Overplaying Your Pocket Jacks - Avoid This!

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Do you overplay pocket JJ? Also, check out my latest video on the simple bluffing strategy that has skyrocketed my results lately: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXvceYSCgt10ibs

[@anantachydrupamayam1718]

Well, the real fish in this hand is actually...hero

[@michaostrowski5408]

We should definitely add set in fish hand on the flop - they love to call mini pockets pre even when there was already 3b. Pre: depends from V1 stats C or F (rather F according to V1 position with his 3b); Flop: folding every single time when fish donks on it and I still have one player after my decision. Turn (when I was drunk and somehow still in the action in this hand): C and try to go to showdown as cheep as I can ;) Thanks for the analysis Nathan!

[@fundiver198]

To me it seem like, the main issue in this hand is tilt. And I understand, how that can happen, because it can be pretty frustrating to play against very loose players, especially if you are not hitting flops well. But its really important to keep our head cool and not let bad play tilt us. By paying off in this massive way Hero almost legitimized the loose preflop call by Villain 7, because look at his implied odds, when he flopped even just a decent top pair!

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I thought this hand might be inspired by tilt also. Because I know I have made terrible tilt shoves like this many times haha. Maybe Christoph will let us know in the comments.

[@mikefaz5374]

You're awesome Nathan. I love your books. I read them many times. Highly recommend them ! You've been around a long time and obviously crushing it. Thanks so much for this free content.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Mike, appreciate the kind words!

[@andresgarrozriveros5609]

I agree with folding in flop.. There are way to much cards that beats that JJ.. QQ,KK,AA, any set, any Queen like that and there are 2 players so its very likely that they will have a better hand.. And also the fish aggression usually represents a strong hand.. Maybe not the nuts, but a good hand. Thanks for the video Nathan 👍👍

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Andres glad you enjoyed this video!

[@denniss8644]

Great video Nathan. I'm strongly considering folding PF and can find a fold there about 30+% of the time. With action still to come behind me, I can almost certainly find a fold on the flop. If I continue past the flop, I'm trying to get to the cheapest showdown possible - this video was the most expensive possible!

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks Dennis and for your thoughts as well :)

[@fundiver198]

I think, preflop is a pretty clear call especially with the extra stack depth against both players. Its just important to realize, that against the preflop 3-better JJ is mostly a setmine. So when we dont flop a set, we should be looking to give up most of the time. Just like we would, if we called a 3-bet with 66.

[@postlezone-god5173]

well hahahha i really dont know who is the real fish in this hand hahha, the guy who gets max value with top pair against second pair , or the guy that punts away 160bb with JJ on a Q high flop can you explain me this Blackraine hahha

[@SimpleOne_000]

Yeah, feels like really tilt-inspired play. Just wanted to say a few things about the hand: 1. Preflop seems totally fine, we have great implied odds versus the fish and incredibly strong UTG+1 3-betting range 160 bb deep. 2. Like Nathan said, on the flop this is a clear fold. Not only we don't beat any of the value hands the 1 AF fish can have (even the hands he may overvalue, like QJ, QT), we also have another person left to act, whose range here is most likely QQ+/AK (though I would like to see his stats), and we are drawing to 2 outs if we're behind, and if we are somehow ahead, we're likely to be outdrawn. So, yes, tons of reasons for folding. 3. Turn is obviously terrible by both, though these "10% bet/min-3bet" lines can be really frustrating (especially when you are already on tilt) when you don't have the good hand. The thing is, though, that if we play flop better, we never get to this point, and never 4-bet jam 2nd pair on the turn (tilt-inspired or not). If I ever get here like this, I'd call 10% bet and fold any river that's not a jack (to any bet, bigger than 1/5 of the pot).

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Christoph confirmed on Facebook (where I also posted this video) that tilt indeed played a role.

[@fundiver198]

Agree with everything except folding on the river. If he change gear again and pots it, sure, but if he make another silly bet like 20% pot, we have to snap it off. The whole justification for calling him on the flop has to be, that we assume, our hand is good a decent amount of the time. And then it changes nothing, that he make some silly small bets on the turn and river. But since the flop is a clear fold, we should not even face any decisions on the turn and river in this particular hand.

[@Dimkee100]

My philosophy on donkbets from fish: when they almost potbet it, they mostly (90%) have a toppair, kicker can be whatever. Those jacks would have gone in the muck from me, but when they donkbet like 10-20% of pot i usually raise them out with a 2/3 pot bet wich works out mostly of the time. In this situation tho with the main agressor behind it would be a no brainer to fold here on the flop.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Good points thank you for the feedback and watching my vids Dimkee!

