Objection to B0XX Nerfs

[@zigafide]

i just hit a lick with the boxx

[@fibbintiggins2858]

Lmao

[@Rowann1]

real

[@Cobbbler]

Regardless of what you think about the changes, the BOXX, or Hax in general...the fact that this committee *clearly* didn't consult Hax about why the BOXX currently works the way it does, and what the consequences for the changes would be, is just plain hubris (or possibly incompetence, or both). Not saying they needed to listen to everything he's saying, but Hax is obviously a VERY meticulous person who thinks out his design decisions very carefully, and he's one of the most knowledgeable people in the scene about inputs and mechanics in Melee. Getting his input ahead of time is the VERY least they could have done, even if they don't agree with him about the changes.

[@M7md_n29er]

Hax is literally Shadow banned from the community. Hax fixed many of the issues the committee had just recently addressed, years ago. The committee also have relationships with 99% of TOs. These TOs will sign and approve these horrible changes without caring about the consequences or what hax has to say. Mark my words.

[@narddog2151]

It's unfortunate but he has no one to blame but himself

[@thatkidkim]

he rly doesnt hax did one bad vid and even though some of the points were well founded and fixed in his 3.0 vid and even after giving everything up and apologizing hes still banned while leffen hasnt backed up or apoligized for the several shitty things hes done in his past (bullying someone with a hearing disability and other cases of him just being an ass) is still propped up by TOs and the community at large)@@narddog2151

[@jinto_reedwine]

​@narddog2151 Two wrongs don't make a right. Hax being banned from events and Hax having informed opinions about the state of the game are two different things. To me, it just comes across as the committee being petty. I'm not saying they have to agree with everything, but as it stands it appears they just ignore him.

[@ZeldaFanZordecai]

​@@narddog2151You're an idiot lmfaoooo no, again you're wrong, it's the UNDENIABLY childish committee that is at fault. Not the innocent guy that was right about Leffen's deranged egomaniac ass in the first place that never even should have been excluded from the scene.

[@MrKyle700]

To be honest, I find the controller committee to be a little childish or argumentative by not including you in discussions before submitting their proposal. You are the main manufacturer of the most popular arcade style 3rd party controller. You know more about melee mechanics like this than just about anyone. They *know* you don't agree with their changes, and that this would be contentious, and chose to publish their ruleset anyway without consulting you. Disappointing and childish from them, even if you do have bad blood in the past with them.

[@zachstarattack7320]

based

[@narddog2151]

I somewhat agree, but he’s banned from events so they have every right not to include him. That would set a pretty bad precedent for future bans

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

@@narddog2151 Banned from events doesn't mean they can't talk to him, it means he can't compete. Hax (and his team) are PLAINLY the most knowledgeable people about the subject, there's no excuse to ignore that expertise.

[@narddog2151]

​@@user-et3xn2jm1u I disagree, I think including a banned player in a high-profile community project undercuts the whole point of issuing a ban and sends a bad message. You might not like it or think it's fair but it's at the very least a reasonable justification. Actions have consequences.

[@narddog2151]

Honestly the whole 1.03 thing showed me that Hax doesn't properly understand his situation. Trying to push a mod while being banned just comes off like you're trying to skirt it. Why even give the committee that ammunition against you? I feel for him but that's a really dumb move.

[@aguy3082]

Good to see the Melee TOs are keeping their priorities straight while tourneys are being shut down for lack of licensing

[@CptShrimps]

I really appreciate the in-depth explanations as always! Hopefully the committee will take this video into consideration and see through the common misinformation surrounding box controllers.

[@fishcrimes]

Thank you for advocating so passionately for the box!

[@ziwuri]

not just for the box, but for the whole melee community

[@tormint5294]

I mean he made the box, so there's no way he wouldn't be passionate about it

[@fishcrimes]

@@ziwuri excellent point

[@fishcrimes]

@@tormint5294 people like you make the box discourse less productive by assuming box players and business owners come from a point of self-interest. You should address the points in the video instead of hax’s character

[@yellow4525]

Well yeah it's a product he sells and nefing it might cause him to lose money

[@SufferDYT]

Perfect utilt out of crouch is free on controller if you grip the stick like plup does. With the index finger acting as a back stop, you can smash the stick up after cc'ing to get an immediate uptilt without the risk of getting a tap jump.

[@Acryte]

Yea, I call that a finger guard, and it's quite effective.

[@cameronwark4990]

🤯🤯

[@AK-fu8ij]

Just beat super monkey ball on master and youll be able to uptilt whenever you want

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@SpookySSBM]

Coordinate fuzzing is one of the least melee player ideas I've ever seen in the melee community. it's like if the sm64 community banned carpetless from 120 because it's too hard smh my head

[@ThaMxUp]

I like the fact that you're not only bringing light to changes that would hurt the boxx, but also bringing light to changes that would give the boxx unfair advantages, it shows that even if you do have some biases, you aren't letting that get in the way of what your own testing and research shows would be best for parity across controllers

[@MasaKaneshiro]

inb4 naysayers ignore the content of the video, offer no specific evidence and just go, BuT tHe BoXx Is BrOkEn Am I rItE?

