✨autistic masking or trauma fawning?✨

This video describes and explores the intersection between autistic social camouflaging (including masking), and trauma fawning (appeasing, people pleasing) and how they often overlap, the similarities and differences, etc ---as we continue to explore both cptsd, ptsd and high masking autism.
🌷Here’s the link for the social camouflaging assessment on embrace autism:
embrace-autism.com/cat-q/
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[@katalinfenyvesi1156]

I am both autistic and have c-ptsd. I have both shame and am socially awkward aswell... my mother was highly authoritarian, close to narcissistic, and I had no friends at school either and had clearly some autistic traits. First I found out about my autism by watching Tony Attwood and after my daughter was diagnosed, then I found out about the c-ptsd via Pete Walkers books. Then I had a very a periode when I started to doubt whether I was really autistic or "just" had c-ptsd. Then I read Peter Vermeulens book about autism and the predictive mind, which confimed me in my autism. My way of thinking and mu logic is clearly autistic. So now I identify as an autistic person with c-ptsd, and I am getting better and better since I started to discover my authentic self and being more compassionate with myself.

[@BrettWhitmarsh]

I’ve been fascinated by that intersection of autism \adhd and the “adult children of emotionally immature parents” so I’m happy you went there in the hyper vigilance

[@fotter9567]

But does it really matter? Maybe masking is the trauma response of autistic people in a world that meets us with so much and such consistent hostility? I believe that it is impossible to be autistic and not to be traumatized in a way. Being told that you are wrong from practically everyone since earliest childhood must inevitably end in trauma.

[@Portia620]

Truths!!

[@JenniferKastelic]

for me it does matter. I have CPTSD from some very severe childhood traumas. This diagnosis is also neurodivergent. Recently learning I also have autism feels so good! All of my symptoms Ive worked with so far have had a tinge of "victim" to them as I was a victim. Now knowing much of my symptoms are also autism, there is no victim feeling and THAT feels so good!!!!

[@lavonnebenson7409]

I think people with borderline or anything really got it from a traumatic childhood too

[@DrKimSage]

Yes bpd is largely trauma based but we so also see genetic predisposition and brain changes. Here’s a newer article if interested ❤ www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430883/

[@lavonnebenson7409]

@@DrKimSage Respectfully, they don't take brain scans of people they diagnose with it. Or with anything really. I am not saying they don't have differences in being able to deal with hard life circumstances but so does someone with complex trauma or that they weren't depressed or even clean too much or not enough . It just seems that for some people to be given a "personality disorder" label and not explained to how they became this way is very wrong. I actually don't believe in pathologizing anyone anymore. It does more harm than good it seems to me. I know they say they need the DSM for insurance purposes and such but once a person gets a label and it's on their medical history it's really unlikely that they will find someone ( doctor / therapist/ counselor ) to listen to their whole story and say "hmmm ? That's likely a misdiagnosis ". No one has the time for you. Or for doctors to even take a stand that chemical imbalances aren't proven and antidepressants and other meds used for someone having difficulties dealing with life and the medicines make the chemical imbalance. What caused the chemical imbalance if there is one? The depression? So what caused the depression ? Most often if you talk to somebody , really talk, you'll find out they've been through a lot. But lots of people think " oh, everyone has been through a lot of something or other and I just need to be tougher, stronger and handle everything. " Usually people who seem to be able to handle everything have a lot of help doing it. They even prescribe medications to children and to me that's just plain wrong. But that's my opinion, lots will disagree and that's their right. I am just a person who has been through a lot and see things differently. I have read a lot and been through a lot with lots of counselors & doctors. I MIGHT be on the autism spectrum, be highly sensitive and have complex trauma but a disorder? There's a group ( large group ) in London and they have a great Facebook group called Drop the Disorder or a Disorder for Everyone. They have actual doctors and counselors who are a part of it. I'm the identified patient (or was because I went no contact with my siblings) of my family and growing up it was EXTREMELY dysfunctional but none of them went to therapy and I bet if they did they could be given a disorder too. Scapegoats are often the ones given a label but they are the ones trying to figure things out. Rebecca Mandeville is a good person on KZbin and has a degree in something and has written books about family dysfunction and scapegoats. There's a lot of generational trauma going on. I'm 64 this month and I devoted from about age 40 on, trying to stand up for myself. No, actually at first I trusted the doctors ( and family AND ministers even ) but you HAVE to trust yourself. And learn how to live yourself and that means sticking up for yourself. After my mom passed in 2014 I finally woke up one day in my early 50's and thought " I have been living for everyone else" if I don't change the rest of my life is going to be this way. I got up out of bed thinking I am going to change my life around and immediately a part of said "help! " and then inside I heard " but I have to do it no matter who helps me. Mine is a really complicated story because my dad died 3 months before I was born so I was in my mother's womb at the time and I have an older sister and 2 older brothers. My mom grew up in very hard times herself and wasn't equipped to raise 4 kids alone but we are all bright and somehow made it appear everything was just okey dokey. I do think now maybe she did her best but ...i suffered for it. I became her caretaker. I am good at it. I do think I am very sensitive and definitely an empathetic person. I'm also kind of tired of all of it meaning people trying to decide what I am and I just want to "be" me from now on. Enjoying things that matter to me . I love animals and flowers and plants, gardening, riding my bike , walking my dog , decorating , making things, playing the clarinet in a a New Horizons band, and teaching myself the piano and I LOVE my family, 2 kids and grandson. My husband and I have gone through hell and back together and it's not what I expected married life to be but I had no idea because I didn't have an example. I was depressed after a certain point when my kids were growing up, I did hug and kiss and tried to put them first maybe too much I don't know, but I didn't realize everything I had gone through and was still going through. And in the early 2000's the doctors and therapists would not listen about if it was hard growing up. I tried , I tried to, I remember saying " well growing up was pretty hard " but I was supposed to only think about the positive and shove the rest under the rug. Even today where I live in the United States not much has changed in the mental health system. I hope someday it does. I hope someday a lot of things will change everywhere. It's time for a change. "Be the change you want to see in the world." Gabor Maté is a good one to listen to too. I appreciate everything you are doing and thank you. I just think most people could be diagnosed with something even if they go to work everyday and seem to handle everything because lots of times they are maybe the ones making it miserable for everyone else. My change in the world is believing in myself and speaking out so maybe someone like me can believe in themselves too sooner than I did.

