Ayaan Hirsi Ali Discovers and Embraces Civilizational Christianity

‪@arc_conference‬ PANEL DISCUSSION | Jordan Peterson, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, John Anderson, Os Guinness • PANEL: WHAT IS THE WES...
Michael Shermer Why I am not a Christian michaelshermer.substack.com/p...
Danny Miranda David Perell pca.st/szgl60jr
Dreher on Ali europeanconservative.com/arti...
Why you should become a Christian www.furtherup.net/p/why-you-s...
Colin Wright / 1723828924902146319
Ayaan Hirsi Ali Why I am NOW a Christian unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-n...
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[@Neal_Daedalus]

Here we are, two thousand years later… and he is still turning people’s lives upsidedown.

[@carlotapuig]

Christ is King

[@evanm2024]

He turned my life upside down last year, and I'm a stubborn git in my late 30s.

[@tobycoxon8138]

@@evanm2024how’d that happen?

[@evanm2024]

@@tobycoxon8138 It may be a little cliche to say that Jordan Peterson made me start thinking about religion in 2017, but that's what happened. I (reluctantly) started going back to church, and it took 5 years to sink in, but I realized one day in April 2022 that I had become a genuine believer, it just happened so slowly and gradually that I didn't realize it until I was there.

[@HenryGeorge-76yodl]

The best take on the Ayaan conversion controversy I've seen. Measured, thoughtful, and decent in its extension of grace to a new member of the extended Christian family. Some of the reactions from existing Christians left a lot to be desired, so this has been a real tonic for the soul.

[@williambranch4283]

Humanity = 8 billion sectarianisms ... and those are just the Protestants ;-)

[@_BirdOfGoodOmen]

It's been very curious in the worst sense of the term. I fell out of the faith and came back with Peterson's treatment of Christianity, but it was very 🧠-centered. The ❤ came later

[@williambranch4283]

@@_BirdOfGoodOmen Great ... EQ is superior to IQ. Incarnation is an EQ thing.

[@estheroreilly3143]

"The story of the West is a story that cherishes life... the story I left was a story that cherishes death." So strong.

[@WhiteStoneName]

What about death is life? Death is gain? Trampling down death by death.

[@anselman3156]

Support for atrocities being perpetrated in Gaza is not cherishing life.

[@RightInChrist]

​@@anselman3156 - if you have ears to hear and eyes to see

[@williambranch4283]

@@anselman3156 We are called to cherish life, even as we are dying. Not to cherish death, even as we are living.

[@alvareo92]

@@anselman3156The round of applause for her unprompted statement on that on ARC turned me off from watching anything else from the conference

[@MS-od7je]

Great podcast today. Thanks for your continued consolidation of information.

[@markweswhit869]

Thanks for pulling this summary together Paul. 🙏

[@sellicott]

"Museums are cathedrals to the world of reason." This is a great quote.

[@williambranch4283]

And to the Greek Muses in Alexandria Egypt ;-) How rational is that? I am thinking the Ape Museum in the original Planet Of The Apes movie ;-(

[@sunrhyze]

Paul has obviously never been to the Teapot Museum in Conwy, Wales. A temple of quirkiness and amusement.

[@umiluv]

I always figured it was the universities.

[@jonn_esternon]

eewwwww

[@pizzapractice9128]

What you said about Atheism not being a worldview being like saying white people don't have a culture is a really good comparison. The multiplicity of worldviews in that athiesm is part of what makes it not hold together as a group, but also what makes it plausibly invisible.

[@williambranch4283]

Space, time, matter and energy. Reductio ad absurdum but useful in bridge building.

[@mountee]

Amazing breakdown thanks

[@mickmarshall9254]

I sure do appreciate how the Lord had blessed you with the gift t "see" and express it.

[@dogbark8388]

Timely watching this this morning . I have an appt to talk w a local imam this afternon at 4pm

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Last 5 min are gold. 🎉

[@brandorev]

As always a fantastic video by Paul. Where does he find the time? 😀

[@gaspingfortruth]

“Atheism isn’t a worldview” is something everyone can agree upon. Now let’s have the real conversation.

[@TheDrb27]

The tension I’ve often run into when talking with someone religious or secular is between God and reality. Both are considered the ultimate judge by either. Sometimes the terms seem to be the same and other times they seem so far away.

[@williambranch4283]

G-d is reality. Atheism is a denial of reality (symptom of general nihilism). A particular religious God or a specific idol god ... your mileage will vary.