[@SpectreXS]

Imagine requiring a digital controller to randomize its inputs instead of using a proper software mod rather the ancient garbage currently in use. The smash community is always its worst enemy.

[@r3aperrising984]

It's amazing how logical Hax is about all this stuff. His rationale makes everyone else talking about the subject sound uninformed, he is just so knowledgeable about how the game mechanics work and what buffs/nerfs would actually do in-game. Gotta give you your props Hax, you've put in the work on this, and it shows. I hope the committee listens and brings you and Altimor on board to solve these issues in a fair way that brings all controllers to closer parity and fixes the inherent problems with Melee's mechanics.

[@kingkurtis]

holding click on the video plays it at twice the speed

[@rraaiin]

no way its the surf person

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

As an avid box hater, I have to agree some of these nerfs are just strange. Like coordinate fuzzing is just a bit strange but I get it since it's been hard to hit the exact same value on repeat with a normal controller even with notches.

[@Y4LDA]

It is b cause some of the solutions are uninformed and a bit impulsive. The Neutral SOCD choice was just stolen from Hitbox nerfs following the past couple years of FGC discussion. The viability of nerfs for leverless controllers in those games hinges on the fact that certain characters get more intuitive controls, like charge characters and grapplers that use 360/720 inputs. In melee it'll just fuck with your dash inputs, which isn't intuitive at all considering the GameCube controller NEVER has this problem unless your controller has dash back problems. At what point did we go from fixing inconsistencies to manually programming them back in due to "compromised" competitive initiative?

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

​@@Y4LDAI agree socd scrubbing is strange for this.

[@mymyscellany]

I feel like coordinate fuzzing in particular is very intuitive as a nerf. Why should a box controller be able to hit an EXACT coordinate consistently, something completely impossible on a game cube controller?

[@Pslamist]

Yeah man. The arguments in favor of the nerfs are all based on how people feel, not the mechanics or anything. I'm really hoping this video makes a difference.

[@chocolatemilk124]

@@mymyscellany Pretty sure goomwave and Phob can do this

[@nMOGssbm]

Really appreciate you fighting the neutral SOCD, would not have appreciated being able to “miss” my dashes while GCC is completely fine. Also, I think adding Z-jump into software for free would be an extremely healthy change for GCC and I really hope it goes through.

[@TheTechnopider]

You really won't miss ur dashes on NSOCD. in all likelihood, they will just come out a handful of frames later (depends how many frames of overlap you need) A neutral input doesn't break a dash dance

[@yScribblezHD]

@@TheTechnopiderNeutral SOCD will definitely cause people to miss dash dance. On GCC, when you dash dance you're moving your stick through neutral all the time (this is fine, granted it's probably not usually polled exactly at neutral). No one is saying that a neutral input breaks dash dance. It is most intuitive to press Left + Right repeatedly to dash dance on the box. Given Neutral SOCD, pressing Left before you've completely let go of right will cause a neutral input, which would break your dash dance most likely unless you decide to input Left again (which ofc no one dash dances like that lol). So usually you'll get Left, Neutral, Left for example, which will cause you to fail your dash dance unless you press Right again (which would be for your following iteration of Left then Right).

[@TheTechnopider]

@@yScribblezHD That isnt how it works, at least, not how its implemented in the current committee firmware. NSOCD comes with reactivation, so you dont need to repress left, the moment right is released, left will trigger as long as it is still held

[@yScribblezHD]

@@TheTechnopiderYeah in that case it'll most often lead to a few lost frames between when you expect to dash in the other direction and when you actually do. I could see that being an absolute PITA in terms of dash dance spacing though. Likely won't result in missed dash dancing with normal execution. It would probably make me feel the feedback between presses and my character much worse, making my spacing pretty poor on dashdance heavy characters at least until I adjusted to always letting go of the other direction.

[@ArchiveDart]

This is a great video!! If I could suggest, closed captions would be great! I know it’s a bit unnecessary… but I would love to watch your guides and videos in CC.

[@zachstarattack7320]

he speaks the most vland english. you dont need captions

[@ArchiveDart]

@@zachstarattack7320 I’m also hard of hearing, and it could really help. I don’t mind playing without CC, but it does get frustrating when I can’t hear or understand something.

[@tsrenis]

​@@zachstarattack7320fun fact, deaf people exist

[@gavinwarren9705]

@@zachstarattack7320Some people do!

[@AdmiralEggroll]

"did I hear him right...?" "WANK SDI IS A METHOD...."

[@nahometesfay1112]

Wank SDI is a common method in Smash 64. If you see a person use the technique in practice it's pretty obvious where it gets its name. People also call it Wizzy SDI since he's the only top Melee player who uses it.

[@AdmiralEggroll]

ty for repeating what hax said in the video @@nahometesfay1112

[@joshk147]

Hax should be on the committee

[@yas2ne19]

goat hax$ just dropped a vid i click

[@IzzyIsntReal]

I say we should push this game to its limits 🤷‍♂️ #NoNerfs

[@triumphytv]

Who is on this Committee and how do we literally never have to hear from them again?