[@rinkydinkron]

Take a breath!

[@blessed7927]

@@lavonnebenson7409well said! Minus the part about brain scans because I do not know too much about that - but found myself agreeing with everything you wrote pretty much! Including interests 😊

[@lavonnebenson7409]

@@rinkydinkron I wish I could have.

[@dianapana718]

Having dissociative identity disorder I can relate to this. Different parts have different issues. Studying psychology taught we how to hide it all. Ask them questions and keep on asking as people looooove talking about themselves! Easy solution

[@Portia620]

Something I need to learn! Stop talking!

[@Nutmeg142]

I believe I have highly masking autism as well as cptsd and was raised by a bpd eggshell mother. I was born premature and even my earliest memories I had problems where certain fabrics and sounds or even light hurt and became overwhelming. I can also tell my the way my mother walked or even coughed what mood she was in and what I was in for. I can feel the energy in the room. Honestly sometimes nothing I would do would help though because I lacked the capacity to show her the correct emotion.

[@be_like_water721]

Was it that you lacked the capacity to show her the correct emotion or was it a case of no matter which emotion you showed, it was likely to be seen as the wrong one regardless? 💞

[@karenholmes6565]

Women with autism are often misdiagnosed with borderline. We can seem unempathetic, selfish, even narcissistic. It is possible that your mom was autistic, because autism is genetic autistic people often have parents with lots of autistic traits.

[@Catlily5]

​@@karenholmes6565 Yes, I see many autistic people claiming that their parents were narcissists. I wonder how many of them were actually dysfunctional autistics.

[@megapint8598]

Such an interesting video for me. My father used to lose his temper and beat us up. My mother is a malignant narc and a sadist who did way worse than my father. She would flip into demonic rages and would throw over the furniture in our room, smash my brother's guitar over his head til it broke, stabbed my other brother in the butt with a vegetable knife .. so many things from her rage for doing literally nothing. Any time there was calm we walked on eggshells trying to get it to stay that way. I became so hypervigilant I could tell just from the sound of her footsteps whether danger was coming or if we were safe. Same from the sound of her shutting kitchen cupboard doors. Fast forward 30 yrs and I'm just hypervigilant with everyone and everything .. constantly analyzing for safety. I think I might be autistic because I get so overloaded with stress just by the company of others.. constantly sleeping or retreating just to recharge from minimal contact with others.

[@KnockOut242]

OMG! You sound exactly like me ❤

[@catherinecummins2847]

Brilliant video! I will share it with my young people. But please, Dr Kim, leave the graphics up while you talk. Some of us read better than hear💖

[@TranscendingTrauma]

So much to say, but I just want say I love that wallpaper ❤❤❤

[@madazaboxofrogzz8884]

I have been to 2 different doctors who told me to write a list of symptoms. I just gave up il never put myself through that ignorance again ❤ Thank you for your videos Kim they have literally saved my life 🩷💎⚖️🦄🌞

[@joepgevaert5298]

I'm now writing a story where different characters play different roles in finding out that the hardest part is loving myself.

[@SagCuspofRevolution333]

@ 20:08"...having two different thoughts at once...". This is of particular interest to me. I do get overwhelmed when this happens. In addition to scanning and stuttering sometimes, I also experience a strong dislike for certain food textures, tastes, smells (I detest meat for all these reasons), the appearance or structure of certain things etc. Sometimes the concept of just being human grosses me out... for example our ability to defecate lol. Thoughts of the rain touching my body and holes in the ground/wall (trypophobia) gives me really bad goosebumps. I'm learning that all these may be tied to *something* afterall. 07Apr24

[@Portia620]

Highly sensitive people have issues with rain too.

[@5-es4mn]

I thought it was only me. i am disgusted by the fact people do.....💩

[@marchofthedragons4325]

Several of my therapists growing up would say my dad was verbally abusive and now, years later as I'm an adult, I'm finally learning how to heal from that trauma. I had been so accustomed to healing other people and pleasing them that I tried to therapize my therapists and never gave myself permission to heal, and I'm neurodivergent (adhd with a suspicion of autism) Really glad this video came up on my fyp

[@terristripstipsandtalk]

You're able to describe how I have felt for so long!!!! Now that all of these people have passed away I am learning who I am. And now I am more than middle-aged. Thank you for this video

[@shapeofsoup]

It’s very interesting seeing an (presumably-I think you’re still exploring this?) autistic person approach this and related topics as an experienced mental health professional. This as opposed to the broader autistic community, even the psychology-informed among us, coming from a primarily experiential perspective. For the latter, we may feel a bit triggered by the dissection of trauma and autism because we very much tend to see it as this one entangled thing, this experience we understand as existing as an autistic person. And even for those of us exploring the trauma-induced parts of our behavior and identity, we’re still approaching that as autistic first, and *then* exploring how the trauma has affected us *through the lens of autistic experience*. Or put another way, we tend to see our c-ptsd as autistically informed or autistically colored. The idea that an allistic person could also have similar trauma isn’t really important to us in this context. Not that we can’t empathize with such a person, to be clear, but that when it comes to our own identity exploration, it’s just not a perspective that’s generally considered.

