Atheist Objections to Free Will | Trent Horn | Catholic Answers Focus

Does neuroscience, or any science, pose a challenge to believing human beings have free will? Trent Horn joins us for a discussion of today's fashionable denial of the fact of free will.
Transcript:
catholic.com/audio/atheist-ob...

[@Dannyboy0202]

I used my free will to like listen and subscribe to catholic answers 👍

[@filiusvivam4315]

If Free Will doesn’t exist, then a person can not be held accountable for his/her actions. Sounds like a convenient excuse to me to do whatever one wants.

[@Darksaga28]

Atheists must deny free will in oder to take God out of the picture.

[@shroomer8294]

That’s because you’re closed minded and don’t understand what people who don’t believe in free will actually believe in.

[@jimothynimajneb622]

I take great issue with this. It’s incredibly naive to think that with no free will or no god or whatever that people will just go around doing whatever the heck they want without fear of some consequence. It’s not in the best interest of anyone to act in this way, and if I have to explain why then idk what to tell you. I would much rather make decisions regarding my well being and the well being of others than to just do whatever I want and watch the world divulge into absolute chaos and anarchy

[@shroomer8294]

@@Darksaga28 Does God have freewill?

[@Darksaga28]

@@shroomer8294 yes

[@BigBroTejano]

I have never understood the at times fanatic hostility to the concept of free will from Atheists... it’s a entire concept focused on the idea that you as a individual are free to make your own choices without the puppet strings of a divine being who has predetermined everything.

[@OriginsofEternity]

They’re right to oppose it if they are materialists. There can be no free will without a supernatural cause. Very few people would disagree with that. Once one presumes a supernatural cause, the debate can move to a theological discussion about how much free will this supernatural cause affords to human beings

[@kazumakiryu157]

​@@OriginsofEternityI mean, at a quantum level, determinism breaks down. So, even as a materialist/naturalist, there are reasons to accept free will

[@OriginsofEternity]

@@kazumakiryu157 that’s a good point. Though, quantum mechanics and it’s implications are still very debated and inconclusive. But they do present a possibility for “non-determinism” or randomness.

[@kazumakiryu157]

@@OriginsofEternity yep. The beauty of science is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. The book of nature is amazing, don't get me wrong, and I stand in awe and wonder when contemplating it, but we should probably stick to philosophical proofs when possible(for the existence of God), since those are, ironically, more definite.

[@OriginsofEternity]

@@kazumakiryu157 I agree, though I don’t see the irony. Philosophy is more reason-based than science, as science is basically the observation and codification of patterns

[@halleylujah247]

Sy being snarky still sounds like he is being nice😄😉.

[@ericleming1734]

God bless you and stay safe Halley lujah’s •.

[@JosePerez-is6nn]

You're kinda funny, I agree 😊

[@user-il5hy5tr5z]

If it weren't for his cringy sense of humor he would be nothing more than a marble rolling around in a glass jar. He is an unimportant individual whom has nothing important to say.

[@wayne9635]

How would you know if anything is right or wrong? Your thoughts are determined. How do explain consciousness? How would you know you didn’t have free will. That thought is determined

[@ironymatt]

With atheism, holiness is of the Swiss cheese variety

[@thereconvertedcatholic529]

Not to be too salty, but I wonder, well, at one point a neuroscientist will also be included in the conversation. That is not a shameless plug to ask me -- I would be happy to refer my even more qualified peers to the discussion. In the meantime, while Trent does a good job of summarizing studies related to this arena, as well as pointing out flaws in atheist arguments -- the conversation was too muddied with philosophy (which was a bulk of the discussion anyway). It is first important that we all get our definition down about "neuroscience" and understand the biomechanics of it. Any speculation beyond how neurons, neurochemistry, brain hemispheres, and the senses function is just that -- speculation. It's the same problem with the many atheists who oversimplify consciousness. Let's all first establish how exactly the brain works before possibly -- and I stress the word "possibly" -- linking neuroscience to philosophical debates. For example, our senses are crucially KEY to just about all information the brain processes. Therefore, it is not so simple to leap to "the brain already made the choice.." idea that atheists espouse. Lastly, the studies mentioned fall more into behaviorism and a bit into cognitive psychology. Hope none of that sounded arrogant -- I just want the conversation to be as productive and beneficial as possible.

[@jonaha502]

I dont think neuroscientists have any consensus on free will. Neither do physicists or philosophers. Benjamin tried was a neuroscientist who tried to disprove free will, but his research was found to be pretty inconclusive. Quantum mechanics also seem to show that reality is not determinist at the fundamental level

[@thereconvertedcatholic529]

@@jonaha502 That is exactly part of my point :-)

[@dannielpayne3045]

Hey, St. Paul! I saw your video on neuroscience and religion the other day. It was great, although I would like to ask you to say more about your experience, having a degree in something similar to neuroscience, why you are on the free-will spectrum and how that ended up in meeting God. It would be fantastic to see that for many of us who are used to the idea of scientists being unable to believe in God. Anyways, thank you once more for helping all of us.

