"At least that guy was good faith." Super Straight and Trans Rights Debate

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#transrights

[@ontopic1626]

Glad to see Vaush platforming more people with asthma, we really need the representation

[@Sueci]

Your name feels relevant

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Not sure if you needed transphobic representation.

[@kaeya8674]

💀💀💀💀💀

[@sownheard]

@@ImaginaryMdA No where talking about asma people. Him being transphobic is just sad.

[@drmobius2343]

@@ImaginaryMdA that simply means you won't play pretend with a beta male in caricature.

[@Mainimi]

I really hate when chat laughs at people conceding points or changing their minds. That's really the most positive outcome out of a debate and it means the person was arguing in good faith, laughing at them will only make them feel bad and alienate them. It's the typical internet leftist attitude that Vaush himself complains about.

[@ashtonshephard3852]

Agreed. We rarely see it, but it's the goal. I feel like a lot of us watch vaush for inspirations to arguments in our own life, with the intention to change minds

[@Rolando_Cueva]

Typical attitude in general. Doesn't matter if you're left or right. This is the reason there are so many fucking echo chambers.

[@tilly704]

Everyone can change their opinion, is their right!! No reason to laugh…

[@terrancejovan4825]

To be fair, I don't think this guy really changed any of his view points during or after this debate.. He kept trying to pivot the conversation to another topic everytime he felt he was losing the argument.. Or at least losing his argument.. And then at the very end of the debate pivoted right back to the topic of trans people that he claimed he conceded to before screaming Ass class is best class" into the mic and leaving..

[@IndigoGrey]

Dude sounded like he ran a marathon before the debate.

[@Nyanx4]

Plot twist- he was running a marathon DURING the debate.

[@benny399]

@@Nyanx4 I can imagine it

[@uncomfortabletruth5915]

I thought that too. Maybe he has some social anxiety.

[@IceFrosti]

that's anxiety

[@anmolt3840051]

Just anxiety

[@yoredeerleader]

I’m super gay. I am only sexually attracted to gay superheroes.

[@renaigh]

like Batman

[@hquq77q85]

Based

[@hquq77q85]

@@renaigh No Batman is super straight so he will bang a super transwoman in the future.

[@renaigh]

@@hquq77q85 oh you sweet summer child.

[@d3l3tes00n]

I prefer supervillians

[@basil5044]

I will definitely give this guy credit for sticking his neck out and admitting when he was wrong sometimes. Converting others for our cause takes time, and I’m glad he had a relatively safe environment to explore our cause.

[@garenthal9638]

basically his argument is he doesnt hate trans women but still having masculine features is a turn off for him and he doesnt want to get called transphobic for it

[@TayTayMakesBeats]

@@garenthal9638 Which is totally understandable imo. The biggest issue I have with the trans sphere isn't trans people, it's the people on the edges who act as if hesitancy/a lack of attraction or any criticism of any trans person ever is a crime against humanity. They're obviously not indicative of the whole and most of them aren't even trans but what they lack in numbers they make up for in social media presence. For a lot of people (myself included) that's their first exposure to the trans rights movement, which tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth hole. I think that's what made the super straight thing catch on, which as we know was exploited by actual bigots to paint a highly questionable picture of trans people as a whole. Same with all the "anti-SJW" shit. Snares a bunch of otherwise perfectly normal people into seeing the left as a collection of lunatics, priming them for radicalization.

[@MDHDH-iy7nm]

@@TayTayMakesBeats Yep I think its reasonable to say its only transphobic if you like someone and find out later that theyre trans, and then, and ONLY then does it change your mind about them, thats when id call it transphobia; im not attracted to masculine features either for the most part, but if it turned out someone i was attracted to (because they have traits of both) was trans, it wouldnt change my mind about them, youre attracted to who youre attracted to. Genital preference matters too whether we like it or not. Someone might not be into dicks, I dont think its fair to expect someone to be cool with that or else its transphobia; when their entire life theyve never even thought about dicks in that way. Its just kind of a very unfair expectation to have of said person

[@TayTayMakesBeats]

@@MDHDH-iy7nm That's where I find "____phobia" and starts to have some issues. Like you said if you're interested in someone until you find out they're trans because you feel weird about it (not taking into account genital preference) it's perfectly fair to call that transphobia. My issue comes with how universal the term is, like in the aforementioned case you wouldn't be a bad person for feeling that way, you just probably need to do a bit of reflecting about why you feel the way you do. You are transphobic but there isn't any malice there, it's a personal issue. At the same time transphobia applies to a lot of very malicious, heinous shit that happens all the time. Like everything prejudice exists on a spectrum, a lot of well meaning people end up holding harmful or outdated views for a variety of reasons. A lot of them would be more than willing to do some introspection and research to become more open and tolerant. I feel like the lack of distinction between that kind of prejudice/ignorance and more pronounced bigotry muddies the waters and makes people less likely to be open to learn and grow. What I saw a lot surrounding the "Super Straight" meme was (other than the nazis and super bigots) people like debate guy. Well meaning but ignorant, hesitant to accept social change and *really* scared of being labelled transphobic because of the connotations. I think most transphobes are something like that, I definitely was. Outright bigotry comes from that same fear and ignorance but I feel like if we somehow had a better way of differentiating active/malicious and passive prejudice people would be less hesitant to accept their faults and learn. Kind of off topic but this is one of many reasons why we need better education on these topics. If early on kids are taught the realities of race, LGBT people/issues etc the right wouldn't be able to so easily weaponize those blind spots to convince them that we're the crazy ones. Pair that with a system that teaches and promotes introspection, (actual) personal responsibility, open mindedness, empathy and humility instead of the "rugged individualism" and American exceptionalism. We could build an infinitely healthier society just by changing how we teach but that's some Communist Racist Theory and the right will fight tooth and nail to make sure people never even know what the civil war was over. It's depressing how easily the US (and in my case Canada) can make the world a better place AND BENEFIT FROM IT but choose not to. That's the main thing this debate made me think about. We're so close and yet so far.

