B0XX: The Movie

[@Micha-Hil]

This man got arthritis in his hands and proceeded to become the most technical and in-depth Melee analyst in the world while also simultaneously making a digital ergonomic controller to rival the GameCube controller

[@tree_0550]

You may get a lot of hate but never feel shame for what you do or have done. You are doing the lords work for the melee community, even if the community doesn't really appreciate it in the moment. But for what it's worth you are definitely my favorite creator in this community and I love the depth you go into.

[@hossdelgato6098]

Hax Fucking Money

[@daserfomalhaut9809]

I dont understsnd why there'd be opposition. Just use a different controller?

[@JasonSmith-jv7wl]

@@daserfomalhaut9809 Leffen has made a massive campaign against him for years. Due to his sway, he has screwed over Hax and his endeavors a lot.

[@daserfomalhaut9809]

@@JasonSmith-jv7wl .........why? lol Just don't use it. If it ended up being a problem, TO's would ban it.

[@sohn7767]

@@daserfomalhaut9809 Leffen is Leffen. One time he proposed a rest limit for Puff…

[@Rael0505]

Thank you Hax for making a controller that allows me to keep playing melee even with arthritis

[@sergiomarucci]

Hax and Kyle McDowell, programming a whole controller is an ordeal and a half, props to him as well.

[@DeLewrh]

@@sergiomarucci The programming itself isn't that bad, just outputs and some basic maths

[@TheDjMoogle]

?

[@mlalbaitero]

@@DeLewrh it's still very hard

[@DeLewrh]

@@mlalbaitero No... it's basic maths and some microcontroller output, that can be taught in a day. The hard part is designing, choosing components, manufacturing, quality assurance and so on. Getting those right the first time around is critical, software can be updated.

[@Rossi2145]

The amount of knowledge and consideration going into this is magnificent. Never knew all the pre-built limitations in the b0xx and it leaves me wondering about frame1’s implementation

[@Rael0505]

Frame1 copied all of the B0XX’s design except they removed the pivot up tilt nerf, pivot down tilt nerf, and SDI nerf. Aside from that all other limitations of frame1 are identical to the B0XX.

[@JasonSmith-jv7wl]

@@Rael0505 Did Frame1 get any sort of permission? Kinda seems jank that they could copy so much considering this took a lot of time to figure out.

[@Rael0505]

@@JasonSmith-jv7wl nope they stole everything lol, it is blatant theft. I only buy B0XX because I want to give money to the person behind the R&D. I don’t judge people for choosing frame1 though

[@NinF37]

This is so cool. I don’t even like melee, but I loved this video so much as an engineer. The amount of work put in to ensure it’s balanced with the regular controller is so cool, and I honestly think that is just an incredible thing. 10/10 work!

[@danielwhittelsey2576]

HAX$ is a legend, never tried out the box controllers but the attention to detail and design intent appears to be second to none. Hats off to HAX and the rest of the BOXX team.

[@Alpha4tech296]

Merry Christmas

[@imDxne]

sus

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

This is so amazing. I would never have been able to imagine the dedication to controller fidelity that went into the b0xx without this video.

[@dontaskme213]

The meta would be so cool if all of those difficult/impossible stick inputs were freely available.

[@voxelfusion9894]

That would bring us closer to 20XX lol.

[@rubadub15]

People who want to ban the boxx typically are the people who don’t know much about the boxx. There’s a lot of restriction and limitations to consider fairness. Not to mention you have to relearn the whole game with this controller.

[@dovesr0478]

Imagine buying a box controller not designed by Hax fucking money

[@LactationMan]

Boxx has way more thought into it than any other controller. Frame 1 ripped off the layout but cannot compete with your knowledge of melee. smashbox is a joke. Boxx forever

[@dotd1tdot]

Ngl, in terms of 1.03, I think that mass adoption will only come if locals start using it in mass, since it'll force the majors who are too scared to change anything to change and allow for 1.03's mass adoption. If you are a tourney organizer for a local, please consider implementing 1.03 so we can get those amazing changes to be utilized by everyone. 1.03's tourney lock can be utilized so only one memory card is needed for an entire event (from what I understand of it.)