[@traceygallant4876]

I had a thought while watching this video...I wondered if this can relate to the biblical idea of conforming your will to God's will vs. conforming your will to the world. One is eternal, all knowing, all powerful, and all good and the other is finite, fallen and deterministic! It's not hard to see which is preferable...well, for me at least. Though it's easier said then done. I wonder if all the traditions, Sacraments, sacramentals, etc of Catholicism is simply to help us to conform our will to God's will...to live in the world but not of it. We can't avoid exercising our will but I believe free will basically boils down to this choice. Choosing the world is easy but ultimately ends in eternal death ... choosing God is a daily battle but ultimately ends in eternal life! I know what I'm choosing!

[@jhoughjr1]

interesting interpretation of that experiment.

[@marvalice3455]

my biggest issue with glen lebet test, is that my brain is also me. even if my subconscious *really is* what makes the decision, that's still me. the fact that this part of myself is not very talkative doesn't make it a clockwork automaton. just like I'm cranky in the morning and friendly in the afternoon, that doesn't mean they aren't both me, and likewise, even if my conscience mind isn't sure why my subconscious did something, and so makes up an explanation, they are still both me. I have a wounded nature. the fact that I have trouble talking to myself, and different parts of me seem like they don't know what eachother is doing is just a symptom of this.

[@tomasveras2175]

thanks

[@dynamic9016]

Very interesting.

[@thomism1016]

Cy, I just LOVE your intro 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@ericleming1734]

Thank you Trent Horn for answering and, explaining the objections to Free Will. God bless you Thomism 101 •.

[@MrGoodwell]

Related to this episode. Maybe an episode on the many-worlds hypothesis?

[@beliciamathias]

It can be said that our freedom is perverted by sin but we have a free choice to turn to God to repair it (our conscience tells us to)..and when we make our will the Lord's will we are truly free..

[@BrotherJTan]

The moment one can express his thoughts, his words, his actions, his habits and his destinations then these are the signs of man's Free Will. The moment that one has expressed in one belief and the other one in another second belief, that is already the expressions of man's Free Will. We just need to sit down, think and relax for us to see it slowly and more clearly. Thanks everyone ! God Bless Everyone !

[@gabrielteo3636]

Trent didn't mention the determinism/randomness problem with Libertarian Free Will.

[@jimmymaria1964]

I'd love to hear a brief talk/synopsis/dialogue on the intersection of Human free will and God's sovereignty-the moral side of the free will question. Is the fact that there are natural or moral consequences an inherent obstacle to "true" freedom? I know personally that true freedom is the freedom of excellence, but my secular humanist friend contends that the conditions and qualifiers of that view of freedom damage the neutrality and freeness of free will. Then furthermore, if the fact that there are rules at all doesn't damage our free will, where's the sweet spot between God's foreknowledge and predestination?

[@Big_Steve11]

I'd say look into some material by William Lane Craig, I know he's done a lot on that

[@tommore3263]

Nice discussion guys. And you didn't have to do it. ;-)

[@cowboymachito]

ok 26:14 you say you cannot bring up a sweeping claim that you cannot have free will etc etc. but what if that free will decision was based on something else, example the peanut butter I want is expensive so I'll settle for the cheap one but I really want the expensive one? If we had a fully free will making capacity, regardless of price I want the expensive peanut butter. My free will has been influenced beforehand and therefore cannot be my free will? My free will is based on a "something" else factor which made me take the decision.

[@ironymatt]

Free will ≠ get whatever one wants without any effort. Simply the fact you can make a choice between cheap or expensive peanut butter shows you have a will that's capable of freely choosing

[@cowboymachito]

Thank you.

[@paulnejtek6588]

13:40 huh? Yes, it does! Imprisonment of criminals is justified (without free will) on the purely utilitarian grounds of the 3 OTHER major punitive justifications. 1. Incapacitation of a criminal 2. Deterrence of the criminal prior to the crime and deterrence of other would-be criminals after the fact 3. Rehabilitation of the criminal, including arguably for yheir good. This has been coverred at length by a number of legal philosophers

[@bruh-dg5yw]

Yet utilitarianism cannot be justified in its own paradigm.

[@paulnejtek6588]

@@bruh-dg5yw hmmm. Perhaps. How so?

[@Raadpensionaris]

Wait, so Trents argument is: I don't like the reality of a life without free will, so free will must exist?

[@streamscreen]

Mary mother of God has perfect freedom but could never sin,we humans have a fallen free human will which is weak and sins,and needs rescuing,thus is always a mitigating situation,but Christ brings real free will!

[@losttribe3001]

Forgive my ignorance about your religion. I honestly am wanting to learn something I do not know; do Catholics believe that God knows everything that has and will happen? Past, present and future?

[@losttribe3001]

Im hoping for an answer here in the comments. Thanks!

