Animated Atrocities 145 || Top 11 Worst Animation Cliches (Part 2)

[@dr.altoclef9255]

I liked what Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs did, where the father loved his son but had trouble relating to him, while his mother was better at relating to people. It affected him and his father both, he wanted to impress his father, but his father was already proud, he just couldn’t express it, which is a common problem.

[@CoolG97]

That dad also wasn't stupid, it's just clear that he had his talents and interests that were different from his son's.

[@dr.altoclef9255]

Exactly- He wasn't tech-savvy, his son was a bumbling genius inventor. I mean, if your kid's made something that can turn water into actual food then yeah, you'd probably be a little overwhelmed by technology yourself.

[@carlbloke8797]

so true

[@brianpguil]

Massive spoilers and the squeal did not do the twist villain thing but instead made the audience know chester is evil but not letting flint know until it is too late

[@nanuqo2006]

Mitchells vs The Machines did this too

[@slenderminion289]

The third act break-up. One character suddenly gets angry at the other for some random reason, resulting in them running off and/or abandoning the other. A cheap attempt at drama that generally doesn't last for 5 minutes and has no impact on the plot whatsoever. I am so sick and tired of it. Disney is especially guilty of this one.

[@arielruh7773]

I know I hate it ,i think it ruins the movie and the game

[@SRLovesPandas1]

LOL and it's almost always a misunderstanding of some sort which can easily be solved by TALKING ABOUT IT

[@adampkalb]

Mr. Enter didn't even like that when it happened in The Friendship is Magic Movie. But he gave Teen Titans Go To The Movies yes credit for finding a better way to pull it off. March 31, 2020, 6:00pm

[@barnilovrek2045]

Idea:Make a character that is relatable,kill it,and don’t bring it back.Now that’s and idea.(For movies)

[@47ratsinahoodie]

@@barnilovrek2045 I'm currently working on a comic with a bunch of characters I've created and one of them is a relaxed alpaca who loves listening to music and doesn't really care about schoolwork and I'm planning to kill him off sometime in the series. And even though my comic will take place in a world where magic is possible, no one will be able to bring him back cause I want that moment to hit hard and hurt the characters, knowing he'll never come back.

[@dracomurdock6349]

For Hans, they literally needed to change one thing- make his smile, from under that boat, into a smirk. A confident, self-satisfied smirk.

[@Lukmendes]

The smile from that scene is pretty much what shows they didn't bother to go for any sort of foreshadowing, hell, the only thing that arguably was a foreshadowing was the lack of a villain (Only some random character was saying his evil plans out loud occasionaly, but he didn't affect the plot at any point), but when you need that instead of actual hints, good hints, then yeah, it's poorly done...

[@aaaah540]

It’s because of his genuine smile that MatPat of Game/Film Theory thinks that Hans isn’t the real villain and instead was brainwashed into trying to kill Elsa and Anna. I really hope he’s right. Imagine a double twist villain and Hans being good all along!

[@luizfelipevbf5567]

@@aaaah540 that actually sounds like them trying to justify their lazyness. Like they heard complaints about him and the lack of foreahadowing/good writing and decided to make a sequel just to justify it.

[@aaaah540]

You’re right, but an attempted fix is better than none at all.

[@josephcavanagh7361]

You mean *hands*

[@springfallendeer7236]

I can name a cartoon where the dad isn't a lumbering idiot. Kim Possible. Her mom was a Brain surgeon and her dad is a Rocket Scientist. He's a bit of a dork, but he's hella smart and supportive of his kids.

[@yanivproselkov4555]

Kim Possible is a fucking fantastic role model, I think. I wouldn't know. I'm a guy so I followed the Ron model of gaining unnatural Kung Fu powers.

[@AvitalShtap]

Yes, and don't forget Greg Universe! A great, realistic, supportive dad - who is NEVER an idiot!

[@darwinxavier3516]

Good role models know no sex/race/age/whatever. I'm a Chinese guy and thought Daria was an amazing role model.

[@Arkalidor]

@@AvitalShtap Eh... Greg Universe is a bit of an idiot, but he knows exactly what kind of idiot he is, and he knows when he can help and when he'd just get in the way.

[@DruidsCalling]

Raven from teen titans had good parents:)

[@acerenalds9464]

Lisa: Yes a girl wants to play football Flanders: good we already have four on the team Best stereo breaking ever!

[@christopherwallace7903]

Ace Renalds ?

[@christopherwallace7903]

Phillip Thanks

[@Barnowl65]

Also, for the last cliche, I'm so used to a character coming back in Disney movies that I was surprised by the ending of The Princess and the Frog. They killed the firefly character, and he didn't come back! And I cried like a baby! They made me feel sadness for a bug! And he still got a resolution, despite dying! That movie is underrated.

[@ryanc5572]

My favourite Disney movie.

[@kyarabarrion4523]

Mine too

[@slightlystarvingartist3952]

How to Train Your Dragon 2 did it also. It was pretty refreshing, actually.

[@mikebarnes7441]

Love this comment!

[@davidspring4003]

I will just say, the original “joke” of the Minions was actually a good one. The fact they all looked so similar, but Gru could tell them apart easily. It spoke to Gru’s character a little, showing he actually cared enough to learn such things.

[@carlbloke8797]

David Spring that's actually true

[@matti.8465]

David Spring Yeah, their relationship is kind of cute and they show something of the main character other than having them stay in another room being funny in a B plot for comic relief

[@KnakuanaRka]

Yeah, that was nice, but the Minions were never intended as the focus characters they’ve become.

[@WaterShowsProd]

The Minions come from a traditional character class from commedia dell'arte: Zani. Zanis are servants who are so stupid that they can do anything that's required, with due vigilance and humorous consequences, until they spot food at which point they forget completely what they were supposed to be doing. I thought they were done very well in the first 2 Despicable Me films.

[@themiller3940]

I liked then when they were in the first and admittedly second one, it wasnt hammered into the ground

[@TheGoldenDunsparce]

#1 is why Stoic's death in How to Train Your Dragon 2 messed me up so badly. I was waiting for the fake-out, and it never happened. This also makes one aware that the series WILL kill a character off in the next film.

[@Mayeur000Donz]

It's established trust with the audience now. If we see someone die, they're not gonna brush it off later. It's not like Nick Fury literally being pronounced dead on the operating table, and still somehow come through fine (though I probably wouldn't be buying all the deaths in Infinity War anyway....).

[@Lauren_210]

I do commend Disney for taking the risk of killing off a comedic relief character in one of their movies since they rarely do that. Dr. Facilier kills Ray in The Princess and the Frog and he doesn't come back to life and stays dead.

[@AnimeArchaeologist]

The one case of a Disney Death done right as a trope would be Gascogne's from Vandread.

[@BeanBag343]

I completely agree with your number 1. I work with kids at a daycare, and I am often asked: "When people die do they come back to life?" I'm not even kidding. That is like the most commonly asked question I have to answer for my students. I'm only an aide, so I asked the lead teacher what I should say, and she did something remarkable: she told me to sit the kids down, and tell them the truth. The problem is, I've had students break down and sob over the idea that people never come back. I used The Land Before Time as a way to show them that just because someone has died and can no longer be seen, that person can still be with you if you remember what they taught you. It made a lot of the kids feel better, but yeah it really bothers me that no one has ever explained to them what death is. I get it, they're in kindergarten, but when everything shown to them basically says that people don't die and when they do they magically come back to life, it doesn't prepare them for reality. If kids aren't exposed to reality, they freak out when it comes crashing down on them. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

[@Lauren_210]

Wow that touched me. I aim to work with kids one day as a school counselor and it's definitely not easy to tackle difficult topics towards a young child, but needs to be done to prepare them for life.

[@reasyrandom]

Just show them Coco. That movie has probably one of the best ways to deal with Death that I have ever seen.

[@NylaTheWolf]

I completely agree. If we act like the world is all sunshine and rainbows, it'll only end up hurting them when reality slaps them in the face. Seriously, I feel bad for those children.

[@resortinrocha3387]

Show them The Book Of Life, it's a simple and cute way to tell kids that even if a loved one dies he will still be with you

[@schregen]

So who will end up in heaven? 🍄

[@deadpoolnerd]

I never understood the trope of showing look its a female doing male things but better she's a badass... why not just write a badass character who just so happens to be female

[@markcobuzzi826]

In other words, how Samus Aran was portrayed before Metroid Other M?

[@aeroblu2002]

I think Vriska Serket from homestuck is a good example of the badass who just so happens to be female

[@chadpeterson5698]

@@markcobuzzi826 and what she became again in future games

[@markcobuzzi826]

@@chadpeterson5698 Yup. Thank the gaming gods for Metroid Dread.

[@BrandonDeriveAncestorEmpire]

6:45 Knuckles reckted the internet

[@ironkevman1513]

Brandon Derive ok I have to applaud the man for that. And so does mrenter given his reaction.

[@themilitantatheist9243]

He earned my respect. :) (The Egoraptor clip was a nice touch, too.)

[@marieclaire6193]

Knuckles is best.

[@thesupersonicstig]

Brandon Derive And the others just look at him like he's an idiot.

[@youtubeuser3343]

Knock knock it’s knuckles He don’t chuckle

[@MrInitialMan]

I'd like to hold up Sesame Street as one who handled death properly in "I'll Miss You Mr. Hooper"--when actor Will Lee died, so did his character Mr. Hooper.

[@tylermannor4290]

Yeah, the entire cast was experiencing the same loss as the viewers

[@spooderman6312]

it was so depressing seeing big bird's reaction

[@stephenbrown4698]

I’m honestly surprised that the “if someone picks on you and is of the opposite sex, then they like you” trope didn’t make it. Ignoring Enter’s feelings on the matter, which he has shared before, this trope is very damaging. Bullying is bullying, whether a boy or a girl does it. If you dismiss someone being bullied physically or mentally as the bully having a crush on them, then that’s gonna have negative consequences on their self esteem. They might either believe that the bully legitimately likes them or they might lose a great sense of self worth because no one is addressing their problem with the bully. But hey, according to Ms. Teacher Person, I REALLY like this trope. Edit: I’m flattered by the attention this comment has been getting. Not just the amount of likes, but also the stories that you all have to share. For anyone who has gone through something like this, know that there are people who know that you matter and will take you and your problems seriously. It’s nice to see people come together and talk about this kind of experience. 😊

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

Stephen Brown I was not even aware that was a cliche. I think it comes from a misunderstanding about why people in love still fight sometimes.

[@stephenbrown4698]

JCBro2014 That’s not exactly what I mean. Like, let’s say a girl is picking on a boy. The trope says that the girl does that because she likes the boy. Prominent examples include Cindy from Jimmy Neutron and Helga from Hey Arnold.

[@stephenbrown4698]

darkrage6 That sounds more like teasing among friends to me. That kind of thing is fine, but there’s a big difference between teasing among friends and bullying.

