Did Jesus’ Disciples Think He Was God?

[@theflarpus]

I have been enjoying these videos so much. Spent most of my life listening to preachers and scholars who do everything they can to fit the Bible to their preconceived beliefs. Finally I am at a place where I can listen to honest scholarship ❤

[@deborahrodriguez-castinado9536]

You might also enjoy “Jesus’ Biological Father was Joseph: According to the New Testament” by DS WAGGONER. Even just the few free “sample” pages make you do a double-take lol

[@techmedandtravel]

Jesus was made from God's Man to God-Man. In his own words he never claimed divinity, Verses were twisted & added later to suit the narrative(check the council of Nicea, etc)

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

The whole "Jesus 'is God'" lie is a slap in the face to Jesus and the God he serves.

[@techmedandtravel]

@Breakthechochamber Well Paul is a true deceiver, the less said the better, a Jew Bounty Hunter who goes on to write so many abhorrent books which are now part of the New Testament.

[@Loenthall88]

The divine claims are pretty clear in John's Gospel; although, granted, it is a very different gospel than the synoptics, where there is no real claim on Jesus's part claimig divinity. The writer of John's Gospel is coming from a very different place, where the Logos ("the Word") is a divine being existing with the Father from the "beginning." In the Book of Acts it's worded in such a way to show that Jesus was a human favored by God and then exalted after his death.

[@truthmatter9972]

It was only after the alleged resurrection the disciple thought that Jesus is man -God. Before the alleged resurrection the guys thought that he was a teacher ... rabbi... prophet .....and they hopped he is the messiah and will be a king. When their hope dashed as Jesus disappeared and did not become the king of Israel .... as a Jew at that time, having some Hellenistic thoughts ....they counselled them self ...thinking that he was raised to heaven .... and slowly ...slowly ...exalted him to be son of God and then be God. During Jesus life …Jesus never thought or behaved like he is God…..his mother never felt …behaved …or…claimed that she gave birth to God ….His disciples, never treat Jesus as he is God. Please Christian give us break from all this nonsense and read John 17-3 ( It is eternal life ….so they may know that ONLY YOU FATHER is the true God ) very clear

[@bradleyperry1735]

@@truthmatter9972This is all incorrect.

[@exequiellopresti5846]

Dear Megan and Bart: Bart mentioned several times that he is teaching a class at UNC about Jesus' representations in films. Could you please make a podcast about that subject? I think it would be really interesting - BTW: "Jesus of Montreal" is one of my five all times favorite movies. Very best!

[@arusirham3761]

Good

[@zapkvr]

The Zeferrili movie, Jesus of Nazareth is my favorite its still a work of art.

[@noeditbookreviews]

I took a class that used your Bible: Historical and Literary Introduction book, and I liked it so much I didn't sell it back after the class. That book made that class much better than I was fearing it would be.

[@termination9353]

- The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.

[@OxbowisaMstie]

@@termination9353 Is this that ChatGPT i keeping hearing so much about?

[@sailorbychoice1]

@@OxbowisaMstie lol

[@dolliscrawford280]

At 34.50 I like the Muslim stories of Jesus's childhood, to fill in. I think God's presence was in/with Jesus and Jesus was also thinking like a child and learning. Father Joseph grabbed him by the ear when he misbehaved. I think Joseph and Mark were very strong parents.

[@RestoringReality]

It's primarily only Paul's worshippers who think Jesus is God. The apostles certainly did not worship Paul. Jesus told us many times in many ways that he was not God.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

It's very difficult to be sure. My understanding of Bart's opinion and a lot of scholarly consensus, is that while Jesus didn't teach that he was God and thus his followers didn't believe it while he was alive, the idea that he was in some way divine developed quickly after his death as a way to make sense of the Messiah being executed. This very likely wasn't Paul's contribution, but something developed by those disciples who remained followers after the crucifixion. First an adoptionist version - where Jesus is the Son of God, adopted either at Baptism or at the resurrection, then with birth narratives in Matthew/Luke and eventually as pre-existent in John.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

You were careful to say "Paul's worshippers" and not "Paul". For it would seem to be false to say Paul ever taught that Jesus was God or equal to God from any of the writing we have of him.

[@RestoringReality]

@@youngknowledgeseeker I have zero respect for Paul. He is of the spirit of anti-Christ and is not my friend in any way. He is responsible for more people being led astray than any other man in history. Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law according to Paul!

[@balung]

Yeap, these people always attack the 3 main tenants of the Christian faith, the Virgin Birth, Diety of Christ, and the Resurrection. All should be taken by faith.

[@fidelcatsro6948]

Even Paul didnt consider Jesus to be God! But his postulations about Jesus coming to die for sins of others opened a pandora box for idolatry by later followers down the line..

[@mikearchibald744]

I kind of think they wouldn't have just stood around and then denied him if they thought their eternal soul was at risk. Just sayin.

[@robinstevenson6690]

Although not mentioned in this interview, the Ebionites (a sizable group of Judean followers of Jesus) did not consider Jesus to be God - - at least not during his lifetime. Much like Enoch, they viewed him as being fully human until his death and at least some of them did not consider him to be "God" even after his death.

[@stevearmstrong6758]

True. Some believe the Ebonites probably most closely followed the actual teachings/practices of Jesus vs the theology of Paul what later became the Gospels.

[@robinstevenson6690]

Aye, and for that reason, I myself could probably be a modern-day version of an Ebionite, but couldn't possibly accept Paul's interpretation of Christianity.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

No new testament author thought he was God most likely. It's not even a contest, he is just simply never described that way as far as exegeting the Bible in its 1st century context is concerned. You don't need to pull the ebionites, use the New Testament our literal 1st century Christian documents of their dogmas. They thought he was the Christ, the Son of God. Two terms that seemed to have nothing to do with being God at all and in fact seem to disqualify you from being God.

[@robinstevenson6690]

@@youngknowledgeseeker Good point. In some ways, the NT could be described as being a debate about the nature of Jesus - man (?) prophet (?) angel (?) Son of God (?) Son of Man (?) human and/or divine (?)

[@robinstevenson6690]

@@youngknowledgeseeker Mark 8:27-29: he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” And they answered him, “John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” ... Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

In short: No. HIs disciples did not see him as God and only John 20:28 and a couple other passages in John could make a person think otherwise. Keep in mind that John's gospel has WAY more figurative language (e.g. "eat my flesh and drink my blood") that Christians love to take out of context. Jesus claimed his God (John 20:17) is the ONLY TRUE GOD in John 17:3.

[@ianalan4367]

jeffbennett3915 - It’s in Mathew and Mark as well. Even Ehrman has recanted on the John only claim. It’s simply not true.

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

*Christianity is a divided religion* that cannot even agree with itself. *It is divided on:* Doctrines, interpretations, translations, bible versions, word meanings, denominations, sects, dogma, attitude, rhetoric, and more. Christianity has around 2.3 billion believers. It will always be divided. For it not to be divided, either around 1.3 billion belivers would have to admit that they were wrong all along, or another billion mixed Protestants would have to become Catholic. Also admitting they were wrong. To mess things up even further, Catholicism and Protestantism themselves have plenty of divisions. And no version is more divided than Protestant Christians - possibly the it's the most divided of all religions. We must always remember that the people who thought up the stories, lived in the deeply superstious Hellenistic Levant of antiquity. They were all frightened, often terrified Magical Thinkers, except for perhaps a rando Greek philospher or two. But the majority, including royalty, were superstitious Magical Thinkers. To a torturous and murderous degree of self-righteous zealotry. *The bible can be, is, and will be* interpreted to fit what anyone wants it to say. To fit what each sect wants to hear, within their own degrees of arrogance, narcissism, and confirmation bias. Blended with with basic good natured, congregations of love, mercy, compassion, kindness, etc... …vs always angry, grievance collecting, hyper-toxic churches, based on hatred, hypocrisy, judgementalism and bigotry. Congregations high on hate, crazed with suspicious conspiracy theories, fake news, meanspiritednes, willful ignorance and willful lies ... Now add the ingredient of Magical Thinking, and anything one wants to be true, "is true" - especially if thinking and talking about it, and worshipping the notion, makes them _feel_ better, soothes and comforts them in their grief and fears, and celebrates their joys. It _must_ be true, because we want it to be true. That's typically the idea to try to make belief work.

[@apollo8352]

We need to be mindful the Gospel of John was written about 80AD who based it on Q material which means the authors fabricated most of it to build a faith....not report facts of any kind...points that seem to be lost on those so desperate to believe they flavour the truth with their own words.

