Are we turning away from Seggs Positive Feminism? 🧐 | Khadija Mbowe

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my links:
Instagram, Tiktok, Twitter
@khadija.mbowe
Patreon: / khadijambowe
Podcast: theleftovermil...
booking: [e-mail]
Books
Re-thinking Sex- Chirstine Emba
Pleasure Activism- adrienne maree brown
All about Love- bell hooks
The Right to Sex: Feminism in the Twenty-First Century- Amia Srinivasan
Some Reads
Why Sex-Positive Feminism Is Falling Out of Fashion
www.nytimes.co...
‘It stopped me having sex for a year’: why Generation Z is turning its back on sex-positive feminism
www.theguardia...
A woman’s right to say ‘meh’: being sex positive won’t guarantee you an orgasm
www.theguardia...
Demisexuality Meaning And How It Affects Physical Intimacy And Attraction
www.elle.com/u...
Casualties of the Sex War: A Women’s Lib Dropout
www.villagevoi...
Tools of the Patriarchy: The Weaponization of Sexual Freedom
msmagazine.com...
Vids/Podcasts
I spent a day with ASEXUALS
• I spent a day with ASE...
Why Straight Men Are Boring In Bed
podtail.com/en...

[@temp_unknown]

I hope like with body positivity we just trend towards sex neutral. Safe sex, but the act of having it/not having it is just a thing individual people do! Let's normalize just vibing and not taking everything to the extremes.

[@KhadijaMbowe]

I hadn't learned enough about it to feel comfy talking about it in the video but I am vibing with that

[@Xan1120]

I completely agree with this. Being disabled and transmasculine makes all these experiences feel much less tangible but being neutral brings it down a peg so I can reach it ❤️

[@botanicalitus4194]

yes yes yes! exactly, sex shouldnt be shamed or glamorized, its just a thing people should do if they want to and if they dont want to then they shouldnt feel pressure to do it

[@roxannelilymaria2581]

@@botanicalitus4194 well put

[@entropyinreverse]

YES!

[@mscateye4777]

What I'm getting from this: let's not adopt stereotypical toxic male behaviors to crush the patriarchy. There are other healthy ways.

[@nowhereman6019]

Yes, this. Something about masters tools and house, idk.

[@Bb-jm6wx]

Thank you !!! Wowww . I am SO impressed by the is conversation I’m seeing! Woowwww ! Ms Cateye you’ve made my freaking MONTH! I thought I was the only one who saw this !!!

[@nicholaslandry6367]

Saw this 10yrs ago listen Didn't listen But saw it

[@lizzycorvus5109]

yeah, my big problem with straight women's idea of sex-positivity is the adoption of sexual conquest. like, I have sex with people I'm not dating but often I'm friends with them or talk to them outside sex, idk, it'd be nasty to brag about 'body count.

[@paolamata6598]

THISSSSSSSS... If we hate that about men , why are we doing the same.. make that make sense

[@curlychavelita]

I was in high school when I learned that even covering up, men will catcall and be gross. It still breaks my heart that as a teen I made the decision to start covering up more to avoid creepy comments from older men.

[@ralphwilsin]

Ew men are yucky 🤢 I would never do that to a woman! 🔥

[@AnnaWillo]

I think I was 11 :/

[@Chachixo]

I'm right there with you. I had big boobs even in middle school and thought no one would know if I kept my polo shirts buttoned up all the way - absolutely silly. I still got harassed so much. I didn't decide to stop trying to hide everything until I was like 27. Somehow it feels like I get less comments now.

[@jelemil]

@@Chachixo yep girls get hit on more than women its fcked up

[@angelsaywhat]

I was definitely 11/12. Cover up because a man was coming in the house like why can’t he just not be creepy

[@KappAlexArts]

As someone with a body shape that is both heavily sexualized and extremely difficult to dress, the sex positivity movement has always been hard for me to engage with. From the fun femme side, the cute "sexy" clothes & culture don't fit and support me, while also escalating attention to my body in a way that makes me feel objectified. I also found some of my man friends embraced sex positivity to talk about sex in a very directed way that made me uncomfortable. I had one former friend start to detail to me in a text message his sexual relationship with his girlfriend (unprompted and knowing I already had a partner) and another friend started a conversation asking my partner specific questions about my partners sexual attraction to my body (while I was sitting right there). Both of these men would probably consider themselves to be allies or at least sympathetic to the feminist movement, and when I pushed back on both of these situations and my discomfort I was brushed off as prudish by each of these "friends". But, my issue wasn't with the discussion of sex as a topic, but the way "sex positivity" seems to be able to used as cover for sexual objectification or harassment...

[@Heljhammack]

This!!! One of my favorite convos I had was sitting at a bar with a male friend in 2014 and us discussing how liberal men started using feminism to gain more access to sex. It’s yet another layer of how deep patriarchy, misogyny and privilege run among cis straight men.

[@florencee3324]

Thank you the sex positive movement is the male gaze repackaged. No body benefits from it besides cis het men.

[@butasimpleidiotwizard]

I feel you, I have big boobs and I utterly hate them because it feels like I don't get a choice about whether I'm perceived sexually or not, my own body is viewed as permission to objectify me, it makes me feel inappropriate just for wearing a bra, something most women can just do without question, but I feel embarrassed not wearing a bra as well unless I'm hiding my body under layers of clothing. Interestingly though I love sex positive feminism and I don't really feel like there will be true freedom for anyone until we embrace it. I just also feel that the term gets misused a lot to explain or justify things which are exploitative, things like your friends discussing their sex life in intimate detail with you when you didn't ask and didn't want to know. Like I enjoy talking about sex and think it should be more acceptable and normalised, but step one in talking about sex is asking for consent, if you know a topic has the potential to cross someone's boundaries you should always make sure they want to talk about it before you start, and never say more than you know they're comfortable hearing. Sex positive feminism should be about being open to pleasure and pursuing sex for your own enjoyment, not because you want to make someone else happy even though it makes you uncomfortable, not doing anything that you don't want to even if society tells you it's important or better or necessary, doing only the things that you actually enjoy. Celibacy is an option there, as is not talking about sex. When people claim to be sex positive but don't respect boundaries it always makes me mad because they've clearly missed the entire point and are now using something that could be really good to just perpetuate the same old problems. The thing that defines sexual freedom isn't the right to say yes, it's the right to say no. It's not liberating if it doesn't feel like your choice.

[@Desimere]

​@@butasimpleidiotwizard Yeah, perhaps the name contributes to the misunderstanding. In essence it's sex-neutrality, but since sex has had such a stigma, even neutrality looks like positivity. But when some people hear "positivity", they feel like it's the reversal of the situation and now they can shame people for not being sexual enough. I often came across "sex positive" on dating sites of men and it always seemed to mean that they are looking for hookups rather than any deeper philosophical meaning. But ofc if someone pretends it's the latter while actually its the desire for more sexual control/power, then that's really effed up. The problem is that a stigma about sex can be hard to distinguish from discomfort. If the reason we have been avoiding talking about it is that it makes some people uncomfortable, not in a way that makes them feel sexually harassed, but because they have been conditioned by culture not to talk about it, then how do we distinguish this discomfort from the one associated with a violation of their consent? Ofc the examples talked here are cut and dry, not up for discussion, but i already have problems with far more subtle things as well. Like how women portrayed in men's anime are often very sexual while at the same time utterly unaware of their own sexuality, in a way that the sexuality is fully owned by the observer rather than the woman herself. Something about that makes me uncomfortable and i don't think it's societal, because society seems to be fine with it. But no matter how wrong that seems to me, i always have the choice to just avoid watching those shows since they are just shows. I already know that maledom is gross for me and perhaps the objectification of female bodies is just a kink in maledom, which is really common. The question really is what should be allowed in the public sphere? How do we define the conversations that we should be allowed to have (even if they make people uncomfortable) and what do we classify as a violation of consent? Right now the perception of how appropriate something is seems to be according to how common it is, while i would like it to be defined in an equal way through the rights of people and definitions of consent. Like, doing a whole bdsm scene in public is considered a consent violation for the observers, so you know you do have some moral right of consenting/not consenting even when you are not personally involved at all, just an observer. But i doubt i will ever have the right of not observing objectifying stuff, or even to get a trigger warning. So, where do we, as a society, draw the line between sex positivity and consent?

[@butasimpleidiotwizard]

@@Desimere I mean I think taking the power out of sex should be the start, it's not that great, its not a big deal, having more sex doesn't make you a better man or a less desirable woman, and in fact women's true worth isn't found in how desirable we are anyway, and society needs to change to reflect that. I think if sex was just a thing that happened and not this mystical secret act that no one was allowed to talk about honestly but that everyone was obsessively interested in in some way or another, it just wouldn't be an issue anymore. The human body is so mystified that we see "the ideal" everywhere but the real thing almost never, we're taught to fear our bodies and that no matter what we're worried about that we can't talk to anyone if it involves certain parts of us, this apparently causes problems in the medical field when it comes to cancer diagnosis particularly in women, I've heard stories of women leaving their breast cancer untreated for so long that they die within days of diagnosis because they were too embarrassed by it to tell their doctor, it's nightmarish stuff. I just feel like devaluing sex, no longer putting it on a pedestal and emphasising it as both difficult to come by and the defining act of human life that everyone must do to be whole or whatever bizarre and untrue ideas we currently perpetuate about it, would do wonders. You aren't missing out on anything by not having it or not having it a certain way and you aren't gaining anything by doing the opposite, except maybe a new experience. You could also try a new flavour of ice cream, or go on a walk down a street you haven't visited before, or just beat off in a different way than you usually do, it's just as good. I like sex but I also like drawing and eating and I would in many situations choose either of those over sex, that's just life.

[@NIKO-gr7vc]

As someone who was raised in a very traditional (see: repressive) home, I was taught to feel lots of shame around sex. Now, even as I’ve mostly unlearned the shame, I still struggle to relate to the nonchalance my sexually liberated peers have been able to embody. I think a major flaw in the sex positivity movement was how it focused so much on sex as a way to reclaim power over men and so little on developing a healthy relationship with one’s sexuality in general. Great video, btw!!

[@transsexual_void_fairy]

same honestly....

[@catlover4319]

Such a good point. Came from a very similar kind of community. I think people forget that sexuality is such a spectrum and embracing the idea that you yourself choose not to have casual sex is in fact being sexually liberated as long as that ideal is what is true to you. Being sexually liberated doesn’t just have to be having sex with a ton of people and wearing skimpy clothes if that’s not where you feel most sexually at peace with your body

[@phoenixfritzinger9185]

Frankly I don’t even really want to have power over anybody Like why is that always the goal for everything I don’t want to become the ceo of whatevercorp I just wanna have a decent place, a person who loves me (or maybe people who love me, I’m kinda curious about polyamory but I’d like to try having only one partner for a while first), and a decent internet connection Why is so much stuff about the world about like trying to become more powerful and like needing to be on the tippy top of the pile like if you wanna learn how to play the guitar or paint or cook or rap or whatever the only way you can validate the time you spent having fun to society is by providing that you weren’t wasting your time by becoming famous or starting a huge company or winning some award Even outside of sex anything pleasurable is seen as being completely pointless unless you also happen to be the combination Michael Jordan-Albert Einstein-all those renaissance guys the Ninja Turtles were named after-Elon Musk-Martin Scorsese of that activity

[@twiggledowntown3564]

I feel this too. It's not necessarily just with sex, it's also with other stuff. They don't judge me or anything, and they're really kind.

[@Kay-jn3wn]

Exactly! Sex education is very poor in a lot of areas, and I had hoped that the sex positivity movement would address that more and take a more realistic approach to real issues in general instead of it being more for entertainment

[@Smile-ni9nc]

I think an important aspect of this is that people lower on the hierarchy (desirability, age, class, disability) are most at risk when it comes to sexual violence. You don't need to be dressed like Gigi Hadid to attract the attention of predatory men, if you look young/lost/homeless or otherwise uncared for/have a visible disability or signal in any other way that you are "vulnerable" you are more at risk

[@KhadijaMbowe]

!!!!!

[@Automated_Angel]

FACTS

[@toomuchinformation]

I read about some research that questioned rapists and they chose their victims based on their vulnerability, which makes perfect sense.

[@JulietteKernDiamond]

So much goes unreported though. I wonder if people who dressed provocatively, looked beautiful blame themselves and are less likely to report. I say this having been rped and having friends who have been rped. Just a theory because I hear this Stat a lot and it doesn't line up with my experience or the experience of my friends.

[@writteninstars]

I can attest to this. I look younger than my age, but i also used to dress and act in ways that made people think that i was in high school. ive had men made comments about how “young” i looked and how “lost” i looked. i did a major wardrobe change over the summer and those comments have stopped since i started looking my age. i also dont get pestered by older men when i go out anymore. it’s sad.

[@diamcole]

The older I get, the less and less I feel the need to label or brand anything. I do what works for me, what feels good, what is consensual, and what makes the biggest impact for those around me in my community. That’s really it lol I’m basic as hell.

[@eheeg4324]

You took the words out of my mouth!

[@demonnogo]

Don’t see it as being basic, just see it as simplicity. It’s better to let go of the complications and flow with what works for you.

[@transsexual_void_fairy]

i don't get the consent thing. like yes, people should consent... but doesn't that apply for everything in life? my guess is "no", which i'm saying because i know that peer pressure is a constant feature of life, parents in this day still act like their children and pets are property..... and it seems like consent really, actually, isn't a thing. consent shouldn't just apply for sexual activities. i hope that made sense.

[@iwasbornunderwater]

Same and if that counts as being basic then so be it 😄 It's peaceful over here.

[@laurengeorge4251]

i personally think hookup culture is overrated. i hate it. it's hard to find someone to connect without the thought of sex on their mind. i wish people were looking more for a good thing than a good time. i know this is kind of hard to hear but i just wanna vent a lil bit.