[@lapplandkun9273]

You guys honestly don't see the problem with this change? I do. It forces new players who want to get into melee competitively to download or buy some mod. It's not worth the effort. Plus, the changes such as auto l cancel becomes an issue for actual brackets.

[@hossdelgato6098]

Powerful material to say the least

[@RayFreexMovies]

@@lapplandkun9273 but thats already how it is with ucf? Whats the difference between downloading ucf and downloading 1.03

[@DemgamingSkillz]

@@lapplandkun9273 almost all locals play with some sort of tournament legal save. Whether it be 20xxte or just normal ucf it seems to be almost the standard everywhere now. I don’t see the problem in just changing the software And in regard to affecting beginners. With the introduction of the latency reduction for LCD monitors I feel as if it would make the game more accessible and beginner friendly as it allows them to work with the gear they would already have instead of having to track down a CRT

[@beszt95]

@@lapplandkun9273 I wouldn't say having to download a mod is a problem. Many players already download 20XX and UnclePunch training mode. I would definitely understand your point if 1.03 wasn't shared for free and you were forced to buy a copy. And not everything in 1.03 will likely be tournament legal, as Hax has acknowledged in previous videos I'm sure. Auto L cancels definitely wouldn't be legal even if other parts of 1.03 were

[@rumfordc]

after 2 decades of playing i still learned like 5 new things about melee just watching this video

[@thefranChise1]

Masterpiece

[@stephenschuster3555]

"This seems straightforward, but"... Bruh this is crazy your work is insane

[@ln8496]

I believe in full controller liberation. Melee should be as easy as possible.

[@martinherrera7991]

Is there a way to have the boxx setup with a normal keyboard? My hands cant handle gc controller and I cant afford a boxx but still would like to play

[@LS-td4yf]

6:41 just map the keys to look like that

[@shrekstacy]

Merry Christmas Hax!

[@Barchueetadonai]

Something tells me "Al-Yami" is likely someone who doesn't do christmas.

[@jufriol8733]

@@Barchueetadonai what the fuck is that supposed to mean bro

[@falcolom]

@@jufriol8733 Middle Eastern sounding name means Hax has a good chance of being a Muslim. Christmas isn't celebrated in Islam.

[@jufriol8733]

@@falcolom not what I meant but aight bud

[@gnardawgyt]

@@jufriol8733 what else could you mean?

[@ssbmelon9555]

This was the Christmas gift I needed

[@racerking5901]

What an amazing video. The amount of technical knowledge here is insane.

[@GoMaDssb]

Merry Christmas meleegang

[@williamomalley6081]

Hax$ this is a short film at most

[@Rael0505]

My only way to play melee is on this controller. I owe a lot to Hax and Simple

[@Pslamist]

Poggerga

[@dahuterschuter]

Last time I was this early Leffen's personality was only a dark diad still.

[@hobbes9631]

Great, very in-depth video

[@BrennanMaphet]

merry christmas

[@Rael0505]

Merry haxmas

[@saymehname]

Thanks for the boxx man.

[@Frilleon]

Free hax ffs. The man has outed abusers, progresses the health of the game, and is a stand up person

[@algar6616]

letssss goooooo good work bruv

[@superepicproportions]

You're the man Hax$

[@KongMonkE]

Merry Christmas hax money

[@33kappa1]

bruh when are you gonna sell more of these? they been out for years at this point and I've seen em in stock once

[@Rael0505]

They’ve been in stock three times since 2020. Their 4th round of preorders is going to begin shipping in February, but it’s first come first serve. They typically only restock 500-600 at a time so you have to preorder early if you want one. They have sold over 1,500 since 2020 so you must not have noticed lol

[@gnardawgyt]

Love you Hax

[@Shnowz]

finally not a single dislike, haxx's magnum opus, his most optimal video yet.