[@apollo8352]

All we really know about the Jesus guy is the word Jesus is most likely a title meaning Messiah in a blend of Aramaic Hebrew not so much a name....and certainly not a title the Romans would have used in convicting and Messihnistic trouble maker... And we seem to have some evidence that the Jesus guy and his mates were Jewish trouble makers inciting civil unrest for the Romans loosely called the messiahnistic movement, as they edged the Jews to rebel against living under Roman rule by thinking one day a messiah would one day be born of virgin birth and save the Jews from their miserable existence. It was Paul, Luke and Mark who took the trouble maker ring leader and made him a messiah long after his death.... and stopped other followers of Jesus writing or preaching anything Paul was not preaching . Galatians 1:8-9 & 1 :13.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

​​@@apollo8352 I dunno about all that...especially that nonsense about his name. Jesus 100% (Joshua, Yeshua, Yehoshua, Iesous) is his proper name meaning "Yah saves" or "Yah is salvation"...nothing to do with "Christ" which essentially meant King/Chosen One. Your posts are a bit bonkers mate, and I say that with love. It's like you made that all up, or are misquoting someone, or you read a pseudo-scholars work and are quoting them accurately...

[@TheAntiburglar]

Ahhh the "mystery of faith" that I remember oh so well from more than a few Sunday church services x.x

[@autumnonawhim]

Love Megan's glasses 🩵💛🩷!

[@eurech]

Reading right now Bart's 'How Jesus became God' and people need to check it out for real. It is delicious.

[@thescoobymike]

Good source of fiber too

[@jessepelaez874]

The audio book is free on KZbin for people who want a taste

[@tophers3756]

My issue with the book that he constantly uses the term "God" rather than "divine". The two aren't synonymous, and the with the points he's making "divine" is more accurate.

[@jessepelaez874]

@@tophers3756 Deity would also work, they all mean the same thing, God, Devine.

[@mrmorpheus9707]

@@tophers3756 same bird..diff wings! Stop it!

[@nigelmansfield3011]

I'm a great admirer of Bart Ehrman; I love his erudition and biblical scholarship. His work on the historicity of Jesus is amazing. As a Catholic, I have not had the problems that he has had after he rejected fundamentalism. The essence of Christianity (and I choose the word 'essence' deliberately) is the belief that Christ rose from the dead. It is that belief that defines Christianity. Even St. Augustine in the 4th century said the bible should not be taken literally. Even the attributions of the Gospels to certain Apostles is uncertain as are a number of the 'Pauline' epistles. We Catholics are well aware of these 'difficulties'. They are not difficult for us and we believe in the risen Christ and the teachings and interpretations preserved and handed down through the generations; a very different perspective from 'Fundamentalism'.

[@hubertlancaster]

We read in John chapter 3. Except a man be born again of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus says this in the last part of Mark, Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. Jesus did not put salvation before Baptism, He did not say, "He that believes and is saved, shall be bapized." He puts baptism before salvation. See Acrs 2:38 Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.

[@sailorbychoice1]

I have always felt confused by the timeline following Jesus' arrest to the time of his death. Growing up as a Catholic it has always been inferred that he was arrested on Thursday, and crucified on Friday. As a Catholic it is understood that Jesus was the most important person ever born, so historically they would have assumed every high mucky muck would have cleared their calendars for such a VIP. BUT that is seen only from an historical perspective from Jesus' worshipers. BUT In Jerusalem, to those who had him arrested, he was seen as a rabble rouser. Why wouldn't they have arrested him and let him cool his heals in a nice shady cell for a few months before anyone of any importance bothered to see him about his case, if ever? It is my understanding that many people just "got lost" in the dungeons never seeing the light of day after being arrested by the Romans. But they report that He would have had to have been arrested, then directly taken before Pilot (the most important Roman in town), then directly taken before Herod (the most important Jew in town), then brought directly back to Pilot, they then had to get a gathering of people to form for Pilot to offer Jesus or Barabbas; they never say how Jesus got from Pilot's place to the Palace or back (did they just walk), nor how long did they have to wait to be seen by some of the most important people in the country. So in a day he was arrested, taken before the Governor whose schedule was wide open to deal with an arrested rabble rouser, he meets the guy, decides he doesn't like the case, and sends it to the King, whose schedule is wide open, and He is immediately available to see someone He may {or may not} see as a rival, but takes the time to interview him anyway, then ultimately sends him back to Pilot, whose schedule is still wide open to deal with a miscreant, because a Roman Governor didn't have anything else on his plate. How long were the Jews in Israel generally held between being arrested and actually seeing any kind of judge? It all seems rather quick that all of the most important people in Israel at the time had wide open schedules; try making an appointment with even the lowest level judges today, you can wait months before being placed on their docket.

[@donl9571]

@sailorbychoice you should read Raymond Brown's "Death of the Messiah" which touches on your questions.

[@thewb8329]

Remember that it is a piece of literature that you are analyzing. It’s not unlike Star Wars fans analyzing things and events from books,movies, and shows from the Star Wars universe. The gospel narratives are based on oral tradition passed on for 40-70 years after the death of Jesus so it is extremely easy for losses in translation, contradictions, and diversity of the narratives.

[@TankUni]

I suspect the Jewish Council was 'hot to trot' so to speak, but Pilate was more concerned with the coming Passover than he was about the leader of a small band of Jewish oddballs, and so there was a quick announcement of the charge and sentence. The palaver about Pilate having a private chat with Jesus (that we somehow know about), crowds gathering and Pilate washing his hands of the affair, is likely embellishment.

[@MPKampersand]

I recall maybe from another episode of this podcast that Pilate, as governor, didn't actually have very much power per se and was mostly responsible for collecting taxes and ensuring there weren't revolts. With the memory of the Jewish wars still fresh in Roman minds it would have been a priority to prevent revolt by acceding to the demands of powerful figures in the local community.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

On the subject of how long to trial a person would have been held, you need to understand that it was very likely not a trial to begin with. Court cases for citizens of the Roman Empire were tried properly and required long setup times just like in our time. Cases brought to the ethnic judges involving non-citizen local elites also took a while to handle. Sentencing a rabble rouser took three seconds. Why waste dungeon space if you can deal with it today? Pop in, pop out, cross. Done.

[@keithwhitfield1477]

Yes, messages got altered from word of mouth. However, if you gather the common thread of Jesus’s teaching it will be revealed to you the non-duality of his teachings. Further more, he revealed the Divinity was not just in him, but in everyone. ❤

[@cathykrueger4899]

This is an extremely threatening idea to fundamentalists. Thanks for mentioning it.

[@germanboy14]

We dont even have first hand accounts of the apostles to answer this question. But they may have thought he was *the prophet LIKE MOSES in Deut 18 18.* Interestingly, the verse says that God will put words into the mouth of the prophet. This makes the whole Logos/John 1 topic useless, because this figure is not "his word" and God even has to put words into his mouth. Moreover, the Messiah (called prince or David) according to Ezekiel will even offer sin offerings for himself and is only a servant of God according to Ezekiel.

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

They "may" have thought he was the prophet like Moses? Peter literally calls him that in the book of Acts. What John's figurative writing in John 1 means is the same as 2 Cor. 5:19 --- that "God was IN Christ reconciling the world to himself." It's a shame Christians abuse John 1 to try to make Jesus into God. They deny Christ's teachings when they do this, and, of course, they don't care because Christians rarely ever read the book they claim to get their beliefs from.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

"Dr. Dustin Smith" has also been proposing that John is also drawing upon long standing Jewish views of and anthropomorphizing of (God's) "wisdom" and "word" (like of those found in ben sirrach and other wisdom literature of the time of John). God's word and wisdom were closely related almost interchangeable, and so John says that the word/wisdom of God is now Jesus, that is where they can be found and met. No longer in Torah or the temple or wherever you thought, it's in Jesus now/it is Jesus now. By the way we can see Jesus=wisdom in Paul and the gospels. They literally call Jesus "wisdom" or "the wisdom of God", not an accident from a people whose cultural writings literally describe wisdom as a being walking about to and fro acting on behalf of God and owned by him.

[@JesusisaMuslim]

The term God the Father appears 19 times in Bible. God the son appears 0 times God the Holy Spirit appears 0 time. I wonder why? .

[@fidelcatsro6948]

Later christians invented Trinity and turned Jesus into an idol of worshippry

[@origamitraveler7425]

you don't even believe Allah is your father, lol

[@JesusisaMuslim]

@@origamitraveler7425 The word Father was metaphorical in Israel back then. Nice to educate you.

[@euge.sosa.b]

Weird argument because . . . the term "Bible" appears 0 times in the Bible!

[@patrickwoolery1283]

Do you know how many times the words son of God appears?

[@nabuk3]

Those who believe Jesus knew or believed he was God (especially fully God) must also answer why Jesus prayed to his Father, and said "the Father is Greater than me". These things also seem to contradict the later creeds declaring Jesus "co-equal" with God.

[@fidelcatsro6948]

cricket sounds... krik kriik kriik

[@G.Bfit.93]

Also answer why he specifically stated he's not great only God is great, why he doesn't know everything only the father does.

[@rrsharizam]

If Jesus is god, to whom did he pray to? And what was the point when he's already god?