[@kaimoon3232]

Lol hi I'm 27 and I used the sex positivity era to claim my sex life back after being assaulted in my college years. It did nothing to heal my wounds, instead I still feel immense shame. I really wanted men to feel accountable for harming me and instead of going to the root cause of it (actually getting justice), I just felt used. I no longer engage in sexual acts, I've chosen celibacy and I don't even find an appeal to talking to men anymore. I wish the sex positivity movement was a safe space for victims, I would've avoided trying to claim my body back by using the same thing that broke me

[@sb1206]

This. As a fellow survivor I feel you completely.

[@AliMeetsWorld]

I heavily relate to this ❤️ love and support you my friend

[@honeybun224]

Girl same. It’s called hypers3xuality, a common trauma response. Something I learned years later, in therapy.

[@Noise_floorxx]

Go to therapy. No "movement" will heal your individual trauma. Sure it can lend support but only you can fix you

[@chuusenberg519]

@@Noise_floorxx true

[@asulaboo7703]

I saw a comment on Reddit that said “Conservative men want women to be private property. Liberal men want women to be public property.” And I’ve been mulling it over for days. As a tacked on point: I feel like I still have a bit of trauma from the early days of internet sex positivity, and seeing the men who claimed the title of feminist turn their ire onto the ‘prudishness’ of conservative women. Hurling all manner of sexualized violent language at women who were saving themselves for marriage, saying any woman who wasn’t a kinky submissive who wanted to be choked and battered was a ‘repressed conservative’ and bragging about how liberal girlfriends are so much better than conservative girlfriends because their liberal girlfriends were wild in bed. Idk, it just sticks with me so viscerally.

[@mirandawhittaker8481]

Liberal men are often just as sexist to their wives/girlfriends/lovers/employees as conservative men. They just do this behind closed doors and lie to themselves about it.

[@why7189]

I dont trust either of them. Conservative men are misogynistic in a classic way, while liberal men are misogynistic in a new age way. Men will always reap ALL of the benefits of seggs positivity while never having to deal with the negatives. Because everything is centered around male pleasure and the male gaze. You point this out to liberal men and they call you a prude who hates seggs workers, you point it out to conservative men and they call you a man hating sjw.

[@kattodoggo3868]

I remember that. If you didn't call yourself traditional you were labeled as some liberated goddess of sex aka "open minded".

[@treacherousjslither6920]

I'm a liberal leftist egalitarian heterosexual man and I don't want anyone to be property. People shouldn't even own pets imo

[@erinsymone1645]

That's a very old radical feminist saying. I really wish we hadn't decided to collectively throw out the very valuable work of second wave feminists under the guise of calling them all feminazis. They had VERY important things to say about men, women, s3ggs, and the patriarchy.

[@agnesh.1155]

As a lesbian growing up in the early 2010, I was convinced that sex positivity was a clever ploy invented by men to gain easier access to sex and admittedly I still think there is some truth to this statement. Though the idea is very simplified in its premises, I feel like access to sex with the development of dating apps and OF has never been easier.

[@hangygirl8217]

and you are right

[@waluigisim]

This is certainly one of the reasons why it was allowed to become mainstream compared to other branches of feminism

[@firstnamelast5474]

@@hangygirl8217 thats why political lesbianism is the answer

[@eg4441]

@@firstnamelast5474 if i understand correctly that's just choosing to not engage with men romantically/sexually. what's the point in including a term for a sexuality that is natural and can't be changed in a label that has nothing to do with your actual experience of attraction? genuinely curious, correct me if i'm wrong about what i said

[@firstnamelast5474]

@@eg4441 personally, i was comp het for a long time because i felt like i HAD to love men. I felt guilt tripped by society, like I should love EVERYONE and be endlessly forgiving to everyone/godly/graceful. But as I got older I just DISLIKED men more and more on a personal level. I didn't know I was attracted to women because I thought most people were just born gay or str8 and I would know if I was gay. I felt like I was WRONG for wanting to date women "because I don't like the way men treat me and I don't like how most men act in society/are conditioned" and like to be a lesbian I needed to KNOW from childhood that I like girls only. I felt really wrong for "politcally" liking women, I wanted to drastically decenter men from my life, without necessarily knowing that I was capable of experiencing physical attraction to women. But sure enough, with real LOVE and initimacy/kindness - I'm absolutely attracted to women (and then over time I was able to accept my attraction to women more after falling in love with a woman). Point is - if you ever feel imposter syndrome about liking girls - ignore it! And saphicc love can be SOO much more nuanced than hetero patriarchal love (like ace dynamics are amazing too and can be so intimate and fulfilling, just one example of all the different kinds of love WLW are capable of experiencing, and theyre all super valid)

[@frederikewalinsky2062]

I agree with the point that sex positivity without self respect doesn’t lead anywhere, and self respect imo comes with respecting the other person as person no matter how short the interaction even when it’s casual you can’t truly have two way consent without that respect, even if it’s sexual pleasure centered there should be a point in valuing all parties for consenting to it and not pressure to do so to “be empowered” or in control

[@AW-uv3cb]

Word! One of my most positive sexual experiences ever was a one night stand where I had... actually much least interaction beforehand than usual. The guy was respectful from the start and at the end of the night he just openly but politely expressed interest and then just gave me plenty of time and space to decide for myself without pressuring me in any way. It felt like everything about it was 100% my own choice and I knew that if I had decided otherwise, he'd be okay with that too. Can't say that I do one night stands on a regular basis but that was an amazing experience, all because I knew my choices were and would be respected.

[@angelface333]

yes

[@kayboy6055]

we're just using random titles to vaguely describe even more obscure aspects of the human experience. what the hell does "sex positivity without self respect" even mean. I think you truly can't even begin to grasp philosophies about sex positivity before developing a very comprehensive view of your self and your boundaries to begin with.

[@belencita9526]

Well said!

[@ExeErdna]

@@kayboy6055 Self respect is knowing what they want before what the movement expects from them. Like you can be sex positive and not partake in sex at all. Sex is about consent and not control, it isn't a race but an experience. The reason why sex positive movement turned off people is because of expectations and assumptions. Some people want softer play or they don't last very long. Not having their back blown out, or like lasting an hour.

[@jacquelinealbin7712]

Leftist and progressive circles have major issues with how they frame sex as part of "empowerment" or "liberation." I'm not closed-minded or conservative for being monogamous or taking relationships slow. The focus on sex-positivity and how aggressively it was pushed on me made me hate the feminist movement for a while as somebody who has been through trauma. Now I proudly call myself a feminist prude, reclaiming it, and support sex-neutrality as the best approach. I hope that "prude" can someday be reclaimed and defanged so women don't feel pressured to *avoid saying no* since really, prude-shaming, even subtle prude-shaming in feminist circles, perpetuates rape culture and shames women for turning down sex with men.

[@aishwaryakhadka2103]

i agrée though- id just add that a lot of leftists coming from an anti- capitalism standpoint would agree with you that it’s been ridiculously paraded as empowerment when it’s not. i’d say that problem lies mroe with the liberal branch

[@queerlibtardhippie9357]

Prude will never be reclaimed. Men will naturally always value you more because they know you're hard to obtain.

[@ExeErdna]

Even as a dude I was like "eww" since this isn't good for women overall especially if they're going after men that also just used as objects as well. The people involved are hurt, the fans addicted, while the media profits. Being a prude is like looking at those food videos where you see massive gimmicky foods and going "you don't need all that" which is true. A part of sexual "empowerment" is saying no and not feeling shame for not being to somebody's sexual assumptions.

[@lalat5899]

Everything your saying sex-Neutrality is is what the sex positivity movement was supposed to be lol. I think people just get the biases mixed on the subject because of the stigma of sex in general.

[@tinagold3395]

Radical feminism has been criticizing “sex positivity” for years

[@Cluzygirl13]

Feminists who initially advocated for sex positivity had a much more nuanced message than what the broader cultural reception would indicate. In the early 2010s, feminists did specify that women should have the right to explore their sexuality in a safe, healthy environment without broader cultural stigma/shame, and that sexual partners should care for each other's experiences even without a long term romantic commitment. The broader culture (perhaps willfully) misinterpreted that to mean "sleep with whoever because #feminism #hoelife" The reality is that sex is an intimate, vulnerable activity, especially for women. Women* are on average smaller than men. They're more likely to be the party being penetrated and at risk of physical injury as a result. Women are more likely to be murdered by an intimate partner than men. It's easier to pass an STI from a man to a woman than vice versa because of biology. All of these things are physical realities even before you get into emotional burdens and broader cultural reactions. There's also the painful reality that sex can be a source of trauma even when all parties conducted themselves with the best of intentions. I think millennials resisted acknowledging these things partially as a reaction to the extreme degree of shame/conservatism applied to sexuality while we were growing up. If conservatives had any valid point about sex, it's that sex should be conducted responsibly by emotionally mature parties who are prepared to deal with any outcomes of having sex. Sex is also expensive. Birth control, regular STI screenings, condoms, emergency contraception, potentially an abortion (if you can even get one post-Roe), all add up even before you get to the differential grooming expectations between men and women. Women are stuck with any resulting children (and have to deal with any physical/professional/practical consequences), and in the US, there are literal billions outstanding in unpaid child support. Women* bear nearly all of the risks of sex and are rarely rewarded with even an orgasm. Why would women keep choosing a bad bargain? (* assume for the sake of this comment that I'm speaking about average cis men/women having sex with each other; exceptions will always exist and LGBTQ people's experiences add interesting nuance not addressed here.)

[@mirandawhittaker8481]

That's the exact thought I had when I was younger and surrounded by sex positive types. This whole thing only works if the sex is...good. An orgasm at the very least. Without that it's a big risk, low reward prospect. Seems inherently unfair.

[@diabloakland]

I actually disagree about sex being intimate only for women especially. It can be true but that comes from millennia of shaming. I am def more of a sexually conservative person bc of my upbringing

[@yuqihuang2255]

The expensive part is only relevant If you are poor, personally it’s not that bad

[@sophialeejhonson]

@@diabloakland true

[@radiationshepherd]

I agree with a lot of this except that conservatives think sex should "be conducted between mature parties" considering they support religiously charged teen marriages with as little sex ed as possible

[@AutumnFS]

I grew up fundamentalist Christian and was taught that sex was wrong in any context except marriage, so when I became a 20-something feminist liberal, I became hypersexual as a sort of pendulum swing. Sex-positive feminism is generally a good thing for society I think, but for me what it did was provide a cloak for me to hide why it was I was actually hypersexual. It enabled me to deny the role that past sexual abuse and fear of abandonment was playing in my sex life, and that the regret and shame I felt about casual hookups wasn't JUST patriarchy rearing its ugly head, it was also a subconscious knowledge that I was doing this partly as a form of self harm. I did not care about myself and engaged in risky sex with random people I didn't even like because of it. I had to relearn my sexuality after being in therapy and relearning what it meant to me to BE a sexual being, and how deeply I even wanted that to be a part of my identity.

[@Nikki-lodeon]

Ah, This! I feel it. Thank you for sharing.

[@Heljhammack]

You are not alone! I relate to this a lot. Thanks Autumn

[@TotsFabulous]

How did you just write my biography? Except the therapy part. That's still on the to-do list 🫠

[@totallythandi2555]

This!I so relate

[@zna9297]

Yeah, gosh. Thank you for writing this it feels good to know there’s a other side

[@Marta-zm8oe]

I think a big problem (in addition to those that you already mentioned) was that hookup culture became the norm of dating, and that many didn't have the emotional tools to navigate. At the same time the lines were blurred between what is sexual autonomy/liberation and what is seeking external validation through sex. For example, sometimes when I hooked up with someone I would feel more powerful, improved self-esteem and so on... was it sexual empowerment or male validation? This is the question I cannot find an answer for

[@ojyochan]

It's probably both!

[@priscahermene9107]

Ugh same issue here. I’m learning it’s more male validation because when I’m not satisfied with the sex, how can it even be liberating, “being sex positive won’t guarantee you an organism”

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

​@@priscahermene9107 That's a great take. I approach hookups this way: Why do you even have sex? If a) intimacy with a partner, that doesn't explain why you're hooking up with someone random. If b) pleasure, that also doesn't explain why you're hooking up with someone random, unless you know for sure beforehand that they'll be able to give you an orgasm (the chances are not in your favor). If c) validation, that 100% explains it, because you're not doing it for intimacy or pleasure so any random person can provide what you're looking for. And hookups are risky and expensive for women on top of everything else.

[@schoolhookeygirl]

Did you enjoy it? Did it feel empowering for you? Did you feel safe, secure and protected? - it could very well have been empowerment. If you felt like you were trying to portray a certain image or solely please a man, it could have been the latter. You have to be the judge of that.

[@nowhereman6019]

Hook-up culture is just capitalism in a sex-skin.

[@iii2594]

I feel everyone just immediately jumped on sex positivity and cranked it wayyy up (namely the hookup culture aspect, more than the "no shame for women for enjoying masturbation and sex" aspect) before we even achieved gender equality. In other words, it's just adding a scoop of "pro sex" on top of an already existing patriarchal and sexist society. There are still a lot of grey areas and existing stigmas and prejudices (like, even if we don't really "slut shame" anymore there are A LOT of people who still have that remaining silver of deep-rooted biases. also, why is it that even today there are people with "highly-respectable" jobs get fired for posting their vacation bikini photo on social media?? hmmmm), power/structural imbalances, that can turn sex positivity into exploitation very quickly.

[@sregan5415]

THIS. 100%.

[@futureshocked]

This is one of the better replies I've seen on this. I'm 40 and have studied kink since I was like 19 (so 2000 or so). I've been encountering sex positivity, but as a term used for Sex Ed spaces. What has been happening lately is just total and usual capitalistic co-opting of an idea/culture and now you all are confusing it for the real thing. But regardless, yes it's been unleashed on a populace that wasn't ready for it but so be it, honestly.

