Talking with Counterpoints About Our HEATED Debate

The aforementioned debate:
• Conservatives RAGE OUT...
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#Vaush #Debate

[@n9sse29]

great convo, i like connors intellectual honesty and i really feel like hes willing to fully admit whenever he was wrong or to agree to disagree. it really helps the discourse

[@snapgab]

He is NOT intellectually honest, maybe compared to other conservatives he is, but overall he absolutely is not.

[@fungibu7184]

Well, a key detail from the trial is that Rittenhouse chose to go over a cleared police barricade and place himself into that situation. He wasn't swarmed by protesters. He left the police safe zone.

[@j.malo-roper4050]

Yeah, Rittenhouse wanted to either get a legal kill or become a martyr. He did everything he fucking could to put his own life in danger and ending up taking two others' instead.

[@leonodonoghueburke4276]

@@j.malo-roper4050 nice meme

[@j.malo-roper4050]

@@kg356 "Your honour, I know I shouldn't have jumped in front of the runaway train, but in fairness, it wasn't supposed to be careening down the tracks either"

[@MindForgedManacle]

@@j.malo-roper4050 Got me laughing with that one 😂 "I shouldn't have punched that kid, but why was he standing where my fist was gonna go?"

[@Greyz174]

@@j.malo-roper4050 "your honor i don't know the difference in ascribing agency to people versus of inanimate objects"

[@alexramey2062]

I'm not gonna lie, I was getting really frustrated with Counter during that panel. It felt super disappointing to feel like the only online conservative that I actually respected was acting like such a tool. Needless to say I'm glad that my disappointment is no longer warranted. To see that even after that shit show Conner was able to collect himself and come back on with a more measured follow up to his points honestly makes me respect him even more than I already did. He may not be a comrade but he's still a Chad as far as I'm concerned.

[@hpw101]

I disagree with Conner all the time, but he’s literally always in good faith. It’s refreshing.

[@greatcesari]

If Connor’s views were mainstream Republican, then I’d actually consider the GOP a legitimate political party.

[@seileen1234]

@@greatcesari Y E S

[@libidinistlyn]

@@greatcesari same like id still oppose them on alot but i wouldnt oppose them like i do the near fascistic current conservative party where opposing them is a literal matter of my safety instead of just the result of having different political goals

[@KayosWONER]

how can you respect conservatives... yo its okay that you wanna be racist, hate poor people, and want to destroy the world bro we just have different views

[@anarchohelenism]

Connor is a good guy. I disagree with him politically, but he's not far gone. Also we tweet 40K memes back and forth to each other, which is pretty pog.

[@viscounttudon68]

what army does he play though

[@viscounttudon68]

@Jonontoast There’s 2 types of warhammer fans, the people that enjoy it because everything is horrible, and the people that enjoy it because they think the imperium is based. I don’t think connor thinks that the imperium is good, even though I probably disagree with him on basically everything

[@viscounttudon68]

@Jonontoast Almost like that was an exaggeration of reality for the sake of a joke

[@viscounttudon68]

@Jonontoast Please enlighten me then lmao

[@aweshumandy]

I mean I wish everyone on the right side of the spectrum was like him, so you're not wrong. if we lived in a world where the furthest right we had were Yang gang, neolib, and counterpoint types. I'd fucking take it in a heartbeat.

[@Alex.R.L]

"I'm a ****ing liberal." I knew we'd get there eventually. It's not yet all the way there, but baby steps. I have no problem with a "Measure Twice cut Once" mentality. That's the best kind of conservative. My kind of conservative. But... though not every change is an improvement, every improvement is a change. Progress needs to happen; MAGA thinking holds us back in the worst way.

[@FelisImpurrator]

The only acceptable form of conservatism as far as I'm concerned. Stuff like being socially/culturally conservative, making it an identity... Not so much.

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

Through the ideals of progress if a change isn't progress it will be changed again for progress. It's what many don't understand.

