B5 I have always been here

[@veleriphon]

So many writers could learn from Straczynski, the B5 writing staff, and the incomparable Andreas Katsulas.

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

We could only hope. Too many writers today are so far up themselves all they can smell is their own shit. This is one of the, many, reasons I do not want to see a B5 reboot.

[@conmadben]

Nowdays the writers only care about putting their agenda into the product.

[@barrywhite6060]

he was the writing staff, i saw him in a interview where he said he wrote every episode by himself other then the first season I think.

[@LB-py9ig]

Just uh, not Spiderman: One More Day. We don't talk about that.

[@101Mant]

​@@LB-py9ig in fairness that wasn't his choice but editorial direction.

[@zephyr8072]

Always loved the little detail that Kosh chose to appear to G’Kar and Sheridan as their respective fathers. He still viewed them as his children while the other Vorlons and Shadows were too wrapped up in their own ideals and arrogance.

[@raven4k998]

we are a dying people @zephyr8072

[@ilnigromante666]

"Because you let them distract you. Blind you with hate!" This one cut deep.

[@GalaxyGamer_YT665]

Andreas was such a powerful actor. his lines in the show were delivered with such passion and conviction. rip

[@Theomite]

I still get chills when he screams "NEURON BY NEURON! ALL OF IT MOLLARI! AALLLLLL OF IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!" I'm like-"Can't touch that. Nope, nope, nope."

[@xandersnyder7214]

@@Theomite I get chills everytime I watch that part of this scene! The way he was able to summon rage, fury, blood lust, grief into that one line. I recently watched an episode of Star Trek TNG with him as Romulan Admiral Tomolak. While he delivers what was written for him well it pales in comparison to the way JMS wrote G'Kar.

[@Desmaad]

Sometimes he ate the scenery like a giant sandwich, particularly in the early seasons.

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

He was a legend. He, and Peter Jurasik, are two of the reason why a reboot would never work. Nobody could ever replicate his performance as G'kar. His ability to go from angry to comedic to tragic, often in one scene, was an incredible thing to behold. His chemistry with Jurasik could neve be repeated.

[@ethenallen1388]

What set Kosh apart from the rest of the Vorlons was that he realized what was happening between his people and the Shadows. You can hear it in what he said to G'Kar. I think he saw a bit of himself in G'Kar, and what G'kar could become, and that's why he stopped him from killing Londo.

[@Monitor1CC]

Ethen Allen Wow, extremely interesting take on a possible motivation for Kosh in this scene! I’d seriously like to ask JMS what he thinks of that....

[@Monitor1CC]

Alysandir I didn’t see it as Kosh simply using G’Kar and the Narns as pawns because Kosh was always portrayed as mostly benevolent and trying to help in some way even if he was aloof and later Lyta says she knew from all the time she spent with Kosh that he actually cared about the younger races unlike Ulkesh and other Vorlons.

[@Hyperion5182]

And that given the conflict that would happen later: My money is on Kosh being one of the better vorlons and his death drove the Vorlons to hate.

[@ethenallen1388]

I know the scene you're referring to and it was before G'Kar started showing his more complex, spiritual nature. I think that by the end of the second season Kosh had decided G'Kar was capable of great things and wanted to help him achieve them.@Alysandir

[@dirdib69]

I think Kosh was to the Vorlons what Dukhat was to the Minbari, or perhaps what Delenn become for them. He was a respected sage who was still a progressive. I'm reminded of Delenn's reaction to hearing that the Grey Council had said that the "problems of others are not our concern". Both characters had a sense of moral duty that went beyond loyalty to their own species. Perhaps that is what defined the principle B5 characters the most, their basic nobility. Even Londo, who was arguably the most corrupt of the main characters, was at his core an honorable person. I wonder how much Kosh's interactions with Sinclair and Sheridan heightened his sympathy for the younger races, ultimately giving him the courage to sacrifice himself as he did to further the cause of uniting the pre-Alliance worlds.

[@Deepingmind]

What's so beautiful here is that Kosh isn't just talking about the Narn and Centauri, but in classic JMS dualism Kosh is also talking about the Vorlons and Shadows. That their times have come and its not about how or if they survive, but rather that they need to find a way to ensure the others survived and don't repeat their mistakes.

