Is Melee Combat WEAK in 10th Edition? Combat Phase Nerfs and Melee Power Levels Discussed

[@dmitrykhvostik5975]

Meele unit has to: - Get very close enough to the enemy and not die in process - Pass a charge Roll and endure overwatch sometimes - Make attacks - Endure all the enemy's army dakka if charged enemy unit was destroyed, fell back or failed charge roll Ranged unit meanwhile: - Pick the visible enemy in range - Make attacks IMO, it doesn't feel fair in most of the time. Meele guys have to do much more to be effective on table and quality/quantuty of meele attacks comparing to ranged ones usually not worth it

[@mellowfellow14]

+ We can now get overwatched in the MOVE AND CHARGE phases, just to make it impossible for light melee infantry (see bloodletters) to get into combat witht the prevelance of flamers in this ed.

[@evgenijvalamin6473]

@@mellowfellow14 You overwatch only one per turn. Not one per phase.

[@tajj7]

Which would be fine if they were points costed accordingly and had strong alpha strike ability, it would be a risk/reward thing but they are not and they are too expensive, especially jump troops who need that movement to get into combat, they get punished even more for that. Meanwhile you have like a Gladiator Lancer that has high toughness, good armour, lots of wounds and can comfortably do about 8-10 wounds to any other vehicle or monster, whilst having something like 10-12 attacks of various strengths that can chew through infantry and it's 145 points, but you have to pay 205 points for 5 Terminators and 215 points for 5 Sanguinary guard. They either need to rapidly decrease their points cost so you can field more of them, thus more get to the target or they need to buff their survivability against shooting, FNP, invuls etc. need to be added. BUT they also need to give these units ability to take on the armour spam, thunder hammers and power fists, or other similar level melee weapons should not be wounding tanks on 5s and them still having like 4+ saves because they have nerfed AP, its just silly.

[@evgenijvalamin6473]

And melee units deal x2-x3 attacks. 2 shooting units=1 melee. And you will fight for objects in melee.

[@user-sb2xr9vw1f]

​@@evgenijvalamin6473With exceptions, you could still for example use an ability to overwatch a second time

[@ace12342]

As an Ork player, I have consistently been beating my friend's Tau army but I feel that is more indicative of Tau not being very good right now rather than melee being better than shooting.

[@MrShukaku1991]

Yeah, Tau not having a detachment rule until turn 3, where people tend to be stuck in by is really hurting them.

[@banishedpest115]

And orks seem to be obscenely beefy. Charging orks with tyranids is running into a wall

[@northerner3861]

T5 is the gift that keeps on giving for my Boyz...

[@davyheijlands1956]

Same here. I tabled my friend who played Tau with my WE Angron / Invacatus build by turn 2, but againsy shooty armies like the SM I struggle quite a bit more than in 9th

[@Dilapidated_Dan]

​@@MrShukaku1991That's just one of several current issues with the Tau

[@liveac3694]

I think a big part of the problem is that "Always fights first" and "Overwatch" has completely killed squishy melee units. Glasscannon units can no longer do what they are designed to do. Fewer units having acess to advance and charge doesn't help either.

[@thetimebinder]

Exactly. Those are why I am sad my Farseer Skyrunner + Conclave, with Shining Spears and Harlequins are all very sad now. Got double overwatch by Flamers from TS last week. Sucked.

[@ruas4721]

@@thetimebinder Well, to be fair, even if you unit can charge at full strength, they would have killed like 2 Marines and then died :D

[@eugenax9345]

Well, not every enemy unit fights first... :) crying about being unable to snipe El'Jonson after a bad charge is a joke.

[@davidbowles7281]

Glass cannons shouldn't exist in the first place, because they don't work in practice.

[@darchensol5112]

@@davidbowles7281 well they do though. if you compare their damage output to how much they can take, pretty much every modern military unit is a glass cannon.

[@TheWhiteRabbit88]

How to understand how GW balances their game: Example 1. Sniper scouts immediately become auto include upon release of 10th. 2. Within a month, an old kit that nobody has bought for probably 10 years, sells out online. 3. After stock is depleted, GW announces today that sniper scouts are now legends Next comment we will discuss the Belt Fed T-Shirt Launchers. How poor model design resulted in being the best unit in the game!

[@richardwinstanley8219]

I do not care how META those oversized Nerf guns are, I will never buy them and never even proxy them in any list. They're an abhorrent design and should never have been released. The fact they've been mothballed since 8th Edition says enough about how little confidence even GW had in that design.

[@manyslayer5889]

@@richardwinstanley8219 Sadly I actually like the ridiculousness of the appearance, I just hate primaris and play firstborn only for my Deathwatch so I still don't use them.

[@paint4326]

​@@manyslayer5889you are completely cooked

[@PhthaloGreenskin]

​@richardwinstanley8219 I like to call them discount dark reapers.

[@AriousArchaic]

I think the missile launchers look cool 😅

[@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159]

Yes, next question. PS Your opponent actually starting the fight phase AND getting the ability to interrupt might have something to do with why melee should be avoided at all costs unless you are the Lion or Custodes.

[@nickcopier8800]

The strength scale of shooting weapons was adjusted to fit the new toughness scale, and yet melee strength simply wasn't. Lascannons getting 12, some big weapons getting 24, and a freakin bloodthirster staying at 16.

[@northerner3861]

Back when S10 was the cap, a Warboss with a Power Klaw could mangle anything he got into base to base with. Well, now the Warboss is still S10 with his Klaw, maybe 11 on a Waaaagh! turn... but now he'll bounce off of a sizeable chunk of what's out there.

[@Khobai]

why would a bloodthirster hit harder than S16? that makes no sense. S16 is already more than high enough for a bloodthirster. Its not a titan.

[@nickcopier8800]

@Khobai all I'm saying is that the big bad melee boys need to survive 1 or 2 turns of shooting, possible additional overwatchs, and worse charges w/ base to base rules, and they still have worse wound rolls than the anti tank guns that hit from the other side of the board

[@Khobai]

@@nickcopier8800 unless the tyranid detachment stratagems are much better melee is still gonna suck

[@-Blackberry]

I feel like my army Drukhari exemplify this trend in the meta more than others we’ve gone from mostly melee to almost purely shooting, that indicates a lack of forethought on how this new addition would affect things.

[@timostegemann9738]

Drukhari always were shooty

[@KnightsofTitan]

Dark eldar have always been a shooting faction. Last 2 editions where just an outlier of how broken Melee was compared to shooting.

[@-Blackberry]

I would say they were more mixed arms, that hit like a ton of bricks in close combat, and heavy support fire. Not shooty like Tau shall we say? Even though now with the current edition we play more like Tau with the only viable meta being dark lance spam. Doesn't sound appropriate for the army imo.

[@KnightsofTitan]

@@-Blackberry lol that's always been the army even before tau

[@bulwyf2572]

I agree. Running incubi and/or wyches was always viable before. I have played dark eldar since they were legal and NO ONE played them until 8th made them viable. They should be a good mix of melee and shooting. Now? Thy are either all shooting or you might as well concede the game if you run melee.

[@verbugterherrderdunkelheit6086]

In my last tournament I had to fight Custodes twice with my Orks and man is that a feel bad moment to loose 20 - 80 two times back to back.

[@gavinziozios1431]

I feel like they really nerfed a lot of melee weapons unnecessarily. Power fists were a go-to for breaking armour. Now, they can't even break through light armour. While melee takes skill, I'd be lying if I said that they didn't make it so there needs to be a reliance on ranged. Ffs, one of CSM's top units right now are the forgefiend! And the one decked out with three super-cannons!