[@TheDrb27]

@@williambranch4283 that sounds simple enough but kind of ignores tensions between people like Stephen Meyer and Ken Ham as just one small example.

[@williambranch4283]

@@TheDrb27 Ken Ham? Definitely unkosher I am afraid ;-( Any model has to be simple enough to be understood by a child or an ape man. But there are as many "representatives/MPs" aka Gods/gods as you can imagine. The multiverse is too big to be manageable by you or me, so we choose a "MP/attorney" to go to Heavenly Court for us. Of course it matters if your chosen MP is Moses or Jesus or Muhammad. If you aren't happy you can always choose a different one ;-) Ms Ali did. Technically in Judaism Elijah is the DA but for Christians it is Jesus. If the DA drops all charges, then there you have it ;-) You can choose a DA who is a George Soros golem if you have low expectations.

[@TheDrb27]

@@williambranch4283 none of that really lands for me. Talking about a world built from sacrifice of a persons time and attention does. Turning someone into a person with agape is what has a hold on me. This is where the reality and God talk start to become very interesting and JBP, PVK , Vervaeke and Pageau have found common ground with each other.

[@williambranch4283]

@@TheDrb27We don't live in the same corner of the multiverse. In my corner Loki is a good guy ;-) Are you talking about sacrificing your time and resources? So, you think you know what "common good" means? Don't count on the talking heads though.

[@steveisham8624]

So good.

[@ButterBobBriggs]

Paul, I agree with your opinion about Ayaan - we should give her grace and pray for the Lords mercy on her life. If she acts like a Christian, in other words, if she chooses life for her fellow man, then she might fair very well on Judgment Day - i.e., what the Lord said about that day in Matthew 25. No where in that sermon did He say to the blessed on the right; "welcome to heaven" because you believed the earth was created in a literal six 24 hour days.

[@yidiandianpang]

"Lord have mercy on me a sinner" seems pretty key to me.

[@Lascts25]

Awesome great ending

[@anselman3156]

For a real insight into the nature of the London demonstrations, I recommend the on the ground report by UK Column News of 6th November.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Link?

[@anselman3156]

@@PaulVanderKlay Not on You Tube. Just search "UK Column News". This is an independent news site run by Brian Gerrish and Mike Robinson.

[@lkae4]

Our very concept of what a human being is and should be and could be is built on Christianity. That's so difficult to fully appreciate.

[@majm9309]

It'd be downright _simple_ to appreciate if we had sufficient evidence Christianity was true. Because we don't, we should ditch the delusion and simply pursue the well-being of all sentient life together. The idea that we need to deceive ourselves to achieve that is simply ridiculous (or at best only applies to the bottom dregs of society; those who wouldn't behave without an imaginary watcher keeping an eye on them at all times -- and "bottom dregs" here refers to personality/behavior, not economics. After all many of the worst-behaving individuals are quite wealthy).

[@williambranch4283]

@@majm9309 All religions (and ideologies) that are believed in are True, because they are embodied (Jesus par excellence) Propositional truth isn't the cornerstone people think it is. The ability to make deductions is weak, and no better than erroneous axioms.

[@lkae4]

@@majm9309 That's interesting. How do you pursue the well-being of all sentient life in your daily activities?

[@williambranch4283]

@@lkae4 Microbe Liberation Front! ;-)

[@arnoud241]

@@majm9309 What would be sufficient evidence for you? Also, you seem to see God as some kind of watcher, imaginary or not, who will punish bad behavior? In other words, scares people into obedience/good behavoir? Do I understand that right? That is not the God I know, although it sort of might be a small part of Him. I came to see a God of Love, unconditional Love. He won me over. Time and time again I experience that the only thing that keeps me from living a pitiful empty selfcentered life, basically at the cost of everyone else, is his embracing Love. It is that Love that turns my world around, that transforms a pathetic egocentric man into someone who tries to do what is actually good instead of selfserving. His Love heals the world. I wish for you to experience it as well. Take care.

[@sunrhyze]

I was amused by the ceiling of the museum, which didn't need to look like that but was obviously intended to have the effect that Paul noted. All those old churches that had ceilings that looked like the hull of a ship were that way because actual ship builders were hired to construct the ceilings and simply built an upside-down ship hull on top of the church. This according to a pastor interviewed by Matt Whitman, so correct me if I'm wrong 😊

[@EmilyTodicescu]

Fascinating

[@JH-ji6cj]

Be careful the power of suggestion. Interpretations are easily malleable.