[@jareddavulture58]

He doesn’t believe in what he was arguing for. He just wanted to talk to Vaush. He’s a fan.

[@rayflyers]

Vaush, I'm genuinely glad we've got conventionally masculine cis men like you defending us.

[@badsocks756]

not even joking

[@JXChannel]

This.

[@nikey2110]

Wait but he’s not cis

[@robertpendli340]

@@nikey2110 he is cis he's not straight

[@matthewkimber4513]

He's not straight but he is very much cis gendered.

[@beansfebreeze]

I'm like two minutes into this, but the kid sounds like he just ran a mile, saw me outside a subway, and started rambling incoherently

[@dezmondsunflowerviii8396]

It's really hard to listen to tbh

[@raak4070]

Anxiety do be like that

[@MasterofFates]

@@raak4070 true gotta give props for even attempting this conversation.

[@Charles-pf7zy]

Why r the crazy ones always at subway?

[@jessbian3385]

When the dude out-of-breath said “Ass class is best class” in the middle of his sentence, I literally looked at chat to see if they were going as hysterical as I was by the utter VIBES this man was putting out.

[@smileyp4535]

What does that mean?

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@smileyp4535 Assassination Classroom, it's an anime. Dude outed himself as a weeb.

[@smileyp4535]

@@FelisImpurrator I mean aren't we all? The biggest problem is he's the prime target for facism to add to their numbers, awkward, white, male and let down by capitalism and convinced the problem is people "below" him

[@Alpacnologia]

@@FelisImpurrator it's a fucking great anime though

[@jessbian3385]

@@FelisImpurrator tbh i didn’t even know that I just thought the way he exasperatedly interrupted himself was hilarious

[@Sound_Judgement]

So here’s the thing: I’m a straight cis guy. I am attracted to feminine physical traits, and I don’t find masculine physical traits attractive at all. Even women (cis or trans) who are consider conventionally beautiful I tend to find less attractive if they have anything like a masculine physical trait (squared shoulders, masculine jaw line, etc.). By all rights, I should be a legitimate example of a “super straight” person like these guys claim to be. But here’s the thing: *I have found some trans women attractive.* As it turns out, it’s possible for trans women to have really feminine features, and, just like the cis women I have found physically attractive, I found them physically attractive too. While I know this is an anecdote, I honestly cannot think of a plausible situation in which a person can undeniably say they are attracted to zero trans people, unless they have a bias against trans people to begin with. That’s to not even mention that this “super-straight” thing was literally just a joke sexuality to serve as a cheap “gotcha” to the “trans ideology” by people who don’t understand how gender theory or sexuality works, but do want to be transphobic.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Lowkey based. I'm actually the opposite, though... I'm only attracted sexually to people without penises. It took me a while to figure out why. Turns out I probably have dysphoria at a low enough level I rarely notice it. But facial features, figures, and all that? I lean toward androgyny but have found all kinds of people visually attractive, except people who are too far to either extreme of dimorphism. Like, pre-op trans guy, post-op trans girl, cis girl, intersex but not just a penis? Equal amounts yes. Does that make me the opposite of superstraight though, lmao

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

I honestly think most people have pretty vague aesthetic preferences and then they logic themselves into a conventional sexuality after that point. For a long time I thought something along the lines of "I would be bi, I just don't like dick" because of some subconscious association that dick=man, low-level self-loathing and clinging on to the vague idea of 'normality'. After reading that "barring social pressures, bisexuality is the norm" (don't quote me on this, I don't remember the source) and being more exposed to trans women (I grew up in the ass-end of the UK, anybody who might be trans moves away as soon as they can) the dick=man connection was broken and I felt like I could be bi and still be 'normal'. Now I like dicks both on and off men and I like men both with and without dicks. I imagine most people have weird, faulty logic like that at the core of their sexuality and there's almost certainly exceptions to everyone's stated sexuality. It's far more honest to say "I'm attracted to traits x, y and z" but sexuality can be a convenient shorthand.

[@therebel4630]

It was a pretty funny joke though.

[@lloroshastar6347]

Same, I'm straight. I do find some masculine traits in women attractive sometimes (what used to be described as tomboys) and I am rarely very attracted to very feminine women (though I sometimes am). I don't find transmen attractive at all, but if you take someone like Katy Montgomerie, she transitioned in her 20's. She is very hot, I'd be lucky to have a chance with her. There are some commonalities but there are no absolute truths when it comes to this subject. Perhaps the Conservative mindset is that they just can't accept certain things not going their way, it's the only explanation I can come up with because the reasons they give are trash.