[@l_ndonmusic]

@@kg356 Vaush is literally a socialist

[@akkere4052]

My main concern with "Measure Twice cut once" conservatives is they're usually "Measure Twice cut never". I think it's too early to tell, but if Vaush ends up having more conversations like these -- completely calm, transparent and provocative, we'll be able to decide more objectively on the matter. In any case, I'm glad this conversation happened. I was one of the chatters that had *severe* doubts about this going anywhere productive, but this is definitely my favorite instance of being wrong.

[@Bryndleson]

@@kg356 liberalism is when you advocate for a socialist revolution /s

[@tiberseptim8434]

Counterpoints seems like the only Conservative worth talking to.

[@lostintranslation220]

He's a centrist... But I agree he's a little more right than he'd admit

[@Kloutkulture]

@@lostintranslation220 Yea he’s basically a conservative who’s centrist on a few positions lol.

[@JackgarPrime]

I think he's generally pretty moderate, so its at least possible to have a conversation with him.

[@TheRealGarg]

One of the few who I think is truly good faith

[@akag0307]

He has the Stereotypical Centrist dialogue tree style of talking. His presence and absence in a conversation is more or less the same.

[@kropotkinnie]

connor is the only true centrist i swear. it's crazy how center he really seems to be when that seems like a myth of a position. here's to hopin we can drag him over a bit kinda want a full counterpoints/vaush friendship arc

[@christian-mosesholtz5458]

forget it. check how he was talking about this in the mask off podcast before actually talking to vaush. i dig him in debates, but unfortunately he is not as rational or centrist as he tries to propagate. checked a couple of the videos on his channel and lost sympathy pretty quickly.

[@xenos_n.]

@@christian-mosesholtz5458 why, what did he say to wind you up?

[@christian-mosesholtz5458]

@@xenos_n. oh he did not wind me up, i still dig him in debates, he is just as dishonest as the rest of the right wing grifters. where he choses that optics matter like in this video here and in debates he manages to keep it together and manages to come off as quite charming and more rational than the rest of his bunch. when you check the stuff on his channel though, you see that thats all just facade. filled to the brim with the genre typical "ooooh, the stupid left, all mushy and always offended", while pandering to a right wing to altright crowd, followed up the the also usual "ooooh, why cant we just all get along" schtick. he is either not as smart as he seems at first glance or he is that smart but quite dishonest.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

He has stated his belief is that right wingers should exist to hold back progressives and progress. And that he firmly lies with that philosophy. How can he be considered a centrist?

[@christian-mosesholtz5458]

@@haruhirogrimgar6047 he is also working with lauren southern and openly defends ben shapiro. centrist? xD

[@TheMtl5059]

Let me draw an analogy: you should be allowed to run fighting clubs as a sport. MMA or boxing orgs are very careful with trained refs and medics on site. But if I run a fight club in my backyard, with none of that expertise and people get hurt, that is very irresponsible, and probably criminal. Maybe it should be ok for citizen groups to defend against rioters. But when a 17 year old with no training in crowd management, descalation, etc shows up, that's irresponsible, and probably criminal. Separate note: there's hypocrisy from the right about him showing to help the protests with medic - when it comes to his motive for being there - but then viewing them as a dangerous antagonistic mob when it comes to his motivations for self defense.

[@Indoor_Carrot]

Anything to suit their narrative. They MUST make Kyle look good in every situation no matter what.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Dude if rittenhosue was a black kid who shot some white militia guys who were parading down his street flashing guns and burning crosses they would have lynched him or shot him dead and used the “he needed to be put down cause he was a mad dog” excuse they always use when they kill any black person who has guts to fight back against them this is such a joke that it’s laughable that people actually think there is any nuance to this the fucking little shit bragged days before about wanting to get his guns and shoot these people, the same way chris Kyle, republican loved douchebag and war murderer bragged and thought it was cool to make shit up about assassinating black looters like judge fucking dread during Katrina cause again conservatives love the collective fantasy of killing people (especially people, gorups and etc. they don''t like) and getting away with it and of course at that point chris wasn’t in the military anymore so he could no longer murder brown people with impunity so he had to try and fulfill his fantasy some other way. that’s why people like George zimmerman and Rittenhosue are and will be revered as celebrity gods among the right wing they killed “liberals", minorities and or “bad hombres”, got or will get away with it legally, which is the right wing spunk dream. that’s why it’s red states pushing laws to make it more legal for their citizens to run down and or murder BLM and liberal protesters and activists.

