Are your hookups leaving you feeling lonely? Ellen Fisher vs Mattie Jo Cowsert

[@bridgetteeilert1566]

Mattie’s perspective is what happens when you base your theology around your feelings & life experiences. Praise God that He is bigger than my own feelings/desires/impulses/lenses.

[@Jamhael1]

Only a person so ARROGANT can come in public and claim "I know what god think".

[@dallas41891]

Ellen was so much more convincing in this... I think the other girl is extremely biased and reacting out of extreme hurts. Sex is sacred and marriage is sacred.

[@makeupobsessed3423]

100%

[@fairweatherannie]

I agree.

[@UknowAcow]

Ellen is also biased in her own experience. She literally can’t speak from the other side of not waiting or not being married. I think it would have been interesting to have a third party in the mix - a woman who waited until marriage - then divorced and navigating her sexuality outside of that. Remember this is all nuanced to each persons lived experience. I didnt get the sense Mattie Jo, the other girl (use names), was speaking out of deep hurt, but her lived experience.

[@kathleens7679]

@@UknowAcowthat’s how I saw it too. Ellen is the more biased one because things “worked out” for her so well. She found a partner very young and had the time to develop a strong loving bond before marriage and sex because they were literally children when they met. That’s beautiful and something to be proud of, but it’s not going to happen for everyone.

[@NiaLaLa_V]

I started having sex as a teenager and I agree with all of you who waited for marriage. My mom and dad did that, and they are about to celebrate 50 years. I should have listened to them. I am lucky enough to have found marriage still, but I wrecked my life first.

[@SomeHippieDietitian]

There is an assumption that if you only have sex with your spouse, you just don’t know what you are missing out on. But isn’t it fair to also ask, is the person with many partners missing out on the experience offered in a healthy, committed, lifelong relationship?

[@katecarpe1665]

I’m not sure that I feel strongly about either side of the coin. BUT in response to those who say you just don’t know what you are missing if you haven’t had experience sexually with other partners - you are missing out on a lot of risks (STDS or pregnancies that you aren’t ready for). ALSO I know some people talk about having to readjust with the person they married when maybe past sexual experiences felt better/ easier etc. So if you are waiting for marriage, you won’t be accidentally comparing your partner to past partners in a way you wouldn’t want to..

[@Andrethealchemist999]

I think that’s totally fair to ask and totally true. If I could go back and only have sex with my wife my entire life then I would certainly do that. It’s obviously far more sacred and special if that was the case . Promiscuity is very intact I’ve and that’s actually what’s being sold to us.

[@laurfred2742]

My stance on this is that you have all the time in the world to explore with your spouse and really learn how to enjoy each other. And it evolves over time, getting better and better.

[@NiaLaLa_V]

My first boyfriend was supposed to be a virgin too, he lied. What you are missing out on is heartbreak that you weren't old enough to deal with on a level that you had to live with for the rest of your life because he had an incurable STD.

[@saltandsriracha]

​@Andrethealchemist999 agree with you, if I could go back and only have sex with my husband I would. Those other partners were a waste of time. I'd have had more fun just dating without the sex. You don't need sexual experiences prior to your spouse. The only sex that matters is with your spouse.

[@MamaSchopfer-vy4km]

My husband and I have both only been with one another within our marriage. We have ZERO issues with our sex life, and even after 22 years of marriage, it has not slowed down; it continues getting even better!!!! No baggage, no fear of comparison, no thought of STDs!!!

[@MamaSchopfer-vy4km]

I wanted to add that for the past 20 years, my husband and I have lived off his income alone. We have four kids, all of whom I have homeschooled. We live below our means, don’t go into debt (our only debt is our mortgage), and we are NOT rich. My husband is in law enforcement. If it’s a priority, you CAN make it work.

[@amysho2192]

If a husband only makes $20k per year and rent is above that, it might be impossible. 😢​@@MamaSchopfer-vy4km

[@KylieSavane]

@@MamaSchopfer-vy4km really nice anecdotal notes, law enforcement has great salary though not rich NOT POOR, happy for your family, thank you for sharing.

[@MamaSchopfer-vy4km]

@@KylieSavane When my husband began his career in law enforcement, he made $13/hr….. Nothing about my comments is “anecdotal”. Have a great day!

[@NiaLaLa_V]

@@MamaSchopfer-vy4km Yes it is hun, anecdotal means personal experience. That's not a dirty word, she wasn't insulting you.

[@Ninglor888]

This is the future of podcasting: bringing together opposing views and having a respectful and open-minded conversation about them❤

[@Nadine9ymp]

Especially the respectful part. I love this!! ❤❤ Finally a conversation without people playing the victim card

[@NiaLaLa_V]

@@Nadine9ymp We've had this in our house for almost 30 years. Board game night with belief discussions. A tradition my older cousin taught me and I adopted too.

[@kirk.w.mclaren]

Its great!

[@kylelougnot]

Put it all out there with honesty and let people make the choice right for them.

[@ellenenassar1459]

My opinion is that this society is too addicted to sex.

[@lucianas4919]

Agree

[@ChristConvicted]

Agggrreeee!!

[@christaparham]

I agree. Everything is overly sexualized nowadays and we’ve become numb to it.

[@cassidyberry1608]

Everyone is lobotomized by their libido.

[@mytreasuredcreations]

Yes! Sex has become an idol, just like romance and beauty.

[@lexierhea8920]

I will never understand the viewpoint that sex is not sacred. The way I see it, and have always seen it, is that sex is the closest you can physically be to another human being. I just can't imagine how anyone can be casual about that. I really appreciate this conversation, but so far I've only agreed with Ellen's points lol.

[@Jamhael1]

That is because sex is just part of life - there is nothing "special" about it.

[@nicolekoranki8170]

I didn't wait until marriage to have sex, and I could feel God tugging on my heart every time to stop. After many years of disobedience, and thankfully, with no transmitted sexual diseases or pregnancies, I committed myself to celibacy. I met my now husband, and we waited to have sex until we were married; it was more special than I ever could have imagined, not because it was the "most amazing sex" (that takes time to build with someone regardless), but because we honored ourselves and the sanctity of our marriage the way God intends it to be. Looking back, I wish I had waited, and I'm glad I changed the course of my actions when I did.

[@carolinborbolla2071]

A lot of the anecdotes Mattie shared just reaffirmed my belief that you need to wait until marriage.

[@valepaucat]

Ellen, thank you for standing up for the biblical perspective on marriage and sexuality. As a single woman in my early 30s who wants to honor God and my body, this is incredibly encouraging. Examples like yours truly highlight the beauty and goodness of God’s design for human sexuality and show that intimacy is something a couple has to build overtime. It’s unfortunate that purity culture has distorted so much of how we navigate this topic. I find Maddie’s alternatives unconvincing, especially in a world that increasingly elevates instant pleasure as the highest value in relationships and fosters a super individualistic culture.