[@digitalcyclone7218]

@@therebel4630 yeah it was funny from how bad it was lmao

[@oddjam]

The beginning: the converge of my empathy towards nervous callers and my hatred for transphobes.

[@Nerobyrne]

I don't remember everything that was said, but I didn't really get the feeling this person was transphobic, just confused about definitions

[@soph1111e]

@@Nerobyrne he compared seeing a trans person to the experience of uncanny valley. Literally describing his repulsion for trans people. That is practically the definition of transphobia

[@thecriticalone1783]

@@soph1111e true altho I think this guy doesn't seem as dug in on his transphobia as others. So maybe his mind will change

[@Nerobyrne]

@@soph1111e ah yeah you're right there

[@narutofan4545]

How does not being attracted to trans women make you a transphobe??

[@Whitepawprint]

"you used to be a baby, right?" is my absolute favourite response ever to a person worried about a trans woman's past.

[@zillafire101]

We Bionicle fans do not support Super Straights or Transphobia.

[@waffleandchicken]

Bionicle ally

[@ssssafia]

Damn the last part of this convo was just “I am transphobic and I am desperately doing everything I can to make my transphobia logical”

[@ASolidSnack]

I think that's a good sign, because at least he's trying to use logic. As long as he's dedicated to logic, the only possible conclusion he can eventually arrive at is that transphobia is irrational, it's just a question of how long he takes to get there.

[@murilocelebi]

cognitive dissonance, man, you either change positions to one that's at least closer to the truth, or you get even crazier to defend what you previously believed

[@nichollle]

he sounds like he has a crush on vaush and is super flustered about it.

[@stoyanpetkov3853]

I mean that's a mood but it's quite ironic given the "super straight" identity.

[@crocodilerock4662]

11:52 “It’s kinda hard to argue against that actually” - a man being introduced to a fact

[@MrHodoAstartes]

I mean, this was basically a child rambling the disjointed talking points they heard on the playground at an adult who helps them to sort through them.

[@johndavebobtim5049]

I kinda liked it because of that

[@kaipien9398]

What are the chances he calls himself “super straight” because he is scared of his family finding out he is mildly outside the realm of straight?

[@Arcian]

Fear of being ostracized from one's community over association with something that is outside the limits of acceptability within that community is the only reason why these people harbor such hatred towards LGBT people. They only fear the notion of "accidentally" dating a transwoman because they are terrified of the prospect of their anti-trans friends and family finding out about it.

[@General_Maximus]

Dat Part

[@narutofan4545]

It was a joke

[@YomiTheBeast]

I’m a pan guy who was pretty homophobic for this reason for a long time lol

[@TotalReaper5]

This guy just wants Vaush's approval to date trans women lmao

[@dannydevito7000]

Im at the beginning here, I feel bad for this kid. He's seems extremely nervous and socially awkward. I understand that Vaush is a Chad, with extreme Chad energy but damn kid calm down.

[@narutofan4545]

Vaush scares the weaker aspies

[@chrischickering1959]

Identifying with incel shit isn't gonna help his confidence any haha

[@stoyanpetkov3853]

Vaush's Chad-ness must be quite overwhelming to straight men.

[@Kekktye]

I think he used 6 paragraphs to basically say he has a genital preference Sure. Ok. You can do that. That's fine. So use the words genital preference, not the phrase "superstraight" that has been used to perpetuate transphobia and in itself is kinda invalidating of trans people

[@Uwrath]

@aa b Yea them damn leftists wanting to use accurate terms to describe things!

[@LandelRey]

@@Uwrath oh a poly flag. Glad to see you roaming these parts

[@ashergreen7363]

@aa b super straight is an accepted term for men not dating trans women because they are trans, a genital preference is more specific and not transphobic.

[@brutuslugo3969]

@@ashergreen7363 though some will claim it is transphobic

[@Diinytro]

@aa b How is it subjective?

[@Towlapeiwa]

This was like vintage late night Vaush content 10/10

[@benburke3015]

"Contrapoints should pay her editor more" "How much does she pay her editor?" "Oh I don't know" That's not how you make a point lol.

[@crackingbreznuts3343]

She doesn't have one.

[@benburke3015]

@@crackingbreznuts3343 Oh cool. So he was even more clueless than I thought he was, then.

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

lmaooo i scrolled to this comment as it was being said

[@Chatrbuug]

"I'm Super Straight, but maybe I'll change my mind." Almost as if Super Straight means nothing.

[@goodluckgorsky3413]

Pretty much, yea. Nobody respectable says “I’m gay, but maybe I’ll change your mind to be gay too”.

[@Chatrbuug]

@@goodluckgorsky3413 you are welcome to change my mind to gay 😜

[@narutofan4545]

Lamo most words don't really mean anyhring

[@magdalenaz9987]

Finally found my true zodiac sign: hotdog rising ⬆️

[@funkyfreshwizardry]

severely underrated comment

[@zorgnax]

🤣🤣🤣

[@TheNosnets]

the constant lip smacking(?) before they talk is making me want to commit Exit To Desktop

[@Nyanx4]

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's always like... Buddy. Go drink a glass of water and then come back. Your body clearly needs it.

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

Oh holy shit that’s making me want to die. Fuck lip smacking.