[@bigtombowski]

Those spectacles are spectacular Megan

[@arober2]

Total smokeshow!!!

[@thescoobymike]

Jesus is fully circle and fully square

[@JeannieSoko]

Allah has a shin, and is partner with Mohammad, islam is a shirk pagan religion, moon God religion with squares!!

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

Fully married and fully bachelor

[@Lindaeditz8]

And triangle and rectangle??

[@Peanut888..]

@@Lindaeditz8 And Muhammad ?

[@Lindaeditz8]

@@Peanut888.. you what??this is referring to your mockery of jesus pbuh none else,learn to comprehend

[@MrScotchpie]

Another interesting episode. Glad to hear Bart recommend the Harper Collins NRS translation as that is what I have after watching a series of lectures by Dale Martin at Yale, I think it was. I'm from the UK so don't understand "tenure" but will look it up ready for next week.

[@milowadlin]

Tenure is something given to teachers after a number of years that basically makes it harder to get rid of them. This means that they have greater freedom of expression and research. If their research takes them out of the mainstream or stated school philosophy they are not threatened.

[@Spamlett]

Unreal lecture series by Dale. Got me into biblical scholarship and gnosis big time. Pretty sure Bart wrote the course textbook!

[@Daniel_25]

I return to that lecture series whenever my knowledge around the topic starts to fade. Invaluable resource

[@jonathanwilson9679]

@@Spamlett Dale's series is great!

[@jonathanwilson9679]

I'll have to look into the NRS translation. I wonder if it's available online?

[@ji8044]

No, they didn't and I'm sorry to say how many years of going through the NT it took for me to come to that conclusion. It wasn't until I started to read the gospels from the perspective of what would 1st Century Jews have believed, not 21st Century Christians, that the light bulb went on.

[@IngramSnake]

As a Muslim, taught to believe in Jesus, but not that he was God, I am happy to see you've come to this conclusion based on your own efforts and rational thinking.

[@justarshad8354]

Thats the correct way of reading..

[@JeannieSoko]

@IngramSnake you should do the same with Islam with your efforts and rational thinking

[@IngramSnake]

@@JeannieSoko I did, and it made me a Muslim.

[@JeannieSoko]

@@IngramSnake you mean it made you a pedophile, and have sex with multiple men and women??

[@keithshowell6688]

An excellent overview and breakdown of the Gospels and Jesus' divinity by professor Ehrman can be appreciated from 21:00 through 25:24 minutes. Thank you, Sir!

[@longcastle4863]

But what comes before is pretty essential

[@JoseChung21]

Megan you are fantastic - when or where have you discussed why you’ve chosen to remain a Christian?

[@mikearchibald744]

It depends what you call christian. I sort of call myself christian partly because of the culture but also because I find truth and value in a lot of hthings jesus said. Ironically people who say I"m NOT a christian would then go on to spout practices and views that are more closely associated with Paul, who never met Jesus, and typically says the OPPOSITE of what jesus said.

[@gordonlynn8300]

@@mikearchibald744 I prefer Mak Twain .

[@TankUni]

@@gordonlynn8300 Mak Twain was Mark Twain's overlooked brother. Worked as a truck driver.

[@SirLangsalot]

Does she say she's a Christian?

[@mikearchibald744]

@@r0ky_M Not at all, but thats irrelevant, I'm interested in the words, metaphors, allegories and moral and political attributes. If it had been Pete Seeger I'd be a Seegerian, in fact he said a lot of good stuff too.

[@dolliscrawford280]

In high school, one summer, I took 3 translations of the Bible and read them chapter by chapter and decided what I wanted to believe. Time has changed some of my interpretations. I believe we all get some things right and some things wrong, and mostly, it is all good depending on how it relates to your own life. Take the prodigal son story. The son,his brother, and their father all had different opinions.

[@michaeldebellis4202]

I don’t mean this in a critical way, I know many people use this phrase, but I always find it odd when people say things like “I choose to believe” To me, what matters is the truth and I do my best to determine what is the truth, realizing that what I may like to be true has no bearing on what is actually true. In fact, if anything, I have a bias to believe things I want to be true so I should be most skeptical of such beliefs. For example, I would like it to be true that being moral is its own reward. That as Socrates said, a true understanding of the nature of humanity will lead us to be moral. I think it is true and I think I can provide evidence it’s true but it is an hypothesis that I’m skeptical of and subject to extra scrutiny precisely because I want it to be true.

[@aliataie101]

The question in the title was not asked nor answered. Did Jesus' Disciples think he was God (capital G)?

[@ansaif1976]

Excellent note, Dr. Ataie!

[@nabuk3]

Right, ironically the video talked about almost everything except that.

[@fidelcatsro6948]

Wow Dr Ali Ataie was here too! Naaahhh none of the disciples took him to be God!

[@gmc4733]

Jesus was always God preexistent with the Father. His disciples beleived him to be God too. Bart Erhman is an atheist so he has to prove otherwise. The first sentence of the gospel of Mark reads : The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”[c]- 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”[d] Mark quotes Isaiah where the Messenger clears the way for God and applies it to John the Baptist and John cleared the way for Jesus. So, Mark beleived Jesus to be God according to the very first sentence of his gospel.

[@Aliali-vc3pk]

No they did not they worship God with him in the temple

[@ABARANOWSKISKI]

Love the podcast! Huge fan of Dr. Ehrman, I actually got to meet him once many years ago, in Toronto. It was a big deal for me (: I would like to see a debate between Dr. Ehrman and Mark Goodacre, on any topic! Doesn't matter what the subject is, perhaps the existence of Q, or something like that? I would pay good money to see that debate! Love to see it happen someday, my inner nerd would go crazy! Lol 😆🙏

[@johncotter3788]

The earliest part of ANY gospel is Papyrus No. 52, which is part of A version of the Gospel of John and is the size of a credit card, and is dated to no earlier than 125 AD.

[@stevearmstrong6758]

And there's not much there - some people assume the whole book of John in contained in 52...

[@JesusisaMuslim]

Jesus prayed to God: Luke 6:12. And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. And yet people saw Jesus. This again proves that Jesus cannot be God. Exodus 33.20. But,? he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. 1 John 4.12. No one has ever seen God; 1 Timothy 6:16. who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 1 Timothy 1.17. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. .

[@--cr35]

Hey Bart, everyone always coments on Megan's appearance, and I don't want you to feel left out. Those tortoiseshell glasses are on point and your beard is looking particularly distinguished today.

[@ME-yp7fn]

Yeah, show how Satan followers are trying to take down traditional religions and promoting Satanic agenda in which her glasses color symbolizing it.

[@--cr35]

​@@ME-yp7fn I think her glasses are supporting some of the kindest and most amazing people I've met. Happy Pride! 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️❤️

[@ME-yp7fn]

@@--cr35 That is emotional appeal, just like children when they like something, which doesn't necessary means it is good for them, and doesn't change the fact that it is an abomination and will bring God wrath upon all who participate or support it.

[@ME-yp7fn]

@@--cr35 "80. And Lot, when he said to his people, “Do you commit lewdness no people anywhere have ever committed before you?” 81. “You lust after men rather than women. You are an excessive people.” 82. And his people's only answer was to say, “Expel them from your town; they are purist people.” 83. But We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who lagged behind. 84. And We rained down on them a rain; note the consequences for the sinners."[Quran 7:80-84]

[@Amazing_Mark]

I want a full update from Megan about the Isle of Skye when she returns! 🙂

[@momijiyamanishi4548]

I heard one person's understanding that the church came up with the Gospel of John in order to start a new religion calling Jesus God.

[@edward1412]

🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

[@robinstevenson6690]

The Jewish Christians continued to worship Yahweh, "the one God" after the crucifixion. Jesus' nature was debated for centuries. Some considered him a risen angel, the Son of God or, the "Son of Man." Others considered him a prophet, and many considered him to be an "anointed one" (i.e., Messiah).

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

I'm not aware of any Christology that considers him a risen angel. There were definitely early versions that considered him a human prophet or a human Messiah. Others that thought him the adopted Son of God - born human but adopted and exalted by God, which made the sacrifice of the death and resurrection meaningful. I've seen modern theories about people originally believing him an angel from the mythicists, but no good evidence of early heresies of that nature.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

​@@jeffmacdonald9863 The Book of the Hebrews chp1-2 may be addressing a community where that, or something similar was an issue. The author has to make a whole case of why Jesus is superior to Angels, there's no need for that unless people were going around equating him with Angels in some way.

[@KeepingWatch95]

The book of Revelations calls him LORD OF LORDS. Only the LORD, the mighty God, can be LORD OF LORDS.

[@robinstevenson6690]

@@KeepingWatch95 I'm not sure if that's true. For example, every Emperor in history was considered a "King of Kings and a Lord of Lords."

[@robinstevenson6690]

@@KeepingWatch95 Revelation 19, which you're quoting, never directly calls Jesus "God."

