Becoming a Witch: Essence vs. Process

[@jlojai]

These micro identities (even the gravitas of that term!) make me roll my eyes. You’re either a witch, or you’re not. Everything else is just interest. That’s my old lady view. I appreciate your comments about how we as witches keep reaffirming our origin stories. It’s very similar to the Deaf community where origin stories are a critical part of group identity. I’d love to hear more on that.

[@naahhhhHHHHHHHHHH]

it's very consumerist. late stage capitalism encourages these micro-identities in order to sell us things more efficiently.

[@a.hoftmaurer3402]

I think about this a lot. I wonder how much is us having learned to see ourselves through a marketer's lense. Also, what if the "essence" is itself "process"?

[@glitterandnaps]

This was really helpful to me. Thank you. ❤

[@tomzadvydas1758]

A lot of thought goes into these. Thanks Thorn

[@gastronomist]

One word that I hear a lot and relates to this topic is “resonate”. Someone will read a book, etc and they’ll say that the ideas 'resonated' with them. Physical items resonate because of the nature of those items and the implication seems to be that if ideas resonate with someone, it is because of his or her nature. To me it looks like they are just ideas that he or she already believes.

[@adrienvanore5690]

There's a lot to unpack with this one. While I largely agree with nearly every point you make, I'd like to touch on one point in particular: discovery vs action. I've been a witch since I was born, raised with morals and ideals as opposed to rituals and ingredients. Because my family lives in a very fundamentalist area, we kept labels off of our traditions. Due to this and other factors, I honestly didn't realize that I was a witch until I was eleven years old. (Another story.) This was my Discovery phase. The realization that I had a solid basis for feeling and doing the way that I did led me to the Action phase of my craft. Everyone must experience Discovery in order to take Action, witches et al included. There does not have to be any mutual exclusivity here. And this notion isn't limited to a spiritual or religious setting. Thanks, Thorne. Blessed Be to everyone 💛

[@peterkrueger6518]

It's a tricky thing to enter a community of unique individuals, where the very thing that usually makes you unique in greater society -- i.e. the label "witch" as an identity -- is the thing that *everyone at the table already has.* I wonder if that's not a factor in the constant expounding and refining of micro-identities.

[@generoley]

I like the Fender guitar on your thumbnail… except, I prefer synthesizers. LOL. Seriously, I’ve been enjoying your videos and found your essential books video very helpful. Thanks.

[@PandorasExecutioner]

i do see how a new witch can get overwhelmed by the labels and think this is what it's about, especially with how social media orients witchcraft. i think it's more accurate if people would see these subcategories as "subjects" or "topics" within the broader exploration of being a seeker. in which case i love hearing from witches who practice what i dont. but i have curated a community of specifically queer chaotes cuz that's my vibe. these are the people whose magic i most resonate with. and among us, some of us have extra specialties in herbs or spirits. i think it is super fun to learn which specialties any witch has, what comes easy and what doesnt. i admit with the rise of eclectic secular witchcraft, wiccan is not cool among the kids lol. sorry thorn. i absolutely LOVE all your works because of your academic approach and how you've been able to contextualize all the noise through major authors and history. but im one of those people who didnt want to do the wiccan reed. 😂😂 but your content has shown me how much eclectic witchcraft starts with a wiccan base!! so even tho we try to distance ourselves, we have not succeeded. so i watch your wiccan stuff to see the overlap with my practice. and i really love the coven work you do because eventually that's what i want but with chaos magicians. not exclusively chaos, but because sigils and gnosis are my raw materials and starting alphabet

[@drawingKenaz]

Hahaha I love this comment. Thank you!

[@damattice23]

I listen to you because you present as a well balanced, humble human that I would be friends with. Secondly, because I consider myself Pagan and dabble in and am learning about the craft.

[@drawingKenaz]

Thank you so much! That’s very kind! 💙

[@crimsonhope9394]

I'm a European (so not related to America at all) and for me it's been both of those aspects. I've always been very curious about other cultures, religions, believes, I always thought that there were a bit of truth in everything, that put together contributed to create my own truth. So when I was younger and people asked me what my religion was, I always said that I had my own religion. When I then approached wicca/witchcraft/ paganism it was like finally finding myself, because it was the closest "thing" I've ever found to my believes, and at the same time learning something new and rediscovering a person that was already there but not on a conscious level. My motto has always been "take what feels right and leave the rest". This is why if I had to define myself as a practitioner, I would say that I'm an eclectic witch and my religion is paganism (still and forever in the process of learning and discovering).

[@CandySoulAndSoil]

Yes this is exactly what I’ve been pondering lately. Loved this 🥰

[@garycoates4987]

Do you have a video playing your guitar??