[@Allgloss312]

I have a job where i listen to people talk on the phone all day so stuff like this really gets to me 😭

[@TayTayMakesBeats]

Big ups debate guy! It's nice to see someone come to a debate in good faith, genuinely willing to learn. Most of the people that come up against Voosh are stuck in the Own The Libs™ mindset, with no desire to have any sort of constructive discourse. It's extremely rare that anyone admits they're wrong or ill-informed. I want people like this guy on our side.

[@roshnuwest7521]

Is it just me or is this guy just trying to convince himself he isn't attracted to trans women.

[@ronaldmexico1297]

I mean it might not make sense to you if you’re pansexual but if heterosexuality is a part of your identity then blurring the gender binary also impacts your identity which is a big deal.

[@andyrihn1]

@@ronaldmexico1297 it’s not a big deal if you just recognize that transwomen are women and some can be sexually attractive to you or not, just like any woman

[@joshkirby2372]

@@ronaldmexico1297 Straight, cis men are attracted to passing trans women. The 'finding out' doesn't stop that, it just causes them to feel uncomfortable as it's probably the first time they've thought about their sexuality.

[@ronaldmexico1297]

@@andyrihn1 It is a big deal for a heterosexual person to recognize that because most heterosexual people define their sexuality by genitals and would consider being with somebody who had their same genitals to be a contradiction of their identity. Whether they think same sex attraction is a bad thing or not it's how they define themselves and accepting trans women as women muddles these waters. If it weren't a big deal we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It's a transphobia that stems essentially from dysphoria: "I see myself as a man with a penis who dates women with vaginas, I am not a woman with a vagina and I do not date other men with penises. thats my identity, that's who I am." To then say to somebody "Well actually women can have penises and men can have vaginas" fundamentally alters that in a way that is uncomfortable to strictly heterosexual people in a way that Vaush as somebody who experiences bisexual attraction probably can't relate to. But these things really matter to people. We know this from gay conversion therapy and trans people themselves. People are very attached their identity. I think it's important to be empathetic to that.

[@ronaldmexico1297]

@@joshkirby2372 sure, but again, its a big deal to think about your sexuality for the first time, its not trivial. Everyone may be somewhat bisexual but most people are still very attached to binary sexual orientations like heterosexuality or homosexuality. These identities are important to how many people define themselves as people, in the case of homosexuality these are rights that were fought and died for. Transphobia IS bad but its still important to understand where it comes from. The reason a straight person might feel uncomfortable when finding out somebody is trans is that their worried its made them gay, which whether they are homophobic or not forces them to reevaluate their formerly binary sexuality as something in the spectrum of bisexuality. I just think its important that when these things are discussed sexual identity is treated with the same importance as gender identity and i dont think vaush is well equipped to understand its importance.

[@Corinoch]

This poor kid seems to be laboring under a very simple misapprehension, and just needs to be told that it's ok to say "Not interested" and walk away at any point in a sexual encounter if he finds someone unattractive for something.

[@theentiretyofhumanity8679]

What

[@AbonZel3]

The whole super straight argument really just boil down to the dude's comment that you'll always know in the back of your head that the trans woman used to be a man. These guys are so bothered by the idea of even possibly being gay that they can look at a beautiful trans woman and be deterred. That is super weird.

[@Nice-Lemonade]

So you’re basically saying to “just get over it”? Isn’t that the same thing that conversion therapy supporters say? You do realize that not everyone is pansexual, right?

[@bog4543]

the replies above completely missed the point of your comment lmfao

[@iceberg717]

This man’s got a decent head on his shoulders. Give him a year and he’ll be debating about whether he’s an anarco-syndicalist or a libertarian socialist

[@freezingdart]

Reminds me a lot of myself like 4 years ago.

[@TheSonicShoe]

he actually admitted when he made weak arguments, and accepted when he found common ground, and the world needs more people able to do that. this video restored a small crumb of my hope for the future of humanity.

[@bullymaguire1087]

Hope he goes with the former, but either would be super cool

[@ivcorr]

Nah socailissm suckkkkkkk

[@amellirizarry9503]

yeah he is on a good track also, wasn’t anarcho-syndicalism included under the umbrella of libertarian socialism? that’s the way i understood it

[@tihs135]

"The voice is generally..." *laughs in 'cis-"passing" ' mute* - You have no power here! Pretty sure the majority of transphobia is rooted in homophobia because of some men being terrified of anything 'gay'. That's the only reason I can think of for why the "they used to be a 'dude'" seems to be so common. If there wasn't such a fear and disgust in those men of being even remotely perceived as gay (regardless of whether something is gay or not), I wonder if there'd be anywhere near as much transphobia.

[@ln8496]

It can easily get kicked further down the line with this logic. Men's Homophobia could be rooted in misogyny because they're terrified of being treated how they treat women.

[@ELDENLORD89]

@@ln8496 Occam’s Razor: I just enjoy feminine traits and like the masculine to feminine dynamic. I wouldn’t have considered my past transphobia to be rooted in fear of gay people. I’m just one person though.

[@little_flitter]

I think on the flip side aswell, terfs usually have a lot of negative feelings towards men in general so are often exclusionary in that regard. So it still comes from a kind of philosophy of "man bad" but one is from a homophobia and one is from a sexism side

[@mycenaeangal9312]

@@ELDENLORD89 I’m going to invalidate you. That doesn’t have any explanatory power for the disgust many people exhibit. This isn’t occam’s razor this is just a reductive anecdote that may be a bit into denial.

