Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli vs. Ultramarathoners-Who Is More Impressive?

[@gandalfolorin-kl3pj]

Melon Geek, Once again, you prove our dear Professor to have known very well what he was talking about. He knew, based on his experiences, and based on his knowledge of historic eras like the Middle Ages when everyone walked and only the rich had horses, that the Three Hunters could make this trek in the time he allotted for them. The key to Tolkien's legendarium being so real for all of us is the fact that he never made anything unbelievable. He made everything work logically, from the seasons, to the character traits, to the clothing, to the landscapes. All of it was realistic, even when he was obviously discussing something unreal. It takes a lot of cheek and a colossal lack of life experience to call out Tolkien on something as ordinary as the ability to run a long distance. Tolkien knew it, and the characters he had drawn were realistically able to do it. Great work, as always. Namarie.

[@exantiuse497]

One thing we should keep in mind is that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli ran that distance entirely on rough terrain presumably with no roads to travel on. Walking and especially running in roadless terrain is much slower and more tiring than running on a road, and we can't compare it to ultramarathon records (which to my understanding are always ran on some sort of road or at least a trail). An experienced hiker might travel 20 miles in a day in rough terrain and that's considered very difficult. I don't think the feat is impossible, especially since the three aren't normal humans, but it is very impressive as Eomer notices

[@anarionelendili8961]

The rohirrim are horsemen. Walking farther than the stables is already impressive, and traveling long distance on foot is unheard of. They are the Americans of Middle-earth, horses = cars. :P Jokingly, of course, but it could be part of the reason why Eomer found it so impressive.

[@xXSirKRXx]

Waita minute, you might be onto somthing

[@morganrrhaze]

I was going to point this out

[@emiralid]

I am the guy that asked the question. Thanks a lot Joshua! Very informative and fun video!

[@greatscott175]

"'Strider' is too poor a name; 'Wingfoot' I name you!" made me laugh when I first read the books as a kid. Tolkien was more than capable of twinges of humour.

[@tom_curtis]

In Nice in France, there are approximately 11 hours of sunlight between dawn and dusk in late February. That is important because it is the approximate latitude of the Emyn Muil (assuming The Shire and Rivendel are at approximately the latitude of southern England). Based on the Tolkien Gateway article on the Three Hunters, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas start around dusk and run through the night and on until dusk before resting. They then run through the daylight only for the next two days before meeting Eomer early on the subsequent day. That gives approximately 24+11+11 = 46 hours of travel time; during which they covered 4-5 leagues or (nearly precisely) 250 km - an average pace of 5.43 km per hour. That is approximately 10% faster than an average walking speed. Another way of looking at it is that their pace is 2.4% faster of the pace set by the world record holder for distance travelled by foot in 24 hours while carrying a 40lb pack. They travelled that pace for a longer period, but with substantial intervening rests. I think this comparison is significant as they were carrying loads. Even more relevant is the comparison to Harald Godwinson's march to Yorkshire that @David.Bowan brings up (in a slightly mistaken form). Given that the Three Hunters travelled on uneven terrain rather than a smooth track, and sustained the effort over several days, I think the sobriquet "Wingfoot" was justified - but it is clearly not an unreasonable task. Particularly so given their access to lembas. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Three_Hunters www.gaisma.com/en/location/nice.html#google_vignette www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/117081-longest-distance-run-in-24-hours-carrying-a-40-lb-pack

[@Enerdhil]

Thanks for making all the calculations so we don't have to.😅😁👍

[@Makkaru112]

@@tom_curtis how did you post links without KZbin smacking the comment down ?

[@Makkaru112]

@@tom_curtisGiven the fact it was REAL elvish Lembas it did a dozen wonders. It was made first by the Vala named Yavanna from special corn that grew in Aman, and Oromë gave it to the Elves for the purpose of the Great Journey. For this reason, it was an Elven custom that only women should make lembas; they were called Yavannildi who knew the secret of its recipe from Oromë. Also, the custom mandated that only an Elven Queen should keep and distribute the lembas; for this reason she was called also massánië or besain. - Only on rare occasions was it given to non-Elves, because it was believed that mortals who ate it would become weary of their mortality and would desire to live among the Elves. The corn was an enduring plant that needed but a little sunlight to ripen and could be sown at any season and then sprouted and grew swiftly. Yet it was harmed by north winds, while Morgoth dwelt there. The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades. The ears were harvested without scythe or sickle but each one was gathered by hand, and the white stalks were drawn from the earth and used to weave baskets in which the grain was stored. Melian, as the queen of Doriath, was one who held the recipe from Yavanna. By giving lembas to Beleg for Túrin, Melian showed him great favour because it had never before been given to Men and seldom was again. Later it was passed to Galadriel and other Elves. When ships had been sent forth, at the behest of Turgon, towards the West, its mariners carried a sealed wallet with waybread for their voyage. Voronwë, after surviving the wreck, shared it with Tuor throughout their journey to Gondolin. Dúnedain, inspired by the elves, made a similar kind of waybread (although it was not true lembas), that they carried on long journeys. So each of Isildur's soldiers on their way north from the War of the Last Alliance "carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days". The Galadhrim had a large store of lembas in Lothlórien. Galadriel gave some of it to the Fellowship of the Ring upon their departure. Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee subsisted on it through the majority of their journey from there into Mordor. The tradition of farming the Western Corn and the making of waybread was lost for ever in Middle-earth after the departure of Galadriel and the death of Arwen. One of the only places left where this untouched holy wheat can be grown is the groves within Lothlórien.