[@DrKimSage]

I appreciate your perspective and if I’m understanding what you are saying - I hear that the two cannot be truly separated- and I do believe I say that in every (or almost!) vid - that to have autism seems to mean that one inherently has trauma. Perhaps I might need to be more clear…my approach here is to respond and try to explain to people who seem to think it’s one or the other- who don’t understand the nuances, and think fawning is the same as camouflaging - or who don’t understand the similarities and differences. Whenever I post - I hear people say “I think I have cptsd..but…” I am definitely seeking to understand more and i truly appreciate your thoughts and feedback. It is important to me❤️

[@shapeofsoup]

@@DrKimSage please don’t take my comment as criticism. It’s commentary and genuine interest in various perspectives. Whether you’re autistic or not, a licensed professional or not, your expression of your perspective here is valid. Also, I understand the boundaries you have to stay conscious of as a mental health professional expressing views on KZbin.

[@flyygurl18]

This is hugely clarifying and I will be rewatching and re-referencing: it’s like having a whole other life inside which is self managed: the external existence is a presentation that I perceive to be manageable for others. Your presentation has made it so much easier to begin to seperate the two and you’re right about both expressions beginning so early and persistently: it’s hard to find me. Thank you Dr Kim 🍀

[@yundorphin]

Is it trauma or autism... or both? Heh. In my case, the more I learn, the more I'm inclined to believe it's both.

[@christinelamb1167]

For me it's definitely both! Grew up in an extremely abusive family (malignant narcissistic mother, among other abusive family members), and also late-diagnosed autistic a few months ago at age 60. It's been rough, to say the least!

[@yundorphin]

@christinelamb1167 I'm sorry - it sounds like it was a very hard time. But you are very strong and capable, having made it this far despite all that! I hope you are kind to yourself and that there are people around you are kind to you.

[@lundsweden]

People think im autistic (including some therapists, but some disagree). I myself accept I have traits, but traits are common especially in men (I've heard figures around 30-40% of all men, which matches with my own experience). I definitely had a bad childhood. My parents were very disengaged and just expected small children to raise themselves. As we developed into teenagers, we triggered a more aggressive and abusive style from both parents. I got used to fawning and part of that became reduced affect (not much facial expression). I'm still working on showing more what I feel in terms of body language, facial expression and communicating effectively.

[@MaggieLovesJimmy]

My brothers actually used to make fun of me for mimicking others, saying I was just trying to be cool. In reality, I was trying to be normal. Now my CPTSD fawning makes me afraid to be anything but accommodating even towards those that make me uncomfortable, particularly men who s*xually harass me. I’ll literally do the talking to myself, planning what to tell a man whose behavior makes me uncomfortable and then turn around and just respond quietly and closing in on myself. It’s hard to stand up for myself like that.

[@cda6590]

This is the most comprehensive and academic presentation I've heard about this particular topic. The only vital piece i think you left out when it comes to understanding key differences between late-diagnosed autism and c-PTSD is that the former is forever and can only ever be accommodated while the latter can be temporary and potentially treatable. If you live in a world where both 'disorders' collide, it makes more sense to focus therapeutic efforts on healing from the trauma. It's a cliche, but the whole "can't be a functional person until childhood trauma is properly processsed" is very much a reality for us. Although nothing can take away from the fact that the trauma occurred, PTSD is a disorder characterizing a reaction to trauma, and not the trauma itself. Have you ever looked into breakthrough treatments when it comes specifically to the realm of treating trauma in the adult-aged autistic population, particularly psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy? I noticed you're based in California and as someone who has never been west of Kansas, I just assume everyone who crosses into Cali receives a welcoming-bag full of the stuff. But seriously, specifically when it comes to ketamine, psilocybin, LSD, and MDMA? From what I can tell these four stand to be the likely contenders on treatments utilizing these tools. I myself have received ketamine infusions and have noticed an overall improvement in mental health and hear very positive things about ketamine's applications geared towards relieving some of the pain from many of the various comorbid physical disorders often associated with autism.

[@lindsayh1163]

Spot on, love your video. I have a narcassitic/BPD mother and pending an autism referral specific to Asperger's, no clue which one it is, or both!

[@aizak23]

Incredible, I am absolutely gobsmacked. I am waiting to be seen by a specialist and if I could I'd just show them this video and I don't think I would even need to add much more detail.

[@MazeM333]

You explained this so well! I have known for some time that I am both autistic and have cptsd but even professionals often don't understand that. First time when a psychologist irl understood that I had a trauma reaction it was so validating. This info is so important! I will tell others to watch this video too hoping that they will understand camouflaging and appeasing that happen simultaneously.

[@leilap2495]

For me, it’s both.

[@pipwhitefeather5768]

I have been trying to work out whether it is cptsd or autism..thanks for this x

[@Sarah-with-an-H]

It's possible it's both

[@user-pv6sn8es5x]

Thank you for this as it really gets to the core of my situation and the way I grew up.Your knowledge and perspective is spot on.Now realising I’m neurodivergent together with growing up with eggshell parents is providing me with the key/keys to a better understanding of the difficulties I have gone through my entire lifetime.Much appreciated

[@BigIndianBindi-jy1cz]

i had a very traumatic childhood primarily around neglect and fear. I question if i have autism, but I'm just soo weird with how I present myself. My posture. I'm so quirky. The way i move around. It's like i'm another species. FOr instance, when i brush my teeth, I gotta put my foot on top of the counter, and place my forehead on the water faucet. So weird, but that's the only comfy way I can brush my teeth. I don't know if PTSD would cause someone to be weird like that.