[@astridposey]

I'm glad that you are proof that traditionally masculine traits don't need to be toxic to be there. 💜 Thank you Vaush. Also, anarchism is literally the OPPOSITE of fascism.

[@therebel4630]

Wait what? I know you are a Vaush fan but how is he not toxic? Have you seen some of his debates were he literally interrupts and tries to dominate every 5 seconds.

[@timekeeper2538]

@@therebel4630 Women do that too😅

[@Diinytro]

@@therebel4630 I don't think Vaush is a bad person, but, he can be a real asshole sometimes.

[@astridposey]

@@therebel4630 being an ass does not mean he's an example of toxic masculinity. in fact, it's one of the classical "masculine" traits. but it all depends on how and when it is used. is it being used to tell at your wife because you're just angry? that's toxic. Are you using that trait to care for and defend/protect others? that's positive masculinity. see, the difference is the protection part. nearly all traditionally masculine traits can be positive depending on context. Aragorn is a great example of this. yes, he kills a lot of people, but it's in the name of protecting those he cares about. and at the end of the day he doesn't think himself better than others. "No, my friends, you bow to no one."

[@ybom06yt38]

@@therebel4630 A lot of the time he debates people from the "louder = righter" school of thought, so he pretty much has to or else he'll never get a point out.

[@alexandredesouza3692]

*"Sexuality can be defined as what types of behavioural and appearance signifiers we're into."* Vaush confirms that Male/Femboy attraction is straighter than Male/Tomboy attraction.

[@goodluckgorsky3413]

Based

[@Nyanx4]

11:21 I'm honestly surprised the other person conceded this point instead of going on about how only women can fit into leggings or something...

[@IndigoGrey]

"All men are taller than all women." -Good ole Cspace

[@SA-mo3hq]

*Furiously flips through binder* SNEAKY LEFTIST DEBATE TACTICS!!

[@Nyanx4]

@@IndigoGrey "I can't fit into my wife's leggings, therefore nobody can."

[@SuperCrazy902]

Genuinely, it feels like he's someone who just had a bad start. If they're willing to listen or concede, you have a fighting chance. He's just young brainwashed. We might be able to pull him out yet

[@Nyanx4]

@@SuperCrazy902 That's the hope. He really didn't want to discuss anything Vaush could talk to him about or he wouldn't have spent the last half of the conversation rapidly changing topics... Hopefully he just keeps listening.

[@SwatZombie]

One thing I definitely know about this dude, he's not gonna lie

[@dudeman0401]

or hurt you, either

[@mycenaeangal9312]

Bionicle Avatar? Bet 20 dollars that dude is an egg and will regret this in like 5 years. Edit: 7 years

[@ariyellsalot8961]

Lol it's so true. Like the moment I heard the Bionicle avatar thing my egg sensors just 👀

[@derTangram]

Just being curious but what about bionicles is egg energy? Are bionicles a thing in transculture? Genuinely want to know

[@ariyellsalot8961]

@@derTangram it simply is

[@dirkdiggler2218]

Jesus Christ, someone get homie some oxygen. He sounds like he’s having a panic attack live on stream.

[@dirtyrigs8591]

hi I'm indigenous n from Canada ! Just wanted to go into what being two spirit is! IN MY TRIBE, I can't speak for others, but being two spirit jus means you were born with both male and female spirit . this would be people who were Trans , Gay, Bi , just anyone LGBT. we didn't have a word for being specifically transgender because ALL LGBT people were just called two spirit. trans people were a thing . AMAB people who did female dance/prayer or AFAB people who did male dance/prayer. there were also ceremony and I believe dances that were SPECIFICALLY for two spirit people only . so on this dudes last point , when he was like, "BUT THE TWO IN TWO SPIRIT" two didn't mean just male or female . it was a spectrum . it just meant u had both masculine and feminine spirits inside u. the only reason we no longer have those two spirit ceremony n dance, and why so many indigenous people are transphobic and stuff, IS DIRECTLY DUE TO COLONIZATION. this idea of gender being black n white/man vs woman is a colonizers ideology. two spirit people are very powerful and were always respected before colonization 💕

[@ayeshastaging103]

Ok nice to know

[@chillinsquirtle]

How accurate for a white person to misuse native culture

[@mechanomics2649]

Oh. I figured, and had heard others mention, that people that are non-binary would be considered two-spirit. I had no idea that it'd apply to LGBT+ people as a whole though. That's neat. I always love learning these kinds of things.

[@christiantabares6713]

To the OP, may I be so bold as to ask what tribe you are from? Of course, if you're not comfortable you do not have to answer.

[@senorpooI]

That sounds wonderful actually! We should just do that instead of having all these terms that scare white people for some reason.

[@Holobrine]

So this guy can’t shake the nagging thought that trans women were once men, so it makes him feel a little bit gay? Who’s gonna tell him that all women were once children?

[@Uwrath]

@aa b Nah

[@Uwrath]

@aa b I don’t care.

[@llGemini19]

@aa b Care to prove how transwomen are men?

[@theletterm1787]

@aa b gender and sex aren't the same thing

[@FelisImpurrator]

@aa b ah, perfectly smooth and circular reasoning, like your singular braincell.