[@tom_curtis]

@@Makkaru112, cool lore dump - but what are the sources?

[@tom_curtis]

@@Makkaru112, I had no idea it was unusual, and no idea why.

[@magicofshootingstar]

For me more impressive in this trip than the distance (which I have never bothered to translate to modern units 😅 thanks for doing that though, at least halfly, it was easy to turn those miles to the km) has always been the fact that they are constantly moving. Besides the nights it mentions that they only take two breaks in a day (at least on two of the days that's mentioned) and how I read it, they weren't very long ones. You talked about possibility of stopping for full meals but there is no mention of that. Knowing all the food talk in the book, I think it's significant that there is only mentions of them eating lembas while in motion. Oh and second comment: You said going downhill is easier. It is actually tougher for your joints and ligaments even if it might feel easier as long as the terrain is not too rough 🙂

[@Kassul42]

One potential point of comparison might also be Terry Fox. Up in Canada Terry Fox began his Marathon of Hope in 1980 trying to raise money for cancer research after having his right leg amputated from osteosarcoma. On a terrible old prosthetic that pained him, with cancer that spread to his lungs, he ran 3339 miles in 143 days. 23.35 mile days for months. Eventually the spread of cancer forced him to end his run.

[@Enerdhil]

Very heroic.

[@hglundahl]

19:04 If Eomer was used to riding, he may have been underestimating what could normally be done on foot.

[@istari0]

While I've never had much interest in walking or running any great distance, the thing that comes to my mind is that conditions the three hunters were operating under were very different that those road races are done under.

[@David.Bowman.]

I don’t think Tolkien pulled this out of nowhere: before his defeat at Hastings, King Harold marched his troops 185 miles from York to Hastings in four days. Also, Wingfoot is another example of the imagery of Hermes/Mercury scattered throughout LotR.

[@tom_curtis]

Good call on the historical precedent, and its likely influence on Tolkien. Unfortunately, when I double checked with wikipedia (because I did not remember it at all), I found that you got the leg of the march wrong. According to wikipedia, he force marched from London to Stamford Bridge, a distance of 200 km as the crow flies, or likely around the 250 km travelled by the Three Hunters if you follow the roads. However, it was 19 days after the Battle of Stamford Bridge that he met his fate at the Battle of Hastings.

[@David.Bowman.]

@@tom_curtisoh I see, thanks lol was half-remembering from school history!

[@Tar-Elenion]

You are probably thinking of this: "Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. ‘League’ is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles. Lár meant ‘pause’, because except in forced marches a brief halt was usually made after this distance had been covered [see note 9 above]. The Númenórean ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their greater stature. Therefore five thousand rangar would be almost exactly the equivalent of 5280 yards, our ‘league’: 5277 yards, two feet and four inches, supposing the equivalence to be exact,. UT, Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Numenorean Linear Measures Also: "...the soldiers of the Dúnedain, tall men of great strength and endurance, were accustomed to move fully-armed at eight leagues a day ‘with ease’: when they went in eight spells of a league, with short breaks at the end of each league (lár, Sindarin daur, originally meaning a stop or pause), and one hour near midday. This made a ‘march’ of about ten and a half hours, in which they were walking eight hours. This pace they could maintain for long periods with adequate provision. In haste they could move much faster, at twelve leagues a day (or in great need more), but for shorter periods." UT, Disaster of the Gladden Fields, note 9

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yep, I think that’s it!

[@Enerdhil]

Very good stuff, as usual. Thanks.😁👍

[@stephenleggett4243]

Back in the napoleonic era, the British Light Brigade marched 52 miles in a little over a day and then fought the battle of Talavera at the end of the march. That is elite and British troops, but they would still have been carrying all their kit as well as food and training not being what it is today. Probably not a bad representation of the three hunters. I'm sure there are plenty of other equivalent feats, but that's history I know well off hand.

[@Cat_R_Waul]

I’d say the run of the orcs ahead of them is more impressive. A much larger group, carrying two hobbits, and less mighty than their hunters.

[@benbrown8258]

Really appreciated this analysis. Also you gained points for being a runner. Since getting a pedometer and tracking gradual improvement since back injury, 4,500 steps is a good distance for me. (goal of 7,500 average). What the Three Hunters did might do me in. I forgot though about the heartiness of the dwarves. Makes sense now Gimli could catch up to them or they slowed their pace for the dwarf to keep up.

[@ke9tv]

Assessment of the Three Hunters: They're not superhuman - but they are performing at a level that today would make them 'elite athletes.' My qualifications to make such an assessment: I've hiked a few times with a guy who had Fastest Known Time on the Pacific Crest Trail very briefly - someone else broke his record about a week later. 75-km days - with a pack - were something he managed fairly often. I'm nowhere near in his league for knocking out the miles - what I bring to the party is navigation skills. Speed isn't all that relevant in the places I go. (Sometimes it takes me an hour to go 200 metres, pushing through the vegetation or scrambling the rock.) I recall overhearing a group of this guy's buddies talking about me: "Kevin isn't all that fast, and he doesn't do the big long-distance trips, but he goes absolutely f*ing anywhere!" I don't run - I trashed a knee in a climbing accident about fifty years ago, and running doesn't work for me. I can manage a fair bit of hiking, I did 220+ km in a two-week trip a few years ago (where the two weeks included a few days spent on town stops - I was doing 20-30 km days when I was in motion), but my knees won't take the impact of running. It was quite an adventure. I recall having a swim in a lake, 32 km from the nearest road. Literally alone and naked in the wilderness. Downhill in rough terrain is NOT easier. When I budget hike time with a group, I add about 15 minutes for each 100 metres of elevation change, up OR down.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

True, rough terrain is slow regardless, but in Rohan you’re looking at rolling hills, nothing too rough.

[@LaJokanan]

Humans are persistence hunters, our ancestors caught their prey not by out-running it but by wearing it down, just chasing it until its strength ran out,, so we make good long-distance runners. Elves just make good everything, so I suppose Legolas would find it quite easy. Dwarves, I don't know; even as a kid, I used to wonder how Gimli kept up.

[@Makkaru112]

There is tons of lore as to how robust and how far and fast Dwarves can get around.

[@Enerdhil]

​@@Makkaru112 Like Dain's army running from the Iron Hills to Erebor in The Hobbit. 😁👍

[@anarionelendili8961]

I forget how quickly Dain and his people marched from the Iron Hills to Erebor. Doing a bit of research... It seems that the armies of Laketown and Elves arrived on the 5th day after sending for help. 6th day the negotiations start. Then it is a bit unclear how many days pass ('for some time') before Dain is 'two days away', and then Dain force-marches through the night and arrives on the morning of the 2nd day. I found a timeline that placed the Battle of Five Armies on 18th of November, with Smaug dead on the 9th. Which would be 9 days. Looking at maps, it seems to be about 200 miles as crow flies from the source of Carnen to the gates of Erebor. Call it eight days of 30 miles each for a total of 240 miles. It is doable, but with the heavy packs and armor the dwarves are carrying, it is still quite impressive. For most ancient armies, 20 miles per day on roads is already a good achievement; the dwarves presumably were marching through relatively open ground, but at best paths rather than roads. On the other hand, 500 people can move much easier than 5000.

[@Balue7]

I'd consider looking at hikers Fastest Known Times (FKTs). Actual backpacking gear for long distances. Pacific Crest Trail (PCT) for example is 2650 miles, with the FKT self-supported is under 56 days.

[@paulchapman8023]

The Three Hunters didn't just have to pursue the Uruk-Hai; they also had to be ready to fight them if they overtook them. Maybe they could have run faster if they didn't have to be ready for the fight at the end of the chase.

[@Enerdhil]

Valid point.😁👍

[@hglundahl]

6:04 I looked at it. 54.31536 km a day. Unless I misread the map, there was one day when I actually did 80 km, but the thing is, it left my groin very sore. THAT is a reason why I would not have been able to repeat the feat next day. It took me perhaps 10 hours or a bit less, but the next day I could hardly walk.

[@hglundahl]

I may have misread the map, but if my memory isn't garbled, it was Odense to somewhere on Jutland, closest towns being Kolding and Fredericia, which would be like 58 to 70 sth km.

[@Makkaru112]

written by elven LoreMaster named Pengolodh. Lembas was made first by the Vala named Yavanna from special corn that grew in Aman, and Oromë gave it to the Elves for the purpose of the Great Journey. For this reason, it was an Elven custom that only women should make lembas; they were called Yavannildi who knew the secret of its recipe from Oromë. Also, the custom mandated that only an Elven Queen should keep and distribute the lembas; for this reason she was called also massánië or besain. - Only on rare occasions was it given to non-Elves, because it was believed that mortals who ate it would become weary of their mortality and would desire to live among the Elves. The corn was an enduring plant that needed but a little sunlight to ripen and could be sown at any season and then sprouted and grew swiftly. Yet it was harmed by north winds, while Morgoth dwelt there. The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades. The ears were harvested without scythe or sickle but each one was gathered by hand, and the white stalks were drawn from the earth and used to weave baskets in which the grain was stored. Melian, as the queen of Doriath, was one who held the recipe from Yavanna. By giving lembas to Beleg for Túrin, Melian showed him great favour because it had never before been given to Men and seldom was again. Later it was passed to Galadriel and other Elves. When ships had been sent forth, at the behest of Turgon, towards the West, its mariners carried a sealed wallet with waybread for their voyage. Voronwë, after surviving the wreck, shared it with Tuor throughout their journey to Gondolin. Dúnedain, inspired by the elves, made a similar kind of waybread (although it was not true lembas), that they carried on long journeys. So each of Isildur's soldiers on their way north from the War of the Last Alliance "carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days". The Galadhrim had a large store of lembas in Lothlórien. Galadriel gave some of it to the Fellowship of the Ring upon their departure. Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee subsisted on it through the majority of their journey from there into Mordor. The tradition of farming the Western Corn and the making of waybread was lost for ever in Middle-earth after the departure of Galadriel and the death of Arwen. One of the only places left where this untouched holy wheat can be grown is the groves within Lothlórien.

[@Enerdhil]

I have eaten something that is as filling as Lembas. It is a Chinese Moon Cake. A Chinese person at more work gave me one as a gift and a sample. At lunch time, I ate that cake. Fine. I did not need anything else to eat and I had a lot of energy. When I got home, my wife asked me what we should do for dinner. I told her I had a small Chinese cake at work and still was not hungry. She wasn't happy eating dinner by herself. I went to sleep with a feeling that my stomach was still full. The next morning, I didn't need breakfast. I went to work and finally my appetite came back around 24 hours after I ate that amazing cake. We are approaching the Mid-Autumn Festival, September 17th. Even now you can go to any Chinese supermarket and buy a decorative tin of these cakes. They are for gifts and can be very pricey. Try one if you get a chance. You may want to eat half and save the rest for the next day.😁👍

[@Enerdhil]

I always refer to Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth when I have to get an idea of distance. She has two maps, one for the Orcs' route and the other for the Three Hunters' route. The Orcs went about 100 miles from the site of the Skirmish to their first camp in one day. If we say they were moving for almost the whole time, their speed would have been a little faster than 4 mile/hour. That seems faster than what the Three Hunters ran, but the poor Orcs didn't get any praise from Eomer when he caught up to them, even though they ran an extra 30 miles further in the same clock time.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Eomer also didn’t get the chance to ask them how far they’d run and in what time. 😂

[@Enerdhil]

@@TolkienLorePodcast But there was more information: ".... and thence down the leagues of the Great River to the Falls of Rauros. There Boromir was slain by the same Orcs whom you destroyed." "It is now the fourth day since he was slain." This only helps if Éomer had ever gone that far.😅

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@Enerdhil but when he heard that it was too late to congratulate the orcs lol.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TolkienLorePodcast That's true.😂 I still feel that the Uruk-hai are not getting the credit that they deserve. Here comes Adar!!😱

[@hglundahl]

17:54 After that walk, my feet were not the problem the next day. But then I had been walking across Copenhagen for months, blisters were months back in my memory. The problem was the groin.

[@Peak_Aussieman]

It's a shame the Mythbusters never got around to covering Tolkien. At least, not that I remember.

[@Makkaru112]

Mythbusters??

[@Steven-op5zv]

​@@Makkaru112 an American TV series hosted by two experienced "special effects" engineers. It was produced for several seasons/series/years. The episodes tried to accomplish things that "people say" are amazing, impossible, ridiculous film/TV writing, etc. Very entertaining! Middle school and high school (American labels) science teachers have shown portions of those episodes in class.

[@hglundahl]

1:28 I'm reminded at people stating disbelief in Beowulf indirectly by asking if the Kattegatt exists. People have crossed the English channel swimming. Gothenburg Frederikshavn 99,2 km wait ... Dover Calais is just 50 km They could have a point. But I would argue Beowulf, like Hercules, had unusually high amounts of archaic human DNA, and I just learned that in Icelanders (partly coming from roughly where Beowulf lived, or not too far north of it) have a record high percentage of Denisovan DNA -- outside the populations having recognised Denisovan DNA.

[@Ansatz66]

A marathon is 26.2 *miles* not 26.2 kilometers. 26.2 kilometers would be far more manageable.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yeah I knew I was going to mix the two at some point 😂

[@magicofshootingstar]

Oh, I was wondering that isn't maraton over 40km (42,195 km to be precise) but yeah it makes sense that it was a miles amount he used accidentally 😄

[@elasiduo108]

I think you are undercutting a bit here the achievement of Aragorn and co. but I guess the point stands. Indeed, the distance and time are not "great" compared with ultramarathoners in the current day and age. But also let us recall that Tolkien wrote this stuff in a day and age where competetive sport and high performance athletes were at an infancy compared with modern times. In this day and age, compared with standards of super-athletes and people who practice long distance sprints, it may not seem like a big deal. But, in a medieval setting, with people ordinarily not travelling a lot, and crossing the wilderness in hot pursuit, I think Eomer was justified in being impressed with Aragorn's feat, although, as you have pointed out, it's not beyond the realm of feasibility to achieve that being a well rounded athlete, such as Aragorn, Legolas an Gimli were.

[@hglundahl]

15:03 A kilometer (2/3 mile) in fifteen minutes is very doable.

[@richardcoffin7577]

How many hours of sleep are you assuming for each of the 3 nights?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

You could assume anywhere up to 10-12 and still make my math word because on the low end I was considering 12 hours of daylight.

[@stevemonkey6666]

I can say for sure that I definitely would die if I tried that feat

[@peternouwen]

Have you already heard of the 4-day-march in Nijmegen, The Netherlands? That's an event where thousands of peoples walk 200 Km in 4 days. That's 50K a day. If you want to know what it looks like to do that and what it does to both an untrained and a trained body, you should check pout the video of Kara and Nate's. (It's fun as well...)

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I was not aware of that, but it’s good to know!

[@phoule76]

Horselords do not simply run anywhere.

[@Enerdhil]

I think the firmness of the ground could have made the run easier or harder.🤔

[@LovePullups]

Dwarves have short legs and i am pretty sure they wouldn't be able to keep a 15minutes per mile pace while walking

[@Enerdhil]

Remember in The Hobbit, Dain and his Dwarf Army ran from the Iron Hills to Erebor in a very short time.

[@Makkaru112]

Tolkien has tons of detail as to how far and fast Dwarves get around. Their ancestors literally were handmade by a god named Aulë. Hello comet. 😂😅❤

[@LovePullups]

​@@EnerdhilI agree. But walking differs from running and their legs length might be a limiting factor

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

He’d probably have to power walk 😅

[@Enerdhil]

@@LovePullups I know what you mean, but I am not sure why you insist on having him walk as opposed to jog.🤔

[@theMightywooosh]

You could "speed walk" that distance in 4 days, and still have time to eat and sleep, would not be that hard,

[@Enerdhil]

Legolas could literally sleep walk that distance in way less time. Unfortunately his fellow hunters could not.

[@JayJayFlip]

Ultra Marathon is such a silly term. Every Marathon is the exact same length, 42.125km, so thats like saying something is 12 Super Miles away. Or a Mega Week from now.

[@octaviusmigtonius2965]

An ultra marathon is NOT a marathon.

[@enriqueparodiYT1]

In my whole life, if have ran a total of aprox. 100 m

[@enriqueparodiYT1]

Maybe was downhill... 😋

[@Makkaru112]

“I’ve always loved going south. Somehow it always feels like going downhill” - Fangorn. ❤

[@hglundahl]

27th thumbs up given!

[@poeterritory]

And all they had to do was just use the eagles.

[@Makkaru112]

Tolkien literally said how dumb that was for several reasons both in let the r and voice.

[@ke9tv]

@@Makkaru112 I think OP was joking... "just use the Eagles" has become a trope for mockery.

[@octaviusmigtonius2965]

PCT hikers can do 120 miles in 4 days if they're hiking 30 miles per day. 135 miles is not that much more. I am far from a world class athlete, but I myself am capable of hiking 135 miles over 4 days if I really pushed myself.