[@vanhowell3011]

What Bart is trying to explain (around 47- 48'00 ) about Paul's notion of trust/faith/belief being something stronger and stranger than an intellectual concept might be clarified by referring to the Islamic term "surrender" (which may be what the word Islam itself means, if I remember rightly) - as in surrendering to God's will, or (in Paul's system) to Jesus's love, I always hated the way Paul's words about faith vs works come across in English (the only language I know), and it's interesting to consider the possibility that Paul might have been saying something meaningful-on an emotional level even though it's fart from rational- (instead of just airheaded hoghwash that justifies selfishness and sloth, the way it's generally understood and (ab)used by a lot of modern-day "Christians".(who like the idea of being "saved" without reforming their greedy smug ways)... Keep up the great work, you two.

[@fz1205]

He was a Jew preaching Judaism to other Jews! It was Paul who converted him to God!

[@pabloandres06183]

Another Sheep following barts and megan lewis inadequacies sam shamoun exposed his silly arguments which are made my muslims and rabbinic jews as well . In the very first chapter of Mark Jesus is proclaimed to be the second Yahweh.

[@fidelcatsro6948]

hahahaha.. I wouldnt trust my cat to Uncle Paul..

[@fz1205]

@@pabloandres06183 Please inform Dr. Ehrman about your conclusion that in the first chapter of Mark Jesus proclaims that he is the second Yahweh! Dr. Ehrman and vast majority of Christian Scholars think that in all three first Gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) there is no sign that Jesus himself says or thinks that he is the God. It is only in the Gospel of John that right away Jesus portrays and proclaims the he is the God and as you know most of Christian scholars don't even consider Gospel of John has any historical value in it at all.

[@IvarEriksson83]

You mean Saul…

[@xdaantihero]

Sam Shamoun has been debunked​@@pabloandres06183

[@smithblack5945]

I got to give it to Megan, she's good at following up with Bart after he goes into a long and detailed explanation. I wouldve been 🥴

[@SirLangsalot]

She is so charming and pretty.

[@malchir4036]

@@SirLangsalot "she"

[@lawsonj39]

@@malchir4036 What do you mean?

[@christinabutterfield1801]

​@@lawsonj39They think she's trans For some reason I imagine. That being said it wouldn't make her any less of a woman or anything.

[@sailorbychoice1]

@@christinabutterfield1801 I don't think anyone thinks she's trans, she has biological children of her own and that's one thing they haven't figured out how to do. She sometimes lists her pronouns as "she/her," just in case the multicolored hair doo wasn't enough to give you a hint of her leanings.

[@EconAdviser]

All the Christians I've ever known, regardless of sect, speak and pray as if G-d left and put Jesus in charge of watching over Earthlings. Why? Because their prayers are to Jesus. Or they say THANK YOU, JESUS. If they refer to G-d, it's seems that it's referring to him indirectly. ANYTHING said directly to the heaven is to JESUS.

[@gerardvila4685]

"You're less likely to have a coup if you're a god"... that's pretty well exactly Napoleon Bonaparte's excuse for making himself emperor (I suspect he quite liked the idea anyway). There had been an attempt on his life - by a royalist, who by definition was a devout [edit: Catholic]. So by getting himself crowned by the Pope - even though the Pope had to be blackmailed into doing it, and in the end he got tired of all the rigmarole and put the crown on his head himself - Napoleon wanted his potential assassins to give up their plans rather than commit a sacrilege. Be that as it may, the fact is he died in his bed.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

Yeah, that basic idea carries over from pagan god-kings to the Christian "divine right of kings". In a Christian context, kings actually being divine doesn't really make sense. It would be blasphemous. But if God has appointed the king rule, that's not far off. Didn't work all that well against palace coups or even rebellions by other wanna-be kings, but it did help against peasant uprisings and the like.

[@jholloway77]

It's been a long time since I read it so I could be wrong, but I think in Philip Dwyer's book Napoleon: Citizen Emperor he mentions that Napoleon had to be convinced to take on a more regal title like Emperor. He even declined being offered the title of Caesar saying no one besides Julius Caesar, his hero, was worthy of that title including himself. Initially he liked the idea of being First Consul for life since the title set him apart as something new and different than traditional heads of state. However, he came around to the idea of Emperor since it was different than a king, place him on a more equal footing to traditional monarchs, would help consolidate his regime especially with the large number of monarchists & conservative revolutionaries (remember, the French Revolution originally started with pushes to create a constitutional monarchy and later spiraled into over throwing it creating a republic of some sort). Even then he was never "Emperor of France" but instead "Emperor of the French" which did two things: invoke the Frankish ruler Charlemange who was crowed "Emperor of the Romans", and also present Napoleon as the leader of the French people and its citizens, rather than the owner of the state. That said, even without the various titles he was more than happy to think to himself as the heir to Louis XVIII's thrown, saying things like "I found the crown of France in the gutter and I picked it up" and using the kings old possessions, like silverware or finely crafted hunting rifles, for his own enjoyment.

[@私はクソな中国人です]

@@jholloway77now that is interesting

[@madamecurious]

I am an exJW (Jehovah’s Witness). They teach that Jesus was “a god” Satan is also called a god (“the god of this world”) in 2. Corinthians 4:4, and humans were sometimes called gods in the Old Testament). It means mighty or powerful persons. JWs teach that Jesus is subordinate to God the Father and not part of the trinity. It will be interesting to hear your explanations!!

[@loveismyreligion548]

JW are right in : Jesus is not God but subordinate to the Almighty . As for Trinity: Trinity is no mystery - simply misunderstood / The Spirit proceeds from the Father - In Christ Jesus exhibits / It reveals a relation between God and man that exists / The Three are not coequal - though the 3 do coexist. What made you leave JW.

[@HenriettaMRiley]

@@loveismyreligion548 So was the 'Word' God?

[@matthewkopp2391]

The Trinity idea comes from Pythagorean Philosophy, but it might have originated from either Judaism or Egypt.?Pythagoras was educated by Jews in Egypt (according to legend) and was Phoenician. The basic idea was that The One is God the Monad the origin of all things, two was the feminine principle and three the male principle (and regenerative principle) and that Three was the first real number, as it takes three points to make a shape. And Plato said the world behind the physical world which we can not perceive is made of triangles. So the early Logos Doctrine Christians saw Jesus as the Divine order of Creation and axis Mundi. Which can easily be read in the writings of Justin Martyr. Philo the Jewish philosopher was called “the Pythagorean” by (I think Clement) and there is an ancient reference that the Essenes were Pythagoreans as well. In early Christianity the followers of Paul such as the Marcionites were in conflict with the Logos Doctrine Christians. And part of the conflict was Doetic vs Trinitarian.

[@madamecurious]

@@loveismyreligion548 , thanks for your reply! JWs do not know that the JW organization has lost many court cases where millions of dollars are being payed out for the mishandling of child sexual abuses. We were constantly warned not to read or watch anything negative about the organization. Professor Hassan, cult expert calls this “information control”. Behavior control, Information control, Thought control and Emotional control (the BITE Model) all 4 can be applied to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I learned that the founder CT Russell was a false prophet and false teacher, so was the next leader Rutherford. We were followers of men (namely the 8 members of the Governing Body in New York). We had to obey these men and follow their rules.

[@HenriettaMRiley]

@@matthewkopp2391 Great copy and paste there mate lol Total and utter nonsense.

[@Jackson09]

I hope any here will eventually find your way OUT of religion. Though i have no illusion about this occuring anytime soon. 😢

[@fidelcatsro6948]

May Allah guide you ameen

[@enaidealukal4105]

Im mostly just here to see Megans latest interesting glasses and hair color. Sorry Bart. Love your books.

[@aleczemouli2905]

We will ask Jesus who he is.... when he is back. In the meantime do what God wants: take care of each other, do charity and be grateful. 😊

[@Kyeudo]

_[" In the meantime do what God wants:"]_ No, do better than that.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

At the very least, we better be doing that. At least we will be able to look Jesus in the eye even if we were right or wrong about if he was literally God or not.

[@aleczemouli2905]

@@youngknowledgeseeker apparently Jesus is not coming back. He's been late for the past 2000 years. But we still can love the creator (God) by loving His creation and taking care of it.

[@learningisfun2108]

Jesus promised that his generation would not pass before he returned again. Promise failed. Still 2000 years later, people claim his return is imminent. Kinda laughable. People always think the times they live in are special. Having an historical view really helps and,IMO, gives us needed humility.

[@aleczemouli2905]

@@learningisfun2108 Confucius said: "patience is the virtue of the wise". I guess Christians are very wise 🤣🤣🤣

[@CrazyRealm55]

A Jesus figure shows up in many many NDE's even to those who are self proclaimed atheists. The Bible presents Jesus in different ways and maybe that's the point. He is whoever you think he is

[@roadwarrior6555]

What I find interesting is that there were many people who in some ways did things that were so much more amazing than what Jesus did and nobody ever thinks of worshipping them. Great thinkers like Isaac Newton, Galileo, and Einstein. And musical geniuses like Beethoven and Bach.

