Ayaan Hirsi Ali Abandons Atheism for Christianity

In this episode of New Ideal Live, Onkar Ghate and Ben Bayer discuss Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s recent conversion to Christianity, which they argue is the result of tribalism and fear. They discuss the unconcern for truth of many alleged defenders of the West, their bogus claims about the positive role of Christianity, and the failure of secular atheists to complete the Enlightenment project.
Among the topics covered:
• Hirsi Ali's admirable story of emancipation from Islam;
• The tribalism and fear behind her conversion to Christianity;
• Her tribal disregard for the question of whether Christianity is true;
• Christianity as the very source of the Western weakness that Hirsi Ali denounces;
• The tribal emphasis on defeating one’s enemy regardless of the truth or falsehood of the ideas one accepts;
• How most of her secular critics pragmatically embrace secularized versions of Christian ethics;
• The failure of secular atheists to fulfill the Enlightenment promise of a rational ethics;
• The secularists’ appeasement of Kant's anti-Enlightenment philosophy;
• Why a proper defense of Western values requires looking to and expanding on the Enlightenment, not Christianity.
Recommended in this podcast are Ghate’s article “Finding Morality and Happiness Without God” (newideal.aynrand.org/finding-...) and Bayer’s “Debunking the Supernaturalism That Haunts Secular Ethics.” (newideal.aynrand.org/debunkin...)
The podcast was recorded on November 15, 2023.
0:00:00 Introduction
0:01:17 Ali’s emancipation from Islam
0:06:02 Tribalism and fear behind Ari’s conversion
0:15:37 Disregard for truth
0:20:39 Christianity as West’s weakness
0:26:08 Tribal emphasis on defeating enemies
0:29:38 Secularized Christian ethics of Ali’s critics
0:35:36 Secular atheists’ failure in secular ethics
0:45:45 Appeasement of Kant’s anti-Enlightenment
0:48:08 Proper defense of Western values

[@fortuner123]

Lots of doors to enter Islam but no exit unless in a body bag.

[@beepboopbeep5456]

Praise the Lord. When he touches your heart the clouds of unbelief clear from your mind. Fear no more, Ayaan. They hated Him before they hated you. You are in the best company.

[@manassekabasele216]

Well, we thank God for her conversion as this is just another proof he can change someone’s heart beyond what you can possibly comprehend. I don’t know about other religions, but I know the driving force behind Christianity is faith and love, not fear. Anyways enjoy your debate✌🏿

[@KINGSLEYEZE-bn7bu]

In reading her article, anyone will discover how she is so motivated to join faith by the terror of he ll.

[@manassekabasele216]

@@KINGSLEYEZE-bn7bu hmmm you know, there are certain things that cannot be proven by science and for many of them, all you have to do is follow the evidences and make a conclusion of where they lead. Which I believe is what you’re doing by making such an absolute statement. But the fact that you cannot prove this by science leaves room for me to say that you might actually be self deceived and have pushed yourself to believe that faith might not be the motivation behind her talk. Let’s be logic, this woman has been brave and that’s why she was so admired, and because she took a decision that you do not agree with, then her decision must be cowardice. Mind me, I’m not talking only about your opinion on this specific topic, but your worldview as a whole. From where I stand, that’s exactly how most atheists through logic out the window when it came to the creation of the universe.

[@Weirdomanification]

If it is up to him to change people's belief towards him, then how is the punishment of unconverted puppets justified?

[@manassekabasele216]

@@Weirdomanificationare you genuinely asking ? What’s the point you’re trying to make. That he doesn’t exist because you do not comprehend or that he exists and he’s not good ? It’s important for me to understand where you’re coming from before I respond.

[@VesnaVK]

@@manassekabasele216 but she already believed in love and other good motivations. How did it help her to add blood sacrifice and hell, two fundamental doctrinal items in Christianity?

[@gailcarey3597]

It take’s incredible courage to knowingly make yourself a target in order to speak truth.

[@normanzwane1985]

She has agency, I'd rather hear her say this than hear it from her haters.

[@rosemaryalles6043]

Sad and tragic for whom? If Ayaan had found a semblance of peace, who are you to undermine her convinctions? Bizarre.

[@ToeKneeOooo]

First video on their channel: Ayn Rand: Man's Highest Moral Purpose is His Own Happiness Ironic or what?

[@Gorbyrev]

Discovering Jesus' love is not a retreat it is to discover the love that made us.

[@flyguy2919]

Oh my, what a comical portrayal of a feigned understanding of what truth is. I don't know of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but I do know that her story, as obtuse and one sided your portrayal was, is the absolute pinnacle of the redemption story of Christianity . To be called from the pit of fear and darkness that is Islam, through the valley of confusion that is atheism and into the light of the knowledge of Christ, the true and living God, is the heart of the reason for man's being. The channel is interesting, and usually provides challenging philosophical content, not so much here.

[@pikapi6993]

Atheists lose their minds when former Atheist people find Christ. And then they have the audacity to call the converts tribalist, when they are the ones showing how tribalist they are by condemning a free woman who chose a free religion. We never see Atheists go crazy, when someone converts to Hinduism, Buddhism, basic Spirituality, or even Islam. But when it's Christ, suddenly Atheists become mad and sad.

[@dav__71]

Theyre putting so many words into her mouth because she didnt deliver a treatise to them lol. Interesting points about tribalism though.

[@AudraHilse]

Really appreciate how hard you hit the point that "secular" ethics is just Christian ethics with the religious trimmings removed!

[@ranjitkujur3067]

She is a courageous lady she made the right choice

[@tobifluri862]

In the darkness, she found the light. That's her story. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." Psalm 119

[@markbarrett8755]

I believe she converted because she has discovered the truth about God. Not everyone is totally consumed by fear. She is persuaded by reason.