[@carlogaytan7010]

The confusing thing about the Uncanny Valley thing is if it is Nature or Nurture. If it is Nature then it could be valid for cis people. On the other hand, could we somehow raise a child to not be afraid of Uncanny Images, idk kind of a cool thought.

[@anselravenhart4753]

The Uncanny Valley is actually a generational thing. Gen Z is less affected by it than millennials, millennials are less affected by it than Gen X, etc. So eventually, children simply will not be affected. Assuming our planet lasts that long, that is.

[@TaosoftheVoid]

Fun fact: the "valley" name comes from graphs that show a dip in it at a certain point, usually referring to what degree something resembles a certain living thing (I think usually a human) where it's harder for the brain to distinguish what it is for sure. The dip looks like a valley, hence the name uncanny valley!

[@jasonfenton8250]

@@TaosoftheVoid Yes, as something takes more and more human features it becomes more likeable. A smiley face is more likeable than a circle. But in between smiley face and human face there is a point where the image is uncanny and causes discomfort.

[@Robiness]

It's most certainly nurture thing. There is so many cartoons and such that my parents find terrifying but they seem fine to me. Even more so with my grandparents.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I don't experience it at all. But then again, as a child I was physically incapable of feeling the visceral sense of awe many people experience when they enter a church or some spiritual ritual or other, so I don't know if that's just my brain missing a piece.

[@witchflowers6942]

6:13 animals sexuality isn't actually like you described. it varies from species to species, some seemingly closer to us, some totally alien. you would be surprised. we massively underestimate their complexity.

[@witchflowers6942]

@Empty Eye yes I remember. I’m a whale fan so I usually just wildly gesture at the epic bromances we see in dolphins.

[@narutofan4545]

We're all just flesh automatons None of us has any real control

[@juniper3955]

It's rare to see someone defending a troll ideology in good-faith, and I think it restored my faith in humanity a little bit.

[@santiagomarin1882]

Honestly I kind of have hopes on this kid. His positions are really similar to the ones I had a couple months before accepting the validity of trans people (Also, funnily enough, realizing I'm bisexual), so maybe the right communities and spaces might change him, because he seemed really good faith, albeit confused

[@martinvannostrand8488]

I wanted to make a joke about how this guy is talking faster than Bean Shapeepo, but he slapped himself with the self-own first

[@lahmpp]

Sometimes I wish chat wasn't so harsh on callers. It was obvious he was just nervous.. at least he was good faith

[@notimestwo]

In the beginning I’m like, buddy, breathe, take a breath dude

[@Lanoira13]

Reminder: Trans people have always existed, yes even prior to surgeries and hormone treatments. As long as genders have been a thing, there have been people identifying as the one not socially corresponding to their sex or the gender expected of them. There have always been AMAB women who dressed like women/acted like women/went by feminine names and pronouns/filled or were expected to fill feminine roles/were recognized as women. There have always been AFAB men in the same way. And there have always been people who didn't fit in the categories of man or woman, and people who were fluid with such categories. None of this is new, you're not special, society is just getting better about accepting people and information is more available than ever.

[@Eldritch-Lemon]

I've been described by my mother to have child bearing hips. And it is halarious to me. It is now the main adjective I go by

[@ratpee5741]

the uncanny valley refers to the degree of resemblance between a non-human object and a human, transgender people don’t not look human u weirdo

[@deadeaded]

That's obviously not what they meant. Stop being bad faith.

[@deadeaded]

@@KALSKingdom I thought it was very obvious that they were using it as an analogy, not a literal description. I.e. they think trans women who don't quite pass trigger a psychological response similar to the uncanny valley response.

[@masondickerson9466]

Dangit, I wanted discourse, but all I got was void.

[@trigger_core]

he didn't even really fight back on his points smh

[@ksdtsubfil6840]

Turned to a weird hodgepodge of discourse slime soup when the super straights debate was nuked…

[@masondickerson9466]

I was talking about the comments section, but yeah.

[@Greatergood3]

@@masondickerson9466 Let people file in lol

[@trigger_core]

@@masondickerson9466 ooh pssh, highly doubt there would be on any vids in this channel

[@Ulfednar]

The whole conversation felt like a poorly edited highlight reel. xD

[@mechanomics2649]

Having watched the entire thing, this is the most apt description of what happened here that can be used.

[@Hjaulmandra_Kanathara]

No one is attracted to bone structure or skeletal frames…that’s just a left over concept from phrenology

[@mycenaeangal9312]

I don’t necessarily agree. It’s sorta a low level thing though. Like I’m attracted to things like high cheekbones in women or broad shoulders in men and there are multiple different ways to get there skeletal shape being only one. It definitely influences the things I’m attracted to though.

[@DaveTadros]

You can tell he was nervous cause he kept sucking his teeth lol but takes courage to go toe to toe with Vaush

[@JL-rj5vh]

What a king - big enough to recognise good arguments and be open to new ideas. If only more conservatives were like him.

[@classicallycommie6266]

14:14 it was literally started by fashies on 4chan

[@EternalDensity]

I used to think there was an 'uncanny valley' thing going on the first few times I saw trans women on youtube but now I think it was just unfamiliarity and ignorance. And my own dysphoria.

[@kaif-tube1692]

Guy just sounded confused about basically everything.