[@thegoodgeneral]

KZbin now hides dislikes to the public. There could be thousands of them but all you’d see is a 👎🏻 with nothing next to it.

[@natenatenate10]

@@thegoodgeneral thats the joke little man

[@thegoodgeneral]

@@natenatenate10 actually, you’re the joke.

[@simplestevevideos7757]

You should consider sending a boxx to mang0. Hes been saying in stream lately that he'd love to try it.

[@angryvibes8611]

Merry Christmas Hax as a controller user ur registry option select seems like a bad idea, im lazy and use cc walk grab as well as jab cc regularly not having both is no good.

[@Pslamist]

Can you brainstorm any alternative to the method he chose?

[@benchico4444]

i agree

[@mlalbaitero]

Wait so is it impossible to do perfect pivot up/down tilts? Or just harder

[@cise3895]

Pretty sure they’re only possible if you input the directional value before you’re grounded and actionable. If you want to do wavedash up-tilt, for example, you can’t do an up-tilt angle the frame after your 10 frames of landing lag, but can if you begin holding the direction while you’re still in landing lag

[@Rael0505]

Pivot up tilt and pivot down tilt are both banned on the B0XX. You can turn around up tilt though. There’s a 9 frame lockout on up tilt and like a 5 frame lockout on down tilt, so you could pivot down tilt sooner than pivot up tilt.

[@albyrt_]

This makes me wonder what's possible for b0xx clones (or even keyboard setups) that aren't as willing to consider restricting themselves to what's possible with a controller. I didn't even know about the single Y value that automatically short hops, not to mention all the other single coordinate "exploits" mentioned in the video. That said, it'd be really interesting to see what's possible going forward with highly specific inputs like that. Combining things like 1.03's tap jump toggle paired with a Y button bound to the short hop Y coordinate (not unlike Ultimate's way of pressing both jump buttons to automatically short hop) could be a massive tech skill shortcut for someone just getting into the game for the first time. I've been playing for years and still occasionally miss 3 frame jumpsquats all the time.

[@user-qr1ts3yq1d]

based

[@achanner2004]

The boxx saved me ,haxx forever B0XX ARMY 4 life

[@teeno32]

Were you pressured into banning analog coordinates or was that your decision? I don't see how preventing one from accessing exisiting game features is healthy to the game. Sure it being able to do double pika up be might make the boxx a more popular controller choice, but that would be completely reasonable.

[@Pslamist]

If you saw the Mod Y up B angle, doing one of those combined with a vertical one with Pikachu basically gets you enough height to get back from anywhere, about equal with GCC.

[@nathannjh]

Limits the game for no reason. Controllers should be designed to allow more, not arbitrarily limit the player. Once the controller allows every technique the game can be pushed to the limits.

[@ValRabbit]

@@nathannjh It's limited to prevent it from ignoring human limitations and subsequently making it the only option at serious levels of play if it weren't banned. The point of the B0XX is to create controller diversity, not let people do near impossible techniques without any chance of error.

[@nathannjh]

@@ValRabbit tools exist to do jobs. No reasonable human would gimp a tool. "I like to bow hunt so we should make guns just as weak as bows". Just think about it. The goal is to win and push the game to the limits of the engine.

[@TZMHBT]

@@nathannjh we already have a tool to push Melee to its absolute limit and it's called TAS. So the theory of "pushing Melee to its limits" is moot. Your comparison of bows and guns doesn't make sense considering guns be replaced bows due to efficiency. This isn't life or death, it's a competition with the goal of making sure everyone has an equal playing field, and that includes those who faces accessibility barriers. It's not worth destroying the competitive integrity of the scene by essentially forcing everyone to buy a B0XX. Realistically speaking, if the B0XX and other controllers weren't limited it would have caused outrage and likely would have been banned by the community.

[@gabrielcastejon7914]

Love you Hax! Great stuff

[@Johnny_Duster]

My 12yr old PS2 controller (The Movie)

[@xanderkprince]

I have one of these and I'd really like to get it to work with Tekken on my computer. Anyone have any advice?