[@benjaminfranklin7263]

If you are not pursuing truth, you are pursuing power. I grew up in an religious family. Although, maybe a little secular. My parents were not as religious as my grandparents. But, I turned atheist when I was very young when I discovered that people can lie. If people can lie, then truth is only a model of reality and people can have different models and people can live in a greater state of deception or a lesser state of deception. I didn't immediately identify as this valorized category "atheist", I just had doubts. In my mind having doubts is good because it allows one to keep in mind that we don't have a perfect model of reality, it is constantly subject to revision as it encounters novelty. When the "New Atheist" movement came around and the word "atheism" came into vogue, I guess it was a momentary relief because momentarily I felt like part of a community and thought that there might be other people like me. I started having doubts about the atheist, or the "New Atheist", movement whenever they started talking about the truth. I hear the same story over and over again by these atheists: "If your wife asks you if she looks beautiful do you lie, or tell the truth?" In my private religion of atheism to lie is to sin regardless of the consequences. The framing itself is kind of demonic to me because beauty is largely a subjective category. Inspite of that, if you categorize the object as beautiful, subjectively, and then lie and say that your subjective classification is different from what you actually experience, that is the worst of all sins. Furthermore, implicit in the framing there is an assumption that my wife doesn't want to hear the truth, she would rather be a subject of deception than walk with the truth. Truth in this case referring to my subjective analysis of her beauty, or my subjective model, which she is asking for in her inquiry, not some kind of objective beauty. The devil is opening the doors to lying pragmatically in order to obtain power, and wealth, and survival, and comfort. Note, there is nothing wrong with creating abstract systems like money to facilitate exchange. Money is not a lie as long as everybody is on the same page that it is a useful abstraction. According to me the only acceptable form of lying is when you are lying to tell the truth - when you are using satire or symbolism. "[paraphrasing] Art is a lie that tells the truth." The aim is still to tell the truth. Truth is my highest authority. It is my highest idol, but it is an idol that is undergirded by my faith, I suppose that makes it a non-idol to me. According to me, "Jesus is King" is a kind of sinful idolatry. However, I have come to realize that Jesus may be a kind of symbol for the truth. Jesus, through his living and death and reincarnation, is trying to tell us something deeply truthful about reality. Jesus is the Truth. I guess you can call me a zealot.

[@williambranch4283]

Yes, Truth is a person, not a proposition. Philosophers don't know what theologians do.

[@benjaminfranklin7263]

@@williambranch4283 I think some philosophers know it, if they have sufficiently grappled with the question: "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?" The truth is a relationship rather than something that is self-contained in a single object. Does a rock know that it is a rock? Does the rock exist according to a rock? There is an "according to-ness..." about the truth. I suppose a lot of people are still trapped in the absolute self-contained way of thinking about the truth, rather than finding out what it really is. And btw, you can only find out what it really is if you love the truth, and have a sacred bond with the truth.

[@williambranch4283]

@@benjaminfranklin7263 I know that the smartest philosophers said ... "It is all Greek to me" ;-)

[@swerremdjee2769]

@@williambranch4283 than he isn t the smartest🙂

[@jaysonb.6669]

Jesus is The Way, The Truth & The Life. And Sam Harris showed himself (and New Atheism) to be utter rubbish when he openly claimed last year that he supported the left-wing/establishment conspiracy to deny Trump the Presidency (or a fair election process) because it was for "the greater good". The greater good according to god Sam Harris of course. Regardless of how many evils or illegal activity Joe & Hunter Biden committed, this was unimportant. With that type of logic, what would Sam Harris be willing to attempt (dishonest, illegal or otherwise) in order in order to discredit Christianity?

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

Interestingly look at the contrast and irony of these two statements next to each other 36:16 and 38:30

[@lovemuffin4521]

It’s funny she mentioned the seeds because the kingdom of God is like a mustered seed

[@sunrhyze]

I like "mustered" - it has connotations beyond "mustard."

[@lovemuffin4521]

lol i didnt realize my mistake thanks @@sunrhyze

[@Parsons4Geist]

I just don't understand Jordan's outfit at the conference. Is he supposed to be two-faced from Batman villain

[@carlotapuig]

I often ask myself if I am the only one who finds those funny clownish outfits disrespectful towards the audience and the other panelists.

[@onepartyroule]

I’m struggling with this because I struggle with the word Atheism. In the strictest sense, Atheists don’t have a unifying world view, they just have in common that their worldviews don’t include theistic concepts. The issue I have is that, as I understand it, the word “Atheist” came about to describe a specific group of people who were reacting against western religions and concepts of “God”, so as a western movement it has its own culture and history and characteristics. I think it’s reasonable to say that “New Atheism” is a distinct worldview.