[@nu61]

So I watched this roughly 4 months after it was posted and I have some comments and questions. Some of these will be touched on in both. First the comments. I love the video and the concepts and ideas you touched on. I personally think that ALL information is for EVERYONE (sorry for the caps but I truly think that). That being said, all this information, in my opinion, can and should be combined and reformulated and assimilated as we grow. I like to learn about different spiritual practices and ways to interact with the Divine. Now for a couple questions. Specifically within the magical community at large is there not a desire to expand one's knowledge base or am I looking at the whole world differently? I know that people will tend to find something that they like or something they gel with and roll with that but is there no sense of exploration or does it have something to do with maybe loyalty and upholding a specific doctrine or set of practices? Sorry for the really late and long response but these thoughts and questions form the basis of my beliefs and practices. Let me know what you think...

[@JarredTheWyrdWorker]

Interesting video and I love a lot of it. I did want to comment on the whole "I love this book, but it's not X" thing, though. Not everyone means it to suggest that X is a problem. In my case, I do it to avoid people mistakenly thinking I'm claiming to be something I'm not. In fact, I'd use my love of your book on Traditional Wicca as a prime example. I love it. I think most people would benefit from reading the first half of it at least in order to clear up some common misconceptions about Traditional Wicca. When i recommend your book, I often stipulate that I'm not a Traditional Wiccan because I've had people do the jump from "Jarred likes Traditional Wiccan" to "Jarred is a Traditional Wiccan." To be frank, to allow them to remain at that conclusion feels like me -- even if indirectly and unintentionally -- claiming an identity that I am not entitled to. So I clarify that no, I'm something else. I just think that even though I'm not personally a part of it, Traditional Wicca can be a beautiful thing that deserves to be understood and appreciated.

[@drawingKenaz]

Oh absolutely! A lot of the time, it’s no problem at all, and people are understanding when we recommend books outside of our own traditions. I was thinking about those times when it really is framed like “X thing is in this book and therefore it is bad.” But even that’s usually really clear and easy to discern! Thank you for your thoughts! I really appreciate it. 💙

[@CarriedAwayWithDolls]

A couple years ago I was in a metaphysical shop and the shopkeeper reccomended a wiccan book to me. I told him I wasn't Wiccan and he told me that that wouldn't matter and I bought the book (don't remember which one). I remember loving it and getting so much from it despite me not being Wiccan. As a matter of fact I got so much more from it because it not only laid to rest some of the garbage and misinformation I'd heard about Wicca, it taught me more than I was seeking to learn. And it added to my practice. I found that my practice shared so many commonalities with the practices and traditions in the book.

[@ReginaCopado]

I've had a similar experience lately. When I read The Witch's Path, I was impressed by Thorn's experiences as a Wiccan, so I jumped straight into Scott Cunningham's books to learn more abou REAL Wicca (as opposed to all the biased information we see online). I like a lot of what I read and I'm going to incorporate some things into my practice. However, if you label yourself [Instert type] witch and only read books about that, you never challenge your own points of view and miss a lot of chances to grow!

[@LHA_1978]

Thank you for saying this. I've been studying for about a year and a half now, on my own, and collecting SO MANY BOOKS, watched videos, etc....and it can get *incredibly* confusing. x_x;;;; I think you're right in that trying to categorize everything a bit too carefully can be incredibly limiting. If I like nature, but also work indoors in the kitchen, but also have candles and crystals, I don't want to have to define that as ____ kind of witch. It's all a means to an end. My grimoire has a definite mix of different stuff. And I'm certain that, despite drawing on more ancient and elder knowledge, that the ancestors and ancients didn't categorize things nearly as carefully. They would probably think we're missing the point by trying to be so precise. I don't want anyone to get mad, though; if it makes one feel better to call oneself a particular kind, and JUST stick to that one kind, then great! But I don't want folks (especially myself, lol) to feel bad or like they are doing it wrong if they venture out of whatever category they've labeled themselves as. (All this reminds me strongly of categories in underground music, but that's another discussion for another time and place.)

[@RachelStormborn]

I've always enjoyed the depth of your videos. As a Psychologist (retired) I would add that human beings are herd animals. We self-regulate into groups of like minds. It harkens back to our distant ancestors where being a part of a group meant safety, belonging, etc. Otherness is always suspect or worrisome from that perspective because it could upset the boundaries of the group's identity and the safety that comes with it. We see this tendency to group identity in all aspects of human life in politics, religion, gender, race, etc. It is hard-wired into our DNA.