[@florentsamat6292]

I absolutely agree but as an Iron warrior, I always played 2-3 forge...now I still do but I win games this time !

[@gavinziozios1431]

@@florentsamat6292 I recently checked out the Orks index, and they have an absolutely absurd amount of anti-vehicle/monster or devastating wounds, or just a stupid high strength. For some reason, power klawz are stronger than a power fist

[@malvatoss5840]

Basically it feels like melee got smacked with less lethality in the less lethality edition, but shooting didn't. My statlines for guns don't feel noticeably different to 9e. The rerolls, hit rolls, wound rolls, AP and damage all feel basically the same. Yea some guns don't ignore invuln. anymore, but most of the time i can just put devastating wounds on for basically the same effect. Melee damage on the other hand feels noticeably weaker, and the melee focused lists like my grey knights cannot kill anything.

[@calronkeltaran493]

prob depends on the army you look at. devastating wounds as a rule made the game a small mess. this rule is the main reason why Eldar is busted, even after the nerf to SoF. but saying shooting didin't suffer is stupid. shooting profiles lost AP just as well and shooting weapons also didn't get an S adjustment while many tough Models got increased toughness. that is why the whole Sister codex struggles to kill a big monster or Tank: they just have nothing to wound better than 5+. Stuff like Plasma and Melta guns are not anti tank anymore as they used to be. obviously the same is true for former anti tank meelee weapons like power fists. they kept the same str, but wound heavy tanks on 5+ now, so they got a lot worse. the main difference here is, that pretty much every army (sry sisters) have some form of anti tank gun, like Lascannons. they can still wound tanks and monsters on 3+ or at least 4+ and be effective. for meelee options, only some armies have weapons, who can archieve similar results. and those armies have acces to monster type units, like the Avatar, big Wraiths or demons. Armies, who only have acces to stuff like power fists, have the Melta problem: the S isn't enough to reliably wound a heavy tank. That in itself is not a bad think. Personaly I'm happy that Tanks finaly work as tanks should work: by being the strong block of armor, that can weather most attacks. some close combat focused armies just need proper weapons, that can better emulate the range equivalent of lascannons, so that those armies have a proper way to fight large monsters and tanks again.

[@leostarrs-cunningham8576]

I think maybe adding anti-infantry/anti-vehicle, etc to some melee units weapons would help damage issue. That way things like thunderhammers could be better at damaging vehicles without upping their AP, and, say, chainswords could be anti-infantry and potentially do more damage without upping the AP. Just a random thought in passing.

[@atflores85]

I 100% agree. We dont need something broken like 2+ but the fact that most battleline units get deleted with ease should be rewarded for making it into combat.

[@anexistanthuman2435]

You can’t add anti anything to thunderhammers, they have devastating wounds and you know how cancerous that interaction is…

[@leostarrs-cunningham8576]

@@anexistanthuman2435 ah true! I had forgotten that. Maybe swap out the DW for the Anti-Vehicle/Monster?

[@anexistanthuman2435]

@@leostarrs-cunningham8576 That would be preferable. To be entirely honest I think that putting devastating wounds on big multi damage weapons was a huge mistake, I think they should change it to ignoring invulnerable saves or something instead of just straight up mortals

[@sdswood3457]

melta especially doesnt feel like it achieves its purpose anymore

[@RockerBoy20045]

Melee combat feels totally not worth it so far in 10th.

[@chrisg8321]

Not as bad as the old S/T table where S3 had no way to wound T7 and up... Also used Armour values where S4 needed 6s to do a glancing hit on Ork Trukks..

[@jamesygamesy5124]

ive been playing custodes so i disagree

[@dilbob454]

@@jamesygamesy5124 Was about to say that my self yeah XD. I think Custodes are a strange one in this conversation since we are actually tough enough to handle the shooting before we fight.

[@julese7790]

*cries in World Eaters*

[@RockerBoy20045]

@@dilbob454 True! Overall, they're the exception to the (current) rule I think.

[@generalCraftworld]

as an eldar player all of the close combat picks for our army took a massive hit from the loss of wargear abilities such as banshee masks and loss of exarch powers, that coupled with the increase in vehicle and monster toughness has made most melee redundant as they end up being a fragile and vulnerable unit that can only realistically kill other infantry units, and shooting units can do the same job but being much safer and in some cases cheaper

[@thetimebinder]

Yeah, my Shining Spears basically lost all their abilities. Battle Focus was basically Advance and Charge and Khaines Lance was basically Fight's super first and Heartstrike was basically Devastating Wounds.

[@warm1ke304]

As Eldar players u should STFU hahaha. Joking joking, but really, you are not the underdogs here... Not even a pinch

[@adriancillo28]

Not easy to get in melee with our poor banshees, not now that they lost the old rule that didnt let the enemy overwatch u. And what is more, they can overwatch u in move phase and some enemies can do this twice in a turn, wich is painful for our T3 1W banshees. And their weapon...they have a S4 weapon with no lance keyword, so even vs most of infantry it should be a 4-5 to wound. Its easier to just shoot with our guardians. Sad...

[@JimH.]

Yes Eldar are just terrible now... 🙄

[@thetimebinder]

@@JimH. The reason to run Wraitknights and Fire Prisms is because Banshees and Shinning Spears and Harlequins suck now.

[@blueeyeswhitemoron4488]

Played a game yesterday. Combat felt pretty decent. Then again, I had 10 terminators, six aggressors and a gravis Captain duking it out with a deff dread, then a beast boss on squigasaur, 10 boyz, a war boss in mega armour and finally Ghazgul over three turns. Might be the most epic melee I’ve ever done since it started with a successful 11 inch charge.

[@Makarislethal]

the fact that the Orks didn’t kill your in combat kinda proves his point lol you killed a melee army . Orks are never durable (other then moz)

[@ledavibody9950]

​@@Makarislethalorks have shitty melee this edition. Idk who wrote the orks index but he definetly does not play orks.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

​@@MakarislethalTerminators have really good melee options imo. If you run them with a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield they're very tanky, meanwhile Lightning Claws destroy squishy targets.

[@Gravedigger6927]

Crazy how shooting has become op and the most shootiest shooty army of them all tau are still nerfed! Cheers GW

[@Khobai]

because its not shooting thats op. if shooting is what was op then tau would be fine. whats op is all the rerolls to hit and wound. 10th edition was supposed to tone down the damage but they gave out so many rerolls that never happened.

[@reaper9968]

One thing that I dont understand is why do units get to just walk away from combat with no downsides unless they're battleshocked. The melee unit just stands there waiting to get shot up by the retreating units buddies, but on the flip side shooting units get access to overwatch against anything in sight basically?

[@Daimondcraftz]

I think not being able to shoot or charge for a turn is a very big downside, especially if the unit falling back has some big guns. Also a unit in melee is more likely to be battleshocked since they would have just gotten hit by a round of melee the previous turn. Overwatch does look pretty scary for melee armies though.

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

Overwatch sucks. 6+ is worse than ork shooting.

[@professionalcrotchgoblin6019]

​@@kdhlkjhdlkNo one told him about torrent

[@markymark2266]

Im still very new to the hobby but your videos have helped me learn so much about lore and game mechanics, thank you!