[@stephenbrown4698]

darkrage6 Hmm...that is odd. I don’t know what to say.

[@Reckno64]

It always kinda bothered me in Hey Arnold. I liked Helga and Arnold, but I wish Arnold stood up for himself more.

[@kreepykhris4712]

I think you forgot the classic "winning the final battle with the power of LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP (or potatoes)" cliche

[@Reckno64]

*cough* Fairy Tail *cough*

[@1010ftw]

I wanna see a movie where they win with Potatoes lol

[@PunishedBlake]

That's used in so much shit though. Teardrops for instance are insanely potent elixirs as it turns out. Plus. I guess he didn't add it because it's just such a general thing in animation because the villains never team up so the heroes win because they have friends. For fucks sake, even live/action stuff does that/ Harry Potter survived his encounter with Voldemort through the most ancient magic of all, love form his parents.

[@crono3015]

He's not talking about Weeaboo Cartoons.

[@38procentkrytyk]

Harry Potters begins getting good when it drops cliches like dead parents and deals with more down to Earth stuff.

[@hopefulhyena3400]

“They’ve been doing this since Tarzan” Uhhhhh Clayton was not a twist villain, he was an ass from the beginning and they made it very clear that he wanted to catch the gorillas and that he didn’t put any value on their lives or the life of any animal.

[@Lauren_210]

Hopeful Hyena That’s exactly what I thought! Technically, I’d say Toy Story 2 is where it all started even though at first I was accepting of it because it was rare for Disney/Pixar to do that. I didn’t think it would become a trend within a decade.

[@darksideofevil13]

Funny thing is in the source material. He was a good guy.

[@kyragthecat177]

You forgot the about the • popular mean girl (mostly blonde hair) • the best friend that is a girl and also a love interest • the character who mean/beats up/abuse the main character but also love interest • the Bart and Lisa siblings relationship • something that has *Z* at the end to look cool • the prince and the pauper story

[@catalinamelo9932]

GOD I hate the second one. I had/have male friends, it's not all pyjama party girly crap for fucks sake

[@adrianharper9462]

I agree with the first and the third one. I despise overly aggressive and downright mean female characters in animation (both in animation and Japanese anime), and I hate how popular they have gotten over the years. Maybe it's my overly sensitive nature (and my bad experience with an abusive girlfriend who I dumped months later), but I just can't stand these characters. The first example is annoying sure, but there are some exceptions such as Pacifica Northwest and Yumiko Miura, but a lot of them fall under the same tropes. But the third one really gets on my nerves so much.

[@kyragthecat177]

Update • the trio that stars 2 boys and a girl either if that girl is the love interest or the sister of one of the 2 boys (I started to notice the trend and it pisses me off either show/movies I like and it's a ship I like or not and it's over use trope) • almost every sci-fi theme either it's for the entire series/movie or a one time episode is a comedy, exceptions are star wars and star trek

[@theadventurechu4546]

There's also the Damsel in Distress.

[@dcb99filmz]

you're telling me Babs Bunny didn't pull the second one off well?

[@starkamitheater721]

I'm glad that Mr Enter brought up King Candy/Turbo from Wreck It Ralph because I see him to be an example of a twist villain done right. However, I wish he had gone more into detail on what made him work: 1. There are little hints dropped throughout the film of King Candy not being what he seems, all without raising a red flag. Examples being him recognizing Ralph when they never previously met, looking different from the style of the other Sugar Rush characters, the announcer's voice being altered when announcing his name, etc. 2. In the end, Turbo came off as a more evil person than Hans, Bellwether and Yokai, considering that he got two games unplugged because of his own selfishness. His actions of trying to kill Vanellope and Ralph didn't feel like it came out of nowhere. I won't talk about Bellwether or Yokai since Bellwether did drop a few good hints and Yokai was designed to be sympathetic, but I will say this about Hans. He's honestly the worst twist villain I've ever seen in a film. Period. The only hint that's dropped is that he mentions that he wants to find a place in life during his duet with Anna, but that's it. Other than that, he spends most of the film caring for the kingdom, bonding with Anna and even stopped a guard from killing Elsa. Hans would've worked better if Frozen didn't have any villain, and he just believed that killing Elsa would make the eternal winter go away and save everyone. Also, I don't consider Smiler to be a twist villain, since her psychopathic and untrustworthy behavior was shown to be obvious in the trailers and her introduction.

[@WadeAlma]

Starkami Theater I like Hans. You don't need to be obvious to be a villian. Some people hide their intent or thoughts very well. Hans was in a foreign kingdom just to gain it. Why would he act like a villan? Hans had no power until the end. It isn't until you give a man power that their true colors show.

[@carlbloke8797]

WadeAlma uh no you have to see them desire power to see how evil they are

[@WadeAlma]

Carl Bloke Just because you desire power doesn't mean you're evil. There are many people with power who help people. Babysitters have power over the kids they watch but that doesn't mean they're evil.

[@carlbloke8797]

WadeAlma I'm not saying people in power are also evil but Hans doesn't convey anything to the audience that his intentions were pure and his twist felt tacked on

[@WadeAlma]

Carl Bloke But you don't really know who's your friend or enemy. I like that Hans isn't displaying his evil. How do you know someone's true intent? To find out Hans doesn't care about her in this story was pretty big. Her sister avoids her for fear of her safety. Hans follows her because she's naive. The lesson could be interpreted as be careful who trust. You never know who's the wolf.

[@CoolG97]

Hans's villain "reveal" is one of the main reasons why I prefer Tangled, Mother Gothal may as well have a sign over her head flashing "I'm Evil" but she was entertaining and given screen time to show how bad she was. Elsa was more a villain than Hans was in Frozen, Elsa doomed her kingdom to become a sub-zero version of Pompei but a song about how she has NO GUILT over it and a shiny dress makes up for it. Also, while browsing the WCHB page for Frozen on TV Tropes I kinda prefer some of the ideas they had when she was planned to be evil, but I guess Female Villains only need reasons to be evil in bad remakes and re-imaginings. Also, Tangled's fake-out death was used to set up a shout out to the original fairy tale.

[@EternalDahaka]

To be fair, Frozen made it clear Elsa didn't know about creating an eternal winter before Anna told her. Still, I agree. Gaining control over her powers is one thing, but there was never any consequences for her even accidentally causing that, and nobody even cared she had powers which sort of defeats the entire initial conflict of the movie. Frozen was originally supposed to be an adaptation of the Snow Queen. They changed the plot and her character when they wrote the "Let it Go" song. I wish they would have stuck with the original version.

[@CoolG97]

EternalDahaka Yeah, that first part doesn't excuse Let It Go being held as "empowering" when plot wise it's almost a literal version of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

[@duncanm4061]

You mean ymnv?

[@CoolG97]

Devil's Advocate I meant the "What could've been" page.

[@acerenalds9464]

They could have totally had five minutes about a scene writing to his 12 brothers telling him he will soon be the leader of the duchy of (whatever kingdom frozen is) and made him a Von Habsburg style villian.

[@hopecat7466]

Knuckles from sonic boom may be a little slow, but he is philosophically inclined

[@hopecat7466]

and grab you Big Fucking Guns, because that's the only thing that can kill the emoji movie in one hit!

[@Lambda_Ovine]

Too bad the game is fucking terrible.

[@hopecat7466]

To Athánatos let it R I P

[@Rebellion_009]

To Athánatos it’s the reverse of what usually happens

[@NylaTheWolf]

I'm surprised there was nothing about "Babbling because you're in love" cliche.

[@petormaculan5424]

29:52

[@adampkalb]

@Hannah Papernick-Yudin I know. Enter already talked enough about that in Animated Atrocities #116 and #121. April 13, 2020, 9:26pm

[@PinkPenPlays]

I kept thinking people did that when I was a kid or that I’d do that. Now I just get a random stutter when I’m nervous cuz I thought that was also something. Plus the “if they tease or hurt you that means they like you” cliche. That’s hurt me so much where I’d think that a partner doin things to harm me in any way meant they like me when really it’s a red flag telling me to gtfo or I’d be locked in for a while and believe it’s normal when it’s anythin but normal.

[@lordravenblade]

@marianne mccrank I want to say his mouth was numbed somehow rather than it just being nervous mumbling. Could be remembering a different movie though

[@bionichuteagain2583]

Also Hans is worse than Bellwether because there are actual clues to Bellwether being evil, Hans is just a twist for twist's sake

[@reasyrandom]

It's the other way around. Hans had decent foreshadowing, while Bellwether's was minimal.

[@rachelm.4741]

I personally prefer to see Hans as an adaptation of the Mirror from the original fairy tale. The Mirror, created by the Devil, shows the ugliness in anything or anyone that's in front of it. I see Hans as the Mirror because there is a mirror theme around him: some shots in the Love Is An Open Door sequence are symmetrical; when Hans shows "his true colours", he's looking at his reflection in the window; and most importantly, he mirrors some of the characters' behaviour (he's nice and quirky with Anna, he's strict and commanding with Weaselton, he reflects Elsa's fear of being a monster, etc.).

[@PatheticApathetic]

Or, if the rumors are true, then the Hans twist was only because they decided against Elsa being the villain during production, so they just didn’t have time to actually develop Hans as the villain

[@vaymullins428]

To be fair about Hans’s poor character development leading to an anticlimactic villain reveal, the original story goes in a completely different direction so they kinda had to scrap up what they could to create a solid conflict that would require actual suspense to reach a conclusion rather than a heartfelt conversation and a good cry.

[@zooemperor3954]

There is a way to make Hans have foreshadowing as a villain. In the beginning, when he’s knocked into the water, here’s what they should’ve done: make his smile a mean smirk instead

[@CuteAnimeGirl]

The Pokemon death thing was foreshadowed in the Japanese version by a story told that Pokemon tears can bring someone back to life. It's still bullshit but they foreshadowed it so it didn't come out of nowhere

[@fieratheproud]

Wait, wasn't that a thing in the 4Kids version too? I distinctly remember that being explained. Or was the Finnish dub for that movie actually translated from the Japanese...? no, no, they used the English dub names... weird.

[@Evilriku13]

I miss Takeshi Shudou, esp because I recently watched all eps of Pokemon where he did worked at. And besides 2-3 I really see that he did big things there, thematic wise. And that in most of these episodes Team Rocket weren't villains but assistents and/or are cooperative with Ash & friends. I like also how they give Team Rockets more character with this episodes, and how worldbuilding is something unique to the anime, and by some looks of it, Nintendo had a problem that Mr Shudou did things of his own/had his own vision of the anime/pokemon, as he wrote interesting Details about that in his manga to the anime, explaining what happened to Ash's dad, or why Gary Oak got cheerleaders and why Brock is always looking for a women, which sadly was never explained in the anime itself, etc.!