[@TheStarryPath]

Thanks for pointing out interesting things I haven’t thought about! I can tell you that being Scandinavian, I have seen people on forums for years stating: “I read xyz and discovered that this is what I have believed/practiced all along”. So it’s not solely an American thing! :D

[@merri-toddwebster2473]

Am I hearing background birds? Nice.

[@drawingKenaz]

Always!

[@fairytalegirl]

This was an interesting vid! :) I'm British and as a young teenager found Wicca and had exactly that thought of "this is what I've always believed" lol. As I've grown up and my beliefs have changed, I've began reading/consuming more and more information about different practices/orders and have realised that really, they're all interconnected in some way, shape or form. Thank you for the video!

[@AstralLadyTarot]

Same here! So interesting

[@someonerandom256]

I use the labels to help me buy the right books, and that's about it.

[@someonerandom256]

I should clarify that I mean that it helps me buy the right book when I am looking for literature on a specific topic.

[@PrettyAliceNight]

This is interesting. I guess o can see what you mean but when I’m looking at books, researching and learning I like to learn about everything, not just what I believe. I think the more you know the better. Even if you don’t agree with something or believe the same things I find it interesting to learn those different things and think that by being able to learn from different beliefs you can better develop and understand your own. If all you ever try to learn about is what you already believe then how will you ever grow?

[@defiantturtle8284]

I think labels can be helpful for adding structure to a practice and for explaining what type of content is covered in books and other media. Though, it is definitely important to not confine yourself completely to said label. As a beginner, it surprises me the number of people who seem to have the line of thinking of "I am x type of witch so I only engage with x type of content/witches". Like, how can one possibly expect to advance if they are not willing to engage with other ideas and/or change? Currently, I label myself as an art witch because most of my practice is art related or I incorporate art into it in some way. I admit, I may have latched onto a label too quickly (though it's based on the things I've been doing all my life, whether or not I called it witchcraft or magic at the time), but it doesn't stop me from exploring, practicing, and incorporating other forms of magic. Though, at least in my case, if I only sought information from people who had identical beliefs to me and practiced in the same way, I would have an incredibly difficult time finding information. Perhaps if my beliefs combined with my specific practice were more common I'd be more likely to be more prejudiced when seeking information

[@rhaevynparham4364]

Lovely video as always! I think one of the things that often seems to be tied in with the self-discovery type of engagement with witchcraft is the idea of legitimacy as a way to fight off impostor syndrome or as a way to feel extra special/unique/witch or whatever. I won't go so far as to say this is a thing for everyone that follows a more self-discovery path, but there are many that have made statements that reflect it. A "this matches what I have felt, so I must belong with this thing" vibe. I have certainly felt that way plenty of times with just witchcraft as a whole. I also like that you used the term phobic when describing when people say "but they also do these other things I don't really agree with" when recommending creators and other witches. It smacks of the "tolerate" instead of "accept" view of things that, as a queer person, I am very aware of. It's like a weird justification catch-all reason the person doing the recommending likes the creator/witch despite the "wrong" types of witchcraft being used - instead of just allowing room for the creator/witch to exist as is and not being ashamed about liking them. Hope that made some type of sense. Lol

[@witchjoseph3492]

I learn so much from your insights into the processes and dynamic of witch communities...I love the dialogue surrounding these things... It's so edifying and empowering.

[@vincentzack]

I am not a Witch but I follow Witches on their individual channels. I can relate to their view of Peace, Love and Harmony with Nature and with all people. The Great Goddess of Old, what I refer to as the Creation or Universe is a Universal Consciousness. Some Witches do meditation others don't. I understand exactly what your saying. Most people know a lot but most people don't know their true selves. I find neutral positive thinking during a 20 minute meditation can connect to the spirit within and to the Universal Consciousness. It helps me understand myself more each time. I find that I can get a clear path of my own making. During my education of the Witches of Old I find that they were related to as wise women. I'm sure this is known to you. Witches of today are wise women. Witches of Old were 'very wise women' with a great deal of knowledge about health, illness and healing. They were the bearers of medicine based on natural healing methods, life-energetic methods, and their affirmation of life with rituals and celebrations. Like the Druids of Old, the Witches of Old also meditated in deep contemplation with the Great Goddess, felt connected to the flowing life energy within themselves, connect with the cosmic energy and could let this energy flow through them and have a healing effect on others. They lived a form of spirituality that had not been possible in the frozen and male-dominated structures of the church for centuries. Witches of Old never made charms or cast spells. The knowledge I learned is Witches knew how to prevent or avoid pregnancy when desired. Knowledge that may have taken hundreds or more years shared between different cultures. The effectiveness of plants processed into tea and administered to women. This knowledge prevented pregnancy up to several years. There is literature of historical and ethnological material on this subject by an author named DeMeo. During the so called Middle Ages the Church had banned this knowledge, where it was guarded by Witches. The Church being what it was at the time needed people to convert and control so they labeled these wise women as in alliance with the so-called devil and hunted down Witches like animals. This is an excellent example of the "Dark Ages". To undermine knowledge that had taken hundred's of years to acquire by these women denied the human race and set it back hundreds of years. It is clear to see where evil has it's roots. I also have acquired knowledge about crystals and why they should not be kept (of course free will is always my view and make of this as you may) but I will save that for another time. I do enjoy your channel and look forward to listening to other postings I have not watched yet.