[@readyornofjk]

ALL facts on this one

[@schoolhookeygirl]

Finally, an insightful comment lmao

[@joeycognition8824]

Too much of something is bad, society sucks and moderation at times

[@Nikki-lodeon]

I really appreciate this. I've noticed that there are a lot of men who are all about feminism... as long as it benefits them. As soon as it's inconvenient (like asking them to do some work on themselves), then all that goes out the window. Shout out to the men who live feminist values even when it's uncomfortable or inconvenient! Also, I felt seen when talking about women who can afford protection vs. those who can't when expressing themselves in certain ways. I always get frustrated when someone tells me "wear whatever you want and screw what other people think or do!" Like, I'm sorry, but I *hate* being stared at, sexualized by strangers, or harassed on the street (not that anyone likes it, but some seem to be able to ignore it). I realize that it will happen sometimes whether I'm wearing a hoodie or a mini skirt, but I live in the real world. Wearing a mini skirt will increase the number of times those things happen to me by a lot. It sucks, it shouldn't be that way, but it is. I don't think I should be told to just ignore what other people do or say. I've been through SA multiple times. I don't need to be triggered by some dude at 7-11 staring down my shirt when I could have just covered up and lived my life. I don't think everyone needs to live the way I do, but I also don't want to be pushed to be the person who wears whatever she feels like because f*** what everybody else thinks. I'll have massive anxiety from the time I leave my front door to the time I get home. Okay, rant over. 😅 Thank you for this great video!

[@just_a_head-u5s]

Every word of this comment is a mood, I felt this in my soul. Thank you for sharing 🤍🤍

[@shanicelacy7894]

"I've noticed that there are a lot of men who are about feminism... as long as it benefits them" Exactly!!!! When you are critical of the sex trade, or the oversexualization of women, a lot of men get defensive. Men should be for the liberation of women in all aspects. Not just sexual liberation!

[@Nikki-lodeon]

@@genevieve2683 the scenario that often comes up is something like Me: "I wish I could wear this, but I won't because I'll get more attention than I'm comfortable with." Friend: "Don't worry about what other people think! That's not your problem." Me: "I get that, but I also just don't want to be stared at or looked at sexually and I'm afraid it will happen if I wear this." Friend: "Who cares? You shouldn't worry about that. That's their problem." But, it's kind of my problem because I'm the one being stared at. I can't just snap my fingers and not notice that I'm being leered at or wonder whether that guy off to the side of the room is staring at me or just spacing out in my direction. I get that it doesn't bother some people or they'll get confrontational about it, but I just want to be left alone and largely ignored in public.

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

@@shanicelacy7894 OOP!

[@girlwhomustnotbenamed4139]

@@Nikki-lodeon This resonates so much! Like yes, I am aware I should probably have stronger and healthier boundaries and I'm working on it, but it's a big ask of a lot of us to take on the emotional-psychological burden of navigating the harrassment we come across the moment we leave our home. It's triggering and exhausting and when you know you can expect it, it's just easier to not pick the mini skirt even if you want to. It's all kinds of fucked up but we gotta live our lives.

[@eliontheinternet3298]

I'm really hoping that we as a society move away from the "positivity" movements and towards the "neutrality" ones. I hope we start seeing things like sex, femininity, and body weight as not being "good" or "bad" necessarily but just facts of life. I hope we get to a place where the only impacts they have on our lives are their actual impacts, and not their moral goodness/badness.

[@sofhris4982]

Facts

[@Pineapples8theWorld]

Love this

[@Kateiswriting]

I agree so hard. Especially in relationship to the *endless* conversations about "reclaiming femininity": not everyone who doesn't care for pink does so out of a deep-seated internalised misogyny. Some people's tastes just don't run that way and that's fine. I feel like there's this pressure to be always performing and curating a list of likes and dislikes that pass some kind of moral purity test.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Funnily enough, sex positivity, when started, was far more neutral than it is thought about now - it was supposed to be about women doing whatever they liked with sex, whether it was sex with another or themselves or queer experiences and was respectful of boundaries and did not assert that women had to have sex. In other words, despite its name original sex positivity was sexually neutral expectationally for women, and its name, trends of making the personal political, and perhaps a rejection of prudishness and more staid forms of feminism made it what it is today, which is to say not feminist at all. I guess, then, the downfall is that it was never explicitly specified that it was ok to not have sex or to not have that active of a sex life, meaning it was easily co-opted.

[@alim.9801]

​@@Kateiswriting man you hit the nail right on the head with that last part

[@sb1206]

In 2019 I started “dating around” after getting out of a long term relationship. I was 23 and on the apps just like all my friends. I had so much unsatisfying sex during that time, got ghosted, the whole nine yards. I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do but looking back I didn’t want sex, I wanted intimacy. I ultimately learned a lot about myself and now understand that having sexual boundaries is key to my self esteem, safety, and health. The brand of sex positivity of the 2010s honestly did not teach me about this and I think a lot of men benefited from the confluence of my ignorance, sexual trauma, and desire for acceptance. I hope less young women/femmes have to learn the hard way like I did.

[@GDL364]

Sex positive “feminism” only benefits men but no one wants to be honest about that. It’s sad that young women have to learn that the hard way.

[@livics610]

Can you get to intimacy through sex?

[@iateyursandwiches]

You didn't know that about yourself? Lol always be true to yourself and be self aware.

[@iateyursandwiches]

@RighteousTruth not really. Depends. Not everyone( mean not every women and not every man to spell it out) is the same. My advice is "do what comes naturally" to you. If you don't care and you just want to bang go head, just be safe. If you are looking for a deeper connection, then clearly hook up aren't for you. It's that simple.

[@sb1206]

@@iateyursandwiches I hate to break it to you but billions of dollars are made each year teaching young women and girls to hate themselves and cater to male desires. It impacts us all, especially those not fortunate enough to have positive female role models. Not sure what’s funny about that to you.

[@KhadijaMbowe]

Listen, this video wasn't scripted so I probably missed a lot. Share your thoughts so the girlies can broaden our perspective!

[@roxannelilymaria2581]

You've also included a lot 💜

[@KhadijaMbowe]

@@roxannelilymaria2581 💕

[@123SWAGGY]

Im going to try to tread light in the space hoping for grace, when it comes to sex positivity I think alot of men are stagnant one reason is the perception of sex as this kinda reward for putting up with or convincing the person attached to it. The amount of dudes i know (especially older guys) who will unprompted tell me how they would never give oral sex and if im a man I shouldn’t either is crazy, if you can get away from that the lack of sex education means you have to figure it out likely with someone just as anxious and confused as you

[@_maia_m]

Thank you so much for making this video! There's space for so many more people in this discussion when it's opened up like this, and made more nuanced than the either/or of the sex positivity movement. Including ace people and including people with sexual trauma. I hope you will expand more on it!

[@josuesjourney6931]

I have noticed more women disagreeing with the idea that women should just be able to have segs with whomever they want with no emotional significance whatsoever, and I don’t think I’ve heard the same critical opinionated thoughts about men and their promiscuity. Thank you for sharing this video Khadijah. I’m glad I wasn’t so indoctrinated to think I shouldn’t be a better partner in bed, I could use a book tho. Also such cute merchandise, I’m totally gonna buy some when I get the monies. I think it’s totally valid to have some humanity in sexual relationships, care for boundaries that come from way beyond the bedroom, one boundary can definitely have a resounding effect on the traits of an individual in bed. Also what about the development of two individuals seeking to cultivate trust, comradely, and partnership.

[@isabelleharris6480]

"there's no reason to use 'men are hopeless' as an excuse to not ask them to be better." khadija your videos push ME to be better by thinking deeper about all of these complex issues. thank you

[@m00nrac00n]

My main issues with the S-Positive Movement are: 1. Downplaying the dangers of S-Work, as if its this easy way to make money when you are young for a few years. Just no, S-Work Survivor stories are heartbreaking. 2. The "Shaming" of Monogamy aka being called conservative or whatever for just wanting a nuclear relationship/family. Its literally so difficult to find people who are still open for this kind of relationship, especially if you are demisexual/have insecurity/trauma from getting cheated on. 3. Teaching Girls its something they HAVE to take part in, you HAVE to be s-positive as a Women or you are boring/undesireable...which leads me to the last point. 4. Is it liberation tho ? A LOT of those ideas of expressing sexuality are rooted in male fantasy, it still serves the desires of men in the end...Men will take this behavior of celebs and use it against normal everyday women by expecting them too look/act like this. S-positive Feminism can be weaponized against Women.

[@toomuchinformation]

Tbh, anything can and will be weaponized against women.

[@geohatz4838]

Well said 👏

[@lilybaggins140]

Period 👌💫

[@toomuchinformation]

I remember reading that the sexual revolution only really benefitted white m/c women. Working class/Black Women weren't beneficiaries at all. In fact a greater sexual CONSERVATISM would help BW and W/C White Women.

[@toomuchinformation]

Have you read: "The Case Against The Sexual Revolution" by Louise Perry? It expands upon everything that you've said.

[@RapidBlindfolds]

One of my most loathed parts of sex posi feminism is poly people saying that monogamy is based on problematic ideas of ownership and control. If monogamy is inherently corrupt and abusive or whatever, that would mean that cheating is perfectly acceptable. The person in the wrong in an instance of cheating was the ‘controlling’ partner who had the desire for romantic fidelity, and the cheater was simply exercising their free will.

[@thesevenkingswelove9554]

Honestly those poly people are just saying it for the sake for saying it. I don't think they even believe what they are saying, they spew our hateful things because it's different to them.

[@RapidBlindfolds]

@@thesevenkingswelove9554 agreed, I think it’s a performative demonstration of how unjealous and supposedly insecure in yourself you are. And a lashing out against stereotypes of poly people as inherently corrupt, greedy fboys by coming up with their own form of slander against monogamy.

[@bannanas-8203]

I strongly disagree with poly people that saying that... the main problematic issue with monogomy is the fact that it's kind of seen as the "default" thing to do, the only right thing, when living this or that way should be a councious choice. Also, unlearning the fairy tale narrative that there's this one soulmate out there who is gonna make us "complete" is important. Everyone should obviously have the choice to live in a monogamous relationship or not, both are equally valid.

[@mirandawhittaker8481]

Yeah...I saw a lot of shaming of mono people (mostly from poly dudes). Which always struck me as... suspicious. Again: sexual lib has all kinds of dudes backing it when it benefits them...

[@dlorien7792]

i myself am poly, but this.. lemme tell ya, this reminds me of the biphobic tiktok lesbians. just like how other lesbians refused to claim them, we will refuse to accept those types of poly people

[@KittyKat101MT3]

I think there is a whole conversation to be had around sex positivity and it’s impact on the ways people view the sex work industry. I think people have used it to ignore the very real dangers and trauma that sex workers might experience. It’s also I think what has contributed to the massive growth of OF and people realizing how they can capitalize off of sex positivity.. not saying it’s inherently bad, but definitely interesting and feels very complicated when you get into the topic of porn. There are people who go into sex work because they want to and feel sexually liberated, vs people who go into sex work because they dont have another choice.

[@Feliciations]

Yes, yes, yes.

[@KittyKat101MT3]

TW: potentially triggering discussion of feeling pressured into sex/sexual acts Also! The ways that sex positivity pressures women and teens to view sexual empowerment as simply just the act of having sex (and a lot of it). Speaking from just personal experience here, but as a demisexual/person on the ace spectrum myself, I am 23 and only just within the past couple months have realized the ways that my mind got fucked up as a teen and I started having sex before I think I was fully ready, and doing sort of extreme fetishized things that my partner wanted to do, because I thought that was what sexual empowerment was (keep in mind, all of it being consensual, but just not necessarily what I myself wanted). It isn’t until now that I’ve realized I spent my teen years going through the motions and doing things that my peers were doing or what pop culture talked about, and feeling like a feminist for it. Needless to say the realization that I’m demisexual came with a lot of baggage. Don’t even get me started on the intensity of BDSM content on 2010s tumblr, a lot of which was consumed by teens. Edited to add: nothing wrong with BDSM in terms of it being a very real kink/fetish, but I mean going too far with it. Internet culture constantly pushed (and still does) that “vanilla” sex is boring and you shouldn’t be having it. I believed this as a teenager, and it caused me harm. I felt as though I *should* like things that I just didn’t. But there are plenty of people who genuinely enjoy and would prefer “vanilla” sex!

[@mandark1727]

@@KittyKat101MT3 No no, theres plenty within BDSM we need to unpack, too. As long as misogyny and just gender-based power imbalances exist, there will be something to criticize within kink.

[@sydastark]

Well said. The first sex I was exposed to was fetish stuff and I thought no one would be happy with me without those extremes and a willingness to do anything. When I became a dancer my dad‘s main concern was whether or not I was making money. Or at least that is the only concern he expressed. I would’ve told everyone I was liberated and empowered at the time. Hindsight is sharper for sure. I know that at that time in my life I encouraged misogynistic behavior in the men around me . And it hurts my little feminist heart.

[@asafoetidajones8181]

One of my.. acquaintances went into sex work, not because she was forced to by circumstances (she was doing well financially), but because she thought it was empowering, feminist, trendy etc. It really fucked her up and she's dead now.

[@eleanoralawrence8619]

I'm a younger woman who has been kinda put off by sex positive feminism less so by the questions of exploitation (I'm one of the lucky lesbians mentioned lmao) but bc its part of the "individual choice as inherently political act" framing of feminism. sex positivity for me is kinda inextricable from both the girlboss feminism you mention and makeup-positive feminism which is literally just about decontextualizing choices from societal pressures and saying "if youre doing it it's #revolutionary!!!" Kinda sick of that brand of "activism" because it can't challenge why a person makes the choices they do, is often super focused on consumption, and is fundamentally about the individual not organizing as a community. Just my perspective on it!

[@girlwhomustnotbenamed4139]

I love this perspective, I think you hit the nail on the had! Unfortunately, a lot of people can't think in terms of systemic problems because those are not immediately visible and not intuitive. You have to actively educate yourself to be able to see larger trends and I think many people just don't have the time, the interest and/or the capacity to do that. Very often they aren't even aware that there is a difference so all they can do is explain everything through an individualistic lens.