[@TheRedVoyager]

As someone who doesn't like Ash Ketchum after the first few episodes as a character and doesn't like the show but loves the games, him coming back to life frustrates me.

[@RavenStarMedia]

@@fieratheproud That was definitely in the 4kids version as well, where a story of Pokemon tears was mentioned during the storm. It was more explicit though in the accompanying short The Origin of Mewtwo (where we see Mewtwo when he was still developing as a kid), but that was cut from the theatrical release because of the controversial aspect of human cloning that was being discussed in America at the time, so us US kids didn't get to see it until the DVD for Mewtwo Returns came out a few years later.

[@nataliau.9322]

1. Every female character ever looking like she was designed by Glen Keane 2. Every 3d movie having the same smooth, faux-cinematic, resin-y type of animation with focus on realistic textures instead of original movement or character design (we get it, you can render utrarealistic fur/hair/snow now, nobody cares) 3. Every movie being a fast-paced musical family-friendly comedy or, in case of *edgier* pieces, some kind of stupid, gratuitously offensive, unfunny garbage you're supposed to watch while stoned, oh wait, you already adressed that my bad

[@mayflower6403]

Do you find anything inherently wrong with Glen Keane's art style, or do you just want something new.

[@nataliau.9322]

The latter, because as much as i'm tired of it the style itself is actually great, it wouldn't have stuck otherwise. It's the mindless self-plagiarism that made it lose its charm, imo.

[@the13throse]

Inner Workings looks worse, though. Exaggerated features are good to an extent, but when you make a character 90% hips or upper body, it just looks lazy.

[@underplague6344]

Imagine this: a movie that has a parent like buck cluck but it takes his neglect and abuse seriously and the plot has no aliens or anything, just a child dealing with his abusive father

[@itsjoshua2508]

Seems like a really great dharr man video with 10x the torture.

[@alexvaughan1013]

Chicken Little could've done "cartoon animals dealing with heavy, realistic topics" years before BoJack Horseman!

[@pepperonipizza8200]

The initial plot for Chicken Little was supposed to be Buck Cluck learning from his mistakes as a parent. It was supposed to entirely be about baseball and how his discouragement hurt Chicken Little. There was a deleted scene of the Mayor telling him that failing is natural, but Chicken Little still needs someone to fall back on. I really don't know how the aliens got added.

[@Lishadra]

Can you imagine how much more powerful it would've been if Elsa had been the villain the whole time, but Anna continued to chase after her to try and redeem her because she loved her, to the point of dying by her own sister's hand? That would have been so much more memorable and such a powerplay for Disney! But no... we got the not-really villain, the twist villain, and the fakeout death. Sigh.

[@davekendall5936]

Lishadra I think people would've complained about Elsa being a villain. "Disney needs to break this cliche!" And yet, people STILL aren't happy with it when they break this cliche in Frozen. People and their unrealistic expectations and double standards...

[@Andystuff800]

Or keep her as is, but Anna dying turns her into the villain for the sequel.

[@MattMcIrvin]

@@davekendall5936 At the time, Frozen got a lot of praise for doing something different from the traditional Disney villain. In the early stages of development Elsa *was* the villain, and usually the story is described as having gelled when they decided not to do that. Of course, all that plot did was cement the twist villain as a new Disney cliche (I guess Wreck-It Ralph had had one the previous year). Tangled actually did it better, by using dramatic irony from the beginning: we all know Mother Gothel is a villain but Rapunzel doesn't. Still has the death fakeout though.

[@YamatoFukkatsu]

@@MattMcIrvin That's something I found interesting with a lot of Disney movies, actually. We all know from the way the movie is advertised that Ursula or Jafar or Scar is the movie's main villain, but then we actually see the movie, and towards the beginning, we see the protagonists casually chatting with these characters like they're old acquaintances (which they are, actually). It isn't until later on that their true motives are made clear and they become the cackling fiends that we see in the commercials. As a kid, this seemed like a MAJOR subversion from the usual "I'm default evil just so the good guy has somebody to fight" villains.

[@Justanothermusicnerdxo]

Yes but then we couldn’t use Elsas nature about being hidden, and the freedom of being open as a metaphor about sexuality. And when you get down to it.. that’s sort of a main element of the movie. To demonize someone is a metaphor for LGBT... probably in bad taste of the modern times. I.E. no need for Jafar two.

[@nobody2996]

I wouldn't count Wreck It Ralph as having a twist villain, from what I remember the character was always made out to be a villain, just not the big, big, villain.

[@PunishedBlake]

Yeah, but it was foreshadowed well enough. They introduce Turbo and the whole notion of a game character "going Turbo". It sets a consequence for Wralph's actions and also lets the audience feel like the sudden reveal makes sense. I mean, it was a twist, but it wasn't a sudden shift in the character of Turbo or that Candy King asshole since they're both made out to be selfish pricks.

[@jamainegardner4193]

emoji movie too.

[@kyuven]

King Candy being the villain wasn't really a twist. King Candy being Turbo was the real twist. Which was part of the genius, since it suddenly made his motivations a lot more clear without him having to monologue about them.

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

Kanassa It's more a twist in his actual identity and motives. King Candy is still the villain even before he becomes Turbo.

[@benjaminwambeke9458]

Kanassa If it counts as a twist at all, it’s certainly the best twist villain in a Disney movie, having the twist already being set up in part of the lore.

[@benjivenator]

My main problem with Disney Twist Villians is that it means that we can't have any more Disney Villian Songs. Also, Bob-omb Battlefield. Nice.

[@PhoenixRising87]

Honestly, I'll take more compelling characters/stories over more villain songs any day.

[@Raptor_Ren]

But they aren't more compelling, like was said in the video. Seeing 3 minutes of their actual character is a lot more boring then watching them over the course of a movie or series. Look at ATLA (Which I'm admittedly biased towards, as you can tell by my avatar) Look at Zuko, Azula, And the Firelord, while they each had varying screen time (and one turned good), we got to know each for who they were, and remember their characters, motivations, and overall had fun watching them lose or win. Now imagine if, in the last few episodes, Iroh freaking burst in because it was all an elaborate plot to become the Firelord himself. It destroys the character as they had been established and leaves a sour taste in viewers mouths. I feel the same way about Hans and belweather, since we left the movies knowing less about them than if they were just positive, helpful side-characters.

[@IceLena]

Basically a Villian song was suppose to be a quick supporting point on why they are evil or the villian, (Frolo is the best example of this) it went into their over all character story. However over time it became a quick way to show oh this character is evil and not have to do the work of fleshing them out. The Twist evil nowadays has the opposite problem because it's become a lazy way to have a villian without flesh out their motivations properly in the cause of Hans and Bellweather throught the work.

[@cartoonygothica]

The idiot parents trope is something I'd be happy to see go away. I know not all parents are good parents, but it can't hurt to show good parents in animation! I have mixed feelings about how characters don't age in most cartoons. On one hand, I like seeing consistent designs for characters, but at the same time, it doesn't feel believable to not have them age. One of the things I like about Wreck-it Ralph is that I see a good reason why the (video game) characters don't physically age.

[@Lauren_210]

I'm glad Bob and Helen Parr from the Incredibles films break this cliche since they are competent parents

[@jbcatz5]

While some idiot parents can be overprotective, not all overprotective parents are idiot parents. The non-idiot ones just tend to be bad at communication, or are dealing with children who are impulsive and/or teenagers. Marlin in Finding Nemo has a rough relationship with Nemo because he’s worried about Nemo’s weak fin, and Nemo is annoyed more than he is appreciative. It’s only once he realises what his father will go through for him, and for Marlin to recognise that Nemo doesn’t need constant worry that things get better between them. Triton in Little Mermaid tells Ariel that the human world is forbidden, but this makes the human world like forbidden fruit to her because Triton is not able to adequately explain why the humans are bad. He doesn’t like having to punish Ariel for her interest in human objects, and even signs Ursula’s contract to protect Ariel.

[@cartoonygothica]

That is true. Good points you brought up, there.

[@slashbash1347]

4:51 Well, there is Treasure Planet, where Jim's father wasn't dead; he just left them! Which was interesting, because in Treasure ISLAND, his father actually DID die.

[@diegorojas2049]

Not to mention that in Treasure Planet, Jim not having a dad fitted into his character

[@nadie516]

And the dynamic that long silver and jimmy made it really significant

[@theadventurechu4546]

And not to mention the fact that when the father left, Jim became SEVERELY depressed.

[@wahlflower3517]

I didn't mind Moana's chicken because at least he was a SILENT comedic side character. I can stand most comedic characters as long as they don't spew minion gibberish or spit pop culture references.

[@Double-R-Nothing]

Press Start His comic relief was done without the use of dialogue, and was conveyed almost completely visually. When he did make noises, it was downplayed because Alan Tudyk knows what he's doing. Yes, Hei-Hei was voiced by the Duke of Weaselton and K-2SO. He's like Josh Gad, but funny.

[@Double-R-Nothing]

Press Start What exactly annoyed you about him?

[@carlbloke8797]

Mr. Snarky ikr that's awesome

[@carlbloke8797]

Press Start that's just the traile

[@onetimeanswer]

He definitely tops off my list in terms of personally tolerating the trope. If for no other reason, than testing SO well in focus groups that he actually upstages and completely replaces the only other "cute pet" character that was even more superfluously added in.

[@NewYorkStar9]

I would watch the hell out of “the Tampon Movie”

[@erickmartinez5631]

New York Star it would be bloody funny

[@WiiMusicBooster]

"It would be BLOODY funny" Hahahah. Oh I'm blissfully unaware of how females work.

[@theCodyReeder]

Bet you cant wait for half the characters to come back in Infinity War part 2.

[@haroldbalzac6336]

Cody'sLab What.

[@dreamkind]

I... wasn't expecting you to say that, let alone be on this video? But hello anyway! Big fan of your channel my dude

[@unexpectedinquisition4862]

At least we’ve been given a year to prepare for it. I just hope that my prediction comes true and they kill all the go avengers to soften the blow, in which case I think it could be totally salvageable.

[@gman4736]

Like they would KEEP spider-man dead!

[@Icerope-km9lu]

HAHAHA Marvel scenes should’ve been montaged during the last five minutes of the video

[@paladinjones1833]

Bob and Linda Belcher are probably my favorite animated parents. They love and support their kids, even when the kids' interests are weird or off-putting. Linda especially kind of reminds me of my mom in that way.

[@blakchristianbale]

Paladin Jones although in the weaker episodes they're basically just a reverse of the stereotype.

[@DragonKazooie89]

The only ones I can think of are the ones that are usually single parents like Lois from As Told by Ginger (Divorce) and Greg from Steven Universe (widower because Rose gave up her physical form so that Steven could exist)

[@heskymarky]

Spongebob's parents are pretty harmless

[@pleasedislikemyvideo2101]

but the problem with that is they don't play a very big role in the series.

