that gives him a huge edge amongst voters as it should.

[@chriskeck3689]

Thanks for adding Sweet Lou! I've been arguing for him for years. If Trammell is in, he has to be too

[@skorpiontamer]

10:00 let's not also forget Dale Murphy as a legit snub

[@Eomtuori]

Let’s go nother vid from the goat

[@AndThatsBaseball]

yup yup

[@SystemsAlliance]

I mean, 1B WAR is garbage as we all know and doesn't factor in positioning or much else. So throw that out the window for DH and 1B. And when we do that, and just look at like.... literally every other stat... how is Carlos Delgado not in the HOF? He has counting stats better than many in the HOF, from long ago and even recently. His slash line is considerably better than many of those in the HOF. And he has the backing of an entire city in Toronto. So what's the deal? If he played one more half season and cracked 500 homers does he go from less than 5% to over 75%? He may just have done that. And that's the problem. He should be in.

[@CokeZorro]

It's adorable when young fans start to figure out things like stats don't matter as much as hype personality and corruption within the league. Keep it up little KZbinr man

[@TheGuyWithTheSniper]

There definitely needs to be accountability for the writers. The ones who leave empty ballots or vote for one player just for the publicity and rage clicks should lose the privilege. This isn't to say, necessarily, that there are ALWAYS ten explicitly HoF-worthy candidates on the ballot each and every year, and writers who feel that PED's are a dealbreaker should remain free to choose not to vote for guys like Bonds and McGwire. But while writers shouldn't be *forced* to vote for candidates they don't want in the Hall, the ones who very obviously submit empty/one-vote ballots for the sake of outrage bait need to be shown the door. I think the 5% threshold should be re-examined. I think failing to reach that threshold maybe THREE years in a row would be a fair way to give the less obvious choices a fair chance before cleaning up the ballot without letting it get bloated from every single player getting ten automatic years of eligibility.

[@STICKGUYMB]

A huge issue I see with voters is that they HATE voting in guys who didn't play at an all-star level through their mid 30s. And guys who retired when they were like 36/37

[@fortynights1513]

Voters have historically valued longevity over peak performance. In part because until more recently, it wasn’t as easy to compare peaks.

[@forgetaboutit1069]

How Kenny Lofton isn’t in the HOF but Todd Helton made it is a shame. Lofton has a higher career WAR, more All-Star games, and Gold Gloves while Helton hit in hitter friendly Colorado. Could you imagine Albert Belle playing full seasons in Colorado? Plus Lofton is one of the best base stealers ever considering he played in the modern era. Lofton never took steroids and his brand of baseball was different than every juiced player hitting homers while Bud Selig looked away for TV numbers. Lofton was snubbed and this needs rectified.

[@schmitty8225]

I've said it for years, Ortiz shouldn't be in the HOF every other roided out guy isn't.

[@huez2238]

Freddie Freeman is a future Hof

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Yes, yes he is

[@fortynights1513]

Three things: 1. Thank you for uploading. 2. What you will probably find in general is that most voters from older generations looked at things in terms of longevity when they voted (ergo: What career totals and accolade counts did a player accumulate). As well as memorable moments and highlights (ex: the Double, Ortiz’s 2013 ALCS). They typically didn’t look at peaks because until sabermetrics became more mainstream in the 2010’s or thereabouts, nobody could really agree on how to measure those. And of course, players whose best arguments were sabermetric, and who didn’t have counting stats that stood out like Lou Whitaker would have been overlooked by older voters who wouldn’t be familiar with that way of looking at things. Sabermetric stats aren’t everything, but that mindset wasn’t likely understood by Hall of Fame voters at that time. And 3. One Hall of Fame ballot that deserves a retrospective breakdown is 2013 because there were a handful of players who have made it in, Bonds and Clemens made it on the ballot for the first time, and there were so many candidates that Kenny Lofton went one and done, and nobody was elected.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

I don't like that older voters heavily consider accolades when they're the same ones who made mistakes while voting for the awards

[@fortynights1513]

@@AndThatsBaseballVery fair to argue that accolades were overused. Case in point: Secret Base’s documentary on Dave Stieb showed that he probably deserved a Cy Young or two, but he didn’t get any of those, or many votes for it. Stieb went one and done of course.

[@fortynights1513]

@@AndThatsBaseballOne other thing (after having seen the Joe Nathan argument). Could the following be better than saves: The number of times a reliever did all of the following: A: Faced three batters or more B: Allowed no runs, earned or unearned. And C: Allowed no more than one baserunner. And in particular that total as a percentage of relief appearances of three batters faced. You could call it quality relief appearance percentage.