[@owlbeef_kr]

Lets go Hax

[@herbmaaster]

feel free to dm me for my stockpile of Santa Hax images

[@chaoss6]

I had no idea that this much was going into the b0xx

[@GHeinz]

a single coordinate for mid-angle tilt/smash lol. this game man

[@Soulripper38]

I see that this is mainly focused on melee, have you tried this with Ultimate? Are the angles also relevant there, or would we need some way of customizing the angles to get more character specific uses out of it since there are way more characters?

[@Leafygreens48]

Falco down air🎉

[@jufriol8733]

Any updates on the 1.03 memory cards? It’s been months with no updates on shipping

[@tariqalsuhaibany2056]

Inspiring work

[@Haezard]

yo! you and your team made a great product.

[@TheZogeking]

Let's go!

[@ssbMekk]

Excellent

[@2saint]

You can jump backwards with puff??? Holy shit I need a notch

[@cerealbowl7038]

16:40 How do you charge an angled F-smash?

[@Vantavimeow]

What if someone designs a controller based on all the niche exploits you pointed out? 😅

[@To00ni]

the c-stick diagonally down (17:05) doesnt make sense. On gcc, players use c-stick notches to get that angle, but you explicitly didnt match the boxx's firefox angles to analogue stick notches

[@TrueKingOfAbsolutelyNothing_ZK]

Literally my only "problem" with B0XX is that the buttons dont match the GameCube buttons (green a, red b, etc)

[@cise3895]

Anyone know how the b0xx’s horizontal input override works with other fighting games? I know that SOCD causes problems with charge characters in particular

[@drlytwatcher2646]

For other FGs on PC you'd most likely be using the built in keyboard mode, in which case SOCD is handled by the game the same way that it would be if you were using standard keyboard controls.

[@Pslamist]

@@drlytwatcher2646 - Exactly, and for that matter, if you mod your B0XX to have a brook board, the brook board will handle the cleaning instead.

[@Spongario]

nice

[@vicentesanchezjr.3877]

What a legend

[@paladin8843]

My light shield buttons were not working for pc usb connection so I had to go into controller settings in the trigger section and remap L-Analog to 'Axis Zr-+'

[@CoachJohnMcGuirk]

All I wanted for Christmas was a b0xx but I didn't get one.

[@OWmofat]

"Fair to controllers that don't have notches" No, people pay a lot of money to get their controllers notched, we pay a lot of money for rectangles. It shouldn't be equivalent to the cheapest most accesible option since rectangles are not the cheapest or most accesible option. For reference, I do have a b0xx (And others) and the 20mx kit. That's a lot of investment for a controller that is being made worse and worse every time pad controllers bitch about it.

[@benjoby057]

wait hold up this is a really good point how is B0XX being equal fair to B0XX users

[@wilburcobb8990]

so wait, would I be able to do a standing turnaround uptilt with this b0xx or NOT?

[@Rael0505]

You can do turn around up tilt but not pivot up tilt. There’s a 9 frame lockout. Turn around up tilt is fast enough for fox to do nair -> turn around up tilt or falco to do laser -> turn around up tilt as a true combo. But the timing is a bit tight.

[@nickmarble7226]

Love ya haxx

[@Minwu325]

unionize your workplace everyone

[@charohazard]

great product but it does seem odd that you balaced some things around no notches when plenty of players have notches

[@brentondebusschere8082]

Why nerf box to match unmodded gc controller when everybody is using modded? Kinda seems like a step backwords from the Frame 1

[@mystery_1155]

this question sounds dumb as i prepare to phrase it but i still am very curious. so, seeing all of the values being skirted around to create this all-comforming range of values, it left me wondering if it would be ludicrous to add variance to the values targeted (provided they don't cause SDs like missing ledgedashes) it sounds extremely counter-intuitive, but so is nerfing the box to make it more like an un-notched GCC. i feel that this philosophy falls right in line with you comparing the boxx to vanilla controllers. vanilla controller have ranges, there is no possible way to attain consistent control stick values, so why does the boxx get this? is it just because of how difficult the design process has been, is it actually impossible, or what? i'm not advocating this by the way. RNG in a controller sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