[@TheMtl5059]

@@mckenzie.latham91 i usually don't get invested in these kinds of cases, but the conservative reaction has been terrifying and disgusting. When I argue, they seem to know all the subtleties of every self defense and gun law just so they can see how far they can go and get away with violence.

[@TheMtl5059]

@@kg356 kinda my point actually. Conservatives don't care that this was bad behavior, only that they can justify a killing by someone on their team.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Anyone defending him are defending the idea of gun-toting IRL vigilantes. It is ridiculous and disgusting.

[@spartanite67]

Good to see these two bury the hatchet. I don’t need them to agree but I’m glad they took the time to listen to each other

[@markmikolay9019]

I really like Connor, he has demonstrated quite the capacity for introspection and I really respect that. It's so heartening to see you guys talk out the beef.

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

I still dislike him because every time I see him he acts like a douche. Don't know why people care about what he has to say.

[@yan_dj]

@@Fragenzeichenplatte The comment you're replying to explains how someone would care what he says

[@TrueGamer22887]

@@Fragenzeichenplatte I follow him a lot because he’s the only right winger who seems somewhat reasonable in this space and he’s literally never a douche wtf are you talking about, he yells on panels sometimes but no more than any leftie debate lord, far less honestly

[@TayTayMakesBeats]

I'm mixed on him, mostly positive. Sometimes I see him on panels or situations like this and he strikes me as a really down to earth guy with some really reasonable takes, sometimes he'll come out of left field with some wild shit. My main issue with Connor is how fkn often he points out that he's a centrist. Especially on panels I can't stand when people won't shut up about their political label. Centrists, communists (especially MLs) and ancaps are the unholy trinity of "umm speaking as this panel's resident _________" and "let me address this from a _______ perspective." STOP, NOBODY CARES. We need to do something about these "people," I'm willing to compromise my morals for the health of online debate in this case. That being said I think Connor is actually a good faith actor and one of few actual centrists in the debate sphere. I would come to the exact same conclusion even if he didn't remind me every 5 minutes.

[@TrentonF505]

I think he might be the most level headed right leaning person. While I disagree with him on most things I do appreciate hearing his perspective.

[@lava172]

I love these types of conversations, I hope we can get more stuff like this in the future

[@seileen1234]

Glad to hear it. I like Counterpoints because even if i disagree with him a lot of times i think he's good faith. From what i've seen he's genuine and i respect that A LOT because you can reason with him instead of wasting time with some *insert ableist term* conservative like CTV

[@robynsummer7068]

Glad they were able to talk things out. I respect Counterpoints a lot, despite disagreeing with him on tons of things.

[@hpw101]

He’s steadfastly good faith.

[@magicwizardfrog2497]

Yeah, currently I believe he’s one of the few tolerable conservatives. Not that I agree with him, but I can feel that he both isn’t indifferent towards peoples well being and he seems to act in good faith

[@swansonjoe7121]

I don't respect him, but I agree on tons of things

[@shaheenshad5012]

@@swansonjoe7121 I was waiting see this comment.

[@swansonjoe7121]

@@shaheenshad5012 lmao

[@SarahRoseCO10]

One on one convos always seem so much more nuanced and useful, I'm glad they're talking.