[@tiffany-chan1235]

Paladin Jones Honestly, I love Greg from Steven Universe and Scrooge McDuck!

[@mariokarter13]

Maybe parents in animation are terrible because animators have terrible parents, so they lash out at their parents while relating to children who also have terrible parents.

[@kyletowers9662]

maybe their parents didn't approve of their career choices

[@LikaLaruku]

The dumbass stubborn dad & lazy/clumsy/space-case/nagging mom trope was pretty common in non-animated sitcoms when I was growing up. From The Munsters all the way up to Married with Children.

[@Enchie]

Lieutenant BaconWaffles Other then maybe anime and comics, where isn't it common?

[@Scream_Lord]

I can think of quite a few good examples of parents in animation that don't fall into the nag and idiot trope. K.O's mom Carla in OK K.O Greg from Steven Universe ......That's all I got from the top of my head.

[@Enchie]

Pee Wee Didi Saka and Katara's father. You named the others I can think of.

[@DoofusInc]

Thank you Castlevania. It's adult animation that ACTUALLY has passion for animation. And bear in mind that the budget was a fraction of the big animated shows have, therefore, yes the animation can be stilted at times. It tried (and IMO succeeded since it got greenlit for a second full season the very next day of the release) to make adult animation a medium; it had action, horro, comedy and drama. Hell, it had bigg-ish names as voice actors (notably Thorin from The Hobbit) that I'd imagine would be a significant budget drain for salaries and STILL put effort and money into the actual animation. God, the new season can't come soon enough.

[@STARPHASE]

But it's also netflix and an anime. Many anime shows have great animation quality. Even the older ones. They put effort into the character designs, backgrounds, and the animation its self. Not all anime shows are good, just like anything else, there are A LOT of bad ones out there. But generally speaking, the animation is great, and many of them are adult shows. Castlevania is a beautifully animated show, and even outdoes a lot of other anime shows. But, he didn't include anime for reasons he explained in part 1, which is totally fair. But, if you like Castlevania, check out shows like Fate/Zero, Fate/Apocrypha(Most the Fate/ series, really), Psycho-pass, Blood Blockade Battlefront, Steins;gate(slow at first but picks up in the most AMAZING way), even Attack On Titan, which gets mixed reviews, has great animation and has improved with each season, K project, and Gangsta.(which unfortunately won't be getting a second season) which has pretty good animation through most of the season, and the plot is great and it has a lot of adult themes that are interesting, and the most unforced, diverse cast I've seen in a while. Hell, even Voltron on Netflix has pretty great animation, and the story isn't too bad for what it is.

[@pundertalefan4391]

Yeah, The Sonic Boom cartoon deserves more credit. EDIT: Wow. That's a lot of likes. XD thanks.

[@gman4736]

@GoldenMinecart they called out the fanbase for the fanart

[@Mothlord03]

Yes, people thought it'd be way worse than it was

[@saiyanscaris6530]

@@Mothlord03 honestly its my favorite sonic cartoon series

[@saiyanscaris6530]

also sonic boom cartoon actually did the body swap episode right

[@CrasherX2000]

I absolutely ADORE the Sonic Boom cartoon

[@MiyaoMeow588]

I feel like the idea of a *twist* villain works better in a television series that will likely be many, many, many hours long, because you'll still have plenty of time to know that villain *as* a villain than just the lie they've presented this whole time. Unlike a 2 hour (at most) film where the twist happens 5 minutes before the credits roll. I also think there's certain factors that can make it work better. Like if the facade wasn't entirely a facade, or if the villain was already known as a villain from the beginning but just not *as* big of a villain as you might've thought, etc.

[@crashicbrosx]

syndrome for me was the best "twist villain" from disney or at least pixar"

[@SuperLlama42]

Or video games. Tales of Symphonia had like FOUR twist villains and only one of them only got like 5 minutes of development of their ACTUAL selves before dying, while the rest are some of the most well-developed characters in the game.

[@uanime1]

Or the twist occurs in the second act, not the third act.

[@92manix]

I can name good parents: Jimmy Neutron's parents. More specifically, Hugh Neutron's the "dumbass dad", but Hugh is shown to *actually* care for his son. It's pretty clear that he cares for his Jimbo. He is definitely at least somewhat competent and the only real times that he is distracted is when he chases other things like pie or ducks. Still, that's much better than the Fairly Odd Parents.

[@Lauren_210]

Goofy is also a good example of the "dumbass dad" done right. Yes, he can be clumsy and make errors, but he does genuinely care for Max. In A Goofy Movie, he was willing to do anything to make sure his teen son didn't end up as a delinquent (especially out of the fear regarding the electric chair, which would scare the shit out of any parent coming from the principal about their child).

[@MrChaotic4]

Marlin being overprotective of Nemo is completely justified. Coral and all of Nemo's unborn siblings were eaten and Nemo is all Marlin has left of them. I'd be a little overprotective of him myself if it were me.

[@supernova4226]

Hiens doofinshmerts need I say more

[@maxleon61702]

Some facts.

[@robertdelrosario8176]

What about Bob and Linda? Despite their flaws, they seem to show genuine love and care for their children.

[@Frikiman_H]

25:44 "This is what makes it more devastating than, say, going to the bathroom; even though both can be insanely painful". This is probably the best toilet humor joke I've ever heard. By far.

[@GatorRay]

Frikiman IKR

[@cameoshadowness7757]

Frikiman yup.

[@carlbloke8797]

so true

[@Clonehunter1]

Technically, both the parents in Treasure Planet are, as far as anyone in universe knows, still alive. Jim's dad simply left, but was never confirmed to have died afaik.

[@dadjokesdaily1529]

Austin Dahlke maybe that’s one of the “less than a dozen”.

[@matti.8465]

I also despice the "conflict based on a misunderstanding for hearing/seeing something out of context at the wrong moment" and i absolutely loved when Phineas and Ferb made fun of it

[@papershadow]

Honestly, that trope is one reason I really appreciate Wreck-It Ralph. Ralph and Vanellope falling out in Act 2 isn't from a miscommunication or hiding secrets, Ralph tells her everything about the situation as he knows it and they still don't agree on what he does, so there is legitimate conflict and wrongs to be forgiven and righted.

[@reasyrandom]

Ralph was manipulated by King Candy, so it's not a misunderstanding at all, it's just Ralph being determined to protect Vanellope.

[@Lauren_210]

The only time I've ever seen the misunderstanding cliche done right and never bothered me was in Brother Bear. Denahi was going after Kenai to stop him from getting revenge on the bear that killed Sitka and didn’t see Kenai turn into a bear. Thus, he thinks Kenai also got killed by the bear just like his brother and throughout the movie, goes after the bear to get revenge on it for killing Kenai, not knowing that he’s trying to kill Kenai. First time Denahi runs into Kenai, he tries to tell him that it’s him, but Denahi doesn’t hear him speak English and only hears animal sounds (which helps to establish the rules of that universe). We the audience follow both Kenai and Denahi’s journeys and we understand both of their sides. We can even feel sorry for Denahi because he’s by himself and is under the belief that he has lost two brothers despite the second brother not being dead at all. It would still be such a tragic thing to go through if you were in his position.

[@Arlesmon]

I don't know if the cliche of "conflict based on a misunderstanding for hearing/seeing something out of context at the wrong moment" is inherently bad. Sure, it's lazy and not a good way to start a genuine conflict that will give a good time, but i think it can be used creatively if done correctly.

[@ikebirchum6591]

@@Arlesmon any trope/cliche can be done well, the problem is that most people dont do it well

[@IrishPhoenix]

I also wouldn't call Clayton from Tarzan a twist villain. Throughout most of the movie it's deliberately made pretty obvious.

[@Lauren_210]

Agreed. I was 3 years old when Tarzan came out and even I was able to know that Clayton would be the villain from start to finish. His jerky, posh attitude and actions were very clear. In reality, Toy Story 2 was the one that started off this trend, though at the time was a very rare concept for Disney and Pixar films to do (also funny how Toy Story 2 came out the same year as Tarzan).

[@brifox]

Honestly, I'd say Clayton is my least favorite of all of the Disney villains, period. He's just Gaston without any of the charisma or motivation that made Gaston a compelling villain. It really bugs me because Clayton has one of the best deaths of all of the villains, but it feels wasted on such a flat character.

[@Lauren_210]

@@brifox I agree with you on that, though there are other Disney villains I view worse than Clayton, but he isn't the best either (and yeah it would have been even better to have saved that kind of death on a more interesting villain). Despite the Renaissance era having the best balance between interesting heroes and villains for the majority of their films, there were some films during the end of that era that didn't quite reach that level of interesting/engaging villains like him and Shan Yu from Mulan.

[@brifox]

@@Lauren_210 And then there were cases like Hercules and Princess and the Frog where the villain was both the best (most enjoyable) and worst (had little to nothing to do with the main conflict/hero's arc) part of the movie. Shen Yu being just a flat scary videogame boss I was ok with, since the main conflict in Mulan was much more of hero vs society than anything else. Pretty much every main character in the movie is an antagonist to Mulan up until about 5 minutes before the end, so the movie didn't really need a super interesting and charismatic villain like Scar or Jafar.

[@kyleguajardo]

I also think Atlantis didn't really have a twist villain per say. It was more that Milo was unaware that the company he traveled with were the crusader mercenaries that they were, and most of them realized their ways at the end.

[@KirbyKips]

I love how Sonic Boom is so self aware. It’s like they’re roasting everybody even their own franchise.

[@ZbJeeBies]

KirbyKips _FUCKING. _*_GENIUS!_*

[@KirbyKips]

This show deserves an award.

[@halfdemonprince]

I don’t like it because what they’re saying is, “What where doing it stupid we know it’s stupid but we’re doing it anyway, and you can’t insult us because we beat you to the punch.”

[@KirbyKips]

40 XDDD Well maybe that’s one way of looking at it.

[@diegorojas2049]

One scene I loved was when they trolled all of the fanboys and bad fanfictions writers

[@jamesspinner7764]

There is at least one example of the "they aint coming back" rule. Up. It practically starts with a character dying and ends with another.

[@Lauren_210]

Also Finding Nemo with Marlin's wife and 399 of his children

[@archivedaccount5990]

Another example is Ray from The Princess & The Frog.

[@Lauren_210]

Matthew Cool And Tarzan’s biological human parents and Kala and Kerchak’s biological son, all whom were taken away by Sabor.