[@NATIK001]

Kosh Naranek realized things about the First Ones which basically no one else among them had realized. Putting a piece of himself inside Sheridan is what allowed Sheridan to realize the same, and to take up the fight against all of the First Ones. Kosh also ended up living exactly what he told G'kar here. He sacrificed himself so that all could be saved.

[@Traisas]

Damn. It is beautiful.

[@NATIK001]

This scene shows best why Kosh's line is "I have always been here." He isn't the one seeking, he is the one waiting for those who seek honestly and with all their heart. When their search aligns with him they will might find him and be shown things which might aid their search. Kosh was always there ready to give wisdom to G'kar, but G'kar wasn't in the place where he could accept or understand it until then. It also links up with G'kar's answer to "What is truth, and what is God?" When people see Kosh they see their God, but Kosh isn't God, Kosh is only a reflection of the God the person viewing him wants to see. People who are wise know Kosh to not be God, but they can chose to accept his wisdom and use it as an aid in their continued search for truth and God. G'kar saw his God when he saw Kosh, but he grew to understand that what he saw was a reflection of himself and his search and what he found was knowledge about himself and his position in the universe. He understood he was getting in the way of his own search, and in doing so understood how and why he was doing it. Then he moved and found deeper understanding. Babylon 5 has several sequences which separately conveys a base idea of the nobility and wisdom of searching, even if one doesn't find or even if one cannot find the object of one's search.

[@raven4k998]

and when Kosh died the Vorlon's died inside to it was a death of the whole species when it happened

[@AlkanphelPlays]

Never start a fight, but always finish it ... Sheridan's dad

[@SirMarshalHaig]

"They are a dying people...we should not get involved" And then he did and saved the Narn, maybe the Centauri as well with his revelation to G'Kar

[@stephendarroch5565]

This is why Kosh was the best of the Vorlons, he remembered the purpose the Vorlon had promised, to guide the younger races by inspiration not by overt force. Its also the reason the Shadows had to kill Kosh.

[@raven4k998]

the Centauri started it

[@sandal_thong8631]

No, the Shadows killed Kosh because he broke the rules. It was the time of the Shadows, every 1000 years or thereabouts.

[@astralclub5964]

One day the Earth may be a burnt cinder. But somewhere up high there may be a giant tombstone that will read, "Here lies the human race. It wasn't our fault..."

[@JD-ik8ji]

And also "Who WAS the Best Batman??? Cast your vote here!"

[@hagamapama]

Kosh was speaking not just of the Narns and centauri, but of the Vorlons and Shadows. "it no longer matters who is right, it only matters who is suffering." And when he says "we are a dying race" he was speaking of both the Narns and the Vorlons. Kosh is a member of the Vorlon peace movement. He's been positioning the younger races in order to stop the eternal war and to save his own people. Kosh carries things as far as he can and then leaves them in Lorien's capable hands to carry them forward.

[@mikloscsuvar6097]

Why would the Vorlins be a dying race? They are equal to the Shadows.

[@guspaz]

@@mikloscsuvar6097 And they and the shadows were killing each other, just as the Narn and the Centauri were.

[@mikloscsuvar6097]

@@guspaz They were not in direct war with each other. The only direct conflict was Corriana 6.

[@guspaz]

@@mikloscsuvar6097 They started fighting directly when Sheridan convinced Kosh to act. He managed to do so when Kosh realized he was wrong, and the Vorlons directly attacked a shadow fleet. The shadows murdered Kosh in response. They continued to fight, escalating to the point of the vorlons using planet killers and the shadows using death clouds. They wiped out entire planets, including all the shadow or vorlons on those planets. Remember that the shadows had large bases on many of the worlds that the Vorlons were destroying, including that big island on Centauri Prime that Londo blew up to try to stop the Vorlons from destroying his planet. So yeah, they were directly killing each other long before Corianna VI.

[@fix0the0spade]

@@mikloscsuvar6097 When two equal forces meet, they cancel each other out.

[@RasakBlood]

"You have the opportunity here and now to chose. To become something greater and nobler and more difficult then you have been before." Words to live by. But we get the chance every day.

[@TechnoMageB5]

Kosh speaks the same way truth would speak if it could. "I have always been here." Always present, waiting to be seen, heard, perceived - if only we would quiet the turmoil within ourselves long enough to LOOK, to SEE, to HEAR, to PRECEIVE it.