[@williambranch4283]

Like all general abstract words, they have many meanings. There are many kinds of atheists as there are Protestants ;-) There are Hindu and Buddhist atheists too.

[@JH-ji6cj]

They should have named it 'First New' Atheists to keep with the proper advertizing mechanism of prior religious movements.

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

Orthodox generally stay out of political discourse. It is a matter of trusting God. Glory to God for all things good and bad. This is the right way to think.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Orthodox clergy you mean?

[@faza553]

Jesus Christ = Anarchist Saviour, a conscientious objector to force - according to Ivan Illich, as described in: Ivan Illich An Intellectual Journey by David Cayley

[@esterhudson5104]

It’s a slippery slope now, Ayaan.😌

[@jimluebke3869]

Hagia Sophia is a mosque again. Personally, I believe that one of the most horrific decisions that the West has made over the last millennium or so, is not retaking Asia Minor for Orthodoxy and Hellenic culture (and in some cases, actively opposed its being retaken.) This has led to several genocides of Greeks, Armenians, and other Christians in the area. The thorough elimination of the Turkish caliph by the more technologically advanced West, would have permanently crushed the credibility of Islam (especially the militant variety). This in turn would have forestalled most of the truly evil and vicious regimes of the Middle East that have appeared over the last few centuries.

[@williambranch4283]

The West ran away from Ataturk and Lenin as fast as they could. But the past can't be corrected. Alternative history is as self indulgent as The Lost Cause.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@williambranch4283 Thinking on it can still affect our decisions, in the future. I'm frankly shocked that this post has gotten as many likes as it has, I thought this was one of my contrarian takes.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 I love what I usually presume are your contrarian takes. You aren't boring ;-)

[@carlotapuig]

@jimluebke3869 Excellent comment. Every time the woke crowd attacks the West for its past sins and think to myself: "if they knew what Turkey has done to European peoples for centuries..." their ideology should demand that Turks pay an unbelievable amount of reparations for slavery, colonization... everything the West did, the Turks did manifold before and at the same time.

[@carlotapuig]

@@williambranch4283 Well, the past was "reverted" several times in history. In this case I can't see it happening but in other cases sort of happened, the Spanish Reconquista being the best example I know. Christians regained their territories and some churches after centuries of Moslem invasion. The Mosque/Cathedral of Córdoba was originally a Christian church, the Moslem invaders made it a Mosque, after the Reconquista it became Christian again and now it is the Cathedral of Córdoba.

[@mbouw21]

It seems like careerism plays a big role in public figures like-Ali and Dave Rubin-who transition from atheist to Deist/Christian . Review the experience of Theresa Mcbain. Did she “find God in music” or need a career pivot after burning bridges and being held accountable in humanist circles ? You decide. There are other examples. Conservative Christian oriented groups and individuals simply are willing to spend more money supporting conservative voices . There are way less views and dollars in secular humanist groups. Some of these influencers take a path that allows them to benefit from the support of multiple tribes during their career.

[@TheFirstManticore]

Civilization is obviously the highest priority in Ayaan's public life, so it is natural that she would be drawn to the philosophy or spiritual practice that produces the best form of civilization. This will, of course, be her main public approach to Christianity. She did, also, make clear that Christianity was of essential import to her personal and emotional life.

[@williambranch4283]

Modernity is the ever-growing shadow of entropy, the constantly contracting horizon of human potential. When human potential reaches zero, we are done.

[@WilliamMoore-ke7lu]

Just think what would happen if we all lived the fruits of the Spirit every day in every interaction. We would see the kingdom of heaven on earth. How do we foster this in each other? It is a constant surrender and submission to the Spirit encouraged by our faith communities.

[@Ehennings10]

I've heard her name regularly pronounced as eye-yaan Hear-See Ali.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

That's helpful. Thanks.

[@lkae4]

I've been in the online Islam apologetics community for about a decade with Jay Smith, David Wood, Hatun Tash, etc. Her-see Ali is the only way I've heard it. But she was in the atheist group, not the Christian group.

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

47:44 be careful with that… IT’S A TRAP!!!😅😅😅 I went from knowing to an ignorance of peace

[@williambranch4283]

Islam says, there can't be peace without justice. But justice is a very difficult ideal to balance. Islam has a very extreme version of justice, not compatible with neo-Marxist justice.