[@adampkalb]

@@Lauren_210 Yet Finding Nemo still wastes half a minute in the climax with Nemo playing dead after he passed out after breaking a net with other fish trapped in it. April 6, 2020, 10:23pm

[@StrongRex]

Lotso from Toy Story wasn't a twist villain. At least, not in the way you describe the others, in which the twist happens closer to the end of the film. He appears good for the first two scenes he's in, and his "twist" happens early enough that we can accept him as an actual, formidable villain. He's even given a backstory as to why he went the evil route. Clayton from Tarzan I don't believe is a twist villain. His motivation is pretty obvious to the audience from the beginning, just not to the characters until he betrayed them. Which leads me to ask, what made him think he was going to get away with that? What part of his plan gave him immunity from staging a mutiny and HIJACKING A SHIP?? I'm pretty sure they were still hanging people for that in that time period.

[@carlbloke8797]

ikr

[@harlannguyen4048]

StrongRex Funny that you said that people would have been hanged during that period...

[@brifox]

Twist villain or not, Clayton is one of my least favorite Disney villains period. He's not particularly clever, charismatic, motivated, or even all that competent of a villain. It was like they took Gaston, stripped him of everything that made him interesting or compelling as a character, and just doubled down on all of his "jerk" aspects. It also really bugs me that such a bland and boring character got one of the best deaths in all of Disney. Accidentally hanging himself is something that should have gone to someone more despicable like Frollo, so we get a stronger feeling of catharsis.

[@pinkiepierocks6360]

i agree honestly most people probably don't think too much of it since you know it's involving toys but lotso was a surprisingly dark villain in pixar i mean he tortures the other toys in the caterpillar room he lied to big baby telling him daisy didn't love him anymore and he nearly sent andy's toys to their deaths even after they just saved his life

[@maddieclarke258]

I think twist villains work best when the audience knows about their villainy before the hero does, even if it's just for a second before the hero makes the realization. It really builds up the tension towards the inevitable betrayal (if done well), allows the audience to connect with a villain for longer, and simultaneously keeps the heroes in the dark. I don't think people want entire scenes of exposition and the villain announcing their evil plan, but a simple look or a sentence of dialogue that clues the audience in earlier is usually pretty fun.

[@SpecialBeam]

23:41 You using that clip from Spongebob put the BIGGEST smile on my face. I haven't heard that in YEARS lmaooo

[@andrewdotmp4]

SBCannon dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum

[@kylesoler4139]

Has anyone remixed that yet?

[@djshy3]

Kyle Soler kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3_Pn35si7KgebM

[@hrama17]

hoopla

[@9TheMiddleMan9]

It's kind of Ironic that Sterling Archer is probably one of the best fathers in Adult Animation.

[@kydex8764]

9TheMiddleMan9 "kinda ironic"

[@SmashLiXs]

must be from learning examples on what not to do as a parent from dealing with his mom

[@makitstop]

what are you talking about theres...uh...that one from...um...oh and that other one from...um...maybe...huh...there has to be at least one...

[@themuttonqueen1076]

What about Bob Belcher?

[@9TheMiddleMan9]

I said ONE OF the best fathers in Adult Animation. Bob is family man and generally moral as a person, and is much more likely to be a good father...... Sterling is special because he is just as bad (probably worse) as most of the fathers Mr. Enter listed in terms of being an immoral person, but he is a strangely good Dad.

[@serenatsukino5252]

With Ariel's father, I don't think that he was too close minded, but rather he was too protective and didn't want her to get hurt.

[@dontspikemydrink9382]

well, too close minded of non seapeople I guess

[@generalstorm8381]

I agree with you, especially since in one scene after he destroys her collection, and sees her crying, he actually feels bad, unlike most of the other parents in Disney movies.

[@ChaoticButterfly]

@@dontspikemydrink9382" Well... when you take into account that humans killed his wife/her mother... and she's the most reminiscent _of_ the mother... it makes sense.

[@briarrosegael2015]

Why the hell doesn't he just his magical trident to turn Eric into a merman, that would have been interesting...

[@catalinamelo9932]

Like Marge Simpson, Buck and many other parents

[@taiasoncole8148]

What I think is the most interesting thing about quite a few of these cliches is how a lot of the ones you listed, were actually made to subvert tropes before them. The dumbass dad was meant to subvert the standard 50's father The tomboy "not like the other girls" girl was meant to subvert the girly girl token (like Smurfette) The twist villain was meant to subvert the evil just to be evil villains It really shows how subverting a trope can end up making more tropes.

[@blazerthedelphox]

Whoever thought up that line for Knuckles needs a raise.

[@softcrab3361]

Blazer the Delphox+ give that guy the biggest raise!

[@NishaPerson]

The Sonic Boom cartoon has a lot of lines like that in Season 2, its actually a really funny show now. Doing stuff like political humor and satire, its pretty great.

[@MikhailKutzow]

I think the worst part of the "fake death" cliche, from an artistic point of view, anyway, is that it's become so absurdly common that I tend to expect a character that dies in most media to actually be just fine. Having a character actually stay dead is now the twist, rather than them coming back to life. And by the point you realize they're not coming back, the moment's usually past to feel much over it. It's a cliche so bad and so overused that it negatively impacts the experience of stories that don't even use it. So I would say that it definitely deserves to be number one on this list.

[@fortynights1513]

I wouldn’t call it number one personally, but I don’t mind it being on here.

[@1fishmob]

11:05 the reason why the genie, timon and pumbaa, and characters like that work is because they actually HAD a reason to exist.

[@scottgaultney]

And they weren't just "comedy comedy comedy" all the time. They were allowed to have dramatic moments, show anger, fear, sadness, betrayal, and insecurity. They were actual characters who were more than just joke machines because the writers need someone to inject unneeded/unwanted 'humor'.

[@toribirdz]

I thought Kubo and the Two Strings was super interesting in the way it handled parenthood and death and in how it did stop-motion so beautifully without being Halloweeny.

[@Percival917]

ichibi drop Also, the way it handled it's comic relief character, the beetle guy, as well as how his role went SO FAR BEYOND THAT.

[@angeloffish]

ichibi drop Yeah, I agree. It is a great film that I am glad that I found.

[@pokechatter]

And the parents evolve beyond the nagging mother/idiot father cliche, though we don’t get to see it for long.

[@murciadoxial8056]

nothing says breaking the cliches like turning the mom into an annoying momkey...

[@reasyrandom]

I don't think ParaNorman was a bad movie. Sure it had characters like the Bully, the neglectful father, the bitchy sister and the dumb jock, but it also had good commentary on society and neglectful parenting is part of society. Also, neither of these cliché characters were bad characters, they may have started of as bland, but grew throughout the movie and it felt kind of natural. It's not the next Coraline, but it's enjoyable.

[@joanahkirk338]

Hans could've worked if instead of "haha! I'm the villain" he actually decided to kiss Anna, nothing happened, so he gets upset, giving up on saving her and then with some convincing from the duke of weaselton, he gives in to the idea that killing Elsa would be the only way to save the kingdom. It would still be a surprise villain without being an entirely new character

[@MelodicDragon97]

Jonah Kirk You just fixed the movie

[@EternalDahaka]

+Adventurous Adventurer Augustus Frozen was supposed to be an adaptation of the Snow Queen. I'm not sure how the original script would have went, but changing the entire plot over a song is stupid.

[@imthesadguyduh]

RHONDA HOWARD so sympathizing with villains is bad now??? Like I mean villains are supposed to be relatable due to to their flaws. Villains weren’t born evil. And I did see how harsh she was on the original story boards but like it would’ve made Elsa have even more depth as a character. Man the writers missed a perfect opportunity

[@GoldStorm07]

Nature vs nurture. Plenty of villains are bad because of their circumstances and how their personalities were impacted, plenty of other villains have malevolence inherent to them. Just as in real life.

[@azurai3934]

This would be much better than what we got.

[@aldenheterodyne2833]

1:29 Exception to the dumbass parent rule: Steven Universe. SU has great parental figures that genuinely try to help and support Steven. They are not perfect, but they definitely aren't absent or neglectful. Steven's dad (Greg) is pretty great- aside from living in a van. He supports his son, tries to learn from his mistakes, and tries to give his son the best advice that he can. He even allows his son to stay with the crystal gems because he recognizes that Steven needs to learn how to use his gem powers. He also helped the gems build a house for Steven to live in. Steven's mom- Rose Quartz, was excited at the notion of Steven being his own being. I got the impression that if Rose were alive, she would've been a very supportive and understanding mom. I also get the impression that Rose didn't think that all of the diamond stuff would come back to haunt them. Actually, I don't blame her. The diamonds didn't show up for literally thousands of years after the gem war, and why would they? They thought that there was no gems on earth. If Yellow hadn't made the cluster, they probably would never have been visited by the diamonds again. Steven has lots of mom/sister figures. Garnet is very supportive of Steven and encourages him to grow, learn and be himself. Pearl tries to make sure that Steven is safe, well fed, and well educated on gem culture. She teaches Steven how to fight. Amethyst, who is the least motherly and most sisterly of the three initially encourages Steven to have fun and enjoy life. She has similar self-esteem issues and they generally try to help each other overcome them. She is constantly encouraging him and trying to boost his self-esteem. In more recent episodes, she has learned to put Steven's feelings above her own.

[@1978garfield]

Steven is raised by freaks who have sex in front of him.

[@robbieking4070]

In terms of the spooky stop motion trope: *Kubo and the Two Strings* a whimsical, imaginative epic adventure

[@kittychu7]

igor caique that's not the main focus of the movie.

[@Adamguy2003]

It had plenty of spooky moments, though.

[@kittychu7]

igor caique yes but a lot of the movie is focused on the heroes and family.

[@HigginsIsHere]

"Oh my fucking good, how are you two even worse separate?!" 😂😂😂😂

[@BewareTheForce]

You do realize that Laika and Aardman are the only two companies that have managed to consistently make stop motion films, right? Laika made all the creepy stop motion you were talking about.

[@liamdude5722]

In Zootopia, the parents became un-closed minded because of their daughter. In How to Train Your Dragon 2, Hiccup's father becomes a much better character. Also, if there was a pointless mother character in Aladdin, you'd complain that Jasmine's mother has nothing to do.

[@Numbuh8578]

True

[@47ratsinahoodie]

Well they either could have given the mother something to do like Moana's mom's (albeit small) role in helping Moana find Maui or they could have made Jasmine's lack of a mom mean something to her.

[@tyrantking9000]

Did we even _see_ Jasmine's mother? It's been forever since I saw Aladdin, but I don't recall Jasmine's mother even being _present_ in the movie at all.

[@nadroji6549]

@ liamdude5 While, yes, at the end the parents become un-closed minded, but for the vast majority of the movie & where they impacted the story & character(s) the most, they were too closed minded to accept their children's lifestyle/choices & that's their character for 90%/95% of the film, that's one of or the main conflict of the film. Also, you're assuming that if Jasmine's mother was added to the film she would be pointless, how exactly? Would she not have impacted on the charcters/Jasmine? Would she just seems like a background character? While it's possible, Jasmine's mother could have also been a well written character & if she was pointless, then having her alive & having her dead would change nothing, you either have an overdone cliche or another useless charter that would be better of not existing in the first place, which would be a legitimate criticism.