[@pikapi6993]

exactly. Many people are converting to Christianity because of reason. Christianity is based on reason

[@kdemetter]

@@pikapi6993 It's really not (just read the New Testament. It's mostly anti-reason). But I do think many Christians put their own spin on Christianity. So people see their Christianity through the lens of their own reason and enlightenment values, and Christianity takes the undeserved credit for it. For example, many christians today will strongly condemn slavery, and believe they are doing so because that's what Christianity commands. Whereas if you look at the scripture, Jesus doesn't condemn slavery (he tells slaves to obey their masters), and the teachings of Christianity was used in the US to justify slavery.

[@bimrebeats]

@@pikapi6993sure let’s ignore the pervasive dogma smh

[@blacky93able]

I have no problem with her conversion, as long as she does not lose her free-thinking character.

[@stanleyrobson4622]

For most of mankind it seems true that 'they want heaven, but they don't want God in it'. What we have instead is the world as it is and the state that it is in.

[@jazzffer]

Maybe they just don't want the kinds of Ravi Zacharias to be with in heaven

[@davenewton7999]

A few thoughts: It's sad for you because someone you admired left your tribe. It's not sad for her. According to what she said in her interview on UnHerd, she was depressed and eventually realized it was due to the spiritual bankruptcy involved in being an atheist. From her comments in that interview (I have not seen her article) it seems that it's not a matter of joining a tribe to be able to defeat another tribe, it's that we have benefited from the Judeo-Christian ideas that are the foundation of Western culture and we and future generations are likely to suffer if those ideas are lost. So she perceives both personal and societal benefits from Christianity. Some of the comments made in this video are laughable in their inaccuracy. The comment that Christianity has no ideas. The comment that we tell stories we don't believe in. The comment that our tribe's goal is to kill the opponents tribe. I get that you want to be rational and don't like the supernatural, but these statement aren't true. Finally, re the idea that we should just believe science, science cannot define morality and science's current state of knowledge is guaranteed to change, so . Steven Meyers" book The Return of the God Hypothesis lists how recent advancements in science point provide rational arguments for the existence of God. Honestly, after knowing what we now know about the Big Bang, the creation of life, and the programming involved in the DNA of even one-celled organisms, I find it hard to understand how any scientist could argue against the existence of a higher power.

[@entelin]

I'm not sure specifically which items about those topics you're referring to. However it's important to recognize that we know very little about the big bang or abiogenesis. So I would be very skeptical about strong claims on those topics in really any direction. The important part is simply being honest with oneself, "I don't know" is a fantastic answer when it's the truth. Why the motivation to stuff a god in there? Even if you do have that motivation, it certainly doesn't get you to the Christian god that has all these very specific claims, interests and demands about us in particular. I've never really understood the drive some people have to commit themselves to an answer on a topic which they both know little about, and that nobody actually has a full answer to.

[@davenewton7999]

@@entelin The big bang is pretty widely accepted science. The universe didn't exist, and then an event happened that created energy, matter and space. Not only that, the event led to the development of galaxies in a sustainable way and the potential for life. Do we have the slightest clue how that happened? No, but the current science is that it did happen. This obviously points to a creator, because the likelihood of it being random is basically zero. If that isn't convincing enough for you, the dna code in even the simplest organisms is also amazingly complex. So again it clearly points to a creative intelligence rather than random events. So rather than say why stuff a god in there I would ask you why you would see this and resist the obvious implication that there is a creator? As for choosing Christian beliefs about the creator, Jesus is a pretty compelling figure who I would encourage you to check out. It only takes an hour or two to read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the first four books of the New Testament) and it might be the most significant two hours of your life.

[@brgilbert2]

@@entelin I think YOU DESERVE a thumbs down!! Biogenesis, hm!! How can I put this? I think the scientific communities explanation is the best explanation, "Darwinism is dead"!!!!!!!!!!

[@kennethdixon6458]

Man. So much putting words in her mouth that she never said from these two guys. It's fair to critique her reasons for leaving. Not fair to say her real reason for doing so are motivated by something she never once mentioned.

[@kennethdixon6458]

Yeah. You're way off here. The two guys I'm talking about are in the video. And they are saying her "fear" is what has led her to do this. She's never once said that fear of Islam or the threats on her life had anything to do with her choice. Why do we assume every response is a harsh criticism of ourselves. Weird. @@brgilbert2

[@stewartmargolis6092]

Another great show!

[@erikt1713]

She went from Islam to Christianity. She also experimented with an atheist identity, but she suffered intense withdrawal symptoms after her hope for eternal life had been removed. She could not stare into the abyss. It's different for people who never had a religion.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

Gotta love two fearful guys imply that an intelligent fearless female is just an easily manipulated coward beyond her 30s. She wasn't even brainwashable or easily punked when a child, you're not gonna change her mind with this tantrum 😂

[@Weirdomanification]

"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" If she truly is fearless then I guess she isn't wise.

[@anti-affiliatetrader5143]

"Gotta love two fearful guys" 👈 The framing is just insufferable 🥱

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

@@anti-affiliatetrader5143 whine about it why don't you. You sound like them 😂🤡

[@pikapi6993]

@@Weirdomanification fear can mean different things. You can be fearful for two reasons. 1. because you are aware of something and 2. because you are unaware of something. The people in the video suggest that Ayaan is the latter. Which shows that Atheism isn't the answer. Ayaan is free and she chose a free religion after being forced to be Muslim and then experimenting with Atheism for decades. She is not new to this. She is making conscious choices. She's not led by irrational motives, but by reason. As one grows older, one should be able to leave this Atheist tribalism behind and research how the world we know it actually became what it is. And the truth is the Judaism and Christianity are the reason why we are living in a free world.

