Astrology and Ancient Philosophy

A discussion about the relationship between astrology, philosophy, and religion in ancient times, focusing primarily on Greco-Roman world in classical antiquity, with Dr. Justin Sledge and Chris Brennan.
Our main focus is on discussing the ways in which astrology influenced some of the different philosophical and religious schools in the Greco-Roman world, from the Hellenistic era through the time of the Roman Empire and into the early Medieval period.
We also discuss questions like what was the philosophy underlying the practice of astrology in antiquity? To what extent did ancient astrologers articulate a personal philosophy? What was the purpose of practicing astrology in the ancient world?
During the course of the discussion we ended up touching on topics such as what is the mechanism underlying astrology (whether it works through signs or causes), issues surrounding fate, free-will, determinism, as well as the role of various schools such as Platonism, Aristotelianism, Stoicism, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Christianity, and more.
This was originally an interview for Justin's Esoterica KZbin channel, where he interviewed Chris based on his book Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune, but afterward we agreed to release the discussion as an episode of The Astrology Podcast simultaneously because it ended up being such a fantastic discussion that is very relevant to both of our audiences.
Justin's KZbin channel:
/ @theesotericachannel
This is episode 316 of The Astrology Podcast:
theastrologypodcast.com/2021/...
Chris' book Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune:
www.amazon.com/Hellenistic-As...
Please be sure to like and subscribe!
#TheAstrologyPodcast
Timestamps
00:00:00 Intro
00:05:50 The Hellenistic World
00:07:50 Astrology and coping philosophies
00:08:50 Mundane astrology
00:09:18 First birth charts dating to 410 BCE
00:13:57 How a Hellenistic astrologer would define astrology
00:19:00 Fate in the Hellenistic world
00:21:33 Stoic philosophy and Hellenistic astrology
00:29:02 Internal and External Fate in Astrology
00:32:20 Impact of Plato's Timaeus and Myth of Er on astrology
00:39:20 Names of gods applied to planets
00:47:21 Astrology of causes: Aristotle and Ptolemy
00:56:00 Stoic eternal recurrence model of the universe
00:58:16 Ptolemy and determinism
01:02:55 Backlash against determinism from Christianity
01:16:10 How Justin would teach Greek philosophy
01:18:10 How astrology was used to justify the birth of Jesus
01:20:00 The birth chart of Jesus controversy
01:21:30 Length of life technique
01:24:10 Astrological magic tradition
01:28:05 Increase in popularity of astrology
01:33:24 St. Augustine's criticism of astrology
01:38:12 Different levels of astrology in society
01:39:38 Ronald Reagan's astrologer
01:40:40 Levels of magic in society
01:43:30 Technical Hellenistic manuals translated into verse
01:44:55 Lost 1st century BCE source texts
01:47:33 Astrological texts in verse
01:53:34 Dorotheus verse example
01:55:10 Origins of horary astrology
02:02:15 Astrology straddling line between science and religion
02:05:03 Astrology a practical technology
02:06:40 Future discussion: philosophical challenges to astrology
02:07:29 21st century practice of astrology
02:08:11 Addressing ancient skeptical critiques of astrology
02:14:20 Closing Remarks

[@TheAstrologyPodcast]

Let me know if you have any questions about the philosophy behind ancient astrology, or especially the links between astrology and the ancient philosophical schools!

[@tamaracoelho2769]

It would be interesting to see some deeper discussions on how the symbolism/ archetypes of the zodiacal signs mirror hellenistic philosophical premises, as for example: "Love = beauty = harmony = justice" implicit in the symbol of Libra. 😊

[@greysea9807]

How can I help?

[@judyrahming1324]

Love love love it give me Insight on what I already know and I'm interested in moving forward in👍

[@tangerine2882]

I'm so glad to see another episode with Dr Sledge. Christ Brennan + Dr Sledge is my podcast dream team!

[@overthoughtandunderstated]

I read "Christ Brennan", and for some reason my mind didn't take it as a mistake 😎

[@almudenuch]

Fantastic Master Class! Thank you. More episodes, please. You two are top-level professors, such a great commitment to humanity.

[@lubakwena6683]

I find it interesting that in my natal chart it shows some kind of relationship with the metaphysical. I'm very happy that I have become aware of how much knowledge we still do not know.

[@trish4977]

This was fabulous, thank you so much...I have never heard of this before....I am over 60 and I so wish that I had been taught this in school....thank you gentleman I loved it.