[@williambranch4283]

Classical minimalist atheism ... is just one version. One of the stronger forms. But a real skeptic will doubt atheism too, unless it is proven ;-) Part of the reverse Jacob's ladder of nihilism.

[@Andre_Louis_Moreau]

Love this one, and I'm an atheist... or am I? Similar to Peterson, I ended up studying authoritarian thought reform tactics. Authoritarianism originally being of great interest to him. How/why those tactics work, involves understanding cognitive dissonance theory, which is some basic moral psychology, that gets straight to the root of how/why we determine "good" and "bad". Our minds fight to keep our beliefs/thoughts, behavior, and emotion all congruent, or else we experience CD until they're aligned. The point being made by Ayaan, the connection between behavior, and belief, means behavior congruent with a moral authority, is belief in a moral authoritarian. "What do you mean by belief?" "What do you mean by God"? We all know who says that, and then carries on about the heirachy of (moral) values. Correctly so, in spite of other atheists shouting "Word salad!" I've often found myself saying/thinking such secular thoughts like, "How dare the state or anyone violate anothers basic human rights!" Because I'm a good rational, secular atheist, that always appreciates righteous moral indignation which appeals to some nebulous, unknown, higher moral authority than the state or any human being ever. I'd just began studying authoritarian tactics in time to watched "atheism plus" melt the brains of most self professed critical thinking atheists. Bohgosian's 'substitution hypothesis' I articulated differently, in pointing out Christians have a point when observing "Atheists replace God with government"... not feeling it was precisely government. I was seeing one homogenous moral framework, Christianity, replaced with another totalitarian moral framework that viewed all as either oppressed or oppressor based on their immutable traits. Not the government, but a replacement. My views meant I didn't play well with my fellow atheists. And soon it was Christians that told me I sounded like this Tom Holland guy? When I heard him carrying on about moral assumptions, seemed the guy, jn spite of being a historian, had found his way into my wheel house. Moral assumptions being both extremely subtle, and powerful, are the reason thought control tactics are so effective. So Paul, am I a Christian? Serious question.

[@DamienWalter]

Every human has to face leaving the story we were raised in. But the risk is always falling into a fundamentalism instead. That's as true of the Red pill as radical Islam.

[@BeachandHills-hb2pq]

Leaving your story can lead to Anomie or Nialism. Fundamentalism means you beleave your story. Example Is Darwin true is your biology surival of the fitiest? Studys of dieing and age say yes. The fitest live longer the fat and slow die young. Talk your way out of that? So if you beleave Darwin you are a fundementalist. Problem Darwin also says life is random and wants to kill you if your weak or not adapited. That may be hard but not beleving it is worse. You would think i can be fat and ill and still live a long life. As for you assertion we all have to leave our story we are raised in i say no. There are 2.2 billion muslims and most thing western civalisation is corrupt and decadent and dont want to change. There law makers beleve the same thing and countrys punish apostates for rejecting the civalisations moral code wich comes from there religion.

[@callummilburn8204]

I asked a very good person who I respect regarding the Israel/ Hamas situation. He is muslim and stated what do you expect? I stated there are many different ways of supporting a position, that he had a balanced view. This does not inhibit you from taking a position. I find you are the same PVK in providing a balanced and thought out view. It is balanced one that does not take you further away from your position. As a man of faith. I may have similarities and differences in my position, of both you and my friends , but you are both worth listing to because of it.

[@williambranch4283]

Having studied ME history, Islam and Arabic ... Hamas has an extreme Biblical POV. Secular Israelis less so. To a religious Jew, Hamas is Amalek. They are as obligated to destroy it as Hamas is obligated by their hagiography to destroy Israel. Secular people (many Israelis) can't even imagine such things. The rave peaceniks who were slaughtered couldn't comprehend what was happening.

[@NornIronMan.]

Interesting you make that point about museums as Jonathan made a similar point on a recent podcast talking about how people stopped building beautiful churches and starting making civic buildings like churches. You could argue it's trying to mess with the hierarchy. But at the same time it's nice to be surrounded by nice things and Jordan even suggests you make one room as beautiful as possible. I suppose years ago most people lived in pretty squalid conditions and going to a beautiful church once a week was a striking experience Vs the hovel they called home. Nowadays people can afford to live in nicer houses and churches aren't at the cutting edge of architecture like they used to be so the impact is lessened. Since we moved into a period home I've taken a lot of pleasure out of decorating it with beautiful antiques and working to restore old furniture and decoration. But I sometimes worry it is creating a bit of an idol when really my time could probably be spent on something a little more important.

