BEING MEAN TO WHITE PEOPLE | Late Night Debate Panel

[@trashrabbit69]

I'm glad that Vaush, democratically elected CEO of White People, was able to represent us in this panel. Hopefully we are all able to come to an understanding of our differences and finally... Live, Laugh, Love.

[@silentfriend369]

👏

[@Cryptogram44]

I’m so glad he won re-election, he’s such a good representative!

[@patricksikhrangkur8814]

@@Cryptogram44 Nah, he had to cheat to win. Didn't you see that one vod where they moved boxes of votes from one place to another place? Dylan Burns got robbed.

[@Luuuma7]

@@patricksikhrangkur8814 Dylan Burns obviously fails to meet the minimum age requirements to be Representative to White People.

[@TheLivingSeven]

*Live, Laugh, Love.*

[@rayhensel3697]

“Yeah I think people are prejudice against Asain people based on their race, but I would not call that racism.” Bruh lol

[@Dabeast1911Que]

The key element is the sense of superiority. Otherwise it's just prejudice. Kinda how the words work

[@asargentb]

@@Dabeast1911Que That's not true where did you get that

[@Dabeast1911Que]

@@asargentb Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." the oxford definition. there

[@beeohbee]

As a trans person living in the UK, while I don't agree 'TERF Island' is a harmful term, I can at least empathise with Vivian. The UK has a unique flavour of transphobia which can come across as more reasonable to the unwitting public. It pretends to be feminism (hence 'TERF Island'), and is touted by lots of otherwise seemingly normal people, rather than deeply traditional conservatives in the US who to us seem totally unpalatable to start with. Also, despite the broader issues with US healthcare, it seems that a lot of trans folk in the US at the very least have more immediate access to transgender healthcare, while the UK leaves you with the "choice" to either rot for many years first (as a trans person, this is basically not an option because I would sooner kill myself), or do it yourself (which is dangerous), or pay more than the US pays for lower quality care. Neither countries do good enough, but I guess what I'm saying is, the UK requires different conversations to happen in order to help the trans people who live there. With that in mind, I at least empathise with the feeling that there is a fundamental rift between what conversations are necessary to help trans people in the US versus the UK. It can be troubling when America-centric conversations about the matter can be so unapplicable to us, because most conversations about it _are_ America-centric, and I get why it may feel like the term 'TERF Island' represents that. Given that it's a term only used by people outside of the UK, it may feel like there is a lack of understanding, in a world where most people already don't understand us on a day to day basis. Practically speaking, Vaush is right that if anything it just brings more attention to the issue, but at the same time I understand Vivian's frustration on a deep level, and I do agree that Vaush engages in thought terminating cliches when it comes to transgender issues in the UK. We all need help, and I hope more people come to understand how best to fight for trans rights in both places.

[@pocketzed3481]

I'm arguing from feels here, but 'terf island' jokes never sit well with me. It always seems like the point of the joke is "haha, holy shit, life is so bad for trans people over there." I'm trans and I live in the US and I don't want to trivialize the suffering of other trans people; that's not solidarity. If a joke is clearly targeting transphobes, that's fine, but I think 'terf island' jokes kind of dismiss or forget about the trans people who have to actually live there. I oppose terfs because I give a shit about trans people, not as a fun team sports thing.

[@Ironic_daemonic]

Man, I agree with Vivian on a lot of what she says but she's so bad at expressing herself without being unbearable. She's her own worst enemy on this panel.

[@Mark-qx4pt]

Her positions are her own worst enemey, they're completely stupid and also her problem here.

[@Ironic_daemonic]

@@Mark-qx4pt some of her points are for sure, sometimes she makes some sense but other times she is deff too out there and the whole time she was grating and hard to listen to even when I agreed with her on some things (which I've forgotten by this point if I'm honest)

[@Mark-qx4pt]

@@Ironic_daemonic That's fair, I won't get on your case for things you don't even remember. Perhaps I'm too hard on her she just really strikes me as the kind of person that constantly optically hurts her own causes (alot of which I'm sure I agree with).

[@Ironic_daemonic]

@@Mark-qx4pt she's deff an optics nightmare. Like the exact image a conservative gets in their heads when the think of a shouting overly sensitive liberal woke scold with super dumb takes like "don't use gendered pronouns for babies, that's transphobic" "you can't call fannypacks lame that's genocidally ablist" or something equally silly

[@lunali7209]

yall care more abt semantics and tone when its women

[@RazorFringe2]

"Being mean to White people" is the name of my fourth spoken-word album.

[@gaz4553]

Omg spoken word is hot garbage. Lol

[@RazorFringe2]

@@gaz4553 I wouldn't know, this is just a joke I lifted straight from Loading Ready Run.

[@sapiensursus3034]

Based

[@SemiIocon]

It's so weird to me how wokescoldy types just don't understand banter. Like, the Germans and French in my online circles, we make fun about each other all the time because it's good fun, not because I actually hate France and am trying to offend people. That's the difference between banter and bigotry, that you're not actually being serious and cut people off that go too far. It's a useful social skill to have.

[@wout4yt]

I feel it's a very anglo thing to police language without considering the context.

[@acdesegurgels8663]

@@wout4yt in a nation that elected donald trump ?

[@saltking2715]

i think its gotta be give and take, or even better if one side started making fun of their own country/social group first. In many cases these jokes uttered from a different side will fall flat cause they come from a place of ignorance or are just repeating age old stereotypes that might even have been weaponized in the past. Like if a jewish person like sasha baron cohen making fun of greedy jews it will come off a whole lot different than some right wing dipshit. Also you gotta be willing to make fun of yourself first so the other side sees that even if you might chime in on their jokes, its all good cause you can take a hit yourself. Some countries with strong nationalism or most religions struggle with that concept.

[@burkles4456]

@@wout4yt it’s an internet thing.

[@ameliafoley4156]

Crazy that a brit doesn't get banter

[@wildbill7942]

>vivian oh boy, time to break out the swear jar...