[@whitethunder9064]

@@tyrantking9000 No, because she's dead.

[@IrishPhoenix]

I feel like the way to make twist villains work is to have them still feel like the same character throughout. I'd consider Charles Muntz from Up a good example of this. He becomes the villain sometime after we first meet him, but he still feels like the same character afterwards. As Carl's idol, as the neutral character we meet and as the villain, his intention to get the bird and go through any measure possible to do so is consistent.

[@Lauren_210]

"You can't count on anyone, especially your heroes." - Syndrome (The Incredibles) It seems like this has become one of Pixar's mottos. This also happens too in Coco with Ernesto (Miguel's idol) turning out to be the villain the whole time and did fucked up shit to get to where he was and was able to hide and cover the evidence for about 80-90 years...that's a new record.

[@squidleystudios277]

That comment from Knuckles was surprisingly smart.

[@PonmonofNuggetor]

Squidley Studios Ironic how one of the stupidest characters in history can completely destroy any ‘breaking of stereotypes’ argument, but that was probably intentional

[@FixTheWi-Fi]

Worst part is that was the joke.

[@squidleystudios277]

A Person With A Name Yeah. It's sad that it's the only reason they'd let him be smart.

[@Rockymann27]

Most of knuckles incarnations dont have him as being stupid. He was a bit dense at times, but never stupid.

[@fkostyuk]

Rockymann27 Yeah he's more of the mysterious loner type

[@Twentydragon]

I liked Bellweather as a twist villain because her story worked and fell into place as soon as it was revealed. That is an essential part of making something like that work. Hans... didn't. He just popped up out of nowhere, and even his Aside Glances were basically retconned to force him into the role. _Frozen_ would have been a much stronger movie without a villain at all. Aside Glance: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsideGlance

[@sonyawormley9317]

5, The suspicious girl 4, Outdated memes, slang, dances, and jokes 3, Forced females 2, Mary sue and Gary stu Dishonorable mentions Gross out gags for no reason Product placement 1, The Gazoo

[@EYTPS]

Sally Acorn and Mrs. Brisby is the perfect way to do that female-stereotype-breaking shit properly.... Eh, not so much, Brisby, but that's more than just because she walks around and has information given to her by others until that magical necklace turns on out of never and helps her save her kids.

[@imthescatman3505]

Yes

[@carlbloke8797]

And Sandy Cheeks

[@JEKaviator]

The Incredibles have good parents

[@uhetsberger]

I wish they skipped a few years in time for the sequel... 😢

[@joeyopenshaw]

I seriously thought that #1 would be the ¨Mumbling Crush¨ cliche. You´ve talked about it A LOT.

[@kyletowers9662]

i was expecting "overly long gags" due to #1's intro

[@bearowl4101]

I was expecting the 'secret fact that the show will never tell you' cliché, like the Krabby Patty formula from SpongeBob SquarePants or Zuko's mum's whereabouts from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

[@PonmonofNuggetor]

I was expecting ‘Status Quo is God’ to be 1

[@jamainegardner4193]

these should've been on the list

[@itayarbel2008]

I thought it would be true love's kiss saving the day, but i guess that kinda stopped being a thing recently.

[@philosophicalphil6611]

Donkey from Shrek was more than just a comic relief character, he actually affected the story and the character arcs.

[@nanuqo2006]

Only in the first and fourth one

[@dwainsimmons3447]

Eddie Murphy made Donkey positively iconic!

[@WeirdWonderful]

Hercules DID have comic relief though. Hades' two bumbling minions that I could honestly never see this chararacter ever having. He's the Lord of the Underworld, and he burns down forests when he gets pissed off. Pain and Panic just don't fit the aesthetic at all.

[@JoyStar]

I never minded them. In fact I actually always related to Panic a lot as a kid so I really liked him.

[@murciadoxial8056]

yes, he points that out in this video

[@pepperonipizza8200]

However, Pain and Panic were often the gateways to why Hades did a lot of his comedic stunts. Hades had to be pissed off directly at someone otherwise he'd be wining more than anything.

[@pop4843]

For #1 (spoilers), I have personal experience confirming Mr. Enter's speech about how this can hurt a kid. My mother died when I was a little kid. I watched some of these movies when I still wasn't over it, and I felt bitter and awful that she couldn't just *poof-* be back. It felt that I was cheated out of something that was supposed to rightfully happen. Doing that cliche in your movie can genuinely hurt a child, especially one who's younger- i.e., a seven year old.

[@zenoftw]

I definitely wouldn't say Meg's "fakeout death" is a good example of this trope. Her apparent demise and revival were an important plot point and stepping stone for the character of Hercules. I mean you're dealing with the concept of divinity and true heroism, and I feel that the scene in the River Styx was perfectly handled.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

zenoftw it also gave a way for Hercules to put Hades into his doom

[@retosius7962]

agreed, when dealing with gods death is not truly set in stone like it is in real life, and in a story where it actually relates to the plot, you should go with the revival of a character.

[@supermal112233]

True, we are talking about a movie with an afterlife, gods, demigods and magical objects/powers and all that.

[@WaterShowsProd]

Yes, I didn't see Meg's death as a fake-out but rather the final obstacle the hero had to overcome in the climax of the story; before the dance party scene.

[@david2869]

That just shows that the fake death trope is older than Jesus. Enough already!

[@LegoandmoviereviewsBlogspot]

28:46 I was honestly shocked when Bing Bong in Inside Out died and never came back. I thought the fake-out was definitely going to be pulled. That just makes me respect the movie so much more.

[@TheHero136]

This really makes me appreciate the Incredibles. Great Dad character, amazing villain, female characters who are actually interesting, no comic relief except maybe Jack Jack and if so he easily wins against the others, real tension, and its just otherwise an amazing movie.

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

I'd say what makes Jack Jack a good comic relief is that he's a baby with no control over his powers so the comedic things aren't due to maliciousness or extreme stupidity, just a normal baby doing normal baby things while transforming into different forms. It's different from the minions doing random shit because they have no brain cells between them or Patrick literally admitting he does stupid stuff on purpose, Jack Jack is a baby, everything he does is merely an accident and the worst that happens is it freaks people out, not holding off the plot to getting characters hurt. As for the female characters, neither Violet, Helen or Edna were 'I'm better than males', Violet was shy and trying to control her powers, Helen was trying to keep her family together and Edna was simply an eccentric genius, even if there were no male characters they'd still be the same where as girl power characters thrive in being better at men and they thus need a man ironically.

[@jaschabull2365]

Amen to that. I'm honestly pretty scared about the sequel, the Monsters Inc. prequel kind of made me nervous about what Pixar could do to their old stories. And what Tom said is part of the reason I prefer Violet to Merida. That and I find her more relatable, being relatively introverted and not all that ambitious.

[@jaschabull2365]

+John Ploopy Even then, that was mainly a "enough moaning and moping around, you're a superhero, act like one" moment.

[@42Fossy]

John Ploopy It wasn't really a "girl power" moment - she didn't say "go and do that because you're a strong woman that don't need no man!", she was saying "you're a superhero, pull yourself together and act like one!" It wasn't gender-specific in any way.

[@jaschabull2365]

The only real "girl power" moment I remember in The Incredibles was actually at the very beginning where Helen was telling her interviewer she didn't want to "leaving the saving the world to the men". Ironically, the rest of the movie made her look like the wiser one by being more able to adjust to domestic life than Bob, whose itch for action was played as a bit of a weakness.

[@Xream223]

Bens grandfather from ben10 (the original) is the only animated parental figure that cares about his grandson and daughter's well-being

[@foxymetroid]

It could be argued that pre-Flanderiation Homer Simpson cared about his family. He was an idiot and had has flaws, but he usually at least tried to do what he thought was best for them. There was also the grandparents from Hey Arnold. They were kinda crazy (especially the grandmother), but they were always happy to help out, maybe give some advice while they were at it.

[@crono3015]

Never seen Wolf Children, huh?

[@TheSpawnfan]

deskman10 if we're counting parental figures, John Silver from Treasure Planet should count, even for a short time, Silver was as a father should be to Jim, Helen Parr also counts i think, as a parental figure.

[@Xream223]

Crono you know that does not count

[@jaredhamon3411]

Both of May's parent's were present, competent and loving in the Pokemon anime.

[@undead923]

As for the Parent part, what about Bob from God, The Devil and Bob? Also, the next review will be a rollercoaster of a ride

[@motorcycleman115]

TheUndeadGamer or Steven Universe.

[@KingOpenReview]

All about animation In Steven Universe it was important to the story.

[@minigungaming5915]

All about animation Dead parent trope

[@motorcycleman115]

MinigunGaming well sure it uses the dead parent trope, but consider this: If Steven were, say, poofed or killed, or his gem was surgically removed from him, Rose would most likely regenerate. Whether rose is dead or not is actually a mystery, and while it still comes across as “the parent is missing”, rose has come across as a major character and even technically interacted with Steven in “storm in the room” Also, I was actually talking about how Greg as a parent isn’t awful

[@minigungaming5915]

All about animation Alright fair enough

[@librasuperstar3779]

I remember hearing somewhere that the reason Alex Hirsch made the primary adult character in Gravity Falls a great uncle was because a great uncle letting the kids do whatever would make way more sense then actual parents doing that. There’s even a joke about this in the wax figure episode (something along the lines of “a responsible parent would have an issue with this...good thing I’m an uncle”) plus grunkle Stan does actually know about the dangerous parts of gravity falls and in many episodes actively fights alongside dipper and Mabel. He actually cares about them. Another reason why Gravity Falls is great

[@isaacstevenson2960]

That’s true. It’s kinda nice to see two kids not deal with parental problems for a change. And just for that and more, I’ll always love and respect Grunkel Stan(as well as Alex for bringing alive one of animations best shows)

[@ColossalRay]

I was a tomboy growing up and I sucked at sports and generally lacked interest in them. There is more than one way to be a tomboy! I liked climbing trees, skateboarding, camouflage patterns, torturing barbies and having short hair. Who cares if I sucked at football?

[@Spacekid172]

Chell Ray XD. Same.

[@irregulargamer1352]

No one does. I've seen plenty of guys suck at everything athletic. You're already steps above them.

[@usermcskull4713]

Wait, TORTURING BARBIES??! WHAT THE FUCK?!