[@Sdrawkcab_mi]

Folding JJ on the flop myself. I put villain 7 on set of 4s. Either way, I knew hero was beaten. In this situation its 'no set no bet' 👍

[@ActivistVictor]

I can sort of see the turn bet as being passable, if hero expected the fish to bomb the river and so they made a small non committing raise on he turn to act like they were strong, and this spook the fish into checking so hero could check behind and see showdown for cheap. The issue here is that the hero ended up stacking off when the fish didn’t just flat

[@johnlaforest6389]

I am new to the game, have been learning a lot and now I want to try low stakes online; can someone recommend a trusted, honest site to play please? Thanks in advance!

[@bobroth1951]

I agree with folding on the flop. The way it played out, who is the fish? You need to learn how to fold.

[@zdzichukraweznik2819]

I think it is kind of hand you definitely want to fold after the flop in this situation. Its hard to fold a strong hand... (especially kings when there is ace on the board) and i think that this is what happened here a bit. Yesterday actually i tilted and put all money in with kings after the flop with ace (the pot was 1$ already) but luckily i got checked by guy with queens not with ace. My opponent wasn't bad, i think he just thought that all- in after preflop re-raise was a part of a bigger bluff

[@24magiccarrot]

Here is a mantra for all people that play micros. "Do not get stacked with just a pair if your opponent shows any kind of aggression in the pot." It would mean in this scenario you'd likely have to fold AQ even though it's ahead you will find much better spots to get your money all in at the micros. By all means bet your pairs for value if your fishy foe continues to play passively, but the second they get aggressive just back off, Fish generally don't use the raise/bet button unless they have something.

[@fundiver198]

I think, it depend on the stack to pot ratio, and who is the opponent. If we have TPTK in this hand, its a whole different story than having a pocket pair below top pair.

[@24magiccarrot]

@@fundiver198 Stack sizes is on the assumption that you are at least 100BB deep and in the micros it is rare for your opponent at micros to show any significant aggression with a hand that doesn't beat TPTK if you are calling your opponents all in with TPTK don't expect to be ahead too often against a player who otherwise has been passive. There are some players at the micros that you can call if they've been shown to be aggressive, but aggressive players are few and far between at the micros most are NITs or Fish. NITs are by far the majority of the playing pool in micros these days, they will rarely raise and when they do it's a monster. Fish will call down with almost any holding, but as with NITs they rarely bet unless it's a monster. So by all means if you can get TPTK in against a fish you are probably doing okay, but if you are calling the said fish's all in don't expect to be winning much.

[@fundiver198]

@@24magiccarrot A donk bet from a bad player is aggressive, but its typically not signaling strength. In fact its often, what Nathan has called “barking up a storm”. The donk better is acting tough, but in fact he is just scared and want you to fold. Which was clearly the case here, and why he decided to slow down on the turn. This hand is totally different from a situation, where we open, the fish call, we flop top pair, we C-bet, the fish call, we continue on the turn, and now the fish mini-raise us. This line is screaming strength, and here I am just reluctantly calling him and probably getting away on the river, if he fire a big bet, and I still only have top pair.

[@Ben_Spinello]

Lmao. This was already played poorly, but I almost fell out of my chair when he jammed.

[@evadecaptcha]

One of the easier scenarios to stack a fish is when they have a big pocket pair with overs on the board. They just dont want to let go of their big pocket pair in spite of being clearly beat. I think that kind of thinking led to stacking off here.

[@d95mback]

I would have folded on the flop, the read and the action is at least top pair. Since he has PFR=0 he basically can have all of AQ, KK, AA, QQ, QJ, 88, 44. Or 84.

[@camsnow9822]

The scariest bet in poker is when the passive guy gets aggressive. When really passive fish start betting and raising it is almost always top pair plus, and he is never folding. By giving him loose action with 2nd pair, we're letting him beat us at his game. our edge against him comes from winning big pots when we have top pair plus and he cant fold mediocre hands. this isnt that spot. hate life and abort mission

[@BlackRain79Poker]

I agree, when the passive nit wakes up, you gotta respect that!

[@Tomatolover120]

I've only been watching these videos a few days and I already knew he should have folded on the flop.

[@jaecubed592]

This is the kind of think where you have a good hand against a known fish and I feel the hand was rushed. I find myself doing this as well. You find the fish and you want to stack him off b4 someone else does and it hinders your playing process. Something you said once really put this in prospective... You want to tread water until you find the right spot. This clearly wasn't it. Fish make decent hands sometimes and this guy told us at least 2 times in the hand that he had something IMHO. Love your videos and your write ups online. You are opening my eyes to A LOT of bad habits.