[@casperchristiansen2458]

More fucking than an orgy. Edit: If it's anything, I also say it alot. That and "feck".

[@underwherewhore]

As a sailor, I can say with authority: she is gratuitous.

[@christyler5409]

I don't normally care about cursing, but vivian needs to get more creative with their vocabulary

[@yewwowduck]

Agree. It's very much being used as a replacement for vocabulary, rather than for emphasis. Also the constant interruptions.

[@jyw0000]

They say life imitates art. For proof, look at how often they use the word "fuck" in British movies.

[@maywill1]

Completely agree. She is actually kinda ruining the word fuck for me lol

[@davidwooden3878]

Fucking right she fucking does for fucking fux sake

[@Azraelmaximilian]

I feel like wokescolds do this because they've removed all slurs, ableist language, and other edgy speech from their vocabulary, therefore they need to add 3 times as many swear words to every sentence in order to make up for it

[@Dominator150395]

Is Vivian getting paid by the F-word? It's honestly grating to hear it this often.

[@HUMC4L]

I love the fuck word, but it was even too much for me. I don't even use it that much drunk

[@communisticus191]

i honestly didnt even notice it. maybe its just regional, but i hear fuck more at work, college, the grocery store, the school bus when i was in 3rd grade, etc than i did in this video. when i do hear it from someone a lot i tend to just assume that the person is from a current or former industrial region

[@RiverOfWetness468]

Is she the English one?

[@lunali7209]

they have the best takes tho so its fine

[@karayacaona735]

It’s my favorite fuckin word

[@thiagoreis4532]

It's okay to joke about australia being upside down

[@mrgaudy1954]

And about dingos stealing their babies

[@thebalzan9475]

¡¡¡ON

[@Wyrdangus]

@@mrgaudy1954 That’s not really a good one, given the pain and suffering those parents went through for 32 years

[@dreamerfrostbite2066]

As an Aussie I agree.

[@dreamerfrostbite2066]

@@mrgaudy1954 ok that's the only joke I disagree with, its funny but will also come across as insensitive to other Aussies and especially the family. that doesn't make you a bad person or anything though.

[@mlpisepicable]

So many right-wingers here and Viv somehow comes off the most unhinged.

[@waffleandchicken]

Happens every time she’s on a panel unfortunately

[@Andy_Lobo]

destiny must’ve been asleep to have missed this 🤔

[@transquelaag]

I thing 15 or less minutes destiny jumps in lol

[@Lou_Skunt]

Des tiny couldn't reach the dial...

[@casperchristiansen2458]

He was too busy STEALING Vaush's NFT.

[@teigenheffernan1571]

he was in chat and the panel shortly after vaush left

[@archerfan66]

Probably still watching tho

[@buibear88]

Every time I hear Vivian rant, something Republican happens to me 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@caseymiller-bock990]

She really is the worst. Please disinvite her from now on

[@santaclauseking]

F#(k is every other word she says and she talks a lot. Aside from that she also comes across as a very emotionally antagonistic with not the best well thought out stances. She's also too sensitive for my taste.

[@lunali7209]

sounds like a you problem

[@EvillClown11]

@@santaclauseking that is a very British trait I can confirm. I say f!?k like every other word tbh 😅

[@GeekyC]

@@EvillClown11 even I do but I gotta admit she says it waaaaaay to much 🤣

[@ameliafoley4156]

Viv going on about how cool british accents are and stuff is the same reason why we keep making jokes about them

[@hieroglyphics1758]

Twas kinda cringe. It's like the pride without being able to make fun of themself.

[@ameliafoley4156]

@@hieroglyphics1758 with how prominent banter is in english culture, they don't tend to take it well

[@Tacklepig]

Bri'ish accents are objectively horrible.

[@steinmaniac7920]

@@hieroglyphics1758 I'm pretty sure she was making a joke, a là "I'm the first person to finish Bloodbourne". That's the vibe I got, at least.

[@StangerStrange]

She was not being serious. It's excessivley obvious she was being sarcastic.

[@Cubehead27]

I'm only 24 minutes in but it seems weird to me that nobody's pointing out the distinct differences in the cultures of transphobia in the UK vs. the US. The whole "terf island" meme, as I understand it, isn't fundamentally about the proportional volume of transphobic rhetoric in the UK, but about how transphobia usually functions there. In the US, it's typically disseminated along Conservative or Evangelical lines; trans people are considered some new form of degeneracy in a declining culture, or something like that. In the UK, transphobia is most frequently disseminated by antitheists and second-wave radical feminists. Both of these groups are aligned with modernist worldviews, and have in the past been allied with progressives and socialists. But they've been overtaken by the pace of progress, and now they feel (for some reason) like their enemy is on their left rather than on their right. They're basically just contrarians who will push back against whatever they feel is the most dominant political culture of the day. And personally, I think a lot of this comes down to the UK being a highly secularized country with a significant culture of "skepticism", whereas American culture (at least in red states) is largely dominated by Evangelicals, so transphobia has to take a different form to survive. Edit: There are some really good criticisms /complications of this narrative in the replies. Please take a look if I've convinced you.

[@Cubehead27]

@@Blakbox92 Oh absolutely, they're definitely reactionaries, they just capitalize on a different social climate. Like, Canada's pretty secular as well, but the culture around that secularism is entirely different-a lot of atheists in the UK are explicitly antireligious, whereas most atheistic Canadians just don't really care.

[@Joseph-cq3ij]

I don't know why you think transphobia in the UK is coming from antitheists and rad feminists. It's coming from conservative media outlets. Just like the US.

[@Cubehead27]

@@Joseph-cq3ij I mean, I'm both a feminist and an antitheist myself-all I'm saying is that the most widespread rhetoric of transphobia is different. They're still reactionaries on trans issues, they just pretend they're not by presenting themselves as the successors of past progressive movements.