[@YOU_WILL_NEVER_BE_A_WOMAN]

i guarantee u half of them are men dressed as women

[@FP-ih1lu]

Carvac and practical tas

[@thebigdug]

​@@FP-ih1ludid they just appoint themselves via Twitter or what?

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

If they're going to make these arbitrary changes they might as well go through with it and ban non-pad controllers. Making arbitrary changes that introduce RNG is in no way the correct path forward. Ignoring the single most knowledgeable source about hitbox controllers is also incredibly short-sighted. These ruleset changes are anti-competitive and are a bad look for the community. edit: Also, the community has already gone through buffs for the GC controller, so Hax's solution makes a ton of sense.

[@FerociTii]

Hax$ w the truth

[@spaghettiking7312]

There are people who require the boxx. Let them play. We should allow as many people to play the way they want as possible.

[@LegitBacKd00rNiNJa69]

No nerfs to box. let the game evolve and save the fingers and wrist!

[@danielbojkovski723]

Even the most extreme angles? Perfect coords with ICs or pika up B? What about extra buttons or macros? I feel like some nerfs are pretty much necessary, the question is where is the line.

[@OrezOP]

⁠​⁠@@danielbojkovski723ICs desyncs on B0XX + macros are already banned lol

[@jiaan100]

​@@danielbojkovski723bring on the perfect angles imo. Wavedash characters need it(source: my gut), and it's not like pika and icies are unbeatable S tier problem characters.

[@PoorStargazer]

As someone who has tendonitis YES

[@AthenaSSBM]

thank you hax money I bet this video is going to be epic

[@bugs389]

Thanks Hax ❤

[@Phantom_madman]

The fact that TO’s are considering to ban the B0XX without knowing how it works is insane

[@OrezOP]

Despite B0XX being around for almost 5 years, there are only around 4-5 B0XX players in the top 100. Statistically, there is zero evidence to support the claim that B0XX is broken.

[@benjaminshields9421]

This is a horrible way to see it. Despite the game being out 20+ years, Yoshi only really was seen as formidable until recently and only won a tournament *very* recently. The fact that something isnt doing good yet is not fully indicative of its capability to do so.

[@shuikai272]

but why are we even debating this and spending all this time making firmwares when there isn't a problem that needs solving?@@benjaminshields9421

[@rrob1487]

​@@benjaminshields9421so you're saying box players should never be able to do well?

[@NeonDart]

I think being capable of doing things GameCube controllers cannot do is definitely evidence of it being broken.

[@medea6341]

@@NeonDart What technique can the b0xx do that a GameCube controller can't? Not techniques that are easier or it's "better at", but what techniques are not possible on a GCC that are possible on a B0xx? Please list them.

[@saymehname]

Haxx don’t worry. You will be vindicated when Nintendo inevitably kills this game.

[@houndsol]

hax we love you, you made it possible to be sick at this game without self destruction

[@benjaminshields9421]

19:13 Even with physical feedback, the time for the human body to respond to that physical feedback is so much longer than the travel time of both a stick and the travel time nerfed leverless. If you react to where your stick is *during a full speed motion*, youre either inhuman or youve convinced yourself to believe you have inhuman reaction times when really youve just practiced what that motion feels like.

[@anthonypicciano7934]

This is much more cohesive and well thought out idea for game balance than the proposed nerfs

[@DzlDizzleDzl]

thanks chef hax

[@michaelharris1884]

I mean why don’t we all just play on Boxxs, that would make playing melee safer for everyone

[@LANBobYonson]

It’s really annoying this committee and hax are opposed rather than working together. It’s weird cuz UCF was like a tiptoe of changes to controllers like usually those sort of changes lead to bigger ones but the same people who made UCF a reality are now trying to nerf the b0xx rather than go further with UCF. They don’t have to do all of Hax’s proposed changes to ucf but make controllers as good as they should be (work consistently) ffs before you complain. You can’t ban b0xxes but you can do what you can on your end to compete with them and no one will be mad.

[@zigafide]

free hax money

[@triumphytv]

They got rid of banning the b0xx when they let people be able to play on keyboard with dolphin. People complaining about this are very uneducated to the many different hardware mods that are used other than the b0xx. Salty humans

[@langezeit6926]

Coordinate fuzzing is a bad idea, just like tripping in brawl. On a regular controller its not random. The box exceeds human limitations but the compromises are apparent. If people win all the super majors on boxes we might have an issue but thats not the case. *Cough* goomwave *cough*

[@Coolbeans554]

If people won all super majors on boxxes your argument would shift to “everybody’s doing it already, lmao just buy a boxx idiot😂”

[@beemadden293]

ofc u didnt know what was going on u played falcon XDDD like this post for good luck

[@chriscastle1629]

based

[@zachstarattack7320]

adding RNG on b0xx coordinates is insane. Some of the points are ok

[@flop22222]

Its hard to see that youre clearly the most educated on how the game works and yet your input isnt considered for the direction the game is going in. Ive always respected your work and dedication to it despite this treatment.