[@dimitriosfotopoulos3689]

G'Kar and the actor who played him very quickly became my favorite on B5. I enjoyed his version of a Romulan as Tomalak in TNG, but with G'Kar, Katsulas really got the chance to stretch his legs.

[@happyninja42]

Yes. He said in an interview that it was probably his favorite role ever. Before B5, he was basically always just "Italian Mobster Guy" in the various movie/tv roles he'd get. The occasional Star Trek spot, but not much, and nothing that had any room to develop and grow. But G'Kar had such a rich background for him to work with, and a lush world to grow in. It was a great opportunity for him. Same thing with Walter Koenig (Bester), who also said that he never really got much in the way of deep work as an actor. But even as a guest character in B5, he had a LOT of depth and fun. Hell he had entire episodes devoted to his character, one episode even from his character's perspective. And he was like "you just don't have that happen as an actor."

[@spleefthedude7747]

This was such a great show. Just amazing thx so much JMS!!!!

[@jasonc2784]

Its the philosophy that sets this show apart from other sci-fi. I hope that the reboot does not lose what made Babylon 5.

[@annstillwell730]

I have always been here. Kosh tag line.

[@thebagfather4633]

the best space series from the 20 century there will never be another Babylon 5

[@Joey-db8bv]

I love G'kar! He is truly the greatest Narn!

[@jimquann2400]

This such a well-acted and written show. Take the Sci-fi out of it and set it on earth it in any time frame of history. It would be very good still. Wish I understood that when it first came out on TV!!! MY loss!!!

[@jwbullardxxiii]

Magnificent writing. There's nothing in the modern drivel that comes close to this...

[@weldonwin]

I direct you to Luthen Rael's "What do I sacrifice" speech from Andor, as probably the best thing to come out of Modern Star Wars (As low a bar as that may be)

[@rharvier]

That scene was so powerful. I remember watching it for the first time and I was just blown away.

[@raven4k998]

I have always been here

[@SierraSierraFoxtrot]

Absolutely amazing old Narn makeup.

[@khathaway414]

Damn I forgot how well written and acted this show was. Why isn't there anything on like this now?

[@weldonwin]

Well, part of it was that back then, they didn't have special effects to rely on. Obviously they did have SFX, but it was much more primitive and the budget for this show meant they had to use them sparingly. As a result, this forced them to use their writing to keep the audience engaged and the rest is down to seriously talented actors to deliver excellent performances.

[@SantomPh]

A much,much dumber audience. Too many nitpickers online, too many cinema majors and too many social justice warriors. The audience now has a far lower IQ than 20 years ago

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

Coz modern writers are utterly shit and do not have the self awareness to realise they are shit. For some reason they feel the constant need to fix things that were never broken in the first place. Witness the travesties that are Wheel of Time, Lotr The Rings of Power, Terry Pratchett's The Watch, Bad Robot Star Trek, Disney Star Wars, Chris Chibnall era Doctor Who, Marvel Phase 4, on and on and on.

[@dhunter1133]

Why? I believe we have become a people devoid of critical thinking, who need things spoon fed to them. The subtleties of this scene would be wasted on the vast majority of even science fiction fans, much less your average media consumer. Just look at the outrage over the "Madness of Daenerys" and all the complaints that her turn made no sense, when the signs were literally there from Season 1 of GoT throughout the series.

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

@@dhunter1133 It wasn't the fact she turned that pissed people off it was the manner and speed of the turn. Yes it had been forshadowed but other than a few minor hints it did pretty much come out of nowhere. This is because Benioff and Weiss are, like most of modern Hollywood, shit writers with an overinflated ipinion of their own meagre talents.

[@ihavegymnastics]

Easily one of the finest pieces of screenwriting EVER.

[@raven4k998]

yes as it shows a lot of wisdom in the words spoken

[@Len0Grady]

Great Irish Tony Award-winning actor Jim Norton here as G’kar’s father, also shows up again in B5 as Judge Wellington and Fr Lazarenn, but is most well known as the horrible Bishop Brennan in comedy Fr Ted.

[@Vaultboy-ke2jj]

Don’t call me Len!

[@j.m.youngquist419]

G'kar was the heart of the show

[@Turtleproof]

Twenty years later and I realize that Narn means they're living in a fantasy world.

[@ChrisNurney]

Still hits.