[@Joseph-cq3ij]

@@Cubehead27 I don't entirely agree with that. Most people, in the UK, who identify as TERFs are men and men who hate women at that. It is true that these people are acting as though they suddenly care about progressive movements. But they're not claiming to be successors of past progressive moments. This is just like how, in America, conservatives are pretending to care about the sanctity of women's sports; even though conservatives have never cared about women's sports. They're not really fully committing because they still hate women; they just hate transwomen more. Lonerbox made a good video on this and, if I remember the name, I'll link it.

[@mrgaudy1954]

I don’t even think trans people are much of a hot button topic in the UK as they are in the US. You speak about the groups who are anti-trans as if they are large voting blocs- comparable to evangelicals- but they really aren’t. You certainly wouldn’t be able to build a mainstream political coalition on being anti-trans as you would in the US.

[@yewwowduck]

The definition of murder IS an unjustified killing. Anyone saying otherwise is just playing word games.

[@NyJoanzy]

There is a separate legal definition as with all laws. But that is more accurately listed as homicide.

[@yewwowduck]

@@NyJoanzy Homicide is the term for killing a human.

[@mrgaudy1954]

No way I’m watching nearly 2 hours of this but who on earth was splitting hairs about the definition of murder and why?

[@ballab100]

@@mrgaudy1954 Vivian called Kyle rittenhouse a murderer and someone(don’t know who) corrected her saying the if he was charged of it being self defense he could not be called a murderer. It was very much semantic definitions and legal definitions for about 5 mins

[@djixi98]

Unjustified and _premeditated_ killing of a human being by another. It merely being unjustified can be manslaughter or whatever the particular state law is. This may or may not be pedantic but that's why we need to be careful about the words we use

[@wu8183]

when u only watch vaush for his solo content and don't care about the other characters in the lore. The virgin complaining about Vivian: The Chad doesn't know who Vivian is:

[@Towlapeiwa]

Reading the comments like: “Vivian”? That’s a weird way to spell Vaush but go off

[@UnorthodoxIndividual]

You fell off + L + ratio + you're white will never not be funny But somehow I don't think that's what this panel is gonna be about...

[@valiantshadow89]

Literally as I was thinking “oh, it’s so cool to see Vaush and Vivian actually being kind of cool and bantering a bit, what a nice change!“ He tried the joke about Slavic people, and Vivian got so mad.

[@valiantshadow89]

@Edwin von Carstein You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.

[@thomasandrewclifford]

@Edwin von Carstein I do see where they are coming from though. Slavs have it pretty fucking rough in the UK these days. Even if they are kind of going way overboard with what is an isnt ok to joke about.

[@ashwilliams1725]

I don't recall her getting mad at that, just having an alternate view.

[@SevenHunnid]

I quit my job of 2 years to smoke weed on my KZbin channel full time👌

[@valiantshadow89]

@@ashwilliams1725 mad was probably the wrong word to use. But the joke fell flat. She can be pretty humorless. (She, right? Not they?) Either way.

[@SuperSwavor]

Love how vaush controls the room. Every time lol

[@pathofzeros]

someone has to

[@bafbaas1210]

I didnt love his showing here that much though. He has this aloofness when arguing sometimes and together with his aggressive style and superficial friendlyness makes him kinda arrogant. Like thats obviously his personality blindspot but he has to work on it when argueing about more sensitive topics.

[@mikebiggums1921]

Vivian: "I don't care if Kyle is guilty or not, I'm making a moral argument, I'm not asking for the state to do anything" Me: "Oh she's an anarchist" Everyone else: *Stares blankly before asking what she thinks the law should be again*

[@co-bruh1423]

She’s insane. The court of public opinion seems to be what she cares about more. But in truth, the court of HER OPINION is what she wants to be enforced.

[@sophin7766]

“I think he couldn’t have defended himself because being there was an act of aggression” every guy on the panel “so you think he shouldn’t have the right to defend himself”. Some brilliant minds on these panels

[@SRartz25]

I think in a way both are true. Yes, obviously him being there was an act of aggression, but you still have the right to defend yourself. He definitely should face some criminal punishment but being convicted of murder is another thing. They probably should have went for an easier to argue charge. However, him getting off completely will probably spark similar actions by far right wing people in the future, since it comes across as perfectly legal and acceptable.

[@politiqueen420]

You could be at a place with the intent to start a situation where you have to defend yourself. You can't fault someone for defending themselves but it is only applicable if there was no provocation involved. If there was provocation on behalf of the defender, then they were setting that up, to have an excuse to defend themselves.

[@Tacklepig]

@Raul "ideal world" you mean literally all civilized countries on this earth? The US is the only backwards shithole country that does this.

[@Greatkingrat88]

It's literally a valid point. Why do you lose your right to self defense just because you show up at a protest?

[@sophin7766]

@@Greatkingrat88 it’s just this simple. That’s a clear straw man, you’d have to be not listening at all or have an incredible bias against Viv to think that’s anything close to what she said

[@Akuyoko9001]

at 1:23:00 one guy asks if it would be different if kyle rittenhouse had used a knife instead of a gun vaush just let him also change it so the knife would be concealed but i am imagining a guy walking around a protest "open carrying" a knife. then at one point he stabs someone and kills them, maybe even in self defense, then he continues to walk around open carrying a now bloodied knife... and stabs two more people. it actually makes the whole scenario seem worse to me like it makes it seem less likely he was there to provide fire extinguishing services

[@GotPoopInMySoup]

Am I the only one who finds vivian insufferable?

[@ashfox7498]

Vaush hasn't even talked yet and we're giving a speech on how it's dumb to not like eating dogs, I don't know how it can get worse without being a fascist

[@highlonesomed]

​@@ashfox7498 I only eat meat from non-dogs stored in crates and forced to wallow in their own shit. I'm moral AND classy

[@blargh3428]

No you are not I'm not a big fan of her either

[@ashwilliams1725]

@@ashfox7498 It's dumb if you eat animals to put one particular animal on a pedestal as the one that caan't be eaten because it can't be anything other then an arbitrary line.