[@alan_e_]

It's because the melee old guard and fans who follow them are a bunch of clowns

[@pauldaulby260]

Unfortunately your argument that anything that isnt a hard limitation is arbitrary and therefore shouldnt be done isn't actually a valid argument. Arbitrary but better is still better arbitrary is not actually a negative, you have to argue whether the arbitrary change is good or not for other reasons

[@pauldaulby260]

You can fail to dash on gc, though it's for being too slow, not too fast

[@pauldaulby260]

Wavedash lengths being rng isn't a thing the committee sees as bad so your point that that's a reason to not do something won't land

[@samusaran1275]

Melee community is going through its gayest phase right now

[@DarkAuraLord]

and that's saying something, because Prog doesn't even commentate anymore!

[@Cormy1]

The Gamecube controller cannot physically input 2 separate directions without letting go of one, the same as the SOCD requirement. The stick necessarily moves from making 1 input to the other in order to change directions, which you can emulate on the box by using 1 finger to swap directions. That is the NSOCD penalty the Gamecube controller has, the requirement of moving the stick from 1 side to the other. If you'd only use 1 finger, you would be subject to that same restriction of being unable to exist in 2 places at once. The possibility of using 2 independent fingers that can actuate 2 opposing directions simultaneously on the B0XX without going through any transition periods is why SOCD is required. SOCD enforces the same physical restrictions to the B0XX as those that exist on the Gamecube controller. Complaining about the need to release an input is a skill issue. Using C-stick inputs as a work around is fine. On a stick, you must physically transition through neutral/other positions, the B0XX should need to do the same. Not sure why you say the Gamecube doesn't run the risk of a dash not coming out when you can absolutely be polled in neutral while transitioning directions if you're too slow, just like SOCD would cause on the B0XX. That said, the travel-time algorithm could also handle that issue imo There is an extremely simple and easy argument against being able to input the exact same perfect angles repeatedly: It's inhuman and might as well be a cheat. The interface is circumventing skill limitations/execution difficulty. While it is true that RNG reduces the impact of skill, the B0XX already does that by default via perfect reproducibility. The intuition aspect is one that the GC controller suffers from already, as it is extremely difficult to note the exact angle you are inputting before you see its results, the feedback is not perfect. Otherwise top players wouldn't fail firefox angles as often as they do, despite the large amount of time they have to react to the "intuitive" feel of the stick position. It's your opinion that the values you've chosen for the B0XX angles are balanced, and that angles must be mirrored. These aren't facts. The L and R modifiers can also be used, despite the introduction of travel-time RNG. It is not a fact that they can't be used. Unless the rules specifically ban them, it isn't true that they can't be used. Even with them not used, it isn't necessary that you keep the angles you've assigned to the B0XX without them. The non-modified angles can still be nerfed as a compromise if you see the air-dodge potential as being too great, even if there is collateral to such a change. Regardless, I'd rather see these nerfs later, when the "scourge" of the B0XX threat starts consistently taking tournament wins in 20XX. Until then, I think the committee should chill and take a step back.

[@rubadub15]

Yo please give hax some consideration and hear him out at least please. He is knowledgeable at these things and consulting him makes sense to me. Nerf boxx if necessary but do it the right way.

[@wonkywombat12]

currently watching the video and as a rectangle user who is generally supportive of the proposed ruleset I just want to say, most of what you've said so far has seemed reasonable* even if I disagree somewhat, on the coordinate fuzzing I'm really disappointed to see you using the twitter rando scare tactic of being like "OMG it adds *rng* to the controller! the horror!" like, c'mon you can be better than that. argue against it all you want but don't use some dumb strawman. the Pikachu thing is dumb and shouldn't be a thing, and instead of just saying that it's outweighed by reducing the possible coordinates for up b by what seems to me to be a nigh trivial amount you could like, explain the actual gameplay consequences of those reductions. like, I don't actually know if there is a good reason for your disliking it, but I really don't like the argument that you presented here. *though I disagree with the premise of your argument against neutral socd, it's not that unintuitive, it's what I learned the game on on and I've found it to be totally fine and intuitive, you're prolly just used non neutral socd so you find it unintuitive because it requires different muscle memory

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

How is it a strawman when coordinate fuzzing literally adds RNG to the controller. This is something the community has tried to rectify regarding GC controllers, why would it seek to purposefully create the same problem for box controllers?

[@wonkywombat12]

@@user-et3xn2jm1u because while yes, technically it is adding rig to the controller it is not adding a meaningful amount for the vast, vast majority of applications, and just saying rng and not elaborating is creating a strawman in people's assumptions. assumptions like your own, based on the second half of the statement. what are you talking about with trying to rectify it with gamecube controllers? no one has even attempted to do that because it's literally impossible. humans can not reliably target that specific of an area on an analogue stick. like, for context on how minuscule of a difference one coordinate is, the testers didn't even notice when it was implemented.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

@@wonkywombat12 This is explained in the video. The GCC has received fixes to be more consistent, you use these fixes without complaint if you play on slippi. The controller gives feedback about where the stick is pointed while the hitbox does not, and introducing RNG causes other problems which hax goes into. Besides just being unnecessary and gross from a competitive standpoint. Literally never have competitive players asked for more RNG in their game.

