Good Faith Viewer CHALLENGES Me on Race Issues

Amar (She/Her) joins the stream to talk to Vaush about a gripe she has regarding the coverage he gives on race issues.
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🎙Podcast - anchor.fm/vaush
⏱Timestamps!
0:00 Intro
1:00 Amar’s Gripe
4:49 Black Separatist vs Black Liberation
8:27 African American Experience & Cultural Identity
11:44 Class vs Race
13:22 Separationist Arguments
15:53 Why Vaush Doesn’t Cover This
20:44 This is What Led to TERFS
24:34 What Vaush Can Do Better
33:39 Vaush’s Language
#VaushPit #Vaush

[@jacobjohnston3983]

I do think it would be great for Vaush to bring on people who he agrees with, but are more educated on specific topics, to discuss these issues. You know, talk through the details, give your audience new information and arguments even if they already agree with the conclusions. One of my favorite Vaush videos was when he brought on the “based indigenous activist” to talk about rights and issues of indigenous people. I learned a lot from that.

[@Idf.explained]

I want Vaush to bring Zoe Baker back. That was a fantastic convo.

[@Nerobyrne]

He's done it before, so I don't see a reason why it should stop

[@robinpage9362]

He brought on a Republican the other day who was really cool, and completely good faith

[@Vic92084]

Hey Vaush, if you're reading this, I'm a constitutional/immigration lawyer and I live on a Native reservation. Hit me up! ;)

[@CultureStress]

Agreed

[@guillermocortes4415]

We had the NonCompete viewer and now this conversation, both were miles above the original convo and won't devolve into drama. Vaush should talk to more fans/viewers from other communities

[@xXFebo92Xx]

Well fans usually don't benefit personally from the drama in a financial way.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@xXFebo92Xx what does this have to do with their finances?🤨

[@minskghoul]

@@BlueTyphoon2017 They are implying that online leftists that escalate conflict with Vowsh do it for views.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@minskghoul or he's pointing out vaush's grift

[@grouchypseudopod354]

Honestly wish he would have more of this, but I also understand that every positive conversation does half or less the views of negative conversations.

[@NCapo20]

I make sure to consciously hit like on the vids that cover positive content to counterbalance the higher views of drama, at least.

[@kingofthebis1068]

But he benefits more from this than the drama streams politics wise

[@Cryptogram44]

@@kingofthebis1068 i feel Vaush has a very specific and important role in the leftist space and that’s bringing people over to his position, which is the easiest to do hostilely (whether that’s good or bad is a separate issue) since it’s more engaging. I also want Vaush to take the time to learn more and deepen his understanding, as we all should, but he can only stream so many hours and if that time is better spent knocking down bad ideas vs learning more about good ideas i think the knocking down bad ideas is the more efficient way to reach the goal of moving people.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@Cryptogram44 well, he doesn’t really convince people by being hostile. You’re always going to have a much a greater chance of bringing someone over if you’re nice to them instead of being hostile.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

It’s kind of sad honestly, these videos are always better then the drama ones because I more often see Vaush improve himself through these then the stupid internet drama he causes with petty disagreements with other leftists. If he wants views focus on debunking right wing bullshit, end then spend the rest of his time having these great conversations that educate his viewers and himself.

[@jdnb86]

A really good example I can think of, is after the conversation with professor flowers. You had the Native American woman from Canada on. She explained the land back movement and answered questions in a fairly calm and comprehensive way. Platforming the bad idea and the good idea was helpful in the moment

[@AlienZizi]

yes!!

[@kindredspirit9703]

I generally agree, but I also think if Vaush doesn't think he can cover a positive ideology in an engaging enough way, he could instead point towards a smaller creator that can

[@likeamanagersbossper]

You know what would be cool? If Vaush did a short segment like once a week or so where he shouts out specific people or orgs he likes. Just a quick segment so he doesn't get bored that'll encourage his audience to do a bit of exploring. I do thing there's value in Vaush spotlighting things he agrees with, simply because due to his size he is becoming more and more of a one stop shop for people

[@troyareyes]

So like his own Eyeball Zone lol?

[@Ironic_daemonic]

@@troyareyes came to say that lol

[@joeyjose727]

@@troyareyes what’s eyeball zone?

[@AlienZizi]

@@joeyjose727 a running joke that thought slime does in their videos lol

[@emilchan5379]

@@joeyjose727 A segment in Thought Slimes' videos where they shout out other smaller lefty content creators or organisations.

[@Dekubud]

This kind of video makes me think it would be interesting to talk to Vaush as a French Canadian about not only what's wrong with the French Canadians he talked with, but also to expose people, especially Americans, to oppression and discrimination that isn't targetted at colored or queer people. My only problem is that my voice hasn't changed yet since starting HRT and I can't stand to hear my own voice lmao. Maybe I'll suggest it once hearing my own voice doesn't trigger my dysphoria anymore. Edit: I'm saying that because there is also a separationist movement with some French Canadians.

[@amyglynn6827]

hey, I know literally nothing about this. I totally get if you don’t want to, but could you maybe give a little explanation to what you mean here? or what i could google to find out more?