[@karendonovan8271]

Thank you so much for sharing this historical overview! I questioned a scripture scholar many years ago regarding this topic. I am so grateful to both you and Justin for sharing this history and giving me the opportunity to understand how astrology fell out of favor with the rise of Christianity. So interesting to finally understand something I have been curious about for most of my life. It is amazing to me how enormous amounts of time pass before there is opportunity for understanding. Here we are in the 21st century and I can finally understand centuries of belief in a couple of hours thanks to the interest and dedication you both have invested so much time in! I appreciate every moment of interest and the knowledge you have of this intriguing study. It certainly gives an interesting perspective on beliefs and our evolutionary process. Thanks again! Look forward to reading your book Chris. I have own it but have not yet read it.

[@LaraNewellBarrette]

This was brilliant! Such high level, yet accessible conversation. Well done! Looking forward to future collaborations between the two of you.

[@amethystthescientist7716]

An extremely intellectual discussion of philosophical and astrological history and the facts and controversy surrounding both. So interesting! Thanks for sharing your amazing retentive views on this material.

[@zuzziekapas6733]

This was incredible!!! I'm so happy to see the two of you collaborating. The Astrology Podcast and Esoterica are both channels I frequent. Thank you for sharing your expertise, great dynamic! What a special time to be alive for such comprehensive information be so accessible. #neverbefore Grateful and hope to see future episodes!

[@darkesteye-derkesthai]

Loved this conversation. Deep yet accessible. Not dry, and it always kept moving.

[@MrGuitarguru95]

Just found Esoterica a couple weeks back around the lions gate-very happy to see this collab #thankYou 📈

[@constancewallace9969]

🙏 Thank you, Chris & Justin! Such a pleasure.

[@Laura-il5lo]

Such a thorough episode! And two of my favorite podcasters. Thanks 😊

[@LouValcourt]

This was a wonderful episode. I particularly enjoy the links between stoicism and astrology.

[@middleburyastrology]

Wonderful, wonderful. I'm curious, to get this type of conductive synastry between two people, what the luminary qualities of Justin may be? We are quite fortunate as a community to have such speakers, such devotional seeking and research. I know Chris is a Sun Scorpio with Moon in Aquarius. Big thanks to both of you.

[@camwhiteastro]

Glad to see Justin back on!

[@caseywhiteastr0cosm]

Also, I think it no accident that the ancient literature of techniques lives on yet the philosophy, mostly not! I actually LOVE this part because I believe the philosophy is meant to be found internally within our selves and power, not forming our belief system from an external source. ❤️

[@victoriabianco8980]

I really appreciate your historical dialogue philosophy and astrology. Looking forward to more

[@ravengrey5392]

what a lovely discussion! i absolutely love Justin and his content and love watching the 2 of you together

[@Prudenthermit]

Could listen to you & Justin chat all day 😁

[@brendarenee476]

Fascinating conversation. Looking forward to additional collaborations between these two experts.

[@princessedelarue1989]

My two faves! Great discussion, thank you Chris.

[@sibelius4230]

Seriously interesting conversation. Thank you for posting this!

[@Kasperanzaa]

Super awesome conversation! I thoroughly enjoyed it! Please do a part 2!

[@arzummeleksoy]

Thank you for such a brilliant conversation! Great episode

[@jekalambert9412]

Fantastic conversation! Thank you! The fate/free will conundrum is a really interesting one. I've recently been listening to a lot of presentations about Vedic astrology on the YT channel Ksanati Jyotish that touch on fate vs free will. The way Ksanati presents this is that certain things are fated and cannot be changed, but fated events are influenced by the free will choices an individual makes in response to them. It's the free will responses that allows the individual to evolve along their path on the wheel of karma. Each evolutionary advancement brings the soul closer and closer to completing their karma, and finally allows them to reach moksha or liberation - the point when they can step off the wheel of karma forever. I'm also learning that many of the Hellenistic astrological concepts have parallels in Vedic astrology (or vice versa). Therefore, I'm becoming interested in how much cross cultural exchange occurred between ancient practitioners from different parts of the world, and how these exchanges influenced the development of astrology practices in different regions.

[@discerninglight1998]

Thank you for this fascinating conversation!💛🕊

[@Wendolynn_Jane]

I enjoyed watching because I'm writing a farcical romcom about a wedding ceremony gone awry that combines elements of stoicism and astrology. Best! :)

[@carolconn631]

I really enjoyed this interview, I hope you can do this again.😊 Thank you.