[@iliaskaramanis2884]

This guy sure was in a hurry to lose this debate. I get why he was out of breath for most of this.

[@smelly4498]

this kid reminds me of 13-15 year old me when i was just starting to leave the church and learn about politics. give him like a year and i bet he’ll be just fine.

[@NotAnExpertWitness]

"if I have to defend Hasan one more time I'm going to make him pay me" XD

[@MisterRorschach90]

“I think I might change my mind after this, but I don’t think so, I’m not sure” What?

[@mossgremlin9115]

Ok but as someone who’s gender is simply “no🧡”, if I was told that my gender expression made someone feel the UNCANNY VALLEY I would ride that gender high for the next year

[@doctor_who5203]

HAHAHA i love "no🧡"

[@gregothy9190]

Listening to Vaush as someone who is currently questioning his sexuality is very very euphoric

[@rumncoke76]

I know this dude has some dumb ideas, but he's honestly adorable

[@Kekktye]

I think there is something to be said about how genital preference and some elements of being brought up cis can impact sexual attraction for some straight and gay people At the same time, using an invalidating, transphobic as hell word like superstraight to signal that is the worst way to go about that, and the rampant transphobia around the whole thing prevents that conversation from being had in any context.

[@chillinsquirtle]

Its really ridiculous because these people who identify as super straight will likely never have that come up in a real situation. Just don't date trans people, they don't want to date you either.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I'm super-pan, I guess? Because I have like no internal concept of prescriptive gender roles. But I have a strong genital preference for the opposite set, on anyone... because apparently latent genital dysphoria affects that.

[@brutuslugo3969]

I think that people have been using "straight" as having a genital preference. It was a given that being "Hetero-sexual" meant being attracted to females now heterosexual is being used by the left as something completely unrelated to sex that people came up with "super straight"

[@chillinsquirtle]

@@brutuslugo3969 you don't seem very smart if you think that is what happened

[@brutuslugo3969]

@@chillinsquirtle has heterosexual (straight) not always implied a genital preference?

[@toxiicnekoo5967]

I didn't have many brain cells at this time, 10pm after 10 hours of work. what a chad

[@SteveScapesYT]

He laid out a bunch of premises with no conclusion. It feels like we don’t even know what’s being argued…Does he want transphobia to be acceptable? Does he want Trans women to not be equated to women? Does he want a bathroom bill? I dun even fucking know because he didn’t say- was great at the start when Vaush left him hanging waiting for it, but I think Vaush should have demanded it. Hard to listen when we don’t even know what the guy wants.

[@MinerJo1001]

There were a few other people like this that Vaush had, I think. Where someone calls in with some point straight from some Shapiro Crowder type and finds they can't defend them when someone can disagree with good facts and rhetoric. Kinda reminded me of Hunter Avallone and hopefully this person finds a way out of the alt right pipeline with this bad debate against Vaush at least.

[@SoftBoiledArt]

You're being CRAZY uncharitable

[@SSmotzer]

To quote the famous performer Sir Herschel Shmoikel Pinchas Yerucham Krustofsky: "What the hell was that?"

[@thewoollyviking5928]

Vaush apparently likes Bionicle, now I have another reason to love the man

[@niratheone3985]

I actually kind of like this guy, I feel like he was just led down the wrong path but he still admits when he’s wrong at the very least

[@llGemini19]

Ok like I get being flustered and nervous and all that, but this guy needs to take a break. Like, relax a bit, and tackle things one at a time. He literally just had a bunch of half thoughts jumbled together and it made it very incoherent a lot of the time.

[@AnimeGIFfy]

I swear to god, people are becoming biologists, because they want define social structures these days. The guy started talking about fukkin flesh and bones.

[@jonathankershner2508]

Excuse me sir, one of my dogs (neutered) exclusively likes boy dogs at the park, and the other dog (not neutered) likes any dog. Respect them!

[@tsims093]

Didn’t know we were supposed to do coke beforehand

[@aeonyx_cinereus]

this dude is trying so hard not to be attracted to trans people. hope this convo helped

[@crackhex2649]

I LOVE these super straight and trans debates, I find it super entertaining, and it can help me use these arguments too! ^-^

[@abbygee_mtf8328]

“The voice usually turns me off” well, I mean my voice is pretty femme. No one has ever called me on it

[@SindyxLotus]

When he said "voice" all I could think about was "yes, I too want to rip out my vocal chords."

[@astridposey]

also, it is possible for people to have genital...."preferences" for lack of a better word. for example: i can only really get on with the v, but i love cis guys and trans women too. i just can't bed them. 😅 if that makes sense.

[@TheSonicShoe]

I think what you're saying is that you're bi/panromantic, but not bi/pansexual. that is, you are romantically attracted to people regardless of sex or gender, but have a preference when it comes to sex partners. at least that's how I understood what you said.

[@astridposey]

@@TheSonicShoe yup. I'm pan romantic. and cupiosexual

[@ln8496]

Genital preferences are so normal. Ever heard of size queens? It is a bit weird how women don't murder men when they don't disclose that they're circumsized or not, isn't it now lol

[@astridposey]

@@ln8496 wtf? why?

[@Zarastro54]

This was incredibly rambling. Just a continuous stream of consciousness that switched to entirely different topics within a blink of an eye.