[@samanthacameron4805]

The idea that witchcraft is something you’re born with/into is something I hear alot and it bums me out. It sounds so exclusive and really goes against the very nature of what being a witch means. To me anyway. That’s not to dismiss lineage and family history by any means but what about folks who don’t know their background? I might be off topic a bit but this is something that ran through my noggin as I was watching. Choice. I choose to learn, I choose to grow and change, I choose to be a witch. I choose to define what that means to me. As always, thanks for your thought provoking chats. They give me shit to 🤔. 🖤

[@littlestbroccoli]

For those who've had a hard time differentiating who we are from who the world wants us to be (and won't stop asking us to define, whether wanted or not), it can be immensely freeing to realize there is someone out there who not only agrees and sees things similarly, which is validating, but who has been able to articulate clearly something we have had only a vague and at best tenuous connection to within ourselves for our whole lives. Those who struggle with boundaries and have also had trouble agreeing with mainstream thought and religious belief find it freeing to "find out" who they really are through simply reading about someone else who is similar, while those who've been pragmatic and conscious about their beliefs may not have needed someone to agree with them to help them take their own beliefs seriously. This is strong and admirable, but doesn't negate the need for some to be able to find their beliefs through validation, and I think is just a different flavor of self actualization, not an American hyper individualism or aggregious self focus. I think it's a symptom of a culture that forces us so strongly to be independent. The current iteration of micro cultures is likely related to kids growing up in social media bubbles, and feels different because it's not our own, but may be helpful to them. It is definitely easier to me as an elder millennial to take what I can from books without needing to subscribe to the whole package if I don't want to. Maybe it's also that we all love labeling ourselves when we're in high school and college.

[@kolorninecup7597]

I'm a Material Handler s/witch and they won't sell me the fine point blue bi-c pen in the semitranslucent transparency matching color shield, wherewith methodization use of practice - developed a peculiar ability to have it Rain anywhere in of the vacancy of the head if the attention is drawn to that geographical aria. Through ridicule along with charges have finally brough me the Rainbows' worth of colors, having just gone to Town was only able to procure 2 sets of 4 blue fine points in Over Large Fat Transparent Thick BUBBLE hollow Plastic wraps.

[@tartdarling]

I think that part of the reason why it feels like such an American viewpoint to try to judge content based on how it aligns with our own personal belief is because at it's core, so much of American culture is individually focused, not community focused. A lot of evangelical spaces push personal accountability and how "good" you are compared to others, where in most other countries community is a focus. When you're individually focused you look at how people are different from you, but when you're community focused, you typically focus on how things are similar to you.

[@lynnsmith3995]

If witches had a social equivalent to like, D&D, we’d, as a group, likely feel connected enough to explore those unchecked boxes I think. I adore venturing into other topics of study, but I see relevance in doing so and that value is the catalyst.

[@raffaeledelpizzo8069]

Great video! I love your content. What I'm going to say might sound offending, but this is a personal idea not even closely related to this video but more in general about the wichcraft/pagan community. My thought is that the majority of the community, just like any other community and just like social media as a whole today, in very toxic: the focus on personal growth and spirituality that a path like witchcraft should have is totally lost in nonsense like "what type of witch are you" and so on... fortunally there are still serious people like you who spread infomation and valuable content.

[@tiannasicilia4214]

I feel like what you’re saying here about witches could be applied to society, mostly American society IMO because that’s my experience, where people are attracted to validation of their beliefs and want to see others confirm them. Why should witchcraft be any different than political alignments, etc? And honestly, the algorithms on social media are specifically designed to show you more of what you like so we all end up in echo chambers whether we desire that or not (unless we can manipulate that algorithm in our favor consciously). One thing that I live my life by, and this might be completely ridiculous, but I can’t stop lol. And that is something I learned from the very classic film “A Walk to Remember” 🤣🤣 where Mandy Moore’s character says that one of the items on her bucket list is to befriend someone she doesn’t like. And for some reason, 12 year old me decided I will apply this principle to my entire life and it’s never failed me. It’s not always worked out friendship wise, but I’ve learned a lot by befriending people I don’t like initially. And I’ve expanded that to include “befriend people who don’t share your views or have a different experience than you.” It’s made me a better person despite the slightly cringe source material. I wish more people would go out of their way to find people different from them and have a conversation. I truly believe the world would be a better place if we did this simple thing.