[@DrKimSage]

We can be quirky for sure and may or may not have ASD-but there are many more required criteria…embrace autism has some great assessments to kick off further research, but should not be used alone to diagnose. In my experience (which is not massive but seems to be a common dynamic) - autistic people tend to do a lot of research, exploration and witnessing of lived experiences of those with autism before a diagnosis- just fyi if you’re curious❤

[@andreawisner7358]

Hmmm... do you have Ehlers-Danlos?

[@katalinfenyvesi1156]

I recommend you the book Autism and the predictive mind by Peter Vermeulen. I think that book helps to grasp autism outside of trauma responses.

[@BigIndianBindi-jy1cz]

@@andreawisner7358 I don't know, but I have scoliosis.

[@spottedfawn639]

Thank you!! 🌹

[@quiltdoctor1]

Thanks for this, it's just what I needed.

[@jameegrace4918]

I am both autistic and have C-PTSD. I thought all of my symptoms could be attributed to the childhood trauma but at 48 realized I was autistic and how much I had masked my whole life. As I've started remembering more things I now remember being told ... don't do that or people will think you're retarded. I had to learn young how to control my stems. I didn't even know I stemmed as a child until I remembered being told that. It explains all of the food issues that drove my mother crazy. She thought I was just picky. My son is also autistic. My sister figured out she was autistic about the same time I did. We're both sure our dad is autistic and I believe his mother probably was too. I attributed all of it to C-PTSD except my son because he was the only one who wasn't abused. He's also the only one who didn't mask it because I made it safe for him to be himself.

[@rubenvargas8288]

Dr. Sage , THANK YOU. I been watching your videos for about a year and a half, most of the times helpful. Even if it’s not about the topic of my current situation your videos always help . Your vibration always help. Sometimes out of the blue you say something that applies directly to my situation even when not being related topic. You are a medium of the Universe. You are a beautiful person inside and out. Whenever YOU FEEL DISCOURAGED, THINK ABOUT THIS MESSAGE. YOU HELP! And you’re appreciated. Have a wonderful week!

[@seemysparkle]

Thank you for sharing 🙏 I’ve been on my healing journey for quite sometime now. I’ve experienced so much trauma since childhood and worked hard to heal from it all. It wasn’t until a certain point in my healing journey that my authentic self started to come out and the autistic traits started becoming more obvious to me. I had always blamed the trauma. I found it a bit relieving that there was a diagnosis for my condition. I’ve suffered for so long thinking I was broken and alone in feeling this way. Wishing you and your followers much love and healing 🙏❤️

[@emilycutler8074]

So much food for thought. I'm picking apart a lot at the moment in an attempt to make sense of the life I've had, it's hard doing it alone and your posts are always so helpful. Thank you.

[@FreshAlacrity]

Even without yelling, constantly being scolded for failing to be "normal" and being coached on how to be "better" in increasingly demanding ways can leave some really deep scars 😞 it's hard to know how to talk about why that leads to trauma and whether it's fair to describe it as abusive, but I'm hoping the presence of more and more visibly autistic people will help future generations go through less of that

[@_Louise__]

This topic is becoming so fascinating - do the brain changes occur because of trauma or where they there first? For a while I believed that autism traits may be more environmental than genetic, but now I think about it, if the autism traits were there first, this then led me to not speak up when I was a child when the traumatic events started happening. Whereas perhaps if I hadn't had those traits and spoken up then those things wouldn't have had such an impact. Goodness what a minefield. Thank you for your video Kim

[@ooulalah4333]

Trauma absolutely changes the brain and can start while we're in the womb. Mother's stress and diet are major factors.

[@PrayerAndaPassport]

Thank you for relating to us through your own experience

[@shahilagh]

I m really liking you are searching for discovery! I m really tired of my life thinking about others . I often expressed but many people were aggressive toward me so I learnt to fawn and step back. I m tired of letting they hurt me and want to say stop ✋ I don’t have autistic sensory issues about social setting however since I got chronic illness auto immune related I get fatigued more by being in social gatherings where meaningful conversations are exhausted.. I like interactions a lot but want deep connections

[@AmaranthineIntrigue]

11:22 I never totally fit this trait with trauma (though I certainly have trauma). Maybe I have more of a PDA autism profile? I have never been one to agree when I don't actual. I can sense details about people and what they believe or are interested in. I think most autistic folks would not lie and agree they liked something just to be included. I think as a rule we are more rigid in our thinking/beliefs and generally very honest.

[@KA-pr1xt]

I have cptsd BUT I also have health issues associated with autism like ESD. And I have all the major markers of autism, as well as children, a sister and nephews who are all much younger than me with autism. In my case I now believe it's both.

[@allwellandgood8547]

This was so insightful and validating as always, thank you so much I appreciate you 🙏❤

[@mayaholligan5487]

As someone who has both of these elements & trying to understand them better and what is what and how they co-exist this is such a helpful video thank you!!

[@DrKimSage]

embrace-autism.com/cat-q/ Here’s the social camouflaging assessment on embrace autism!❤❤❤

[@catherinegrace7999]

🌻Thank you Dr Kim from the bottom of my heart. I'm a self-diagnosed 61yo single grandmother, who's learning alongside you. Want to absorb it ALL !The Truth!⚖️ I've had enough with inexperienced psycs, docs & therapists who took 'a stab at it' since age 16- when my mother pushed me get a "broken-for-life" diagnosis. Which she still pushes for at almost 90 🙈 Yes I moved, hundreds of miles away. C-PTSD for sure, but I remember the little👧 girl who was very sure of herself & felt fine&dandy about being 'different' from the rest of the group 🙃. Seeing a glimpse of that girl again as I accept that I'm part of the wonderful neurodiverse tribe👣🫂✌️

[@marthafitch4069]

Thanks Dr Sage for the "Sage Wisdom " and indepth look into my parallel life. Both insightful and affirming. ❤

[@amberv4223]

Thank you for this. I have ptsd and often people mistake it for autism.

[@borderedge6465]

Fantastic video!!!

[@alexhiller3088]

both

[@darkstarr984]

Oh, wow! Thank you! This is exactly my experience! I absolutely deeply need control in situations (especially where there is a lot of tension or even emotion generally) just to feel safe, even as I universally copy, strategize, script conversations and interactions, and overall manipulate the situation to be as peaceful and low-tension as possible. It’s difficult. In my family it is even impossible.

[@suzettebavier4412]

I agree

[@blessed7927]

I relate so much to your journey Dr Kim. Favorite channel. Especially- is it one or both. I see a lot of blending for my own self and can’t for sure say what is what- much like you. I have read that complex trauma wires the brain similar to autism and wonder about these things. I have also been listening to Dr. Norman Doidge Psychiatrist and psychoanalyst about studies regarding autism inflammation of the brain (why sensory input is experienced as painful), and his work with level 3 Autism (mutism etc), and reversal of autism. Rewiring the brain and neuro plasticity has earned a place in my heart as I was down to 5 foods I could tolerate before finding DNRS (brain rewiring program back in 2017. Changed my life. However, I am still “ sensitive” but not debilitated. I still have sensory preferences and have been the intolerable child when it came to tags, clothing materials, and so much more. Also grew up with a NPD Mother (possible undiagnosed with other issues), who did not like me at all as a kid or adult. I was and am musically inclined and a nature out door person (herbs hiking etc) and those interests and exercise (running) are still my special interests, and I have performed a lot on stage (very well) despite the anxiety. Aspergers runs in my family (just found out after watching your videos and others and became suspect of my own questions), and asked about certain family members and was told. So much of your own story resonates with mine it’s uncanny! Thank you for dedicating your time and interest to this. Means a lot to me! Whether its ASD or CPTSD- the point is we need to learn why we really are, why we feel the need to “be pleasant” all the time. Which includes asking others how they are etc instead of being heard seen and celebrated. It’s a huge thing for me. It’s hugely important to have boundaries and compartmentalize certain personalities (low empathy), with solid reciprocal friendships I am learning. It’s a lot of trial and error as well as being kind to myself while trying to finds the right words to explain why I am the way I am and share with others. It’s an amazing journey when I give myself permission to be authentic and honest with my own self first and also my friend groups but its not always easy. ❤

[@ErinWilke]

Thank you, this definitely hit close to home and helped confirm I am autistic in addition to my childhood trauma. I would talk to my teachers instead of the other students because I didn't have any interest in talking about TV shows or clothing and I wanted to talk about biology and politics. I thought I was so clever because I observed/studied the other kids for years to figure out how to socialize 😂 I started actually trying to make some friends in high school (I spoke to my firends' parents as much as my friends) and that started over a decade of high masking. Over time people pleasing has come into the picture, but my masking started to cover up autistic traits. Trying to be less anxious this year led me to realizing a lot of my anxiety was from masking, so now I'm trying to find a balance of the masking I need to be in society and work vs. the unnecessary masking that makes me miserable.

[@karendelgado2331]

I’m on the same journey. Trying to figure out if my neurodivergence is from trauma or autism. I relate to all of this. Dr. Sage, I live in a nearby city and if you ever need more subjects for this exploration and study I would love to work with you. Thank you so much for your work.

[@isabellammusic]

You have such a comforting voice and you are amazing! I met a very judgmental psychologist today and he told me Autism is a disease. He lost my trust instantly and I feel so sad right now. I just started the evaluation process. I'm self identified AuDHD and I have my own KZbin channel. I will post this journey and talk about what I'm going through. I'm a 37 year old mother of two and I'm currently in burnout. I don't know if I will receive an official diagnosis because we don't have any Neurodivergent psychologist where I live and they don't understand highly masked Autism. I feel so lonely. Thank you for everything you do!

[@TRXST.ISSUES]

Perhaps there are causal factors at place and not just correlative findings.

[@Eryniell]

I think it's really difficult to pull apart interrelationship traumas when it comes to figuring out what is trauma caused by "generally" traumatic relationships or what is trauma for an autistic person who has experienced the pushback for their autisticness. I believe that I have been dealing with both (and adhd) and I have been working alot on trying to figure out what is what, because I wanted and needed it for myself, to understand if the traits I saw as autistic/adhd were actually THAT and not caused by c-ptsd. But I have since been figuring out that there are some things that are simply differing, with biggest examples coming from sensory differences and perception differences? As example I have always been very sensitive to sounds and light, before the traumatic events even started happening and the sensory was independent of any "triggers", like I never had any trauma from going to a store, but grocery stores, the more busy they were, the more I was overwhelmed and wanted to just run away from it, get out as soon as possible...it's also showing through getting very exhausted and tired in overstimulating situations...at times even irritable. Meanwhile I also have alot of difficulties with people shouting/yelling and scolding with anger in their voice and mannerisms, this actually triggers both, my sensory issues AND past traumatic experiences, it feels very different though, because it makes me shutdown almost immediately, possibly cry and disassociate and then comes a flood of negative thoughts that are comparable to panic or high anxiety. and when it comes to perception differences...it's about questioning everything...being "blunt" in telling my observations and "not reading the room" (aka not realizing that someone is in a bad mood as example) when I see things and notice things or are interested in things that others don't/are not or which others deem as "unimportant" or "odd" and when that happens alot and alot more than other people seemed to do. And those perception differences extending way beyond the traumatic environment and influences. I have done both, fawning and masking, both for trauma reasons and autism reasons. In both cases it was(is) a protective response to protect myself from a threat of harm in any way....the biggest difference to interfamily traumatic relationships and those outside of it, is that with outside relationships I needed to do alot more "copying" other people's behaviours, because I wanted to avoid conflict that would lead to being rejected/pushed away, within my family i didn't consider it as a possibility or concern to be pushed away because we were kinda "forced" to be together. Though the masking in outside family relationships only started AFTER I had several bad experiences as a result of my "odd" and otherwise autistic behaviours. combination of things like: naivety, not able to set boundaries, not even knowing or understanding boundaries, not understanding/recognizing sarcasm, taking things literal which was sometimes seen as a joke and sometimes taken as criticism, crying easily because i was chronically overwhelmed and the sensory issues, not maintaining eye contact and crossing arms or putting hands in pockets : people perceived that as untrustworthy and shifty or not wanting to talk with other people, stating my opinion on things without considering feelings or thoughts of others etc. so after receiving alot of negative feedback directly or indirectly (usually through telling me things like: why are you so blunt/rude/naive etc.) i had to learn to mask, because I felt that was the only way people would accept me/allow me to be around them. My childhood trauma DID contribute it's own parts to all that though, like having already very low self esteem from constant criticism at home also for some of the autistic behaviours that no one knew were autistic...from being surrounded by ableist family members who accused me of being lazy and uncaring because I couldn't organize, didn't know how to prioritize so that THEY would be satisfied and because I struggled doing my homework or clean my room and similar considered "simple" tasks. to not getting the help I needed for my difficulties with taking care of my hygiene and neglect of my dad not taking care of me having always fitting clothes when I outgrew or had broken old ones. And then there is also poverty, which affected "standing" in social groups, cause I would wear secondhand clothes from thriftshops, rarely go on vacations, didn't have much pocketmoney or things in general and was much more restricted on where I could go and what I could afford. fawning meant, I would try to override and neglect all my difficulties in favour of making others feel more comfortable and less hostile towards me aka less threat no matter how unreasonable their requests might have been. masking meant, I would try to act as normal as possible to try to fit in, gather less attention around myself/less standing out (which also meant less threat from others) and to be able to interact with others at all, because I was feeling lonely and craved connection(didn't really get it from that though for obvious reasons).

[@karenholmes6565]

I agree with everything you said. Autism is definitely different than a PSTD response. I think most autistic people have some level of PTSD which is complicated to separate out from our autism. My family was poor too, which added to my social problems and failure to fit in. It has been quite a process trying to unpick my childhood through the lens of autism. I had built all of these schemas to understand why I was bullied, why relationships didn't work out, why jobs didn't go the way I would like, why I couldn't drive, for example. When I realized I am highly likely to be autistic everything made sense to me, it was like a lens going into sharp focus. For people who are trying to understand whether or not they are autistic, early childhood is where your answers are. If you can't remember try talking to people who knew you when you were wee.

[@JenniferKastelic]

Had an eggshell upbringing and, struggling with undiagnosed CPTSD and ASD, i was also an eggshell parent. I do not love that about myself. Lots to forgive. I pray my children will be able to forgive me.

[@becca4559]

That's amazing you were able to recognize that though. My parents have yet to take any responsibility for anything. Not that I'm a victim. But until 3 years ago I thought I was the problem all the time. So im healing to recognize that i dont need to appease and not feel guilty for disappointing them. Big hug. I'll be praying

[@peterskove3476]

Yes. I had individual footsteps memorized. I thought I could feel who it was and if it were a hostile person…

[@gbf2465]

thank u

[@Heru_Iluvatar]

To my understanding autism is a stepping stone, not a destination.

[@karenholmes6565]

I have an appointment to be diagnosed by a neuropsychologist in less than a month from now. I strongly suspect I am autistic. I think that the motivation for the "fawning" behaviors is a piece of this puzzle. I had perfect conduct grades until high school. I was the model of behavior. For me this was not about fear of not pleasing or hypervigilance. It was because I liked rules and following rules. Rules helped me to mask my oddities. So if I behaved perfectly at school I would be safe from social sanction from authority figures. I know this seems like a small difference, both are survival strategies, but there's a difference in the autistic brain, and how we often like rules to help us navigate the world. It is part of the rigidity of our minds in my opinion. I was diagnosed with PTSD because of hypervigilance. This was in 2005. I did not fit the criteria for autism then. If people think they might be autistic it would be a good idea for them to think about their sensory issues that they've had since they were very small children. For me this was easy. I was the youngest of 4 kids and I was "quirky" and different, my mom would often regale me with how different I was. So if you were a picky eater, a tiptoe walker, had troubles with your clothing being uncomfortable, had narrow interests as a kid (or now for that matter), had learning difficulties, engaged in repetitive behaviors, and had idiosyncratic language patterns you might be autistic. The more of these behaviors you can tick off the list, the more likely you probably have some neurodivergence. I have been intently studying autism for a year now, it has become my special interest. Initially I was trying to eliminate the possibility of autism. I had an initial evaluation before they would pay for my diagnosis from a neuropsychologist. There are plenty of other things from my adult years that would hint at autism, but it is these very early traits that they cared the most about. If you had an ED, stunted relationships, etc etc, that is also evidence of autism, but it is these earliest traits that make your condition a developmental difference. This is really important for treatment. I tried CBD and it was detrimental to my PTSD. There was too much emphasis put on my parents (who were lovely people) and not enough on my sensory issues. It was my failure to drive that put me in therapy. I called it a phobia, but it was not a phobia, I cannot multitask and I cannot stand all of the sensory inputs of driving.

[@petrafenijn2569]

Lots of recognision here,thank you. Now I know I was so tired from visiting a party which was not bad,not unfriendly ,no "bad "people,but just sooo uncomfortable.On lady greeted me with 'I just Have to look in everyone ,s eyes first thing! I did not even dare to say,I hate it....

[@natalieharris1588]

I think i have both im happiest when im in my own even though im in an amazing marrige and have great children

[@JenSumma]

I remember when my therapist told me that I have autistic traits. Three years later and it’s still weird to accept. I can do so well at masking that nobody knows. I have to pretend to be a movie star and it’s exhausting to continue to play a role

[@Nancy-cm1rh]

What can I do?????

[@MummyMagicBristlecone]

Medicine thanks ❤️

[@samiraByTreeF2L]

Hi! Thank you for this analyses. I postpone my appointement for diagnoses, today, because my therapist said maybe autism is not the problem, perhaps it's all about trauma. 6 months ago I was sure that I was in the spectrum hundred percent sure. Now that we talk about my family, there is more questions...my diagnose will be in may. She gage me time to reflect if it will be useful or not. It's the first time I saw your video, so thanks a lot for your reflection❤

[@Catlily5]

I am autistic and was in treatment with abused kids. I think trauma and autism can be told apart. They are similar but not the same.

[@Nancy-cm1rh]

Wow......😮. 😢

[@AA-ju7lk]

Are peculiarities of a more physical nature such as “T-Rex hands” something that would tip the scale toward the autism end?

[@DrKimSage]

I was just looking for research on that and couldn’t find it - it seems common in the asd and adhd communities around sensory pressure, stimming etc ❤️I didn’t do a crazy research deep dive but haven’t seen anything just yet I would stand by

[@AA-ju7lk]

@@DrKimSage Thanks so much, Dr. Kim. Your videos, especially the ones about your own experiences, have been incredibly helpful to me. And thanks for not adding background music to your videos… that would be unbearable to me (sound sensitivity) and would render the videos unwatchable.

[@AA-ju7lk]

@@DrKimSage Apparently, in a study (kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4DCpoVvfa-boJY), it came out that 80% of the autistic women participating in the study had joint hypermobility. Joint hypermobility may be related to peculiarities such as T-Rex hands and atypical gaits.

[@mnelson9057]

For me part of masking is not talking about my interests, or anything I’m interested in, with both family and friends. I also used “pretty privilege” to hide, just stayed quiet, asked questions, learned that no one really wants details-i.e. “how are you” doesn’t mean how am I:). Pretty privilege has long ago failed me, at 59:) , but I notice that difference. My eggshell Dad was classic “Aspie” in the old stereotype, with daily meltdowns, married until I was 7 to my conflict-seeking unregulated, chaos-creating Mom. I parentified myself to try to protect/care for my younger sister and self, bossing her not to do anything (have needs) that would cause parental fights that happened daily anyway. I’m not stupid but wasn’t a smart kid or I’d have realized there was no hope of reducing the drama:) that was of course followed by all their creepy and abusive 70s-gross partners. I have been trying to tease the trauma from the autism, and think I have a handle on what my autistic traits are, separate from the family of origin trauma. There’s trauma from the undiagnosed autism also. I think there are many of us out there, who descend from undiagnosed autistic and/or adhd parents who were eggshell as a result. My mind experiment to tease it out is that my special interests, monotropic focus, and the other traits would be there genetically even if I’d been adopted as an infant into a good family. Trauma from both family of origin and survival/enduring as an undiagnosed autistic person is a messy mix. I don’t talk with my therapist about the autism part, she has zero knowledge or interest. EMDR helps with the family of origin stuff, but there is really too much to treat. Thanks for your excellent, insightful videos.

[@mnelson9057]

I just read “Autism in Heels” and Fern Brady’s “Strong Female Character” and both were excellent and clearly show how different the presentation can be even though the core traits are there.

[@nicoleb9117]

I wish all medical professionals could watch this to understand better. Where I live in Arkansas it's like most have no real quality of understanding this concept or even autism...at all.

[@spokenme08]

I have a mentally ill anxious undiagnosed mom and my dad was chill to the point of being avoidant. Due to my CP I am very hyposensitive and sensory seeking. When I learned what the diagnoses actually mean (Asperger's was considered a social disorder and ADHD was considered a learning disability that usually goes away when I was 11) my mom's nutty behavior made sense. She's hypersensitive and I always thought she was being over dramatic because I didn't know I'm hyposensitive.

[@joepgevaert5298]

Ha, very funny to unmask and actually resist the urge to follow everything in the video :D

[@ComingHomeToYourself21]

I guess it is both AT THE SAME time yeah? It is very grey and they do NOT see the grey, they want it only black or white I was ALL of it

[@honorburza9110]

27:55 onwards this is hard to hear 😔 but important

[@RabbitTeacup]

my real problem is that due to enmeshment, i have trouble answering masking evaluation and autism evaluation tests because i have so little idea of who i am or what i like or don't. like it asks "do you enjoy socializing" and i really have no idea. it's so hard to answer some of these things when you don't even know yourself. i think i'm likely asd but the emptiness left by enmeshment makes it so difficult to work out.

[@eottoe2001]

I had an autistic friend ask me to take tests on autism because he thought I was, however, I wasn't autistic and quite the opposite. He was flabbergasted. (My teacher friend who taught autistic children told me that I was that "special kind of autism" where you have a lot of interests, you have a big social life, and you make a lot of eye contact.) Growing up with a mother who spent the first hour of the day yelling at us and putting us down before sending us off to school meant we went to school traumatized and dissociated. It's hard to function that way and be lucid. I can see why there could be confusion. Like one of the things I've found as I have cleared up the childhood trauma aside from having a quiet mind is that my spelling and writing have improved, my ability to visualize words and numbers has improved, and my recall is better. The masking isn't an issue either because, well, Mom isn't around and I'm pretty much myself most of the time. Yes, they do share a lot of external similarities.