[@melissarhys]

So wonderful. I can't wait for the next instalment.

[@middleburyastrology]

3rd time watching this conversation. This is the most insightful discourse I have heard on astrology in years....maybe ever :) Hoping this video gets lots of views.

[@eaf888]

Thank you! I loved your Stellium Vid. I have 3 cap placements in 6th house

[@jeffd7976]

This is probably the most important discussion that needs to be had in modern spirituality.....considering how the last 1600yrs went in the West. It's good to see Chris in his element again. In discussions of fate, very few examine how the fate of one effects the fate of another just throughout the course of a day, which can be measured in seconds as you pass each other at an intersection, when you arrive at the counter to buy a coffee, etc.

[@lisawomyn21]

My 2nd time listening the whole way through. What a gift!!!

[@honoluluwampum]

I'm so shocked I didn't see these episodes before, I love both your channels so hard! I'm constantly thinking of these intersections. I've continually run into these "cosmological crossroads" for 25 years, no matter what discipline or philosophy in which I'm involved, no matter how I try to escape into the practical. I think the academic world badly needs conversations like this, that are open and curious but still maintain intellectual rigor. Particularly in having an academic perspective that is neither hostile nor identical with the 'practitioner' (although, in more subtle ways, you could say you both are both, lol).

[@maryanna7882]

Wonderful discussion very illuminating and intriguing.

[@neslihancolley7058]

Incredible insights, loved this podcast very much!

[@sincerelyamanifestor5856]

Yes!! I love this collaboration

[@katepreble8574]

Fantastic, big fan of both channels!

[@ealtan]

This was one of the best episodes for me, thank you so much again and again to both of you for expanding our vision and understanding. And I definetely agree about your book Chris. Oh, how I wish I started learning astrology in your age, well I blame fate for that. :))

[@annahollings5336]

Pure gold. Thanks so much🙏

[@sheilaeisele8490]

Wonderful! Wonderful! Yet, again, wonderful! Thankyou!

[@justine866]

I loved this episode so much -- you're a real gem, bro -- but also September's astrology episode pls... ya girl is getting nervous with all these Virgo placements, i need foreknowledge, bro

[@lisawomyn21]

What a great episode! 2 amazing intellectuals discussing! My dad (big intellectual) burned my astrology books when I was a teenager. Wish I could have turned him onto KZbin and the 2 of you but that was a loooonnng time ago. Thanks, as always, Chris!

[@alchemistsanonymous6558]

Of all ism's you mentioned. It's all really Hermeticism, the key of all isms.

[@gaiaswildchildtarot]

Beautiful, thank you 🤍👁️

[@paulmagus2133]

Wonderous, Thank you both

[@lukaszzakrzewski2670]

I love u both any chance to do podcast just on the Plato. You are magical. Thanks

[@roberth2627]

My first chart done over 50's years ago by ,the astrologer Frizzy of S.F. told me the stars Impel, but do not Compel..I never forgot that...! Great discussion..!

[@Umuma871]

Brilliant thank you both 🙏🏽☺️

[@honkmoo9878]

Note: The unintelligible CC at 2:13:38 is 'Dan Attrell'

[@Cmrntylr]