[@ColossalRay]

Power of L not literally. Just cutting off their hair, removing parts of their face with nail polish remover (my favourite was turning her into an ugly pirate) and hiding her head, legs and arms from my sister. I liked messing them up because people kept buying them for me when I wasn't interested. Plus, it was funny making something beautiful into Jimmy coat hanger leg. I gave her sick tats and left one in a drain for years when I launched it out the window and couldn't get it back lmao

[@usermcskull4713]

Chell Ray Ooh, I thought you just got a knife and than, y'know..stabbed them a lot

[@Dommbuscus]

To be honest, Bojack's parents are very deep, well thought out characters in season 4. And Hollyhock's 11 father's are just great

[@verdethestarwarrior1088]

Huh...Who knew Knuckles would have something intelligent to say for once in his life

[@Sheparddd15]

“It’s not possible to create a interesting villain and a twist villain.” Ahem....Coco?

[@RavenStarMedia]

I'd argue that the twist with Ernesto was how villainous he was, rather than that he was a villain at all. Miguel making the connection that Ernesto was his ancestor who left the family to pursue music doesn't paint too flattering a picture of the guy to begin with.

[@viewtifulmorannp6185]

You know, Diego from Ice Age was going to die in the first movie (Take the scene when he tells the gang to catch up with the humans but without him coming back), but they changed it because in the first screening the children cried over his death when the movie ended. I think the movie would've been more solid with that ending and probably would've prevented the dumb-ass sequels (at least the second movie was good).

[@jinhunterslay1638]

*FUUUCK* children!!!! They ruin perfectly good endings!

[@viewtifulmorannp6185]

I think they wanted to but they were forced by the producers to change it.

[@imthesadguyduh]

I like Diego but like dude. You’re right about the sequels. Waaaaaay too many.

[@TeasilaNova]

They couldn't let Deigo rest in peace. Aint that a son of a bitch.

[@tritter15]

Keep in mind that this IS supposed to be a kid’s movie, so changing it because the target demographic didn’t like it is actually justified.

[@admnov93]

For Disney Apparently is more easy kill the protagonist's parent then Love interest

[@crono3015]

Fullmetal Alchemist too.

[@mozardthebest]

Rian Power Fuck off.

[@mozardthebest]

Rian Power Tangled is from Disney and from 2010 and doesn't have "a dead parent in there, a little fart jokes, a dumbass moral and a happy romance". I don't even know of a Dreamworks movie like that, and Illumination was always trash (except for the first Despicable Me), and I can't think of a movie of theirs that had that.

[@mozardthebest]

What?

[@gin5138]

"Not aging up your characters" **shows Ash from the Pokémon anime** _fuckin' genius_

[@Spacekid172]

Cat Scratch Studios XD. My thoughts exactly.

[@barrytone2400]

Cat Scratch Studios wait, is that sarcasm?

[@gin5138]

Barry Tone Nah, I said it was genius because Ash from Pokémon is infamous for never aging.

[@farrelsamuel1164]

Pietro Lucchese and his friends also can't age

[@Raptor_Ren]

It would have been more powerful to see him grow and become the greatest pokemon trainer. It could have ended Ash's journey after a few regions with him finally winning a league, beating the elite 4, etc., and a new character being introduced that is inspired by Ash to try and do the same.

[@wofi784]

You’re the first person I’ve seen who doesn’t like the “eternal kid” aspect of characters. Thank you, glad I’m not the only one.

[@nachoalvarez7171]

Say hello to the Pokemon comiunity.

[@adampkalb]

That is unfortunately the point of Twelve Forever and Meghan Walsh Madsen McCarthy. April 6, 2020, 6:30pm

[@emperorgameling5064]

@@adampkalb Nobody cares about the time you made your comments

[@KTChamberlain]

Dad's that weren't portrayed as dumbasses in animations: Bob Belcher, Greg Universe, Professor Utonium, Rick Sanchez, Hakoda, Tenzin, Milo Murphy's dad, Rafael Diaz (he's eccentric, but he's not a dumbass), Daikichi Kawachi (true, he's not Rin's father, but he's a good father figure to her nonetheless), Jake Morgendorffer (like Rafael Diaz he's eccentric, but not a dumbass), Hank Hill (close-mindedness aside mind you), Fa Zu from Mulan, Doc Saturday, Chloe Park's dad from We Bare Bears, Mr. Kusakabe from My Neighbor Totoro, Dr. Briefs from Dragon Ball/Z/Super. Those were all I could think of in one sitting. Side note: I know That 70's Show is live action but I wanna acknowledge Red Forman for subverting this cliché--he wasn't a dumbass, but he famously called almost every other character a dumbass.

[@Pundit07]

KTChamberlain Would Professor Membrane from Invader Zim count?

[@DoCaMakesArt]

Exactly. He may not be a dumbass, but he's a jerkass. I think that goes into the cliché.

[@christiandauz3742]

A normal dad adjusting to an abnormal situation with his children

[@Naivuren]

Darkwing is also a great dad, even if he struggles 'cause of being a single parent while having a very energetic child

[@KTChamberlain]

Bruna Lennert // Oh, you're right. I stupidly forgot to include Drake Mallard from Darkwing Duck. While we're on the subject of superheroes, I also forgot to mention Roy Harper (Red Arrow/Arsenal/Speedy) in Young Justice since he's a single father raising his daughter Lianne--he did at one point struggle with addiction, but by all accounts he was sober by the time he reached fatherhood.

[@Mickspad]

My biggest problem with the whole "male vs female" stereotype bit is the fact that if people want to have good female characters that show they're strong, they throw out show, don't tell, that's one of the many reasons I actually love the show RWBY, because they just have good female characters without saying "Hey look! We have strong female characters!"

[@lukebytes5366]

this trope is sorta hypocritical in a sence. what this is really saying is that: "if you have a strong female, say it out loud! prove to the public that is can be done! even though it's 2017 and equal rights were here long before this time! GO FEMALES!" hell, media in general even put men down. (not including people of course. fuck you anita sarkesian.) my point is, i don't understand why this trope existed. yeah, there still is some sexism and racism around every corner no matter how much you hate it, but the sexist/racist attack won't happen for a long time. if ever. and if their ever will be, it will most likley be against white men at this point. i hate feminism so much sometimes.

[@Mickspad]

Luke Hqyes which is why Knuckles explaining feminism is fucking genius

[@YamatoFukkatsu]

Luke Hqyes I really despise the whole social justice bullshit myself (and I've been a very huge advocate of GamerGate as a result). I mean, there's just so much hypocrisy and irony in these people's logic. The idea that we should fight hatred and bigotry towards minorities by being hateful and bigoted towards majorities who did absolutely nothing wrong except being born with the wrong skin color and gender. The idea that representation matters so much that they need to shoehorn in a token character that's itself a one-dimensional stereotype (and if said tokenism isn't there, the media in question should be burned to the ground for being Nazi propaganda). The idea that radicalized practitioners of a certain religion being called out for acting highly intolerant (to the point of murdering whoever doesn't fall in line with their beliefs) is highly intolerant. The fact that they're infantilizing the very people they claim to be fighting for by acting as if they're too weak and stupid to have any authority of their own, and if those "oppressed" people dare speak up against this, they're a traitor or they're too indoctrinated with internalized misogyny/racism. I just constantly find myself astounded at how hard it is for them to see that they are in fact the very bigots they claim to be against.

[@Mickspad]

Luna, or T Challa Loud/Mama yeah and it's free online, but warning: the first season SUCKS (oh and the trailers for the show are technically episode 0) they're in the middle of season 5 now

[@Mickspad]

Luna, or T Challa Loud/Mama kzbin.info/www/bejne/poq6Y3qjfadortU First of 4 trailers

[@the13throse]

Yeah, the fake-out death is just annoying at this point. Either kill off a character for good, or don't kill them off at all. Hell, a lot of movies that use this trope didn't actually NEED a character to die in them! Characters should only be killed if it helps the plot or furthers character development, or to show the severity of a situation previously thought to be inconsequential. Not to fill some nonexistant standard or make kids kind of sad for a few seconds, and DEFINITELY not just for shock value.

[@porkyminch1640]

MOTHER 3 does fake deaths right they kill of only 2 characters and bring them back but they are not the same whatsoever, in fact, they are vastly different from what they once were its like they are a whole new person and it doesn't happen in the span of 2 minutes

[@CrasherX2000]

Porky Minch Mega Man X2 did it right because a central focus of the game was collecting three parts of Zero through the combined efforts of X and Dr Cain Which makes Zero’s sudden reappearance in X6 that much more jarring, ESPECIALLY when that reason for coming back is so BAD considering the shape he was in at the end of X5

[@adampkalb]

@@porkyminch1640 MegaMind also did it right because the fake-out death was the point of the plot. April 6, 2020, 6:28pm Metro Man's death fake-out lasted for a majority of the story, and he intentionally faked Megamind out so he could retire from being a superhero, so I have no idea what Enter will make of that.

[@adampkalb]

Would you believe me if I told you that Bojack Horseman had an entire episode dedicated to a fake-out death for Bojack and you did not see that episode? It is called The View From Halfway Down. April 6, 2020, 6:31pm

[@adampkalb]

I always viewed Wonder Park (2019) as a gray area when it comes to fake-out deaths. The premise of the movie is that June's dark feelings nearly consume her and she has to face those feelings to save her Wonder Land when she has to deal with the possibility of losing her mom to cancer. June Bailey faces her dark feelings and keeps that light inside her shining the whole time her mother was away. At the end I was happy when June's mom came back home and survived her cancer. You could argue that this story could play out the same way if June's mom really died before June went to Awe Sum Camp and set the main plot in motion, but maybe Wonder Park's writers saw this Animated Atrocities video from 2017 during production, and figured out how to create good parents in animation who are open-minded to their kids' desires, and how to spare children's fear of death without lying to them or giving them a false hope. We don't need to know what was going on with June's mother, and as long as we don't see what she was going through, we do not have to worry about any death fake-out because Josh Applebaum and Andre Nemec cut out the middle man. We were never led to believe that June's sick mother was truly dead, because we know just as little about it as June. The point of ambiguous situations like this is, we should hope for the best, but also prepare for and assume the worst in case our mother doesn't beat her cancer. April 6, 2020, 6:55pm

[@AndrewsMagicandMore]

Funny thing about Homer is that he wasn't always a "Jerkass" dad; in fact, one of the earliest episodes of the show had him asking Lisa why she "refused to play dodgeball because she was sad". There have been instances when Homer did acknowledge his kids and would do anything for his family.

[@debater452]

Homer hasn't been a jerk for two decades

[@josiahtheawkward6008]

6:39 That Knuckles rant was amazing

[@whenthemusicsover6028]

+Vicky Barkley Season 2 Ep. 38 "Eggman's Anti-Gravity Ray"

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

To be fair, Dil was a very significant character in the movie since he was pretty much the cause of much of their trouble, to the point that even Tommy had had enough. And then we get to the point where he get some character development and legitimately becomes OK.

[@carlbloke8797]

MetroidJunkie yeah at least in the movie Dil actually was meaningful but unfortunately the show completely ruined everything and made Dil contribute nothing

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

Guess they just didn't know what to do with him after that.