[@CancerLicker]

no five words in english more immediately fill me with overbearing dread than "i have always been here"

[@kaluzasrevenge]

A really good job by Jim Norton here 🙌

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

Best series in sf and best actor in the series :)

[@Erekose2023]

Kosh understood the futile of the Vorlon-Shadow conflict, but was one standing alone. He knew all along where it would lead him, to his own sacrifice. Maybe G'Kar wanted Lyta to go with him, not just for her sake, but because like Sheridan he too had been touched by a Vorlon, and was in a position to cope with her. Baybylon 5 had so many intricacies and threads that it wove, that not all managed to get told and explained. And maybe that's a good thing. And that stone should remain untouched, and not turned over allowing others to tarnish the surroundings that produced such lush growth

[@chodeshadar18]

Everything sounds so wise with an English accent!

[@NuyoRican-vm2kx]

At the end of Babylon 5 I always wondered what became of the Narn and Centauri...

[@tomsko863]

There are three really well written books that continue the story about the Centauri called "Legions of Fire". Check them out here: babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Novel_list

[@celebrim1]

I believe by 1 million years into the future it is implied that they are both extinct.

[@DavidKnowles0]

@@celebrim1 I can't remember it implying any such thing. All it implied was that humans became vorlons. Minbari and Humans at this point might have evolve into a hybrid species. Which make sense because it was humans that were the ones that were trying to bring peace to the galaxy via cooperation using the Babylon stations. All we really know is that Vir became emperor and has a statue built with G'Kar and Londo. I presume Vir reign was long an prosperous and change Centeuri culture for the better. I'm sure having such a large statue of Narn a near living god to them in the Centeuri capital meant a lot to the Narn People.

[@danielyeshe]

@@celebrim1 Not extinct but they don't become like the wink wink in TDOFS.

[@timokarvonen3824]

I Will always be here for this scene. B5, until I die.

[@Infernal460]

His dad failed. Why now, why wait till the damage was done? No, the dead dont dictate to the living. The living have to find their own way and make their own choices.

[@championjdg]

i believe that many people need to watch this scene. we fight pick sides and fight to hurt one another. we don't want to give ourself up for others. we lose more of ourself when we focus on ourselves. we can learn a lot form babylon 5.

[@corfe123]

cut in the best moment :( Such a beautiful scene! Babylon 5 is a masterpiece in all aspects!

[@chrism7395]

G'Quan is played by Jim Norton, who also played Markab Doctor Lazaran, Ombudsman Zimmerman...and Bishop Brennan in Father Ted

[@iratecomputeruser4160]

You cut it off right at the height of the inspiration, when he sees G'Lan (Kosh). Why?

[@viperleader001]

Greatest speech that was ever written.

[@walther007]

Drives me nuts it ends there. Just needed 10 more secs.

[@KingOfMadCows]

I do wonder how much of this was genuine desire to help the Narn and how much of this was self serving. The Vorlons did use the Narn as tools and pretty much discarded them when they were no longer useful. The Vorlons call the Narns a dying race but a big reason why their development was held back was probably because they Shadows attacked them 1,000 years ago to kill all their telepaths. And the Vorlons were the ones who engineered all the younger races to develop telepaths. But without telepaths, the Narns are no longer useful in the war against the Shadow. Now Kosh is asking G'Kar to make more sacrifices.

[@michaelriddick7116]

"We are fighting to save one another!" 💔😢😭😭😭

[@wufspyder]

Someone once said: The Ideals Hopes and Dreams of us All can Truly be found in our Fantasies and our Fiction. If only they could be made Rea?

[@dirdib69]

Kosh had previously commented that the Narns and Centauri were both dying and that the others should just "let them pass". The central truth of Babylon 5 was that everyone changes. This was true, even of Kosh. He was always a progressive voice amongst the Vorlons, but his association with the others at B5 caused him to develop a greater sympathy and understanding of them. Kosh sees into the telepathic "war" that G'Kar is waging there on Londo, and sees that there is a potential for them both to become something greater, so he intervenes and changes the course of G'Kar's life. He had learned, too, that the Vorlons and Shadows both had stagnated in their endless war. It was unfortunate that he was gone by the time that Sheridan and Delenn "won" by making both sides see that truth.

[@918Mitchell]

People today are obsessed with getting the other side to the point they don't care what's destroyed in their path

[@dumaskhan]

this and many other scenes shows how much Kosh was so different from other vorlons. They were never capable of this level of empathy, despite their advanced existence.