[@chriscascio3355]

Hey man, love your stuff. Now, during your segment on Lou Whitaker, I could help but think about Marcus Semien. As both have second base men with legendary shortstops next to them. So my question is do you see Semien having the same faith as Whitaker after he retire?

[@AndThatsBaseball]

It's hard to say. Semien needs to stay at this level for at least another 3-4 years and have a couple more solid years at the tail end of his career to be on that level. If that happens, there is a decent chance that he's overshadowed by Seager and ends up overlooked, but I'd think the younger voters have a better understanding of what he brought to the table.

[@DrAnarchy69]

Loving the Jon Bois inspired graphics. More please!

[@danieltravis5082]

The fact that edgar didn't get in until his 10th year of eligibility is criminal. He was like the Koufax of DH's, and a literal legend with a street named after him in Seattle. The fact that his counting stats are as good as they are, when he didn't play regularly until age 27, is incredible.

[@TheBatugan77]

Psssh. Get to a World Series one of these years. I mean, centuries! #GoYankees

[@danieltravis5082]

Do yankees fans ever shut the fuck up? What does his comment possibly have to do with mine?

[@CapAnson12345]

1:35 This to me is the real problem with HOF voting.. the least common denominator syndrome. There's always going to be the "best" guy that's not in. According to whatever stat you're judging. It has to be someone that draws the line. Maybe not Edgar Martinez. So let's look at the top ten in OPS, since you used that stat with him. Here are the top ten players with 1800 games ranked by OPS not in the hall of fame (that aren't PED associated - as far as I could find, or active players): 1. Todd Helton .9531 (23rd all time) 2. Lance Berkman .9429 (31st) 3. Carlos Delgado .9293 (43rd) 4. Jim Edmonds .9030 (68th) 5. Bob Johnson .8987 (74th) 6. Matt Holliday .8889 (82nd) 7. Moises Alou .8850 (93rd) 8. Will Clark .8801 (102nd) 9. Bobby Abreu .8697 (125th) 10. Mark Texiera .8694 (127th) Note all time ranks include players with less than 1800 games. It feels more or less reasonable that the line should be somewhere in this bunch. Around Texiera you have Hofers like Bill Dickey, Jim BottomIy and Joe Medwick. You probably wouldn't want to dip any lower.. at least as far as this stat. Now I think Todd Helton got WAY too much of a boost from Coors and his stats are mainly a lie. Berkman should be in.. probably Delgado.. then it starts to get hazy until you get to Will Clark. More on him in a bit. But let's say you just went by the stats and said Todd Helton needs to be in.. he is THE best player not in the hall of fame. I mean just LOOK at his batting stats! So they vote him in.. then, well we just gotta elect Lance Berkman. He's THE absolute, obviously best player not in. And then Delgado.. then Edmonds.. then Bob Johnson.. well not Bob Johnson.. he's the outlier in the list. Anyway you end with a whole bunch of relative nobodies with sketchy stats in the hall after a while. You have to look at the whole career and kind of make a subjective judgement. Edgar Martinez was a DH. That's a negative. Not a very good fielder when he DID play. but.. he was an absolute monster of a hitter. If you forced Martinez to play the field his whole career he could have done it.. but would have had pretty bad fielding stats.. and probably still would get in.. so therefore he should be in regardless. But my point with all this is I don't think you can just conjure up a statistical standard to judge a player's worthiness on because you can do that with anyone.. and the standards constantly change usually to the downside. I think there's been WAY too many borderline players in the last 20-30 years getting in because of this. Harold Baines being example number one. NOBODY thought he was a hall of famer when he played.. nobody.. the topic just never came up. top ten MVP twice. Meh.. awful fielder.. probably worse than Edgar Martinez. If he doesn't play those last two or three years and have that suprisingly good 1999 (ahem) season 25 hr/103rbis/.312BA he's not in the hall today. Which reminds me another interesting thing about the list is every single one of those players except Bob Johnson played a good portion in the steroid era, and a few had rumors, but nothing I could DQ them for. PEDs really were a black mark on the game. Anyway my personal line is Will Clark. Either put him in and never elect anyone else that you can't argue was better.. or leave him out and do the same.

[@Eibarwoman]

Only Matt Holliday and Bob Johnson had essentially minimal to no contact with the steroid era (Holliday's rookie season was 2004, the final year of the steroid era) and given Holliday's rookie season numbers being a fairly low power (13 HR), high batting average (.290), league average batter with below average defense his bWAR and fWAR for that season are a bit below average (0.5 bWAR and 1.3 fWAR) one could essentially erase that season and it'd not really do that much to his numbers. But then, he wasn't really good enough defensively and you end up with a Harold Baines as far as bWAR goes.