This was an episode I could write an essay about, but I’m on my post work Thursday after a thanksgiving weekend mental fatigue phase. If I was being pulled into astrology for a reason it’s related to this where right now is more like astrology telling me it’s real slapping me in the face and kicking me in the shin every few months or so. “Check this out, skeptic.” Better yet, this was recorded on my birthday. 🥳 Hellenistic astrology and astrology as a whole, why would astrology take astrology out of favor? Because it needed to change with the times. I recall looking at how dated the ancient house system is. Plus, anything institutional corrupts. So enough survives and there’s enough ups and downs in trends to keep it alive being steadily updated and it’s probably best (as with anything related to beliefs) to not be re-institutionalized. I could make a free will vs determinism joke that being able to break from the gods is because it wasn’t 100% right where it only appeared to be breaking the wheels of fate. I personally (at this time) viewing it as forked fates based on development where fates can change while still being bound to the signs and planets. That free will relates to these potential fates more so than the ability to break away completely. Like, I have Venus in libra but I can’t change that and I’m bound to this while being in control over how it’s expressed. I can’t say “hey, I want to act like a Taurus Venus every 5th weekend..” mars is probably a better example. Mars in libra, I know I can alter consciously how that’s expressed. Apparently not when there’s a mars in libra transit. 😝 kidding, I could. I started being passive aggressive and told everyone to NOT PAY ANY attention to anything I say or do. On one hand, I’m pulled into astrology due to not seeing “self” clearly where I kind of need to plus there’s something philosophical related to it. The “what” is what I’m unsure of because I’m not into reading others natal charts plus many of the various uses mentioned. It’s like outer planets, it’s interesting to look listen to these podcasts with references to the past and how life is altered while it’s also obvious they’re not exactly generational because these past transits affect individuals differently. Collectively, it’s awkward where something edges another out. Like, Pluto in libra and my own generation altered definition of marriage for one, but this is something still being challenged and will for many generations or forever. Diplomacy? Not happening it seems. They may impact issues, but long term it seems more individual natal. I get a vibe and sort of a tremble with fear that astrology is actually the right vessel for life goals I’ve had that had other vessels that lost favor. We’ll see what happens when Saturn finally gets out of the sign Aquarius and Pluto gets further along in its transit. Philosophy is a subject I have a love/hate relationship with where I view it as being mostly critical thinking in terms of its intent which later became just a product which make it propaganda; whenever I delve into it I have to turn away because of the smell of a dumpster fire. Ancient philosophers are great in my book, but it devolves over time to nonsense. I’m also the annoying person who doesn’t care about who said/did what but what they did only caring about it’s usefulness. Foucault is popular right now and he’s just a planter of paranoia to me. I go by compatiblism which is awkward in astrology because it has different layers. Say, you want to adjust a behavior like start a new diet you’d have to consciously engage to change this which puts you against your biological fate; this can be explained astrologically as a square aspect so it’s not completely free will. Astrologically, you’re probably bound to signs and a potential of forked roads of fate. I started explaining synchronicities and world view learned from them and noticed it’s in the Abraham Hicks ideology, but it’s in my ideology that some are malefic which that one is just because it claims can wish yourself wealthy among other things. As mentioned with daimon’s, some may be beneficial to some while being necessarily malefic to others. Apparently Pluto is one of my daimon’s if synchronicity is factored in. Go figure! The chiron episode pointed its finger further at those septiles with Pluto where I ignored chiron. Gimbal is a large gyroscope and the green was the heart chakra which surprised me since that how I read into it. “Why green?” Kabbalah also.. 7th harmonic, can’t be read into literally. Wheel of death/rebirth, it is what it is. Hell to me would be coming up with astrology episodes especially being a teacher and author; expanding on these subjects would be fantastic. I’m noticing the astrologers I like the most are ones who kinda/sort of do that. I’ll officially put your book on my “to read” list.

[@Theconsciousoutkast]

Oh nevermind i see it! Wow you are still unmatched in your work ethic and content ❤

[@CatarinaAntunesYouTube]

Outstnding! Thank you

[@gh-nw7cn]

rad, ty for this distillation :) gotten this info in different pieces from HA:TSoF&F and other sources, and it's rly nice to have it all in one block. something i've been thinking about: a lot of astrologers i know of seem to nominally subscribe to astrology-as-clock but deploy the language of causation in practice. i definitely fall into that myself - talking about what the planets "want" for example. it would take a lot of rigor i think to talk about each planet as tho it only signified/acted as messenger... imagining a plotinus-like astrological practice that talks abt the generosity of malefics for telling truth of troubles... any contemporary folks y'all can think of that practice that way?

[@gh-nw7cn]

to be clear, i'm not anti-causation, i'm like causation agnostic i guess lol

[@Rawfogut]

This was everything 🔥🔥🔥

[@enriquefernandezm.9830]

This is a great podcast !! I have a question, which books would you recommend for an astrologer to understand the history and evolution of astrology?

[@Silvertestrun]

Ty

[@joshuadinero7711]

Thank you

[@martinwilliams9866]

Choice is predestined, predestination is chosen!

[@indiaburke9457]

Wouldn't the place to look for answers to your quests be in the Arts, and in particular Theater of Antiquity, the Classics ?

[@DSuggs-bm8mw]

Dr. Justin sledge!!🤩😍🤩😍

[@jennyd_1111]

I love this discussion so much! I wonder if astrology could actually hold the answer to these questions and thought streams. Since some people are predisposed to be stoic thinkers, while others tend to be more scientific, and others more spiritual. Could the answers lie in the birth charts themselves? Also, could the mundane astrology of the time have affected the philosophical tradition at the time?