[@ashfox7498]

@@ashwilliams1725 Is it dumb to say there's a difference between killing a spider and killing a puppy?

[@GreyGiger]

Viv really is just a black hole when it comes to undercutting fun and humor.

[@rumncoke76]

tbf this time wasn't as bad as usual, she can get really fucking obtuse and petty

[@huntzy4220]

Pretty sure Vivian’s whole schtick is just say some crazy shit so they can run up their “fucking” counter and occupy audio space

[@swampmiester7603]

Vivians only rhetorical strategy seems to be playing into idpol and saying I don't like this thing so no one gets to do it wah.

[@AnEntropyFan]

Do tell me how you're anyhow different than tankies or really Stormfornt members... Caring about basic rights of people who aren't "white" men, "idpol". And this is why Vivian is right, there can't be a peaceful solution - neckbeard speargs like you will debatebro as everyone who doesn't look like you is exploited and killed off. Tell me when should women and people who care about their rights stop being peaceful? Once the state owns their livers to go with those wombs?

[@MethSloth]

@@AnEntropyFan calm down jesus christ

[@foreverdm7000]

@@AnEntropyFan Go take a nap bro, please

[@gordonslamsay8074]

@@AnEntropyFan vivian simp sighted

[@Tacklepig]

@@AnEntropyFan can you at least be wrong without also being ableist?

[@Superbajt]

From what I observe, I think that "TERF Island" is a good description - it's not about transphobia in general, which UK probably has an average amount, but about TERFs specifically. I've never been there, but I feel like (and I know polls confirm it) in UK's mainstream gay acceptance is comparatively high, even many conservatives approve gay marriage, which causes TERFs to be much more noticeable and mainstream. This might even work against trans people - if you want to hate LGBT people, you will be criticized if you attack gay people, but not trans people, so you default to the latter. To compare, in Poland, there is a lot of homo- and transphobia, but in general, if you are a transphobe, you're a homophobe and misogyn as well. When there's a hit piece on trans people in national television, it's never written like "transwomen force lesbians to have sex with them", it's "LGBT bad, look at those icky trans people". Poland is worse in general, but TERFs aren't a cultural problem here.

[@costadinover]

Is the lgbt free areas still a thing? That's how homophobe Poland is.

[@darc8221]

Why does it seem like Vivian is always complaining about things in general and at every comment someone makes, she has something to say (but says nothing). Like the guy who complains about "the man" (government) out to get you, as opposed to the specifics problem. Pedantic comes to mind when ever I hear her speak.

[@burkles4456]

Yes, if you make a comparison she’ll say, “oh well there are differences between the two!!” Like yeah a comparison doesn’t mean they are identical T.T

[@Pwntus]

Or like when Vaush pointed out that "TERF island" is an expression used in criticism of the UK's rampant transphobia and Viv felt the need to respond saying that "well, the US has problems with transphobia too!" - Ironically making it seem like Vivian is taking a stance in defense of transphobic culture when it's in the UK. Like, how can you be such a mind-numbing wokescold in regards to the most milquetoast jokes about different nationalities and then immediately change your mind and unironically promote notions like british accents being inherently more attractive and suggesting we never talk about british transphobia unless we also say that actually the US is kinda bad too.

[@billhicks8]

She just wants to be a contrarian and blatantly thinks she is the most intelligent and important person in the room. Of course she probably doesn't really believe this, and projects hard, but she needs to stop overcompensating, stop swearing incessantly, be quiet and listen to others for a bit. This video is unwatchable for me, purely because of her. It's too annoying.

[@Pwntus]

@@billhicks8 Yeah I gave that vid a 2nd try and, honestly, from the minute they start talking about Kyle Rittenhouse - Viv goes from being the most obnoxious person in the panel to becoming the one making the most sense. (Well, Vaush isn't saying much so from the 30 min mark I'm hearing mostly Viv and a bunch of conservatives and libs aggressively missing all her points)

[@Necroskull388]

I think that Vivian just can't stand hearing voices other than hers.

[@evan6338]

Damn shame too, since her voice is the most grating.

[@AndaraBledin]

Some things people seem to fail to know, and I say this as someone who doesn't think he should have been there: 1) He has family in Kenosha and had been there earlier in the day and he was specifically requested by one of the car dealers to help protect his lot when he put out a fire of one of the cars. 2) He was there to do defense & first aid & fire control; there were many instances where he put out fires and rendered first aid, which he did have training for due to his job as a lifeguard. 3) He wasn't there with the Proud Boys initially, but they took him for drinks after the fact which is where the 4) He was in several groups, including his local FD and PD; he wasn't _simply_ a fetishist. So, some of the shit being said is outright wrong and based on comments made, I'm not sure everybody on the panel even cares about the facts; they just want to vilify the kid. That said, he never should have been there in the first place. He was too young, too inexperienced, and too unsupported. I think Vaush is actually wrong about him not demonstrating that he intended to render aid, because he absolutely _did_ render aid, both in putting out fires and providing first aid, even after the first altercation with the first man he killed. Fun fact: I was part of a neighborhood militia during the 1992 riots. The neighborhood set up a central station to organize, and we checked in, were given specific areas to patrol, and it there was a central control for guidance; it wasn't some ad-hoc, rando bullshit like what was going down in Kenosha. Thankfully, nothing happened, and it was just a surreal chapter in my life.

[@chiveshorses9459]

I’m concerned my listening and comprehension skills are worse after this

[@TMmodify]

53:46 actual child level understanding of systemic racism. Studies show that systemic racism in the justice system exists even if you account for the race of the judge/jury

[@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate]

It's like saying, "well what if there was an all black jury. wouldn't that be systemic racism?" no, because black people aren't racist in that fashion. of course, that could change. nothing is static with social constructs, everything always changes. but "reverse systemic racism" is even more rare than regular "reverse racism". You would have to look in a predominantly black country to make a good argument. And depending on the history of that country, it still might be hard to call it "systemically racist against white people." "A historian is a prophet in reverse." Friedrich von Schlegel, German poet

[@jjdude5531]

@@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate black people just be built different bruh

[@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate]

@@jjdude5531 whatever you say bruh

[@jjdude5531]

@@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate true

[@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate]

@@jjdude5531 coo coo cachoo

[@d3l3tes00n]

If a child abuser died in 9/11, I'd be fine with people making jokes about the dude, but joking about 9/11 in general is kind of a weird take.