[@june-juniper-]

Finally a video dropped before I got to it in the VOD

[@Flugmorph]

addict

[@june-juniper-]

@@Flugmorph based

[@june-juniper-]

@@beowyfe me too comrade I try to catch them but college is wack

[@olivierpeartnoy]

Yeah I often see people roasting this guy whenever I see these panels. He's about as charitable and likeable as a centrist/right leaning person can get imo. He's a bit intense and loud but hey it's not like Vaush is quiet and polite all the time either you know?

[@Olivetree80]

Right, he makes good points.

[@burkles4456]

He seems like he actually listens to people and not the eternal monologue most political streamers have going on in their head.

[@glitchboard9452]

I love the fact that when stuff gets heated, before he starts going over the deep end, just diverts into "You are cute as fuck and I love you so much you...you...youuuuuuuuuu...."

[@olivierpeartnoy]

@@glitchboard9452 Yeah hahahaha

[@xenos_n.]

He's definitely my favorite person that considers themselves right wing. He's just level headed.

[@pitpride1220]

I'm glad they worked this out. This was a great conversation.

[@samuelbarber5097]

Out of all the convo’s and debates you’ve had with counterpoints, that has to be one of the most incredible.

[@yan_dj]

Didn't think this conversation would be this nice but here we are

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

I’ve driven around with everything from EMT, Police, doctors, politicians etc. the point about a social worker and a cop in the same patrol car is such a good idea and that cooperation is gold.

[@tyronefu4273]

This reminds me of pre 2015 2016 when I could have a conversation with my conservative friends without it resorting to adrenalchrine and Jewish space lasers. Vaush I'd love to see more debates and discussions between you two. Good work sir

[@Sound_Judgement]

This is why I like Counterpoints, despite the fact I disagree on almost all his politics. This is also why I appreciate Vaush, even though I don’t agree with him on everything either.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

Ah I see a "both sides" guy pffft probably a contrarian like Dest-. Haha I'm joking just didn't want you getting away with a civil statement online. 😂

[@incoglido]

Its tragic that this level of discourse will never see the light of mainstream media.

[@katiemarsh4970]

Look…I understand that this is a serious and important conversation…but goodness gracious can Vaush be better about picking up his loot? 🤣

[@herefortheshrimp1469]

I take so much time thinking about my inventory in this stupid game and him leaving it was bothering me so much lol

[@rhoell2050]

He doesn't need all the trash stuff, he is mostly only going for the best possible stuff

[@JackgarPrime]

Most of the stuff popping out of those cows is garbage.

[@kogasoldier9379]

Please don't tell me you're one of those "pick up everything. Sort it out later." Type of RPG players. If so you're wasting so much time. Vaush is actually being efficient..

[@beo3828]

Also consider that usually at this point he has so much gold that even the "pick it all and sell it" mentality is innefective.

[@JackgarPrime]

Vaush slaughtered cows in this debate.

[@clarkmannen8789]

There’s no way. Not my favourite vegan streamer!

[@therobotchickenMLP]

Hmph. Vaush claims that the meat indistry is unethical and yet he slaughters cows publicly. Curious.

[@kogasoldier9379]

There is no freaking cow level!

[@shredjward]

@@therobotchickenMLP >you wake up on the island >vegan veesh has already slaughtered all the cows

[@joshuasalem5022]

I disagree with Counter on almost everything, but I respect him because he’s almost always acting in good faith and doesn’t try to get cheap shots in order to win debates He also isn’t a very hyperbolic ideologue

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

No cheap shots? His contributions to the panels I've seen him on are full of passive-aggressive snipes. And always some version of how centrists and in the middle he is. Edit: He hates hyperbole? Is that why he keeps making hyberbolic claims about the left?

[@grayson0916]

Dude hates hyperbole lol

[@rohiogerv22]

One thing to Vaush's credit that I don't think gets brought up is part of the reason we speculate about what someone *should* have done in a best-case scenario is that that itself is a mental preparation to respond appropriately in a similar situation. If you've made the case dozens of times about what the right thing is to do in a hostile situation, you'll be more able to see yourself actually doing it if it happens. It will practically be like you've already done it before. Or as many a good instructor has said, "perfect practice makes perfect". Spend most of your life practicing well so that you know what to do for the important moments. Some LARPers take this too far obviously, but if you wait for a crisis to crystallize your values it will be too late.