[@SilverSparkles22]

Omg you're recapping of last week's video made me think it was this week, and I knew I'd already seen it and I'm thinking I've been time travelling 🙈 In my defence I'm stressed and I was napping...so good afternoon from the U.K.☺

[@KikiAelita]

While I agree that understanding yourself or enjoying who you currently/purely are is a portion of it, I think there's more than something /wholly/ self-focused going on when people search for content (content creators/authors/communities) that has resonance & similarity with who they are. Some people might be seeking a peaceful anonymous feed bubble, but I personally feel like what I'm always looking for is community. I'm looking for My People. I get that sense when I read a book that discusses ideas that resonate with me, and I don't have access to it a lot of the time otherwise due to the particular weird things I'm not just non-resonant with, but repulsed by. I think for various reasons - perhaps the individualism of American culture in particular! - a lot of folks don't have community, don't have a home turf, don't have a family. They might have these things nominally but not in a way that feels resonantly 'I am among my own kind, I am part of this'. I think this search is identifiable in Pagan & witch spaces with the prevalence of the comment that they felt like they "came home" or in welcoming new practitioners with "welcome home". It is valuable to meet people and experiences different from you. But it's really hard to be interested or safe in exploring other worlds when you don't feel like you have a home to return to yourself. There's also hours of discussion available in the idea of how similar do a group of beings need to be to decide (and feel!) that they are A People collective together. I feel like in the 00s, the bar for "My People" for counterculture or subculture groups (such as Pagans & witches, but also geek/nerd interest groups before Marvel made them cool) was a lot lower. Anyone who read anything Pagan was much more you than anyone else you'd ever met mainstream. Anyone who was into video games was your people, regardless of what they played. Perhaps it's because it's more possible, or at least feels more possible, to find people even more like your interests that now it's hard to "settle" for people who don't look exactly like you.

[@ktmerfeld9612]

If we narrow our focus too much, there's no room to evolve. I totally get what you're saying! I definitely agree we shouldn't settle for one label. Eclectic=master of all areas! Personally, I'd love to master all areas of The Craft so I can be the best teacher to my grandchildren! 🥰

[@graziagiro130]

I guess you're right. Discovering and choosing who we want to be, instead of seeing ourselves as already having that spiritual sprout inside. This is more interesting than it seems. I'll think about it. Thank you.

[@graziagiro130]

Though maybe when we say "I've realized I'm a witch" we simply mean that we found out we were ready for this new path, more ready actually than we thought we could be.

[@Artemis583]

Right away, I was thinking that what you're describing sounded deeply akin to the "new age" movement and the idea of spirituality and being a "seeker" as solely being a way to find oneself in a world that is plagued by disconnection (vs "seeker" as in learning new stuff and seeing what all is out there). In my time of being relatively new to occult studies, reading older texts, and just reading more broadly trying to find out what "witchcraft" even is to anyone who has written about it, that is what has been the most confusing because I can tell that it's not really new age at all but the "modern witch" community has somehow decided that it is and it continues to be marketed that way. So, yeah it's interesting to hear your take as a 'veteran' occultist (for lack of a better term in this moment). There's a lot to be said about trying to spend so much energy defining who one is outside of mainstream religion only to label and restrict the "self" in response to it at the same time. Also, because generationally speaking it seems to be the most important thing to know who you are and how you identify in a sea of marketing and commercialism, that even something so simple as "I choose to be/do xyz" can't simply be enough. You must prove it otherwise it's not valid; what you do can't uphold the scrutiny of the hyper-analytics of social media, or whatever. You can't just study or practice something because you like it, you have to now be an expert and teach it, and monetize and "brand" it, etc...It's all connected to this overarching theme, isn't it?

[@gastronomist]

New Age came to my mind while watching this video, but I think for a different reason. It seems to me that a lot of people who are attracted to New Age because it matched ideas they already had (though I think a lot of those ideas came from pop-culture and the media).

[@Artemis583]

@@gastronomist Yes from self-help and pop/positive psychology, too

[@gastronomist]

@@Artemis583 Yes. Definitely a lot of overlap there. A friend of mine, for example, has a lot of new age ideas but also got heavily into self-help.