[@amysho2192]

Biblical perspective? Didn't most of the patriarchs have more than 1 wife or sexual partner? Jacob, Esau, and Abraham did. So did Moses, Gideon, Caleb and Saul. King David, Solomon, Judah, and Samson did as well. But I guess your just referring to the New Testament part of the Bible when the Jewish people were living under Roman rule and were influenced by Greco-Roman culture, which largely practiced monogamy. In the Roman Empire, monogamy was the societal norm and was expected in most marriages. This cultural environment may have encouraged early Christians to adopt and promote monogamy as a social standard. Times are always changing it seems. Culture influences so much! You can see that today as well.

[@valepaucat]

​@@amysho2192While the Bible certainly describes many polygamous situations, it never portrays them in a positive light. Instead, it prescribes the covenant of marriage as between one man and one woman. This video might help clarify things if you want to understand how to interpret polygamy in the Bible. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioiTq4yghbqFpa8

[@amysho2192]

@valepaucat What was ever said negatively of polygamy in the Old Testament? I don't think I ever heard of anything negative about these main men of God having more than 1 partner. I will go check out the video.

[@solagratialife]

​@@valepaucatBINGO!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@ChopChic1]

I waited till my wedding night to lose my virginity and I am so happy I made that choice. My husband has the utmost respect for me because I valued myself enough to say "I'm worth the wait". We will celebrate our 14th anniversary soon and I can tell you that God has blessed us beyond our wildest dreams. There is sacrifice in doing things God's ways, but it is so worth it in the end. Also, I want to correct one statistic she gave when she said "50% of marriages end in divorce" that data is skewed because it includes divorces from people that have been divorced multiple times. If you look at Christian couples, that percentage is much lower.

[@naomia24]

I really appreciate this podcast because it takes me out of my echo chamber of podcasts I usually stick too. Ellen, you offer a safe platform for people to discuss both sides of many controversial topics. Love to see it!

[@brianhollon178]

This lady totally lost me when she said “sometimes it’s alright to cheat”

[@tiffdeshtray]

I think half of the people in the comments are missing the point. You can have a totally different experience without invalidating the experience of the other person. Saying she needs to stop reading Teen Vogue, she needs to heal, pornography did this to her, etc. is wild. Her book is a memoir. She’s sharing what she’s learned from her experiences and studies. These women are able to have a polite conversation about their upbringings and different experiences without invalidating each other. Why can some of you in the comment section not do the same?

[@s.t2240]

But don't you think that she's also invalidating peoples experience with Christianity? By saying Christianity is extremely manipulative and that none of it is true?

[@UknowAcow]

⁠@@s.t2240she is not invalidating those that are Christians- she is sharing her lived experience within an unhealthy teaching of purity culture. If you read her memoir or listen to some of the other podcasts she has done - she speaks highly of how hard it is to break down a faith that is so much of one’s identity - but keeping the pieces that are true and sacred and right. Remembered this is just one conversation and piece of someone’s story. It was enlightening to hear someone who grew up in Orange County vs someone in the Midwest. Experiences with Christianity can differ regionally.

[@tiffdeshtray]

@@s.t2240 I am a Christian and I don’t feel invalidated by her experience at all. This episode proves that people can have a different experience within the same religion. The Christian environment she was raised in is different than Ellen’s. She said at the beginning that not everyone has the same religious experience. Hers was rooted in misogyny, shame, fire & brimstone sermons, and patriarchal politics. She shared her findings in her healing journey.

[@Droppin_up_productions]

Someone is right and someone is wrong. The guest is wrong and coping hard.

[@tiffdeshtray]

@ okay, so then it makes sense for me to tell you that you’re entitled to your *wrong opinion.

[@Lore.marrie]

My opinion as a 30-year-old, single, non-Christian woman who has had casual sex with a boyfriend. And who currently has a completely different view. I agree that the pressure within churches to treat sex in a legalistic way, using marriage as a way to legalize sex, is wrong and will bring frustration. No one is pure because they didn't have sex or impure because they did. It's not the end of the world to have had sex before marriage, it's not the end of the world to have given yourself to your asshole boyfriend and that you shouldn't get married because of that. But today I am fully convinced that sex should be reserved for within marriage. I also don't believe that simply waiting to have sex until marriage is a guarantee of a successful marriage, but it helps a lot and prevents a lot of damage within the marriage. Casual sex only benefits men and brings frustration to women. I know that some people will say that there's no harm in having sex while dating, when you're in love, etc. Women, know what you want out of life. If you want to get married and have children, a family, etc., don't have a relationship with an active sex life. My experience observing these relationships is that they are usually based on sex; they say they are boyfriends because they have regular sex. I know that women think they are super in love, etc., but for men it's not the same. I knew a woman who lived with a guy for a few months and considered him her husband and that they had something intense, magical, etc., while for him, she had been a girlfriend without much importance. Usually this type of couple "lets life take them". They start by having sex, then suddenly they are living together, sometimes an unplanned baby comes along, etc. They haven't made a decision, nor have they made any commitments; they are simply "letting life take them". Whether they stay together or not depends on what is easier; if staying together is easy, the relationship will last for years, if not, at the first obstacle they will break up. They are together but have not made any commitments. Even when these couples get married in a traditional way, the marriage only lasts a few years, because for them marriage is an experience, a phase, and they don't have a long-term vision for these relationships. That's why it's so common to see many people being married 3 or 4 times. I believe that at this time when it's so common for men to badmouth women and women to badmouth men, it's clear that we could avoid some frustrations in life by being more selective about who we let into our lives. In addition to carrying baggage from past, bad relationships into marriage. I look back and realize that I could have avoided so many things. Nowadays, I don't see any point in getting involved with someone who won't make any connections, just to see what happens. Men and women see sex differently, and no matter how much feminists say, we women connect with men during sex. We feel humiliated by casual sex, even when the man hasn't promised us anything. In fact, most men nowadays don't promise anything. Even when we don't like them or want anything serious with them, we still feel humiliated when we realize that for them it's just sex. The woman in the video said that sex was used as a mechanism of social power, etc. Look, the left is the one who uses sex as a mechanism of power. If she studied a little sociology, she would see that sex in all cultures has always been related to mutual care and stability for raising children. Even in polygamous societies, sex is about commitment, aka marriage. The wedding party is just a rite of passage and legal marriage is necessary as society evolves in laws. But marriage existed in the same way before the law. Anyone who is Christian will understand that marriage already existed before the law of Moses. This is because marriages are healthier for society. Sexual immorality has also always existed, but it was never unacceptable, it was always something separate. Even the issue of homosexuals in Greece, you can be sure that it is nothing like what they tell you. Infidelity by women has always been a major issue, because a woman who has had relationships with several men has no way of knowing who the father of her baby is. And the man in a marriage is always the provider and protector; he will not take responsibility for other people's children. It is very common today to see women who have no idea who the father of their child is. Luckily, DNA exists. One of my biggest problems with feminism is the sexual issue.

[@Apl2149]

I think that Maddie’s view is very detrimental to women. I agree when Ellen says that the purity culture and teachings itself was not wrong, it was the delivery of it in some cases.

[@hannahm8120]

I think it’s clear that Maddie is broken and has strayed from God, no matter what she calls herself or how she puts it. I hope this debate helped her get a glimpse of the truth.