[@michaelransom5841]

I find it strange that people have trouble understanding the concept of the rise of morality from a purely rational perspective... I can only imagine that this is du to the fact that the evidence points to morality being subjective and fluid rather than objective and ridged... This is not to say that we each have our own moral compass and there is no objective way to differentiate... there most certainly is, but it comes down to it being an emergent property of the need to form, and the benefit of forming, communities and societies. The emergence of morals as a property of communal living can be seen through the lens of evolution, quorum sensing, and the dynamics between individual incentives and the survival of the community as a system. In evolutionary terms, behaviors that enhance the survival and reproductive success of individuals within a group tend to be favored. As humans evolved in communal settings, traits like cooperation, empathy, and fairness, which are foundational to moral behavior, likely provided a survival advantage. This is evident in the concept of quorum sensing, a process observed in biological systems where the collective behavior of a group is coordinated through the detection of signals indicating the density of the group. In human communities, this translates to a form of social quorum sensing, where the actions and beliefs of individuals are influenced by the prevailing norms and values of the group. As for the interplay between individual incentives and the propagation of the community, moral behaviors often serve to balance these aspects. While individuals may have incentives to act selfishly for short-term gain, such actions can be detrimental to the long-term survival and cohesion of the community. Thus, moral codes often emerge that promote behaviors beneficial to the group, even if they sometimes require individual sacrifice. This social contract strengthens the community, ensuring its survival and, by extension, the survival of its members. In an increasingly interconnected world, the nature of morality is continually evolving. As communities become more diverse and interconnected, there is a greater need for moral frameworks that transcend local customs and address global challenges. This leads to the development of more inclusive and universally applicable moral principles, such as respect for human rights, environmental stewardship, and global justice. hence changing attitudes towards secular principles, and why practices like slavery were once acceptable, but are now seen as abhorrent. These evolving moral standards reflect the complex interplay between diverse cultural values and the universal challenges faced by humanity in a globalized world, highlighting the dynamic nature of morality as an emergent property of communal living.

[@davenewton7999]

I'm sure the 10's of millions killed in Russia and China would have found your analysis of how evolution is leading to a more moral world convincing, had they not been murdered by their governments. "If I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible what was the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men had forgotten God; that is why all this has happened.' "-- Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

[@michaelransom5841]

@@davenewton7999 In response to your reference to the tragedies in Russia and China and Solzhenitsyn's quote, I appreciate the depth of your concern. It's crucial to distinguish, however, between the failings of certain leaders or governments and the broader evolutionary trajectory of morality in human societies. The atrocities committed by governments like those of Stalin or Mao are indeed horrific blights on human history, but they do not, in themselves, negate the broader pattern of moral evolution within societies. These events are more reflective of the abuse of power and the dangers of totalitarian regimes, rather than indicators of the overall direction of moral development in human communities. The evolution of morality, as I argued, stems from the necessity of communal living and the benefits it brings in terms of survival and reproductive success. This process is not linear or uniformly progressive; it involves setbacks and deviations, often caused by complex socio-political dynamics. The actions of despotic regimes are examples of such deviations, where the moral compass of a community is hijacked by the ambitions and ideologies of its leaders. Moreover, Solzhenitsyn's emphasis on "forgetting God" as a root cause of societal downfall points to a different aspect of moral discourse - the role of spiritual or religious beliefs in shaping moral values. While these beliefs have undoubtedly played a significant role in many societies, the emergence of moral norms can also be explained through secular, evolutionary perspectives, as I previously outlined. In essence, the evolution of morality is a multifaceted and uneven process, influenced by a range of factors including biological evolution, cultural development, and historical events. The reprehensible actions of certain governments or leaders throughout history reflect deviations from this process rather than its overall trajectory. My aim with my original comment was to illustrate how moral norms can emerge and evolve in societies without necessarily invoking divine mandates, but rather through the natural dynamics of communal living and human interaction... and as one would expect, if such a system arose through natural selection, we would fully expect to see deviations and "failings" as this is a probabilistic process, not one with a pre-mandated outcome.. This very much fits with our observations of the world around us.

[@davenewton7999]

@@michaelransom5841 Those are some pretty major deviations. But to understand your position better, please tell me what is happening in non-Western areas that makes you believe that morality is evolving in a positive way? (It needs to be happening in non-Western areas to prove your point because whatever is happening in Western areas could be a result of the influence of Christianity. If it's a rational evolution is should be happening everywhere..) And more importantly, what is your basis for believing that whatever you see happening is a positive thing?

[@tobifluri862]

Fear as a driver of tribal age: The more prosperity and decline of the Christian faith, the more tribalism.

[@TheFirstManticore]

Ayaan does not argue theology because she knows she is not sufficiently advanced in theology; she is new at it. I expect she will learn more, if she stays a Christian. Whether you are atheist or Christian or something else, these times are very turbulent. Just as we see wild fluctuations in economy and politics, there is great turbulence in mental and emotional life among most people. You will see this among atheists, agnostics, and religious people. You may have noticed how Science has gone bad in recent years. It is no longer though good to tell the public of major advances, but these are regarded as trade secrets. And, since members of the public are able to think for themselves, even the methods and findings of supposed medical interventions are kept secret. God forbid that people should make their own decisions on the basis of full knowledge.

[@lotimol3288]

I think that she found her values in her last conversion. Its not to rally in order to have other fellows to fight alongside, you have missed her interior and exterior war if you think that she needed help to fight her way in life

[@mwansamunsha6490]

Atheist tears, very very sweet! Ayaan has found something and someone more tangible, loft, substantial and real in Christianity and Christ. Ayaan , once described as the most brilliant mind to ever come out of Africa by Christopher Hitchens , is suddenly a dimwit, unreasonable and a lazy mind. Anthony Flew got the same treatment. We wish you well Ayaan

[@mmikee407]

Thanks Onkar and Ben, you managed to debunk the litany of challenges that are plaguing the discussion around secular ethics, morality, the need for some form of supernatural/faith grounded story to have purpose and meaning for life. It takes brilliant minds to offer answers to why the ideas of enlightenment are objectively true and equally moral.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

Did they? How so? Can you explain it or just got poop on your nose 😂

[@mmikee407]

GAGF@@terrorists-are-among-us

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

@@mmikee407 speak English 🤡

[@hu6284]

waaaaaaaaa

[@mawalir937]

