Revisiting on Trent Horn

We got into Trent Horn’s presentation on church fathers from 2019, going into some of the history of debates with Catholic Answers going back to 1990
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[@Bibliotechno]

I don't know where you meet all these Roman Catholics who know anything. I worked for years in a 90% RC area and very, very few knew anything in detail, in fact some say *I know the church teaches that, but I don't agree* But they seem to fear it, like an insurance risk issue.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@chasbrewer5705]

@@mitchellc4 Matthew 16 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. “ the interesting part about this passage is that Christ says the gates of hell will not prevail against his church this means that the church that Christ established will exist throughout all of time meaning in order for your belief system to be correct you must find it all the way through history our else then you are not apart of the church which Christ established. Meaning that if the trinity is wrong and your view of God is correct then you must find it all throughout history in order for it to be right. Our else you are not apart of the church which Christ established. This means you must find groups all throughout history that agree with you because if you are apart of the church that Christ established and his church will never disappear then your belief system must be all throughout history.

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@mitchellc4 "if you wish to enter into life, then keep the commandments ", ( Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:28). Jesus Christ teaches He is God along with His Eternal Father! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@mitchellc4]

@@matthewbroderick8756 Jesus has a God Who is Jesus repeatedly referring to as “my God”? Rev 3 12 He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. Who is Peter and Paul referring to as “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”? Rom 15 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 2 Cor 11 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie. Eph 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1 Pet 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@mitchellc4 Jesus is GOD, along with His Eternal Father! Jesus Christ teaches He is Lord of the Sabbath as God alone is, and Jesus Christ teaches He is Greater than the Temple, as God alone is, ( Matthew 12:6-8). Indeed, Jesus Christ teaches He is the Divine Bridegroom, as God alone is, (Mark 2:19), as Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word, and the Word was WITH GOD,and THE WORD WAS GOD, ( John 1:1) . Peace always in the One Triune God, Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit

[@jameswr1958]

I would rather be deep in Scripture and Reformed !

[@Wgaither1]

Me too

[@reformedcatholic457]

You can also be Reformed with the support of the fathers as well, to show your interpretation or doctrine has support in Church history.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@danviccaro3920]

Even though sola scripture is easily disputed by scripture?

[@danviccaro3920]

@@reformedcatholic457 the church fathers do not show any support to the reform it wasn’t invented there was no reformation.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

It's important to note that Newman said that WHILE an Anglican (he did not consider Anglicanism to be Protestant), and he was specifically referring to the liberal Protestantism in England at the time. That wasn't a line about how great Romanism is, or anything. Also, I'm not particularly convinced that Newman was a "brilliant mind". I find him "clever", and little more.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

@Weston S I would recommend we not call them "Catholic". As historic Protestants, we are Catholic.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

@Weston S agreed. My study of Church History cemented me in rejecting the Papacy as understood by Trent and Vatican I.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

@Weston S one of many, many reasons for me. God bless you as well!!!

[@thepalegalilean]

@Weston S I quote that all the time in I am well aware he was protestant. And he was correct. Cardinal Newman understood that the doctrines that begin and end protestantism, Simply didn't exist before the 16th century. Also he converted to Catholicism. So he in a likelihood was very aware of the position he was in by being Anglican. Because Anglicanism has much historical credibility as the rest of its protestant counterparts. Ultimately protestantism lives and dies on the issue of its 2 foundational doctrines being true. And neither of them are.

[@thepalegalilean]

@Weston S That's incredibly stupid. If I can't quote Cardinal Newman when hes absolutely right about something because hes a protestant. Then I can't cite anything Albert Einstein says because hes a Jew. That is so stupid upon so many levels. Furthermore the development hypothesis didn't come from the Cardinal Newman. You could see this well before papal infallibility. The confession of penance for instance has changed drastically since Christ instituted it. For well over a 1000 years so penance was done once at the end of a man's life. In the 11th century this was changed to every week. So the doctrine drastically changed in the 11th century and absolutely no one had a problem with it. Furthermore papal infallibility has been demonstrated throughout history. It's not just something that suddenly needed an idea of development. It alongside penance, baptism And many other dogmas had always been changing, yet never facing perversion. And you do know and are aware of the 2 doctrines. They are sola scriptura and sola fide. These 2 doctrines form the beginning and end of protestantism. And they absolutely do not exist in the early church. I can point to the early church and identify the origins of all of the Catholic dogma. But literally no one in the early church at any point had ever heard of the doctrines that are fundamental to protestantism. It's actually really hilarious that people like James white accuse and laugh at catholics for believing in a historical things when the very foundation of their faith in and of itself simply didn't exist at the time of Christ until 15 centuries after. BTW for your information, Deformed Christianity is nothing more than determinism with extra steps.

[@mariateresa9965]

"Conversion never happens in the head, it is always in the heart."BVM🙏🙏🙏

[@markequila9436]

Dr.white please upload your debate with Han and Matatix please

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@1littlefish]

Can anyone recommend a church history series or church history channel on KZbin that James White would approve of? Any info will be appreciated.

[@marlonbrandon1604]

I would think Ryan Reeves channel

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@maehabes4097]

Afraid it would be "too Catholic"?

[@1littlefish]

@@marlonbrandon1604 thank you, I also found a 70ish part series that James White taught on sermon audio. It was very good.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@maehabes4097 no. Afraid it would be too “rubbish”.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

I work with Catholics and I've noticed something interesting. Whenever discussing theology I rarely get verses, I rarely get exegesis. I ask for Biblical proof about Mary's ascension into Heaven, or her perpetual virginity or papal infallibility. All I ever get is either rhetoric about 1500 years couldn't have been wrong, or that the early church fathers affirmed the Eucharist.

[@retrograd332]

That's because they know scripture doesn't support their beliefs. That is why they are forced to appeal to the pope and tradition and must deny sola scriptura.

[@danielomitted1867]

Pretty much. Everytime ive had to actually discuss scripture it becomes a very one sided debate. Thats why they prefer history. Because history can be whatever you want it to be

[@thepalegalilean]

Then your issue is that you are expecting it to come from scripture. God doesn't just speak to us through holy writ. God uses many different mediums to communicate his revelations. Ironically enough biblical literacy would actually reveal this. So the reason catholics do not respond to those particular doctrines with biblical scripture, Is because you are trying to apply a standard to God's revelation that god has no interest in meeting.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@danielomitted1867 I mean no offence when I say this, But that literally the stupidest thing I ever heard. If history can mean whatever you want it to mean, Then there is nothing that you will ever know for certain. Jesus wasn't a historical person, He was just an icon of Jewish revivalism taken to the nth degree. So while you might want to criticise catholics for having a lack of an argument from the scriptures, Taking your approach also chops you away at the ankles considering that The Bible itself also is the work of historic context.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@retrograd332 Not at all. We deny sola scriptura because The Bible never teaches it. And it's the same with sola fide. In fact I would go as far to say there is not a single distinct protestant doctrine found anywhere within the 1st 15 centuries of the Christian church. That's why Cardinal Newman said what he did. And he was right. Protestantism has as much to do with historical Christianity as America does with the stone age.

[@jamessheffield4173]

Let God inspired Scripture decide [1] Basil the Great, , Letter 189 ()To Eustathius the Physician.

[@jamessheffield4173]

@Myopia His point was when traditions differ. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@jamessheffield4173]

@Phil Andrew Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth." Notice what decides

[@jamessheffield4173]

@Phil Andrew The Greek Orthodox, Assyrian, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic, Mar Thoma, Georgian, Arminian, Church of Rome, Anglican, Ethiopian. Anglican, Protestants, and others have different customs. traditions so let Divine Scripture decide. Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

[@jamessheffield4173]

@UCxuWsWdJW0EFUadOQCRWNXw While there are other guides, as an Anglican tradition and reason come to mind only Scripture is infallible. Isaiah 34:16 16Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, ...

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

I would less to say "arrogant" and would rather to say "pretentious". I'm not saying I'm right about this; perhaps "arrogance" is better. I'll have to ponder the arrogance and pretentiousness of Rome more deeply.

[@joeythemonk007]

Spending more time attacking people and putting them down seems to give some pleasure indeed. The real question is not whether you can win arguments. The question is whether you follow Christ's will for His followers. Whether you are look at the Lord on the last day and say that you have put Him first before yourself.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@michaelkarimian7538]

Truly golden words! In all honesty I believe that Calvinist’s and Mulinist debate over pre destination vs free will is a waste of time as to claim one is better than the other is to claim to know the mind of God. However no one can know his thoughts. As long as one wins a person to Christ then the ultimate goal is achieved.

[@jamessheffield4173]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[@matthewbroderick8756]

James, "Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but only those who DO THE WILL of My Heavenly Father ", ( Matthew 7:21). Paul warns baptized Christians who break the commandments willfully and do not repent, they shall NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM. ( Galatians 5:29,20,21, Ephesians 5:5,6, Romans 11:22). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@jamessheffield4173]

@@matthewbroderick8756 You didn't quote "believe in thine heart " e.g. if someone says there is buried treasure on an island and doesn't go to the island to dig up the treasure., methinks he doesn't really believe. Pax Christi.