[@remil393]

@@hannahm8120comments like yours are why Christians get a bad name. She is not “broken” simply because she has a different view on sexuality than you.

[@kailaleebabineau3962]

Waiting for marriage is not the same as purity culture. Purity culture has a lot of crazy teachings like not kissing until marriage, and courtship rather than dating.

[@nothanksmegan]

Many women (insecure or hurt women) think they will feel better and less guilt about their decisions if they get more women to behave or do what they did. Instead it just creates a lot of hurt & jaded women seeking comfort in the wrong places.

[@ninap1076]

Love this conversation. I've been married for 11 years now and have since returned to God. If there is one thing I could go back and do differently it would have been waiting until I met my now husband. Even before God came back into my life, I felt this regret. I am so grateful for the lord's forgiveness ❤❤

[@molly_frances]

You are not alone. I read the Bible for the first time in my 30s and came to Christ after so much hurt in regard to sex and relationships. Now I feel deep regret. And I think to have those negative experiences, makes seeing Gods design for marriage, as all the more understandable and beautiful.

[@jennifernyhof9907]

I was 28 and my husband was 30 when we met…neither of us were virgins but we both waited till marriage to be together. Absolutely no regrets! We were able to explore that part of our lives with the security and safety that we both needed. And over 10 yrs later and having gone through so many different seasons we are still the best of friends and that part of our lives is going strong and is very much fun!

[@jennyo82]

She’s clearly been through a lot of spiritual abuse etc…like a lot of us…and this is the danger of purity culture. I think she speaks from her pain, and experience, but we all do at times. I think it’s important to acknowledge the abuse that women have to deal with in the church. I grew up in the church (and purity culture), I was involved in ministry and long term missions, saved myself for marriage, and was with my husband for 20yrs, I was the trad wife, raising 4 babies and homeschooling….but behind closed doors there was a ton of abuse…I was told that I still didn’t have biblical grounds to leave despite the abuse…but I finally got the nerve to leave…and all I faced was criticism and judgement. My point in saying all of this, is that there’s a LOT of people in the church that have become collateral damage. And we need to acknowledge that. Not everyone has a bad experience in the church, but too many people in the church won’t acknowledge it and sometimes due to lack of experience, or their own misalignment in their biblical understanding. It’s not a simple cut and dry answer to these difficult questions.

[@KayMadison]

Yes! The trauma can be felt. Nice to see you also picked up on this.

[@VivaaLaaLyssaa]

Ellen, you are so graceful in your ability to converse with people. Especially when discussing opposing beliefs, this strength of yours truly shines. What a beautiful gift from God that you've been honing so well. I appreciate all of the points you made here and I so deeply admire your advocacy for critical thinking and your facilitation of open dialogue.

[@Rebeccasuperstar1]

I really resonate with Ellen's perspective on motherhood. Much of my life, to this day, feels like "What on earth am I gonna do as a career?" Is it a coincidence that female driven workforces include children and caretaking? Is being a mother and homemaker not an adequate choice? When my maternity leave was coming to an end, as my daughter turned one, I asked my mom friends how they coped with sending their child to daycare and nearly all said they get emotional every time and still struggle with it to this day... How is that acceptable!? When your whole being is saying "no" but society says "yes". Just my experience, of course that's not the feeling for everyone!

[@carissalamkahouan699]

Being a mother and a homemaker is a wonderful choice and more than adequate. It is the natural desire for the vast majority of women, I suspect.

[@starhealth2118]

We can debate this topic all day, but it comes down to whether we choose to follow God's design or not. God created us and designed sex and he knows what is best for us.

[@Melissadenyce]

I really appreciated this debate! I am in the middle on this one. I agree with so much both women said and I don't think there is one right answer for every person. I was one of those women who was harmed by purity culture. I have struggled my entire adult life to undo the sexual repression I went through in purity culture. I waited until marriage and wish that I would not have as it set me up to fail. I think the most important thing is to prioritize respect, consent, and safety.

[@samicarrion8916]

May I ask how it set you up to fail? How was the harm expressed in your relationship? I also feel hurt by purity culture. I have only been with the man i'm with now and after experiencing sex I started to realize how much repression I lived through, expressing itself as way too much jealousy in my case and shame around having lost years of my life to mental shackles. Considering my personality, I probably would not have slept with anyone either prior to my spouse but the mental slavery just kills the self and that is hard to revive.

[@Lore.marrie]

I think that if you saw the sexual issue as a legality, an obligation, of course it would only leave you frustrated. I see a lot of people who see marriage simply as a legality for sex, really, will be a failed marriage. I think it has to be something much deeper, meaning in life, and value that you give to yourself. I speak as someone who had casual sex, I lost my virginity to a boyfriend, who at the time I thought I loved (it was never love). The last time I had casual sex, I had a crying fit in the middle of sex, even though the man treated me well. How I regret it. And look, I'm not a Christian. You say you felt repressed. It was exactly the opposite for me. I agreed to do things in bed that I didn't like and didn't feel comfortable doing for fear of being called a prude. These men never pressured me or anything like that. But the mentality of the environment I lived in was that a woman should agree to do everything in bed, because otherwise she's a prude. That hurt me a lot.

[@Lore.marrie]

​@@samicarrion8916You say you felt repressed. It was exactly the opposite for me. I agreed to do things in bed that I didn't like and didn't feel comfortable doing for fear of being called a prude. These men never pressured me or anything like that. But the mentality of the environment I lived in was that a woman should agree to do everything in bed, because otherwise she's a prude. That hurt me a lot.

[@KylieSavane]

I was raped for my virginity and felt full shame from my christian background. I would have waited, i was taught i was worthless essentially for not waiting, although that was not my choice … Mattie and Ellen were both right in their perspective.

[@amysho2192]

Sorry that happened to you. And yes, they both can be right...right for their own experiences. Sex saved my life. I was suicidal because of health issues. I was 24 and a virgin. I didn't want to die a virgin so when this very good looking male model started flirting with me, I talked with him til it was obvious he wanted to get into my pants. I started to end the interaction, as I was so used to doing as a Christian. Then I realized...wait, why not? I don't want to die a virgin and I am already sinning by committing suicide so...I asked him to take my virginity and of course he agreed. After we had sex I felt SO alive and happy. Didn't want to die anymore! My health issues started to improve that night also. It was awesome.

[@hannseven]

"Why is Chlamydia different to flu ???" 😂 I thought that was common sense

[@Sportyspice7]

Well in all honesty, she has a good point, it’s just another disease that affects a different part of the body, but isn’t necessarily life-threatening

[@mytreasuredcreations]

​@@Sportyspice7it can lead to birth defects if the woman gets pregnant.

[@Jlemgal]

@@Sportyspice7 It can permanently affect fertility.

[@Sportyspice7]

@@Jlemgal if it’s left untreated for like many months/years. That like never happens in people. The flu can also kill you. Thousands of people die from the flu each year. Chlamydia doesn’t do that.

[@nixx0334]

@@Sportyspice7 Proponents of loose liberated sex culture ARE LYING TO YOU ABOUT SEXUAL HEALTH Herpes is not safe to have just because it's common, it could prevent you from safely having natural childbirth or risk passing it directly to your newborn the first day of its life. Chlamydia is not safe to have just because you cannot see the affected organ being ravaged by disease. And people die of the Flu all the time.