[@iandestroyerofworlds576]

9th was very favorable to fast melee so this was a change I saw coming into 10th. Less lethal overall was the way, but things being able to just fall back means combat focused armies have little purpose. Fallback Moves should be a command point or a roll of a 3+ or better yet causes battleshock when you declare fallback at least.

[@northerner3861]

"Less lethal" is such a joke to me, because, having been out of the game since about 5th.... I have tabled my opponents more in 10th than ever before. As in every game of 10th I've played so far, I've tabled my opponent. Might get rickier at higher points values or against a different assortment of enemy units, but... yeah. 10th is massacre central from where I sit.

[@arcanuke3294]

A stratagem to hit people who fall back would be really nice. Wild that overwatch exists but that doesn't

[@erif44]

In my opinion the roughest part of melee as a Space Wolves player is the lack of melee answers to the new toughness scale. Unless I spend CP or dedicate multiple units to a T10+ enemy unit with Oaths, I don't have a decent way of taking out something like a Hive Tyrant or Vindicator. Additionally, the lack of wargear options on units that use to be my mainstays like Thunderwolf Cav has really left a sour taste. I understand that they are still fine against chaff infantry, but they are supposed to be my big elite melee unit like BA's Sang guard, but they struggle to take down even a single squad of just about anything they get into. And into most vehicles now, they can't really do anything. I think GW should take another look at the "heavy" melee weapons like thunder hammers and powerfists and adjust the S value of them. Keeping the AP and damage where they are is fine because this edition is meant to be a bit more survivable, but at least allow melee that isn't from a dreadnought to have a chance of getting more than a couple wounds through without having to game Oaths and Lethal Hits.

[@themilo1567]

Nice to see my video idea become a reality (Though I'm sure I'm not the only one who mentioned this as a topic). As for the topic, looking at everything put together I do wonder if it wasn't at least somewhat intentional. That game workshop wanted to discourage mostly pure melee armies to make games last longer and be more objective focused. That might be giving them too much credit though, and it could just as easily be a series of unintended effects resulting in melee being generally weaker. As for how to fix it: I'm honestly not entirely sure. Kill Team, Aos, and Warcry all deal with shooting in their own way that I don't think would really work for 40K. Point drops would certainly be a start, but I think a more broader rule change might be necessary. If you aren't going to make melee significantly more lethal than shooting, then either it needs a new advantage or shooting as a whole needs some kind of severe penalty. Right now it's more effort and less reward than just using a gun. Which, is kind of a issue when several armies are basically built around melee.

[@570y3n]

My current list is CSM with 2 units of Chosen, Tzeentch marked both with a Chaos Lord and Master of Executions. A Terminator Lord with a unit of Tzeentch Terminators. A unit of 5 Khorne Possessed. A Predator Annhilator. A unit of 16 Accurssed Cultists with a Dark Commune. The idea was get up close and blast people while getting to melee. It worked well last game, but my FNP and 5+'s on the Cultists were insane.

[@florentsamat6292]

Fun Idea but..why so much tzeench ? It gives lethal for shooting and actively counters chosen combi weapon or termis Reaper autocannons from getting devastating wounds ! Run them Undivided or nurggle for better effect, if Undivided skip the MOE ;) same for khorne on possessed, you neutralize their ability ! Go slaanesh on board (advance + charge is sweet) or Undivided and Come from reserves with rapid ingress.

[@noirerequiemii101]

Melee widely speaking is weaker in every army and as a general means of damage dealing. Of course there are exceptions like custodes and aborrants but that hardly is a surprise as they are some of the best armies in the game

[@christophermcarthur6943]

As an Eldar player I think it’s really sad how much worse all our melee units are this edition. This army is most fun to me when you run a list that blends shooting and melee and I’m still trying to run it that way, but the effectiveness loss compared to just spamming the broken shooting units is really noticeable. I think part of the problem is there’s been a trend in 9th and 10th to simplify a unit’s melee weapons far further than its shooting kit - if you look at something like Drukhari wytches, they’ve lost a lot of the high strength high ap weapons they could take, they just aren’t on the data card. Them losing combat drugs hasn’t helped either

[@lemanruss22]

I love having a whole 5 man squad of thunder cav being able to chew through a tank or two to barely being able tickle a terminator squad now...

[@fernandoalvareztorrico8743]

Saying that Melee is somewhat weak in 10th is an understatement. GW really dropped the ball on this one. To the point of making melee heavy armies useless in the current meta. And to fix this, they´ll have to make big changes. The CODEX release will be an orgy of erratas and fixes.

[@jetmedia9602]

I can only speak from a marine perspective, but given the way Vehicle toughness has increased and yet Thunder Hammers and Power Fists haven't kept pace, which makes countering them only viable through shooting. Then as many people have pointed out, melee is in general high risk/low reward, unless you run into an infantry heavy army where you may have a slightly better chance of a good outcome. Given outwatch is now on movement or charges it makes it more difficult to move up the board in addition to the lack of movement shenanigans (movement buffs and such) on melee dedicated options though I do note the phobos LT gives shoot and fade (an ability to shoot then move back, a little like how tau battle suits use to be able to), not sure if the buffs went mostly to the shooter units or if GW just don't like melee being in their shooty war game? Who hurt you GW honestly?

[@russell1557]

Shoot and move back or deep strike shoot move and charge!

[@ElGordoBandito]

All of the Aeldari melee units aside from The Avatar of Khaine and possibly Wraithblades have been very heavily nerfed, to the point where it’s hard to say this shift to shooty armies wasn’t intentional.

[@samhunter1205]

I think what they did was deliberately try to render anti-infantry based anti tank attacks ineffective, whether ranged or melee. Then because for a lot of factions the melee option are all infantry, and because melee units need to be more all-purpose as it is harder for them to pick their targets, they got screwed over. A lot of the factions that do have usable melee have it from monsters and vehicles, which I think is a giveaway.

[@ecth97]

Honestly the melee for all flavours of Eldar is really bad now. The degree to which units like banshees and witches hit like wet noodles in any situation is just sad

[@thetimebinder]

​@@ecth97Witchblades on Farseer Skyrunners + Warlock Conclave lost a AP and Shining Spears are super sad now. Harlequins lost their advance and charge unless a Shadowseer is leading them.

[@mintw4241]

Wraithblades definitely feel more like a tarpit unit than a real combat threat.

[@terrencearc]

Eldar is a really good faction and I don't like it as an eldar player

[@kyrridas1573]

if i was giving the benefit of the doubt, i would say its because they wanted survivability to go up in 10th. they want units to stay on the board longer. so they nerfed melee to make that aspect of the game 'healthier' and more balanced. units were charging in and wiping things out immediately instead of getting locked in back and forth combat for several turns. its more 'cinematic' to have two squads clashing for a while, and it can be a feels bad moment when somebody wrecks a unit in one fell swoop and immediately gets to charge into something else next turn. but the big flaw with that theory is that not only have ranged options remained un-nerfed, but some melee heavy armies have been given more and better shooting on top of their melee nerfs. (as a drukhari player, im ALREADY bored of playing Dark Lance spam in 10th. i bought yvraine just so i could start running aeldari without rebuying an _entire_ army.) so that just makes me think GW intentionally wants 10th to be a shooting gallery, and if so, im REALLY disappointed by that choice. codices and further balance changes could change it of course, but i dont think 10th is going to be remembered well if we're going back to the era of purely guns. worse, this just destabilizes the game beyond 10th. once they start working on 11th, they'll "respond to audience feedback" by buffing melee to be more important than ranged. then _that_ edition will suck because there isnt enough guns. 9th wasnt perfect, but i feel like they at least struck a good balance between front line and back line units.

[@toodear4679]

*Laughs in Custodes*

[@stripeybag6977]

Laughs back in Imperial Knights and Genestealer Cults. Craft world might join in too.

[@Romancenturion-no3cm]

The custodes who won the GT didn't go up against cults. Really bad match up for custodes because cults just constantly come back

[@theredmanman390]

Looks blankly in tau

[@samkirkman3123]

​@@Romancenturion-no3cmIt's not as bad as you think if you take a list that's something other than just 30+ custodian guard. Allarus really wreck into GSC, as most of their squads have a character with them and d6 blast grenades hurt acolytes with rerolls to wound. Because of the timing of how the allarus redeploy ability works vs the GSC blips, you see where they stack their blips, put the Allarus into reserve at the end of their turn and then deep strike near the blip before the unit comes back. Same goes for the Calidus - who is also crucial for making the +1 to wound strat cost 3cp.

[@TheGammabomb06]

Thats probably the exception, and not the rule, though.

[@ericmumper6821]

Fights first is a really feels bad rule currently. If you run a melee list against a fights first list, you just auto lose. I can't hit you first on my turn and I can't hit you first on your turn. So you'll always get to kill my units before I get to do anything. That really needs fixed ASAP or the only melee units you're gonna see are Custodes, The Lion, and terminators (who might be able to weather the attacks).

[@Chaunwilkerson]

Agreed, this Is why I hated Initiative in 7th ed.

[@briankirkland2118]

Yeah this is why as a World Eaters player... I just don't waste my time. I can do ok against Dark Angels or other Marines, but Custodes... yeah I play this game for fun. I don't drive an hour just to watch my army get wiped.

[@Khobai]

fights first should just be removed from the game.

[@Sovietskikh]

@@Khobai Then you're nerfing melee armies more because that's where you find fight's first the most.

[@Khobai]

@@Sovietskikh im fine with that. its a bad rule. im not saying shooting doesnt need to be toned down either they definitely need to nerf other things like overwatch, blast, indirect fire/towering, and the interaction between anti weapons and devastating wounds.

[@brycedery9596]

It was obvious once weapon profiles got leaked that pure melee armies were going to need a lot of special rules help or just a ridiculously statted sheet for the points to have a chance at relevance. Looks like, mostly, that didn't happen.

[@Ghislain82]

I haven't played previous editions of 40k, but I have played other wargames. It did strike me how weak the "charging bonus" is. I played ASOIAF and charge distance is movement +D6. If you fail the charge you still move forward and make a moral test. If you succeed you get bonus rerolls to your attack. Charging in 10th felt very weak to me after playing a system that gave so many bonuses for it.

[@Hjard]

There isn't even all that much of a bonus to it, compared to a MASSIVE penalty when you fail the roll. Every attack in the game has about 5 different steps where it can fail. But for whatever stupid reason they came up with, melee has one more than range which doesn't just take a percentage of your attacks that turn. It's all or nothing on a largly unmodifiable 2d6 roll. But hey at least it's 2d6 so more predictable than the usual 1d6 for everyhting else. Jay?

[@Ghislain82]

​@renehannig3154 Yah the "bonus" of fights first was confusing to me at initially because in my mind you are charging of course you fight first. What's the real bonus?

[@EvilDeadFan1995]

Charging should absolutely be your movement plus d6. I love everything about the rule you mentioned.

[@akatsukixi4726]

i liked it back in 4th and 5th edition when a unit lost more models than the enemy, it takes a leadership test. if it fails, the players roll off and add initiative, if the enemy wins initiative, then the unit is considered to be captured or killed. It gave melee dedicated units, like wytches, some real killing power

[@mellowfellow14]

As a Grey Khight & Khorne / world eaters player- this edition isn't kind to melee armies. The new overwatch rules mean flamers just annihilate my Daemons now with their almost worthless 5++ save... Naturally, if I decide to take a landraider or some greater Daemons for heavy support- Oath of the fucking moment guarantees my 300 point model dies before it can do anything.

[@effindave6909]

I agree there... GW should change oath of moment to read as "In the command phase select one unit to be your oath of moment target. Remove this unit from the game."

[@arthurvissol8901]

My problem with shooting is that GW gave the devastating wound ability to to much shooting weapon, and when you run a melee army and see 2 to 3 redemptor dreadnought with full Gatling, well you don't have fun.

[@DreadlordMik]

Isn't plasma better on dreads?

[@arthurvissol8901]

@@DreadlordMik I did not really look at the profile of the plasma, but if you play some incursor and one of the Primaris speeder, you have 2 or 3 dreadnought hiting on 2+ (reroll), S6, +1 to wound and reroll. Every six deals a mortal wound...

[@De.Facto94]

Gatling totally works for me, especially for overwatching. Hellblasters will do the AT job anyway.

[@sebson1477]

At least when it comes to GK, the loss of Tides of the Warp; and losing tide of convergence; has made charging a lot harder in 10th. Without that little but of help to actually get a charge off considering using the detachment ability is always 9" away. It hurts the melee side of the army when your charge average goes from a 7-8 to a 6-7 on the dice. Closest thing we have now is the enhancement that adds 1 to charge rolls. Thankfully with Terminators you can bring one back each turn so with them its not too bad, but with other infantry its a tough game not getting shot out before you can actually make it to melee where they shine.

[@ElGrompho666]

I'd say it depends. CSM do quite a lot of damage in melee, there are few things 10 Possessed or Abaddon+Termis can't punch through a wall due to a mix of Dark Pacts, strong profiles with good keywords and relatively save delivery into combat with strats. Then there are Drukhari, who basically do nothing in combat nowadays. They have a hard time getting into combat without getting wiped in Overwarch and most of their profiles are just bad. Lelith and Drazhar on their own are quite nice, but you have to pay a tax of Wyches/Incubi for them to lead so they don't get instantly blasted of the board. When I took Lelith and 10 Wyches, Lelith herself beat the crap out of a bunch off Kataphron Breachers, the Wyches though did absolutely nothing. Which is no wonder, because their datasheet is basically empty. With S3 (4 with Lelith), no keywords on their weapons, no more combat drugs and all of their special weapons gone, they have a pretty sad profile for a dedicated melee unit.

[@kirklemmen2494]

Personally, I have enjoyed melee in 10th edition than I did in 9th Edition. While there are problematic issues for melee focused models (like Titanic and many Eldar units), generally I find my melee units making it to the engagement more often because ap from ranged attacks is almost always worsen by 1 due to cover & a lot of weapons become twin-linked reducing volume of fire while the ap for my melee attacks matters more & generally the number of attacks in melee increased. One of the best issues for melee focused armies is the terrain and its layout. If the board is more open and lacking obscuring terrain, it becomes a nightmare (but this was true in 8th and 9th). Things like Land Raiders having Assault Ramp, Rapid Ingress, and Scout moves really make melee come in so much harder and faster. I rarely fail my charge rolls (almost always I was too greedy) and since most primary missions are fighting for the mid-board, I never lacking targets for my melee models. I believe if you look at this from armies focusing purely on melee (World Eaters, Blood Angels, and similar factions), they either don’t have ranged answers for problematic units (or choosing to bring more melee to overload their opponent). Warhammer is a game of balance, takes and pushes. My Black Templar melee is hitting harder than ever but I have supporting models like Gladiator Lancers and Land Raiders that up a path for my Sword Brethren to get through. While there are things that can be better for melee, I find that melee isn’t as underpowered as many people think it is. No matter your opinion on it, I hope everyone is enjoying 10th!

[@ruas4721]

I do not enjoy it. Melee isnt the only problem, simple logic errors and horrible design choices are even worse. Beside it lost all its flavor.

[@Nionyx]

Just bought world eaters so I’m hoping they’re not terrible 😢

[@kirklemmen2494]

@@Nionyx I played World Eaters and seen World Eaters played and they are very much fun to play! Don’t worry too much about win and loss ratios as everyone gets their turn on the top and bottom of the brackets. The only matters if you like their play style and enjoy playing them!

[@Nionyx]

@@kirklemmen2494 thank youuu! I got back into 40K to play them as I just wanted to come in and smash face haha

[@severdislike4222]

Let us take a look at the humble Skorpekh Destroyer, known throughout 9th as the "FUCKING KILL IT WITH FIRE" problem unit of Necrons lists as a squad of them could, reasonably, chunk an imperial knight. In 10th so far, gun lines are favored by far and what was monstrous damage output and just-fast-enough to cause problems movement lost their movement profile, attack profile, and damage profile.

[@Dementia55372]

Skorpekhs have seem to come down with an unfortunate case of "was good in 9th syndrome" like TSK and Scarabs and are now basically useless.

[@Makarislethal]

Let’s not forget how we HAVE TO BASE AND USE FULL CHARGE MOVEMENT ,WHICH LEADS TO UNAVOIDABLE ENEMY HEROICS! So not only do we take over watch but we also take the punch back and heroic lol GW wants us to play AOS

[@IvBeM]

I think the best melee units right now are the ones able to stack devastating wounds. If you have access to wound re-rolls and devwounds you can take down anything. The best example is the Chaos Undivided Possessed, which for 1CP do 20+ mortal wounds no problem without any sort of auras or buffs from the rest of your army. And they arent too bad getting there, you'll at least get one in with Rapid Ingress, and Master of Possession can help them with advance rolls and charge rolls, which adds nicely to their already good base movement.

[@Khobai]

melee units also need to be able to survive indirect fire from desolation squads too thats why genestealers are bad. genestealers die to indirect fire before they ever get into melee. they just arnt worth 180 points and another 100 for the broodlord. Better to just take two haruspex for less points.

[@spoonsrattling]

I think the main thing is instead of everything dying to melee because of insane damage its just not that edition anymore. However some units have definitely proved melee isn't bad at least for me, such as chosen, chaos terminators and daemon princes

[@michaelrossell5581]

So as a World Eaters player I think there’s a few elements of our Index that could be improved to balance melee. Berzerkers would benefit from a small points reduction. Maybe 180-200 rather than 230 allowing me to take more mass infantry. Same goes for Eightbound and Exalted Eightbound. Daemon Prince on Foot to have Lone Operative so he can lend his durability buffs for longer. Massive reduction in points for the Helldrake which could be effect combat units in hover. I’m deterred from taking monsters and tanks in my WE army because they just die to easily and quickly to shooting.

[@jeffreymonsell659]

I'm new to the game and building a WE army. I don't understand the rationale underlying WE point costs, they seem very inflated across the board. Like why are Jakals 75 for a unit of 10 when normal chaos cultists, who can be almost as potent in melee or equip decent ranged weapons, are only 50-55? And why are Bezerkers 25 points more for a group of 5 than Assault Intercessors? The only strictly better thing they have is 5 strength vs 4. Is it because WE army rules have a lot of melee bonuses? But even so, their lack of ranged power justifies having such good melee.

[@mechanicus8823]

Adeptus Mechanicus have lots of melee units, I am not sure why GW has decided to make them a second Astra Miliarum, they've got their identity very wrong this edition. If they improved the datasheets of the melee they should definitely be "Mostly shooting with a little melee (orange)".

[@Gaussian_Bell]

Rust Stalkers, Dragoons and punchy Robots were the core of my army, it was never meta but it was fun enough to play with. Removing all melee support from the army rules and killing their WS with no compensation has made it unplayable.

[@Chris-jl6vp]

Basically GW is completely clueless without playtesters fixing their trainwrecks that never see the light of day. Now that their playtesters are gone, quality and logical decisions have dropped hugely.

[@dickkickem4238]

@@Gaussian_Bell As an admech player, I unironically think punchbots and lance chickens are probably some of the more viable units in our army currently. Melee or otherwise. The problem isn't with melee nerfs. The problem is GW shafting infantry and shafting them HARD. Are skitarii rangers/vanguard good? Not really. Are rust stalkers good? No. Is the onager or disintigrator good? Not really but they are some of the more viable units in the index by actually being able to deal with problems.

[@tomhiggart]

The best way I can find to describe it is that it feels like shooting is plan A and melee is plan B

[@kyrridas1573]

i would argue for most armies, melee is plan Z.

[@Ynwell_theslaaneshi]

Yeah not really. If you take wyches in your drukhari army, you’re basically throwing away points, take kabalites or a ravager and you’d get better results in all scenarios.

[@crazyshak4827]

As a Necrons player, my melee units (excepting Lychguard) are definitely overcosted for what they bring. Ophydians got it the worst, but my Skorpekhs aren't faring much better. Wraiths at least benefit from free guns and their claws are still good, but they lost a quarter of their movement and their Fall back, Shoot, and Charge ability. So big hits to my melee options, while my big guns are finally viable. I think the new rules for fighting in ranks are what really hurt melee armies though, doubly so for stuff with big bases. Getting an entire unit of Skorpekhs into combat is not especially easy, which makes their reduced lethality even more keenly felt

[@edgarluna7300]

Haven't used my six wraiths but I'm feeling a bit more optimistic from your message I have the boarding patrol so the ten lychguard seem like they can put in work isn't it better to try to snag back lines with ophydian because of how weak they are?

[@2ClutchGamers]

Ork player: kinda enjoy the game, my faction feels balanced. Couldn't say the same about most of what ive faced so far.

[@daleodorito]

I... kinda like how melee is right now, like... before it felt like if anything melee competent touched anything that is not like insanely resilient it was just dead. Now they kinda punch and are annoying to get away from, but do not instakill you. I think this is fine, you could maybe make heavy melee focus armies a bit more lethal at least on their big killy guys, but that's about it, other armies are not meant to wipe out enemies with melee, but rather be a disruption for your opponent's plan.

[@Majere613]

Another issue I've not seen mentioned here: certain units, particularly CSM ones, have melee and ranged options, such as Hellbrutes, CSM squads and Noise Marines. Generally those options used to be cheaper (sometimes dramatically so) than equipping them with shooting. With the new points system, taking a double-fist Hellbrute or Noise Marines with chainswords is just leaving points on the table.

[@crucible_of_words]

Ad Mech isn't really a dedicated shooting army in general (although it is in 10th). Ad Mech has traditionally been pretty split with melee with at least a quarter of their units (excluding characters and planes) being dedicated melee, some of which were the core part of armies in 9th (Ruststalkers). Ad Mech is supposed to be a diverse swiss army knife with each unit specialized to a specific roles. It does really add to your point though when we see what the terrifying melee unit of rustalkers has become, they used to be able to take down a Knight in a single combat, now they average 0.5 wounds per model in combat vs an average target.

[@beans6001]

Day number one of asking auspex to boost his audio so I can hear it without being on full volume

[@Khobai]

Melee units are bad because most of them are overcosted. Haruspexes for example do fine because theyre criminally undercosted. While Hive Tyrants/Melee Warriors are just way too expensive to be effective. Gaunts are also too expensive relative to how easily theyre killed by blast weapons. I think a lot melee units just need a cost reduction to be more effective because mechanically they work fine they just arnt worth the points. The problem is further compounded by fights first and overwatch which render light melee units ineffective.

[@user-do7vq3kk3x]

As a WE player, I am quite intrigued by this statement

[@crow2535]

As an Orks player, I am quite intrigued by this statement

[@user-do7vq3kk3x]

@@crow2535at least you have dakka)

[@stef1400]

Our problem: either we die trying to get up the board, or are so good at killing any giving unit that they die quick and we get shot up instantly after

[@OGXenos]

Even the most staunch World Eaters player has to admit our anti-vehicle options are EXTREMELY limited and easily exploitable.

[@ace12342]

​@@OGXenos Yeah, I feel like Orks might be doing a little better then other melee right now because they have viable anti-vehicle melee with Ghaz, meganobz and pretty much all the beast snagga units. Hell, even regular nobz can reach strength 10 on the waagh turn.

[@nathanthom8176]

Melee feels fine against infantry once you are in combat, I dont need my unit to completely eviscerate entire units in one go but playing Blood Angels, the fact is that getting into combat reliably is just far more difficult as Chaplains are now stock and we dont have canticle if hate and Icon of the Angel doesn't give us charge rerolls anymore. Sure we could take Gladius but we still have to roll for advance so that isnt that much better. The less said about infantry versus vehicles the better.

[@BloodBuffalo]

My melee units have been decent but I've needed to think a lot more. Blood angels losing wound buff on charges has definitely hurt a lot though.

[@briankirkland2118]

Plus the lose of Red Butchers in World Eaters hurt us.

[@Viewer41]

Yes, unfortunately like 8th edition, 10th is a shooting edition. 😒 Which unfortunately means less overall Tactical play and more just whoever has the biggest or most guns just wins with much effort.

[@darthkillhoon]

I just want to be able to give my Vanguard Vets their unique wargear again

[@arkslippyjunior7773]

Chaos marines suck in melee now We can't punch up to anything T6 or higher and our units just get stuck and can't do anything It's devolved to shooting spam and it's not very enjoyable

[@mrheisenberg83]

And we are not even that good at shooting either. So we are bad at one thing and mediocre at the other. Thanks, GW, I hate it!

[@davidcox6454]

Out legionaries are just assault intercessirs now which is hilarious because no one takes those but given our limited range of course people are going to take a few legionaries. It seems like people are just spamming abaddon and forgefiends with some other units sprinkles in, but given our limited range it’s mostly just abaddon and whatever retinue you want to give him and forgefiends lol. I still haven’t and won’t buy him as I don’t play black legion and don’t think I should have to run a specific hq just to be effective. Be I hope they give us new units with our codex since they took so much stuff from us and never bother replacing it. At least our army isn’t as bad as votann lol

[@jasonfry2096]

Custodes should be amazing at melee The problem is the way fights first works, make the unit activation at the fights first step start with the active player and custodes go from utterly unplayable vs other melee factions to good, and it doesnt hurt them into shooty factions

[@RagnellAvalon]

Melee always has an uphill battle in a game with so many guns so with the various nerfs it just kind of really sucks at the moment I feel. Maybe not if you're e.g. Knights who can do everything at once but if you're World Eaters it's just like argh

[@Strike62151]

100% agree to this, melee is definitely so much harder to use now compared to shooting. I charged a knight and managed to kill it in melee, and proceeded to have a 1CP fight back on death used to kill me in return. Another time I approached a space marine to charge it and he just used a stratagem to fall back D6 inches, which became an auto 6 for movement. I’ve felt like there are so many more hurdles to get over just to reach melee, and once you reach it it’s not that great. Both of those games would have went much better if I was just running ranged weapons

[@grud8495]

In 10th I keep telling my friends. There is no reason to do melee. 10th has killed melee. For a melee unit, you are wasting turns, moving them across the board, getting shot. Getting shot again in overwatch. Maybe getting shot some more from special rules units that can shoot if you move (hammerfall bunker) then having to roll 2D6 to have a CHANCE to make your charge. Then getting into melee and only models in base to base contact (and the second line BtoB contact models) being able to attack in your unit. And those attacks tend to be roughly as good as your shooting units. ..... You can do all of that. OR just pick a shooting unit that doesn't have to go through all that and just shoot every single turn.... 10th is a tank warfare game. Just get all the tanks you can get and look at your opponent cry that they don't have enough anti tank options to kill you.

[@nicholasradityaputrawisesa3593]

Had a match a week ago against Orks with a Kill Rig, dozens of Beast Snagga Boys, 2 Squigosaurs Boss, a pack of squidhog boys, and bunch of kommandos. I'm bringing World Eaters with Angron, 20 berzerkers with Master of Executions , a Daemon Prince (on foot), 2 rhinos, a Jackal, and 3 Ectoplasma Forgefiends. Suffice to say, in the overall game the Forgefiends did a better impact compared to all other unit that I have with the volume of shots they give (3D3 S10 AP-3 D3 Blast weapon) and the ability to give battleshock to infantry unit they shot. Which is kinda hilarious, since I'm using a melee-oriented faction. The 3 of those even did a better job in killing stuff than Angron.

[@sebastianhautamaki4439]

So in the year of 40.000 there should be more units using and killing with axes, swords, whips or tentacles than high powered mega rifles, artilleri cannons, miniguns etc? One model svinging an swors should be more lethal than an explosive shot from a bolter?

[@griffinthomas1056]

You basically have to run vehicles if you want to have a good melee list in 10th. Most infantry just don't have the weapons/abilities to even so much as make a scratch in vehicles/monsters. Of course there's exceptions like the entire Custodian index and Genestealer Abberhents

[@dickkickem4238]

Basically this. The toughness change favored vehicles a lot more than it favored infantry and most vehicles are shooty rather than melee. Thus leading to the feeling that melee is problematically worse when that's not the actual problem.

[@shadeling6717]

looks at my Necrons with 12 skorpeks and my plan to do a melee focused Space marine army with the new book and we get the new jump assault, assault termies, and a few other rumored kits. Figures. I'll still probably do what i plan as i don't play in tournies. Plus with my glacial speed in painting by the time the army is ready to be played probably have another year worth of erratas, updates, and codices to work off of.

[@fernandopires135]

I used to play Ynnari going heavy on melee Not sure if I could win any game now with the list I used to run Also, its kinda stupid how few of the melee weapons have special rules Additional attacks on charge? Ap on charge? Shields to help against ranged? Better charge rolls? Fight twice? I believe none of those exist

[@thetimebinder]

Same. Yncarne Strike doesn't ignore invulnerable saves and it doesn't have any Psycic powers outside the gun. Shining Spears are super sad. Witchblades lost an AP and Singing Spears lost anti-infantry.

[@palwinderdhillon8242]

Yeah if you go through the world eaters index you won't see ANY keywords on any of the weapons for the berzerkers or eightbound. Maybe one or two but you compare that with any shooting unit's datasheet it's rather stacked.

[@vargaresa]

Play more Boarding Actions if you love Melee. it's fun!

[@nickelbutt]

It’s probably worth noting how all our Psykers are now part of the shooting phase too. There are several benefits to Psychic abilities being part of Shooting instead, particularly to Psyker’s who previously had to spend a Psychic ability on a non-combat skill.

[@banlungx001]

Custard just being too efficent against all type of damage is the problem , 2+/4++/ 4+ fnp against mw cover every damage type in this game especially with how easy it is to get cover save in 10th force you to shoot -3 ap at them just to force the 4+ invul.

[@johnpeach3847]

Playing with orks what I notice with them is that you have to have a dedicated strategy, you can't just toss in a melee unit for the hell of it, I find enemies struggle to find ways to shoot down 80 to 100 Boyz and such lol

[@michaelrossell5581]

Yes, I found that mass cheap melee works really well as all those fancy high damage weapons are being wasted on 7pt models. I think the current meta for melee armies are hordes, vast hordes.

[@johnpeach3847]

Just the way the orks would want it!!! Lmao

[@michaelrossell5581]

@@johnpeach3847 Exactly, Orks strength is in a huge green tide. I play World Eaters and they have some insane movement buffs meaning I’ll be on or past objectives turn 1 with possible charges without the need for transports. I have a set up that gives one of my units a potential 34” threat range from turn one (it’s not a flying unit mind) but I can swarm objectives early and turtle primary for the rest of the game.

[@blaineadams2646]

I have had the opposite experience. My group has been playing lower point games tho to test units, tho. Broadly, as long as the army is balanced with options for making sure to deliver troops, i have no problems just adding whatever. Hell, even my nobs on bikes are doing better than i thought they would.

[@florentsamat6292]

Can confirm, my standard army made of balanced ork units véhicles etc ...got shredded but 2*20 boyz with bosses, painboyz+ wagon and weirboyz had some success in swarming the enemies ;)

[@telelkhajiit7910]

I can think of three fixes based on what is said in the first five minutes of the video. 1) give power fist equivalents anti-vehicle x. Guard fist would get 4, astartes and orks 3. Hammers could be 2. 2) falling back inflicts a battle shock test before movement. If they fail they must do a desperate escape. 3)reduce the points cost of any unit that has no ranged attacks outside of 12 inches. Bonus: let torrent weapons fire extra attacks equal to half their normal amount. E.g d6 would be d6/2.

[@hinderwl]

It all really depends on lots of factors: Dice rolls, opponet target priority, terrain usage, abilities, etc. I just did a team match using Chaos Knights and my partner used Thousand Sons. We founght 2 Guard armies. It took me almost 3 turns to get into the guard lines and vehicles while losing 1 Abominant and 2 War Dogs, but my Desecrator and remaining 2 war dogs was able to obliterate the opponets armies.

[@TrypticOwen]

I haven't looked too closely at the 10ed rules, yet, but, in general, 8ed onwards, I think shooting lacks counterplay in comparison to melee. I would (and maybe they already have - haven't checked) not allow drawing line of sight through lines of unit coherency unless firing to/from an elevated position. This would mean hard-hitting shooting would need accompanying by good chaff-clearance firepower to avoid being screened out from targeting the unit it wants to or take the risk vs reward of both seeing and being seen from an elevated position. You can screen charges but not shooting meaning competitive 8-10ed matches seem to me have involved a lot of trying to hide your entire army rather than fighting...

[@mortaegul6241]

I would like to see a minor buff to melee units along the lines of "if this unit moved this turn, all shots against it get -1". I think it would be a good start. And maybe add a couple of strength points to the attacks. And limit the Custodes fights first to once per battle round/ per battle.

[@TSINIproductions]

Yes, it’s the same issue as always with combat units, only get to cause damage once they are stood next to the enemy giving the enemy free attacks back, after they have ran out of their cover and through incoming overwatch. unlike shooting where you can stand still in cover handing out damage with no retaliation. But this edition for some reason close combat versions of units are more expensive than the shooty versions. Just check out the Tyranid warrior profiles for the combat and shooty versions.

[@SarithenVol]

I run a mix of ranged and melee Legionaries in my Word Bearers army. The melee unit has a Chaos Icon and is inside of a Chaos Land Raider with a Chaos Lord and Exalted Champion attached as Leaders, with the Liber Hereticus on the Chaos Lord (for both Dark Pact benefits on the unit). Being able to add Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits 1 usually nets more forced save rolls for my opponent. Not much survives a charge from that unit, especially when I use Profane Zeal for 0CP with the Chaos Lord. Whenever the unit is targeted for shooting, I use the Dark Obscuration stratagem to minimize the damage to them, and then I can either move them or have them climb back into the Land Raider. I feel like you need to use melee strategically and not just try to glass cannon someone as was more possible in 8e and 9e. The ranged Legionaries are certainly good, but they need to rely on cover to be effective a lot of the time, so I’ve been looking at attaching a Sorcerer to the unit rather than a Chaos Lord, and keeping the unit near a Noctilith Crown for a 4++ and back field deep strike screening.

[@an0nycat]

*Only I think that "Pass a charge Roll" would be better to cancel and make a charge system like in Kill Team?* 🤔🤔

[@iceagentx]

Yeah I never understood why charge rolls were made like they are. Like what they sprint up, get tired and walk back. It's so dumb and makes melee basically a gamble. Even something like 4d3 would be better than the unbelievably swingy 2d6

[@stephenbacon9748]

Funny how 10th was spose to balance stuff out, most of the powerful armies in 9th are still powerful in 10th, i dont play competitively but its just a slog when you've bought infantry and 1 or 2 tanks but now you can just run how ever many tanks you want with a character, doesn't seem balanced at all just feels like a contest of whos got the most tanks and vehicles. Needs sorting out only just came back to the game after about 10 years and sometimes it makes me want to just stop buying new kits because you dont know if its gonna get invalided or nerfed hard etc

[@kyrridas1573]

this isnt a GOOD answer, but i think the reality of warhammer is: just keep collecting units over time. as the game changes, certain units will get left on the shelf while others will get dusted off and given a second chance. and im sure this is intentionally on GWs part. people that have been playing for a while are too invested to quit. people that just started playing in the new edition will only be buying the things that are _currently_ good, so they wont have experienced the problem yet. by the time they do, they will probably also be too invested to quit. even worse than that: this is also why people start multiple armies. if one gets nerfed too heavily, just switch to playing another instead. that way you never get 'stuck' playing something bad. because there will always be a faction that sucks. again, i think this is intentional on GWs part.

[@stephenbacon9748]

@@kyrridas1573 I play grey knights and world eaters so I'm double f***** but there's definitely armies out there that get thrown under the bus that get no attention or no new models for a while, (I'm not complaining about grey knights) but there's some kits that have been around for over 20 years. I feel so bad for anyone that has first born space marines as they're now completely ruled out. For the most part I do genuinely like this game (even if I lose 😂) so nice to have a good game with someone then have a chat about armies and tactics afterwards

[@davidkey4272]

If you got to take a free additional round of attacks against any unit that you disembarked from a transport by destroying it in melee, it would fix a lot.

[@tiberius1837]

Seeing as how in a small point (1k) tournament this past weekend, my Desolators survived being charged by Daemon Prince (only ONE casualty), and the Daemon Prince was taken out by my Vindicare on my next turn, I'd say yes.

[@tburton86]

Overall, yes.

[@sonofruss334]

My thunderwolf and wulfen been considered as a threatening unit at 9th edition, with heirloom weapon they just like a puppy and not worth to bring to the table 😢

[@notangproductions7163]

Can say that Berserkers are pretty underwhelming for the Blood Gods chosen boys. Had a battle against a space marine player and my unit of 10 berserkers couldn't even take a unit of 10 primaris to half models on the charge. Even a primaris with a chainsword has more attacks. Sad Khorn3 Noises 😥

[@LupusGr3y]

I never understood when charge rolls was introduced instead of just knowing exactly how far you can charge. You always know exactly how far you can shoot, but apparently how far your dudes can run is much more unpredictable.

[@Meow110]

Good point here, I 100% agree that melee now feels almost completely ineffective.

[@michaeldlubac9096]

The reason Melee is highly used is those big guns, when those guns can blast a hole in the hull of a void ship or punch a hole in a pipe carrying promethium that can incinerate everyone in the tunnel having melee capability is very useful, even modern soldiers still carry bayonets. I think the Tau and Guard issue are their infantry is T3 with a 5+ save, and opponents know to focus fire down tanks. Plus Tau only have a detachment rule starting in the third turn. I think the points for a lot of melee units needs to be looked at and addressed, as well as points and rules for armies with very limited lists. LoV feels like it has half a codex, WE and DG have the same issue where the actual WE and DG special units suck or are over costed and they have to run generic Chaos units, which given how GW is swinging around the "Legends" axe and making some models unplayable... which back in the day they swore they would never do makes a number of people I know that play any flavor of Chaos nervous. You shouldn't have to ally in another list to make an army viable.

[@ornado4773]

As a Custodes player and the only custodes player in my LGS's (theres 3 of them and the warhammer scene is usually 20-30 guys). The only thing that truly makes me struggle is any army that can just weather my blows (like Imperial Knights) or the dumb armies that can throw around 3 damage weapons everywhere. I think their in a good spot in 40k as they're not S tier, but they do gatekeep A tier. I think the problem with them is that due to being so elite and so heavily costed in points...every list looks the same and therefore plays the same. Back in 9th I played Dreadhost and really dove hard into that turn 2 dropping in terminators and noughts. It was fun to get stuck in the enemies lines. Now in 10th that tactic works BETTER, but if you can weather that blow (imperial knights) or have enough chaff to eat the hits (gene stealer cults) and then just plink em off the board, you beat custodes pretty easy due to such a low model count.

[@EvilDeadFan1995]

Wasn't there an older rule where your charge would add your movement? I know it would make it more guaranteed, but deep striking and failing charges is a feel bad move if your army is based around melee. A bad round of shooting may hurt a shooting unit, but a mossed charge may cripple a melee one.

[@jacksonashworth150]

I'd say it's not irrelevant but overall for basically every faction that isn't custodes, black templars or world eaters it's borderline worthless to heavily invest in melee for the most part this edition so far. As a white scars player my faction is basically erased at this point with the recent legends shift...

[@TheRedXRaven]

1. Melee sucks, because the whole Edition is about standing in your corner, holding 2 objectives, scoring 1 secondary to dump the other one for a cp to do more dmg. Then scoring alone for 2 turns because at mid turn 3, someone is tabled. Peoples favourite argument: "Use more Scenery is" irrelevant against indirect fire. Tables in my Tournament-Scene are FULL! Does not matter against Desolators, D-Cannons, Towering and all that fun. 2. Melee sucks because Overwatch is stupid with every unit having rerolls + lethal hits and sustained hits. Getting fight first is way to easy for defenders. Most melee weapons struggle hard against the higher toughness because, interestingly melee struggles to get lethal hits. Ever tried to get Repentia, Chosen, Skorpekhs etc. into combat or even just into the midboard against Desolators + Lieutenant or Rubrics with Flamers + Ahriman ignoring your save? (Even if you dont charge them specifically)? "Just" hitting on 6 (or having torrent + devastating wounds) is enough with indirect fire, lethal hits, sustained hits, ignore cover to wipe the unit (My Chosen + MoP survived with 4 from 10 models.. yay). 3. Using deep strike to get into melee is bad too. Almost no modifiers to charge rolls exist and did i mention overwatch? . I won my games not moving after turn 1, scoring home objectives (Scoring primaries standing still is more rewarding then scoring secondaries where you have to move and i even get rewarded with a cp NOT scoring secondaries). If you move, you die. For melee you have to move. Player who moves lose the game.

[@GhstTwnzFnst]

9th rules were terrible for shooting armies depending on terrain and deployment. DoW style deployments were just handing a win to melee armies.

[@ScilentDeath]

Combat units need to have a critical mass of combat dmg that wrecks whatever they hit into…

[@northman9227]

in V9 3 exatled 8bound for 135pts make 17 damage on a Leman Russ in v10 3 exalted 8bound for 180pts make 10 damage on a Leman Russ Any question about the rekt hammer nerf on melee ? Just a joke, they dont test their rule and their index...

[@mcblongo487]

Isn't it like 4 damage for the 2 Eightbound and 4 damage for the champ so 8 damage on average? Edit: Forgot about +1A+1STR on charge so 10 checks out.

[@Pfunkpoet]

I’m not very good at the tabletop game. But so far this edition I’ve had to use a drop pod to get my sword brethren and Grimaldus close enough to actually do anything worth while

[@wombataldebaran9686]

Interesting to hear that sisters melee combat has been reduced. I am playing sisters, and from my experience melee is the best option we got at the moment. Our shooting is kinda meh, so running in with giant chainsaws, flails and can-opener blades has at least for me shown the biggest sucess. Then again, we have nearly nothing to fight vehicles and big tough monsters in general, so running into melee and hoping for the best has been the way to go, or just ignore it entirely. From the limited games I played so far, melee units are fine against infantry. The enemy has limited cp to overwatch you, if you charge all at once they can pick their poison.

[@1xoACEox1]

Ive had no problems with World Eaters so far. Theres improvements id like to see sure but it feels fine. Theres this stigma that melee armies are easy and you just have to charge forward. It takes skill and practice to use a melee army. Terrain and movement is very important.

[@gavinziozios1431]

This. It's not as easy as it looks. I run chaos in it's purest form, so melee is a pretty important part for me. My preferred tactic is to take a fast unit or a deepstrike unit, have them roar up the field and provide a distraction my other units. I know other armies well enough to know which units to consider threats, so I typically pick those ones off first

[@Andonios88]

*cries in Blood Angels* it has been rough running red ultramarines

[@Turbowna]

Jumped back into 40k in 9th, got into drukhari and picked up a boarding patrol to get into wych cults and get some more incubi to go with my combat patrol! God every until in that box got absolutely dumpstered, and I miss my djinn blade archon, but at least my boat has a dark lance. 🤡

[@samhunter1205]

Yeah, basically every Aeldari & Drukhari melee infantry unit got completely hosed. 10th is a mess.

[@dickkickem4238]

(wall of text incoming) @3:52 I kind of agree and disagree with that. To me it seems most infantry carried weapons, both melee and ranged, have taken a big effective nerf with expansion of the toughness characteristic. For example, plasma weapons used to be able to wound most things on 2+ to 4+ but now it's 5+s. Melta weapons is in a similar boat but worse since they used to actually be able to wound the toughest things like the Rogal Dorn on a 4+. The only infantry carried ranged weapon that's still kind of good is the lascannon equivalents. This means that most factions to be able to viable take down other tank-esq units have to bring their own and most tank-esq vehicles do their damage at range rather than melee. This leads to a more shooty meta overall yes but I feel like saying "melee is worse than shooting" while technically correct, belies the real issue of infantry without really strong to the point of being arguably broken rules, are just kind of irrelevant this edition and I don't really think points changes will fix this.