When I heard about Ayaan Ali now going back to religion albeit a present time "tamed" version of a Christianity the first thought I had was that this woman needs help. And I don't say this lightly or derisively. I really think there is an issue that needs to be addressed by a trained counselor to help her restore her true self that resembles a "normal" human being. I recognize that religion is as they say hard wired into human psyche. It is so because religion is a leech that attaches itself to that basic human instinct of insecurity. I am not a trained psychologist, but I truly believe that we are indeed not born with a clean slate and one instinct that is present in us all is insecurity and I have experienced it firsthand with a 2-month-old baby. Religions best friend is insecurity, it preys on insecurity, and it thrives on insecurity. I am a living example of a person who gave up religion almost 25 years ago. I was not abused, molested, sodomized or otherwise grew up in a religion frenzied family atmosphere. Although, there was one little incident when I was 10 when my father forced me to participate in a religious ritual and I still to this day feel the resentment and the resulting disdain. I was born and grew up in a very loving Muslim family. My dad was a practicing Muslim who prayed 5 times a day. I left religion because my dad instilled in me one not to criticize others for what they believe and two to read and discover. So, before I left Islam, I decided to I need to know what am I leaving. Amazingly I knew nothing about Islam except the rituals. My inquiry made the decision easy because I found that the Quran was 2/3 admonitions and the rest copied over mainly from Judaism and some from Christianity. Islam is a pirated copy of Judaism and most of its nastiest practices like “stoning to death” and animal sacrifice were copied from Judaism. BTW, the problem is not Islam it’s the people who follow it, the Muslims. If you were to juxtapose and switch Christianity to the Arab world today, we would be decrying the damn Christians. Think about it.

[@danielcamejo1177]

If it is true that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has renounced her identification with a clear position of reason and seeking rational evidence to uphold ones criteria, and has "converted" to a philosophy based on the premise of "do not reason, do not seek evidence" but, instead have "faith"and obey religious authorities and "sacred"books from 2 or 3,000 years ago because a "god" supposedly said so. Very sad to see such a submission by such a brilliant and brave person. Sad.

[@hu6284]

waaaaaaaa

[@Nicolaus-ih3fy]

You seem to have a simplistic view of reason, equating it with atheism. Have you noticed how infrequently great scientists -- physicists, mathematicians, go around professing their atheism? Because they realize how simplistic and naive that would be. They usually keep to themselves their agnosticism, when they are agnostic. They know enough to realize that science is of no help to find the answer to certain questions.

[@ladymacbethofmtensk896]

Another "skeptic" changes steeds on the same old merry-go-round.

[@sauwanejamesmakgakge5550]

She was just liked for the simple reason she was against Islam. She benefited along the way as well. We need credible debate

[@carolburkosky7148]

I was thinking she probably would. I have read her books and watched her in countless debates... she is an incredibly brave and wise woman who knows what the answer is to save us❤

[@sixofone88]

Thank you very much for this analysis; I was particularly impressed by the highlighting of the Enlightenment's shortcomings.

[@andhelm7097]

Have you guys lost your sacred cow ?😅 She is an adult,she made a choice, she changed her mind later.what' s the big deal? Never seen so many men upset about a woman make a choice before!! Are you really children of the enlightenment or do you belong to a sect ? 😂😂😂

[@MsChitterchat]

What a strange perspective. So rational and cold really. I wish this wasn’t how I felt but this video puts me off a lot of your other takes on things. And also why do you care? If you’re interested in personal liberty this is what it looks like.

[@rodchung173]

Because when you look closer, their atheism is a religion to them. In fact they portray some elements of the intolerance of religions that won't live side by side others with different beliefs.

[@CMO999]

Keep coping

[@hookem3768]

Great job guys!

[@ea2631]

"what about russia" What a rediculous concern holy hell

[@michaelransom5841]

Regardless of all the moral, ethical, political, social or other justifications, it's all irrelevant from the perspective of atheisim... It's simply the perspective that you can't find sufficient evidence that a god exists... Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of Christianity I like too, but there just isn't any evidence that it's a portrayal of reality... In fact, reality is in direct conflict with the claims made in scripture... So sure, you can culturally be Christian, but how do believe in a God in light of the evidence to the contrary... Seems strange to be ok accepting a belief in the make believe... It's like "deciding" to start believing in santa clause, even without any change in the evidence that such a thing could be possible... Oh well I digress.. it just seems strange to me, to adopt a brief in a non existent diety for the sake of a cultural identity...

[@pikapi6993]

Do you have evidence that God doesn't exist? What seems strange to you, is something that Jews take for granted. Secular Jews don't believe yet they keep the traditions and values. And look how Jewish societies are thriving. They have at least 2-3 children per woman in Israel. More than any other OECD countries. This indicates a healthy society. Nobody has won more Nobel Prizes than Jews as a people. These people's psyche isn't being destroyed by modernity as much as everybody elses psyche.

[@iainrae6159]

Many Jews are athiests but remain culturaly Jewish. Perhaps Ayaan belongs in the athiest Christian camp. Yet to hear her or Jordan Peterson say they actually believe in the supernatural God type beiñg religious folks believe in.

[@pikapi6993]

Jordan Peterson believes in God. It is so obvious. His wife survived cancer because of God. All doctors said that she will die. But no, she was the first one who survived a cancer like this, because of God. If you are a follower of Jordan Peterson's work and life, you cannot question wether he believes in God or not. It is obvious.

[@frederickmfarias3109]

What about the selfish virtuous man, not Machiavellian, not Nietzschean, but rational? Exemplified by Mr. Roark in “The Fountainhead”.

[@Randomest_Stories]

Problem is....never found a Mr Roark in life nor have I found it possible to be like that. U can only be that in a book where the universe is controlled by the writer. U found a selfish person, who is perfectly moral?

[@frederickmfarias3109]

@@Randomest_Stories Is it a realistic universe? To you?

[@leonlawson3252]

Peter; Bravo, this might just be your bestIntellectual conversation Ever.