[@ellenenassar1459]

I feel as though now, within this society, that sex drives a relationship way too much. I want to be able to date someone for AT LEAST 6 months without being asked for/about sex. Why is me being good in bed or easy to get in bed the deciding factor whether someone will like me or not? Now thats anxious and exhausting for me 🤷‍♀️.

[@amysho2192]

I'm with you on that. Also a man, even a nice guy, might just want to have fun for a while but isn't really looking to get married. He may enjoy your company for a year or 2, maybe longer, then bye. My friend wanted to get married and have kids. She dated this older man who said he wanted to get married eventually but wanted to make sure they were compatible. They stayed together 5 years, then he broke up with her and started dating someone even younger. So gross. I tried to warn her but she is too sweet and trusting and thoughtful he was a good guy. Then she started dating another guy. She had positive things to say about him. But I noticed my other friend was talking about dating a guy with the same name. They were both sleeping with him. So then I asked his last name and found out they were sleeping with the same guy. And they worked at the same place and didn't even know. (The girls worked at the same preschool.) I tried warning them that he sounded like a player as he was telling them he didn't want anything too serious yet, but he was "really into them". He told them both they were the only one he was seeing. These girls were smart and good girls. One had a master's degree and they were both duped by this charming player. When I told them and they talked to each other about it, they were both shocked. 😢 They both stopped seeing him. Just 2 years later both of these girls got married to (seemingly) good guys and have been married for about 3 years now. I just think it's scary out there and you never know who you can trust!

[@saplingsofsweven1125]

Yes i agree it is robbing people of truly knowing one another and loving eachother for there soul! Sex can muddy the dynamics. 100% detrimental and a crime against humanity, to get a society to believe sex should be the driving factor. Ansolutely bonkers. I feel i can speak to this, cause been there done that.

[@rach_storm-007]

Whether someone saves themselves for marriage (such an odd phrase but okay) or not is a personal thing. Whatever works for you. I appreciate Ellen’s willingness to have a respectful conversation with someone who has an opposing view to her. But there is so much judgement in this comment section, it’s truly mind blowing…

[@SarahFeldman-qi5rq]

There has been a shift in social incentives that seems to encourage women to embrace single motherhood rather than prioritize marriage. This shift is often reinforced by cultural or economic factors. While it’s true that not everyone needs an elaborate wedding ceremony, marriage still holds a unique social and emotional significance for many people. However, it’s also important to acknowledge that marriage was originally a religious institution before it became intertwined with legal and governmental frameworks. The role of government in marriage has changed its nature and scope over time, which is a point of contention for some people.

[@corina07haha]

I was a virgin until my wedding night at 28 years of age. And you know what, I did it for myself…I did it for God. I understood the risks of sex before marriage, and I was scared of all that. I’m truly truly happy I did that and God allowed me to wait a long time. With God, all things are possible. If you love the Lord, you can do these things that seem hard in todays culture

[@midlifemagick]

Conversations like this that are respectful are great, but there really isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' way that lays down a blueprint that everyone should follow. We are all spiritual souls in a material body having a unique experience with our own lessons to learn. What needs to come from these sorts of conversations is that it is possible to live individual lives, having those unique experiences, whilst being in harmony with each other. Respectful and compassionate that others can and do have different opinions and life journeys than ours and that's ok.

[@VivaaLaaLyssaa]

Maddie, if you see this, thank you for sharing your perspective. I am so sorry for the terrible indoctrination you received concerning purity and relationships. My heart goes out to you. I can feel how detrimental that was and is, and I am so sorry you weren't uplifted in the ways necessary to support your beautiful sexuality. I hope you know that God does not condone these false ideas that were planted in you that caused such harm. You are very well-spoken, and I am grateful for you speaking out. I pray for your continual healing and for your relationship with God to be strengthened. You are loved.

[@mmm-3737]

My opinion: non religious people mainly populate cities like NY, she has had bad experiences like most others, pron and suggestive girls are the main issue of causing infidelity, s*xuality has been continuously pushed on us, cheating is not okay… I could go on

[@jodi9361]

The one question that I felt like neither side discussed is what exactly is "sacred sex?" To me, sex is most sacred when it is consensual, communicative, and explorative. "Sacred" isn't exclusive to Christianity. Just food for thought.

[@Lore.marrie]

This connection is only on your part. Men fake this connection to have sex. The connection that a man has in bed is just tension, their surrender is just fixed. When a man truly loves a woman, the connection with her is outside of bed.

[@myhappyface7417]

Maddie admits previously having her 'whole identity in Christianity' but it seems she now has it all placed in sex and relationships. I fear she has bitten the poison of modern day individualism that says true happiness comes from satisfying your own desires. I lost a bit of credibility for Maddie in the first few minutes after her claims she has been very studious in looking into the historical claims of Christianity, scriptural research, breathing in textbooks etc... then she reached a point where she realised 'it is not at all true, it is not absolute truth'... 'it is all about social control, it is all about power and control, it's all based in fear and it is not based in love'. The irony is these are very absolute truth claims themselves and, to be honest, I don't know many (or any) serious historians (including atheists) that would fully agree with that statement (but perhaps I'm wrong). I'm sorry she's had such a bad experience with folks at her particular church, but would love for her to go back to the basics of the claims of Jesus. Appreciated her honesty and bravery to come onto a platform like this though, thank you.

[@saplingsofsweven1125]

The "Truth" is that casual sex is Not based in "True" Love

[@Lore.marrie]

She is quite wrong. Sex in all cultures and peoples has always been seen as a commitment to great care and stability in raising children. Even polygamous cultures have strict morals. Immorality always exists, but it is something separate, it is never encouraged by society because it causes harm. Even Foucault, who spent his entire life saying that everything was a domination of power, at the end of his life admitted that sex was always based on commitment and great care.

[@shalon5030]

There is one argument I did not hear is regarding the data behind couples who have not lived together before marriage are less likely to divorce. Those couples that abstain from sex and cohabitation before marriage are more likely to be religious and are less likely to divorce because of the religious influences. These couples may stay in unhappy marriages because divorce is frowned upon in their communities.

[@proud2batj87]

I'm sure that plays into it in some places, but the data also shows that middle aged, married, religious women also experience better and more frequent orgasms than all other demographics of women. So I would think that points to many of the monogamous religious couples actually having great marriages, not just staying together due to outside pressure.

[@proud2batj87]

I'm sure it's both. I'm sure some people stay out of a sense of duty/commitment, but the data also shows that married, middle aged, religious women have better and more frequent orgasms than all other demographics of women. So that leads me to believe that probably a majority of them do actually have great marriages.

[@rach_storm-007]

​@@proud2batj87 what data is this and who conducted the research? i find it quite hard to believe this to be the case.