[@marslara]

I think this is an unfortunate result of how social media is so deeply ingrained in everyday life. People have a hard time separating the internet from reality and adjacently, people can't help but think about things they see on the internet through their own frame of reference if that makes sense. What I mean is when people see something on the internet and some "trend" is really popular and center in their mind, they automatically associate everything that fits that narrative into it. So in this case, the act of feminism being placed on anything that shows a female doing something that "looks" revolutionary such as dressing provocatively, not wearing make up, etc.. We don't see people as individuals anymore, we see them as to how they fit into whatever popular frame of mind is on the internet. There's another video I remember watching for a bit, talking about being ✨Black ✨ vs being black that made me notice the same thing. On the internet there are no longer people who play games, that is now their whole personality, no longer people who like to experiment with clothes, only "fashion gurus," etc etc... It doesn't help that social media promotes this "genre" effect on people. Popular accounts on most websites have one "thing" they do, they are reduced to that thing, and everything they do is viewed through that "thing". And so it spreads to normal people as well even if that is not the poster's original intentions.

[@Sol-fo2zu]

Very well put.

[@leolong2984]

Precisely. This is the trend many political movements take when they are narrowly focused on a single issue. If you think about it, it makes sense. A lack of intersectionality means entire segments of the collective are ignored, thereby leading the political movement to trend towards more individualized approaches, glorifying the choices on a micro level, as opposed to, as you put it, actually organizing. It's why it's dangerous to focus on singular issues without the whole intersectional picture

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Idk why being lesbian would change anything. More likely to be abused by a partner in a lesbian relationship, after all.

[@TinyGhosty]

You really nailed it by saying that some people used Sex Positive Feminism as "NLOG Feminism" and also how some men acted like they were on board with that kind of feminism but did no work to better female sexuality or feminism in general. Yes Khadija Yes!!

[@prettynpetty8342]

She really nailed that. Absoultely correct!

[@Danglecaraco]

I definitely feel like a lot of men (me included) were all for the sex positivity movement because we saw how it benefited ourselves, with little regard for why women were doing it and not considering how we needed to help.

[@Checkmatehyena00]

I feel like this red pill movement is us men's response to the sex positive feminism movement, it's like it was fun when we were in high school and college and just having sex then we get older and realize there's more to it relationsups with women than just the physical....but we not having that conversation from a feminist perspective but from an angry man perspective unfortunately

[@kruggyy]

You’re horrible honestly

[@morganburt2565]

so, i have a naturally big butt, and i’ve been working out more. along with that, most the shorts i have are pretty short. wearing these shorts, i’ve gotten so much male attention. although a lot of it was polite, i hate having their eyes and attention on me in this way. i’ve started buying basketball shorts, just to avoid this, just to feel safer

[@niloticnya]

same and i hate that i don’t look good in clothes meant for other body types. i feel like i have to keep wearing body contouring clothes

[@transsexual_void_fairy]

male attention? you mean catcalling and being brushed against and shit right?

[@Nikki-lodeon]

@@transsexual_void_fairy just being stared at sucks.

[@niloticnya]

@Merula Amethyst no i understand. im short and it makes things so much worse

[@mea864]

I wear oversized minimalist fashion exclusively and it has worked for me. Sucks but I don't get hit on all the time like I did when I was younger.

[@fiona1109]

"This is what happens when you liberate sex without liberating women." - paraphrase of a quote

[@aissatabangoura2908]

I like the fact that you mentioned the fear of women saying their a feminist. I’m currently struggling with this too, simply because of the fear of perceived/judge a certain way. Tbh I’m not sure what exactly I fear I may come across but that’s something I’m trying to figure out for myself.

[@roxannelilymaria2581]

I think, akin to religion let's say, feminism has become a set of different branches with different sets of beliefs. I choose my own belief system re. Feminism. I implore you to find what you truly believe too Iim not a male apologist or a pick me girl, but I'm not this eras feminist either. I should find my own label but that would almost be redundant when chewing the chud with like minded individuals. So I find I have to say I'm a feminist as a lot of my beliefs line up with that.... However these days there's such a stigma to modern feminism, or rather this most recent wave, that I don't fully identify with it. It's like saying I'm Christian and believing everything except the jesus story. Hope I've not gone too tangential here, it's late where I am 😅

[@psychomaia]

I’ve been criticised by a friend for identifying as a feminist and it hurt but what makes me more sad that she’s a woman who has such a negative view on feminism when it benefits her. Without feminism we’d have a lot less rights than we do today. It’s in every woman’s benefit to be a feminist but that’s jmo

[@MISSMADISONMEDIA]

Fuck what people think lol

[@aissatabangoura2908]

@@MISSMADISONMEDIA 💀

[@EC-yw5hg]

baaahaa, I’m way past that stage. now I’m working past the fears of having terf / swerf thrown at me bc people are afraid of any idea even a little outside the status quo, so they try automatically calling u a bigot to shut you up (even tho you’re just trying to protect yourself and fellow women….and shutting up to please other people is the complete opposite of feminism).

[@upsidedownindu]

I think access to internet porn (and the increased presence of violent/"degrading" sex acts in mainstream porn) had a dramatic effect on attitudes to sex in the 2010s, and we are still seeing a lot of the fallout from that today. There are straight men who seem to struggle with distinguishing between what they see in porn and interacting with real women. Almost as though women in the real world are just extensions of their own fantasies, ready to play whatever role has been assigned to them.

[@iateyursandwiches]

That's true, but really it's been a problem since pron's conception in the 70s. It's super male gaze centered.

[@mnchldd]

Not only straight men, I see the same around queer guys

[@ThePrincessUmbrella]

This exactly!! I want to support erotic media in theory, but porn is soo awful about violence, consent, racist fetishes, unrealistic body types, etc. that I find it nauseating and can't support it.

[@malum9478]

you all need to actually learn if you're going to be real feminists with intersectional analysis and a real desire to see a more fair and free world, or if you're going to be the same "feminism is when i hate men" type of straw feminist that make up the bulk of proto-terfs. because if you're actually trying to say that you can't support sex work because 'men might like it', and then scapegoating sex work as a result, then allow me to let you know right now: *that ain't feminism.*

[@jarenfromvenus]

I refuse to let men’s lust and control issues run my life. Sex isn’t bad but it’s over saturated at this point. We can’t go a day without sex intertwined in everything.

[@daniellebrinckman7101]

The podcast “we’re having gay sex (whgs)” from Ashley Gavin was one of the biggest game changers for me. I had always seen and been taught that you either have sex cause you love someone or it is casual hook ups which mean you don’t have to care about the other person. From the podcast, I began to see (for seemingly the first time in my life) someone who could hook up with someone casually and still treat the other person as a human being.

[@Candela115]

I honestly didn’t get that until I had a fwb that actually treated me like a person and was nice and respectful even after we had already had sex and actually hung out with me and spent time and listened to me. I realized I had been settling for less than the bare minimum when it came to hookups because I thought that was how it was supposed to be unless you wanted to date them.

[@liladuran8733]

It was kind of concerning to me that, while hooking up with people from Tinder, people thought I wanted to date them simply because I didn't objectify them. Like woah that's a low bar, no, i don't want to date you just because I don't treat you like a sex toy.... maybe I see your humanity and just wanna have a good time. I think this is also what makes hookup culture have such a bad rep: we are doing it wrong. We should be able to respect each other and see each other's dignity without having to be in love with each other. Like really? Being in love is what it takes for you to treat someone as a person worthy of respect and dignity?

[@watchyamouth22]

Thank you !! Everybody act so cold to prove a point like you can be compassionate and just want sex and nothing more

[@val5431]

u explained my experience perfectly! every hookup I had in the past I was asked if I wanted something romantic based on my behavior?? Like me asking about ur boundaries and treating you like a human= dating?? that’s terrible edit: grammar

[@iantaakalla8180]

It also implies that the only way people looking for casual sex will see you as a person is if they are also romantically in love with you, which is certainly not feminist at all by any measure. Which sucks that the expectations became that.

[@birdiewolf3497]

Well sex positivity without any meaningful advances against rape culture and patriarchy was always doom to fail. Cis heterosexual men in general are not safe sexual partners. A lot of them have zero understanding of consent. Let alone all the uncomfortable/unethical actions that might not be see as sexual assault, but leave their partners feeling degraded and unsafe.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Funny considering how more likely SA is within non-het relationships then, eh? I guess CIS Lesbians are just flat out dangerous sexual partners.

[@emmie1176]

Louder for the people in the back!

[@o.k3841]

This is so well said, +1

[@RuanMei_SocietyGenius]

What about bisexual and pan men?

[@RuanMei_SocietyGenius]

Let those weirdos and creeps be alone the rest of their lifes.

[@crazziii_]

I'm only at 26:46 so forgive me if I miss any nuances from the rest of the video, but what Khadija is describing here (men reaping the benefits of sex positivity without engaging with the learning that comes with it), is the exact toxic situation that can be found in countries where women's rights are still minimal. I'm part of the Indian diaspora, so I do my best to keep up with what goes on in India and, using that country as an example, there is a growing sexualisation of women in its media, presumably in an attempt to mimic Western media and to promote the 'girl boss' narrative, but the vast majority of the general population is still struggling with basic rights for women. It's a situation where men with little respect for women to begin with are being spoon-fed an over sexualised image of women, and who then walk amongst ordinary women that are poorly protected and who live with the constant threat of horrendous acts of violence.

[@floffy2695]

I'm Indian and I KNOW what you're talking about. Taking the narrative of sexually liberated women as the new type of 'independent, modern' women feeds into the fantasies of men who already view women as sex toys that it'll be empowering and alright for women to have sex and be depicted this way, while the vast majority of ordinary women are out of touch with basic human anatomy (cough, cough, their own menstrual cycles and genitals) and are over-controlled and repressed for their sexual desires. It's another point on how social media and online activism is vastly out of touch with ground realities.

[@s29nv1sr1]

I'm Indian diaspora too, and I agree. In multiple film industries we have "item songs" (which I honestly feel like have gotten more vulgar and sleazy with time, not less) for actresses to cater to the male gaze under the guise of s/x positivity, and yet we hear of a s/xual crime against woman almost every single day in India. It's depressing. We just can't be seen as anything more than objects

[@zyrxom]

I’ve actually grown to like the idea of men not being necessary. That idea actually alleviates a lot of stress off of me. I’m not needed, I’m not required, I’m not holding the world up. The only reason I’m around is because the people want me there. I like it.

[@zanthiablue5254]

The twenty tens were my teen years, and i do think it really did effect my process of understanding my body in a negative way. It was like i was being told constantly that the thing that would make me more confident in my body would be to fit it into a mold that would be more attractive to men. I would say i liked myself as i was, even though i knew i wasnt conventionally attractive and they would ask "but have you tried make up?". It was this constant reminder that no one saw my body in the positive light i did, and could only see me as an ugly tomboy in denial waiting for the make over that would make be beautiful.

[@rhiawolf]

You're awesome, Khadija. As a life-long pro-sex feminist, even before the 2010s, I almost didn't watch this whole video because I was so annoyed by the idea that sex positivity had gotten too extreme. When you've been raised in an abusively sex-negative environment, it's pretty painful to consider pulling back from sex-positivity before all genders and orientations are safe and celebrated to consensually pursue their own sexual desires. But I'm glad I kept watching through the whole video, because you're absolutely right that sex-positivity is only actually sex-positive or feminist if people are completely free to say no OR yes. AS DESIRED. As things stand, it's still hard for many of us to even know what our own desires ARE, much less stand up for or pursue them. We can't be sex positive by pressuring people toward sex any more than away from sex (or by failing to acknowledge dangerous realities for regular people). Acknowledging one another's full humanity -- inside or outside sexual relationships, with or without sexual desire for one another -- is required. As categorically sex-positive as I am, I rarely take new partners precisely because I so rarely feel fully respected instead of used. Sex positivity done right is an all-encompassing path toward freedom. Follow it far enough and it intersects with every other civil rights issue.

[@KhadijaMbowe]

💕💕💕

[@saxviars9749]

I learned that this part of feminism wasn't for me when I was about to have sex with my first male partner after like the first date. I told my mother that I was going to become sexually active to her horror and I was all excited to finally "do it" and feel that "empowerment" for myself. Yet as I stared blank at his naked body (I remember he said it felt like I was just analyzing him like a scientist or something haha), I realized that woman was definitely not me. We did not do much that night thankfully, but it forced me to honestly sit with what I truly want and figure out my own personal values. I think this movement was good overall though because I think it prompted discussion on a women's pleasure outside of the male gaze and overall increased public knowledge on how female genitalia functions.

[@botanicalitus4194]

i agree with what you're saying, but its still a problem that most women who have sex with men have their pleasure completely disregarded. Pleasure is a fight for women but a given for men, and a lot of these women who have been used and discarded have started to do that back because otherwise they get zero pleasure. Its a dog eat dog world and its unfair to expect change to initiate from the side of women. If men started to forgo their own pleasure for women just like how women have been doing for men forever THEN those women will stop looking out for their own pleasure exclusively. I mean even in marriages and long term loving relationships, hetero women rarely ever orgasm, so this isnt a hookup culture issue, its a men issue

[@Bri-ns5rm]

I’ve got married/LTR friends sleeping with men to maintain the relationship while not getting oral (that they want) or being an afterthought. Some don’t enjoy it at all. These emotionally deep relationships aren’t equating to fulfillment either. At this point, it very hard for me to prioritize a man’s pleasure over mine, and even put them on the same level. Of course, I want the mutual pleasure fantasy but right now it’s just a fantasy.I feel like it’s a choice of forgoing s*x with men (which can be deprivation and unhealthy) or making lemonade with the lemons. Do I think it’s a anti-capitalistic, feminist stance? Not at all, but our options are not plentiful.

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@Bri-ns5rm exactly

[@imanigordon6803]

@@botanicalitus4194 If you’re not willing to initiate conversations in the sexual space mainly dominated by women with men I don’t know how you can expect change. Like you said it’s womens sexual orgasms being held back not mens. Men definitely aren’t going to discuss it because we don’t wanna be viewed as creepy ever since the Metoo era so the ball is really in womens court to open that discussion.