[@darrenplies9034]

I too can psychoanalyze and say, Michael Shermer is extremely tribalistic without good answers. The idea of a vacuum created by removing Christianity (see Tom Holland dominion) from western society should at bare minimum be not dismissed, especially when it’s coming from some atheistic/agnostic community voices. You may not find them to persuade you fully, but no one can rationally say that some theistic arguments aren’t good. I do not believe it’s reasonable to scoff at the passion of Christ/Messiah

[@Apriluser]

Good points!

[@AndSendMe]

I will gladly say that rationally, any argument is not good to the extent it is premised in or claims to prove the existence of a god.

[@VesnaVK]

Very sad, and so well described.

[@hu6284]

waaaaaaa

[@jobirbatti6713]

She has a very good analytical mind and knows what she is doing. Anybody who reads and understands what is written in the islamic teachings of the quran and hadith, most people would convert to anything but not islam. What you should see is not the person, but what are the teachings of christ. It's totally incomparable what islam teaches.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

She was making a statement about her decision not trying to sell it to self obsessed guys. Do your research and educate yourself 😂

[@abdiabdullahbeshir1317]

There is no presence of brotherhood in Kenya

[@TheJustinJ]

As a Pastors Kid, I can say its to compelling of a story: A boogeyman lives in a city in the clouds with known and given dimensions. He allows the devil in to ask and be granted his wishes, but you are inherently sinful and evil. So unworthy of god that he cant even look at you in your filth. And so he sent his only son to die as a human child sacrifice unto himself to appease his own anger at the world he himself created with a propensity to sin, and he himself had cast the devil and all of the fallen angels out of heaven onto the planet to roam and tempt the very creation he made in his image and said was "good". Narcissus has nothing on YHWH. Narcissist was beautiful, but had a curse that if he ever saw his own reflection he would die. And he tried to avoid it but caught am image of himself reflected in a pool of water when he needed a drink and so died. The correct term for a Narcissist is MOSES.

[@Weirdomanification]

Also, remember that "original sin" was the desire of knowledge.

[@lotharlamurtra7924]

So now we have two first line anti woke Ayan Irsi Ali and Jordan Peterson. Jordan more and more says that without the judeocristianismo we are lost. Interesting situation. Are there more relevant christians in this worldly debate?

[@neoepicurean3772]

Spinoza was a deeply religious think though right? But maybe he'd just be considered a panpsychist today.

[@VesnaVK]

I would love to see either of you on Peter Boghossian's show. Maybe you could reach out? Lately I've heard him talk with Dawkins, Shermer, Pinecreek, and Peterson (like you're ever going to get a coherent rational throughline from him) about the so-called Substitution Hypothesis and whether the New Atheist movement did more harm than good, because look at this awful woke religion today, and didn't New Atheism and secularism just create a religion-shaped hole that wokism rushed in to fill. I think this hypothesis can easily be defeated many ways, but so far no one has really tackled it head on.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

"We are so rational, let's pretend there is no value to God and imply she's a coward cause she's grown in wisdom and changed her mind" 🤡

[@czarriggs9247]

Academia is a blindfold to the reality of the metaphysical world. Very limiting. Good on her for having the wisdom to go beyond that.

[@aeomaster32]

A brilliant analysis from you both. As a long time admirer of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I too share your disappointment in this remarkable intelligent woman. It is so sad that so many think morality can only come from a mystical being.

[@yohannesmarbun5000]

You can be moral without God, but also can choose another side of it. Her point is that atheism failed to make society (especially western) better. She referred to Dominion by Tom Holland (not a Christian scholar/historian) that Christianity brings superior ideology that builds Western civilization like today.

[@aeomaster32]

Atheism per se, is not an ideology, it is simply a non belief in mystical beings. All that it contributes is the fact that one must then base a morality not on the commandments of some mythical overlord, but instead turn to reason and reality. That is what Ayn Rand has done. @@yohannesmarbun5000

[@robharris5467]

She went through that phase, came out of it and after much agony found faith in Christ.

[@AlleluiaElizabeth]

Why is this being described as sad? I don’t see how this is sad. You can still agree with her arguments on things that aren’t theism if you want. It’s not like she suddenly lost the ability to logic bc she came to a different conclusion than you on one topic.

[@AndSendMe]

She didn't lose logic, she had it in exactly the incomplete and faulty form that is the best our mainstream cultural creators tend to manage, and that is sad, because it is an important aspect of why the world is going down in flames. It's worse because she had an opportunity to know better.

[@dougpridgen9682]

There is no way to come to a conclusion on the basis of non-evidence and mystical faith. Faith has no methodology enabling anyone to come to a conclusion, otherwise the Bible and church would serve no purpose. The fact that faith has no rational method and is therefore irrational explains why there are countless religions that contradict reality and each other and why they cannot resolve their differences by rational means and therefore must eventually resort to violence. The idea of coming to the conclusion that god exists or that any religion is true is ridiculous. The arbitrary is neither true nor false, it’s non-cognitive gibberish.

[@cavaleirosemlicenca3894]

This is the logic of atheists. You're only smart if you suck up to them and completely agree with them.😂😂

[@abhilashkrishnan2833]

Ayn or Ayaan. Difference are not merely in spelling . But in a whole bucket of ideas and Philosophy . To save the world Ayaan could have removed the 2 aa in her name and chosen the path of " Reason , Individualism and objectivism" . Sadly she chose mysticism, collectivism and ever tempting altruism. I don't know in which universe christianity is the answer against Wokeism, islam and authoritarianism. It never was and never will be. If you want to save the world, be a capitalist not a Christian.

[@Albert-Arthur-Wison225]

A good deal of Calvinist theology, and practice, not to mention ‘Protestantism’ as it thrived under militant conviction in the erection of modern capitalist enveavours in both Britain and the Low Countries, circa 1700-1850, stands in deep, direct contradiction to what you’ve written.

[@cascarrabias397]

The tribe of Jesus and his teachings. The Western has the Judeo/Christian values printed inside the Bible. The same can be said about Islam, Muslims live showing their values. Must remember that the concept of good and bad is not known in Islam, they use Haram and Halal meaning legal and illegal. Westerners have two schools that differentiate us from Islam, The Roman culture and the Judeo/Christian values systems. And we should be proud of them.