[@shaunwilson3059]

dont be too quick to judge, can you feel that level of empathy to an ant? you forgot the "what is that" lesson

[@dumaskhan]

@@shaunwilson3059 I am saying he actually did feel empathy for an ant. But then the analogy doesn't apply as he never saw humans (or the "lesser races")as ants.

[@nelsonchereta816]

I am here, I have always been here

[@winterbas8927]

Sigh, right here is the solution to so many of our conflicts but it takes a once in a millennium leader to have the charisma and strength of character to sway his people to follow such a path.

[@EliSkylander]

How many years later than when I first saw this, and I think of the Narn vendetta against the Centauri, a pledge even to death, and I recall from 'The Wheel of Time' the phrase, "Death is lighter than a feather. Duty is heavier than a mountain." How easy it is to pledge to fight to the death, and to fight, and to die. How much harder to pledge to life, to finding a way to continue, to living, to -actually- make the world you live in better. And, in how much harder it is, how much more wise, more fore-sighted, more noble, more right. JMS created a lasting piece of art because he spoke the truth. Not speaking the truth to power, or to the weaker, or to those who did not want to listen. He showed us the truth, then he named it, then his characters abided by it.

[@tomaskops7119]

They are alone. They are a dying people; we should let them pass. Who, the Narn or the Centauri? Yes

[@zlozlozlo]

The first time I saw this scene, when he said "I have always been here" I realized it was Kosh meddling again.

[@blastermasterguy]

WE ARE ONE!

[@GaryM1967]

Good PROGRAMMING.

[@maggisclipsofthemonth3952]

DUST, reminds me of Desoxyn,. but i guess it only works on those who are succeptible to it.

[@amead78]

Character growth at its best. G’Kar’s beliefs are challenged and shown to be wrong.

[@robertbusek30]

Better still, G’Kar accepts that they are wrong and turns toward the Light.

[@hankl6897]

WHY DID YOU CUT OUT THE ANGEL part for ?? HELLO ? THAT WAS THE MAIN REASON

[@turtleofthenorthshore6427]

yeah

[@SSmith-fm9kg]

G'Kar carried B5 in the final seasons.

[@angelluisguevarafranco1797]

❤

[@mitche5007]

An eye for an eye, leaves everyone blind, and ironically, he did lose an eye in this conflict😢

[@raymond-thecrumpledlecturer]

How good is Jim Norton in this scene?

[@FinalFirebrand]

This is right there with TNG...sometimes (and often in my biased opinion) transcending it narratively...

[@alanmike6883]

Kosh loved the younger races

[@LordTalax]

I never understood the Vorlon line "I have always been here". As with all Vorlon speech, it's far deeper than the words alone.

[@echofourmike85]

They have been around longer than the younger races and worlds, they have watched and guided. The Vorlon were taking the long view until they could no longer allow the Shadows to swallow the new worlds onto the darkness of endless wars.

[@blusafe1]

As with all Vorlon speech, it's meant to be simple and straightforward. Kosh has always been around to offer guidance, but only when you are ready. If Kosh told G'kar years ago to sacrifice Narn so Centauri may live, I don't think he'd be so receptive.

[@wheelyjon]

I swear that Martin Jarvis playing the narn god spirit of peace or whatever he privately haven't we thought god sounded a bit like Martin Jarvis can anyone confirm that actually right with this this? The Casting choice not the theological theorising on the voice of God

[@nathan3252]

That was kosh.

[@Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs.]

It's not Martin Jarvis, although it does sound very like him. It's Jim Norton, better known as Bishop Brennan from Father Ted.

[@hibbidyjibbidyy]

"great and nobler than jkar? seems hes been most noble and honorable, and kind, and viscose

[@hibbidyjibbidyy]

crule, diengeneus, he has bee many things

[@discombubulate2256]

you got to hand it to the make up people on the bab 5 set. the narn prosthetics have to be some of the best in scifi.

[@dhunter1133]

I once thought that this scene - while beautiful - showed the manipulative nature of the Vorlons; that Kosh was convincing G'Kar to sacrifice his people because the "Army of Light" needed pawns to sacrifice. Now I choose to believe that Kosh understood that the Narn were already beyond the point of saving, and he wanted to give them the chance to make a difference before their race passed from the universe. Contrast that to the Dilgar, whom the Vorlons had no issues finishing off.

[@indigoTwilight1967]

It certainly can seem that way, until one hears the line "Some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved." Kosh was speaking more than just Ga'kar at that moment for I am certain Kosh already knew that he would have to sacrifice himself to save the younger races from both the Vorlans and the Shadows. If he didn't know then, it doesn't change the fact that later on Kosh would willingly sacrifice himself twice to end the cycle of misery and manipulation.

[@CMOT101]

Interesting. I always saw it as Kosh trying to save as many Narn as possible as they were a dying race. G'Kar is a leader, whether he wants to be or not. Its where he leads that matters. That and Kosh is thinking about his own future, knowing that given his own people and the Shadows, he may need to sacrifice himself.

[@dhunter1133]

I think what we must remember is that Kosh was unique amongst Vorlon. Yes, he did end up sacrificing himself, and yes, he did care about the younger races on what can seem like a personal level, but we did not know this at the time of this scene. What we saw of the Vorlons in general was that there were very manipulative and had no issues doing what they wanted. We saw this in how they dealt with the last Dilgar, Deathwalker, we saw it how they used Lyta and Sebastian. We saw it in how they intended to destroy Centauri Prime. The Vorlon could only be considered the "good guys" relative to the Shadows, because frankly, they employed the same methods. Kosh was simply on another level.

[@Avenger85438]

The game Battle Realms had two characters say something similar. _"I am always here."_ kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHzVZYF5jNR4bsUm32s kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHzVZYF5jNR4bsUm32 It might have been inspired by this.

[@marty34534]

You cut out the best part!

[@jawstrock2215]

Kosh is such a wise being/

[@julien5053]

Kosh has foreshight. He knows for a fact that Centauries and Narns will all die. His wisdom lies in his choices and in his honest care for younger races. And he made the ultimate sacrifice for his "children".

[@joseortiz4194]

What episode or move is. I missed this part. I can't remember. Please can someone tell me so I can see the entire epidose

[@ApokWow]

Please dont ever reboot b5, it will never be the same without the original cast, no-body can replace andreas.

[@idan137]

Kosh

[@fatdogtavern]

Episode?

[@simonpotter7534]

17 Shadows did not like this video

[@robertbusek30]

Probably a couple Drakh in that group...

[@connordowning216]

christ bishop brennan

[@Desmaad]

The actor who played Narn!Kosh was Irish. I wonder if he saw any parallels between the Narn/Centauri conflict and The Troubles back home?

[@vgernyc]

I assume Kosh continued to be a student of Lorien, where the other First Ones have long forgotten his lessons.

[@JPNixon-hu2jd]

YOU CUT IT THERE!?!?!?!

[@amead78]

The Israeli and Palestinians could learn a lot from this.

[@TyonKree]

So what if the Israelis stop fighting? How do you think that would play out?

[@Lorgar64]

The same way it's been playing out since the negotiations in 1945.

[@zingzangspillip1]

They almost actually did something, and Rabin was assassinated. You think anyone wants to try to fix it now?

[@zingzangspillip1]

@Quentin Styger Being assassinated? Not sure what you mean.

[@MorriganWarrioress]

Which episode is this from?

[@SudokuPUA]

Which episode is this?

[@JD-ik8ji]

S03E06 Dust to Dust

[@ahsenkhan5386]

Father Ted LOL

[@michaelhutchins1844]

Bishop Brennan?

[@Forcefu]

remind me of middle east

[@mrlodwick]

You look into the mirror and become them!

[@johncrichton7461]

It's fantastic acting and writing. Completely moving and a fucking jaw dropping performance from whomever played his father. Yeah the H word is coming. However after watching it again and as an older man not just a teenage boy having a religious experience watching something so amazing as B5. Which also required sacrifice to see in the UK. When you look at this now, it's just Vorlon manipulating G'kar and by proxy the Narns to die for them for the "greater good". In the most cynical, manipulative and morally evil way. This scene and some others involving Sheridan, Delenn and a religious super fleet are much more challenging scenes now. What Kosh does here is wrong and evil on pretty much every level to me. The results are objectively for the best though...

[@613harbinger316]

Possibly, but look at the other comments here. There can be another interpretation of Kosh speaking of himself, his people and their conflict with the Shadows. Like so many other themes on B5 there's almost always another layer to discover.

[@travcollier]

@@613harbinger316 Kosh was a product of a manipulative and IMO evil Vorlon culture, but he was not completely limited by it. He empathized to a degree with the "lesser" races and had a capacity to see through their POV a bit that the other Vorlons seemed to lack. That's probably why he was the ambassador. He wasn't really using G'kar and the Narn for the Vorlons gain here IMO. Yes the religious disguise is just wrong, but I'm not sure he could imagine counseling G'kar any other way... That's just what Vorlons had done for mellina.

[@grygaming5519]

Its very easy to read it that way, however its also easy to forget that the whole Narn-Centauri conflict at the time was 100 years of bad blood and Narn aggression. The fact that the Narn Regime did not have any allies that sided with them at the onset of the war is indicative of how much they were warmongering in the first season. It also stands that the Shadows at the end of the first season were looking for that 1 interstellar power to start kicking over the anthill. Hence why Mr. Morden went around asking some of the interstellar powers "what do you want" with the Narn and Centauri being the two who caught their interest. G'Kar was just more prideful of his race by 'doing it themselves' that the shadows passed him over. Where it was far easier to temp power to the Centauri and within the government of the Centarum. What I mean is that the Narn people were more than willing to inflict war on the Centauri, where the Centauri population, Emperor and most of the noble houses were sick of war and looking to find a more fruitful way to co-exist. That also meant there were factions in the Centauri Republic who hated this aspect Lord Reefa and his co-horts being the main conspirators. Londo was a patriot and even though he did not agree with the Emperor, he followed the old ways that the Emperor was right...so when Emperor Turhan visited B5 knowing it was going to die. He mentioned to both Londo and Reefa that they were going to die in hellfire for going against the Emperor's will (In Centauri Culture the Emperor is also their head of religion...so pretty much excommunication at this point). It made it easy for the Shadows to sink their tendrils into Centauri government. It also hid a lot of the war movement they were doing. What Kosh did is that he understood what G'Kar was going though because his race and the shadows have been caught up in a war without end. The rules of the engagement changed a thousand years ago when one side decided their way was the correct way. Hence the first shadow war, the second war was just going to turn out the same way. Billions of dead civilians, dead worlds and broken species. All he did is exactly what he finally had to let go and his speech to Sheridan was Kosh telling him that he was right. That the only way the war ends is when both sides leave....Possibly understanding that Z'ha'dun was going to reveal to John that neither side was right all along, and the younger races were chess pieces. If Sherridan chose to side with the shadows...the vorlons would murder him. If he went back the shadows would kill him. He was going to die either way but the 3rd option was to jump.

[@friedrichjunzt]

Powerful writing... Almost unknown nowadays. Compare this example to Amazons lord of the Rings dumpster fire...

[@Howyaduing]

deus ex machina at its finest right here

[@HighLordBlazeReborn]

A deus ex machina is a trope, a plot device with no real logic used to cover up a plot hole. This is anything but. This is precisely the kind of thing Kosh does- we see him do it with Sheridan too.

[@nicholasdickens2801]

It’s tragic that nearly 25 years on this video is more relevant than ever in this Brexit, Trump world.

[@Infernal460]

Sorry to point this out but the dad is wrong. So long as people posses memory there will always will be something to avenge. Even if you don't want to test someone down. Someone else will. The fight is to survive is eternal there is no option other than the grave.

[@roguishpaladin]

@@Infernal460 That's the law of.the uncivilized. The law of the civil is to take no greater hostile action than is necessary to defeat the foe and not to revel in their defeat. Word before first, fist before knife, knife before gun. Recognize than vengeance is useless and that the ultimate goal should be for all to live.

[@girlgarde]

Just because the British wish to pull out of the European Union whose led by unelected bureaucrats who dictate what its members can and can't do without them having a say in it doesn't mean that the British have given into hate and fear, they just wish to be more aligned with the Commonwealth and America. I get what you mean though, Trump is basically our version of Centari Emperor Cartagia or Earth President Clark.....

[@fjccommish]

This show was awful.

[@neilkurzman4907]

Good thing you didn’t watch it then. But if you only watched a few episodes, then that’s why you didn’t like it. Your loss

[@Vaultboy-ke2jj]

Your opinion is awful

[@JonathanDoyle-te4mt]

What episode is this from?

[@michaelhutchins1844]

Bishop Brennan?