[@wonkywombat12]

@@user-et3xn2jm1u yes the gamecube controller has received fixes to be more consistent. there's a massive, massive margin between being consistent as an analogue controller and always targeting a single specific value. it's not thew controller that prevents the targeting of a specific value, it's the fact that a human cannot don that, no matter how perfect the controller is, if it's an analogue controller. you're conflating two entirely separate things. like, targeting a 3x3 grid is still far, far more consistent than any human is physically capable of being.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

@@wonkywombat12 GCC's can target specific values consistently. People make notches so that it can do that, unless you're opposed to that too. And of course, leverless prevents you from being able to target any other angle than the ones that are designed in. Adding RNG to a controller for the sake of making it less consistent is a ridiculous idea, I'm sorry.

[@night8002]

hax for president

[@glltyt]

"but he's banned" yeah i care so much about ban integrity it will affect all the respect i have left for the committee. what if i lose all faith in their ability to make rational and informed decisions, oh no. i can't imagine that. that would be crazy. 🗿

[@SufferDYT]

I'm still banned from riptide etc because I'm not vaccinated, these people are not rational.

[@gabrielmiller7640]

I appreciate your respectful and straightforward tone. I think the lockout windows that the team suggests are reasonable, but I think I agree on the rest of your argument. That being said, I think a large part of this stems from a basic difference in perspective - the ruleset team wants box controllers to function as similarly to gamecube controllers as possible, while you want box controllers to function in their own way, but be equally competitively viable.

[@Lampaluile]

This gon be good

[@peb1840]

Fire

[@purplefyrus5370]

As an avid smashbox user (hue), Boxx is fine, nerfing it seems like an Oof

[@woobiehastelly]

We need a pink falcon main. Come back Hax$

[@ivymuncher]

be the change you want in the world my friend

[@zachstarattack7320]

professional yapper

[@MrLzSmash]

box fox rox

[@SoppyBiscuit]

Box hater here. Some of these nerfs seem egregious but unfortunately their wasn’t many solutions proposed in this video. Also goomwave is super busted too

[@godslayerbiotch43]

try 1.03. it literally evens the playing field for all gamecube controllers.

[@mymyscellany]

hax the argument that fox's "nerfed" wave dash length isn't actually a buff because technically everyone could be double triggering every wave dash input is a terrible argument, surprised to hear you make that. Sure, if you use a wave dash method no one uses, it's a nerf. In real life, the angle chosen is a buff for 99.99% of players. I don't think literally anyone actually double taps air dodge for waves dashes. Balancing around an annoying input sequence literally no one uses doesn't make sense.

[@OrezOP]

If you don’t want to double trigger, then just short hop your wavedashes so your character hovers less in the air. So many notched GCC players opt for the long wavedash anyway due to the distance gained. It’s objectively better

[@thebigdug]

​@@OrezOPshorthop wavedashing is based af

[@AndrosYang]

I think its better if you compare to goomwaves

[@marcunbut1058]

The ability to do things normally impossible with normal controllers is real and doesn't have a solution. Its impossible to not let leverless sticks input 2 opposing directional inputs without making it a shortcut making them able to do things that are impossible to reproduce with any other controller. If there was a way to make it physically not possible to press opposite direction at the same time, then it could be legal. Because that would make them work like sticks and directinal cross. Its not possible to make pressing opposing direction impossible therefore leverless sticks and keyboards have to be illegals. Its as simple as that and apply for any fighting games.

[@zachstarattack7320]

bruh some of these nerfs are literally 1984

[@tsrenis]

why is it that the people making these decisions never really know anything about the game?

[@danielkim1349]

Exactly who tf has the authority to claim what their doing is equitable. Giving anyone the ruling off of their own subjective understanding and preference is wrong.

[@PoorStargazer]

If politics has taught me anything is that the people in power will fight for that power at the expense of its denizens

[@maxono1465]

aight u make some good points but damn like why the f does "symmetry" need to be preserved with the modifiers? It has no effect on gameplay whatsoever if it's asymmetrical. also u can use mod x down to let go of ledge for a ledgedash, its fine imo

[@triumphytv]

honestly at this point just un nerf the B0XX

[@jiaan100]

Z jump can be obtained through hardware mod... So can a spring loaded button that forces itself to release a frame after you push it and works as a shorthop button. Honestly i know this is extreme but im almost ok with allowing that, though not ok with allowing multiple inputs on one button like a perfect timing wavedash macro or perfect galint macro, thats definitely too far.

[@Vyrophyl]

This is highlighting the glaring faults of the so called "controller comittee". Neither considering how Melee and the Boxx work, either due to incompetence or bias, shows that the people involved should not be the ones making decisions for the community in that case.

[@danielkim1349]

Commenting to see if the comment counter goes back down

[@jiaan100]

Uh..who cares if c stick down is an unergonomic position? People can move it wherever they want.