[@kitefosta]

There are a lot of smug people here commenting about their superior ideas and sex lives. Not everyone has to (or wants to) live the same as you do. Individuals have different experiences and needs and desires. You waited until marriage and are thrilled about it? Wonderful! You didn’t wait and you regret it? Totally understandable. I’m a 43-yr-old virgin; I’m emotionally damaged from celibacy, trying to connect with my suppressed sexuality now that I’m middle-aged, trying to work through the shame and fear instilled in me (by design) by purity culture. If asked, I wouldn’t recommend to a young person that they follow in my celibate footsteps. All of us have valid experiences, none of which need to be compared to each other’s or used to try to override other people’s beliefs and feelings. And for Christians, we’d all do well to remember that there are a billion things in scripture that can be interpreted in different ways, and none of us can rightfully claim that our personal interpretation is The Right One. If God doesn’t like how someone is living, He’s more than capable of dealing with them Himself. He doesn’t need His followers giving each other lectures to shame people into compliance.

[@ChopChic1]

So in summary, she had a great example of a healthy loving marriage from her Christian parents, but decided to go the opposite direction because...? Now she's made a career bashing the very thing that she saw works as a child from her parents. Don't reject the wisdom of things that have worked for centuries. God's ways are far above ours and when we think we have a better idea is when we invite destruction into our lives.

[@dallas41891]

I love this!!

[@UknowAcow]

Maybe her parents created such a loving home and allowed space to free think and discover a life of her own and still love her?! Perhaps?! So many times Christian homes do not hold space for this, I’m glad to hear her parents are wonderful. Just because her parents showed a great example - doesn’t mean she didn’t witness other married couples who saved themselves end in divorce. It’s definitely nuanced.

[@Sammiejammie521]

@@UknowAcowright and she missed all of the examples of promiscuous women and men getting in horrible relationships, creating broken families and suffer from stds… 😉

[@ChopChic1]

@@UknowAcow But typically you go off of what you're raised by because that's your everyday, best example. She may have known couples that ended in divorce that waited till marriage-- but she didn't get the close up view of what went on like in her own household. All I'm saying, if she witnessed something beautiful that worked, why wouldn't she try and do the same? It's all this ego and attitude that we know better that ends in disaster. Her boyfriend will never want to marry her because she's already giving up everything. Why would he want to legally bind himself to her if it gives him no extra advantages?

[@UknowAcow]

Did you miss the part where she did try to do it like her parents? She didn’t have sex until her mid 20s after she had a serious boyfriend in college (aka marry young, don’t have sex until marriage). Also there are quite a few men in the world that marry women they have slept with prior to marriage. (Spoiler: her parents married young - but her mom was pregnant on her wedding day 😱 and alas they have an amazing example of a loving marriage - whew so glad you weren’t in her family to judge them!) Pretty big assumption to think her current boyfriend may not want to marry her because she has “given up everything.” In this case the only thing women have to give to a male is the state of their hymen? Otherwise they have nothing to offer a man? Isn’t it crazy to think that some people marry simply based on loving one another, enjoying each others space, than simply bc they get a tax break from the government?! Also - when you witness women stay at home, raise the kids, then get divorced and are left with nothing and have to completely struggle and rebuild - it definitely makes one want to protect oneself from that. Aka have their own assets, have their own career, not have the government tell you what you have to split depending on the state laws etc.

[@elissajohnson3698]

This was amazing Ellen. My husband and I married later in life after other marriages, and I wish we would have had the sacred experience of only being with each other. I 100% resonate and love your message in this one. Beautiful!

[@forevermia622]

I did not save sex for marriage and I’m so glad I didn’t! I’ve only had sex in loving partnerships and have had no regrets afterwards. My partner is the same way. We’ve had very healthy experiences so to anyone reading the skewed comments, know that it is possible. And you get to make that choice!

[@Velvetgreencouch86]

The idea that “you change” as reason to explore w premarital sex is just not justifiable to me. I met my husband at 18 and at 38 we are definitely not the same people and we didn’t always necessarily “grow together”. We grew as people and realized that we are going to keep growing into a new versions of ourself. So like Esther Perel said “you can start a new relationship with someone else, or you can start a new relationship with the person you’re already with”. Resetting and reintroducing yourself to your husband or wife is essential! You won’t be the same person. And I tend to believe that if your spouse is overall a great person, WITH flaws and even difficult personality traits, you don’t just give up and todays culture the “grass is greener elsewhere” is just getting exhausting to hear and to see how it’s destroying marriages. Dr Jordan Peterson has a GREAT KZbin video on marriage called the marriage series and it’s is fantastic to watch for many reasons, but this topic comes up too, and I truly enjoyed his perspective

[@midi510]

There is no such thing as casual sex, although you can have sex casually. Sex always (at least between a man and woman) connects two people on many levels, whether they're conscious of it or not. That doesn't mean, though, that you can't have short term encounters where both parties are enriched. If each party gives more than they take, there's a net positive and no one should feel used. They are then connected in special ways that should be acknowledged and it takes a pretty mature person for that. Sex should always be in love and we can love whomever we want whenever we want. Love is an aspect of God"s nature and is everywhere always. We just usually require specific circumstances to allow ourselves to experience it.

[@ramona8807]

I regret having premarital sex. I had my first experience at 16 because I felt social and cultural (movies, tv shows, porn, school books, books and music) pressure for still being a virgin and guys never liked me before that. All my friends were talking about the sex they were having and I felt like there was something wrong with me for not having that experience. I bought into the idea that it's empowering and it's better to be experienced before you find your person because then you know what to do. Like it's sports or something. I wish someone had told me that sex is sacred and that once you find your person you have baggage. Sometimes memories come up that I don't want in my head. They aren't arousing at all. They are gross to me. I wish I was pure mentally and spiritually. I pray a lot for God to fade the memories and He does. They are getting more and more foggy thankfully. It still sucks to know how I have sinned against my own body not respecting myself and my then future husband. I pray that me and my husband are able to raise our kids to know and love God and the Bible. The world just gets crazier by the day and I pray we get the wisdom to help our kids see the truth and not fall into the endless lies in this fallen world.

[@savagemockingbird7750]

47:49 Being from the rural Midwest, most people I know still have one parent staying at home with the children, and it was like that growing up. I’m not talking about people who make a lot of money either, I’m talking about very middle class people.

[@abiwahn1]

Also from rural Midwest and most (not all) of my friends had mom at home.

[@bekahmoten2308]

This is one of my favorite debates you've had on this podcast!! Thank you so much for this thought provoking conversation, I enjoyed every bit of it:)

[@irikupenska]

Anyone else outside of the US watching? I find the idea of purity culture absolutely astonishing, without any judgment whatsoever but its something we dont really relate to here in Europe. Waiting for marriage is not incouraged but rather sexual education and being safe. Majority of people have had different partners before meeting the one and its rarely an issue.

[@rach_storm-007]

I'm not from the US so this is completely fascinating to me - including the comments 😊

[@muzsika5616]

Hello, fellow european😊 I listened to this a few weeks ago and left a similar comment. In my experience people here are doing what works for them and don't care this much. And also, it seems to be a lesser amount of content here where people try to convince the other that their way is the only way to go. (At least in my experience , I may be wrong.) But honestly, I am not surprised, as they are the country of extremities. Anyways, live and let live✨

[@irikupenska]

@@rach_storm-007 absolutely!