[@guyfeldman4404]

Good stuff..the music intro and indeed much of the subject matter seems to indicate a nod to the late Michael Heiser

[@gigachad8601]

I didn't know he passed away but I googled it and you are right.

[@Wong-Jack-Man]

I wish we could have heard the opposing views of Paul’s especially James the brother of Jesus. With Paul trying to evangelize his Christilogy, I’m wondering if James was like you guys are nuts he was my brother in human flesh pure and simple which is why Paul couldn’t sell it to the Jews and went to the gentiles.

[@PatrickPease]

If that's what james was selling the jews, then it seems like james was pretty successful. Unless i misread your post?

[@Wong-Jack-Man]

@@PatrickPease clarified post. Meant Paul is going around selling that Jesus was divine while James was like no he was just my brother. This is why Paul couldn’t sell his theology to the Jews and was being claimed that he was corrupting Jesus’s teaching.

[@vault13dweller15]

At least we have Epistle of James. Though it is not really authored by James it is generally thought that it was made as an reaction against Paul.

[@germanboy14]

​@@vault13dweller15 there is no Epistle of James. Scholars don't think that he wrote the letter.

[@germanboy14]

​@@Michalis_Veniopoulos Stop making things up. 1. He didnt write the letter. 2. If Satan is called God of the world (2 cor 4 4) please make the same conclusion.

[@Blyndem]

Megan and Bart, these videos have been very enjoyable and informative, but I am wondering if both of you have your computers connected to your routers by a hard wire cable or are you using wifi? If on wifi, switching to a cable might fix some of the occasional hitches and quality degradation; especially on Bart's end.

[@joestar6194]

The Biblical Jesus made several distinctions between him and his " God". The Council of Nicea in the year 325 deified Jesus.

[@truthmatter9972]

Agreed

[@bradleyperry1735]

False. This is a misunderstanding of what Christ was saying, and it also assumes that there wasn’t a Tradition believed outside of the Scriptures. There is no evidence that Christianity arose from the Gospel accounts, nor is there any evidence that there wasn’t an orthodox Christianity and a united Church. There is certainly evidence of other teachings about Christ, but this is explained within the Scriptures themselves as well Church history and Tradition. This entire field of study is premised on the idea that the Holy Traditions of the Church, including the Scriptures, are not true, and there is some other underlying “truth.” This is a presupposition, not a conclusion based on evidence.

[@joestar6194]

@@bradleyperry1735 Spoken like a true deluded Christian. Happy a great day 😁

[@bradleyperry1735]

@@joestar6194 Define “deluded.” Then tell me how you have come to that conclusion. I’ll wait.

[@KeepingWatch95]

@@bradleyperry1735 _The things (the gospel) that Jesus instructed his disciples to preach was to begin at Jerusalem._ Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:47 And that *repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.* Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. _The phrase of calling them “Christians” began at Antioch, and not at Jerusalem._ _The phrase Christians started with Barnabas and Saul/Paul, and not with Jesus nor Jesus' disciples._ Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples *were called Christians first in Antioch.* _Again Jesus foretold and instructed that the things which was to be preached in his name was to begin in Jerusalem and go out from there. The phrase Christians did not begin at Jerusalem and go out to Antioch. It began in Antioch and from there went out and then went to Jerusalem._ _Paul did many things backwards to Jesus' teachings and instructions._

[@pissanukatika3720]

They believed God called Jesus to work for Him as a servant and they followed Jesus to help him .

[@Via_Negativa22]

Not only he thought he was God but he thought we were God too.

[@thegrunbeld6876]

Losing your conviction in your religion is a very painful process. Realizing there's no miracles in the world and there's just this cold harsh reality where no inherent meaning exists.

[@johndenugent4185]

And how do you know there are no miracles? Many people have had supernatural experiences. You might look up Near-Death Experiences and also the hard evidence for reincarnation at the University of Virginia Medical School; even atheists are stumped trying to explain everything away.

[@dlandon2000]

Megan, those are my favorite of all your stylish glasses

[@saftabracha1140]

Personally I think they were trouble makers distorting G-D’s Torah. Total Blasphemy.

[@CMA418]

Thank you Jesus for Bart Ehrman! Without you we may not have him!

[@CMA418]

And Megan too!

[@sherwinsy7250]

Amen😅

[@fidelcatsro6948]

Jesus replied on my nokia: Without God i can do nothing, so thank the Heavenly Father, your God and My God!

[@johncollier7419]

Great questions, great answers, great episode!

[@sabaffira]

Thanks Dr Ehrman. I was brought up a Muslim and always wondered why this non-divinity of Jesus was emphasised so much in the Quran and why Muhammad didn’t just align himself with the Christians’ belief and receive the backing of the mighty Roman empire. It seems Bible scholarship is in line with the Islamic teaching regarding Jesus’s divinity.

[@Zalemones1]

Yeah, but if you think about it, it is very likely that bible scholarship massively disagrees with much of muslim theology as well. I'd say this is much more of a "supernatural explanations are not reliable and do not yield any useful information" kind of thing, which favors general claims against supernaturality. If you apply textual criticism techniques to the Quran, as well as cross-checking with other sources, it is very likely that any supernatural claims will also be deemed to be either unlikely or completely fabricated.

[@sabaffira]

@@Zalemones1 It all hinges on the likelihood of the supernatural’s existence. I am inclined to believe a superior intelligence exists and the similarities of these teachings came from the same source. But I understand, any modern scholarship does not accept any suggestion of the supernatural. Again we have to define “supernatural”. A 400 tonne iron floating in the air transporting 400 people would be a supernatural act just 100 years ago.

[@Zalemones1]

@@sabaffira I mean, as long as it can be done throughout strictly natural phenomena, then it is natural regardless whether people understand it fully. Do you believe that any claims in religious texts of your choice can and should be regarded as not supernatural? I don't want to misrepresent your point. Because, if that is the case, then that claim leads to a conclusion that divinity can exist in strictly natural conditions and doesn't need to be "outside" natural existence. In that case, god or divinity is just another unexplained worldly effect. Sounds a little like the astrounaut gods thing haha

[@nothingand779]

What?

[@nothingand779]

​@@Zalemones1 Islam agree with divinity of jesus?

[@donmilland7606]

I must concur. Those glasses are cool!

[@zapkvr]

Meghan is the perfect host for this series. Her curiosity is infectious. And a delight.

[@justjukka]

She's so good at guiding the discussion! I would get us lost in the weeds in no time. 😂

[@ME-yp7fn]

"No person to whom God has given the Scripture, and wisdom, and prophethood would ever say to the people, “Be my worshipers rather than God’s.” Rather, “Be people of the Lord, according to the Scripture you teach, and the teachings you learn.” [Quran 3:79]

[@JesusisaMuslim]

SAY NO TO TRINITY! Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Mark 12:29. Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord . 💖☝God says: Qur'an 112:1-4. قُلْ هُوَ اللّٰهُ اَحَدٌ  "Say, He is Allah, [who is] One," (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 1) اَللّٰهُ الصَّمَدُ  "Allah, the Eternal Refuge." (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: verse 2) لَمْ يَلِدْ ۙ وَلَمْ يُوْلَدْ  "He neither begets nor is born," (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 3) وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهٗ كُفُوًا اَحَدٌ "Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 4) .

[@geraldsurya9450]

cool glasses!

[@stuartdryer1352]

As a physiologist, I award Megan extra points for use of the term "permeable membrane".

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

She can tie her shoes and make her bed too.

[@truthmatter9972]

Very rich discussion. The shocking news to me is that the lack of the monotheism in the Jewish tradition and presence of the henothesim ( In min 16: 30 - to 21;30) .

[@Muhammad-pz1bp]

This matter was already cleared by God 600 years after Jesus , Quran 5 : 116 " And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” He will answer, “Glory be to You! How could I ever say what I had no right to say? If I had said such a thing, you would have certainly known it. You know what is ˹hidden˺ within me, but I do not know what is within You. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Knower of all unseen."

[@petmensan]

I’m just glad someone was there to answer the questions about what happened.

[@JesusisaMuslim]

Jesus was a prophet and not god. The people living around him knew he was a prophet. Nobody called Jesus everlasting father, mighty god or prince of peace. John 4:19. 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. Luke 24:19. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, Jesus even called himself a prophet. Luke 13:33. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. .

[@stantorren4400]

@@JesusisaMuslim They also didn’t call him a muslim. They thought of him as a Jewish Rabbi, because that’s what he was.

[@JesusisaMuslim]

@stantorren4400 The word Jewish is not in Bible. The word Jew came from the name Judah. Its only a tribe name. Nice to educate you.