[@JH-ji6cj]

I'm sure Jesus had a beautiful home. If that doesn't land, or lands poorly, ask yourself why that would be? And no, I do not think I have an insight into whether Jesus cleaned his room, though I do think I understand why JBP uses the instruction and don't think his purpose is centered on outside influence. God as the ultimate HOA president seems a bit blasphemous imo.

[@leegrant7333]

Hitchen didn't have the capacity for such thought....If Hitchens were alive today he would still be having the same conversation along with his buddy Sam .... Give Jordan his due Ayaan.

[@JH-ji6cj]

Discrediting the mental capacity of a dead guy doesn't really count in a fight on intellect. Also, your distaste of forgiveness is all too apparent, buddy.

[@WhiteStoneName]

57:05 “have a little grace for each other…leave it to God and the Holy Spirit…” what about Sam?

[@RightInChrist]

I think I get your point and it is good.

[@williambranch4283]

Sam who?

[@RightInChrist]

@@williambranch4283 - Sam with transfigured who gets kicked out of church for heresy regarding his views on the trinity.

[@williambranch4283]

@@RightInChrist Thanks. I heard that as a TLC rumor. Carl Jung says it is a quaternity anyway ;-)

[@mlts9984]

It takes a lot of faith to believe in six day creation. I aspire to a faith someday that can believe in 5, or even 4 day creation.

[@phiswe]

Creation isn't temporal.

[@williambranch4283]

Faith isn't involved as such. That is just a lame atheist trope.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Then where did Time come from? :)

[@williambranch4283]

@@PaulVanderKlay From rosemary ... rosemary and thyme ;-)

[@steveb9713]

I could believe in a 4 day creation if it means a 4 day work week

[@WhiteStoneName]

42:37 anyone else right here?

[@williambranch4283]

A character on Star Trek? Not for 20 years now.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

The recognition of the individual and societal utility of Christianity is a fine first step, but is at best a half measure without the complete rejection of the concept of the noble lie, the realization that the God shaped hole is the pure desire for truth. I pray Ms Ali (Mrs Ferguson?) is able to pursue Christ through some of her presuppositions (and I mine) but... Demystified Christianity as the backbone of progressive globalism, and a justification for Israel's ongoing operations in Gaza... ...pass.

[@givenhawk]

bingo

[@gregorytoews8316]

1:03:56 "look at how the Romans treated babies, look at how the modern West treats babies". Look at how the modern West treats babies? Oh? Ok, I'll say it. It looks like we have a significant demographic of Romans here, they just don't know they're Romans. I love irony sometimes. Hehe. Eating pie, on a quilt, in Steinbach.

[@williambranch4283]

Greco-Roman. Not just Judeo-Christian.

[@EnemyOfEldar]

Dude I know what I stand on. I know where I stand and where I speak from to say the things I say. I look at the foundations and say "wanting". I act like a Chriatian in so many ways. And even feel guilty for thr same sorts of things a Stan might. Have the supposed worldview that it birthed (The scientifically minded enlightenment modernism and post modernism we are inmersed in). And yet I am not a Christian. And that stance has to be acknowledged. Even if I went to church. Partook in all the charity, songs, prayer and service I would still not be a Christian. Because I know reality is real. Thats actually a belief and an artefact of a language game. And that it has power over me that I will never know the full extent of or escape. And I know that one of those truths is no man can raise from the dead. No man is the son of god. Or at least if they are then logically we all are. Because he was just a man. And we are just man. My loyality to the true god, to the universe itself and all its terribleness, requires I deny the divine status of a 2 millenium old Palestinian jewish caprenter and religious upstart. And yet I am also required to be good. To embody all the verbs and virtues that those thoughout all history have said are good and are actually good. Jesus is an example of some of those goods. And I am pretty sure Tom Holland would say I can only have come to that view through Christianity. But I know that is not true. I got it mainly from every other religion. And that everything good in Chrsitianity I have ever heard actually came from Greek and Persian (as in early Islamic) Philosophy in the west.

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

50:52 ‼️

[@acuerdox]

a little funny trick you can pull when people say "atheism isn't a belief bla bla bla" or "science isn't a belief etc" is to respond with: if that's the case then you're not an Atheist, if atheism is that then that thing is somewhere else, and all of these people who take that name for themselves aint doing what you described.

[@williambranch4283]

Nihilistic narcissistic Poindexters?

[@thomassimmons1950]

From Islamist, to atheist to neo-con Christian..."And I get on my kees and pray...we don't get fooled AGAIN!"