[@benjac9]

“Sad and tragic” WHAT!!! Your audacity is incomprehensible.

[@dylanmenzies3973]

Not that I like religions, but the core is that you need to counter islam with other religions. But it takes some kind of double think to swallow that. Disappointing. We were always tribal.

[@pikapi6993]

religion is quite a new concept. Back then people had faiths. Now faith is something that humans need. It is built on our DNA. People who don't believe in God have faith in many other things. Such as woke ideology, conspiracy ideologie, communism etc. The people have faith in these things and make them their idol. And all of these secular faiths are protecting Islam. The sympathy for Islam is often rooted in the hate for Christianity. The biggest Islam critical platforms are Christian ones. Meanwhile Atheist Ex Muslims are being called islamophobes by their fellowe Western counterparts.

[@dylanmenzies3973]

Belief in God isn't even a faith its just a vague meme. Belief in a consistent reality is a faith. @@pikapi6993

[@vinoverita]

While Hirsi didn’t validate her claim that “Christianity has it all,” the statement is true. But that’s a long conversation. I state this as a former Catholic, a former believer.

[@AndSendMe]

It has everything a culture created under its influence could ask for. Unfortunately that doesn't include reason or a moral code for life on earth.

[@VesnaVK]

Vino, you don't validate your claim that it's true either. Please elaborate. Otherwise, sorry, but you are just citing your bona fides and boasting that you know something but can't be bothered to share it.

[@vinoverita]

@@VesnaVK I didn’t have much time to write - and don’t now either. Suffice it to say, religion is primitive philosophy - and the Catholic Church has a living philosophical tradition that spans centuries. It’s been passed down and developed over the centuries by some of the greatest minds. If you’re interested in philosophy as a Catholic, you will have an endless library of books and communities set out before you. Even Piekoff once stated that if the option was between relativistic, anti-mind academic philosophy or Catholic Thomism, become a Thomist. I have much more I can say on this matter. I’ll have more time today and this weekend. I’d be happy to engage any of your comments or questions

[@vinoverita]

@@AndSendMe What makes you think, say, an orthodox Catholic has no moral code by which to live on earth?

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

@@AndSendMe sounds like you're ignorant but want attention, very excited to infect people with stupidity 🤡

[@renamedplaya8351]

I think it may be a career move. She may even run for congress as a Republican.

[@AndSendMe]

Ah.

[@ahmadbelial9778]

Very likely

[@michaelhart1072]

Yeah just assume ‘bad’ intent rather than engage with what she says. Read dominion. She’s convinced by the argument within. That’s all

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

Ayaan literally joins a religion of love and you guys attempt to twist it into fear cause she no longer parrots your talking points 🤡

[@Patchaddictedpolymath]

huh? did you watch the same video?

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

@@Patchaddictedpolymath did you? 😂 try again

[@LSMitchell]

Hey guys, I went back to Enlightenment Now and found: "Whether it is framed as the goal of providing the greatest happiness for the greatest number or as a categorical imperative to treat people as ends rather than means, it was the universal capacity of a person to suffer and flourish, they [Enlightenment thinkers] said, that called on our moral concern. Fortunately, human nature prepares us to answer that call." I think the first word "Whether" is operative. It gives the option to reject "categorical" and I suppose also your cogently arguing against Singer's utilitarianism, veil of ignorance, view from nowhere, etc.. Later Pinker will launch into why our evolved human nature gave us the capacity to reason and develop salubrious morality. You guys want to go back and reread. But I could be mistaken.

[@kdemetter]

I can understand her reasoning : it does seem like as atheists we haven't managed to push back against well against ideologies like wokeism and islam. In many ways it is true that christians are being more assertive in defending enlightenment values than many atheists are. The problem is that those christians are doing so under the mistaken belief that that is what Christianity stands for. In other words they have their own enlightenment value which they presenting as mainstream Christianity. But any closer examination would show that it is contradictory. So inevitably, you would end up with a split among christians. A similar split that happened among atheists over the question of Islam. That split basically destroyed the momentum of the atheist movement at the time. Objectivism provides the better way look at it, but many christians and atheists probably hate objectivism more than they hate each other

[@sachalg5720]

​@@terrorists-are-among-usWell she Clearly Said, she Now Christians For politic reason... She still dont belive in a God and that's really funny🤣

[@munafghori4052]

I think she made a bad choice because all the years since she became famous not due to her any work but attacking islam (yes negative view of islam with some propaganda technique and some money can bring you fame) that she made many bad and good criticism against religion and now i wonder how do she herself respond to those criticism she made against religion in general and how she would responds to criticism against christianity. Ofcourse christianity is not peaceful as we can see what bloodbath it does in history but it is changed to suit it to secularism and liberalism and this is the reason even catholics are thinking about changing and having positive views towards same sex oriented people.

[@sabastian-mj2ox]

Someone has to make coins. But that her as an academic I won't book her course.

[@jacksable9596]

Maybe she converted because Christians seem to be the ones fighting back the strongest against progressives? I’m an atheist and a Libertarian myself but I don’t see any of them fighting very hard. Mostly I see a justification why we shouldn’t judge from them. I do admire devout Christians sticking to their guns and not accepting the narrative. They are catching hell for it to. How many rights and much prosperity are we gonna lose before we jump in?

[@science212]

Libertarian position is not good. Objectivism is the only way.

[@Mr.Witness]

That is so laughable. They are literally just the flip coin of progressives and have accomplished nothing but encouraging these developments.

[@dougpridgen9682]

Why would negatively motivated pacifists fight back?

[@dougpridgen9682]

If your mentality is I judge that I shouldn’t judge and I admire irrational dogmatists because they appear to stand for something positive even though they’re bewildered and afraid, you have a lot of confusion to sort through and unravel.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

She's smart and did the right thing. This episode is hilarious watching guys afraid of God poop their pants and imply that she's a coward. She's not and she has proved it many times 🤯

[@dav__71]

Maybe she just wasnt offering an argument and never intended to? If so, you cant really comment on the lack of argument if her focus isnt to argue a point about reason, bht the implicit reason that is transmitted via stories. Also, Shermer is being quoted here. This isnt a good sign for these two, he is a faux intellectual with super ordinary, tired thining any philosophy ubdergrad could trot out far better.