[@Fireblaze3127]

You actually aren't the first to suggest this actually, Arte (the guy who made the experimental sub-frame rollback improvement to slippi for higher ping connections) did too. He also suggested that the variance would be lowered the longer you hold a value (to sort of mimic how you stabilize a value on GCC and travel time). It wouldn't be "ludicrous" I guess, but like you said RNG in a controller is kind of ridiculous. Like in the video, hax mentions the angle was chosen based on the extrema value that allows sheik to get a specific GALINT ledgedash, imagine going for that and it's RNG if you SD. There might be a lot of edge cases with the implementation of something like that, and it's kinda just blatantly obvious imo that adding RNG into a controller is not the wave.

[@mystery_1155]

@@Fireblaze3127 SDing is the only thing that immediately stands out as a reason it's not possible. some techniques would also become rng i guess, and that's not really... anyway, it's just interesting to me that ONLY hax of all people has this interest in leveling with vanilla gamecube controllers instead of modified ones. i see a lot who advocate to let loose, no nerfs no restrictions just play the best melee possible, but i see even more who say it's possible to equalize analog/digital to a point where they're level enough, usually citing the difficulty of learning to use a boxx as a reason it isn't advantageous lol. i'll try and see what Arte was imagining, i am interested in it after all.

[@Fireblaze3127]

@@mystery_1155 Well, I wouldn't say it's just hax, it's moreso the controller competitors are more going under the philosophy of getting the most advantage possible under the current controller ruleset (which is outdated from like 2018). However a lot of top players and TOs think with wanting an equal playing field (nintendude recently posted a blog post about this), the biggest problem is that there is a lack of knowledge/resources around the R&D of these controller advancements. And it's not just SDs that are bad, failing techniques in general in a game where people have 0-death punishes feel pretty awful. I can just imagine people rage throwing their b0xx if instead of a shield tilt they RNG'd past the zone, got a roll and lost because of that lol. There are a couple problems currently, you definitely want everyone to be on an equal playing field for competitive integrity, but also want things to be as accessible as possible. For example in competitive FPS games, controllers have aim assist to allow actual competition against the way superior mouse and keyboard. There are huge accessibility issues with controllers themselves due to controller lottery/top player privilege/scarcity of options. A fix for this could be software mods, but huge changes could split the community like 1.03, and even the smallest benign change to default melee will always have backlash from Nintendo. Which is why we kinda have to go with the route of instead of buffing the worst option (like aim assist in FPS), we nerf the best option (rectangles) due to accessibility issues. If everyone can't have access to the ultimate best option, then it isn't fair from a competitive standpoint. Hopefully the mass-produced panda controller helps with accessibility and allows there to be more equilibrium with analog/digital. I absolutely hate the idea of limiting advancement due to 20 year old technology, but it's kinda necessary. I expect after this video, Nintendude and other people who do the controller rulesets will have more to say.

[@soonjini6313]

Why does Hax sound so similar to Tarzaned from league

[@sandycrash8868]

If I had millions I dollar right now I would literally hire you just to be a game dev tester for the game I want to make simple for the easy on the hands aspect

[@LeNguyen-cf5nw]

What about the Nunchuck option? :D

[@qaush]

damn never been so early

[@isidoreaerys8745]

But what if I have bad wrists and a smooth brain. Because oh man a lot of this whiffed me.

[@ry-uw8wf]

👀

[@Cheeseparadox1337]

nerd kidding this is cool

[@ssbpleb]

Imagine needing to do rocket science to play melee lol

[@rickle8]

Ship me my memory card god damn

[@TheJorjj]

whats to stop someone "hacking" the boxx to remove the banned co-ords?