[@candysbroomcloset]

Hi Thorn, Indeed too many labels.. Also, why can't someone study to become a witch and another someone be born a witch?..and therein discover, wow all this is familiar and natural...perhaps as recall from a former life or many lives as a priestess or witch, etc? That person would already own it without as much study, yes? Possible. Too many variables..we each have our own unique experiences. All this 'one way is the best or only way' sort of thinking is a big NoNo imho. Great conversation, very needed right now 💜 I edited once to correct a spelling error, than twice to remove the asterisk on your name because that may have been misinterpreted….oy vay! 😝😽

[@pe003]

I am English and that's how I felt when I read Scott Cunningham. Mind you I grew up going to one of England's largest beltain festival so there may have been some fore shadowing

[@pe003]

That is to say, no it's not just Americans and maybe it's more of a recognition that the events of your life have lead you to a point and that you now have foundation you can build on

[@laurihedman5207]

I wonder if this tendency to use books, podcasts, vlogs as "proofs or validations" of who we already are is somehow related to a genuine loneliness that pervades much of the United States. When we don't have actual people who we feel are kindred spirits in our lives, we seek that out in media, and it becomes important to focus on sameness so that we do not feel so alone or misunderstood. Our references become places of belonging when we lack (sometimes through no fault of our own) genuine communion with others. I agree that it is important to seek out, to experience, and to grow from interactions with things and others different from ourselves. And I think this is a bit easier to do when we already feel grounded and at home in a community of similarly-minded people. Thank you for a very thought provoking video.

[@linwong1494]

I think I see what you mean. To me the reason it exists is that a lot of us come from judeo-christian/other religious backgrounds which emphasizes strict dogma as the right way for everyone, and thus the emphasis on the self is 1. an ego thing, typical of being human 2. essential part of why we enjoy witchcraft, because unlike organized religion, there is no right or wrong besides what you decide for yourself, which is empowering but also an easy trap for us to slip into spiritual complacency with what we are already comfortable with, as opposed to healthily evaluating fairly what others are saying and making conscious decisions to change or not. I like to remind myself of the moment I left christianity behind and how that was helpful for me. It was a conscious and painful decision that was done for the betterment of my growth and happiness in alignment of my morals. From there I was love and light, then got into the whole pro-hex debate, and now I'm just a witch. It's a continuous process of growth and it's exciting, so I agree that the growth fo challenges are part of what makes it exciting.

[@SionnachKathuboduva]

IMHO - much of what you are discussing about people being particular to "their" niche - I see the need for that (and the consequence of being or not being whatever particular thing) as a reflection of current sociopolitical realities. There's an expectation amongst many that could be described something like "...if they aren't in the bubble of my particular world and my particular worldview, then there (must be?) some (inherent... irreconcilable) difference which means (we) cannot engage..."

[@gastronomist]

That sound like right wing thinking. I can't talk to you.

[@DavinRaincloud]

It shouldn’t be this hard to have a functional spiritual community free of bullying. The fact that we have constant issues is making me reflect about what I’m really doing here.

[@littlestbroccoli]

If you spend less time online it gets soooooo much better. Trust and believe :)

[@starxvii3292]

I hear this from the Christian community as well. There are so many “types” of Christians and they have many common authors who they subscribe to. It’s like a Catholic and a Baptist both are fans of Joel Olsteen. 😁

[@basilmetternich1474]

Isn't conversion another form of change? I believe labels restrict change... For myself, I believe change brings us freedom, liberty and peace. Thank you, your wisdom is truly uplifting Lady!!

[@Nectar_Ix]

the oak is in the acorn, and vice versa....it is our interaction with the elements where we play out our becoming

[@joutavainen2920]

i think a good comparison might be when bands start to tamper with their songs, it rarely ends up well.. it´s because the original song was the product of (magical) circumstances at a particular moment in time that cannot really be reproduced (better just let go and make new ones). also what can be learned from bands (a witch and three priests really) is that you can become completely blind not only to your own work but the time and scene that surrounds you (which is why in seven years the work already feels "outdated", and possibly "fresh" again in 21 years). i sometimes compare musicians to the traditional learning cycle of shamans (which was seven years here, in some places anyway).. from there one thing is clear if you repeat anything for seven years you WILL become good at it, the downside is that you might also become sick of it (why so many hard quit, it´s a natural reaction to overdose). that is why in my own "crazyness" i do a sort of soft reboot everytime i move (currently five years is the maximum i can tolerate one location). i would argue that if you don´t do that then you might start to seek change in other ways, like the people who are constantly changing their practices, or even themselves (because change will happen regardless, just in what way). i could also say that the first year always feels the most magical (because everything is new) while your actual practice is in shambles (because you have to adapt to the new surroundings). so one could argue that getting better at something doesn´t make it more magical (maybe even the other way around).