[@Bri-ns5rm]

@@imanigordon6803 why aren’t men discussing it together? That would eliminate making a woman feel creepy. What is consent to you and your friends? Have y’all ever felt uncomfortable with a partner? What are your hard limits? What are you open to trying? What makes you feel vulnerable? Statistics show that pleasing a woman is most mens primary desire, but what do y’all think that means because there’s a disconnect? Have you ever felt like a partner was faking? How did that make you feel? What type of p0rn are you watching? Do you think it affects how you are in bed? If your partner doesn’t have an orgasm before you, will she? How much time is spent focusing on her pleasure vs yours? Where does shame come up for you? Do you feel like there’s a role you have to play? What is it? Why? Is that helpful? What do you want out of s*x? Do you feel liberated? Do you feel fulfilled? What would make you? What does that mean to you? You can even journal your thoughts. Men have lots of hang ups about s*x and just as much problematic programming as we do. It’s hard to have conversations with men who aren’t actively on their own journey. I would be more open to conversations if men came with some research vs it feeling like they just want me to tell them what to do so you won’t be accused of being bad. A lot of men are just going to have to step out of faith and be vulnerable.

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@imanigordon6803 "Men definitely aren’t going to discuss it because we don’t wanna be viewed as creepy ever since the Metoo era so the ball is really in womens court to open that discussion." Got a point here. A lot of these threads I see a comment where I want to offer my insight to try and add a new avenue of discussion to the topics being discussed in this thread, or simply to ask a question, but I hold back because the overwhelming vibe i get is that this is the women talking amongst themselves and a man's opinion is not welcome here, so I step back and don't engage. But you did kind of touch on something I almost wanted to say to Botanicalitus or B999, but didn't want to be clowned on or dogpiled, but I was wondering if women just speaking up for themselves and telling men what they want is just out of the question. Like, is there any avenue where a woman could try to politely open the sex discussion before doing it, ask for things they want, and if the guy acts like that's way out of line they just don't have sex with him?

[@sz.nick994]

Gaaaarl your timing is perfect. We are starting to have this conversations here in Brazil, which were triggered by the overly sexualization of some very popular brazilian female singers such as Anitta, Luisa Sonza and Ludmilla. They have always been shamed and critiqued for the kind of music they do (Funk, a genre consider vulgar), for their dancing/performances, for showing "too much" skin and being "vulgar". You realize through their interviews whenever they talk about these topic that they pretty much grow full of people's shit and decided to embrace whatever the identity that media and public had already marked them with. That's why their music/performances has become much more explicit each year that passes by. And of course, for the money and fame. They crack the code of the mysoginistic society and realized they could make a lot of money by sexualizing themselves. They are the perfect depiction of the girl boss who profit's off the demand that exists for the access to women's body. What a lot of feminists are saying it's that this so called "sexual freedom" they seem to represent it's a discourse that endengerous other woman who don't have protection that money and fame secures these famous women and contributes to the fetishiseition of latin women. I think we shouldn't get caught in the same old blaming woman for everything but I also think we are onto something here. If those super famous and rich women have the freedom to be overly sexual without suffering backlesh/violence outside social media, good for them. But that just go as far as an individual winning. Let's not pretend it's doing anything for feminism and women of low classes, cause if anything, it's doing bad. If you want to, watch the music video of the song Café da Manhã - Luisa Sonza e Ludmilla. It's a bop, amazing to dance to. But falls into all the traps we talked about, including fetishizing lesbians to the male gaze pleasure.

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

The only reason I’m iffy about Anita is because of her racism and fakeness. Cannot stand her.

[@unexaminedlife6130]

Girl, I don't want to lump those brazillian singers in with Tokischa from, Dominican Republic? But my god. I'm a millennial just about, 96 baby, and damn I can see the issues now. I'll never say those women endanger me, as you said, but we can't get away with the same shit and not be in danger. No barrier of wealth for us. So they're msg doesn't extend that far, it's not feminism it's business.

[@sz.nick994]

@@unexaminedlife6130 exactly!

[@magaaliii]

Please could you share some links where I can learn more about this conversation in Brasil?

[@sz.nick994]

@@magaaliii Sure! I've seen some feminist Instagram accounts talking about it, but KZbin videos not yet.

[@user-rf7os6kx3z]

I became overwhelmed with my own curves and body, now I'm hidden from the world smh, I feel like men can't seem to get passed lust smh I was married for 15 years been single for almost 2 years and I still don't want to open up to dating, I really believe I'm okay with holding my sexiness to myself.

[@terrabranford9253]

I think we’re seeing more of an divesting movement within feminism that is dwarfing the sexual positivity crowd who ruled. Many women are giving up on this notion of being a prize and commodity for men in favor of just loving yourself.

[@MsElizaRae]

Facts! Especially because a lot of men still treat 'prizes' like shit! Lol

[@lamenia]

Many people need to be able to define what they mean by being sex positive. Sex positivity does not mean a lack of understanding of social context, personal goals or values, or responsibilities. The goal of sex positivity is acknowledging women as sexual beings and reduce stigma associated with female sexuality. It seems that some people misunderstood the assignment. The goal is to allow women to choose the type of relationship they want which means be realistic with your goals rather than following along.

[@ArtemisMunoz]

As an aspec (aromantic and asexual spectrum) person I’ve always had a more nuanced understanding of sex positivity. The community as a whole was always forward with sex positive ideas despite many of us not being super into sex. We looked at it from the angle that any expression of one’s sexuality (obviously consensually with all involved) was a natural and good thing - even if that expression was to not engage with others sexually at all. I love what you’re saying about sexual partners being on the same page though. May be some nuance I’ve been missing.

[@Ash-tu1oc]

Glad someone brought this up! I'm also aroace and am fairly sex repulsed myself. Despite my own slow learning to feel more comfortable showing skin and presenting myself as more “sexually” desirable, I always was on board with the sex positive movement. Since to me, and most of us I presume, sex is really just an activity and should be destigimatized altogether - as neither a shameful or holy thing. To me, the whole movement was never about institutional change, and was solely focused on a cultural shift so I respect that a lot. That stuff matters, Especially as someone from an asian background where there is still just so much slut shaming and violence centered around showing any skin. I guess it just makes me grateful to be in a society that is more sex positive than repressive, because the latter is still objectively worse no matter how you slice it. It may not have connected with everyone due, but it was and is a great step in the right direction. Even if everyone may have varied thoughts about the concept due to lack of interest or trauma or not fitting in, we all should fight and push for sex positivity. If we don't, it'll slip out and right from under us before we know it.

[@sentientplant9658]

I'm just ace (sex-repulsed) and I definitely like the idea of sex neutrality; just do what YOU want and what works for YOU and don't push it onto other people and be respectful. It would be a lot less daunting for me to actually start dating. The expectation of some sort of sexual activity on the first (or any) date scares me shitless, but in a sex-neutral society, that expectation wouldn't be as huge, you know?

[@ArtemisMunoz]

@@sentientplant9658 see pushing things onto people doesn’t line up with sex positivity in my head but I admit that I have a very specific experience that leads me to define it that way.

[@sentientplant9658]

@@ArtemisMunoz it's always been pushed onto me that's why I describe it like that.

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

As another aspec person, I've found sex positivity to have a largely detrimental impact on society, and predicted that when it started being mainstreamed. So many people I know have been pressured into sexual activities they don't want to do because they feel like it's important to prove they're "liberated". A colleague of mine, when I worked at a high school, overheard two freshman girls discussing how much they dislike being slapped during sex, but took it as a matter of course-because they and their peers were coming of age in a society that's less about sex positivity than hypersexuality and overconsumption of porn. Maybe it's conceptually sound, but that's in a perfect world, not the one we live in.

[@Acidfunkish]

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." I think one of the problems with our culture, as a whole, is that the pendulum DOES swing to each extreme. Progress is not linear. Once you reach the point in progress at which the most privileged people start to feel a little less special, they start to fight - and vote - back. With feminism, we kind of had a good upswing, from the 70s to the 2010s. But then old, conservative, and religious people saw the sex positivity movement, and were suddenly like, "Nonono, these liberals have gone TOO FAR, this time." They start voting more conservatively, and those politicians try to roll back all of the human rights protections. We've seen this with not only feminism, but with racism, religious discrimination, fear of immigration, and definitely more recently, transphobia. Anytime we start to make progress towards equality, it ends up scaring the olds and conservatives. They can't put us all the way back to the 50s, but they sure do try. I know it's depressing, but try to remember that - overall, and over time - we will always eventually end up heading towards a more progressive future. But, there will be a few speed bumps in the way. ✌🏻

[@Sol-fo2zu]

Thank you for the quote

[@schoolhookeygirl]

SPEAKKKK on it!!!

[@stephenjenkins7971]

There is nothing that points to there being a more progressive future. That may be the general case in the West, but most places across the planet progressive ideology has either been crushed or dialed back significantly. And there is no guarantee that this trend in the West will continue as more oppressive governments spread their ideology and beliefs.

[@MsAaannaaa]

to me sex positivity never was about having a specific kind of sex or having a lot of sex. it was about letting people have the kind(s) of sex they like to have without shaming them. and I still stand by that sentiment. I just think that the quieter parts of the movement were often overlooked: the aces, the demisexuals etc. because we're not as vocal or visible (and probably for many not as desirable). however, to me we're an integral part of sex positivity, because in the end it's all about self-determination which - in my opinion - is the core value of feminism.

[@nunyabusiness164]

Sex positivity as a concept has really helped me. For years I repressed my attraction to men because I felt powerless and afraid after being assaulted as a kid. But I was able to process all that and now I just wanna have kinky ass sex with my boyfriend and not feel ashamed for enjoying it. We should make sure to focus sex positivity on women's pleasure and consent or it's just more encouragement to do what men want.

[@kruggyy]

Ew you’re gross

[@Heljhammack]

Incredible video!! I am currently in grad school studying human sexuality. This is such an under analyzed topic. I’ve found that something sex positive feminism did to me personally (it started when I was a teen) is put me on a toxic cycle where my entire self worth was based around sex. I know that for many people they didn’t have as extreme a reaction but I internalized be a slut do what ever you want as sex is the most important thing you can do. In order to have more sex you need to overlook your own moral boundaries and accept what you can get. I was having a lot of sex with a lot of people who I did not like or would be involved with otherwise. I also was not my authentic self because I was worried of being rejected. I’m still trying to repair from the damage this caused me mentally and have found luck with recovery groups and therapy. Another huge issue which you touched on is that men are seen as either fuck boys or dangerous. This is such a binary way of thinking and a disservice to men that promotes the patriarchy. As bell hooks says feminism is for everyone and when feminism is cliff noted or ignores populations (cis men, trans and non binary folks) it’s messages become water down and easily dismissed. I’m not sure how coherent any of this has been but this topic is a passion of mine. My goal as a sexual health professional and a human is to promote healthy sexuality that is not one sized fits all, instead it is as diverse as our world.

[@shomshomni2314]

Totally agree. I look back and see it as a total scam and ploy by men which allowed them to use women and treat us like we're disposable without consequence. We fell for it.

[@madcat6159]

Thank you for sharing that, it's great that you found help and are getting better! I've had a very similar experience. I grew up in a very politically polarised country and being a liberated sex positive feminist seemed like a requirement for me to belong in the liberal (opposed to catholic-conservative) spaces. I felt like I needed to dress sexy and have sex to not be seen as one of "them" and be considered cool. And it all happened in late school and early university years so when I was in a very vulnerable place only beginig to navigate adult life. It made me objectify myself and do things I wasn't comfortable doing and actually caused me sexual trauma I'm still dealing with now. I was deeply shocked when at the age of 19 I learned about the concept of consent and that I don't have to like everything that someone wants to do in bed (and still be a "liberated" non-conservative women). Looking back it seems both ridiculous and horryfing to me that that something I (and many women of my generation) have grown up to see as feminism was still based on centering our lives around men, self-objectifying and basically focusing on fulfilling their desires and giving them pleasure. It's so gross and wrong. I'm in a much better place now also going to therapy for quite some time but I feel it's still affecting my life and changed my sexual preferences in a way that some of the things I used to really enjoy are unfortunately still a big no. I'm really glad that its becoming more and more criticised and that we're starting to have this discussion about what effect this culture had on us. There was this time after I realised how it damaged me when I was soo angry that progressive spaces still endorsed it and called anyone who objected a prude. Like no, I'm all in for sex positivity understood as destigmatisation, respecting our and others boundaries and caring for enjoyment of everyone involved. And proper sex education!

[@madcat6159]

And yes to the second part - I actually understand that many men feel lost when norms expected of them based on their gender are being challenged and change so fast. Many of them genuinely wish to learn how to be better but this kind of narration antagonises them and makes it easier for them to be convinced by alt right alternatives. I strongly believe that what we need to do is learn to live in the same space with each other and work together on creating better models of non-toxic masculinity. Thank you for convincing me to finally read bell hooks I've been recommended her books (even borrowed one) but couldn't find the time - definitely will now!

[@mrdiego4368]

“Men should like sex positive women” only still focuses on men on how we can have sex without a conversation.

[@rome2989]

men don't want to wife "sex positive" woman they are 304s

[@Nortarachanges]

I just wanted to thank you for the discussion. Being aroace, this isn’t really up to me. I just want to ask for a place where I don’t have to be considered inhuman. There was a whole lot of “sex is what makes us human!” talk in sex positive feminism. But I am not about being the example of a “proper woman” by conservatives to shame allo women in comparison either

[@chuusenberg519]

Sex is what makes us human?? People be saying that 😭

[@Em-jc7ct]

@@chuusenberg519 Yes. Especially to asexuals but in just general sex positive spaces too

[@Em-jc7ct]

I'm ace in my early 20s. I definitely felt a pressure to have a "hoe phase" and have a "hot girl summer" and all of that. I felt I wasn't an actual feminist if I didn't, I was being a prude beacuse I was following conservative sex restricted thinking even though I live in a librel, non religious area. The only influence I had was the internet feminist culture I grew up in. Now I can think more critically I'm able to distinguish the toxic sex positivity and the healthy type. I'm now feeling a lot less aphobic towards myself with this realisation.