[@craigstephenson7676]

I think we should be mean to all people

[@w77eed]

But especially white people.

[@douglaslangley9251]

@@w77eed but especially the french

[@TheStraightGod]

@@douglaslangley9251 Just people in Marseille

[@w77eed]

@@douglaslangley9251 but French > British.

[@thomasandrewclifford]

@@TheStraightGod Parisians definitely deserve a little ire.

[@sweetcornwhiskey]

Holy shit I can't believe that during that panel I felt so aligned with Vivian because the people trying to debate her were so obtuse and annoying. Like I disagree with a lot of what Viv says, but it's not so impossible to come up with reasons that she's incorrect about something that you have to intentionally construct ridiculous strawman attacks against her positions to argue against what she says. That literally just made her opponents look like they just had perfunctory disagreements with what she said rather than actually thought-out reasons why someone with her position would have the incorrect position, which discredited so much of what they were trying to say.

[@co-bruh1423]

She strawmanned Rittenhouse. Calling him a white supremacist just for being there??? This is why normies aren’t Leftists. Y’all are fuckin nuts.

[@sweetcornwhiskey]

@@co-bruh1423 Bro, this was a year ago, but I can still tell that you need to seriously work on your reading comprehension skills if you're under the impression that my comment was in support of her position.

[@badday4885]

Vivian is based, bravo. Feel very similar about sub regions that happen in the US

[@ross3015]

Honestly I don't mind her demeanor plus I agree with most of her positions so she gets a thumbs-up from me. I'm always a little surprised to see how much everyone can't stand her here.

[@zoenut]

vivian so pressed over british jokes like oi bruv yurr not the queen bruv u can josh bout it innit bruv

[@moodycxnt]

I don't think these debates require an intro portion. Just get into it, or it feels weird listening to a 5 min argument with no context that you'll hear again in the near future lol

[@urthosart]

9:07 that was… a joke… vivian… like what???????? edit: vivian makes me cringe way too much idk if i’ll be able to get through this

[@MethSloth]

Same. I always get excited when I see that there's a new panel video, but I have never been able to finish any of them that have vivian.

[@joeyjose727]

I think she knows that but she just doesn’t find it funny

[@Problematist]

Vaush was UTTERLY white in this debate

[@nimrodthewise836]

*rolls eyes and finds something else to listen to*

[@franklin4092]

the fact that they are capable of ascribing that high of a standard in nuance regarding the case-to posture as consistent or impartial-but not to the largest Black civil rights action in US history is completely emblematic of how much race frames this debate. even as they continue to whine about it not being the case. the dissonance.

[@masondickerson9466]

I didn't pick that up, but your totally right!

[@lordnatu]

no it's because one is a person and one is a group. You know, be nice to nice to individuals, be ruthless to a group.

[@xXixsfasx]

I’m becoming more and more radically left as time goes on, but I will fall upon my own sword before I become a joyless Karen like Viv

[@Superbajt]

The joke is, in Poland the parties that are the most anti-immigrant are the loudest (but not really the best) about problems of Polish immigrants in UK. Nationalism, man.

[@zachmccomas9021]

Dogs and humans evolved together. They share a bond that is super unique. Don’t eat or mistreat dogs. They are pure pure love

[@justcallmekai1554]

Still not much of an argument imo. Go down long enough we evolved alongside every creature on the planet since our inception. That boils down to "it's cause they are cute!". Some Indian places don't eat cows because of cultural and religious reasons yet we eat them every other day. It's quite arbitrary honestly. But I agree about the not mistreating dogs part though.

[@ihaveboogers6391]

How is Vivian not bullied off the internet at this point? She consistently makes false claims and is completely inconsistent. Has she contributed anything valuable to discourse, ever? It seems like the only thing she remains consistent on is having bad takes. Plus, she's malicious which is just gross. If you want to be correct about something, first listen to Vivian, then take the opposite position.

[@PrestoPuma]

I liked how vivian and vaush were on the same side for once. Seriously everyone kept jumping on her and some were being incredibly bad faith. I think she comes out looking not too bad in this Vid

[@joeyjose727]

No I’m so confused, I don’t even think anything she said in the beginning was crazy, I just disagreed and moved on... but the comments here really aren’t feeling her Which I get, I’m not a stan, but I don’t think THIS was the convo to hate her for. Especially during the rittenhouse stuff

[@ONLYFACT_X]

Hey, It's me! On a panel with Vaush uploaded to Vaush's KZbin channel. I made it, ma! :D

[@pyrel]

I thought you were cogent and made clear cuts through the fog of discussion throughout. Good stuff.

[@ONLYFACT_X]

@@pyrel oh wow, thanks, much appreciated

[@obamagaming5754]

Everyone shuts up and listens as soon as daddy vaush speaks

[@ClosedOpenness]

The police in the Kenosha riots were literally ordered to NOT defend the community. The Nat guard were LITERALLY told to not interfere. This caused the vigilantism. The is Wisconsin’s Governors fault.

[@DevinMacGregor]

What did the vigilantism accomplish? What exactly did they protect? They have no law enforcement authority. How did they stop a dumpster fire? You have to with the threat of force or force itself. This means you have to be walking around with a threatening posture. This is now a citizen being aggressive against another citizen and if the other person reacts and comes at them then what? They get to shoot and claim self defense? We have an under aged kid who wanted to play cop and emt to which he was neither and obviously immature for the situation. In the case of the latter to his action of not staying on the lot where the body was waiting for the police but running out into the street and then up and down it we have now to others who were trying to disarm someone they thought was a threat. One is dead and one is maimed for life. Except he is now made out to be a hero etc and this just means things will get worse in future events.

[@fatcat22able]

“Fucking”: exists Vivian: *a weapon to surpass metal gear*

[@seththeawesome3366]

Oh hey, it’s viv. I love when the Vaush writers bring back one off characters from the early seasons.

[@Andy_Lobo]

Also like the subtle lo-fi music in the background

[@LewdConnoisseur]

catJAM

[@nathanpapp432]

The funny thing is, if any of these people were making fun of a brown person based on their nationality they would be appalled, but since the UK is majority white its ok. And Viv only has a problem with it because its HER nationality, im sure she is perfectly fine with making fun of Americans.

[@codawithteeth]

as a bosnian making fun of the balkans is very funny for all the reasons vaush says

[@xanosghoul]

I am honestly disgusted that they let Vivian partake in this conversation after the hundreds of times they said the N word.

[@Azraelmaximilian]

Wait, what's wrong with Nardwuar?

[@Azraelmaximilian]

Sorry, I mean Naudwau

[@mrgaudy1954]

Really? If so it’s hilarious how the most wokescoldy people tend to be complete hypocrites

[@Azraelmaximilian]

@@mrgaudy1954 Naw, they're making a joke about how Vivian will randomly claim terrible shit about other people with no evidence or the flimsiest evidence possible

[@Azraelmaximilian]

Like that doxx list of fascists that included Destiny, Vaush, Eristocracy, and a bunch of other CC's who Vivian and her friends didn't like

[@snowythompson2349]

Vivian definitely needed help defending their points, but I don't know if Vaush was capable of doing anything because Vivian was making moral claims while the opposition was making legal claims and intentionally trying to attack Vivian on legal grounds, which Vivian refused to care about. Which makes me like about how Vaush deals with Religion.

[@tearupnationinc.7199]

Watch Out Vowsh Professor Flowers Lurking In The Background.

[@ashfox7498]

It's like a horror movie where the slasher is just standing in a dark corner while the main character is totally unaware

[@disasterpiece6480]

oh no Professor Flowers what a fucking nightmare

[@muridae05]

😰

[@Iloveguitar07]

Knock knock, Who's there, Professor flowers, colonizer 😱 😨

[@RaftelX]

It's not self defense to shoot someone 3 more times after they are already facedown on the ground after being shot twice, the reason rosenbaum chased him is because Kyle had pointed his gun at someone else. And the murderers after that were of the people actually acting in self defense those 2 were trying to stop what they perceived as an active shooter who lied about rosenbaum having a gun

[@finnameme8108]

You are being dishonest and you know it

[@Terker2]

God even when you agree with Vivian she is the least likeable/agreeable person i have seen on the left on live events. Even when she agrees with another person on the left she does it in the most backhanded way possible.

[@latenightdriver9680]

Okay, when I started this video, I read the comments, and thought y'all were being pretty harsh on Vivian. But i understand now.

[@TheSpeep]

5:16 Okay look, as someone whose country also still has a monarch, I agree with the "I dont want a queen" sentiment. However, you cannot just say "fuck the queen", thats not an acceptable behaviour. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU GET MORE QUEENS.

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

I'm pretty sure the words murder and murderer preceded the modern justice system. Murder isn't strictly law jargon and while law does use it and it has it's own definition within it, it is not the only definition. Law does not own the words murder or murderer.

[@welshbrxnches]

I really hate how ppl keep misrepresenting the word phobic.

[@Shad0wSquirrel]

Vivian the forever victim

[@RyhmeOfTheUnheard]

When you can’t tell who’s talking bc it’s a frog and a person without their picture up talkings but sounding nothing like their picture

[@auggy69]

why did they have to go on for so fucking long on the kyle rittenhouse stuff

[@EnderrBoi]

This is a certified vouch moment

[@Problematist]

Blockchain certified even.

[@TMmodify]

me seeing that Vivian is on the panel : *ah fuck here we fucking go again, fuck*

[@Aldron6]

As a Britbonger, I also feel the way the 'terf island' meme is used is harmful. I think Vaush got stuck feeling like he had to defend his usage, when she was more talking about the wider discourse, and Vaush should take that into consideration when he makes jokes. She was right on with how bad the media is over here, literally a week ago the BBC published an article from a terf, who then went on to make a public call for the genocide of trans women. No exaggeration. It's extremely frustrating to see these things just laughed off all the time.

[@RasmusVJS]

He knows, he has at least one video covering the article and the aftermath.

[@rumncoke76]

Prime really gotta stop putting 12 gorrilion people on the same panel together, becuase EVERY TIME it either devolves into "these two people are talking to each other and the rest are silent for three hours" or "12 people screaming at the same time and nothing actually being discussed". Even with 8 it's a bit of a stretch, but 12 never works IMO

[@catnium]

the funniest thing I ever saw was a black man saying that black people cant be racist

[@ukanlosgod7250]

This entire thing feels completely pointless. It's obvious that one side is attempting to make a moral argument, and the other is just trying to obfuscate that by making a Legal argument instead. If people could stop jumping at each other and actually let them clarify what their argument even IS, we could have actually heard some discourse.

[@ckorp666]

debatelord culture is so corrosive, but it tittilates the lizard brain. we love drama dont we folks . . .

[@chrisangel6833]

Ik the hasans birthday analogy was like very extreme and such but it does really feel analogous I mean think about it the passengers of those who tried subduing the terrorists had a high likely hood of dying anyways so would it really be that morally obligatory for the passengers to go out of their way to stop the terrorists relative to how Kyle's victims were trying to subdue him when he was jogging in an open street? I mean if you want be very cliche about it and just say that what Kyle's victims did were stupid because they had a high likelihood of getting murked by him what's the difference of also calling the passengers stupid for trying to stop the terrorists on the plane.

[@thiagoreis4532]

PLEASE! Stop inviting Vivian.

[@cosmictraveler1146]

Yes it’s getting to the point of clicking off if I see or hear her 🙄

[@sophin7766]

Please keep inviting Viv

[@breadofjustice3584]

"being mean to white people" is a panel mostly abt kyle rittenhouse omegalul

[@hieroglyphics1758]

I'm a leftist and this panel would have been far more interesting without Viv.

[@agav2345]

Every Panel with Vaush is boring watch Destiny atleast destiny speaks vaush just sits there smiling to himself

[@hieroglyphics1758]

@@agav2345 Vaush talked a decent amount this panel, probably the 2nd most. And why be in the comments of a channel advocating its viewers to watch someone else. Seems cringe to me

[@silentfriend369]

Hm. Vivian seems like she gets overly emotionally invested in these topics, to the point of illogic conclusions and, at times, extreme hyperbolic rhetoric. Sorry for my poor wording, but I hope my point comes across. To me, she is better off to focus these emotional attachments in the context of a private therapeutic professional. I mean, she's pouring out her emotional baggage and grief into a discussion where it's not constructive or appropriate. I get her totally. I'm way too emotionally swayed in such heavy topics too. But as someone with a platform, that sort of operation tends to sully waters vs clear them. It's not helpful overall to the goal of progressive discourse that propels our collective narratives into positive and helpful outcomes. It's just drama.

[@brianna5183]

If people are gonna complain about the yulin festival they gotta be vegan lol

[@uninstaller2860]

Me: Why is Vivian- Vivian: finishing each other's sentences! Me: ...

[@morgezorge6387]

What is the harm in having a different view on gender? I'm not basing my view on gender on the subjective feelings of humans but on the observable biological facts. A woman is not someone that feels like a woman, but that has female biology and the same with man? Why is that transphobic or hateful towards people suffering a mental condition. That's like saying that thinking the world is a not so bad place is hateful towards depressed people. Vivian is such a disgusting person, the way she strawmens and dehumanizes her perceived opposition as genocidal and therefore worthy of preemptive violence on her sides part, is disgusting.

[@Problematist]

I was enjoying the conversation so much before the Kyle Rittenhouse segment came out of nowhere. It has gotten so tyring after only 3 videos to me.

[@mrgaudy1954]

Honestly the weight everybody is giving the case is ridiculous. Whether he gets convicted or not isn’t going to really change anything.

[@Soren59]

@@mrgaudy1954 It's not really about Kyle Rittenhouse himself. It's because there's so much footage and it's also a politically charged topic, it's a pretty ideal case to discuss to see where people really stand on the issue of self-defense and whether their political biases affect their judgement of what counts as self-defense.

[@lzmunch]

The Kyle rittenhouse stunlock was ridiculous

[@podpoe]

i really dont understand why anyone would want to be on panels this large wtf

[@DevinMacGregor]

The moral argument is you cannot claim self defense if you knowingly put yourself into a dangerous situation. Arming yourself as such is admitting you are knowingly putting yourself into harms way. People keep saying the three who tried to disarm him post Rosenbaum cannot claim self defense not simply because to do so one has to be an aggressor but they were knowingly putting themselves into harms way. People keep saying well he was running away from harm not into harm therefore he was acting in self defense while ignoring the fact he interjected himself into an ongoing riot knowing he could get hurt, otherwise why carry a weapon?. Walking down the street eating a tuna fish sandwich and a mugger jumps out from behind a crate and says give me your money motherfucker is you not knowingly putting yourself into harms way. If you are sitting watching TV and someone busts into your house you are not knowingly putting yourself into harms way. If you are doing the same but make meth in the back room then no, you are knowingly putting your property and occupants into harms way by the illegal activity you are doing and thus cannot claim self defense. I would also extend this to YOUR legal business. If you hired armed security then a contract needs to be furnished showing they have actual authorization to be there and act in your stead. No contract then no right whatsoever. If you have multiple locations then this only counts for the actual property not the public spaces in-between. If you decide to LARP or No LARP into a known war zone the US govt is not going to come bail your ass out because you knowingly put yourself into that situation.

[@underwherewhore]

Gotta say, I'm warming up to Viv a bit. Nice to see her tag teaming with Vaush

[@agav2345]

Vivian is psychotic calling for a kid to get murdered because he opened Carried a gun at a protest

[@underwherewhore]

@@agav2345 her point was that who is the aggressor has much to do with who is at fault during a self defense encounter. He was nowhere near the business he said he was there to protect when the shooting started, and testified that he had no further reason to be in Kenosha that night. The simple act of not leaving the area while brandishing a firearm comes off as pretty aggressive. After he shot the first person, absent of context and unwilling to take a less defensive stance, he would appear to the crowd as an active shooter. Vivian's prescriptive statement was basically: in a perfect world, the good guy with the gun (Grosskreutz) would have shot and killed the (perceived) bad guy with the gun (Rittenhouse). I only say perceived, because legally speaking, everyone in the encounter was justified, except maybe Rosenbaum.

[@deanadewall8400]

Rittenhouse did not have a freaking panic attack, and anyone saying that is an idiot. I've been on disability for 20 yrs for panic and anxiety disorder, etc., and that was some really bad acting and that's it.

[@buriednameless965]

So you know exactly what every person having a panic attack will look like?

[@mrgaudy1954]

@@buriednameless965 Generally speaking people having a panic attack won’t intermittently cast side-eye at the jury while having said panic attack. He looked like a football player who rolls about on the ground in “agony” while sneaking peeks at the referee to see if it’s working

[@buriednameless965]

@@mrgaudy1954 generally speaking very few people will be in front of a jury testifying in a highly publicized case broadcast on national television, much less have a panic attack in front of one. I don't think glancing at others in the room is justification for saying he's faking it. I think he was a dumbass for going out and protecting property he didn't even own and getting himself into a lethal situation but as beta emotional soy lefties can we please not pretend like every panic attack looks the same or that trauma isn't something that can manifest in a ton of weird ways like resurfacing months later?

[@descendantofartorias2067]

So every single persons panic attack looks the exact same and you're a mind reader go it.

[@fernfaba]

Vivian is so annoying

[@Dustande1]

It's a bad faith question if the Kenosha killer had a right to defend himself. He wasn't defending himself, and I agree with vaush that militia larping isn't effective to protect communities. He didn't even protect what he allegedly claims to have been there to protect. The protesters had an equal right to defend themselves. Neither party was responsible to the "property protected" but he left with a body count. Property wasn't protected, but people were killed. Either he was responsible for those deaths or he should have been cut down by armed rioters who were protecting themselves.

[@amyglynn6827]

yeah like were the protesters supposed to wait until the crazy kid with a gun starting shooting them? this is the issue with open carrying firearms.

[@disappointedoptimist255]

@@amyglynn6827 Should everyone who sees anyone open carrying immediately attack them?

[@mrgaudy1954]

The Vivian person sounds like they’ve spent years trying to develop the most insufferable sounding voice imaginable.

[@casperchristiansen2458]

Wide Peepo got DESTROYED in this debate.

[@casperchristiansen2458]

@CrawlingChaoS I łű:v Wide Peepo.

[@ziontea7045]

that makes wide peepo sad 😢

[@silentfriend369]

As a thin peepo, I agree.

[@ms6534]

Viv is unbased and tankie pilled Keep on fighting fascism with equal and opposite fascism

[@AnEntropyFan]

I'm mildly curious. When does actual justified self-defense stop being "fascism" to you? Let's take an unrelated example. We have these people who are roughly 52% of society called women. However, they do not have meaningful access to any lever of power - military, economic, political or social. In the US that has lead to disparities as severe that the state already owns their wombs in great portion of its mainland territory and has the right to torture them for 9-10months at a time; the consequences of the torture always being permanent mutilation and psychological damage and sometimes crippling debilitation or death. When does it stop being "fascism" for these women and everyone who considers them humans deserving of equal rights to start responding to violence with violence in an act of justified self-defense? You have a very big pale dudebro brain I am sure, so am sure you'll be able to mount an interesting answer. Also, pretty sure that tankies agree with you - everyone who isn't a "white" male is entirely disposable and caring about fundamental human rights is "liberal idpol".

[@ms6534]

@@AnEntropyFan I guess I'll draw the line where civil rights exist. For your example, if someone who is a Christian said to a woman, "I believe that life begins at conception." A moral response would not be to cut that person's tongue out. It would be to organize people to vote for your position. Using physical force to enact political change falls into two categories, colonialism and terrorism. That's it. Great to see you use pale and duderino as an insult. It's so nice that you think it's just perfectly fine to use immutable characteristics to attempt to insult someone. "owns their wombs in great portion of it's mainland territory" just say many states. The f@ck does every lefty seem to be incapable of simple communication. Biger words smarter person? Viv made the prescription that armed organized protestors should run right wing militias out of town. If protests were organized, there wouldn't be buildings burning. There wouldn't be a right wing militia there to protect businesses. But if they did come there anyways, their simple presence isn't a f@cking agression. They could be dressed as Nazis, goose stepping from business to business. It doesn't matter. You don't get to use violence to enact political change That's terrorism.

[@user-lr8xz5hb5k]

@@ms6534 ok lib. Are the people in Rojava terrorists?

[@ms6534]

@@user-lr8xz5hb5k do they have an electoral system to enact changes in policy? Do they have civil rights codified in a constitution, and is part of their social contract respecting those rights? Are you really comparing black lives matter vs blue lives matter to a war in the middle east? Also, I'm not a lib. I'm a market socialist. And I do more to further the causes of freedom and fairness than any tankie moron who wears the label for fashion purposes.

[@themightymcb7310]

God I cannot listen to Vivian. I've tried like twice now but all she does is say "fuck" way more than any other person alive today and get offended at like really inconsequential and innocuous shit. She's basically the caricature of the left that the right creates, but unironically.

[@JulianIsAnthony]

Just looking at this thumbnail, I know it’s gunna be a lot of crying on this panel lmao

[@EquestriaExploration]

Hmm... I could be wrong, but I think this conversation may have gotten a tiny bit off track

[@Rainebowes]

Damn i feel bad for vivian sometimes.

[@MrRazmut]

Why?

[@vinderpsen7393]

I do to, must be so hard going through life being so brain dead.

[@Rainebowes]

@@MrRazmut cuz she gets piled on every panel shes a part of. I get that she says things in an inflammatory way a lot but they dont have to take the most bad faith interpretation of what she says.

[@Soren59]

​@@Rainebowes I kinda get where you're coming from, but at the same time it's on her to present her arguments in a way that people can get on board with. I honestly find it hard to watch panels with her in it because even when she makes points I can get behind, she often presents them in such an unpalatable way that I almost reflexively want to take the other side.

[@Rainebowes]

@@Soren59 i agree to an extent. I honestly kinda like that she puts things in a purposefully inflammatory way sometimes but it doesnt really help in a debate or panel like this.

[@grimtheghastly8878]

God I wish Vivian would stop larping

[@masondickerson9466]

1:14:17

[@DevinMacGregor]

Working there as in the city and his Dad living in the city does not make the area HIS community.

[@finnameme8108]

Who are you to say what his community is and isn’t? If he genuinely feels it is than it is, simple as that

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@finnameme8108 I am a sensible person. A community is not something arbitrary you just make up on the fly. If you drive 60 miles to work and pass through 12 cities to get to work all of that does not become your community. You are not a part of my community and have no fucking business on my block hence I can question why in the fuck you are here. The Police would arrive and agree with me. They would question you and ask for ID. If you did not live there or were not visiting anyone you would be told to get the fuck out of that community. Buying a fucking donut from Dunkins does not make the entire area your community. By such loose standards as you want to imply it means the entire US is our community right? Well why not this hemisphere? Oh snap, the entire planet is my community. I have no relations with the vast majority but what the fuck, right? Before this shooting 99% or more of Kenosha had never heard of Kyle and had no dealings with them.