[@hunterolaughlin]

@@VGamingJunkieVTConsidering the main gimmick of the show is how babies see and interpret things through their perspective differently from adults, it would’ve been an interesting angle to explore how a few month old baby views the world and considering how limited his vocabulary would be, they could give him an inner monologue-esque voice to convey more of Dil’s thoughts. I feel like I’m putting more effort into coming up with ideas for Dil’s character to do than the writers themselves.

[@BogWitchGrindset]

Bob Belcher and Linda Belcher are actually good parents. Also Bob isn't exactly a dumbass, he's not book smart but he is very practical and pragmatic. Linda's maybe a bit of a nag, but she's also good natured.

[@cradica]

Ubbo-Sathla I was thinking the same thing

[@Leostar-Regalius]

worst parents go to freaking hank and peggy hill

[@MissFlow]

JOHN silver from treasure planet is more a redeemed villain than a twist villain, really. Or a fusion of that, dunno, he's kinda hard to categorize.

[@wilsonkierankitsune]

I don't think Judy's parents are bad, they're just worried about her safety and their advice is actually sound "it's alright to have dreams as long as you don't believe in them too much" it sounds harsh but they know her path will be hard and they want her to at least be more realistic

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Wilson Bennett And Judy's dream of becoming a cop could get her killed. They're not bad people, just overprotective.

[@GanzoHasashi1911]

I was hoping I would find this comment

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Exactly, MrEnter likes to harp on Judy's parents being close-minded and terrible, but their fears are well founded, bunnies aren't physically cut out for the more challenging parts of being a cop in Zootopia, and even with extensive training Judy struggles with alot of things in her job, the ZPD was not designed with bunnies in mind. And of course it would be hard for a bunny cop to apprehend a large criminal, and Judy very nearly gets stepped on by an elephant. The fact she graduated is extraordinary but realistically she should have failed based on her physical limitations. Same way Greg Universe is overprotective of his son Steven, like Judy's parents they just don't want their child to get killed.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Yeah, sometimes I think MrEnter either doesn't do his research, or ignores evidence to the contrary of his points, or at least he accentuates the negatives in the media he reviews. Some stuff deserves the hate and to be called Animated Atrocities, stuff like Post-cancellation Family Guy making fun of abuse victims, rape, sociopathic behaviour, etc, or Modern Spongebob episodes like One Coarse Meal, mind fucks like Tentacolino, trite like Puppy in my Pocket, etc, there's not really anything in Zootopia that deserves to be placed in the same category. Just because is uses cliches he personally dislikes, even when it uses them well, he paints them like they're horrible.

[@carlbloke8797]

Greatsaiyakirby I don't agree with some of his points either like you said here but no need to be harsh on the guy. Plus not sure if you know this but Spongebob has actually improved

[@willeeuhm]

Would you consider Syndrome from The Incredibles a twist villain? If so, I'd consider that the best usage of the trope, but even then it's not like we see him interacting with the main characters very much before the reveal. The only twist is that he looked up to Mr. Incredible when he was a kid, and then he's shown to be the one plotting against the family later on.

[@papershadow]

To repeat a comment I made on another thread, I don't think Syndrome counts as a twist villain along these lines because the movie never makes a concentrated effort to play him as a good guy and then reverse it. Even when he's not strictly evil, he's still treated as a nuisance and a problem, and he's sinister even prior to his proper reveal. It's more payoff to foreshadowing and a downfall for a once morally upright character.

[@crinsombone5380]

@@papershadow They don't treat him like a villain either. I thought he was more of a joke in the movie when I first saw it

[@ffjreviews9029]

I don’t think so because #1 he was revealed halfway through the movie similar to Lotso and #2 the twist was more of the fact that he was a Fanboy that Mr Incredible didn’t give a crap about, unlike someone like Hans which was cared about by Anna just coming out of nowhere. in conclusion: no, Syndrome isn’t a twist villain, but if he is, then he along with Lotso are the best examples of twist villains

[@munromister777]

Technically dead parents affect the plot of Aladdin. If Aladdin had one parent who was still in his life (as opposed to dead mother and absentee father), he wouldn't be a street rat orphan living in a hovel across from the palace. It also technically affects Jasmine's plot too, since there's only the Sultan to push back against Jafar as a parental figure, and he's not that competent.

[@jaschabull2365]

From what I remember, earlier conceptions of that movie did have Aladdin's mother as a character. I seem to remember the Aladdin from 1001 Nights was Chinese, and lived with his mother who was basically Example Zero of the Asian Parent trope, and the Disney adaptation considered following suit, but changed it later on. I think one of the deleted songs was one where Aladdin sung about how he wished he could please her for once. Though I guess in a way, if she'd stuck around, she wouldn't be all that different from Triton or Django anyway. I've heard it argued that the reason mothers are often absent in fiction is that they hold the story back; mothers are there to take care of you, so without them, a hero has to take care of himself, and has no one to turn to when it comes to resolving his issues. And of course, that's another reason parents are often neglectful in fiction too, as they'd solve everything for their children if they didn't. That still doesn't really excuse sitcoms though.

[@mozardthebest]

munromister777 Don't say "technically", that is literally how it is. And that's not a bad thing.

[@wolf1066]

My youngest daughter revealed her jaded attitude to "Disney Death" at age 9 when we were watching a movie - it wasn't even a Disney movie or an animation - and they went for the emotionally manipulative death fakeout. My daughter piped up "don't worry, someone will give him a magic Disney kiss and he'll be all right" - she sounded _bored_ Trying to manipulate the emotions of the audience with a fake death is just disrespectful and overdoing it in the way they have robs death of its impact and completely nullifies any of the stakes throughout the movie. Bad enough that we already know that the hero's not going to be killed off midway through the movie (likewise the villain) regardless of the danger without throwing in a fake death scene as well. My children are already well acquainted with the permanency of death, having lost beloved people early in their lives, so the Disney Death/Fakeout/miraculous resurrection crap doesn't give them the wrong idea of death (it occurs to me that this might be _why_ my kids are so cynical of the trope) but I can appreciate that it could very well give kids a skewed outlook on death and dying.

[@sonic8005]

Well... actually Zootopia and How To Train Your Dragon and Little Mermaid.... on the latter two, one can't believe what his son has become in that he doesn't want to kill dragons but instead befriend them.... after he believes that said boy's own mother was killed by dragons, along with many of his friends who have missing limbs thanks to dragon attacks. The Little Mermaid's King Triton is pissed at Ariel because humans usually kill a very large number of fish who he likes and go around his ocean taking them to kill and eat, and his beloved daughter wants to go up and "do the swim" with a prince she saw once if you know what I mean. Zootopia, the prejudice around the characters is so extensively there already in the film with other characters that, you can see it in their daughter Judy who has to challenge said prejudice inside herself in order to progress as a character and to make the plot go on. Also Judy's parents grow away from their prejudice too. I mean, I hate to call you out on this and defend a tired cliché as you say, but let's face it, you can't develop a character if they're already perfect. You can't have a story without conflict.

[@brendaneichler5480]

Not to be rude, but the father figure in the last two only that character development (or at least the majority of that development) in the sequel.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

sonic8005 Exactly, and Judy's parents' close-mindedness makes sense. In the world they live in, people like Judy are outliers and Judy's dream job is dangerous (many times moreso for bunnies). They are just trying to protect her and they themselves grew up in a society where bunnies are expected to live a certain way. They get better after they see her prove them wrong and her returning to them presents a major plot point. A deleted scene shows Judy's mom overcomes her bias even sooner. Just saying the movie explains why Judy's parents are closed minded and their views make sense in their world. They're not malicious or abusive, just overprotective.

[@uanime1]

Zootopia would have been better if the parent's biases had been shown to be justified, such as Judy having trouble fighting larger animals. The children are always right, adults are always wrong trope keeps robbing the stories of actual conflict.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Judy's parent's biases were given some weight after she was attacked by Gideon Grey, and it's a general attitude in Zootopia that Foxes are shifty and untrustworthy, being raised in that environment makes it understandable that they, and Judy, would internalise that bias. The children are not always right, we see prejudiced children bully Nick in his backstory, Gideon doesn't realise the error of his ways until after he's grown up, and Judy was naive to think she could just become a Cop without some major hurdles. These are all lessons she learns as an adult, as do her parents, Nick, and Gideon.

[@spicefox1684]

Bob's Burgers have good parents! Not the 'dumbass and nag' trope there, right?

[@SuperSwordman1]

SpiceFox Linda's a pretty big nag

[@shaangraham]

Not always.

[@queencleopatra007]

I love Bob's Burgers for exactly that reason. It makes the family so much more relatable

[@rashadpreston7389]

Hank & Peggy Hill are great parents.

[@Reebz0r]

​@@rashadpreston7389 START PUFFIN' BOY!

[@PunishedBlake]

More writers and other creative types writing for characters need to listen to Knuckles and also Mr. Enter, but mostly Knuckles.

[@reasyrandom]

When I create female characters, I simply ditch the "Girls can do everything boys can do" mentality. It's 2017, that statement is pretty much stating the obvious. I have a character that actually likes fighting but hates sports and fights solely for self-defense. She idolises superheroes and videogame heroines.

[@azathoth7587]

Tomoko Kuroki This made me chuckle. I am a failure...

[@PSqqp]

Danny Hatake Female characters can care about women’s rights and not be a stereotype. It’s perfectly natural to care about something that affects them, but she doesn’t have to be an activist or be totally vocal about it. It can be something as minor as kicking someone in the gut for saying something stupid on the matter and leaving it at that.

[@PSqqp]

Danny Hatake Then sounds good, man.

[@BATCHARRO]

He's rougher than the rest of the.

[@SuperAbdul19]

I think Bob and Linda from Bob’s Burgers are good parents.

[@Arxeu]

There's one cliche in animated movies I hate the most, which you didn't mention here. It's the mandatory sad moment in 3/4th part of the movie. Even if the movie is entirely comedy, there's at least one scene where the main character lied to others/acted like asshole ect. and for the next few minutes we see him being sad while the sad music is playing.

[@Arxeu]

Yes, that's the thing, more or less.

[@taiasoncole8148]

It stuck out like a sore thumb in Moana when Maui got upset at Moana for honestly no reason and left just so there could be a "sad moment"

[@MrTetrisz]

Touko White well he tied his identity to his hook and when it got damaged,he took it as an attack on himself and to lose the hook is to lose himself is my explanation.But I felt that moment felt forced since I saw the " you are the person that defines yourself" lesson the moment he got mad

[@taiasoncole8148]

MrTetrisz I get that... But I don't know why he got mad at Moana

[@JeffreyThrash]

I remember that cliche sticking out in The Secret Life of Pets. A particularly heinous example in live action movies is the incredibly forced fight scene in Adam Sandler's Grown Ups...or Blended...or any of Adam Sandler's recent output...