[@alland5771]

Because of V7’s stats I think he pretty much over calls pre with anything. When he donks flop I’m immediately checking his donk stat to see if he does it often. I’m also looking at V1’s 3b and flop 3b stat to maybe put him on a range that may make me fold. But with minimal or favorable stats I would call the flop too. With the small turn bet, I’m calling because I’m putting V7 on some kind of 8 or low pp, or weakish Q. Then my river would decision would be to call any bet less than 1/2 pot, check down, and probably folding to any big bets. In my experience I feel that his player type usually shows their hand confidence by their bet size or check. With that being said, do you guys think this is profitable vs V7’s stats?

[@fundiver198]

Even an 80% VPIP probably have higher standards for cold calling and then donk betting in a 3-bet pot, than if he was just facing the open from Hero. By calling on the flop we are essentially hoping, Villain 7 is on a crazy bluff, and that Villain 1 has AK and missed the flop. Its just to ambitious.

[@postlezone-god5173]

i am subscribed, after i heard ,,the Little massage bet'''

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Haha thanks for the sub!

[@matthewrivera3000]

That was a hand explained to amateurs. That .35 cent bet was waaaaaaay to obvious to be sneaky. Light call.

[@yousaidwhaaaattt8631]

Nice video.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Thanks!

[@ericcorcoran3036]

I think this video should have been analyzed as a fishy tactic to use against reg/traditional players. I think the reason Hero shipped on the turn was that the .35 bet followed by a min-reraise was so befuddling/frustrating that he felt he had no choice but to bully this “fish”. Basically, the behavior was so annoying he didn’t even realize he was making a massive mistake. I’ll be stealing that fish move and trying it out.

[@jurgenviesemann5260]

All my personal looses come from 1 simple mistake..... i don't respect bets what fish makes. If noob gets agressive then its time to give up. In all your hand handreviews Nathan ppl loose cuz of this. I started to save many many dollars per hour after i started to give credit to bets what passive players make.

[@BlackRain79Poker]

Ya it is true, people aren't bluffing as often as we think at the micros, even fish.

[@fundiver198]

Fish are not always passive, and this donk bet into two players certainly did not mean, he had the nuts. But he did not have a bluff either, and its one of those, where even if we did get bluffed, then so what? We will get him, when we have something better. And he will also get his ass handed to him, when the preflop 3-better has something. So just fold and dont get involved in a silly spot like this.

[@MrBlack-wt5er]

How I would play it in that position is I would limp because with jacks I want to see a flop!

[@eb1970]

I wouldnt have folded after the flop. I am not that good but probably after the turn

[@miked9688]

Fold the flop!!

[@MrBlack-wt5er]

Jacks under the gun at a full table might not be a rasie for me, I'd rather call a bet and see a flop or play with a bunch of limpers and hope to flop a set and nobody would be able to put you on the hand.

[@EdSilvia1]

I'm afraid Cristoff is the one acting like a fish. Villain seven has a low aggression factor so there's no reason to call him on the flop. He's either got top pair two pair or a set so get away from the hand.

[@fundiver198]

They both played their hand pretty poorly to be honest. Cold calling a 3-bet out of position with QJ and then donking into the preflop 3-better and the original raiser with top pair third kicker is not exactly how, you play winning poker. He was just lucky, that the preflop 3-better missed the flop, and that Hero made a bad call with JJ.

[@jeffreypeterson3238]

I think he shoved due to stack sizes

[@phillipholmes5206]

Is 'fit or fold' really that bad? Hero missed the flop, accept it and move on. If villain is clearly bluffing a lot pick a better spot to bluff catch.

[@jaimehoneybunny7462]

I rarely win and I would be considered a fish or a whale. That being said I would have certainly folded by the turn.

[@cennon]

I would have folded that flop bet.

[@johnbonz1]

DUDE saw ur video on pocket aces and u coulnt be more wrong. The example u showed was villian 6, and he raised pre-flop and the SB had pocket aces and re-raised to .24. Well flop u showed was 689 rainbow and villian 6 goes all in. U think he had 710. ur outta ur mind. no way will he call a 3 bet 4 times higher than his initial raise. if he had 710 even suited its garbage, and any decent player would fold. Ypu never mention the obvios maybe villian 6 was trying to steal the blinds which would occur about 75% of the time. If he calls the 3bet I would have him on pocket, 10,J,Q or K and maybe even KQ AQ, KJ and thatys maybe it. Again ur dead wrong and I have no idea how u disemminate information on poker players ,