[@bsovvy07]

Thank you for covering Lou!

[@joshuapatrick682]

Jack Morris is somehow in there… despite no awards, and a 100 Career ERA+….

[@radhamesmfeliz4016]

I would like to hea about Carlos Delgado.

[@AndThatsBaseball]

I had a brief segment about him in the original vid. Someone I would’ve loved to cover, but didn’t because of time constraints

[@justinpridham7919]

Just leave Garvey pic for all comparisons lol

[@crowjb1976]

I was hoping someone else noticed, lol

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Man I edited the last 10 mins in one day didn’t even notice, bad mistake by me

[@justinpridham7919]

@@AndThatsBaseball I loved the upload!

[@Official_Joe_Tomberlin]

Been talking for years about David Cone man, thank you

[@TeamHolleyLineDancing]

I loved this break down. Well done. Just an FYI, during the Whitaker segment, you accidently left Garvey's image up for both Sandberg and Trammell. 🤪 And on the topic of 2Bs I'd love to hear your thoughts on Utley and his HOF chances/worthiness. Thanks.

[@fortynights1513]

Utley is essentially a peak player without a ton of longevity. He probably has a better chance now than he would have 15 years ago I’ll say that.

[@forgerelli1]

I love David Cone and would love to see him in the HOF, but you have no idea whether or not he used PEDs. The same can be said for everyone else you mentioned.

[@TJGriggs25]

I’m a lifelong baseball fan and player and I would never set foot in the MLB HoF. Everything about it is a joke.

[@drakestrickland3065]

Loved the video! What are your thoughts on Pedroia. I believe hes going to be on the vallot next year and i really dont want him to 1 and out

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Pedroia's a guy I'd love to see stay on the ballot, he was definitely on a HoF pace early, but those injuries really cap him. He's so similar to Wright, I bet he'll end up the same year one as Wright does later this month.

[@davidmatheny1993]

Even though this video acknowledges that Andruw Jones will likely reach 75% soon, it is disappointing that it has taken this long just because his last few seasons were lackluster like Berkman. From 1997 to 2006, no one played better OF than Jones, and in certain seasons only Bonds was a better hitting OF than Jones. If Ozzie Smith could be inducted based on just his defense, then Jones more than earned a spot with being an elite OF that barely missed the 500 HR club.

[@AmericanWorker1127]

It's hall of FAME. If people don't even know the guys name or remember him, or he didn't generate excitement, notoriety, set meaningful records, or have an epic, long lasting effect on the game, they're not Hall of Fame worthy. Hall of Fame is not a hall of really good stats (although that obvious is often correlated with Fame)

[@selfdo]

More like Hall of POPULARITY.

[@HoshizakiYoshimasa]

Talk about being hung up on the name. Change the name then

[@badbeck4]

The problem with that outlook, is that there are plenty of guys in the hall that didn’t do any of those things you just mentioned and no one knows their names

[@robwasilewski9273]

The problem is they let so many players in fromthe early years but now players with better numbers dont get the nod

[@drewskij2175]

You mean the players from the era of the game that built it into what it is today?

[@fortynights1513]

In particular those inducted through the Veterans Committees of the 70’s include a couple worse players statistically than you are likely to see today go one and done without debate. One thing I will say though to be fair to them: Sabermetric stats were not mainstream until more recently, and as such voters in earlier generations wouldn’t have gotten the opportunity to look into the data we have nowadays.

[@jonathonedwardmiller]

My thoughts on the hall of fame... fans should get a say. I mean we're voting on whether players belong in a museum that tells the story of the game from the 1870s to today. Shouldn't we get a say on who's in and who isn't? Me personally that's my criteria. I don't like arbitrary stats like 400 HR and 1000 RBI and 200 W and 3000 H/K and 70 WAR and 450 SV. First, we don't even follow that. A player that got snubbed from your list is Carlos Delgado. Carlos Delgado hit 473 HRs and was a huge part of those early Mets and 90s Blue Jays teams. His SECOND most similar career was Willie Stargell and his first, a player you mentioned, Jason Giambi. My criteria, and I think the criteria EVERYONE should have, is when we look back on this player's career, what would leaving his story and his career out of the overall story of baseball mean? Stories have unsung heroes and characters we all love later, main characters and, yes, villains. Get rid of the 10 person vote and the arbitrary 5% rule. Make it 50% to get in and put it back at 15 years. This isn't the hall of good people. This isn't the hall of amazing unreal players. This is the BASEBALL HALL OF FAME!

[@donalddowning4108]

I wish every ‘Hall of Fame’ took at least partially into account FAME and not just statistics.