[@itlupe]

🤣🤣😂🤣😂 "...doesn't care about what is true..." I guess the ONLY thing that is true is what these boys have to say.

[@maurices5954]

Don't mind me stating the obvious, but why is ARI spending its time and resources on this? What's the goal here?

[@benbayer5943]

This podcast is aimed squarely at better atheists, who are many on KZbin, who are looking to strengthen their defense of Enlightenment values, by showing them the Objectivist alternative.

[@maurices5954]

@@benbayer5943 Atheists come in many flavours and are growing in number, it's a big market to tap into, i can understand the value and effort to introduce them to Objectivism. Thanks for answering my question.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

I'm sorry you failed to comprehend. She's super smart and trying to save civilization from morons and barbarians that think their desires are superior to God.

[@bear7098]

Agree with lots of the comments. "Enlightenment values" was an interesting & I think loaded phrase. As a Christian I see a lot of value coming from the Enlightenment but am in a position to filter and correct for the unwarranted license that secularism took to strip anything "religious" from truth. Man is the measure of his folly without orienting toward God. You wind up with more & more articulate sounding foolishness.

[@LettyK]

We are constantly fighting a spiritual battle. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[@nowthatsprogress8708]

Thank you for sharing your point of view. I note no mention of Protestantism, which I believe would challenge the view that Christian ethics do not play well with capitalism. Unrelated, Stephen Hicks explicitly tied Kant to postmodernist thought in his book for laypeople entitled Explaining Postmodernism, which was, in my view, a much more accurate placement of Kant's philosophy than the usual treatment.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

Longest most painful "conversation" ever 😭

[@cjg196]

Here are two of Objectivism’s clearest thinkers and advocates, and yet no discussion of maybe the most important question she is implicitly raising. “Dear Objectivism, where are you?” How do you reach people like this who are now choosing irrationality over a reason based value directed life?

[@pastorgscottw]

You can't understand or explain Light when all you have ever lived in is darkness. 2 Corinthians 4:4 "“Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.”

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

I can't believe I'm only half way through this thing 😑

[@lotharlamurtra7924]

By christianity she means Catholic church or some lutheranian thing?

[@davidpaz9389]

Christopher Hitchens had called Ali, and I paraphrase, the most important intellectual figure to ever come out of Africa. Were he still with us in private I'm guessing he'd feel personally hurt by her becoming a believer. Especially since he put so much stock in her. In public Hitchens would hide it by being totally cantankerous towards her in the same manner Dawkins was towards Antony Flew when Flew said he could no longer subscribe to a wholly naturalistic view of creation. How ironic is it to see 'free thinkers' go off the rails when their gods fall? The hosts of this discussion are visibly feeling 'Hitch slapped'.

[@Daash27]

She is better off with you guys

[@sabastian-mj2ox]

Hehe she has seen the light. Let's hope the light is not a train😂

[@jerseyanusa2420]

Christians have small communities that stand together to protect their members. Do Objectivists have that kind of community? It's more than tribalism, which Christians, Muslims, and Objectivists display.

[@science212]

Christians are a mystical cult. Like muslins. Or socialists. Objectivism is the reason.

[@Mr.Witness]

No we have the police ? What are you even talking about?

[@kathryndawson3500]

She should have been introduced to Objectivist morality.

[@Mr.Witness]

@@kathryndawson3500 She had her chance and didnt take it.

[@SamuelLegrandCox]

Protect their members? From what? From whom?

[@doctorstotrust]

Where is the objective perspective?

[@gopaulangappan8407]

Allah is the ALIAS of Muhammad and he so loved his prophet that he left with the last breath of Muhammad Allah 😢😢😢 could not help the Palestinian for 75 years is proof HE died with Allah. 😢😢😢 Muslims waited for 3 days before burying the prophet thinking Muhammad will be raised like Jesus but the rotting body was buried ⚰ 😢😢😢 😂😂😂

[@michaelhart1072]

Tell me you haven’t read dominion without telling me you haven’t read dominion. That’s not to say she is correct but you’re missing her argument because you can’t see where she’s come from. Essentially it’s a version of your values of secular humanism are outgrowths of Christianity and so let’s embrace the story that birthed the values by which you swear by

[@meghannribbens6879]

I grieve for AHA. I don't think her conversion will make her happy, or even less fearful. I wish I could take her into my lab and show her its wonders. What greater reverence is there than in the beauty of nature, and of man's ability to divulge it?

[@gailcarey3597]

God created this masterpiece. We were intended to live and enjoy it with Him. That’s why there is this deep longing for something or someone to bring us home. Christianity is the only faith that requires repentance and the belief that God sent His son to pay the consequences of our sins in order for us to be with Him, forever.

[@pikapi6993]

Scientific studies show that Christians and Jews are happier than Atheists. They commit much less suicide, have a better mental health etc. If you don't like God, why can't you accept scientific research and let people be? Why do you grive when others are happy without adhering to your world view?

[@michaelhart1072]

She’s not motivated by fear. It’s a mischaracterisation. She’s convinced by continuity of ideas explained in the book dominion

[@Albert-Arthur-Wison225]

I invite you to watch the incredible immersion of Dr James Tour, a globally - renowned chemist and nanotechnologist, into the deepest possible excursions into ‘hard’ science, yet, is able to maintain, and advertise, his bedrock-strength Christianity with an incredible fervor.

[@dinahstanley3064]

Spoken by one who has never tasted the wonderful love of our creator.

[@Onlyhuman1972]

If she’s true Christian she’ll find it very difficult to keep slandering Islam due to the fact that the common moral values between Abrahamic Faiths are undeniable!

[@sabrinarodrigues629]

Only Islam explodes people and promise rewards for terrorists in a paradise full of debauchery.