[@irikupenska]

@@muzsika5616 yeah, I find a lot of judgement both ways which I think serves to further confuse younger generations.

[@Lollypop1226]

I'm an American who lives in Germany. Thankfully, where I'm from there wasn't a big Evangelical community but I was encouraged in a PUBLIC school to wait until marriage to have sex and we were required to right an essay where we had to say whether we would wait until marriage or not and why. Needless to say.... everybody said that they would wait and then nobody waited until marriage, lol. I am from a conservative area, so we had abstinence only sexual education. That is not everyone's experience and I can't speak for all Americans. I know a lot of schools would be very factual about sex and educated students about birth control. We were also required to watch birth videos to discourage sex. I'll never forget my teaching pausing the video as the baby was crowning to warn us about the "dangers" of sex, haha.

[@user-uc6gg1jq6i]

Cheating is a symptom of a toxic person 😂

[@reginaolson3671]

“Sin will take you farther than you want to go, it will keep you longer than you want to stay, and it will cost you more than you want to pay.”

[@FerventFathers]

Mattie’s position is devoid of the reality and power of God to work in and through a marriage. She seeks to have what she wants apart from a dependency on God. She is also highly minimizing the sin of fornication and sees no remorse or repentance. She expressed reasons why she strayed from God, but her reasons seem to do from people in the Church and her own lack of intimacy with Christ. And her unbelief.

[@Melissadenyce]

So because she's not a Christian her position is invalid?

[@hannahm8120]

Ellen, thank you so much for bringing awareness to topics that impact so many women. I’m so grateful to have you as a role model. Please keep sharing your perspective and having a positive influence on women. You are a vessel for God.

[@AmandaWorkman]

So thankful for Mattie Jo and the voice that she has given to those of us who walked away from purity culture and all its lies. If you chose to wait till marriage - well done. You made a choice and you’ve done it. For the rest of us, we too made beautiful, holy, sacred choices. We didn’t make them lightly. I’ve had some incredible sexual experiences in my lifetime and am now in a committed relationship outside of marriage. Loving every minute of it. Healthy. Happy, Content. Satisfied. It is possible even if the church culture you were raised in told you differently.

[@hmmhuh1222]

How are those choices holy and sacred? Just confused by your use of religious and Biblical terminology. Is anything truly holy if there is no God or defined right and wrong? Not saying you said there is no God, you just brought up some questions with the use of those words

[@JoshuaVillines]

​@@hmmhuh1222- Many of us who are Christians are not fundamentalists, so we reject many of the premises that people who come from fundamentalist congratulations think are inherent in Christianity.

[@Sammiejammie521]

Lmao 😂😂😂

[@AmandaWorkman]

@@hmmhuh1222 I’d love to clarify my use of "holy" and "sacred." While these might sound like biblical terminology, they actually predate Christianity and have been used across many cultures to describe things considered deeply meaningful, intentional, and deserving of reverence. "Holy" and "sacred" are not limited to any one faith; they speak to a sense of purpose and respect that goes beyond any specific religious doctrine. As for "right and wrong," they’ve been relative concepts, even within Christianity, for centuries-going back to when the Bible itself was being written. The Apostle Paul’s epistles often wrestle with differing views on right and wrong across cultural and spiritual lines. For example: In Romans 14, Paul acknowledges that one person may see eating certain foods as wrong, while another doesn’t, advising them both to act in accordance with their beliefs while respecting each other’s conscience. Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 8, Paul explains that while eating food sacrificed to idols is acceptable for some, it’s a moral dilemma for others-and both perspectives are valid. These passages illustrate that "right and wrong" have always involved personal and contextual interpretation, even within biblical teachings. So, back to "holy" and "sacred"-in essence: Holy is something regarded with deep respect, often because it’s connected to values, purpose, or inner life. It’s something set apart or dedicated to something beyond the ordinary. Sacred describes what we see as deserving of reverence or devotion. This might be a personal decision, a relationship, or a practice worthy of that level of respect. For example, someone might find meaning in a sacred ritual, like meditation or prayer, that brings them closer to their true self or a sense of purpose. Similarly, people across cultures describe their commitment to family, work, or a love of nature as sacred-even outside any formal religion. Sacredness and holiness, then, reflect the weight and intention we bring to something, rather than adherence to a specific doctrine. I used "holy" and "sacred" here to honor the mindful, deeply intentional choices people make around relationships and personal boundaries. It’s possible to see these decisions as sacred and meaningful, with or without religious ties.

[@soulyhealth]

@@AmandaWorkmanlove your comments and fully resonate 🙏

[@jessicacassidy1089]

Comparing chlamydia to the flu was a stretch 😂

[@kamaraalya7607]

The fact that you have to "try" all these people to know what you want... It's rather dehumanizing to yourself and others. You can know what you want without sacrificing your soul in the process

[@shelby698]

It’s so so so much more magical to wait. I’m with you Ellen!

[@TMarieAus24]

For me even though Ellen is open to the conversation she speaks from a position of privilege. She found someone young that believed in the same belief system and made it work. I’m not saying it was easy I’m saying that is a privilege. I also think saying sex is scarred to me sounds more like a religious experience rather than a spiritual experience. Stating what she said later on that sex should be with a safe secure and trusted human. That is what we should strive for. I don’t know what the over all best thing to do is. I’m married and I have 3 children. I do teach them about sex and state learn yourself first before you look outward for a partner.

[@Lucas_0913]

What are you even saying

[@TMarieAus24]

@@Lucas_0913read for comprehension and understanding instead of trying to have discord……

[@muzsika5616]

Well, I just finished this episode, and, I think, the most important thing I take away from it is that I am eternally grateful that I was not born in the USA.

[@maddy-zzz]

This was a fascinating episode! Both of you were so well spoken and I found myself resonating with points on both sides.

[@kate3276]

Love love love that you are tackling these “taboo” conversations!

[@starhealth2118]

Satan wants us to think we have found our "own way" [1:56:17-1:56:26] , but there are only two ways: God's way or not God's way

[@Karah127]

What a great conversation. I appreciated hearing both of your experiences and thoughts. I married my best friend who I had known since I was 15 and we waited till marriage. We’ve now been married almost 15 years and are more in love now than we were back then. And our intimate relationship has only gotten stronger. While I’m not necessarily an advocate of waiting till marriage in the way that I’d be a chewed up piece of gum if I hadn’t, I do think there is such great value in waiting for the right person and you are in a committed relationship. It’s kind of funny, every single person who scoffed at me for waiting and said things like "you wouldn’t buy a car without test driving it" is now divorced or has never been in a committed relationship.

[@sydneymckenna7118]

Ellen, you are spot on ❤

[@Lore.marrie]

She has been dating for 2 years, and she talked about marriage, and the guy said that he should just let it happen and see what happens. I've seen this movie so many times. He'll never get married because he doesn't want to commit. He knows that living together isn't marriage, and that what they're living together is just for a while, while things are good. Even if they get married, the marriage won't last. I'm sure that the bond she has with him isn't the same as the one he has with her.