[@stantorren4400]

@@JesusisaMuslim But then why did the tribe name of the people of Judah? Simple, because the other tribes of Israel did not remain Jewish. The people of Judah whom were exiled to Babylon still worshipped the same religion, while the other tribes assimilated to other cultures, hence, the term Jew came to used instead of Israelite to describe someone who followed the Hebrew Bible.

[@JesusisaMuslim]

@@stantorren4400 Like I said, jew is only a tribe name. And Jesus was definitely not a filthy pig eating lawless trinitarian.

[@stantorren4400]

@@JesusisaMuslim Neither was he a muslim born from a virgin. Most of the bible doesn’t even mention his birth. Mark and John never mention his birth, while Matthew and Luke do for bs reasons. Matthew because the author had a mistranslation of the bible, for instance in Isiah, where instead of a young woman who’d help save Israel, translated it as a virgin, so it comes from someone not understanding the bible. Luke does it to prove Jesus’s divinity. Also, he was crucified. He didn’t come back, he’s dead. Just as dead as any other man around him 2000 years ago

[@dr.nabilalayyoubi5122]

You love how diverse these views are ?!!! You love how CONFUSING these views and ideas are !!! You love how everyone has a different view of what god is and isn’t ! If Jesus is god or isn’t ?! From the time of Paul passing through the council of Nicea people and even Christian factions are still debating whether or not jesus is God !! Do you really think God wants to confuse us about what he is and then later on judge what we believe ?!!!

[@cathykrueger4899]

I have never felt qualified to opine on what God wants or doesn’t want.

[@vegadog3053]

What if every one has a divine spirit in the temple of their body?

[@AlexLightGiver]

They do. It doesn't manifests here in this 3D density we call the physical world

[@learningisfun2108]

Using “if” in a question like that makes it, IMO, meaningless. “If my aunt was a car, she’d be a Chrysler”. “If ancient aliens built the pyramids….” “If the earth is flat….” “If unicorns are real, can they fly?”

[@vegadog3053]

@@learningisfun2108 What if you're wrong?

[@learningisfun2108]

@@vegadog3053 😂. Not sure if you’re being cheeky or not. If you are not, I’d ask god why he was so absent and didn’t give decent proof of his existence. And about why he/she created a world with so much needless suffering. I doubt a supreme being would damn me for using my critical thinking capacities to come to reasonable conclusions about the world he/she created. And, to go right back at you, what if you’re wrong about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology, Zeus, or Thor?

[@vegadog3053]

@@learningisfun2108 We are probably wrong about all of it.

[@Chandransingham]

Thanks. Very interesting show. God bless us and keep us in safe places.

[@timlenord1]

Respectfully, I don’t think even Jesus knew who he was.

[@Wong-Jack-Man]

Yea… to me when he asks the disciples “who do the men say I am” I always interpret this as Jesus looking for some sort of validation.

[@Model3GenerativeANdroid]

not accurate according to Islam: _"And mention in the Book about Mary when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place.” “So she took a veil (to screen herself) apart from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit (Holy Spirit) that presented himself to her a perfect man.”_ _“She said: ‘Verily I take refuge in the Beneficent (Allah) from you! if you are God-fearing.” “He (the angel) said: ‘Verily I am only a messenger of your Lord that I bestow on you a pure son’.” “She said: ‘How shall there be for me a son while no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste.”_ _“He said: ‘So (it will be)’. Your Lord says: ‘It is easy for Me, and that We will make him a Sign (miracle) unto the people and a Mercy from Us, and it is a matter decreed. “So she conceived him (Jesus) and withdrew with him to a distance place.” “And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She said: ‘Would I had died ere this, and had been a thing forgotten’.”_ _“Then (a voice) called out unto her from beneath her: ‘Grieve not! Verily your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you’.” “And shake the trunk of the palm-tree towards yourself. It will drop on you fresh ripe dates.” “So eat and drink and refresh your eye; and if you meet any mortal, say: ‘Verily I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent (God), so never shall I speak today with any human being’.”_ _"Then she brought the child to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: ‘Verily you have done a very indecent thing’.” “O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother an unchaste woman.”_ _“Then Mary pointed to him. They said: ‘How shall we speak to one who is (yet) a child in the cradle?’” “He (miraculously) said: ‘Verily I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet’.”_ _"And He has made me blessed wherever I may be and He has enjoined on me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live.”_ _“And (He has made me) kind to my mother, and He has not made me arrogant unblessed.”_ _"And peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive.”_ _"This is Jesus, son of Mary, a statement of truth, concerning which they doubt.”_ _"It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He only says unto it: ‘Be’, and it is.”_ Holy Qur'an - Surah Maryam (Chapter Mary) 19 : ayat 16 to 34.

[@haljordan9607]

​@@Model3GenerativeANdroid Islam is manmade religion created by arabs for arabs. Islam just appropriated the Bible, it's stories and prophets for Islam just to legitimate new religion. What Islam says about Jesus is copy paste

[@wannabe_scholar82]

​@Wong Jack-Man "Who do they say I am" Disciples: Uhhh, idk God, I guess? Jesus: No, seriously, I don't really know what I'm doing here someone help me out.

[@EvilXtianity]

Jesus is a fictional character.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Do you really think Paul believed when you died you went to heaven? I don't believe you.

[@philoyphilia]

I see some muslims commentators attempting to convert us to islam simply because Christianity has some flaws 😂. I am not a Christian anymore, but if I were to choose between joining Islam or Christianity, I would return to Jesus in blink of an eye, hands down.

[@travis1240]

A Christian converting to Islam is like leaving the frying pan and jumping into the fire.

[@fz1205]

Most Scholars of religion believe that all religions are very similar and differentiating between them are like saying English language is better or worse than French or other languages!

[@kencreten7308]

and all the other experts of various kinds telling airmen that he's wrong or right about this or that. The arrogance is entertaining for sure.

[@juannifer32]

I am Muslim if it turned out to be false, and if I had to choose between Christianity and being an atheist I would be an atheist in a blink of an eye.

[@borntohodl2965]

Alhamdulillah..

[@VaughanMcCue]

I am glad I saw this because it explains why St-Doug-of-PineCreek became canonised. It happened in part because St Doug's great grt grt grt grandfather flew across the Grand Canyon- unaided and not as a projectile out of an Howitzer cannon.

[@JesusisaMuslim]

World famous author, Leo Tolstoy said: “Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it. The law of the Qur’an will prevail in the world because it agrees with reason and wisdom. I have come to understand that humanity needs only a Divine law to establish the truth and destroy falsehood. Islamic law will encompass the entire world because it is consistent with reason and agrees with wisdom and justice.” .

[@brianlooksaround6125]

Islam has produced no composers of artistic merit.

[@Martin-tn5lm]

All religions are elements of Human Culture. There's no such thing as "God". When we humans die we're dead in exactly the same way as a dog or a cat is dead. Enjoy life, there's nothing after it.

[@Nonamam]

​@@brianlooksaround6125because art is a crime in pisslam..

[@davidhess6593]

What I never understood is why the Apostles including Thomas didn't recognize him at Pentecost.

[@fasilalemayehuzewdie6931]

Did Jesus' disciples think he was God? I don't think you have answered the question.

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

If you would read the Bible, you'd know the answer is a definite "No." As Peter said, God was WITH Jesus (Acts 10:38) and did miracles THROUGH Jesus (Acts. 2:22) and made him (Jesus) lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). You literally cannot miss this stuff if you read the book. It's disgusting how Christians don't know their own holy book.

[@ShemaHaTorah]

small correction: The Genesis 6 account Bart speaks of with the 'sons of God' and 'daughters of men' marrying, there is NO statement in that text saying that the sons of God "Came down" . Bart is inserting that thought into the text based on his preconceived notion that the term 'sons of god' means Angels or divine beings, rather then the more sober minded interpretation that fits the context of Genesis 2-6 (Adams genealogy) that the sons of God are "Adamites" marrying women of foreign family lines (assuming that obvious that most science minded people know, that no Adam was not the first man on earth, he was just the first man set apart from creation to be in covenant with YHWH)

[@travis1240]

I think it's pretty obvious that the "12 disciples" are mythical. How much sense does it make for a cult leader to pick out exactly 12 people to follow him, and they all immediately drop everything they are doing and follow? Realisticaly people would float in and out of the movement and even if Jesus were trying for 12 to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, he would not have been able to attain that. It's much more likely that the idea that he had 12 followers was a later addition. Yes I know that Paul talks about "the 12" but it's not really clear what he meant or where he got that information. Maybe the idea that he had 12 followers was already a thing in Paul's time. That doesn't make it true though.

[@onejohn2.26]

That's ridiculous the 12 apostles had followers of their own who wrote of them and whose writings exist even today

[@travis1240]

@@onejohn2.26 Paul's writings exist but he wasn't even said to be a disciple - he was an apostle (these are different things). Peter/Cephas probably existed too, but who knows if he actually followed Jesus around as a disciple... Anyway the point is that the idea of Jesus having 12 disciples representing the mythical 12 tribes of Israel is also mythical.