[@cynthiabarker5305]

No they're not. Christianity is based in God's love of mankind, Islam is based on man's fear of their god

[@Onlyhuman1972]

@@cynthiabarker5305 No my friend, Islam is based on three principles, all of which clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran: Fear of God, Hope in God’s recompense, and the Love for Him.

[@dinahstanley3064]

Not even close .

[@Randomest_Stories]

Why is it sad and tragic? I dont like Christianity, but i dont hate it as much as Islam. However, i wont let myself be bothered if she even became islamic again. She has been persecuted relentlessly for decades now. If she has chosen to align to Christianity, it will be safer for her to live a life. A whole community will lend her support. Plus rejecting stupid orthodoxy does not mean you have to reject the concept of God and Spirituality. Let her be. Your atheistic idealism wont save her life right?. Because she is also an ex-muslim. She lives with a sword on her neck constantly. Probably on her children's heads. As a mother of kids if she has caved in.... I actually understand . Plus she genuinely may have evolved hrler world view. That can happen. People change their minds. I dont agree with her view of Christianity.... but i won't even bother to argue...BECAUSE she needs to live a safer life. Being a Christian lets u live free. There is no legal protection by society, to ex-muslims. If u fix that, u will probably not need people needing religious cover.

[@rajuthomas7471]

Any atheist who are 'really rational' and has the desire for truth will be lead to Jesus Christ. He is the only person who can give consolation and peace. It is seen that many atheists who came from other religions and studied about Jesus without prejudice finally found out Him.

[@Weirdomanification]

Unfalsifiable, and therefore meaningless.

[@rajuthomas7471]

@@Weirdomanification In Hinduism, in one of their scriptures called Rig Veda there is a description about one PRJAPATHI who will come to the world to save the humans from sin. He will died on a tree ( sacrificed by the priests ) for the salvation of humans( may be about Jesus). These are written by ascetics of India through their intuition.If human has the power of intuition ( many mathematical theories are formed by intuition only and that are scientifically proved ) the spiritual intuitions may also correct. Still we are not able to find out 90% of the secrets of universe especially about 'mind'. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

You guys are terrified of God 😱 She's super smart and did the right thing. She said we are a sick society. She said we need to unify. I don't blame her wanting to escape religion, she was a Muslim. Now she is Christian. We will commune without you guys pooping your pants 😂

[@RashadSaleh92]

How do you justify both a belief in God and being rude at the same time?

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

@@RashadSaleh92 honesty is not rude 🤯 life is not your safe space 🤡

[@Weirdomanification]

Which god?

[@animo4077]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@itlupe]

",,,even the better people..." I suppose these children mean their way of thinking is THE ONLY way of thinking. Their explanation is reason. The problem is that when one tries to reason with them they scoff and turn away. I doubt seriously if they have ever read or studied the Bible. Typically they strut around in their arrogance and KNOW in their simple little minds that THEIRS is the ONLY way to think and believe.

[@brgilbert2]

You guys are beautifully full of crap!! Of coarse there is your "freedom of speech" and coming from the "Ayn Rand Institute" I shouldn't be surprised by your position. But you have just LOST another important believer in your group (that of atheism and someone to push your agenda) and frankly I applaud Ayaan Hirsi Ali's decision and her special way of explanations that affirms the ACTUAL EXISTANCE of God!!!!!!!!!!

[@jamescawley1244]

As a Christian and someone who respects Ayn Rand’s philosophy (especially it’s metaphysics and epistemology), Objectivists and Christians need to have a discussion because Christians care about you. I know there is a void in your hearts because of the disdain you have for Christians.

[@Weirdomanification]

My blood pumps just fine.

[@jacovichstabs841]

If you are a Christian then any respect you claim to have for the metaphysics and epistemology of Objectivism can only be performative. The metaphysics of Objectivism is built on the law of identity which states that any given thing is the sum of all its constituent parts and can only act in accordance with this. Christianity directly contradicts this by offering a metaphysics of magic. The narrative point of miracles is that God, this divine consciousness, is able to bend the law of identity and shape reality at will. If you genuinely admire the integrity of the foundation that Objectivism is built on then I implore you to embrace it fully and allow no contradiction with your Christianity to go unresolved.

[@dav__71]

Love thy neighbour doesnt lead to disarmibg Israel, thats a misunderstanding of the principle. Shermer like thiking here i can see why he was quoting him

[@cantlieman]

Atheists should use some burnol after this devastating news😂

[@lilyflower1168]

Christianity is NOT tribalism, lol 😆 These guys

[@michaelhart1072]

It can be. It also has anti-tribal qualities too. But what these guys fail to recognise is so is human nature, so is humanism/secularism.

[@lilyflower1168]

They fail to recognize a LOT of things, lol. They also believe the impossibility that nothing created everything--including the lion, hummingbird, peacock, the bald eagle, flamingo, the great whale, seahorses, starfish, the human eye, central nervous system, complementary reproductive systems, the Milky Way, the galaxies, the laws of gravity and thermodynamics, photosynthesis... Somehow all of these complex, mysterious, and beautiful things popped into existence by accident, lol @@michaelhart1072

[@carolburkosky7148]

Jesus

[@WesternMalaise]

What lessons can you learn from Ayaan’s conversion? Well, not only that God is real but that his penetration of human history in the person of Christ is true, and unfortunately, you can’t yet see it. Hopefully your exploration of the matter may allow drops of truth to settle on your minds.

[@operaguy1]

Someone got to her.

[@reuvenbisk3220]

I wouldn’t give up on her. Spiritual growth is a process. In the end she will probably find Judaism. LOL

[@designersunset]

You don't understand what's actually happening in the world. Read the quran and get back to us!

[@AlhamdulilJesus]

Read the original the Bible

[@Apriluser]

Good for her!

[@science212]

Bad for her.

[@goldenmelon6136]

I second that!

[@terrorists-are-among-us]

Failed. You mean failed. You didn't fall. You failed 😂