[@Qjciak]

im really happy Counterpoints came to talk this through

[@ellis_cake]

Thank you - both - for this real and good conversation!

[@jippyjip8366]

gotta say ive been wanting vaush to talk to counterpoints since vaush got back on twitch. not because i agree with counterpoints a lot or anything, but ive just been wanting to see this for a while and im glad its come to fruition

[@Mike-zx6sl]

For someone who self-identifies as "center-right", Connor DOES seem to come off pretty reasonable and even empathetic a lot of the time. I don't watch a lot of his content outside Dylan's show, but I can at least like, hear him out.

[@Ghee_Buttersnaps]

Counterpoints the only right leaning person in Twitch space that I think is consistently good faith and truly wants to make the world a better place

[@MindForgedManacle]

Agreed, it actually warms the heart a little

[@seeman24]

I'm glad this convo happened I have tons of respect for Connor and he's definitely a good faith actor. I would even say he's an honorary leftist

[@melaniey.5596]

I wouldn’t go as far as call him a leftist, but I do respect him a lot for being amendable to having an open dialogue with leftist, maybe even work for common goals. Specially for allowing us to understand the most reasonable positions of the right, because he actually applies... well... reason to them. Even if I don’t agree with that reasoning I can’t sort of understand where he comes from.

[@DeepShadedGlassesGuy]

The progression of this convo was great👏🏾

[@PhilWalton]

This warmed the cockles of my heart. Very wholesome.

[@warhammerscience4997]

I could argue bin laden acted in self defense when special forces kicked in his door. Any person would act as bin laden did, and defend themselves. Bin laden was justified in defending himself, any person should understand that god given instinct to act. But we all agree that literally does not matter, if bin laden was justified in defending himself. That is miles away from being relevant to why that situation happened or was justified or not in happening. Almost like human motivations are more complex then could be gleamed from literally only moments of the case overall. Hyper focusing on just the point of self defense is a wildly myopic view of where justice needs to be served in this situation.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Yeah, if i set a house on fire and the people inside try to stop me, i am not justified in killing them out of self defense since my actions were malicious and aggressive first. it’s a ridiculous concept and Vaush should have shut that shit down.

[@warhammerscience4997]

@@mckenzie.latham91 exactly, there is never a reason to move off this point.

[@marketingdisaster]

BRAVO!! This was beautiful. Love ya Vaush

[@MerrickDeville]

Very glad to see this resolved between Voosh and the only good conservative

[@cookies23z]

unironically very good talk, was surprising and nice to have it not be a full shouting match, good stuff overall, even disagreements on some points aside (particularly the proud boys defense...)

[@bennewman566]

A stream of these two playing Warhammer is the content we all really want

[@alesalazar1175]

Wow that was surprisingly pleasant. I had a pretty negative opinion on Counter, I had only ever seen him in big panel debates. This completely shifted my perspective of him. Though I still may disagree with many of his takes it's refreshing to see a charitable conversation with a centrist

[@tylerhackner9731]

Good convo

[@dadurker4569]

What a great conversation

[@WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot_YT]

very comfy convo

[@jamesrandall9489]

Hey vaush I’m really glad you had this conversation with counterpoints. It was super productive and counterpoints is like one of the few conservatives I respect so I’m really glad you don’t have beef with him

[@goodvibestv5380]

My guy is much calmer in a 1 on 1 debate setting

[@ashton7742]

I had just watched the video about the nazbol debate you had the same day as the Rem debate

[@KHR0M3K0R4N]

No one has ever seen Dan Harmon and Connor in the same place at once.