[@chrisjuliano3964]

Ortiz did steroids

[@johnletuli7074]

But the media loves him so he gets the pass haha

[@cesaromercedes8737]

So did pudge Rodriguez and he's in.

[@craigwheeler4760]

​@@cesaromercedes8737 Pudge Rodriguez was a Hall of famer regardless of steroids, the same way that Rodger Clemens and Barry bonds should be in there. Pudge Rodriguez made it in on his defense alone. Steroids don't throw out 60% of Base stealers. He had a season where he did that by the way. Steroids don't give you a 3.0 defensive war in a season. He did that several times. He did steroids to recover from catching so many games, so you can see his offensive numbers were inflated by that.

[@MIKELIN8]

In May of 2023, I visited The Hall Of Fame. As you walk through the displays there are kiosks where you can give your opinion (vote) on Baseball questions. One of the questions was "Should Pete Rose be allowed in The Hall Of Fame?". I voted yes, thinking I would be one of few to do so, but to my surprise at that point 83% of the votes had been cast to let Pete in. The BBWAA vote out of spite, and are driven by their prejudices. Big Papi was always nice to the writers, so even though he took perfmance enhancing drugs he's in. Pete bet on games as a manager, but never against his own team. So this is not a Black Sox situation.

[@alexisborden3191]

Betting on your own team is still a conflict of interests, you're going to bet on your own team when you have your ace or number 2 pitching, and all your best hitters playing, and during that game you'll be motivated to use your best relievers. You can save your bad relievers and starters for when your not betting, you can give your best players a day off on those days too if they need one. I don't know how people keep repeating the 'he only bet on his own team' line, when that doesn't dissuade the integrity concerns. That's also before you even get into the alleged pedophilia claims that he settled over.

[@maxmeek8923]

Love the Dorktown influences and references. Also, Houston adores Berkman. The 3rd Killer B should've made it past one ballot at least.

[@275Vet-RLTW]

Your making a great case for the hall of good. The fact that some players are in and possibly shouldnt be doesnt mean other players should.

[@thatguyuknow1837]

I know this might sound crazy but give the writers the stats for each player on the ballot but make them nameless (the hard part as they could just search the stats) and give them the same stats for players at the same position that made the HOF because sometimes the name is what really decides who gets elected (maybe the writers dont like a certain guy). They would need a way to differentiate the PED guys from the rest as they cheated to boost their odds and skills (I dont care if they probably wouldve made it without them, you reap what you sow)

[@alexisborden3191]

I like the thinking but I don't think it could work, from the issues you mentioned but also positions aren't so clear cut. Like, how do you note the PED guys, how do you compare a guy like Mark McGwire, who absolutely hulked out on roids, to a guy like say Bartolo Colon, who got bopped well after testing was implemented, and likely even then didn't do as much steroids as McGwire, Bonds, or Clemens types did where you could physically see the change. Also position can be nebulous sometimes, for example Alex Rodriguez, is he a SS or 3B, is it even fair to call him a 3B when by all metrics he's the one who should have played SS over Jeter. How about on the current ballot Joe Mauer, he is a catcher, but he also started less games at catcher than he did 1B and DH combined, its not exactly the same level of catching as say Gary Carter, who played 2000 G at C and 200 or so elsewhere. Or how about Dennis Eckersley, he was a starter for a significant part of his career, he's got nearly 2500 IP as a starter, and only 800 as a reliever.

[@cmd0928]

It’s just crazy Barry bonds still not in

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Either put Bonds in or put the borderline clean players in, can't just leave out everyone from that era

[@Warum.2439]

@@AndThatsBaseballborderline clean isn’t clean. You’re either clean or you aren’t. That being said they should be in

[@MbgFire2067]

Sorry, but if you cheated, you don’t get in. I don’t care who you are. If it’s found out you cheated and are already in, you should get removed. The Hall is turning into the Hall of Very Good anymore. You should be an elite player for your entire career to get in and there should be certain benchmarks. Too many people are comparing players stats to other players in the HOF who weren’t elite to justify why said player should be in. Coulda, woulda and shoulda shouldn’t qualify you for the HOF.

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

Cheaters NEVER win. Winners NEVER cheat. And Winners Don't Use Drugs.

[@cmd0928]

@@JohnSmith-zw8vp I don’t condone the use of steroids, I don’t think anyone does. But you cannot deny the talent he had

[@deathminder9206]

In an only marginally related topic. One of the things I like most about the OOTP baseball game is being able to help decide who gets in the hall of fame during your franchises as well as the vote percentage threshhold to make it and being able to vote for 20 if there are 20 good enough.

[@truthoverfacts9254]

I want you to know that I see and appreciate the extensive effort you put into this video. Great job!

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed