ARE GOING-SECOND STAPLES FAIR? - Magical Hats

[@Farfa]

I am standing beside Joseph right now at ycs London. How did he upload this?!???!!!?

[@cleanbishop7874]

at 20 past 12 at night? GO TO BED.

[@zomenis]

You've fallen for the ol' fake Joseph gag, Farfa!

[@jeirust9768]

He passed through the gay guardian

[@dueldawg]

Wake up

[@MiyaoMeow588]

His buddy Naruto did him a solid

[@marinperkovic2117]

Will we ever find out what Gage was going to ask? No.

[@SparkShadow212]

Probably for the best.

[@ratoh1710]

It was too risque for prime time

[@M8gicStorm]

I think he was applying for the suckoff series.😂

[@gayralseitweets]

Marvel after credits scene

[@SaintoftheHonest]

He finally asked "what exactly IS ovipositing?" 😂

[@skaro967-3]

As soon as MBT said "I dont really have anything to say" I knew he had to be the imposter. No real Joseph would pass up the chance to talk.

[@maskofthedragon]

In 5 years, they could print a card that says "If went go second, erase your opponent from existence" and people are still going to pick 1st 99% of the time

[@gustafhillertz9374]

the futre of yugioh will all be mist valley ftk mirrors mark my words

[@MegaBichiX]

That's an absolute dogshit effect. It can still be responded to. It needs to be a link 1 with generic material that reads "you can link summon this card using your opponents monster. If you do, you win the match."

[@Merdra]

Only because in 3 years there will be a deck that lets you claim ownership of your opponents cards, mind and body. You can just tell him to rip up his cards or simply forfeit the match entirly.

[@flamie-1023]

instructions unclear, card got negated skill issue lemao bozo moment

[@carlosjavierpalacios6793]

they will just negate it 🤣🤣

[@Quenteeth_Taranteetho]

Gage being wildly out of focus last week just to be the only thing in focus this week is a crazy arc.

[@createrz8433]

The arc of gageh

[@Colourhasau]

absorbed the focus

[@EvilMyself]

MBT going completely unhinged at the end was just precious

[@OsirusHandle]

he was right

[@monkeyismadd1825]

I recently built raid raptors as a fun casual deck to play with my friends who are pretty new, my end board was a final fortress falcon and it took almost everything my brick of a hand could do to make it work as I was still in the learning and balancing phase of the deck. My opponent opened his one of kaiju andand raigeki and that was it, i couldnt do anything with what I set up. Instead of making that friend work through this deck to find one of them two ways he could out my boss monster (I chose my decks to act as puzzles to teach the newer players in our group), that one card made what could have been a good learning experience into a boring game where they did barely anything and slowly won becase I drew bad and they knew how to summon 3 monsters and use raigeki

[@orga7777]

@@OsirusHandle He talks about "unresponsive dog water" while enjoying to lock people out of playing the game with Dark Angel. His take is garbage.

[@skywardking7798]

@@monkeyismadd1825 so ya basically summoned a big beat stick monster unaffected by card effects that would kill him next turn and because he drew the out it became boring? what was the other person supposed to do? set card pass? cuz depending on his deck there might have been no way otherwise to out the thing due to its ridiculously high attack stat

[@monkeyismadd1825]

@@skywardking7798 I mentioned that my friend was new to the game and I knew what was in his deck, we've played enough while he is learning the game and I know how his deck works. I know for sure that his deck can out a 3800 atk monster by battle alone, all he needs to do is understand his cards and play well after opening any starter card and he should be able to beat that deck most of the time. Yes it became boring because the kaiju stopped all interaction between our boards, he attempted to stop me from reaching the high rank raidraptors by using his few negates and interactions while I attempted to reach a tower that he would have to attack over or force me to detatch the only material it had before destroying. The kaiju made all of my effort completely worthless and was such an anticlimactic payoff for an otherwise fun duel

[@zacharyallan4640]

I feel like this is the first time we see what’s beyond the door. At least on KZbin

[@theslanderousgent4475]

I feel like I’ve seen something that I shouldn’t…

[@kauanjos3199]

It's the backrooms

[@hi123452008]

MBT being from the backrooms explains a lot actually

[@rivashanmolefi7326]

A discussion on "If" and "When" effects Should "missed timing" be a concept

[@baronlightyt965]

It’s easy . Miss timing is important Because you must know your cards and understand it’s interaction . Removing the miss timing would drop the level of the game.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Missed timing is a problem because most effects cannot miss timing. You can't be selective with it, either everything can or nothing can. Otherwise it's just stupid and inconsistent.

[@OscarGilFerrer]

I still don't get why it exists. Has it been a rule sice the beginning or Konami just said: "From now on these effects are nerfed and every new effect like these will have a new wording that won't be affected by the ruling." ?

[@dededemanreal]

@@baronlightyt965 It would but its really fucking annoying for old archetypes when they get support without retrains like gusto gulldo makes me wanna cry and i just lied to my friends so that it felt less awful to play with, also the vast majority of new decks dont even have "when" effects so it feels like a text era diff

[@snes90]

Hello Peten (the Dark Clown), my old friend I've come to miss your timing once again Because a ruling softly creeping Left me confused while I was tributing

[@marchmelloow]

100% agree with Joseph on this: are going 2nd stapes the best thing ever? Probably not. Does it ruin the game that Konami keeps printing stronger and stronger cards that just say "ignore your opponent"? Yes, and it will only get worse. It is not fun when Yugioh is the 1st turn player making an unbreakable board and the 2nd turn player plays only cards that ignores everything the 1st turn player does. It's the same reason I agree with him about things like Knightmare's existing: now that every deck has an out to floodgates, they HAVE to be stronger or else no one would play them, which leads to abominations like Mystic Mine. It is not healthy for the game.

[@michaelkeha]

If you can make an unbreakable board does that not mean you just auto win and it becomes he who wins the die role wins the game like if you need tools to actually be able to play back or what's the fucking point

[@marchmelloow]

@@michaelkeha Exactly, if Yugioh is all about making unbreakable boards, then you _have_ to play these types of cards. I'm saying that Konami making turn 1 so broken is making the game terrible _along with_ turn 2 now being about how much you can ignore your opponent.

[@TheLordTash]

"You can go +20 in a turn, that's just not physically possible in most card games" Pokemon: *laughs*

[@vxicepickxv]

Magic: Hey, I did this in a standard.

[@lamiaprincess6371]

Yeah I think it's been a while since Gage has interacted with other card games, even in Magic Modern has like 2 turn kills now with certain decks.

[@CuriousLumenwood]

Yea that comment was especially funny for me cuz I play Digimon and just watched a match where a guy barfed like 7 monsters on the field because of one card

[@Speedracer6]

@@CuriousLumenwood royal knights?

[@nerfirelia8235]

I think Gage more meant that Magic and Pokemon don't really have anything equivalent to going +20 in Yugioh. Like Pokemon can have cards that say draw 7, but in Yugioh that would be the equivalent of like normal summon Jerry Beans Man.

[@shadowofdimentio4618]

Yeah go second cards are either 'you win' or 'this card does nothing'. Coder was right in that we need more cards like Pankratops that are interactable and actually do something that forces both players to think optimally. Do you try and pop it only for it to respond and negate or do you try and let them commit to battle first? Do ou attempt to force it out without ever interacting with it directly? A good card. Evenly matcHed. Do I negate it? Yes 100%. If I can't I lose. Dark Ruler on my deck that plays one backrow? Hope that's good enough.

[@ohexenwahno5652]

Even in MD, which doesn't even have Tear or Kashtira yet, DRNM often isn't enough. You'll DRNM and Evenly and still sometimes lose.

[@periklisperperis6868]

​@@ohexenwahno5652 if you resolved drnm and evenly and still lost then you either bricked, played a bad deck or you played badly

[@Jhawk2711]

@@ohexenwahno5652 that’s just not possible lol. Unless you’re playing a tier 7 deck, negating all but the backrow and wiping their entire field bar one card is an insta win

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@Jhawk2711 Maxx C exists

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@periklisperperis6868 Maxx C says hi

[@calvinbarboza]

We need more going second cards like Pank, Kurikara, and Fenrir that are strong but present reasonable counterplay that leads to back and forth gameplay. If I win a game be evelying or DRNM, I don’t even know why I sat down to play.

[@Cjelex]

You want going second cards to be fair? Easy! Just making going first worse. You know what's just as uninteractive as a super poly? A negate when you don't have an established board.

[@luminous3558]

I kinda hate the going 2nd staples because they are never just good. They are either the craziest thing ever or don't meaningfully influence the gamestate. They exist as bandaid fixes to crazy going 1st boards but their solution is to just instant win the game sometimes or not get played at all because they aren't enough. I much prefer cards like Imperm which has the added flexibility at the cost of power over an unwieldy DRNM. Though this comes from a purely MD perspective, with siding these cards probably feel a lot better to play with and against.

[@dracoblizzard7944]

They feel a lot worse to play against after siding. It's like the Maxx "C" minigame, but instead of checking how many Earth Insects player 2 has and how many called by/crossout/ash player 1 does, it's how many board breakers did player 2 draw vs how many negates can player 1 set up. And in the case of Kaijus/Golem/Sphere Mode, it's like they had a bell for your called by. There's nothing you can do about it. You just lose.

[@rastafari2k3]

Agree. Cards that read "if this resolves you win" are just dumb. But most of the time they just eat negates. It's just the state of this game

[@Tokumastu1]

The thing with going second cards, or more accurately board breaker cards, is that each one comes at a cost. DRNM negates all face up monsters, but locks you out of doing damage of any kind while still asking you to put the leg work into clearing the board and setting up your own. Droplets while strong still needs you pay a hefty cost and asks you to work with fewer resources. Evenly has a similar thing as DRNM where you're not swinging for game and still need to mount a board and wait for the opponents counter attack. Even stuff like Lava Golem and Ra Sphere take away your normal summon. The alternatives to going second cards is to be stuck dealing with negate boards and stun boards with no way of doing anything. The opponent getting a free win just for going first.

[@ARadiantHero]

While I do agree it is kind of a band-aid for how far powercreep has gone, I'd much rather we have these cards available than not. There have been a lot of formats where one-for-one trades just aren't enough, and going second is still being seen as a detriment even now. I will gladly take someone sacking their way through an unplayable board than the other end of the spectrum, which is to make a game-winning board to prevent someone from playing the game at all. At the very least, one extreme has both players playing cards lmao

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@Tokumastu1 The thing with DRNM and Evenly is that by breaking your opponent's board and not being able to go for the kill, your reversed the roles. It's as if the first turn didn't happen and now player 2 is actually going first, which is broken as it is, but with player 1 having spent all his resources to build his board.

[@nomoreplayerz8443]

6:43 "Oh you're mean one, Mr.Grinch" first thing that pop in my head

[@Lysvsyl]

The alternative is like tripling the size of the banlist with, and never again printing, ways to set up an otherwise unbreakable board. While I personally think that would be the right move, Konami would drive a lot of people away from the game with a move like that.

[@logan5018]

This shouldnt even be an argument imo. as long as people can put up "unbreakable boards" where they literally have more interaction than you have cards, these cards must exist. if you say no to this question, you are basically saying people should be able to go first and the going second player should basically have no chance to play

[@ARadiantHero]

If I ever have to sit through the hell that was Gumblar Firewall Rhongo again I will eat my own spleen with a smile, and if these crazy going second cards is what it takes then fck it we ball. I salute a level 11 Rock-type Effect Monster for keeping me safe at night from the horrors 🫡

[@theermac6024]

The thing is, those are the two extremes of the spectrum. Neither should exist. Not the board that is literally unable to be broken, nor the cards that just completely ignore whatever the oponent made and cannot be interacted with. The part that poeple forget is that Yu-Gi-Oh evolved to be a game where a player wins by preventing the other from playing to begin with.

[@GarlyleWilds]

They are an unfortunate symptom of a game that is breaking apart at the seams.

[@snes90]

Board breakers not being searchable (for the most part) is what keeps them fair but also underpowered. A deck can have multiple ways of getting it's unbeatable board. A going 2nd player has to rely on luck to beat it. That doesn't seem fair, but if you could search for Even Matched, I think that would almost be worse?

[@jessequeen4550]

@@snes90 you can search evenly with thrust

[@mr.valeyard8810]

A Magical Hats episode not being posted at midnight?! Hallelujah!

[@MomirViggwilv]

MBT uploaded this from Europe. Guess what time it is there.

[@DarkSideOfTheForceKin]

We can get rid of the unfun going second cards as soon as we get rid of all the towers cards. Ain't no way I'm playing against untargetable, indestructible chungus #35 if I can't play kaijus.

[@matthewradabaugh1635]

I think the prevailing argument is that kaijus, golem, and pank are genrally fine cards as they don't completely destroy the opponent's board but still let you out things like the towers.

[@carpedm9846]

I think general consensus is "its a necessary evil" Sure, it makes bosses feel kinda underwhelming since you cant go "BEHOLD, MY BIG COOL IN ARCHETYPE BOSS MONSTER!!!" Before it gets unceremoniously turtled... but its WAY better than the alternative.

[@markchang2964]

True!

[@66Roses]

Did you mean "every Wyrm Synchro"?

[@minabasejderha5972]

Surprised Kevin didn't remember the phrase "they don't start a chain," when explaining the difference between a card that *says* you can't respond and the "not being allowed to respond" he means.

[@jsd4574]

I suspect he'd put Super poly in that category tho, and that does start a chain

[@cturtle4573]

Joseph is spot on here. I don't have fun when I use these batshit insane going 2nd cards, it's just a sense of catharsis in knowing I don't have to deal with my opponents obnoxious endboards. I'd prefer if both of those things were not in the game so this wouldn't be an issue.

[@SknowingWolf]

Exactly, at the end of the day I think the underlying issue is just the overall power creep the whole game suffers from. Konami basically chose to fight unfun going first strats with unfun going second responses.

[@IrrelevantOaf]

The amount of times people would scoop the moment I drop a Evenly matched or Dark Ruler is baffling high. But yeah totally just waste my time and scoop after I watched you play with yourself for 10 minutes.

[@AZ-rl7pg]

It's a necessary evil in modern YGO

[@TheBeastlyBomber]

@@AZ-rl7pg which is fucked

[@SoraBell]

@@AZ-rl7pg it’s necessary cause Konami allows it to be this way, not because it’s actually something that can’t be fixed

[@evanprimeau3810]

An important point that wasn’t touched on here, but Joseph was fringing on, is that because of the sheer power and sacks-ness of cards like Nibiru, Dark Ruler, Lava Golem and all the rest, you not only get unfun games where it’s just over when your opponent reveals they have “the card”, but ALSO an insane level of powercreep due to the existence of these insane going second answers. Archetypes nowadays are built to be insanely strong going first, almost exclusively so, and it feels like Konami thinks cards that say “Oops, I win the game” going second makes that a fair balance. All it does is create toxic formats where any deck that can’t handle getting nuked from orbit is unplayable garbage, and then players just sit across from each other, roll a dice, and then ask “Do you have Maxx C?”, do their 5 minute long combo, and then have their opponent rip Dark Ruler off the top and bitch slap their opponent with it. It’s not interactive, it’s not fun, it’s not interesting: it’s stupid.

[@RunicSigils]

It's not one or the other. Answers keep getting stronger because the questions keep getting stronger to avoid the answers. Answers to problems to answers to problems to answers to problems in an endless circle. The only actually answer being to re-balance most of the Extra Deck by a making a lot of stuff a lot less generic. Until that's done you can't even really know what else might help. Though it is infecting a lot of the stuff outside the ED as well at this point you can't rebalance those until problem prime is dealt with because they too are being made to compete with the other problems. It's a quick cash grab rather than taking stock for long term gain. It will result in nothing more than a game no one wants to play except for old formats. A place where a game that is not the biggest earner in it's industry to begin with should never desire to be.

[@sammydray5919]

Going second cards are not fun especially if they are must answer or lose board breaker kind of cards. However these cards have become a necessity because of how oppressive first turn full combo is in this game

[@AllBeganwithBBS]

Gotta say, it feels awful to play a deck that insta-loses to going 2nd cards. Playing any deck without negates and facing a simple Raigeki or Evenly? Welp, unless I still have 2 live handtraps, I guess we're going next. Really glad I made my full threatening board with boss monsters mostly designed to counter monster-focused strategies that don't have protection, a.k.a HERO, only to lose to a generic card that every deck's going to side eventually.

[@buddbrown6858]

yeah what's ignored in this discussion is not just that current rogue decks lose hard to it, but any deck Konami ever makes in the future that can't put up a turn 1 negate auto losses to their board breakers, and this is at a time when people hate negate cards cuz we've gotten so many over the years. Anything that limits card design this much can't simply be "in a good place" or "not strong enough" the way they're saying

[@jhoneism]

I’m in the camp where I actually enjoy trying to adapt decks that usually go first into blind-second decks; but that’s probably because I only play master duel so it makes losing the coin toss easier

[@ohexenwahno5652]

@@jhoneism I just go 3 DRNM, 3 Evenly and call it a day.

[@amiablereaper]

Yeah literally if you want blind second in md you'll get it almost every time

[@ryionizer3622]

I have multiple outstanding warrants for my arrest

[@benoitbrown9400]

All of my warrants are mediocre at best :/

[@Yous0147]

My take is that I'm honestly not sure how to feel about them. I feel like YGO is generally in such a broken state that you need them to break boards and do things sometimes, yet I agree with Joseph that they're inherently just unfun and lead to sacky gameplay. So in some sense, they're necassary in the current climate, but a lot of cards are designed like this so to me it' not really an isolated problem, rather it's a thematic piece of a of whole, and moreso a symptom of the game design as it is currently.

[@homerman76]

As some have said, they're a band-aid solution to a problem that's too deep for them to actually fix, and unfortunately, the band-aid is kind of ugly looking too, so the people affected by the problem know it isn't enough and the people on the outside just think it looks bad.

[@buddbrown6858]

exactly, I'm surprised we didn't hear more about the card design philosophy issues behind this and its effects. Cuz going forward, if your rogue deck or even a new rogue archetype can't put up a turn 1 negate, you just lose to board breakers every timw. It's not fun now and has implications on new stuff released in the future

[@12thLevelSithLord]

​@@buddbrown6858 I think we didn't hear more about it because this show is more about the "who is imposter" aspect than just having a discussion on the topic.

[@PhantomThiefXI]

master rule 6 is gonna be like going first has no draw and no bp, going second cant be negated

[@JeffThePersonMan]

I think going second staples are at their best when neither player can obliterate each other if one of them resolve. Like if you resolve dark ruler against spright its probably game over, but something like drnm + lightning storm in exo vs floo (not the other way around cause this matchup is hard for exo) still leads to a game where both players have resources to take control of the board

[@xCorvus7x]

This might be a misguided Master Duel experience but I think Spright can play relatively well out of their backrow. If they end with a Starter set, they can get another copy of one of the negates (which are live and probably destroy, since now they can tribute away negated Extra deck monsters that wouldn't be of use this turn anyway), and Smashers is a non-target banish. It's not much but definitely something.

[@JeffThePersonMan]

@@xCorvus7x Especially with starter at 2, you're usually not getting to set both, it's not that they dont get to interact; but rather you're so ahead on card advantage that they might as well be. Activate and resolve one branded fusion and it's pretty lights out

[@xCorvus7x]

@@JeffThePersonMan I suppose my Spright experience predates that banlist. This is very deck dependent, though. Branded happens to be a deck that doesn't care at all about Spright Smashers but other decks can be crippled by it, and Dark Ruler doesn't allow you to actually win that turn either.

[@takodachi1239]

@@xCorvus7x agree. Pure spright would usually have 1-3 interaction in form of hand trap and backrow so even they aren't completely dead with dark ruler. And ofc even if 1 lv2 remaining the Spright can probably easily recover depends on matchup.

[@rockandmetal4life777]

Being honest this is my favorite MBT Content. Not cause of all the personalities but its a fresh take on how a dialogue in yugioh can happen instead of people yelling over each other. Since you are trying to find a fake you actually have to listen

[@moxmoonstone]

Lol Joseph going off at the end gives me Light Yagami vibes getting caught on Deathnote.

[@gaaraofthefunk265]

I think that the only way that a blind going second deck in modern yugioh is a viable strategy is an otk deck in a best of one format, like master duel.

[@DaDualityofMan]

I love blind second OTK decks in MD, I have a Heroes one and I'm making an 8-Axis one(It costs an arm and a leg though)

[@ohexenwahno5652]

The only way Numeron is able to cheat wins

[@jabermogwai5996]

And pray you dont get to play againts ftk deck

[@Honest_Mids_Masher]

Heroic Sweep Babyyyyy

[@dhesh0066]

Please keep making these. I would listen to a full weekly podcast about yugioh with you 4

[@judge489]

I think an interesting discussion could be about the Extra Deck. Not if the size should change, but are generic Extra Deck cards like Accesscode and Barone detrimental to the game? Could be interesting

[@anon2447]

Yesn't I mean for the health and longevity of the non-pro circuit aspects of the game, they are actually bad, for the competitive scene they are sort of required, competitive scenes actually thrive in predictability, specially for players who make an actual living out of that scene (no wonder why the most popular competitive board game is actually chess), being able to know info and know your opponent is able to do X at Y point of the game is healthy for paid competitive scened so that the talents keep wanting to play and keep coming back allowing people to recognize names, root for stuff and even have audiences buying merch-related products. There was something weird that happened in hearthstone during the un'goro meta, pros were leaving left and right because way too many decks had similar power levels and it was very hard to predict wtf your opponent was playing making un'goro objectively (and historically) the worst format for the pro circuits and the competitive scene, but for the casual and ladder formats un'goro is the one that brought more players in and more interest into the game than many other expansions and had the highest number of players online at all times that hearthstone has ever had before BGS got released, and on top of that is also remembered very fondly by most of the playerbase, and those who don't play anymore. But then what do you do? Allow accesscode, baron Defleur and generic extra deck monsters in the pro circuits and ban them in master duel because it will actually bring more players?, but what happens when the pro circuit and ladder look so differently? it's definitely a very hard problem to solve

[@RedProxyy]

That goofy laugh from Gage at 10:27 😂😂😂

[@salem7699]

Ngl I love MBT's rants about the parts of the game he's frustrated with. He always seems to have his best moments of clarity when he's pissed.

[@DaDualityofMan]

That was an L take though

[@Honest_Mids_Masher]

@@DaDualityofMan Tbh not really I can see where he's coming from and at the end of the day it is really bad design wise but unfortunately it's a necessary evil. Maxx C however I would never consider to be in that category

[@DaDualityofMan]

@@Honest_Mids_Masher Well like you said, it’s necessary evil

[@garbagecan755]

I love how MBT being held back by being the imposter led to a literal tsunami style dam break at the end where he had to give his unedited real take.

[@reborncargothebest3096]

One of my favorite things in crusadia is if you manage to just end on Equimax 1 face down and a crusadia on your board is if your opponent goes to activate Dark Ruler you can go chain backrow then chain to your own backrow and activate equimax to negate darkruler its super fun and feels big brain when you manage to do it but it is a very rare and nesh thing to come up

[@THE_BASED_GOD]

The prompt was if going 2nd cards were too good though, not if they were fun or not. Im kind of confused on MBTs real take since his entire real arguement was they were unfun. Nothing to do with if they were too good or not.

[@buddbrown6858]

true but I liked seeing him worked up and passionately shitting on them could've used another few minutes of that rant at the end

[@shadedergu9921]

Joseph's real take rally highlighted the things Tearlament did well, and how a good evolution of yugioh would potentially be making more hyperinteractive decks in that direction

[@subarashifoundation]

Lmao this video coming out right after double kurikara takes the YCS

[@julias01]

Yes, absolutely, no question about it, especially with how powerful of an advantage you get going first in most formats and can even lock out opponents from playing a lot of the time.

[@nailduan9260]

Every deck should have a going first and going secound varient, is just that most of the going second cards aren't searchable in-archtype and usually boils down to drawing the out, even with triple tactic tasking. If anything, I feel like most modern boss monsters are being too lazily designed, with most of them just having an omni-negate and easy to summon conditions;(Baronne) or just uneffected by everything (The arrival). In such scenarios, even drawing the out wouldn't be enough, therefore I agree with Coder, they need to be better.

[@DaDualityofMan]

Yeah the boss monsters now have ridiculous power creep.

[@geek593]

Boss design hasn't been negation shotguns and unaffected since like 2021.

[@DaDualityofMan]

@@geek593 You say that like that was a long time ago lol

[@matthewdodd1262]

These cards don't have a happy place to sit. They are necessary in a card game where you sit back and are forced to try and break your opponents board when they have more negates than you do cards to use. The problem we have is the surprising lack of good power level for these cards. They are either really broken and fit in everything, or are gabage

[@reda.bendi-ouis]

You really feel the Hero player in Joseph hating on Nibiru and Raigeki

[@DaDualityofMan]

I play a going second Hero OTK deck so I actually love Raigeki lol

[@qhrono]

This is so funny considering luna kaiju got second in Swiss at LA

[@serkle69]

I love getting dark ruler evenly'd 😍

[@DaDualityofMan]

I love Dark Ruler Evenlying people 😍

[@shakeweller]

I'm surprised no one mention Super Poly, potentially the most unfun card ever printed

[@Ragnarok540]

I'm with coder on this one. Going second cards are just not good enough. Evenly Matched is not enough by itself most of the time, the opponent gets to pick what they leave on the field and they can just leave the floodgate or the interaction that matters, even if the rest of the board gets banished face down if they know what they are doing they are still winning. Most going second strategies needs the battle phase and OTK in some way so something that sounds broken like Dark Ruler No More only gives you an extra turn but not a guaranteed win, if the opponent has any recovery they can probably win in the next turn. The only going second deck that can win with consistency is numeron in best of one, as master duel shows.

[@Xero-rr2ol]

Problem is to not make them so strong that it just going second is a auto win and replaces going first in terms of chances of winning.

[@enag7]

I'm with coder as well. If going second cards were truly strong, then they would be far more present. Especially in a setting like master duel where losing the coin toss is a far bigger pain and getting to bypass that would be very valuable. I played a blind second deck last season and it really did feel like choosing to go second was putting me so far behind and there were plenty of times where unless I had a Kaiju plus 2 other cards I wasn't going to win. Or I would break the board but be short for the OTK because of hand traps or other disruption and then it would just turn into both of us top decking which is a 50/50 at best.

[@LiveTwinReaction]

Numeron and Numeron-adjacent decks are honestly so buffed in bo1 of master duel, I've had 100% wr vs live twin/runick/tri/pure spright with luna kaiju so far thanks to repeatable boardwipes like dark hole or raigeki brute forcing past carrot and it sounds like the deck will be good again in kashtira meta when that comes to MD (thanks to playing 5-6 kaijus and a couple golems). Can't wait honestly, because apparently Tear/bystial/branded meta will be horrible for luna kaiju :(

[@takodachi1239]

@@enag7 agree. My biggest issue with board breaker is that nothing is really "cost free". Wanted to play dark ruler but then backrow/handtrap still remain while I have to clear 3-4 monsters while also realize my deck doesn't play Zeus. Same with droplet, can't discard 3 target Masq Carrot Red every time. Lava Golem/Sphere mode then realize wait this hand need normal summon. A combo of dark ruler + evenly win me the game but honestly if I draw 2 handtrap I would probably win anyway without forcing me to go second and see grass or branded fusion resolve

[@buddbrown6858]

Konami's power creep and current card design over the last decade has been so bad that y'all read a card that says "banish everything but your opponent gets to keep one as a little treat" and y'all are complaining it's NOT strong enough 😂 This game in a bad space lol

[@IceshadeComets]

You can tell he's traumatized by sphere mode lol

[@larhyperhair]

Id rather play against a million board breakers than a single hand trap

[@DarkAuraLord]

actual dog ass take, but pop off, King.

[@falscher2]

agreed. One is interaction, one is "you no play YGO"

[@NovatoEx]

I see you didnt read any board breakers in your life

[@NovatoEx]

​​@@falscher2 Yeah, you can interact with handtraps in some ways, board breakers are spell speed 4 "you lose the game for going first"

[@larhyperhair]

@@NovatoEx I like "negate all cards your opponent controls but you can't win this turn" way more than "discard this card to let your opponent know what their lunch is and where to shove it"

[@warriorofgod2700]

Well, without broken board breakers, the alternative to keeping combo in check is maxx "c" which apparently no one wants back...or mystic mine...pick your poison

[@anon2447]

but wasn't DRNM needed to play mystic mine anyways??, i don't think Mystic mine solves the your opponent has 6 negates on board and probably 2 on hand issue, don't get me wrong Mine is NOT a balanced card, but i don't think it's a going second card

[@warriorofgod2700]

@anon2447 where mine got stupid was the ability to force a bunch of negates then just drop a mine while you stockpile resources again. Or use it because it forces a negate. This format, there aren't many negates running around so it would be beyond broken lol

[@LamunesADV]

Going seconds are not fair by any means, but by how the game works, they are.

[@animationtv426]

??

[@Merdra]

I think going 2nd Cards really depend against what deck you are using it and if you have follow up. I could break my opponents board with 2 Board breakers but if I also used an ash before that I only have like 3 cards to play. The chances of me having a useable starter and extenders is very slim and my opponent might still have 1 Hand Trap. That why equilizers are only good if you have good follow up and the card you used actually deals with everything your opponent has.

[@Desvaswarrior]

*Breaths in OTK*: Chaos Ancient gear giant would like to know your location.

[@MattSinz]

Going second staples aren't fair, but going first isn't fair so the need to be in order to even the odds.

[@teflondon5619]

Joseph you beautiful bastard that take was a MASSIVE W

[@geek593]

Hand traps are more healthy than board breakers when the game is this fast. With hand traps you have a bunch of mini turns within turn 1 where you get blown out by the opponent having specific interaction. Every crucial chain that doesn't get hit by the thing that ends your combo feels good. Passing turn after going full combo seriously feels like doing everything correctly in something like Hearthstone or Shadowverse, reaching crucial turns like 6/7/8 and your opponent smacking you with a legendary that auto wins the game. It doesn't feel good to play perfectly and have the opponent hoover your board and swing for game.

[@ohexenwahno5652]

The problem remains the same. Decks have been powercrept and can play through more handtraps, so they arent't enough anymore, but then, in MD, you have stuff like Maxx C that's just a game winner, or at least a turn ender, and Nib, that you either put a negate on board before 5 or you insta lose to it. None of it is fun, and I'm thinking they better make some big changes or the powercreep will make the whole game implode on itself.

[@m7in]

certified super polymerization moment.

[@DaDualityofMan]

Surprising there was no mention of it

[@beanman2047]

You've literally opened my eyes to Heroes. I said fuck it and bought the deck for like $60 or something after watching your videos on Heroes. Shit is literally the funnest deck i have ever played. I've played some decks that I love dear to my heart but you've literally opened my eyes to a new pet deck that can actually tier often, rather than something like Ojama Slifer Turbo. I have never felt such nirvana by summoning Sunrise, searching Miricle, and going into Wake Up Your E Hero then ending on like 14 Dark Laws, DPE, Absolute Zero, and Plasma. I get literal dopamine injected straight into my brain just from looking at a Hero card. Thank you for causing both a new pet deck addiction along with ruining my friendships due to Dark Law and DPE.

[@DearJimmyReviews]

I literally just had a game on Master Duel that was them comboing off with sprite for a good 5 minutes turn one, ending with 3 monsters including the XYZ and 3 back row. Summoning to the remaining monster zones as soon as I start my turn. My turn consisted of Lightning Storm on the back row, raigeki on the monsters and them scooping before they got to found out I had approximately zero plays from there… felt dirty, man!

[@heitornasimento5033]

i'm so suprised anyone talked about super-poli in this episode

[@ohexenwahno5652]

Because it's also a going first interruption

[@Enterblathnir]

Joseph: "I have nothing to say." ITS HIM HES THE IMPOSTER HE'S SUS

[@Ironpecker]

Really surprised nobody brought up dimension shifter, I guess they categorize it more as a floodgate or handtrap, but I think it should fall in the same umbrella. It's just one of those powerful cards that going second (and also going first specifically for shifter) it's just incredible

[@TheNewblade1]

The only reason you don't auto win when u play dark ruler d cause the card literally says you cannot win this turn. And most decks, thanks to access code, can otk turn 3

[@lamiaprincess6371]

Honestly I think Joseph is right but I think it's important to note there are so many going second cards that completely blow out trap decks and everyone else thinks they're fine because they don't do enough against combo decks really says like, a lot

[@NARFNra]

Every time I'm on MD playing Labrynth and OP opens Harpie's I throw up my hands and surrender LOL, like, what are you even supposed to do? Total non-game

[@rivashanmolefi7326]

​@@NARFNra Easy answer: Just don't set all your traps 🤭

[@azurabbit12]

​@@rivashanmolefi7326 that's like telling a combo player to end in literally fucking nothing just in case the opponent has DRNM The modern game doesn't allow you to just "not set all your traps", you need as much interruption as you can get, specially in a BO1 format where you don't know how much interruption you need to beat your opponent's deck, you could need a single imperm in the Normal, or you could need literally every trap in your hand

[@lamiaprincess6371]

@@NARFNra Just draw the Judgment easy. :) And then people wonder why these decks play floodgates, its because when every deck is already immediately threatening your fair cards like Judgment with the several different blow-out cards you can't keep playing little one for ones.

[@rivashanmolefi7326]

@@azurabbit12 you've got a point

[@SapphireSpadeS]

Honestly surprised out all of the cards brought up as examples no one's brought up super poly and the entire can of worms that brings with mucking your ED with targets just to have the option to maybe side it in to "tehe garuda" your opp once every moon cycle

[@DaDualityofMan]

I was thinking the same thing, can't believe they didn't mention it

[@ohexenwahno5652]

Because it's QP, Super Poly is also a going first card

[@guilhermesouza1908]

Decks need turn 2 comeback cards. I agree that turn 2 cards don't win u a game because if u think about super poly u use one / lava golem tribute to fusion and make another card above it . The problem is the price u discard one cares and use one extra deck cars that's huge and that makes super poly not crazy enough to save u. My way to fix it is the archetypes getting turn 2 cards and staples that have 2 type of effects turn 1 and turn 2 negate / get over something.

[@guilhermesouza1908]

Btw I hate these cards too but they are needed ATM sadly.

[@WDDragneel]

I see my Going-Second Staples as "Entry tickets" to the duel I'm already participating in.

[@astogram4321]

The second joseph said "the fact that lightning storm isn't even played proves that they are fine" i knew something was up... just look at his face afterwards

[@WilliamTheRailwayTako]

I'm somewhat surprised no-one brought up the fact that two of the best going-2nd staples this format are Book of Moon and E-Con, a 1-for-1 and and a 2-for-1 trade respectively. Both only out a single monster, both are able to be responded to with ease, and yet they are two of the best staples this format.

[@t3hi84n2g]

At the end of the day here the question was are these cards FAIR, not whether you enjoy having to use them or having them used against you. Without them this game is literally 'whoever goes first wins'.

[@theermac6024]

The problem with going-second staples the game has right now is this: Prevention of interaction. The biggest culprits are: Kaijus and friends, Red Reboot, DRNM and Accesscode Talker. See a trend? Either they cannot be responded to via their text or game mechanics. What other cards do the same thing? floodgates. Preventing interaction with cards just isn't fun, and will never be fun, even if counterplay exists.

[@chasing_it_all]

It's definitely an interesting question, and one I feel is mainly about the power dichotomy between the going first and going second player. There's a power advantage in going first for any competitive game, and I think YGO definitely sits on that end of larger discrepancy. There is a *gigantic* advantage to going first in YGO. As of right now in the meta, whether it be a Labrynth trap set up, a Kash lock, or just a simply consistent standard Spright line, the initiative granted compared to going second is pretty grand. I think MBT's recent YCS games against Philipp is a great example. MBT set up a HERO Dark Angel Turn 1, and that was a considerable PITA for his Runick Naturia opponent which ultimately helped aid to a victory. Then again Round 3, MBT had ASF set up Turn 1, and the ship was sunk from there. You may go "but lr, that's just floodgates" and okay sure, but 1) a core point in competitive YGO is to prevent your opponent from utilizing resources effectively *anyways* -- as is in any competitive game -- and 2) the point is the Turn 1 advantage is undisputed. If you need non-floodgate endboards, we have them aplenty with Spright and Branded. Chances are, an uninterrupted going first Spright player has a very, very solid chance of winning. Going second staples are just a necessity, especially for decks which struggle to go second like Labrynth. A grind game for a control deck going second would be impossible if not for the ability to nuke the board via Evenly, Nib, etc. YGO's all gas nature requires this. Personally, I think blow out cards from all ends is just something which has always been with YGO, and the power creep just makes it more and more extreme over time. It's not something going away, and a lot of times you're just going to have to accept, just like what we have seen between a lot of these extremely skilled players at the recent YCS's, you're going to get stopped by 1-2 cards and die. Sometimes your Aluber get will Ash'd with no follow up into BF, sometimes you'll have a great trap set up with Lab but get rinsed by a HFD, and sometimes you'll fail to draw the out to a full Spright board. That's just the RNG of a hyper-paced TCG. Is it going to get better over time? Probably not. If Bystials is anything to go by, part of me dreads the next generation of Handtraps in 5 years or so, but I'll probably still be playing and loving the game anyways.

[@orga7777]

"It's so not fun." - MBT who uses Dark Angel to lock people out of playing the game.

[@lloydbagby8355]

He definitely a going first that wants lock you out

[@indydebreuckere6089]

That stab to MTG at the end was priceless. He didn’t need to do it dirty like that

[@noblue72]

It is hard to even imagine how design cards going 2nd that could beat back big boards without the board breaker staples. You'd probably have to double the amount of text on every new card so it had a "going first" effect to allow you to build your board like monsters aleady do but then add a "going 2nd" effect which is something like "if this card is negated by an opponent's monster effect you can summon another monster in your hand/deck and things like that.

[@Rynjinivar]

If you want a funny borderline good card with this text, Quintet Magician exists. It can't be tributed or used as Fusion material which is pretty solid. Issue is it's kind of a bitch to summon.

[@ryantaylor5137]

How do all 4 of you have the same head shape? It’s the craziest realization I’ve ever had

[@quelqunx7470]

I don't know the wr for going first vs going 2nd, but I'd imagine it's at the very least over 65% for going first and that'd just nuts. But I also agree that it's very unfun to have to draw the unsearchable boardbreaker. Instead of printing more and more powerful going 2nd cards, I think the rules need to be reworked.

[@averyderouchie5867]

Keep making Magical Hats videos and other Yu gi oh videos I love your videos MBT

[@MrMmitsch]

I feel like they missed a few major points. Equalizers make playing archetypes that rely on traps way worse. They make winning the dice roll even more of an advantage because you win game 1 then side 10 “equalizers” and have a good shot at game 2

[@DawnofRoxas101]

mbt really just gave off the energy that he just got dark rulered at his locals and so he wanted to vent for content

[@IIOver9000]

Was really looking forward to those extra deck going second board breakers, you keep your secrets then

[@michel0dy]

I was like "There's no way MBT's opinion is this tame"

[@SLatios]

I hope there are guests in the future. As much as I like these chucklebucks, I think more and diverse voices would do good for the series as well as spotlighting others in the community

[@homerman76]

letting the guests do the guessing would be fun too as these four get more used to how the others play imposter

[@renaldyhaen]

They're fair (and sometimes like what Coder said, they're not good), and MBT talk every fact in the last second about this Equalizer. What I don't like about this kind of Equalizer is usually those cards are an "answer" for strongest deck that format, so for weaker deck, this kind of Equalizer sometimes becomes more harmful and makes the game more unbalanced. Just please make proper banlist or think with brain before making new arctype and make them more "fair" so this game don't need to make another annoying Equalizer again.

[@itsfort2098]

1:43 erm, actually in Pokemon you can go plus a million right now, thanks to the Greninja engine as well as mew & genesect being so strong

[@victorleppas3067]

Another question, having so many cards like Nibiru, the new C monster, 2 anti draw, or maibe 2 monsters's on field or grave negate on T0 is really OK ? Sometimes your opposent can just stop you to play by opening 3 annoying handtraps and still being able to play with his 3 others cards (counting the draw phase) and just FTK you without any chance to set up anything before. Especialy Nibiru than just kill some rogue or fun/mid decks by himself. To be precise, it it OK to be able to full negate or board wipe T0 without any drawback or restriction.

[@minabasejderha5972]

How did it take me until now to realize the four cartoon characters in the thumbnail were them?

[@NightmareEadin]

Funny listening to this right after Tenpai came out

[@SaintoftheHonest]

Whenever people ask ME this question, I answer with a Jayne quote (he coaches Overwatch). "If two people take a fair fight, two people fucked up." Going second cards AREN'T fair - and they're not supposed to be, because your opponent isn't going to play fair either. If you have a problem with that, don't play a competitive game! There's nothing wrong with people enjoying casual decks with friends instead, and if that's how you enjoy YuGiOh, you do you.

[@Ankastraa]

I agree with MBT here, inunderstand that going second is like really tough but i think there is a real world for responsive cards to be printed. Dark ruler and Kaijus just always suck ass to face, either the opponent draws it and breaks your board or its non cards not doing anything in your hand or you dont draw it and you dont break the board. Just like Maxx C these cards easily create non games that were just decided by drawing and resolving one card. I think going second should be designed around picking apart boards with stuff like pankratops for example rather than just playing one card that reads " if you cant counter this i win". Coming from a Master duel player here, i was actually suprised that nobody mentioned branded despia as a strategy thats good going second. Branded is so good at going second thst a few people.mentioned on master duel meta that they pick blind second to rip apart spright boards. This deck almost exclusively runs on engine (+maxx c minigame and super poly) and is still capable of dismantling quite a few boards. thats the going second design i love, decks that slowly break apart their opponents boards with multiple plays threatening enough to force responses

[@pokefreakplays]

I thought I was going mad with everyone either liking board breakers or thinking they were too weak, thank god MBT was brought some sense into it. Everything he said was dead on correct.

[@minkus1215]

Although it hasn't got any crazy support in a hot minute, Exosister is by design a go-second archetype, since your opponent needs to interact with their graveyard to trigger the whole deck. Martha 'fixes' this by giving you an engine starter but it still can be outed fairly easily in the current format. Case in point I threw in a kaiju package into my exosister deck

[@Csthh]

Cap exo is def a going first deck. The deck heavily relies on its traps and the ED cards to doge destruction to form a comeback turn three with you having no cards to play with. That deck would die if it went second because half its engine would just be useless until the next turn. no exo hate though the deck is pretty to play with 😂😂

[@mgdplayz5727]

It seems Joseph is still salty because of prog and Alex's god hand

[@Ragnamune]

If Maxx C after turn 1 with a board of omnis is fair, then Dark Ruler No More into Evenly Matched is perfectly valid going 2nd.

[@Jaddas]

Correct, but here is the greatest part: Its not. Thats why maxx c is banned.

[@nascosta1965]

I'm going to miss this series😢

[@jonas13579-u]

🫡

[@lucasthelegolas8682]

What do you mean?

[@safeandsound712]

10 minutes in and I'm currently certain that Kevin is completely pulling arguments out of his ass, let's see if I'm wrong lol

[@ryanjones_rheios]

Of course Gage would think that those cards reflected on the rogue deck's player and not the power of the cards. He thinks there being an expensive tax to buy-in and play at all is perfectly fine. MBT's rant is hilarious given that he played Blue in MTG. =P

[@misterghen287]

"I don't like cards that are unrespondable" - man who makes a board that doesn't let you play. Going second cards are just Uno reverses, if you got a problem with them them you have a problem with the game.