[@JeremiahShaferSimulacra]

This is pretty much how I wish more terminally-online leftist would handle their disagreements. I thought Connor was a raving lunatic in debate, but he's an actual person in this video. And, holy shit, offering to address beef via DM's instead of using it for content? Based.

[@thechief043]

I may not agree with Conor on a lot, but man, I do respect that he can hold a really honest conversation. He argues from a honest point of view, and legit wants good things for people. He can come off as unhinged in some of these debates, but I feel like that's the downside to being a (good faith) centrist. You're gonna get pissed at/piss off everyone. And he really did see the issue with the other conservatives on that panel. But to his greater point, Defund the Police/Police reform could've gained a shitload of momentum and support; but all of that was squandered, without a doubt. Reform, if it ever actually can happen, is going to take a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of patience. We need everyone from top to bottom, willing and ready to put in the work.

[@IssaUserName]

I love counter but had zero clue what was going on during that debate- He brings points I dont fully agree with, but at least have a perspective to them aside team politics.

[@Favar1]

Interesting that in a one on one environment they both found a lot more common ground than on the Hippy Dippy panel.

[@guythatsepic]

Interesting but not too surprising. Debate panels like that just show everyone at their worst and almost never lead to anyone learning anything from them. The only exception I can think of is something like that LGBT panel vaush was on a few weeks ago where they could actually discuss the topic without being at each other's throats the whole time

[@ax7160]

Refreshing and not brain-rot inducing debate !!

[@DoctorJellicle]

Really cool conversation. Especially the bit about using conservative arguments to promote progressive change (although ngl, I kind of wanted more blood sports lol)

[@chaserseven2886]

The clash between mash and air

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

Yeah no. You can't go shoot the people lighting your favorite store on fire. You can try to stop it for sure, but if you know these people are in the state of mind to burn a building that isn't even yours and you show up with a gun and end up shooting one you murdered them. If you think you can stop them without killing them or the need for deadly force be my guest but if you bring that gun, a gun you dont carry around everywhere already, then you knew what you were getting into and that's why you brought it and you had no need to do it in the first place. So yeah if your definition of stopping the grocery store from being burned to the ground is killing the protestors you are the one at fault.

[@entertain7us148]

Man, what a genuinely nice guyx

[@w0ody16]

I saw the panel and that outburst looked wild to me. I really respect this conversation though 👍 What keyboard story are they talking about at 1:04:00 ?

[@ricardomejia15]

this should be on main channel

[@dreamerfrostbite2066]

This convo brought back my faith in Connor, seriously this was genuinely great to listen to.

[@SuperSuperspoof]

PLEASE do this more often! 2 person convos (if both people are honest) achieve so much more clarity than 8 person panels.

[@mikaperzyna8230]

I'm glad this convo happened because that debate panel made me lose a lot of the respect I had for Counter. It's nice to see him own up to some mistakes. Here's hoping this is what the future of the elephant party looks like and not MTG and Hake.

[@JoeMama-tw6gu]

i agree this was a good discussion but some of these comments r praising counterpoints a bit much… am i the only one who remembers how bad faith he used to be on debate panels a few months back??

[@ianrouillard3581]

I can't seem to ever find myself not liking Connor. He has some incredibly bad takes, but he's an honest person and I usually enjoy to hear his takes on things.

[@TerminallyOnlineLeftist]

Counterpoints, the twitter follow you gain when you take your first step into the twitter political sphere

[@soccerruben1]

24:52 allysonwonderland, a chatter made a claim that superhero movies has "ruined society," and I must say, what movies in particular that made it possible? Does it came from the MCU movies and tv shows, or the DC movies and tv shows? I know superhero movies aren't for everyone (I know Vaush doesn't like MCU movies), but to say it has "ruined society" is a bit much. Does allysonwonderland has any movies in mind to make that claim more substantive?