[@ilcapitanoalexandr8698]

Chris please please in any video that is above 10min add time stamps please, please! Hope you're well, regards.

[@Theconsciousoutkast]

Hey Chris!!!! I want the book how can i purchase is a link in the description?

[@catoelder4696]

Bravo

[@nickylo2178]

Wow, amazing.

[@ceraway2276]

I find it so interesting when Chris speaks about the notion of Christianity becoming popularized due to the "freeing of fate" aspect because I grew up in an aggressively strict Christian home for the majority of my life. This shows within my own birth chart, Aries Saturn in 4th house. I also find the delusion of Christianity to be very Neptunian-like. Neptunian in regard to the illusion of accepting Christ into ones life to free them from fate and the aspect of Christ being compared to "God the father". To top it off the symbol of Jesus being the fish resembles the characteristics of Pisces. Pisces being closely related to Neptune or in the sense that Neptune does well in the sign of Pisces. It makes me wonder if around the time of Christianity if there was a heavy Neptune or Pisces influence.

[@TheCasualTaurus]

Jesus... Very dense, informative, and entertaining episode. Thank you both!

[@gloifti]

As a point of detail, Homeric Hymn 8 To Ares assigns to the god the third heaven and associates the seven planets with the "aethers" or heavens stratifying the cosmos.

[@cazimim3375]

I can see the future sometimes... and I was born knowing knowledge that I had not yet learned or relearned in this life-time

[@cazimim3375]

like statistics,math,science,reincarnation,astrology, etc

[@cazimim3375]

@@anyanoori9373 not dreams... Waking precognition/ clairvoyance sometimes / and very deep intuition/knowing

[@lukaszzakrzewski2670]

What our friend Plato is hiding in his texts? Does is it pivotal point? Does he is saying everything and not saying anything?

[@cazimim3375]

I'm the king of cazimi

[@susanmcdonald9088]

Very interesting. What role might a different sky have played, 10,000 years ago as some scientists & comparative mythologists are exploring now, still fringe, but fighting hard to break the academic ceiling Thunderbolts Project, their movie AKA Symbols of an Alien Sky, planetary orbit changes & plasma physics, so similar to cliff & cave art...so easy to see why the names of the gods (wandering stars) might be Venus/Ishtar and Mars etc. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmiocp-KmL95rbs kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3K4cmqOiJWHrKM Also, regarding fate, I'm surprised I'm not hearing discussion of the great Athenian invention, Dramatic Theatre! The human condition played out in their ancient myths, reworked, human dilemmas, like Oedipus, does everything he can (using his free will) to avoid his fate, but by doing so freely, causes it to be fulfilled, WOW! The irony! The tragic flaw hinged on some missing information, like ... Not knowing he was adopted! Maybe it's LITERATURE, not philosophy, where this discussion of fate vs free will is better explored, poetically, literarily. Maybe it's the masked dramatic players, the creator playwrites, & not philosophers, who grasp best, the paradoxes.

[@fortune_roses]

"We are *stardust* Billion year old carbon. We are *golden* Caught in the devil’s bargain. And we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden." (Joni Mitchell)

[@justine866]

but also chris YOUR MIND..... YOUR MIND

[@russellwalls4845]

Wonderful (as always)! Now I know why the early Christians were so opposed to Astrology! Here's some food for thought re: the point that you raised re: whether or not Astrology has a mechanism behind it (or is it simply the magic of Synchronicity?). Helena Roerich was the successor to Helena Blavatsky (& Helena's Successor is presently Zinovya Dushkova). Her major works are free at agniyoga.org. Go there, find the search page for all works, click "select all" and type in "astrology" and search. You will then have in your possession her unwritten book "Astrology:The Science of Cosmic Magnetism". For sure, you will find it food for thought. "Discovery awaits invention" said Harvard's great Historian of Psychology. I do believe Helena is telling us there is an energy flow component to Astrology. Whose name will be honored by the awaited invention? Maybe some young person from the flock of aspiring astrologers Chris keeps referring to. Zinovya has yet to touch on Astrology. Her major output, so far, has been under the 13 books under the rubric of "The Teachings of the Heart.". I hope Astrology will eventually follow sin a mother series. She writes in Russian, so we have to await the English translations.

[@shiseidosky]

😍 55:57

[@caseywhiteastr0cosm]

So good! 🤤🤤🤤

[@meredithr9824]

First?

[@TheAstrologyPodcast]

Congrats, you get a cookie 🍪