[@stitchedwithcolor]

I think part of the mess we have run into over and over with each wave of sex positivity are that ultimately, we still get stuck on A. expecting people to curate their appearances to please others, and B. changing the standard for how much sex an adult person "should" have but still HAVING a rigid standard instead of just letting people decide for themselves what they need. I would like to see a world where we don't shame people for having lots of consensual, casual sex, yes, but also where we don't shame people for deciding to wait a long time for sexual intimacy, or even choosing never to engage in sexual intimacy at all. Years ago, i remember a period where my friends enjoyed playing a non-drinking version of the old drinking game Never Have I Ever. It always struck me as interesting the way those with low numbers and those with high numbers seemed both lifted up and weighed down by others' attitudes about how much they had done, even in a group with lots of queer, poly, leftist, anticapitalist, easygoing friends.

[@sulmascalelover2957]

Hey, as an aro ace, just wanted to thank you for acknowledging our existence in this conversation. I remember when I read feminist writings for the first time in college that I felt excluded by many of their definitions of love and intimacy and was alienated from their main points as a result. Acknowledging aromantics and asexuals in your video helped me better understand how I relate to this topic.

[@pensivesoprano1637]

"Inviting men into the fold" is an extremely important thought. Thank you for this video.

[@David-oh_Davey]

This [edit: the beginnings of this video] also gets me thinking of a cycle I've observed that men can fall into, where patriarchy grinds them down through forms of emasculation (e.g., razor thin views of masculinity and manhood), fostering a desire to dominate another perceived as "lesser" in whatever sphere of perceived or legitimated power they have.

[@David-oh_Davey]

I agree to an extent about the demonization of some forms of masculinity (some of which I find valid). Though I wouldn't say that feminism is actually what demonized it, rather, that some people identifying as feminists did so. For me, to say that masculinity was demonized rather than certain expressions understood to be masculine (whether the expressions actually were or not), would be a bit of a broad sweep. Now, if someone believed those expressions to actually be masculine, perhaps the only or best forms of masculinity, I could see why they would think that all of masculinity was demonized. I think the representation issue and lack of spaces for boys and men to discuss masculinity in more expansive ways is a reflection of patriarchal systems that fashion razor thin views of masculinity and manhood. Why talk about it, there's a prescription already, kinda thing. And if you do talk about it then there becomes the outgrouping experience (which is fortunately becoming less and less prevalent). Truth be told, I think it's normal for there to be a backlash or reaction against expressions of masculinity that put people down (psychologically or physically) for the sake of building the boy or man up. That, to me, is the toxic element. It is rather normal to me for there to be resistance of those expressions, and if they are considered masculine, then therein lies toxic masculinity. This is not to condone KAM-like reactions, but the reaction is reflective of a source (it doesn't happen for no reason). And I have yet to come across a feminist who is opposed to critique aside from asanine remarks that -- and here's the kicker -- seek to put down others, rather than to seek understanding. It could also be a cycle of neverending insults with no understanding as to why people might bash masculinity in both valid and invalid ways. When I hear men holler in such ways, it makes me wonder just how hard they identify with the form of masculinity in question. I agree with you about the problem with people wanting to replace patriarchy with matriarchy -- I would much prefer no archy. I agree that that does nothing but eliminate the meaning of feminism in public opinion. And you said it, this world was built by men and for men (patriarchy), although much of the building involved men who were domestically supported (which is huge, and also not the only help they were given [edit: or forced to be given through violence]). To me, as generations become more willing to treat their children, especially those called daughters, as the valid human beings they always were and not stock to exchange for land, there would be a reaction against oppressive expressions of masculinity in a world made for men.

[@firstnamelast5474]

@Idekatp hard disagree. Women should be allowed to hate men and say "KAM" and express frustration about how the patriarchy beats us down in a never ending way that is so bad some of us do fear/distrust all men, rightfully so. So many men have abused, killed, exploited us for SO LONG. I'm TIRED - women should be allowed to hate men and form a society WITHOUT them. Men aren't entitled to us. We should be allowed to say "i hate all men". When we say it, women rarely mean "lets actually kill all men seriously" because we KNOW what its like to go through the horrors of genocide and oppression and wouldn't wish it upon others. But MEN have a problem with not understanding social nuances and GENERALIZING AND STEREOTYPING WOMEN/NOT SEEING US AS PEOPLE! Isnt it fucked up that we have to censor our pain for men's fragility so that they dont STEREOTYPE and OBJECTIFY us and think "all feminists are the same". We are allowed to generalize because we have been historically beaten and killed. Men generalize for the sake of dehumanizing and hating us. They should stop generalizing and assuming thT women are as evil as them.

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

@@David-oh_Davey Your point about why there's a lack of (healthy) spaces for men is a really interesting one, because I've wondered why so many men feel compelled to enter women's spaces and intrude on our conversations (when they're coded as women only, at least) instead of having that discussion in men's spaces. Although MGTOW is ostensibly for men, it seems like many of them are still obsessed with women, just in a different way, so those spaces also don't really qualify. I think you've helped explain some of what confused me, so thank you! I hope men are able to collectively develop healthy places to have those conversations in the future.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Hardly just men. That standard of masculinity in many ways is demanded by women. In fact most standards of beauty and aesthetics that people feel beholden to are just what the opposite sex wants as most people are Het.

[@firstnamelast5474]

@@stephenjenkins7971 "most people are het" also colonialist propaganda. You need CRT from indigenous and black voices ...try "the invention of women" by Oyèrónkẹ́ Oyěwùmí

[@nana-ix]

as someone who is neck deep in misandry and holds onto my hate for dear life as it makes me feel safe from being hurt again and again I agree that we need to ask for more from men and holding onto hate just makes it easier for them to step away from feminism and caring about women.

[@actualgoblin]

@@christopherbrown5409 self-awareness is the first step to change

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

@@actualgoblin No, that comment is right. She’s part of the problem.

[@roxywyndham]

You are not part of the problem. You hating men affects nothing, I wish it did. I wish just the simple hatred for men could cause change but it doesn’t. So hold on to your hatred if that’s the only way you can protect yourself for now and work through what you got to work through in therapy but it doesn’t have to be how to love men. Nope. Not one bit.

[@nana-ix]

@@roxywyndham i know, all it does is make it easier for men. smh.

[@outsidethewall8488]

I mutually ended (my first) truly healthy relationship close to a year ago for a variety of reasons which I do not regret. One thing I have noticed though since being single again is that while I still have just as much sexual desire, having now experienced a consistently respectful sexual relationship has really turned me off the idea of random hookups. Even before that relationship all my 'hookups' were with people I at least somewhat knew because I don't trust strangers, but I'm finding myself turned off the idea of looking for hookups just to satiate my libido. It doesn't come from a place of judgement towards hookups but it does feel like I have become even more selective with who I want to allow access to my body because there is an inherent intimacy to sex, although it definitely needn't be romantic. I kind of can't believe I've made it this long without really having any sex, especially because I really believe in the core ideas of sex positivity around embracing and empowering female desire. But I really resonate with the ideas discussed in this video around where we draw the line between sexual liberation vs sexual imitation (of men) to the point of exploitation and/or allowing objectification. Lots of food for thought.

[@Molly-iw1rc]

It is so interesting that feminism for some manifested into the same toxic traits that men have for women. Like how things that girl bossing could've been represented (like women's freedom to pursue and be respected at work) turned into toxic business man ideology for women. Like, it's almost a pattern of something slowly turning back into patriarchy like a big circle, rather than a progression of ideas away from patriarchal forces. But it is hard to collectively steer everyone away from those big systems and ideas, especially when money gets involved and class status gives certain privileges, it will take a lot to get everyone on the same page.

[@fatimahanwaar306]

exactly!

[@Lunareon]

People using each other as human vibrators confuses me, because women are often just getting a much worse deal in a cishet setting. Like, why would you trade your highly in-demand assets for such little (if any!) added value compared to an actual vibrator? Some of the participants really need to up their game, indeed.

[@xxx_putin_has_a_flaccid_pe5374]

It certainly doesn’t help that the sex education most people get will barely mention the clitoris, if ever. A lot of people but especially men, end up only being taught how to actually *have* sex by things like porn……which you can guess, is very heavily catered to men. Most of it is a pretty terrible source for learning how to satisfy women.

[@lizzycorvus5109]

I consider myself sex-positive broadly, but I'm also trans, bi, and polyamorous, so the idea of sex-positive feminism popularized by images of famous cishet women isn't in line with what I believe. Like, I think straight hookup culture is kind of nasty, I have sex with people I'm not dating but also women really shouldn't appropriate patriarchal 'notches in the belt' sexual conquest language.

[@lizzycorvus5109]

The sexual conquest angle is what obscures a proper emphasis on finding your boundaries, finding out what you do and don't enjoy, rather than performing to any standard

[@frederikewalinsky2062]

It also connects to adultification and how children are less seen as whole persons and sexual empowerment or service being markers of women good and hence increased visibility it’s dangerous to not practice intentional and well positivity sex positive feminism

[@frederikewalinsky2062]

*womanhood not women good

[@777bookmoon8]

wait are you bl*ck? adultfication literally only applies to BW though no other group are seen as that but us?

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

Yeah, the rise in pedophilic aesthetics/narratives parallel to societal hypersexuality is deeply concerning, especially because children have been absorbing them. There's a level of normalization through underage celebrities celebrated for inappropriate content and styling and mainstream approaches like "the child [scantily clad, performing a suggestive dance on tiktok, etc.] is fine, you're just sexualizing them!". It's resulted in pretty broad desensitization, and we've already seen how much easier social media has made accessing and grooming minors; they're not growing up with a healthy sense of boundaries and sexual identity as it is, and the mainstreaming of this kind of behavior is making them more vulnerable than ever.

[@777bookmoon8]

????

[@majlordag1889]

@@strawberryinsomnia9188 I agree 100% I've seen people use that argument many times that you shouldn't force kids to dress/act less sexual because it's your own problem if you think they're dressing/acting sexual and then YOU'RE creepy for pointing that out or trying to get them to behave more appropriate... sick.. I used to get shamed for being a virgin since I was 13/14 I'm 24 now.. sick

[@emile7794]

Love this video and everything you're saying! I'm thinking too, hookup culture is also just perpetuating the sentiment that the only person that matters/the only moment of your life that matters is your married spouse/being married. Instead, why can't we care for and respect people in one-night stands and relationships that don't end in marriage? Marriage doesn't have to be the end-goal!

[@laurengeorge4251]

i think it should for marriage or just committed relationships. not saying mariage should be the end-all/be-all, but sex is an extremely intimate and raw experience where you are sharing more than just fluids; you are exchanging energy. and if done with the wrong person, the energy around and how people see you changes. be careful out there! ❤

[@sun4500]

Exactly i don't understand how sex stands in between respecting someone as a person whether that person be a spouse or just a casual hook up.

[@wanderinggstars]

TUESDAY DOUBLE FEATURE: Mina Le just posted a video about the female/femcel/female manipulator trend happening right now and it pairs really well with this video! Also Khadija, i must say you have really helped me ask the right questions to myself about what kind of relationships are supporting me and which ones are not. i find myself doing lots of journaling after your videos :)

[@steamyvegetables1445]

Dude you watch her as well. What a coincidence, I just watched Mina's video today

[@andie599]

As someone who finally had a hoe phase at age 28 after being in an 8 yr relationship with the person I “lost my virginity” to, I was so surprised at how fulfilling and positive my experience was. Maybe I’m just lucky but I felt respected 95% of time, I was able to have sex for the fun of it, and really learned a lot about my perspective and value on sex. I was expecting a lot worse as a straight woman in Texas 😂

[@ralphwilsin]

As respectful as possible (no hate you don’t have to answer), but do you mind telling me how many bodies you have?

[@ralphwilsin]

@@andie599 Ok cool! I was just curious! As a male of my size and stature I have never had the opportunity to have a hoe phase! (Yet) I think having the ability to have sex is so cool! Did you even have to ask?

[@andie599]

@@christopherbrown5409 I don’t see losing your virginity as an actual thing anymore and see it as a harmful social construct instead

[@mandark1727]

being 28 undoubtedly helped. The partners are older and more mature (presumably), and you yourself were less easy to take advantage of.

[@hannahcochran9416]

@@christopherbrown5409 not OP but I understood the quotations as an acknowledgement that virginity doesn't really exist. It's a narrative thing, not a biological thing.

[@colbykamilah]

I've never been into exposing my body or hooking up just because, and it's not because I grew up religious or because I was told not to by my parents. I personally never saw the benefit in it. I do not like drawing attention to myself, I'm introverted and naturally reserved. I've always felt like my power came in other forms, not from drawing attention to myself or from being sexually liberated. As far as dressing provocatively, you took the words out of my mouth! These celebrities have security. They can preach about that stuff all they want, but they are protected and many of them do not acknowledge this. The average woman on the streets will be harassed and it can become dangerous, I've seen it with my own eyes.

[@anajaecurry5718]

I feel as if the medias version of sex positivity was never actually positive. It over sexualizes minority women and isn’t very realistic.

[@emilyonizuka4698]

omg a kitty! and yes, as an aroace person who was still trying to figure that out during the whole girlboss having sex left right and centre was weird. I was like okay I don't really wanna have sex but apparently I'm supposed to be having a lot of it in order to be a good feminist. which was also weird since I was in an abusive relationship at the time (like 19 - 20). so in the asexual community we would talk about how sex positivity is doing what feels right for you sexually, whether that's having a lot of sex or not a lot of sex or none at all. it's having the sex life that feels best for you because you have the right to your own sexual autonomy. but the mainstream version was just very hit it and quit it all day every day.

[@iateyursandwiches]

Idk, I think alot of you were making this more complicated then it ever had to be though...you don't have to engage in everything as much as you should support other women who do and not shame them.

[@TheLaughingDove]

I feel so frustrated with what people seemed to take away from the idea of sex-positive... For me I always thought of the goal to be taking sex off the pedastal and looking at it with nuance and removing taboo so people couldn't hide daggers in the fog. I always wanted people to be able to think about sex as just another thing you can do with your body. Like. I am very positive about martial arts, say. But that doesn't mean I think everyone should punch each other, that everyone would want to. Acts of violence and structural oppression through it exist in the same world as people who use it as a hobby with friends, a spiritual calling, a medium of meditation... It just. There are so many kinds of intimacy in life and I want both for people to appreciate better the non-sexual ones and to be able to speak and communicate about sex at least as freely as they do about cooking, dancing or fighting. It won't fix violence in itself, no, but the shroud is infuriating. I don't think people deserve to inherently feel shame about how much they do or don't want sex. Saying no to it and acknowledging the risks it can pose were always part of what I considered sex positive feminism in the same way that pro choice does not require one to have abortions. Maybe I fundamentally misunderstood what everyone was getting at, maybe the original idea got corrupted and misused. Just exhausting.