[@MoiLiberty]

Museums is where things go to die.

[@lincolndunstan3057]

At around 15:00mins. Why, in the West, do we have to choose between Hamas or Israel and be seen to be supporting one or the other?!! I noticed JP didn't applaud Ayaan's remarks re 100% support of Israel!! Paul, some day give us a 2hr podcast on Phyical Israel ? V Spiritual Israel. I'm tired of the unjustified glory assigned to the nation that murdered my Saviour!!

[@croinkix]

You kind of have this sort of framing around protestant evangelicals or pentecostal hesitant or outright deny Christianity to be a religion because they need to wage war on spirit of religion because pharisees were religious...or seeking the manifestation of the holy spirit. Plus its also a good way to manipulate people into rhetoric game when evangelizing.

[@magnusdanielsson2749]

I have for a number of years now thinking how we need a modernized christianity that can speak to the modern sekular, liberal consumerist society. I still dont know what it should look like. But I do feel that people need to come together in church, in communion with each other. The west cant survive in this nihilist godless spiritual void. And especially now when were in a holy war with the islamist. We need that unifying force.

[@JH-ji6cj]

44:00 I think what rubs me the wrong way about Western Society 'acting Christian' is that I dont see the difference between that framing and Western Society being able to rightfully describe how Christians ACT SECULAR. It reminds me very much the culture war between those that identify in Black/White camps where 'acting Black' or 'acting White' get somehow legitemized. Meaning, that I don't find it constructive for you to point out how important it is for religions to get updated while simultaneously withholding the mystical belief that an ancient all-knowing Communist-social-central-planner god created everything with a description of how all those everythings should operate. The fault is in describing a rarionalist view as one where rationality is also Central Planning and failure (both religious and secular here) to see rationalism as a morphing agile component akin to an evolutionary perspective, where new information requires new calculations.

[@williambranch4283]

Ignorance even in the Church ... when I was young, I taught Church history. I left it to the clergy to teach the Bible.

[@DaviRenania]

It will be funny when all of those Secular Civilzational Christians, as they explore the trunk deeper, find the roots on the fountational stone -- with only the Bible right beneath it.

[@chrisyoung2179]

We really see the horseshoe connection of the creedal, propositional Christians who reject Ayan’s conversion shaking hands with the Michael Shermer argument where he rejects her conversion as real because she doesn’t proclaim specific propositional takes

[@williambranch4283]

The Joy Of Sects ;-(

[@berunto8186]

I don´t understand why some people insist that Atheism is a worldview when a worldview is based on how someone views the world and not how someone doesn´t view the world. How do you compact all the things that you do not believe in into a worldview? You don´t. I am an Atheist but my worldview is based on a bunch of different things, even Christianity to some degree, but not on my disbelief in a god concept. I would argue that Secularism has existed before but never to this extend. If I recall correctly the Chinese did have laws that refrained from favoring one Religion over another. I wouldn´t be surprised if there were more that tried this but ultimately one Religion opressed the others. What really paved the way for the Secularization that we know now was Science, it took the work of a bunch of different people from different cultures (and the fight against Religion which the Middle East lost). A bunch of people love to attribute Secularism to Christianity but that is not the whole truth. And we should not act as if Christianity came up with all their values without any influence of other Cultures either. Judaism and Zoroastrianism is rooted deeply in there. I would say it is just another step on how we are figuring out Ideologies that serve us better than the one before. I am pretty tired and hope this made sense.

[@ronzack4572]

Your worldview is SECULAR HUMANISM, as it's the worldview that 99% of today's atheists embrace. Hence, secular humanism is your religion. But all that secular humanism is, is Christianity without Jesus. It has precious little to do with science, as many great scientists in the past and even today have been Christians. As for Christianity having been influenced and being superficially similar to other religions is well known and isn't the least bit remarkable, because all humans are programmed to be religious in one way or another, even those that came long before Christianity. The real issue is whether or not Christianity is superior to other religions or not, and to figure that out you need to know it's unique in it's propositions.

[@berunto8186]

@@ronzack4572 Come on man. Humanism is a non-religious philosophy. Secular Humanism is not Christianity without Jesus as it is not just a bunch of claims. It doesnt have any of the genocidal stories, the threats of eternal punsihment, it doesnt condone slavery, it doesnt discriminate against Homosexuals and it doesnt claim a bunch of things that contradict reality. There is a difference between scientific work and what Scientists believe in. There are Scientists that believe that Evolution is false but the scientific work proves them wrong. Science is by definition a secular field. I dont care if Christianity is better than all the other Religions. I care about truth and Christianity is not built on truth. It is built on other Religions and sprinkled with historical ficton. Christianity just serves the purpose of keeping people in line.