[@jiaan100]

The rest of your points on neutral SOCD are valid and I agree

[@Shnowz]

this is such a chodester thing to do, the games already dying as it is + we shouldn't be narrowing the audience in any way.

[@mymyscellany]

your point about ledge dashing as fox being nerfed by scod because you're forced to release ledge using c stick which is in an unergonomic location- that's literally exactly how ledge dashing works on a game cube controller.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Claw grip?

[@htwa]

goat

[@DrZaiusDrZaius-xp5fw]

uh oh

[@s_gaming71]

I feel like all this is irrelevant now because nintendo basically banned non official controllers from tournaments with their new guidelines

[@jiaan100]

Who cares what Nintendo bans or allows

[@bugnug5332]

@@jiaan100 Unfortunately US copyright law gives the power to nintendo as gameplay footage/streaming is considered a performance of their copyrighted material rather than the streamer creating something new. They could likely do whatever they want off stream but of course they would lose a ton of money doing that. There are potential loopholes like hosting the stream from a country that does not comply with US or international copyright law but that's a whole new can of worms. They could also create a game that plays exactly like Melee but with legally distinct characters and call it Mega Slap Sisters Close Range Fighting or something, but no one would watch that and it would still accomplish nintendo's goal of killing the scene. One thing you and I can do is never ever give them even one cent again and pirate all their games.

[@jiaan100]

@@bugnug5332 US copyright law (copyrestriction law, you have a natural right to copy that these laws violate) can suck my nuts, agorism is stronger.

[@mymyscellany]

I don't understand what "data" would be needed before switching from a 4 frame to 8 frame lockout on up tilt unless that data was empirical data compared between users of different controllers, which you've disputed as being arbitrary

[@EdDevil]

"data" could imply anything from new tech being discovered to new applications. If they lock it at 8 frames but then something is found that can be done on that 9th frame then what? Or if the lockout is at 8 and the GCC can do something within that same equivalent on the 7th frame. Otherwise I think he argues more for it to stay at 4 unless there's any non arbitrary reason to raise it to a specific frame.

[@mymyscellany]

@@EdDevil the justification for increasing the lock out to 8 frames is pretty simple. With the 4 frame lock out, box players can up tilt out of crouch faster than gcc by a visually noticeable amount. It's not rocket science.

[@haz9472]

@@mymyscellany the argument is the number is chosen arbitrarily

[@EdDevil]

@@mymyscellany What isn't rocket science is pointing out that 8 frames is an arbitrary number that they pulled out of their ass and if they want to be respected for their opinions on these changes they should give solid justifications for the specific changes. He agreed that they made a valid point for changing it from 4 frames but is pointing out that 8 frames is just random. And in the same document they also try justifying changes that the GCC can do which then starts to look like it's biased.

[@mymyscellany]

@@EdDevil It's "arbitrary" in the sense that it's a number designed to have parity/equality between how fast it can be input on a game cube controller. The document is "biased" in that it's trying to create parity between the controllers. That's inherently the design goal of the document.

[@danielkim1349]

Thought I made a mistake at first til I found out other comments stayed and my particular speech were being targeted. It’s literally just that too, ur weird asf for that. Different accounts, all different wording, diffferent placing, crazy how your deleting them. Chatgpt stayed so its maybe a wording filter. Maybe I’ll find it or not, who knows through slow meticulous editing.

[@3nzo_]

Uh oh

[@10Gpixels]

Would it be possible to create a box controller with pressure-sensitive buttons, but with the button pressure values mapped to the values of the analogue stick output? Might sacrifice some ergonomics for a more equal gamecube controller alternative.

[@nahometesfay1112]

I remember somebody building a controller like this, but that would be a whole new category like fight sticks.

[@TheTechnopider]

This is being worked on. But it bases output on button travel, not pressure

[@nahometesfay1112]

@@TheTechnopider is it called the flowbox? I remembered seeing it once like a year ago then I could never find it again

[@TheTechnopider]

@@nahometesfay1112 Nope. For a while the project was called the wavebox (probably what you were thinking of!) but now its called the Orca. Its being developed by Rienne

[@isayahjenkins8922]

It was a rienne controller

[@literallyh3093]

BOXX 4 Life

[@dragooon124]

Switch back to falcon

[@AdmiralEggroll]

Come to Brazil

[@Johndavidson4]

Hax, I strongly believe you need to work on limiting 'verbal diarrhea'. Eliminate most adjectives like 'many' for example, and word sentences shorter. At 2:39 for example. The last sentence of the second paragraph could read "The discussion is disorganized and rarely quantifies why the boxx is the problem." For the start of the third paragraph you could put '"In this video I will explain the intricacies of the two controller types.'" Same message being delivered; more digestible. As a whole, if taken the time to revise what was written there it would be about half as long while conveying the same information. Another thing is put down the thesaurus. Instead of using the word 'vitriol' why not use the word criticism? Using unordinary words doesn't make anybody sound smarter or any argument more impactful. In my opinion doing these simple things can make your videos better.