[@trinityfaithnorth11423]

I really appreciated both of y'all's approach to this conversation and I find it fascinating how y'all found common ground regarding the feminist movement and how men's and women's places have gotten kinda flipped.

[@user-vd2jk7dl3p]

I didn't meet my husband until we were 36. We both waited until marriage. No regrets 😊❤

[@janettemarabella3221]

This women has gone down a very dark path. She seems very jaded and hurt. In need of healing.

[@DanielleBabyBliss]

Honestly one is someone who has been through hardships and one is very lucky and privileged. Verdict choice matters, sex Ed matters. Simple.

[@by_deleon]

I’ll admit I’m really struggling to listen to this opposing view, it feels like Ellen is speaking directly from the heart, common sense, and data, and the other side is actively convincing themselves of a narrative to justify based on church hurt and previous negative experiences. It’s important to discuss different viewpoints, but I give Ellen props for this one.

[@yolandaschrock]

My husband and I met later in life and we both valued the sexual aspects enough to save ourselves. Fifteen years and three kids later, we’re still going strong. You could not hand me a promiscuous life on a silver platter. I have had friends who made that choice and I wouldn’t trade for the world. 🙂

[@Cleo-bm2vv]

If you've never been married before how would you know the difference between how sex would feel for you within or outside of a marriage

[@Allybaba55]

Ellen is such a healthy balance. Like even if "waiting till marriage" seems extreme, she has balanced opinions on some things. Having standards and morality and cultural (religious, community, etc) boundaries is normal and healthy. Also, why would we want to encourage society to risk having so many negative experiences? Like there is nothing to gain from that. That wears you down over time. It just does.

[@sarahw7244]

I'm sorry that Abbie had such a poor experience and interpretation of how teaching about sex was handled. There's definitely toxic purity culture. But I feel like a lot of the mainstream evangelical denominations are getting better at how they approach the subject. I feel like my church, who taught courtship and abstinence, did it without villifying sex. Yes, we were taught that it's God's gift to married couples. It's a serious, sacred, and pleasurable act with the power to create life. As a nurse, I do agree that kids should be taught biology, reproduction, anatomy, and the options for preventing pregnancy and STI. But, I don't feel that information needs to come as a mandatory class from a public school. The government makes a terrible parent.

[@slimjadeyyy]

Excited for this one as I often question this topic myself

[@jennellecocco7211]

40:17 nodding my as I relate to everything she just said and then oh, no wonder!. Grew up in Orange County too. I still feel like I don’t belong here as I focus on being a traditional wife and mom and homeschooling our kids.

[@mayapaya314]

It hurts more because its more vulnerable, theyve seen more of you in a raw way and then essentially reject you. Its easy to brush off somebody who rejects you that you see on the street vs somebody who you give a lot to.

[@fairweatherannie]

Good on you, dear Ellen, for not settling for a mediocre life; for aiming for something higher and more wonderful. ❤

[@countrybumpkin9896]

I literally love Ellen. She is such an enigma. She’s amazing

[@aniekanakai]

52:20 it is the lack of respect and misalignment in expectation that makes it feel bad. With proper communication on what each person is getting into it is less likely to have any bad feelings afterwards except expectations are not met.

[@UknowAcow]

Most people following Ellen’s podcast are going to lean to agree with her. I appreciate her having a differing view than her own lived experience. Just bc someone has chosen to wait doesn’t make it right or the best way. Others find lots of freedom and self trust and exploration in having multiple partners. That is ok too. To each their own in seeking self trust and honoring themselves and seeking a life partner!

[@KatharinaSchreckeneder]

I just LOVE Ellen's podcast. The way she and her guest discuss controversial topics so respectfully and honestly is overwhelmingly beautiful. Please keep doing this, it's soothing for our souls... ❤️

[@Oripofview]

It is so beautiful to witness this open-minded conversation and I wanna say thank you Mattie for speaking your truth. I agree with every word you said, not to diminish Ellen's opinion, but...I think it is fundamental to "do what feels right for you" not what society or religion tells you to!

[@KayMadison]

All I see is this woman has trauma. I feel her trauma POURING out of her in her conviction. She was traumatized through her upbringing in religion, unfortunately.

[@mariachristina232]

So i grew up in the church knowing what the word of God said about sex and Marriage. It wasn’t pushed on me nor was I shamed like it seems Mattie was and i think that has everything to do with why she believes what she does today. I am now 35 never married and no kids. I have dated a lot! I had many serious relationships and casual sexual relationships and after all that wasted time! I am convinced that waiting for your husband is the ultimate goal. If i could go back to my younger self i would take Ellens advice and have that be the goal. I’m now sick of dating and for 4 years now I’ve been single and non sexual. I am ready to date for marriage only. The independent woman movement is so toxic and it got me like it has so many others like Mattie. Sex was created for marriage by God. 😅

[@CHK12319]

Men expect you to put out so early in dating these days. I had every intention to wait until engagement after getting out of a 7-year relationship and I was SAed by the first guy I said "no" to. I blame hookup culture, I really do. Being intimate so fast shouldn't be normalized.

[@allysonphelps6105]

So grateful I had my seven babies when I was young. My nest is empty now and I have nothing but time to focus on me me me. And there is not a day go by that I regret being in the trenches of motherhood for all those years. There is no career reward or relationship that will ever come close to the depth of love and connection I have with my children and grandchildren. If you have that tug in your heart to be home full time with your babies, I send you my love and support from afar and highly recommend you find a community of like minded women that can you can create a village with 💕💓

[@suvisantini9712]

My parents met each other when they were 29 and they waited till marriage (which was another 2 years), they are very happy together. I dont see why waiting has anything to do with being young. I believe as a woman sex is even more intimate than for a guy, it is literally letting someone as close to you as you will ever be (except pregnancy and while you were floating in your moms womb). As it is something so intimate it shoudl be considered sacred and a woman should choose wisely whom she lets to be in her and whom not. Lots of guys if they truly have pure intentions will wait and they wont over do marriage. They will wait until she is ready. Its a sign to proof himself. I used the same tactic for my husband and he waited 2 years until I had my masters degree. We planned our marriage already for one year and got married that same year I finished my thesis. Its not like we didnt have a form of sexuality before, of course we were kissing and making out, I knew when he had a boner and we had seen each other naked as we used to bath and shower together. But intercourse was ment for the wedding night. I was kinda scared and he also was a bit nervous the days before, but we went up to our room and were just so happy to be married, I asked him if we should do it tomorrow and he said no, we waited for 3 years, he could sense that I was super nervous and we would just talk for hours, cuddling, kissing and finally also having sex. I felt safe and loved in his arms and we both had to cry and laugh. We both already knew how to stimulate another and he knew how to touch me because of dating before. After having had sex I felt even more attached to him. I could literally feel how I bonded more and more with every stroke. I felt super vulnerable afterwards but because we were married and I knew him so well already and because he loved me and held me in his arms and told me how happy he is with me and that he loves me so much and will dedicate his life to make me happy, that vulnerabilty felt shared with the right person. I know my best friend who slept with a guy who seemed nice but she quickly after 3 weeks went into the sheets with him..he barly replied. He told her that she was super sexy and he couldnt believe she was a virgin (which she shared proudly) but he also let her go quickly. SHe was heartbroken and ever since that her love choices always wanted early on sex and never planned on being more serious than just dating (sometimes demanding sex). I think dating for some time is important. I dont htink dating 2 years is important, i think you can know someone after 9 months, thats also how my husband proposed to me. After 9 months and because he was already in his phd he said he wanted me to finish my masters degree, we saved up money and got married. Might also be part of cultural differences as he is asian though..