[@frankiecampos8909]

@@losttribe3001 Yes

[@losttribe3001]

@@frankiecampos8909 Thanks. So how could there be free will if God knows what will happen? It’s already predetermined. And God will punish us for something he already knows will happen? So then what’s the point?

[@rollasix7238]

God is outside of time, eternal. "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy" (CCC 600). Therefore, just like me watching you sit down on a chair doesn't mean I caused you to do it, God seeing you do things doesn't mean He is causing you to do them. God sees everything in an eternal "now", all of time is before Him, so it is Him watching you do things in the present and not causing you to do them.

[@losttribe3001]

@@rollasix7238 How do you know that? Do you know what God experiences? What his “life” is like?

[@jonrendell]

You can't choose to like something you don't like

[@Peterwhitlock]

yes i have to choose foods all the time i can't afford to buy...and a lot of other things...why do YOu buy one thing to budget and not the best ONLY? what freedom have you to choose other than what is chosen for you by limitations? WHERE is your yard you tree your proof of being FREE as own part of the planet YOU CHOSE and no one said you can't...that was stolen from you so you be slaved and to boot slaved to DEBT via TEMPTATION vanity greed and impulse ignorance of buying then not even need or want all = slaves that think act and live and die always slaved and not understanding it to the point they lie they are free.

[@shroomer8294]

Simple. Understandable. Effective. A great point.

[@BigFARTman89GoColts]

Love this

[@paulnejtek6588]

23:23 inadvertently arguing AGAINST free will. WEIGHING reasons? Of course. A cost-benefit analysis. But what gives the different reasons their weight in the first place? Your brain? Your DNA? Your immaterial soul? Something you didn't choose. As Schopenhauer said "man can do as he wills, he cannot will as he wills."

[@HypsSanctuary]

I think what Trent is describing here is the important and obvious distinction between subconscious, habitual behaviors which do not take into account rationality and reasoning based on objective logical and moral principals, and decisions we make which are conscious and factor in multiple variables which we are completely free to take into consideration and choose to act on freely. What gives certain options their ‘weight’ is based on multiple different rationales which we as sentient and rational beings can compare in order to make a decision.

[@BombalurinaAI]

I'm an atheist and the idea of free will really isn't a concern of mine. The way I look at it is : I can either be a pilot or a passenger of this car. Doesn't matter, just enjoy the ride.

[@Drew-pw6nw]

You are either a pilot or a passenger. But if you're a pilot, you can't just enjoy the ride. You would have a moral responsibility to fly a plane well. You should be very certain that you are not a pilot, before you sit back and enjoy the ride.

[@BombalurinaAI]

@@Drew-pw6nw My only concern then is to not crash, not wait till the gas runs out for some myth of infinite gas after I crash and burn.

[@Drew-pw6nw]

@@BombalurinaAI The christian hope isn't that the plane won't crash, it's that there's a safe place to land beyond the horizon and if we fly in the right direction, we can reach it. An atheist might say there is nowhere to land, this flight is all you have, fly however you want as long as you don't ruin anyone else's flight. I can't prove that there's a place to land beyond the horizon, but there is reason to believe there is.

[@BombalurinaAI]

@@Drew-pw6nw If you can't prove it exists, why is there a good reason to believe it exists?

[@Drew-pw6nw]

@@BombalurinaAI Reasons include: -We have a compass that points in the general direction. (Morality) -Our planes have landing gear, indicating that they are meant for landing. (desires that can't be satisfied in this life) -The senario of flying in an airplane can't explain itself. (Contingency) -The fact that we are pilots, not passengers, implies that we are meant to fly (purpose of freewill) -The plane must have been built by someone (intelligent design) -A plane has come from beyond the horizon and claims that there is a place to land. (Jesus) -We have a map explaining how to get there. (Scripture) Am I rational to have hope that this place exists? Can you prove that there isn't a place beyond the horizon to land?

[@lucidlocomotive2014]

Trent I would love to see you DEBATE TJump. I know you had a discussion with him but an actual debate would be amazing

[@shroomer8294]

I’d love to see these guys debate Matt from the atheist experience.

[@springinfialta106]

So I meant to vote for one guy and ended up voting for another. That could never happen, especially not here in America.

[@streamscreen]

Christ brings free will which is different from human free will which is usually very limited,and not very free.

[@Dudeswagmaster]

People who don't believe in free will should not work in law.

[@interestingreligion5204]

Is there any point in having sport's or teams jockeying for something when it's already been decided.

[@jhoughjr1]

often people who dont believe in free will believe its ok because we can pretend we have it anyway. Its a weird position.

[@germanvazquez885]

Yes bucs will win next sb

[@jhoughjr1]

this should be good. I still wonder if free will exists. Anyone interested should read Free Will by Sam Harris.

[@Kitiwake]

I don't read lightweights.

[@rjskeptic5273]

Oh, the confirmation bias.