[@smchni]

Second thing what i do with boxx is: Play brawl with box))

[@Afflictamine]

get gamecube controller, make the R button digital, put Jump on R = all problems solved

[@hossdelgato6098]

Hax Money

[@Frank7489]

You’ve sold me on the b0xx. Now can you actually sell me one too? (Cuz I’ve been waiting a year..)

[@Leafygreens48]

Amsa has no shit on falco

[@SCORP1ONF1RE]

You better be making a skinny one, or I'm going to be buying a frame1

[@gyroninjamodder]

There should be no bans on what a controller can do. Ideally people could just do exactly what they want and not have to worry about if they input it correctly.

[@gxhost]

Still feel like box style controllers should be required to have left analog sticks

[@Buttsubushi_OCE]

you can plug in a wii nunchuck to access the banned coords.

[@KewlAlexYT]

Party game 🤣🤣

[@Kawaiilolrofl]

I wish they only allowed standard Gamecube controllers.

[@bryce7344]

As if melee needed to be more complicated

[@bigdro5227]

I'm not that good at melee, but whenever I fight a box player it feels like they have an advantage

[@LactationMan]

shut up did you even watch the video? There are advantages to the gamecube contoller that the boxx doesn't have

[@mlalbaitero]

Get good

[@UberTurtle12]

How?

[@cise3895]

Could just be that the boxx players have put in more time into Melee (and therefore subconsciously gotten better) trying to get used to the drastically different button layout

[@lapplandkun9273]

@@LactationMan Lol, don't be a prick then. He's stating his concerns.

[@camilo1584]

ngl this movie was kinda boring

[@danielbojkovski723]

Its not exactly fucking iron man

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

Nothing against Hax but no one cares.

[@Rael0505]

I care, and this is important with everyone calling to ban the B0XX right now. Speak for yourself

[@nickmarble7226]

A lot of people do

[@buffbear7890]

literally so many people care lmao. your sole perception of the world does not cover everyone else

[@daserfomalhaut9809]

Man that was a dumb comment.

[@Pslamist]

Rare x9 miss.😔

[@joylane6630]

This guy is so foolish. He could’ve just helped hit box develop their smash box and parlayed that into an actual job at a successful company. Instead he acted like a 12 year old and got mad because they wouldn’t listen to him a person with zero qualifications in design, engineering, product testing, and manufacturing. It’s been like 6 years dude just drop it. Ik you’re reading this too

[@wilburcobb8990]

listen, fellow HitBox employee, I know it's sad that we missed out on having Hax on our team because we're retarded but there's no need to keep acting so belligerent about it - I already sent him a personal DM threatening to assault him physically (on our behalf as a company, of course) it's all ok :)

[@Rael0505]

Not true hitbox literally denied to let Hax change their terrible default layout. Hax had no choice but to leave them and make his own controller because they were committed to releasing a controller which would hurt peoples hands.

[@buffbear7890]

i bet you felt tough as hell writing that "ik youre reading this too"

[@joylane6630]

@@Rael0505 and how do you know this? Where did you hear this from? Was it from a self absorbed individual who has previously shown to exaggerate his story telling? Someone who thinks everyone is out to get him? Ok

[@Rael0505]

@@joylane6630 bro just look at the original smashbox, the buttons are arranged in a rectangle as if all of our fingers are the same length. That’s super bad for your hands. Don’t you think it would be much harder to break way from hitbox and make a good controller without any experience? The original smashbox model is god awful. They even put the jump buttons on ring and pinky finger which makes no sense. Hitbox was trying to defraud the Melee community by conning us to buy a garbage digital controller. Hax actually made a really good controller. Seriously just look at what the original smashbox looks like and it should be obvious that their controller is not ergonomic at all. Hax said they refused to change the layout due to costs, and I believe him because they literally sold several of that terrible layout. Hitbox should be ashamed for having people pay money for that thing. It’s clear you have a hate boner for Hax and you know nothing about the history of these controllers.