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@jamessheffield4173 Ww must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and perservere to the end to be saved as Jesus Christ and His Most precious Blood

[@jamessheffield4173]

@@matthewbroderick8756 The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel by C.F.W. Walther

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@jamessheffield4173 "it is by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE THAT WE ARE JUSTIFIED ", ( James 2:24, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 25:35-42), for even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not Love, it is useless!. ( 1 Corinthians 13:2). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@briankregg6329]

The gospel is irrelevant to James White

[@swoosh1mil]

What was that?!? Dr. White starts with Trent Horn, then gets nostalgic, climbs into a time machine and ends with Gerry Matticks??? That's his rebuttal???👎👎👎

[@markwilson1724]

Jesus Saves!! The Gospel. The Good news that Salvation is of the Lord.. Acts 4:19 Repent therefore, and turn back than your sins may be blotted out. Faith that is through JESUS. Acts 4:12 And there is Salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which We Must Be Saved ❤ Isaiah 55:6-7 6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon👈👈👈 Amen ❤ 🙏 ✝️🔥

[@GordonGartrell27]

Trent Horn is sharp. I'm not a Catholic, but I have a ton of respect for Horn and many other Catholic apologists who good work in leading Calvinists away from error. 👌✌

[@duckymomo7935]

I mean there aren’t many good catholic apologists or scholars to begin with

[@palabraviva5840]

Thank God for James White… I totally disagree with Calvinism but totally disagree with the RCC and seems like few evangelical Christian’s know what the RCC really believes and teaches… Love how James White knows church history and can call them out on it.

[@matthewbroderick8756]

Trent Horn won the debate hands down! Paul warns baptized Christians who break the commandments willfully and do not repent, they shall NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM. ( Galatians 5:19-20,21, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26, Ephesians 5:5,6). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@Vae07]

Ah shut up😜

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@Vae07 Such a sore loser!😪 I love you anyway! you are in my prayers as you journey toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@Vae07]

@@matthewbroderick8756 don’t worry about praying for me I’m already saved as a seperated brethren/brother according to your doctrines😀. You’ll probably need to go look that one up.

[@matthewbroderick8756]

@@Vae07 We all are saved, provided we cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and perservere to the end as Jesus Christ and His Apostles teach! You are Still in my prayers as you journey toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink

[@danviccaro3920]

@@Vae07 great come back lol no class but when you have no truth you get comments like shut up

[@emilesturt3377]

White got schooled.

[@KristiLEvans1]

By whom? Lol

[@OkieAllDay]

Not much to do with Trent Horn, but a lot to do with talking crap on Scott Hahn and Gerry Matatics

[@matthewlipsey1733]

Crap? Have you read Rome Sweet Home? That was crap.

[@yeshua64]

The Catholic church is THE CHURCH. This is not controversial.

[@joshhigdon4951]

Much like your Christ centered name.

[@shooterdownunder]

You obviously don't talk to enough people to realise just how arrogant that statement

[@aadschram5877]

Yep, Jesus founded just one Church that gave us the bible.

[@dozo51]

@@shooterdownunder More arrogant than James White?

[@shooterdownunder]

@@dozo51 in what way

[@kentfink9509]

I'm so exhausted with today's church leadership gushing about early church fathers. Why does everyone deify the early church fathers? I think we have a better understanding of the Bible today. The early church fathers were trying to figure out the church age, often shooting the dark. They really weren't that amazing. Hardly idols.

[@alexjurado6029]

A better understanding of the Bible? The earliest Church Fathers were students of Christ’s Apostles, a couple of hundred of years before the Bible was even canonized. The Early Church Fathers received the Deposit of Faith directly from the Apostles. That’s why they’re so important. They give us insight into the early Church. And for any Christian to say that they weren’t that amazing is lunacy. It’s our heritage. It helps us know the truth. And, yes, the early Church Fathers were all Catholic. Because Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, and the Church Fathers are proof of that.

[@kentfink9509]

@@alexjurado6029 cool story

[@retrograd332]

@@alexjurado6029 this video and many others show you are false. Also though, catholic is not equal to Roman catholic. The catholic church is all those that put their faith in Christ alone for salvation. The invisible church, the elect of God. And friend, if your faith is in rituals and sacraments to merit your salvation, you are not in the catholic church.

[@Bibliotechno]

@@retrograd332 Catholic, Evangelical and Reformed.

[@joshhigdon4951]

They kept orthodoxy in check. You're right about more knowledge now, but we wouldn't be here without them. The 1st century church fathers learned directly from the apostles. That says a lot more about what you are making claims about. I would bet you that John the Revelator knew more, and taught more sound, than any modern day scholar.