[@swerremdjee2769]

i didnt watch most of the arc vids and didnt watch this, but after watching it i see she is worse than what i already thought of her. she made some very alarming statements, like its clear who the enemy is or we know its face, from experiance with her i know who she is talking about. did i hear she is from kenia, because wel all know she is somalian and it clearly visible from her facial features? did you just say islam took down the towers? i watched this video because i wanted to see if i maybe was a little to mean, but no i wasnt🙂 for me there were multiple red flags in this video which i didnt hear you mention.

[@lesliecunliffe4450]

Michael Shermer's claim that atheism is not a belief but simply the absence of a belief in god is a delusion. Wittgenstein exposed the sleight of hand in such thinking in this way: “All that philosophy can do is to destroy idols. And that means not creating a new one - for instance as in “absence of an idol”. It follows then that Shermer has a motivated belief, he believes in the absence of an idol. (By the way, just in passing, in a poll of professional philosophers carried out in the US in 1999, Wittgenstein’s Philosophical Investigations was voted the most important work of the 20c.) If atheism is just absence of a belief in a god, why is the atheist philosopher John Gray (2018) able to describe these seven types of atheism in his recent book of the same title: 1. so-called ‘new atheism’ - ‘which contains little that is novel or interesting’; 2. atheism as ‘secular humanism’ - ‘a hollowed-out version of the Christian belief in salvation in history’; 3. ‘atheism as a kind of religion from science’ - ‘a category that includes evolutionary humanism, Mesmerism, dialectical materialism and contemporary transhumanism’; 4. ‘atheism as manifested in modern political religions, from Jacobinism through communism and Nazism to contemporary evangelical liberalism’; 5. atheism - of ‘God-haters’(anti-theists); 6. atheism - ‘which rejects the idea of a creator-god without having any piety towards “humanity”’; 7. atheism - as ‘mystical… negative theologies, all of which in different ways point to a God that transcends any human conception’? Michael Shermer makes me think that there might be an eighth form of atheism: grifter atheism - one who makes money and gains celebrity by so-called having no beliefs

[@daanvangeijlswijk7787]

The reason we have judges is to avoid people to take revenge themselves. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Hirsi Ali, is the victim here that acts as judge. It is obvious that her wrath is personal and has very little to do with religion anyway. Religion for her seems rather as something that can harm or help you. Sort of utilitarian. Any girl with a negative story in a christian ambiance can tell the same story and she could than turn to islam. This is all about identity, wrath, trauma, etc. Nothing to do with religion really, just institutional identities. Taking sides and all that. Intellectually or spiritually I see nothing to learn from her. Maybe in the sense of courage yes. I hope she can heal her wounds at some point.

[@williambranch4283]

PVK seems unwishful for the 1950s small town American stereotype. Maybe because he wasn't brought up that way (and neither was I).

[@patrickbarnes9874]

One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic. Church.

[@chrisyoung2179]

Did she adopt the civilization? Or did the civilization adopt her?? Plenty of OT characters to insert here.

[@williambranch4283]

Is the West even civilized?

[@piushalg8175]

The so called Abrahamic religions may have things in common. But there are also huge differences. Islam for instance is a fundamentally political religion because it has at its core the claim that Islam has to rule the world by islamic law. That is the God given mission to the isalmic community. On the other hand Judaism is a religion which is tightly connected with the ethnic narrative of the jewish nation. Neither is the case with Christianity. Christianity is mere religion, period..For faithful muslims the notion of a secular state is blasphemy because there is only one lawgiver. And this lawgiver is Allah. Moreover land that has been under muslim rule has to be reconquered. That is why Muslims cannot tolerate Israel and have to get rid of it if possible. And that is way there won't be peace in the Middle East..

[@endpc5166]

To understand Ayaan's becoming Christian understand, besides her epiphany from Tom Holland's excellent book *"Dominion",* that she is passionately opposed to Islam from her own experience. Ayaan recognizes that Christianity is still a major bulwark against the rising threat of Western Civilization-killing Islam, as it was at the Battle of Vienna 1683 and the earlier constant battles of Byzantium against the attacking Muslim hordes that bought time that has saved us all. Islam, never reformable, is our constant enemy that still demands its Muslims bring the whole world under Islam's totalitarian rule. Christianity is needed in this fight for it religious fervor