[@ju1iaonline]

yeah i feel the same way. feminism and other movements get twisted and blamed for things that are literally just an effect of the patriarchy not cooperating with them, or actively exploiting them and destroying them. then because the patriarchy is the one in power, people jump to attack the movement since 1) that's the easier one to attack 2) the patriarchy manipulated them, yet again, to assume women and queer people were the problem.

[@360shadowmoon]

I responded really well to the sex positive movement in college to counter the toxic slut shaming, abstinence only bullshit I had to grow up with. I grew up in both a religious family and a misogynistic culture that shamed women for having and enjoying casual sex. I remember actually having to keep a secret from my friends/social circle whenever I had a one night stand or something because I knew they would judge me for it. It was refreshing to find a community that didn’t. That being said, it pissed me off when, like with everything regarding the feminist movement, men tried to appropriate it to their advantage. They seemed to completely miss the point of the sex positive movement being about respecting women’s agency and would get mad when so-called hyper sexual women refused to sleep with them. I am aware of the other negative applications of the movement, as well, as pointed out in the video and the comments on here. It’s a nuanced topic.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Misappropriating something so easily and so thoroughly kinda proves the movement was a bit of a joke to begin with. Heck, you don't even need to be malicious to do so; I remember how everyone was partaking in it in college. Even the guys not partaking in it were poked fun at for being prudes. Idk if that's the case now, but it was quite pervasive and everyone seemingly jumped on the bandwagon.

[@abbeyb13]

I'm 34 and I was raised in purity culture during a lot of the popularization of hook-up culture. I felt a lot og guilt growing for being too prudish or not "pure" enough depending on who i was talking to. It's taken me a long time to figure out (and I'm still working on it) my relationship to sex. I was never comfortable with casual dating even though I wasn't planning on having sex until I got married. I had a lot of friends of both genders growing up. Most of my friends weren't binary or gender non-conforming because we didn't have words for it. This is a really long way of saying, I'm glad that the conversation is expanding past "have all the sex or else you aren't truly a liberated feminist." I'm also glad that we are working towards holding men accountable without having to hate them. I'm heterosexual and really love guys (my husband specifically lol) and I like being able to have conversations about what their responsibility is rather than writing them off or infantalizing them. I really appreciate your videos and hearing your thoughts and perspectives. Thank you for speaking out.

[@paulomalley3211]

I feel like gen z’s teen development we’ve stopped looking at sex as something that is shameful so i think we’re moving away from that more from the aspect of something we already know and now we’re moving on with other problems with sexism and the inherent psychology of it

[@ichoosemysanity6467]

Young people in today's world move at the speed of light.

[@thegreatdream8427]

I'd love to see you research and do a video on the toxicity of gay male culture. It's pretty far from your purview, of course, but you're, you know, *sane* , and could do the issue some justice. As a gay man, I think the sex positivity *we've* got borders on the pathological - it's basically the worst excesses of patriarchy's objectification of women, but turned onto other men. From what I've seen, a huge proportion of socialized gays (that is, those who have actually interacted enough with other gays as to be properly indoctrinated into the culture) are fetish-laden, hypersexual, self-hating, lonely, alienated, promiscuous, and constantly gradually sliding into the void. There's not a lot of humanity and mutual respect in gay culture, and masculinity has been turned into just a symbol of lust with no inner meaning. It's all rather horrifying and depressing. And I feel like an outside perspective on that from someone who is good at this sort of thinking and research and communication might be interesting.

[@InterIdoru]

Sadly, I feel some of the sex positive movement made it seem that if you are a person that does prefer to have sex within a relationship, you prefer to "very like" or love the partner, that it means you are repressed or oppressed. SEx positivity should be that if you want to have casual affairs, alright. No shame. If you want to keep it within loving relationships, alright. That's also a good choice.

[@georgia2954]

One thing that I’ve found particularly disturbing about the sex-positive movement is people’s inability or unwillingness to examine their sexual preferences and how they could relate to certain unconscious biases. I consider myself a generally kink-positive person, but there’s definitely a difference between a marginalized group of people, especially one who’s been historically seen as inherently sexual, reclaiming and celebrating their sexuality, and people outside of said group taking advantage of that to satisfy their curiosity and desires. It’s why I, as a trans woman, have sworn off dating cis men. I had someone genuinely ask me why there’s a difference between fetishizing trans women and “fetishizing” (read: finding attractive) people who wear glasses, and when I tried to explain that fetishization requires stereotyping and dehumanization, they straight up asked me why that’s a bad thing. In discussions of trans women and sexuality, I am continually blown away by the apparent fact that there are people who actually don’t understand the difference between finding a physical characteristic attractive and wanting to view an entire social class under patriarchy as sexual objects for their consumption. Under sex positivity, cis men who want to view trans women as, like, “the fruit of temptation” or whatever - the duplicitous woman who tempts straight men into homosexual relations, to be hated as much as we are lusted after... They don’t have to reevaluate their preconceptions about us. All that matters is pursuing your sexual desires with a sense of liberation, it doesn’t matter where these desires come from or how they may lead you to treat the objects of said desire. When “sexual preference” means painting an entire demographic with broad strokes (e.g. assuming that every sexual encounter with a trans women will be exactly like the fantasies you’ve conjured based on stereotypes about us), a line needs to be drawn.

[@annaalessandrini9965]

I’m a woman and I ma not really sexual, i don’t like masturbating and I’ve tried several time, it isn’t my thing. Every time I try to share my experience I am invalidated and shame for being either a liar, a prude or not “feminist enough”

[@rochellerodriguez6431]

I think one of the main issues with sex positive feminism in the 2010's was the fact that we didn't bring more attention to the feminine gaze. I think leaving what our own desires were out of the conversation led to this "cool girl" sexpositive femnisnim which was still a performance to either act like a stereotypical idea of a man in intimate relationships or gain male approval. I actually like the "men written by women" trend because it centers what women's (and other non men who are attracted to men) desires are.

[@six-footant1577]

You're 100% right that we're seesawing back into sex negativity and tbh I'm not a fan. Whatever the position of the feminist sex positive-negative pendulum it somehow comes back to putting the blame on women for their own oppression again. The problem is and has always been men treating women like garbage, yet we spend so much time talking about whether it's good or bad for us women to have sex and what kind of sex is good for us to have. Meanwhile most men have not spared a single thought for this discourse (whichever way it turns) and are just riding the wave. The focus should be turned on them, the oppressor, and we should stop pretending that things women do, whether its having lots of sex or no sex, cause men to be worse. We don't cause it, it's never been us. Men are misogynists when we're in burkas and they're misogynists when we're in thongs. As you said, we honestly just need to continue hammering that men need to be better, both at not objectifying women and at caring about women's sexual pleasure. Both of those fall under the umbrella of 'seeing women as people'. That's something that is gradually improving, but women writing witty medium articles about how other women are sluts isn't addressing men. Neither is women telling other women to bang more.

[@watchyamouth22]

She needs to pin this comment!

[@astrohaute]

Couldn’t agree more with this comment!!!

[@iantaakalla8180]

It is basically clear that sex-positivity is basically the most succinct wording of the swinging towards “women are libertine” on that pendulum between thinking women are prudes and that women are too horny, so I wonder why people did not notice this trend earlier? I guess it must have been because it looked like the exact opposite of culture before and therefore looked more “helpful to women”, and the trend itself initially did say to explore sex at your own pace.

[@nodmyhead6198]

This is it, especially the prolification of p0rn. While I dunno if I completely agree with women having no say in what happened, the onus is considerably on men and like you so perfectly worded it, their refusal to see us as human beings. That's what it comes down to.

[@dirt1688]

It's easy to blame men on paper, and ultimately patriarchy does empower men and oppress women, but the reality is that both women and men en masse reinforce societal misogyny. What does changing the focus of blame on men even look like in real life? As much as it sucks, if we as women don't actually address how we are reinforcing and perpetuating patriarchy, change will never occur. We cannot simply tell our oppressors to stop and expect them to stop. We cannot speak of equality and then voluntarily sleep with people who so clearly view us as objects.

[@willschneider4616]

This one's complicated. I appreciate it when women give (cis straight) men the "be better" kind of communication, because it's about being honest and pointing out a deficit most men haven't been socially conditioned to think about, but ultimately the work probably should be more done by men. And that's a problem because it's like step 4 or 5. We're still working on step 1 or 2. I wasn't raised to be deeply in touch with my entire emotional spectrum, to accept what I'm feeling and to think it wonderful and valid. I was raised to have two emotions, anger and apathy, overrepresented, and every other emotion squelched and denied until a big part of my emotional health and wellbeing was starved to atrophy. This is step 1: doing the internal work to recognize that within a patriarchal hegemony men are conditioned to ignore, suppress, or change any feelings which could be read as vulnerable. Every man should find a way to get back to their feelings, because the way we're conditioned separates us from them (personally, I found music to be really helpful in reconnecting to emotions which I'd allowed to atrophy). When we might feel sad or hurt or shame or fear, we're conditioned to manifest as anger... but also vulnerable feelings like trust, connection, and appreciation don't know what to do with themselves. So they atrophy. Or they all get pointed into sex, because sex is one of the only intimate things men are told they can do. This is probably a big part of why so many men are sex-starved, as it's actually just being starved for connection, which brings us to step 2. Step 2 is, having started work on step 1, starting to connect with other (cis straight) men and their whole emotional spectrum. I heard this great joke a while back: "Nobody talks about Jesus' miracle of having 12 close friends in his 30s." The joke here is based on this idea that it's really difficult especially for men to keep friends going into adulthood. Why? Because a lot of men's friendships are based on aggression, competition, utility, and very little else. This does not foster deep emotional connections which are rewarding and strong. Because a lot of men haven't done step 1, step 2 is completely out of the question because it kinda takes two men who have at least done some work on step 1 to start forming that deeper connection, so you can essentially learn the skill of being and making close friends. And this is without even going on to Step 3 which is platonic relationships with women, gay men, nb folks, etc. Speaking as someone who's tried really hard to get through steps 1 and 2, being friends with people who, within patriarchy, have been given permission to regularly access and experience emotions is kinda like a student talking to a professor. All of the work on emotional health I've done pales in comparison to the rich empathetic connection my women friends have with themselves and their other friends. They know their shit. "Be better" is maybe a bit too short of a summary of, "Do the extremely challenging work of reconnecting with your own entire emotional spectrum by overcoming internalized homophobia and misogyny, develop relationships with other men who have a connection to their emotional spectrum so you can develop the skills of empathy, level up to developing emotional connections to those who have decades more experience in empathy and self-connection, then practice that empathy with an intimate partner both through reading and doing the work to meet both their emotional and physical desires. Oh, and do all of that with no help from anyone, because nobody talks about this so there's no roadmap and no support." I'm DEFINITELY not asking women to fix this, and I'm not excusing patriarchy, but it's been my experience that these systems of rigid gender norms hurt absolutely everyone. It hurt me through the regular restriction of my emotions leading to stunted emotional and empathetic development (not to mention issues with anger, probably). I had very few close women friends until college, when I finally stopped only seeing women for sexual utility. I still find it difficult to form close relationships with other men. And it doesn't stop the fact that most cultures value men who restrict our emotions more than those express our emotions; when I express gratitude or I'm sentimental or offer sincere compliments or, somehow worst of all, admit a mistake or ask for help, I know this isn't coded as masculine and I know a segment of the population will see me as lesser for showing that kind of vulnerability. I mean, fuck those people, but also it's a reality. This is a big, difficult project.

[@morighani]

I wish i could save comments here on youtube! very much agree with this perspective. most people truly don’t realize how fucking deep this goes into men’s psyches. Even me, who knows better and has researched and thought about this issue for hours, sometimes struggle to “believe” that men actually have empathy? I know they do, I personally know men that do, but if it’s difficult sometimes even for me to have faith then I imagine it is nigh impossible for those who don’t have the education. which is most of the population (outside the internet). This especially goes for men themselves. It’s just much easier to hate on men than to admit that you don’t actually hate THEM, you hate the self defeating behaviors drilled into them by patriarchy because they are the most visible, tangible, and obvious manifestation of this facet of society. any abuse survivor knows how difficult it is to deal with and heal from trauma. How much it messes with your life. And I see this as no different. Men are utterly riddled with trauma. From the disregarding of childhood abuse, stigmatization of sexual and domestic abuse, extreme pressure to perform, pressure to “succeed”, ridicule of vulnerability, and all this laced up in a little bow with a cherry on top while you’re told by society that you are the “winning” side. but I don’t think it ever feels like winning. and that’s when men will divert to oppressing and abusing women, children, and whoever else. to claim the inkling of power they’re supposed to have but never truly did. There shouldn’t be any excuses for disgusting behavior, clearly. There just needs to be something better than just pointing out the problem. The goal shouldn’t be to rise above or get revenge, it should be to heal. and that’s really hard. everyone needs to be liberated. unfortunately that’s too much of a sophisticated take for most to wrap their heads around. but i trust we’ll get there in time. more men will wake up and start claiming the life they actually had stolen from them. Not a life full of sex money and power. A life of peace and real, inner confidence and contentment.

[@RuanMei_SocietyGenius]

I hate I can't save your comment as the first lady pointed. An emotional intelligence man is much important and more valuable than stoic and boring man.Let me say: you are impressive, admire your resilience to told and admit that you did it.

[@RuanMei_SocietyGenius]

Also, I have a question to you? I don't know if you will read these comments but I'll be waiting.