[@maikvanlommel7573]

Hi, 56 year old nondiagnosed here. I have an eggshell mum and an (deceased) enabling father (with autism??). Still working my way through the trauma. And considering I might have autism. My oldest son is about to get his diagnoses, which got me thinking....

[@hcrisc]

Would you maybe talk about differences between autism and BPD too? I have read this is a misdiagnosis that happens. I myself have been diagnosed with BPD, but I've been also told I'm on the very soft end of its spectrum. I don't have intense outbursts of anger unless the environment around me and life in general is like falling apart, and still in those cases I scream at worst. My BPD diagnosis rely on my dependency of others validations. But ever since I've noticed I only relate to very divergent people, I only identify to them, and then my husband is seeking help because he identifies as autistic, I started to see I have traits too. Every time I go to a new assessment, it's like: bipolar disorder, then no, it's borderline cause you are too medicated but you still have ups and downs and anxiety and triggers, and you are insecure and self conscious as hell, and your life has been pretty traumatic since always, so it's probably BPD. Actually, it's not like that, but it feels like that for me, and yes, I have severe trauma in my childhood and it made a mess out of my brain, but still I think until this day there are many aspects in neurodivergency that fit my childhood experience and also my life today, and who I feel I am. For example, my life is very much a mess because of my mental health, but I'm self educated, despite of my social anxiety and all. I finished what is the equivalent to high school in my country and got the national certification by means of hyperfocus, access to the internet and the national exam, because I had to drop out of school when I couldn't function there. I also tought myself a second language and I'm here being petulant about it =D kidding... I just think maybe I'm neurodivergent, even if I'm sure I also suffer consequences from trauma. Anyways...

[@shapeofsoup]

Fawning is such a triggering word. Expect some emotionally charged comments responding to that.

[@ContainedFire]

Interesting, I would never have imagined that word could be triggering. May I ask, if you wouldn't mind, why it's triggering, and what word might be a better to use instead?

[@shapeofsoup]

@@ContainedFire I’m not saying it is de facto triggering or a poor choice of words, to be clear. There is however a somewhat commonly used insulting connotation of fawning that implies willingness to suck up to others due to lack of self-esteem. People are bullied in this way and may carry trauma as a result.

[@Catlily5]

I was diagnosed with level 2 autism. I was told in my autism assessment that I don't mask. I do about half of the trauma fawning things. I grew up in a very abusive home. Are my social skills just too poor to pull off masking and some parts of fawning? I am a terrible actor. I try to mask. I do some of the signs that you list for masking but I don't test high on masking. I think that I just can't pull it off most of the time. I think because I don't really know how I am coming across to others. I have a vague idea but I am not sure. I try hardest to mask or fawn around my formerly abusive mother.

[@ooulalah4333]

Fawning is basically kissing up to someone like a narcissist you don't want to piss off. This is described far too messy and unclear. Assimilate means to understand something and become integrated with it. I WISH I'd been so successful at masking I'd have assimilated. The opposite would be masking...which doesn't require still continuing a behavior while camouflaging it as stated (btw) Not stopping but modifying stimming isn't a hallmark of masking. Masking is exactly how it sounds. You're wearing a mask or hiding your weirdness in order to fit in/appear normal. Even in 2nd grade I knew I couldn't be my true self and was always acting like those around me to appear to fit in. I waited til I got home to stim. I was still seen as weird. Many ppl think when they're acting normal no one can tell they are dysregulated. Wrong! You can tell when someone's pupils are like a scared cat and they're claiming they're fine lol. I did this most of my life. 😬 A lot of this is overly wordy messy psychobabble...as my therapist friend would say. The psych world tries to categorize us with specific labels, put us into boxes for their convenience. These neat little boxes don't really exist. There are much simpler and easier to understand 😅videos on these topics. Not trying to be mean but I found this video stressful and convoluted. Sorry.

[@Nancy-cm1rh]

U, have prescribed me !!!!!!!!!!.😮😢.🙃.

[@samsarasuplex]

How much overlap do we think there is between parents with undiagnosed autism (who may be in denial) and the emotionally immature parent? (A lot of people refer to the figure of the narcissist, but I think that's too simple, even if the behavior is narcissistic.)

[@cookiemooshi]

Overwhelm in that you feel responsible for the weight of the world.

[@janenuss6]

What if you had an eggshell sibling?

[@erinb2887]

For me it's a definite And not an Or.

[@youtuber-cc8sx]

Im still kinda confused now

[@Stenko222]

Shyyyyyyt. Ive never felt so seen.

[@Amazology]

Shall we just come out and say it ? CPTSD is functionally the same as some cluster B Personality Disorders - etiology may differ but the results are the same

[@tetragrammaton3293]

🧚🧛💌👸

[@ooulalah4333]

Don't get "eggshell" parent term. Sounds like a parent who walks on eggshells? Or is it the parent you have to walk on eggshells for? I can't reconcile the thought of walking on a parent whose made of eggshells lol. I had to walk on eggshells due to parents that weren't flighty or unstable in their behaviour. I KNEW what to expect. They were strict about what they prioritized but otherwise busy, neglectful.

[@HopelessAutistic]

I'm getting a bit unconfortable seeing this kind of content... If you're going to use autism, like DSM IV/legacy autism (where there's millions with grandfathered conditions) , put it into context like abuse in Section 504 classrooms or Medicaid waiver day care programs...

[@green323turbo]

You are describing a very nice careing person . If they are happy being like that then whats the problem