[@soccerplayer922]

vitriol is an unordinary word? lol

[@DarkAuraLord]

@@soccerplayer922 give him a break, he's still in 7th grade.

[@RTU130]

O

[@Goobywoobygoo]

Yeah, it should just be banned instead.

[@AK-fu8ij]

How about wait until a boxx wins a major copemaster

[@TylerClibbon]

z jump should be banned too though, right away assuming i agree with you

[@danielkim1349]

Guys check the comments counter, he is actively deleting comments that are counter productive against his vision

[@jiyucy]

neutral SOCD > 2IP

[@OrezOP]

GCC can’t fail a dash dance in the same way that Neutral SOCD conflicts with dash dancing. It also just feels way worse to move around with.

[@benjaminshields9421]

​@@OrezOPOh no imagine having to practice

[@OrezOP]

@@benjaminshields9421So can a GCC get neutral while dash dancing? You never get locked out from moving with a stick. Also please explain how 2IP w/o reactivate shouldn’t be allowed

[@danielkim2918]

Omg the dedication part 5 :) : Hax I’m calling you out on this. You or your moderators are wrong for deleting my comment. I’ve copied this and I’m going to repost with further proof if you take further action against my new comment. I’ll also have more evidence to bring to the subreddit so back tf off.

[@slim197]

obsessed

[@sem_aki]

to the subreddit LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@theguyincaps277]

Do it in parts than to narrow it down, part 2: Search up the Nike Vaporfly banning. Despite its numerous health benefits, it was banned because of the advantages it presented. Even if it was healthier, it was competitively unfair and unequal. Same with the digitals it’s disrespectful to the one that came before and disrespectful to the standards the sport was created on.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Thank you for commenting a lot and signal-boosting this video in KZbin's algorithm.

[@danielkim2918]

They keep deleting my comments

[@abexuro]

I think there's a few major differences in how you Hax and the committee view nerfs of rectangles and what their goals are. Firstly they care about all digital-only input devices, not just the B0xx, explaining the L-R mod buff. And secondly you seem to care about finding some sort of skill parity in the list of specific gameplay mechanics you identify as being a potential advantage for B0xx users. Whereas the committee seems to aim to get digital control inputs closer in behaviour to an analogue stick. Two very fundamentally different approaches to nerfing rectangles. It's a miracle the B0xx is legal to begin with, it was technically even banned in the official ruleset all the way through 2022(?). It was just tolerated because we don't have a single authority when it comes to the competitive ruleset. I think it's kinda telling that a player like Pipsqueak intentionally didn't do certain techniques because he deemed them too strong on rectangles... IMO rectangles without an analogue stick should just never have been legal to begin with. There'd be way less nerfing discussions and probably more stricter controller modding too. From a spectator POV it is IMO also a bit lame that you can identify two different groups of players based on just gameplay alone. A choice of controller shouldn't have that massive of an impact on how the game is played.

[@danielkim1349]

Have I been banned off this comment section?

[@waywaycracra]

Honestly if I see box in the username I leave im not gonna play against a cheater lmao

[@thebigdug]

"I'd rather give up than learn"

[@waywaycracra]

@dwigt.smorin8855 lmao not at all I just have fun when both players are on even playing fields if im not having fun I dont have to play u and that has greatly improved my mindset with the game I just play to do fun combos if ur playing lame or doing something I dont agree with Ill probably not rematch now I get to have 100% fun I find people who play for fun and with the controller it was INTENDED to be played with.

[@suntzu6122]

They cant ban only box. They would have to ban phob and goom too.

[@danielkim1349]

Another part on a different acc :) part 4: Im so pissed right now, because I had a much better thorough explanation before a moderator deleted my comment. Regardless I explain myself again, you have the Olympics and you have the Paralympics. Two different leagues. Suddenly the discussion about controller controversy and complaints disappear. It doesn’t matter anymore because digital and analog is separated into their equal respective leagues.

[@shoecanoe1618]

This would kill weeklies in my region where boxx usage is high and player count is low

[@tsrenis]

lmao bro it's eSports not the Olympics.

[@danielkim1349]

@@shoecanoe1618well the argument that we’re already too far in is wrong. Just because a majority is illegally doing something doesn’t make it right. Plus as Zain said, if we can ban wobbling in swift action, we can ban boxes. I don’t like the idea of banning them so have a separate Paralympic for them. I mean it begs to question why people without hand problems are switching to digitals? But I do agree, as my friend said he tells me that he’s just convincing everyone to switch cuz if majority switches to boxx he’ll be safe from bans. He’s very actively pushing for “too late to ban” status on digitals. And he knows what he’s doing is wrong and always tells me how busted digitals are.

[@danielkim1349]

⁠plus making a separate paralympics will either make everyone switch and want to compete with digitals or make everyone switched to boxx for the competitive advantage, who don’t have hand problems switch back to controller.