[@TheDanEdwards]

​@@onejohn2.26 If you go through the gospels one comes up with more than 12. As with the family/siblings of the NT main character, the actual number and names appear to have been quite fluid. The NT authors are being more creative than historical with their claims.

[@onejohn2.26]

@@TheDanEdwards you are fulfilling Bible prophecy that in the end times people would come up with a different gospel that is what you are doing

[@onejohn2.26]

@@travis1240 so I assume you're an atheist trying to do the work of Satan good luck with that

[@Pr0t0typeSky]

Was waiting for to this topic

[@voosum]

islamic jesus makes sense

[@stantorren4400]

@@voosum Islamic Jesus still has him born from a virgin and says he wasn’t crucified. It doesn’t make more sense, it actually makes less sense if you think about it.

[@alexklemens6005]

I’m so convinced she works on her day job while he talks and just nods when he has a certain inflection in his voice. That would be so impressive

[@Mubarak386]

🌟 *The True God & The True Worshipers*🌟 ⭕1️⃣⭕ *Who did send Jesus?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 New Living Translation, John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will. ⭕2️⃣⭕ *Who did give athourties to Jesus?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 New Living Translation John 12 49 I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 And I know his commands lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say. 📚 New Living Translation 1 Corinthians 15:28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere. ⭕3️⃣⭕ *Who is greater than Jesus?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚New King James Version Isaiah 40:25 “To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One. 📚 Good News Translation, John 13:16 16 I am telling you the truth: no slaves are greater than their master, and no messengers are greater than the one who sent them. 📚 New International Version, John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. ⭕4️⃣⭕ *If God knows everything, Who does the only God know that day and hour?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 New King James Version Mark 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ⭕5️⃣⭕ *Entering the kingdom of heaven depends on doing the will of who?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 New King James Version, Matthew 7 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he *who does the will of My Father in heaven.* 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 *And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’* ⭕6️⃣⭕ *Who is the God of Jesus?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 American Standard Bible, John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” ⭕7️⃣⭕ *Who did Jesus worship?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚 New King James Version, Luke 22 41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, *“Father*, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. ⭕8️⃣⭕ *According to Holy Bible, which God does seek true worshipers?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚New American Standard Bible, John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the *Father seeks* to be His worshipers. ⭕9️⃣⭕ *Based on Jesus own words in Bible, who is the only true God?* A) Father B) Jesus C) Holy Spirit D) all of the above 📚New King James Version John 17 1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “ *Father* , the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, *the only true God*, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. ⭕🔟⭕ *Where in Holy Bible did Jesus say that "I am God, worship me"?* A) No, Jesus never say "I am God, worship me". B) Yes, Jesus said "I am God, worship me" in holy Bible chapter# verse#. Is it the missing of most important 15 letters in Christianity? 📚 Good News Translation, Malachi 3:6 “I am the LORD, and I do not change. 📚 Good News Translation, Exodus 33:20 I will not let you see my face, because no one can see me and stay alive, 📚 New Living Translation, Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through? 📚 Good News Translation, Luke 22:48 But Jesus said, “Judas, is it with a kiss that you betray the Son of Man?” 📚 New Living Translation, 1 Timothy 6:16 He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen. 📚 Good News Translation, John 9:17 So the Pharisees asked the man once more, “You say he cured you of your blindness-well, what do you say about him?” “He is a prophet,” the man answered. 📚 Good News Translation, Matthew 21 45 The chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables and knew that he was talking about them, 46 so they tried to arrest him. But they were afraid of the crowds, who considered Jesus to be a prophet. 📚 New King James Version, Matthew 21 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, “Who is this?” 11 So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.” ⭕1️⃣1️⃣⭕ *Where in Holy Bible did Jesus say clearly that "the Holy Spirit is the true God" or "worship the Holy Spirit"?* A) No, Jesus never say "the Holy Spirit is the true God" or "worship the Holy Spirit". B) Yes, Jesus said "the Holy Spirit is the true God" or "worship the Holy Spirit" in holy Bible chapter# verse#. ⭕1️⃣2️⃣⭕ *Where in Holy Bible did Jesus say that clearly "the God is one in essence and three persons; Father, Son & Holy Spirit"?* A) No, Jesus never say "the God is one in essence and three persons; Father, Son & Holy Spirit". B) Yes, Jesus said "the God is one in essence and three persons; Father, Son & Holy Spirit" in holy Bible chapter# verse#. ✨ *I ask The Lord of heavens to guide us all to the truth* ✨

[@TheDanEdwards]

Is cutting and pasting now a magic-rite for you?

[@Jamesjacob339]

Either accept the entire stories in the Bible or leave it.

[@Mubarak386]

@@Jamesjacob339 I do believe by Gospel of Jesus only, while the other gospels I believe with verse that seems correct and I don't believe of verse that seems corrupted as God mentioned that it's written by lying pen of scribes. 📚 GOD'S WORD® Translation, Jeremiah 23:36 They should never again say, 'This is the LORD's revelation,' because each person's word becomes the revelation. They will twist the words of the living God, the LORD of Armies, our God. 📚 New International Version, 23:36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the LORD’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God. 📚 New International Version, Jeremiah 8:8 “’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? 📚 New Living Translation, Jeremiah 8:8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the LORD,” when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

[@Jamesjacob339]

@@Mubarak386 Which Gospel are you talking about? Mark 1:15 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. The gospel what Jesus preached it is about the coming kingdom of God and to bring salvation. So are you talking about this?

[@Jamesjacob339]

@@Mubarak386 Which Gospel are you talking about? Mark 1:15 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. The gospel what Jesus preached it is about the coming kingdom of God and to bring salvation this is the gospel what Jesus preached during his life time. So are you talking about this?

[@fordprefect5304]

*Question* Matthew 17 17 Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James, and John, the brother of James, up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 While they watched, Jesus’ appearance was changed; his face became bright like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 Then Moses and Elijah[a] appeared to them, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you want, I will put up three tents here-one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” *Wouldn't an all knowing all powerful god know Moses is a myth*

[@firstnamelastname3280]

It’s clear that Jesus is Jesus and YHWH is god. I don’t understand how people call Jesus god. It’s abundantly clear.

[@sherwinsy7250]

Because of that holy trinity doctrine?😳

[@firstnamelastname3280]

@@sherwinsy7250 I know that. But that doctrine is bs. It’s fake

[@kencreten7308]

I find that when people use words like abundantly, they have picked that up from other religious popular ways of talking. just like when people pray to Jesus many times and they use the word just just this and just that and just Lord wouldn't you just do this for me? abundance is a wonderfully religious word. abundantly clear. if it was so abundantly clear why is there so much debate on the issues?

[@firstnamelastname3280]

@@kencreten7308 because the synagogue of Satan who is in control of the physical system currently has inserted many false teachings into the Bible and also into many other aspects of life. Simple.

[@truthmatter9972]

It was only after the alleged resurrection the disciple thought that Jesus is man -God. Before the alleged resurrection the guys thought that he was a teacher ... rabbi... prophet .....and they hopped he is the messiah and will be a king. When their hope dashed as Jesus disappeared and did not become the king of Israel .... as a Jew at that time, having some Hellenistic thoughts ....they counselled them self ...thinking that he was raised to heaven .... and slowly ...slowly ...exalted him to be son of God and then to be God. During Jesus life …Jesus never thought or behaved like he is God…..his mother never felt …behaved …or…claimed that she gave birth to God ….His disciples, never treat Jesus as he is God. Please Christian give us break from all this nonsense and read John 17-3 ( It is eternal life ….so they may know that ONLY YOU FATHER is the true God ) very clear

[@Timehasfallenasleep]

On the subject of monotheism versus polytheism - I would suggest psychology plays a part. Carl Jung thought that by the process of enantiodromia humanity’s intellectual development had been at the expense of its spiritual (symbol making) capacity. Jung says: “One of the first steps in this direction was the establishing of an official state religion, a further step was the rooting out of polytheism, the first beginnings of which is to be found in the attempt of Amenhophis IV.” Judaism did the same. I would suggest the final step in the process of spiritual devolution is the modern phenomenon of Bible scholars like Bart and Megan.

[@diosdadosasil1559]

No, his disciples only saw Jesus as their TEACHER and LORD, as attested by Jesus' words in John ,13:13. .Apostle John declared Jesus only as the SON of God and the Christ of God only in John 20:31 and in 1 John 5:1,5. Apostle Peter only IDENTIFIED Jesus as the SON of God and the Christ only in Matthew 16:16. . The Apostle Paul teach and preached Jesus as the SON of God and the Christ of God only in Acts 9:20,22; Acts 17:3; Acts 18:5,28. Martha, the sister of Lazarus, only declared that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ. NONE OF JESUS DISCIPLES EVER SAW JESUS AS THEIR GOD, NONE AT ALL.. .IT IS THE CHURCHES ONLY THAT MAKES JESUS GOD, APOSTATE CHURCHES.