[@auto117666]

This convo made me want to play Diablo

[@tiena6630]

Counterpoints is my favorite conservative/centrist. I was disappointed that he was suddenly so aggressive during the panel. It's a good thing they talked it out. Vaush needs to talk to more reasonable right-wingers. Counterpoints is good at calling people out on their shit.

[@muhammadwaqas6102]

What game is this I am sorry if this is a weird question to ask.

[@Bananesko]

What is counterpoints wearing across his shirt?

[@shay2525]

What a fucking bloodbath

[@Srfingfreak]

Lol, two guys playing video games talking to each other. This is hilariously similar to when I was 11 and I'd just sit with my friends playing legos and BSing with my bros.

[@frostbite3318]

Discussing socialism at 11 is impressive

[@terminallyonlinezillennial]

I wonder if PF would be willing to talk things out like this

[@timjohnson9581]

Connor pissed me off during the panel, but I'm glad he was able to come on and discuss what was up. Good convo.

[@Samuel-wm6wv]

Can someone link the discussion with rem they are referring to

[@beastemeauxde7029]

An untrained, unlicensed,uninsured 17 yr old not only has no business policing the situation but the police are at fault for allowing him to do their tax dollar funded job.

[@Tacklepig]

I feel like one of the things to take from this conversation is that the "Utilitarian Calculus" doesn't fucking work unless you apply it in hindsight AND with full information about an individual issue. You can't fucking make utilitarian judgments of how to act in a situation, you'll come off as a sociopath. No matter how utilitarian you are, you NEED some principles and moral rules to stand by.

[@Wallnuts]

25:40 “ideologically erogenous” lmao

[@nightbringar7558]

While this didn't make me a centrist in the slightest because I agree with you positions far more, I do think I'm gonna have to sub to connor because he did have some fantastic method/arguments for bringing fiscal and social conservatives to arrive at healthy and productive solutions. That is refreshing to see from someone far more on the right end of the spectrum.

[@xSixthiSx]

Gotta wear cannot be frozen someplace, very useful affix for ias characters

[@joshuacole4066]

Almost every time I hear Connor talk I am reminded why, despite the fact I disagree with his views, I ultimately respect him - a good faith and earnest political commentator. Great chat.

[@williamfarley3794]

Wow this was surprisingly adult communication for a bunch of KZbinrs

[@markiej211]

The end of the conversation was so flirty to me haha. I ship it Coshner !

[@ItemNumber535]

Wow that was an a very good faith talk between these two. Very happy to see this after the shit show that was that last hippy dippy debate. Im far left, but have conservative and scientist friends, and we are able to agree on a lot of fundematals when people are open to a good faith conversation like this.

[@beo3828]

These folk are really completely different human beings when you pick them from the horde.

[@Vashy434]

Honestly I thought his behaviour on that debate was super weird and out of character. I have always seem him as a conservative who actually comes off good faith and has peoples best interest at heart I may think hes misguided in his beliefs but he is one guy I always felt truly believed in what he said. It's good to have this talk and hav each other clarify and clear things up.

[@DopeAtoms]

can anyone fill me in as to what that thing around Connor's shoulder is?? Super confused haha

[@problemsolver3254]

how did i not notes that

[@imadedisaccount2commentido693]

Back stretch tool for muscles

[@DopeAtoms]

@@imadedisaccount2commentido693 nice one mate.. I assumed as much but couldn't for the life of me think of how it worked haha

[@edwardstorey2278]

Wow Counterpoints looks tired

[@melaniey.5596]

Wait, I don’t understand what Contrapoints is trying to say around 18:00. So if your business is being burn down by protesters, you have a right to not be angry that those protesters where killed? Or that if your business was burn down, then other crimes done during that time are also acceptable? Mind you he also recognize that even if the owner receives recompensation for the loss, the prosecution of other crimes is still not acceptable then? I still don’t like how that implies that property is more important than human life...

[@evangorgen1562]

Not arguing for myself but trying to shed clarity on what I interpreted as Counter's point here: Contra seems to be expressing a frustration with the mindset of "just use your insurance" as a way to dismiss any reason that someone would want to protect their business. Vaush even agrees with Counter in his next statement that in most cases insurance will not be enough to cover the damages if a business gets burned down or otherwise severely damaged. If you couple that reality with the idea that most small business owners can't brunt the remainder of that cost or live without business for the time that it takes to repair the damages, then we must understand that there is more than just a profit motive when someone decides to defend a business. "So if your business is being burned down by protesters, you have a right to not be angry that those protesters [were] killed?" Regardless of the state of your business, you have the right to be ambivalent to a killing. I guess I don't see the point that you would make to the contrary. "If your business was [burned] down, then other crimes done during that time are also acceptable?" I think you are getting at an implication in Counter's statement that people should have the right to defend their business with lethal force, which you clarify in your last statement about lives>property. I wish the conversation stayed here but it seems to me that Counter was instead defending the notion of the militia patrolling the scene. There are other ways besides shooting and killing someone of deterring someone from burning your business; as Vaush puts it "if your a business owner and you want to chill on your property holding a rifle waiting for others to find out if a motherfucker would." They seem to disagree about the tenability of this approach to defense but this seems to be in line with what Counter would say is acceptable behavior if there is a threat to your business. Unfortunately, the conversation diverges before this is truly fleshed out.

[@monoclesquid9667]

The one good-faith conservative. Got into him before he became more open about his politics and drifted more towards Vaush. Is he worth subbing to?

[@andrewgrime8389]

Counterpoints is the only Conservative.

[@gking407]

Destiny and Shoe will get there eventually, they just need a little time 😏

[@CODDE117]

Yay! I always thought he was the most thoughtful "conservative" on panels.

[@Discojericho]

Sometimes, very very rarely, chat is right tho 25:40

[@CJojo_13_]

(Looks at profile picture) So you also like Disco Elysium. That's cultured.

[@rhoell2050]

Bloodborne streamer (TM)

[@dizzolve]

5:10 I'll tell you what happened on that panel ............. dude came on and in his intro ........ he had a goal to bring everyone to the center. Said it in the beginning. And as time ticked off the clock he felt desperate to get to that goal and it wasn't in the cards.......

[@julielandherr4686]

It's such a conflation of morality and legality to bring up the idea that a reaction being what would be most typical somehow makes it permissible. The legal argument had already been gone over, and, by the laws on the books, Rittenhouse can probably get off on all or most charges, and Vaush had already stated that, many times, long ago. But Counter keeps bringing up that what Rittenhouse did was an expected response when they have moved onto the moral side of the issue instead of the legal one, in which that idea holds no merit. Morality doesn't care about what most people WOULD do, it's about what people SHOULD do. Also, if you can't keep a cool head after killing somebody with a fire-arm, you probably shouldn't be considered responsible enough to possess one, since that's kind of the only thing they do and the purpose for their existence. I think Counter is just heavily weighed upon by his police and military bias, as well as the bias of American's gun culture and maybe even broader points of American culture in this topic as well. Many of those aren't as apparent in this discussion, but his conversation with Destiny about the events in the trial REALLY highlight that, things like complaining that police have to do their job and find evidence, and that the defense actually has to make cases and argue against the prosecution, and stuff like that, not to mention some just actual contradictory views he holds on policing and courts and stuff within this issue. Luckily, he seems to be smart enough to at least attempt to deal with these things when they're pointed out to him and doesn't just run away from them or deny them.

[@veganrican606]

These beast creatures in the game keep chasing this human that's shooting lightning from a spear. Smart aren't they.

[@veganrican606]

The slogan should have been evolve the police.

[@Indoor_Carrot]

I honestly think that if you knowingly and willingly put yourself into an already-developed dangerous situation and use violence, you cannot claim self defence.

[@isaaclemus9124]

with both of their bedroom lighting being the same, part of me wishes this stream was happening at opposite ends of the same room