[@suvisantini9712]

Also in Austria you also get to be home for 1 (you can choose) but I chose to stay home for 2 years. Its not like you can choose in other countries (which is still possible but you get way less money). Its not like after 1 year you feel ready again for work. You can also see a developmental difference between those kids who have a least one parent at home all the time vs those being in daycare for 30h a week. Of course the family needs money, thats why I am also happy that my husband earns quite a lot, I got my family who supports us (through housing and also helping with the baby every day and with cleaning etc) and I also make money through side hustles which support my family. My mom and grandma always had a side hustle and often would make quite a good additional money. Being a stay home mom isnt only doing cleaning and cooking and baby sitting (for which I get daily support form my family additionally to not having to burn myself out for a job which I am not selfsuficiant)

[@martaso643]

I identify 100% with what Ellen said starting at around 40'. I didn't want to be a mom but once I did that became the most important thing in my life and the thing I love the most in my life. And I wasn't expecting that at all. Of course I then failed at my career and burnt out. 🙈

[@rebeccafidura9070]

Mattie being against marriage then explaining how she’s living with her partner bc it’s too expensive live on her own.. 🤔

[@laurfred2742]

I strongly stand behind the blessing it is to save sex for marriage, for the person who wants to only love you and COMMIT to YOU and you only. I was not taught this growing up. I had my first baby at 17 years old. After I found and joined my church, I met my bow husband and we waited until out wedding day. It was 1,000,000% worth the wait. He adopted that sweet baby and we have been married for 16 years now. And "its" GREAT.

[@SarahFeldman-qi5rq]

Don’t rush into marriage. stop viewing porn even soft porn, which is everywhere. Get healthy, read, workout, pray and meditate, given to people. The world is trying to push sex, sex, sex, why? because it corrupts our minds because it is powerful. It's meant to be beautiful but can be so easily perverted. Dont rush into marriage. Get to know each other. That takes time. You can control your urges; I know this firsthand. But you must purge the garbage. It might take time, but you can do it. Be patient and kind to yourselves if you slip up. But it can become additive, and we are pushing that on to our young and ourselves.

[@nothanksmegan]

my friends who grew up religiously but left for the worship of wokeism, always blame their religious upbringing whenever they feel guilt or shame over a bad decision. They do this to avoid accountability. I often ask them “I didn’t grow up religiously but I would feel guilt and shame too. What is my excuse?” They proceed to say I’ve internalized purity culture through (my very liberal) public schooling or some nonsense 😂

[@BrittanyHagy]

Ellen, you're so graceful when you speak. I admire you! Thank you for tackling the hard subjects!

[@devotedtoextraordinary]

I feel like saving ourselves for marriage now is being discussed more lately!!

[@SarahFeldman-qi5rq]

Im catholic, it was explicitly told to me that my sexuality was good. But the push of pornography and turning women into objects was rejected. Anytime you don't value the whole person you are devaluing the person. Sex is sacred and sleeping with people that are only wanting you physically is devaluing the person. You can devalue yourselves when you give yourselves to people that only want you for sex. Sure two people can sleep with each other and both mutually not want anything more, you both are using each other. This can be the biggest damaging part. Women physically release oxytocin after sex which creates attachment, so having a higher likelihood of getting hurt. Tho not always the women that can get hurt, but often is the case. Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul has some amazing insight into this.

[@jaord530]

First comment- Excited for this one 🎉!

[@nosuitcaseneeded]

I appreciate this conversation! I think there is a middle ground to this topic which may be best for the majority of people. I was also raised like Mattie and I felt so controlled and shamed for being a boy crazy girl, wore a purity ring, etc. It never fit my sexual spirit and I went on a rebellious explorative season. Now that I am older, I absolutely believe sex is sacred, and you should not immediately jump into sex with any random person and I do think people should wait as long as they feel comfortable and not make sex the main aspect of a relationship. I also do believe being with too many people can be damaging. A middle ground of seeing sex as sacred and special, with those who respect you and value you is great, which can happen within a committed partnership (married or not).

[@jennifergroom2832]

I was made fun of so much in high-school for being firm on waiting until marriage. A lot pf people called me prude to my face and even had guy walk up to me saying when you can't wait any more call me. I got reaquainted with my childhood sweetheart at 20 after he became a Christian. We waited and got married a yeat later. Its been 12 years and we love eachother more than ever. Our sex life is WAY better the more we know each other and trust one another. As a Christian I grew up knowing from. Young age that sex was created by God for us and nothing to be ashamed of. He has parameters for sex but these are by his design for our good Now after being married and having conversations with non-Christian friends about sex its incredibly sad how many are having to turn towards porn to satisfy their urges instead of eachother. I don't understand why people think that absinance is crazy when the results aren't any better. For those comitted to a happy healthy marriage it's infinitely better.

[@FerventFathers]

I am thinking pornography is also ruining men and their ability to properly love women. I am thinking Mattie’s sexual experiences were affected by that as well.

[@nothanksmegan]

No cheating is never ok. If you’re being abused, the last thing you should be spending time on is another relationship! #1 if your abuser finds out that you’re cheating…. Very bad. #2 the person willing to date someone who is in an abusive relationship probably isn’t very healthy or stable themselves. There are always red flags when you end up with an abuser; I know the truth is hard to hear and people will accuse me of victim blaming when I am doing no such thing. Post-abuse you should spend time healing and reflecting, not jumping into a new relationship.

[@bronwynclouse1776]

When you put God first in your relationship you will find the right person at any age. If you have waited to have sex until then, doesn't matter how old you are and how long you haven't had sex. With God first, you make sure you are so gentle and understanding and help each other grow. The unfortunate situation is that people don't put God first and even if they haven't had sex, they were exposed to sexuality through movies, books, music and porn. That is what is making unhealthy sex lives. If we were living as the Bible tells us all of the negative alignments to relationships would be gone.

[@Brooke-e7l]

Maddy seems to have a lot of church hurt. I grew up in the Mormon church born and raised. I was very rebellious because I didn’t have a father and had daddy issues, got SA multiple times by boys and girls, and slut shamed and guilted so hard for losing my virginity at the age of 15. (So much so that I almost committed suicide). I since then have found the true Gospel of Jesus and am married at 27 years old with two kids. I had so much sex before marriage and all it gave me was STDs, heartbreak, unwanted soul ties, and the only good thing to come out of it was an unplanned pregnancy that led me to marry the baby daddy who I’m still married to today I thank God he saved my life through that and now I’m not out in these streets any longer. I also had a cervical cancer scare because I slept with probably over 50 people total(almost always unprotected), that miraculously went away by prayer. God works in mysterious ways no matter where we come from or where we’re at in life.

[@LRDUSA]

Good topic.