[@joutavainen2920]

also i think you can both succeed and fail at the same time. kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGOYg2qifb-enLM if you listen to that song you can hear that the guitarist has finally learned to play it right, especially how he picks in between the parts, very soft and sacred. HOWEVER the same guy then manages to completely ruin the song by playing that horrible solo (that doesn´t seem to fit the mood of the song). so it´s not that the bards are incapable of creating sacred, it´s just that a lot of them are prisoners of wrong methods or formats, namely the pop song format that forces you to merge different melodies together.. i think they they even call it a bridge :) and i know there´s tradition there because the bards of the old also sometimes played some chords between the sacred songs.. the short speaks that the vocalists do i think come from that same tradition, the goal being leading the audience from one story to another (not just being cute and awkward like edie here). i know that the situation is not as bad in witchcraft because it´s less popular and thus more eclectic.. however sometimes it makes me uncomfortable to see videos of young ones when they just blindly repeat the "false doctrines" (that aren´t their own reflections or even from nature / reality). just the separation between those who like nature or reality and those who like fantasy or imagination.. you can´t possibly base their learning in the same knowledge or methods.. otherwise in a year or two when they grow up and realize which side they belong to they´ll go that was all lies, fuck that shit (not what you want, yet happens all the time).

[@joutavainen2920]

just as a comparison, here´s one of our bards (or estonian, but you know uralic). kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpKlknmge8aZhsU i think the difference is when it´s your own culture it hits much deeper, like i cannot listen to that song to the end without starting to tear up (men don´t cry but sometimes we tear up). kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZSVXqlvn66MitE there´s a better video, translations.. from those lyrics you can get an idea why that heaven / hell crap will never take a hold here, because people are into the visible world.. she even has to use a loan word, paradiis, because there is no such thing.. how could there be when it´s all re-incarnation :)

[@earthsprite]

Well, not all these categories are mutually exclusive (and what community *doesn't* make micro boxes and categories for themselves?). For example: I'm pretty sure most witches understand you can be "Green" and also Wiccan, because the two cover different areas. A "green" practice doesn't have anything to do with gods, holidays, or how to run a coven, not specifically anyway. It's more about herbalism and integrating "natural" (?) things into practice. And let's not forget the 90s books series by Wiccan Ann Moura, famously called Green Witchcraft I, II, and III...

[@earthsprite]

On categories: Coming from the space of secular/atheist/science-minded/skeptic/nontheist witchcraft (broad category), we have a number of intersecting micro identities and niches that cause difficulty and drama some of the time. There's secular witchcraft -- not using gods in your practice but not necessarily of atheist belief; there's nontheist or atheist witchcraft that specifically denies literal belief in gods; there's skeptic or science-minded witchcraft, which tends to skew toward materialism/naturalism and scrutiny against "woo" or popular New Age pseudoscience... Now, all that mess lumped together? Part of the reason is because we did not find common ground or community with the hard polytheist and theist groups. So some of these divisions really do feel more concrete because it's like talking to a different culture entirely when in large witch spaces.

[@steveelic3833]