[@azazelaz999]

Behold the trembling male

[@truexenith8596]

Chat, chill tf out and stop being so cringe.

[@darkphoenix2]

This guy just wanted someone to talk to.

[@softenbysam]

This dude cannot finish a singular coherent thought or sentence, without stumbling over and starting on a new thought or statement.

[@andrju3916]

Only half of this was a debate about trans rights.

[@amadouagne3405]

Dude started with his best Ben Shapiro impression

[@averypatrick5279]

This guy legit goes on to a new topic every 5 minutes.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

Near the end... Does this guy really think that in premodern societies, gender roles weren't enforced? That men and women just naturally filtered into their roles with no coaching and no cultural pressure?

[@alliesakat]

I kinda feel bad for him here, anxiety's a bitch

[@gregothy9190]

I really appreciate the caller being open and reasonable

[@Grasspinks]

Bionicle is a trans egg meme. This “guy” may have some other confusion about gender identity…

[@mycenaeangal9312]

I'm not the only one who said it 🤣

[@tobiasboh3370]

Trueeee Well I'm pretty sure I'm not trans, but there sure are a lot of trans people in our community! Unfortunately also a lot of chuddy douchebags, but there's some well-moderated places where they get dunked on at least.

[@mildewedsponge5430]

where are these strong jawed, tall, deep voiced, broad shouldered women and can they crush my ribcage?

[@RayGunnerGaming]

why does it always seem to be the guys who are being "sarcastic" about liking famboys that end up coming out years later

[@mechanomics2649]

Honestly this seems to happen with a lot of things. People say and do things "sarcastically" or "ironically" until they aren't.

[@Froggsroxx]

About the skeleton thing, he's specifically talking about trans people who transition AFTER male puberty. In this context, yes they will have different skeletal structures than cis woman. People who go through female puberty get hips with a different shape in order to accommodate childbirth. You can identify male/female skeletons found in graves this way, along with bone density etc. It all depends whether you transition before/after puberty which is why puberty blockers are so important.

[@narutofan4545]

Not like it matters but your skelington is gonna be different regardless if you go through puberty. Obviously it'll be less 'masculine' but still

[@cool_monsters]

The "transitioning after puberty thing hmm hmm" totally not a fault of people like super straights and conservatives which block access to trans healthcare or trans healthcare information (or both) for trans youth who would transition earlier if they had the choice sure sure (respect to people who felt comfortable with their first puberty when they had the information and access of trans healthcare but the avoiding the wrong puberty is important for many yeah). I guess it is just frustrating that people use the transitioned after puberty arguement when people who had that puberty in informed consent form would not want to date a person which dislikes that and the rest would hate that person (most of the time, that dislike trait is correlated to conservatism, transmedicalism etc) for supporting the gatekeeping of youth trans healthcare. *voice and muscles etc yeah are because of puberty pretty much so it is an excuse/an effect of transphobic gatekeeping

[@Nelffia]

I haven't seen this much good faith in fucking years. Chat ain't shit for being mean here

[@davidmc984]

Ok im not joking you, this actually scares me that there are people having conversations like this on the same planet as me !!

[@YamakieHashiro]

I love that anytime that vaush engages in the topic he brought up, he IMMIDIETLY changes the topic again, its like he's embarrassed he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's trying to find any topics vaush will give on so he can be like "SEE WE AGRRE AGREE SO NOW YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH THIS TOO RIGHT?" idk that's just how it seems to me

[@chipdonovan1773]

About 6 minutes in Vaush makes the claim that "we (humans) have completely transcended" the machanics of sexuality in the animal kingdom. While I understand what he's driving at, and do believe we should shirk naturist fallicies where our moral and social codes are concerned, I think he's making the common mistake of overestimating the distance between humans and the rest of highly social animals. Yes, some animals conduct themselves in ways that are completely and utterly basal when compared to humans, but there are animals that display very complex and socially driven sexual behaviour. Bonobos and dolphins for instance, use sex as bonding tools and commonly engage in sex acts that have little or nothing to do with procreation. In fact, rather than strengthing the argument that sex ought to between 'male' and 'female', a close look at our relatives in the animal world reveals that those who appeal to the natural world in defence of 'traditional' sexual mores have little to no understanding of the world they call upon. Ironically enough, most species given close enough examination would wholly counter the claims made by such folk. I say this because I see this Homo-chauvanist pov quite alot and I feel that those faculties in which we truly do transcend the rest of the animal kingdom often obscure the ways in which there is a deep continuity. So lets not hold ourselves in such high regard and let us not underestimate our animalian cousins.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Based. Vaush's bias does tend to come out most heavily when it comes to these subjects. When the subject of nonhuman life comes up, he defaults to a humanity first position a lot, and when it comes to subjects like children (or robots for that matter), he defaults to moral intuition. I think that's more or less consistent with who he openly says he was - he talks about how he used to just be kind of an uncritical chud with terrible positions, but eventually tried to adopt more rational and utilitarian worldviews. Which, I mean, fair. People tend to struggle to shake their biases.

[@jonnystorms3310]

Bruh dolphins are messed up

[@Hubert_Cumberdale_]

@@jonnystorms3310 atleast they aren't orcas.

[@xXSpartan029Xx]

Wait a Bionicle discord logo and he;s NOT pro trans?!? I was under the impression that Bionicles were trans culture fella