[@danielkim1349]

@@tsrenisif it’s anything to add there’s a reason why the mod deleted my comments for the past hour. It really matters to a lot of people and he knows my ideas challenge his ideologies and what he wants

[@Aefax]

neutral SOCD is a required nerf. the argument against it in this video is VERY weak

[@theguyincaps277]

Doing it in parts cuz mod keeps being a totalitarian, part 3: In competitive swimming, You don’t give someone with one arm, flippers as compensation and call it equal. Or you don’t give a a medically disabled person an aluminum bat. Even if disadvantaged is it equal? No. No matter the changes there will always be complaint as they’re not truly equal. To the subjective they’ll always consider these differences better or worse.

[@romantheranger2699]

calling gc users disabled is rude, i don't get this argument are you saying that because gamecube controllers are flawed even tho we have a way to fix alot of the design issues, we shouldn't because it still wouldnt be equal, so instead of giving the swimmer with one arm another just as good arm, we till him that we can fix his arm but that we aren't going to, and that he should get fucked. but still it lacks any solid reason on why they wouldn't be equal with the proposed gc buffs, worse yet even less reasoning on why buffs to the gc would be bad in the first place, to top it off you hardly make any sense at all, your whole argument is based on things you clearly know little about and is barely readable, please log off.

[@rumfordc]

your comments probably got deleted by youtube for some of the keywords you're using. they're commonly used for harassment.

[@theguyincaps277]

Hax or moderator go ahead delete this comment too. :)

[@theguyincaps277]

Lol this is hilarious. Nike Vaporfly banning Olympics Paralympics competitive swimming Calling you out

[@danielkim1349]

LMAO you deleted the comment

[@danielkim2918]

Censorship is crazy man. Maybe I could redo it and let’s see if u keep deleting it. Chatgpt changed the entire thing :) My comments are getting removed by the channel moderator, which I find to be extreme censorship. I'm sharing evidence on my KZbin channel. My suggestion was to create two leagues: analog and digital. It doesn't make sense to enhance controllers or diminish digital capabilities. Digital formats have their own set of pros and cons, and striving for absolute parity isn't justifiable. Take the case of the Nike Vaporfly shoes. They were banned in competitions due to the significant edge they provided, despite their health benefits. It's a similar situation with digital formats; prioritizing them disrespects the traditional standards of the sport. In sports like competitive swimming, you don't see swimmers with a physical disability using flippers to level the playing field. Or in baseball, a player with a disability using an aluminum bat. Such measures don't truly achieve equality; there will always be disparities and ongoing debates about their fairness. I'm incredibly frustrated as my earlier, more detailed explanation was deleted. To clarify, think of the Olympics and Paralympics as separate entities. If we apply this to the controller debate, by segregating digital and analog into their respective leagues, the controversy becomes irrelevant. Hax, I'm directly addressing this to you and your team. Deleting my comment was an unfair action. I've saved this text and will repost it with additional proof if further action is taken against my new comment. I'm also prepared to present more evidence on the subreddit, so I advise you to reconsider your approach.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Lmao. I hope your comment gets deleted again.

[@SheepHairOG]

moky

[@adrianrenard1262]

This will be the same thing as MnK vs Controller + Aim assist, the boxx is much more precise and consistent because of angle modifiers and digital buttons there is no real way to balance a digital input vs an analog one (input lag would create a weird feeling for digital buttons). The fact that the boxx on itself is allowed to be played in tournaments is baffling to me. I dont know how this is going to evolve but I predict is gonna be in a similar way of how Apex Legends is rn with inputs, one will slowly overtake the other, many people will swap to it and gonna start finding loop holes, more rules will come over and over again nerfs and buffs, loyal people will remain in GC and will always have a hatred for BOXX, which on itself will cause more division and that is something that the melee community does not need, we're already hated by nintendo and are 20+ years old. Hax if you see this plese answer to me this: *What about introducing an analog stick just like the arcade pads? Wouldn't that just resolve every single problem with angles and digital inputs/reactions?*

[@JKJCreationsLLC]

Up front, I played on GCC as a technical Fox main for 8+years. I switched to B0XX in March 2021, and after 2.5 years, I switched back to GCC (using full claw/javi claw, which offers access to more buttons and less abuse to my right thumb). To address your final question - the reason an arcade-style stick is not going to work has to do with the reason the b0xx was made in the first place - ergonomics. Dash-dancing with your thumb is one of the least healthy motions about the gamecube controller. I visited a Physical Therapist after using the GCC gave me RSI, tendonitis and trigger finger in my right index finger. They took one look at the dash dancing motion and said "that will give you thumb arthritis." EXPANDING this motion to your wrist would be even worse and would cause damage to your wrist joint over time. Not related to your question - I switched back to GCC because having access to all angles is, imo, FAR BETTER than having access to the few values b0xx gives you. I have felt the buff to my control of my character and ability to reactively change my wavedash / firefox angle, and can confidently say GCC is incomparably better in this regard. The only advantages B0XX has, imo, relate to flaws in the game's code + the microscopic advantages of consistently reaching 1.0 cardinals one frame quicker than GCC.

[@jiaan100]

Almost every new player will be learning on keyboard btw, so be prepared for 10 years from now when like half the player base is on keyboard or box.

[@RTU130]

Ergonomics