This is where the newer generation are extremely confused. I’m very sorry to say that, but it’s a reality that these newer practitioners are going to have to face at some point, especially when they get into the workforce; or they go through some serious hardships with future family Members, or friends, or even themselves with severe financial hardship or with illness or injury. If it wasn’t bad enough that many of them have excluded (and/or divorced) the Gods from magic (this is absolutely ridiculous by the way, as there has never ever EVER been ANY system of magic documented historically, in any culture or at any time). Magic was ALWAYS connected to the Gods, and these 2 things were always connected to a Religion at those times, as well. So historically, British traditional witchcraft is working off that same classical formula of magic/gods/religion that has been used for thousands of years by countless magical practitioners. As for the naming of different types of witches- geez, here we go again, Blah blah blah blah blah- more nonsense, really (I said this to myself as I saw the word ‘green witchcraft’ Written in various places); Oh people calling themselves a “sea witch” or “Crystal witch” or whatever Other nonsense titles they come up with. Like seriously? Really? Clearly they are very boxed into the small universe of their iPhones and not to the reality of the world around them. And as a practising psychiatrist, I can tell you why they do it. 1. to attract attention, 2. get more hits on social media, and 3. get validation for being ‘special.’ I’ll give you an example I’ve how these titles make no sense. Let’s just say a beginner labels themself a “sea witch”. Well, if they use stones from that beach or from the sea to cast a spell, does that mean that they are also a crystal witch or a stone witch ? Are they going to start labelling themselves as the beach that they practice at? “Hi, I’m Stephen, I’m a Bondi Sea Witch.” Good lord! Less is more. Less is more. What they don’t realise, sadly, is that the word “Witch” on it own, encompasses ALL other labels and sub-labels that they fancy to use. I am a Witch. Sometimes I call myself a “Warlock” because there is historical roots for that as being a magical practitioner in northern Europe. But, those words ON THEIR OWN mean that I work (and am proficient in) any other pre-fix. Sea, Ocean, lake, tree, herb or Crystal or mirror or spirit, … or anything else. The word “witch” on its own inherently means that one has “access” to the magic within/surrounding all of those things, BECAUSE the Gods ‘flow’ and manifest through all of those things- in Nature. All witches use herbs and plants. Calling yourself a ‘green witch’ is weird. And it sounds silly. My recommendation (from a psychological point of view) is that if you are having this desire to search and give yourself a label, because the word ‘witch’ isn’t enough on its own for you, then maybe you should find out why. It could represent something within your own mind, a dysfunctional psychological construct perhaps, where you seek validation or attention (For a myriad of reasons). Also, do your research about Magic and witchcraft, please. Learn and Understand the historicity of what the ‘witch’ actually means, and before the Anglo-Saxons termed it, perhaps investigate what other magical practitioners called themselves historically, and what practices they actually did, In other parts of the world. For example, the Zoroastrian Magi (a priesthood in ancient Persia that worshipped a monotheistic god call Ahura-Mazda, as well as all his angels and archangels (Yazatas and Amesh-Spentas) who served under Him/Her (Ahura Mazda is both sexes, it means ‘Lord Wisdom’)(Ahura = Lord = Male Divine; Ahura = Wisdom = female Divine). It is from this priesthood of ancient Persia (the Magi) that the word Magic actually comes from. After Alexander the great conquered Persia, the Greeks renamed it “Magia”. Can I also NOTE that the modern Religion of witchcraft (which some people label as ‘Wicca’, But which most actual practitioners call ‘witchcraft’- AND it was- and still is- THE original ‘witchcraft’ that kick-started the whole neopagan / neo-wiccan movements later on) ALSO has a God and a Goddess who are the demiurges that emerge from a monotheistic Deity (Which is a form of Neo-platonic model of divinity, and you’ll find evidence of these mythologies in many ancient texts from Persia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome). This is just one example. In ancient Egypt, magic was actually a God unto itself (the MIND of the creator God Re, his Creating mind and ‘consciousness’), who was called Heka. Perhaps research who/what Heka is, And how it was practiced in ancient Egypt. I’m sorry, but to be a magical practitioner (truly) requires an in-depth understanding of the historical/mythological and religio-magical development and origins of these practices that we involve ourselves in today. If you do not have a deep understanding of that, the PURPOSE of which is to give depth and wisdom to your evolving practice, then you’re wasting your time. Naturally, the true and serious student of the occult will do this research. Most others will not… But that is the point of magic. It stays veiled and hidden, even unto the very end to of time itself, and even more so to those who do not respect the power underlying it, which is the Gods. May the Gods and Daemons bless you all on your path, even if that path means leaving magic (and/or witchcraft in the end) 🌺

[@nicerr5247]

Going to point out something. Back in 2015 when I went to my first pagan festival and met a tradition. Mind you I had been solitary for 20 years prior and had never thought of ever associating with a group. I was told I wasn't a witch and couldnt possibly be wicca because I wasn't part of a tradition. I was told I didnt know anything cause I didnt read author's approved by the tradition. This narrative you are referencing came before social media and in my opinion comes from these people telling others they can be "x" because they dont fit "y" mold as well as from the attempt just a short while back of traditions trying to take the word wicca back.

[@pomegranateandivy9833]

The concept of humans becoming aware of their identity is a new thing. People only know this for approximately 300 years and in the collective consciousness it's even newer. I'd say that our generation (I'm your age) is the first generation with parents that are becoming aware of the concept of identity. And at first it's a process of becoming aware that is solely individual!! That's why they want to read amd watch and learn about stuff that they already are!! It's people figuring out their identity. There's a social aspect of this awareness as well, but it takes longer to develop that. If people do, they can start to form communities around several different identities being able to co-exist and learn from each other. And you are already aware of the social aspect! But some people aren't! They just need a little more time to go through the process. 😉

[@bloodsweatandsteel.2749]

I find it very strange that people tend to push back agents wicca so hard. Yall were the trail blazers for every witch in modern existence! Especially Gardenarian wicca. Your tradition was the first to plow the road for the rest of us. For people to talk crap about your religion the way they sometimes do is just ridiculous to me. And very strange.

[@gabrielleangelica1977]

Totally agree! At least Wicca is grounded. Some non wiccan witches are going off the 🛣️ rails...