[@smeatonlighthouse4384]

Yes, most definitely. The apostle Peter as their spokesman said 'Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God'.

[@InterestedInDansk]

Chapter XV *Christ Not God, But the Son of God* When Simon heard this, he said: “Since you say that we ought not to believe even the prophet that gives signs and wonders if he say that there is another god, and that you know that he even incurs the penalty of death, therefore your teacher also was with reason cut off for having given signs and wonders.” And Peter answered: “Our Lord neither asserted that there were gods except the Creator of all, nor did He proclaim Himself to be God, but He with reason pronounced blessed him who called Him the Son of that God who has arranged the universe.” And Simon answered: “Does it not seem to you, then, that he who comes from God is God?” And Peter said: “Tell us how this is possible; for we cannot affirm this, because we did not hear it from Him. *Homily XV1 chapter XV Clementine Homilies*

[@trailersongs7746]

This is wrong!!The very reason why the pharasees decided for his crucifixion was that he teaches them as he is equal yo the yaweh....which means he was conveying his message as if he is thesame to GOD!!!!!

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

There’s only one Actor, that One is God. And we are just a bunch of characters, everything is. Does this ring true?

[@stussysinglet]

I think it is definitely true at least as a metaphor... Not sure if our individual experience or consciousness exist after or outside death...

[@BeesWaxMinder]

if Jesus was supposed to have a twin then was that twin present when the post-mortem sightings of Jesus happened? Could it be that they were mistook Thomas for Jesus?!

[@BeesWaxMinder]

27:03 - GO FOR IT!!😉👍

[@jimmygravitt1048]

These are my favorite glasses so far of Megan's. The other ones distract me. Bart needs slightly bigger ones, so his eyes are centered.

[@InterestedInDansk]

25:00 Luke 20:41-44 confronts Matthew 1:1. That the Word is audible in Jesus through His statements is obvious. Yet Matthew is not in error because his statement confirm Isaiah 49:3 _You are my servant Israel in whom I shall be Glorified_ The Messiah springs from Abraham, through King David.

[@Lovingkindness.]

I have watched for decades as people debate this topic. Yet all the arguments and divisive fighting is based on a belief. One believes his divinity and other does not and they both use scripture to back up their beliefs. My view? Something perhaps written by Solomon , “He (God) has also set eternity (Olam) in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.” I like that: MAN CAN NOT FATHOM. Wisdom tells me to hold no permanent view, especially one that is so divisive as this is. The flesh loves war and argument and division. The spiritual man avoids such things. Grace and peace.

[@mzmscoyote]

And then there is Exodus 4:24-26 where God comes down and is going to kill Moses until his wife, Zipporah, intervenes. Who knows what this story meant to the original tellers??? To me it reads as a powerful woman stopping God from doing his thing. I have always admired Sarah for laughing at God, but stopping God in his tracks is even more impressive.

[@nedsantos1415]

My favorite bible scholar.

[@Thoughtpologetics]

He wasn’t all knowing or all Good… he didn’t know the time or hour, he was unaware of his final fate asking God to save him, Jesus didn’t know a fig tree had figs, “he grew in wisdom”… Jesus even said there is no one good, not even him, but God… the Bible says God is not man, or son of man… Hebrews 2:10 says God had to make Jesus perfect… Come on Bart

[@Kyeudo]

So, you are appealing to several different books to try to set out what the Gospel According to John portrays Jesus to be? You've tripped over yourself before you even started. Make your case using the Gospel According to John and nothing else or you are arguing for a view that none of the authors involved held.

[@Thoughtpologetics]

@@Kyeudothis was in reference to when Bart said people majorly think Jesus was all knowing, 50/50 God man, like around the 34 minute mark, and Bart didn’t dispute any of it other than, Jesus was fully God and fully man… And that’s where my comment came from… not about the Gospel of John

[@Thoughtpologetics]

@@Kyeudo But John doesn’t say Jesus is equal with God or call him God like Bart said…. John 8:40 Jesus says he’s a man, John 17:1-3 Jesus says to God he hoped people “know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” Jesus says in John 20:16, “I am ascending to my father and your father, to my God and your God”… Jesus had a God… the same God we have… John 14:28 Jesus says, “the father is greater than I”… but they are equal? And this goes in hand with John 5:30 “by myself I can do nothing” same with 5:19… The only verse that you can say in the entire gospel of John is John 20:28, where Thomas says “my lord and my God” and even this is contested…

[@Kyeudo]

@@Thoughtpologetics _["this was in reference to when Bart said people majorly think Jesus was all knowing, 50/50 God man, like around the 34 minute mark, and Bart didn’t dispute any of it other than, Jesus was fully God and fully man…"]_ The majority of Christians are Catholics, who do believe that Jesus was all-knowing, fully god, and fully man. _["And that’s where my comment came from… not about the Gospel of John"]_ The gospel that says Jesus is god the clearest and loudest is the Gospel of John. _["But John doesn’t say Jesus is equal with God or call him God like Bart said…."]_ John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." So, the Word was God and became flesh and he is the Son. Jesus = Son = Word = God. _["John 8:40 Jesus says he’s a man,"]_ First, it says "As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things." You might as well substitute "person" instead of "man". Second, check more translations. Many of them capitalize Man, turning it into a title. Third, how does being a man conflict with being a god? _["John 17:1-3 Jesus says to God he hoped people “know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”"]_ And what about that contradicts John's opening Jesus = Son = Word = God logic? _["Jesus says in John 20:16, “I am ascending to my father and your father, to my God and your God”… Jesus had a God… the same God we have…"]_ And what about that contradicts John's opening Jesus = Son = Word = God logic? _["John 14:28 Jesus says, “the father is greater than I”… but they are equal? And this goes in hand with John 5:30 “by myself I can do nothing” same with __5:19__…"]_ And what about that contradicts John's opening Jesus = Son = Word = God logic? Honestly, you seem to be stuck in a monotheistic mode, where there is only one divine being and that divine being cannot be in any way human nor can that divine being divide itself into pieces. _["The only verse that you can say in the entire gospel of John is John 20:28, where Thomas says “my lord and my God” and even this is contested…"]_ Contested by whom? How?

[@Thoughtpologetics]

@@Kyeudo Oh I’m sorry I missed where it said Jesus was God in John 8:40… could you point that out to me again, because he is obviously clarifying he’s a man/person… even in that verse he’s saying he’s just a man saying what he heard from God… Which leads me to John 1:1… Here’s a portion from the book, Re-Religion, “In the last part of John chapter one verse one we have “and the word was God”, but most Greek scholars with no ties to religion, translate this more along the lines of, “"the Word was God in essence”. Daniel B. Wallace wrote the same thing in his book, Greek Grammar: Beyond Basics, and Mr. Wallace is an expert on this very topic. People like Benjamin Wilson, J. M. P. Smith, E. J. Goodspeed, Siegfried Schulz, Johannes Schneider and many others have translated the end of John chapter one verse one to mean “God like”, “a God”, “divine” or “deity”. Many of the translations that insist that the Word is God, do so out of theology rather than what is most accurate.” Jamison-Fausset-Browns commentary says “was God-in substance and essence God; or was possessed of essential or proper divinity.” Or the Cambridge Bible for Scholars commentary actually says this “the Word was God] i.e. the Word partook of the Divine Nature, not was identical with the Divine Person. The verse may be thus paraphrased, ‘the Logos existed from all eternity, distinct from the Father’” so even according to people who wrote commentaries on the Bible, people who know way more than you or I say John 1:1-2 could easily read, “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was divine. 2 This was in the beginning with God”…. So yes the word of god was truly divine and became manifest in Jesus… So John 17:1-3 blatantly shows there’s a separation between God and Jesus… even if you want to take the church doctrine stance of Jesus=God (because it’s not biblical) how does Jesus making this case for a clear and obvious separation prove they are the same??? He’s saying hey it’s two totally different things and you look at that and say “the same”??? Same with John 20:16… how is Jesus God but says he has a God… THE SAME GOD WE HAVE… so even with you son=word=God logic or whatever, JESUS IS TELLING NO… my God is your God, there is a clear separation between us… If Jesus=word=son=God or what ever is true, How is God greater than him, is JESUS LYING… you keep using equals and a string of one words as if that proves anything… Jesus can’t be equal with God if he says from his very mouth God is greater… but no throw out some more equals signs as if that’s any type of logic… The fact of the matter is John does not teach Jesus is God or that he and God are equal… I believe in the Bible not some church doctrine that has to skew things and presuppose things to try and validate Jesus, God and the Holy spirt are the same or same essence or whatever… It ain’t in there

[@guidosalescalvano9862]

Could I say the older parts of the Bible don’t even say you can’t worship other God’s, as long as you place Elohim higher?