[@aquamarine13yt]

I find a lot of the extremism with sex positivity (like what you were mentioning with hook up culture for example) has made me as an asexual sex repulsed person feel very alienated. Of course, womens bodies deserve respect, I’m all for that I’m a girl afterall its not about that, but with a lot of sex positivity sounding like sex needs to be a part of a relationship and valuing ppl on solely their bodies and how they can be used makes me feel less human, and I’m glad as an ace person I haven’t felt it very often. I believe sex neutrality is the most healthy way to go about it, clear respect, and at the same time normalizing sexless relationships instead of making those out to be unloving and taboo. I did my final 12th grade sociology project on that idea, and I know many people may attack what I said with words of “abstinence” but this isn’t about being able to choose if we want sex or not based on religion. I know this is wordy and I’m trying to be careful with my words, because sometimes I have days where I am completely sex repulsed and think it’s disgusting and that more extreme side, and other days where I am not and more chill about it. I hope you get what I mean

[@AB-sm1qf]

No you’re not wrong. I have the same feelings.

[@GR-gk5xs]

I agree. I don’t think I’m asexual but I have dealt with crippling social anxiety my whole life that has prevented me from being intimate with anyone. Especially as a teenager, having my friends make most of their conversations about the sex they were having, and having TV shows make it seem like every single teenager was having sex made me feel very isolated. I think that sex neutrality is an attitude that many people would benefit from adopting

[@aquamarine13yt]

@@GR-gk5xs I’d say asexuality is more about not feeling attracted to people sexually instead of avoiding sex at all, since some people do it for pleasing their partners who aren’t ace but I completely agree with you.

[@brendabillion]

Literally me

[@jackiej8615]

I'm also aspec and I know exactly what you mean

[@SpitGoblin]

this was a great video! i get very disappointed in the seggs positivity movement especially with my fellow gen z! it went from this beautiful powerful movement to downright selling our bodies (like the celebrities do) for a profit!! in my opinion that's not seggs positive! i am in no way shaming seggs workers, but it quickly went from something liberating to something darker. i might not be wording this the right way so im sorry if i offend anyone. it's just very ugly for the younger women/teens. a lot of younger girls are mixing up female liberation with wanting approval from the male gaze. i may be speaking from my own experience but that is just one aspect of how i saw this movement slowly turn into something different..

[@EC-yw5hg]

I’m not anti sex worker but I am anti sex work. And strongly advise against casual sex. It is too costly for us and honestly, not even remotely necessary for a full satisfying life. People are too addicted to quick and greasy dopamine hits in a modern time oversaturated by entertainment.

[@Em-jc7ct]

@@EC-yw5hg sex in in anyway (casual, work, in relationships, etc) are fine and can be great as long as you are respecting everyone involved including yourself

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

@@Em-jc7ct You're disregarding some of the seriously dark sides of industrialized sex in favor of candyfloss idealism, which does zero favors for the women who end up traumatized from engaging with it through force, coercion, or naivete.

[@ichoosemysanity6467]

Don't feel the need to be political correct. Call out the facts. Being a sex worker isn't the life to live.

[@pceluvNdorkyness]

I'm 29 A demisexual ( so my bias is known lol) & I'm definitely over the hypersexual era The sex positive movement started with more nuance & substance ( ex: consent, self acceptance, boundaries, pleasure etc) But it's NOW a caricature of itself It's become far TOO performative & commercialized Ppl use it as a facade & ironically exploit themselves Just because we find ways to label ourselves, doesn't mean we have to make it everything we are These labels shouldn't own us.... I love Megan & all the others favs ...but I find this sex positive/ bad bitch aesthetic boring, reductive + cringe ...just my two cents 💜 Thanks Khadija for this discussion 💜

[@roxannelilymaria2581]

Thanks for your personal insight

[@Chachixo]

I love the line about labels not owning us - very this! Mina Le just put out a video today that kind of goes along with this line of thought. Liking something, doing something, having something or being a part of a community is not a personality - it's not all that you are.

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

Nothing is cringe.

[@santyvalens]

Some great points made here, thank you for putting into words the views I've struggled to word for others

[@EC-yw5hg]

I am not demisexual, I am attracted to people I don’t know, based on their looks. However, who in their right mind would let a literal stranger see them NAKED and touch them… no, just no. Why would you put that much trust in a person you don’t even know?

[@KatPadmore]

I'm so late to this vid, but this is a fascinating aspect of postfeminist thought. The idea of sexual empowerment is used to create individual feminist liberations as well as being a "sign" that feminism is no longer needed (i.e. "we fixed the gender pay gap, it's not a thing" comments). While women are so right to empower themselves in their sexualisation, the commodification of those values to get those clicks, shares, sales etc is so damaging to feminist critiques of society

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Khadija, thank you for your videos! They’re always so cool and interesting. Stay awesome!

[@evBeef]

Ahhhh thank you!!!! Me and a few friends have been talking about this for AGES and talking about about how this culture (and pron..) really harmed us! And yes it's because women got 'liberated' - liberated to do exactly what men want, but not genuinely find our true sexuality! We put in all the time becoming ready for casual , unsatisfying encounters and acting 'cool' about it for men, men didn't change at all for us! And this culture has even harmed but relationships with women too :( ANYWAY thank you so much for bringing this discussion to a bigger audience!!

[@marshmallowbaby6473]

The hyper sex positive aspect of feminism at that time (when I was a teenager) is what really started to draw me towards feminism and identifying as a feminist because of how sexually active I was and how heavily shamed I was for it. I think at the time it was so cathartic and that’s why the pendulum swung so so hard but this was a really interesting video thank you

[@whatwoah7547]

As a man I think a big part of this convo is also how much weird moralizing happens on our end around men’s sexuality and how us being left out of these convos with women has left us behind even further. In a hegemonic masculine view If you’re not having a lot of sex you’re not man enough. If you’re not dominant in bed you’re not man enough. You’re expected to always want sex all the time or you’re not man enough. If you’re not meeting all of these various standards you’re “not a man” and with that, to a lot of men they see sex positivity and feminism telling them to be the exact opposite of what they’ve been told to be their whole life. While I disagree with the perception I can’t help but acknowledge it as a real worldview and frame of reference for these men and plenty men I know in my own life. (It also doesn’t help that a lot of women will hold men to the same hegemonic masculine standards but that’s another conversation) All in all I’m also curious what bringing men into the fold will look like. I had the benefit of being almost exclusively raised around women and having a lot of women friends growing up and in my circles so I kinda had a cheat code I guess? But to a man who was raised very differently from me how does he appreciate these ideas that are so foreign to him? Especially when I had to grapple with (and am still grappling with lol) my own understandings of masculinity in an environment of mostly women and it by no means was/is a cakewalk All in all dope video 10/10 I’ve been a subscriber for a few months and I always learn something new and I appreciate that you approach these topics so casually 🙏🏿

[@paulgastelum2143]

im glad to find this comment as i was thinking the exact same thing, also really related to you as a cis man whos grown up with mostly women around me. I was wondering how old are you? and what do you still struggle with in terms of dealing with the idea of masculinity and how it should/shouldnt be done?

[@whatwoah7547]

@@paulgastelum2143 I’m 24 so like an older Gen Z I guess lol. Frfr in my experience it required a lot of shuffling and figuring out what parts of traditional masculinity I liked and I felt were also serving me and the people around me. My father has been sort of in and out of my life due to his own demons so not having that consistent patriarchal presence kinda put me in the weeds but also gave me a lot of freedom to kinda figure shit out without any real pressures in the home to “be a man” or anything like that. And when he became a more consistent presence in my life he never attempted to try to mold me to be a certain type of man which is something I’ve always appreciated. I will say I did kinda have the benefit of naturally having some hyper masculine traits (deep voice, naturally very muscular, big beard) so there’s a part of it that I just naturally couldn’t help but I’ve never really been afraid to express more “feminine” parts of myself cause that kind of “feminine energy” for lack of a better term was always present around me. I think the one thing I’m still grappling with is that I present very masculine, I am cis, I am straight etc. etc. but I’ve never really felt any real attachment to the idea of “manhood”. Like I’ll do manly things but I’ve never really felt super threatened by anything emasculating and the idea of “being a man” isn’t really ever on my mind ever. But I have “played the role” so to speak for social reasons or to keep up appearances lol

[@gregvs.theworld451]

I too would love to know what including us men in this conversation looks like. As I said in a different thread, the vibe I get from Khadija's video is that it's mostly for the women, and he comments seem to indicate for me this discussion is for the women, men need not give their thoughts below. That's not to say I disliked the video, truthfully I need to get back up there and finish it but so far I find it enlightening and I hope to learn some things or gain a new perspective to consider, but these comments feel like it's not a place for men to grow or discuss.

[@strawberryinsomnia9188]

​@@gregvs.theworld451 Men should create their own spaces, and I mean that genuinely, not as a snarky comeback. When people think of men's spaces, it's often something incredibly toxic, like MGTOW or incel forums, and it's on men to develop positive places for growth and healthy discussion the way women have. I completely understand the desire to be included, and it always sucks to feel unwelcome, but women NEED some things that are exclusive to us and men, despite their best efforts, really do change the conversation-especially when it becomes centered around you (even if it's positive, like what you can do to help). There's this sense of feeling entitled to the work women have put in to spark and engage in some of these discussions in a productive way, and while I'm sure it's not intentional it really speaks to the need for healthy places for men to have these conversations amongst themselves too.

[@madelaineraye]

I would just really love if men had educated and informed conversations about feminism with other men. I don’t get the impression that many men start talking about women’s rights, unless women are around. It seems many men are hesitant to call their friends out when said friends treat women poorly. One of my big asks for men is to start calling each other out on their poor (and sometimes dangerous) behavior.

[@karenwood2928]

Marital rape wasn't technically illegal in all US states until 1993, but exemptions to the law make it legal in many states. The exemptions allow for statutory rape in marriage, and, even more disturbingly, allow for rape if one of the victims is incapacitated - even if drugged by their spouse! Several states still require use of a weapon or extreme force for it to count as rape. It's all pretty bleak and enraging.

[@karenwood2928]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Yep. And da bois can be r@ped while drunk and most countries won't consider it as such. Some things seem slow to change.

[@bryna7]

The sex positive movement has been more harmful than anything else.

[@kayboy6055]

16:15 - 16:30 is so important because I feel like, again, instead of holding men severely accountable for sexual violence against women, we're just turning around and being like " don't be sexy if you're poor because that'll make you a target, which is unfair, but your fault (?)"

[@Gallant_Silver]

Khadija cuddling a kitten was all I needed to see. My day is complete now.

[@sarahfourcassier2629]

Great video! As a mid-twenty french enby, I have seen a few discourses online about the "bad consequences" of Segpo (lack of accountability hypersexualisation of younger fem presenting people etc) but to me it felt more like how some (especially cishet men) only took what they wanted out of the movement. As I understood it, Segpo was about the rights (workers' rights of segs workers), the importance of knowledge (safer and consensual) vs purity culture (demonization of everything related to seg outside of reproduction)

[@DrAnarchy69]

For me sex positivity includes not only enthusiastic consent, but consent that recognizes the humanity of others. You can have as much sex as you want with as many people as you want and still recognize your partner(s) as Human.

[@GrungeGalactica]

Last year fresh out of a horrendous lockdown break up, I did have a few good, honest fwb relationships. For the most part it was a fun chill time. But now I look back in anger & frustration (mostly at myself) for letting those supposed friends twist my arm about not wearing protection I provided. I luckily escaped that phase without getting an sti/d or un wanted pregnancy (thank God). but rn I’m working on building my strength of character mental health so that that never happens again. It makes me so mad that sooo many men I’ve come across are so quick to take off/reject the use of protection for both of us, just so it feels a bit better for them. Utter bs. Especially when simultaneously they showed such a lack of regard/effort for my pleasure 😤 anyways just wanted to vent and see if anyone else can unfortunately relate? In the meantime being happily single and celibate rn is really working for me, I get my O’s exactly how I want them, without ever feeling degraded😊

[@griffinc466]

Really good to hear you talk about how it's important to recognize each others' humanity in sex, and how it's just as possible and just as important to do that in casual encounters as it is in more serious ones!

[@droppingjewels13]

great video. Just got to the part where you're speaking about wanting to be seen for more than your body and I feel you 100% with that internal struggle!!

[@juratory8876]

I'm suuuuuuper late, but I really like everyone's comments and views on sex-positive feminism and where we go from here. I do want to point out how mainstream sex-positive femininity doesn't cover topics such as hypersexuality as a response to sexual trauma. As someone who was sexualky abused in my childhood and used hypersexuality as a coping mechanism, I really wish we could talk more about this topic in relation to SPF.

[@MG-mh8xp]

as a gen z, a lot of things you said felt alien to me. I never saw or heard of sex positivity as a way to reclaim power over men, I mostly heard sex positivity as actually learning about sex, and being healthy about it. maybe that's why you feel it's not common anymore? because it's not as aggressive and out there and signal boosted, it's more just a vague attitude of health and knowledge.

[@hoteltoyota]

As someone who grew up learning about sex from sex-positive sex educators, I'd have to disagree on the characterization of sex positivity in this video. I completely agree that the girl-bossification of sex was not good and has caused a lot of problems, but that's not what the sex positive movement is abou, or at least the part of the movement I have been a part of since middle-school (~2012). To me, sex positivity is acknowledging that sex is a normal part of life that should be able to be discussed without shame and that sex is not a shameful thing. That there's no shame in our bodies and in knowing the proper words for their parts. Pushing for comprehensive education about sex and consent. And just everything related to liberating people from the shame and ignorance that has shrouded sex historically. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with the overall point of your video, but disagree that what you are criticizing is sex positivity. I don't know what word would better describe what you are talking about, but I don't think sex positive feminism is what you are talking about in this video. (PS: I love your content/videos, I just take problem with this specifically)

[@ryn2844]

Ah man I am so ready for re-examining this on a societal basis. As a repulsed ace I've gotten f*cked over by this sh!t SO much. My dudes, I am not conservative, prudish, unliberated, small-minded, caged, shame-filled just for not wanting to personally participate! Anyways I recommend 'a little to the left' video series re-examining s3x-positivity from a decidedly leftist perspective. Very good stuff. (I haven't gotten through the full video yet, will watch in full when I get back home.)