[@hallesinclair5174]

A little off topic, but most of my trans homies take a speech class to help their voice progress further. It's very possible to change your voice overtime with enough practice. Sorry your struggling with this, it's tough.

[@incog.nyto.]

@@amyglynn6827 Basically French Canadians (Québécois), ever since the british conquest, were relegated to lower socio-economic classes and disliked in general by the ruling class for their refusal to assimilate to british culture. The friction between english and french we see to this day is part of a larger problem regarding the way anglo-canadians view french culture, as they have often mocked it throughout the history of Canada. For a lot of reasons, Québécois people rarely felt at home in Canada throughout most of its history. Once the separatist movement gained traction, the federal government got involved and meddled in the referendums, which destroyed all hopes of an independent nation for many. Since then things have stagnated. I recommend looking up "Why I am a separatist" by Marcel Chaput, which can help understand the reasoning behind the separatist movement. I am not a separatist myself, FYI. I simply think seeing the other side of the coin can allow a better understanding of the perceived threat of Canada's dominion over Quebec.

[@Gearsturfs]

Please do this I’ve been trying for years and even my masters program is freaking out on me I just suggest we intersect class more and it gets weird really fast

[@amyglynn6827]

@Aditya Chavarkar ahh right. It sucks that colonisation pushes people to the right. I guess when you’ve had your cultural identity ripped apart it’s easy to fall into extreme methods of “preserving” what little is left. Thank you for the info :)

[@sieg5857]

I agree. Vaush needs to chill with the R slur.

[@chairmanhiro7401]

Republican?

[@YomiTheBeast]

As a black person, this conversation made me weary of her views on race. The idea that race is something so essential that it could warrant any sort of mass migration is to me indicative of a particular view point on race.

[@YomiTheBeast]

@@morgancody6752 exactly, the core ideology supporting her position is the same one that’s used by nazis and white supremacists. That should be a huge red flag to anyone listening to this convo. I don’t think she’s being malicious…but it’s very sus.

[@YomiTheBeast]

Made it to the end of the convo. I see what her main issue was, signal boosting good content creators to counter balance the effect of him taking down bad POC content creators. Makes sense, but still a little sus

[@U.F.R.G]

@@morgancody6752 As an European I can confirm I make fun of Americans I don't hate them though

[@lanfrancoadreani9212]

I see what Mass immigration from certain countries Is doing to my country. Why should I desire It? Why should I not oppose It?

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@morgancody6752 Americans: My brother!!! Europeans and Africans: Damn it, more Americans

[@VagabondTE]

If Vaush is starting a good faith good convo arc then maybe I should hit him up again to ask him about healthy masculinity.

[@thinkublu]

Email him! Though he already has a few videos on that

[@VagabondTE]

@@thinkublu He has a lot of videos on it, but not quite what I'm looking for. I want to come up with a definitive definition for healthy masculinity. I don't think it's right to define toxic masculinity (which has an extensive academic description) without also defining what healthy masculinity would be. And I also don't want him to just avoid the whole thing by diving into gender abolition. I have a few things on my list but I'm curious what he would come up with.

[@CervantesVI]

Hell yeah, a Good Convo Arc would be sick.

[@Herosmurf]

@@VagabondTE Even though this isn't what you're looking for (but might still be helpful) I think that there are certain fictional characters, or archetypes, that exemplify what healthy masculinity can look like. If you read the DC Rebirth issues of Superman (or watch the show, Superman and Lois) then Clark is always very masculine, however it's in an extremely non-toxic way. Or to put it another way, basically the non-toxic father figure is usually still distinct from the equivalent mother figure.

[@Chirashin]

@@VagabondTE Yeah, I guess it should be fine to separate the aspects that depend on avoiding/dunking on femininity (unfortunately a large chunk of what's defined as traditional masculinity), then continue on from there and what does it mean for men themselves and in general

[@onyourleft5648]

I already went thru my ableism arc in college my roommate had a brother with birth defect and I accidentally used the r-slur and found out why it was offensive, to a small percentage of people and their next of kin it is a sign of hate and negative past of discrimination and the corresponding fear of being discriminated against. How it brings up the worst experiences in their lives and past. So I decided to stop using it and I think it’s for the best and we already have enough insults to lob at those who deserve them why not be nice to good people and be vicious towards the evil instead of demeaning one in comparison to the other

[@FelisImpurrator]

See, that's the thing. It's not intrinsically harmful then, it's just literally a trauma trigger. But the thing is, everyone has different triggers. Some people have PTSD flashbacks from being given gifts. Or being complimented. Or seeing dogs. Obviously there's a degree of justified consideration: Don't intentionally trigger people. That's a reasonable standard. Warn people beforehand for potentially triggering content. That's also a reasonable standard. But the idea that entire environments have to be sanitized of anything that might induce that response isn't helpful or necessary. In a way, it implicitly empowers the word or whatever it is - because you're basically saying it has intrinsic power to harm, irrespective of people's individual experiences with trauma. Maybe Vaush should have trigger warnings on his videos, sure, but as someone who actually did grow up getting called the R-word nearly every day for years? Fuck it, I want him saying it until the word loses all meaning. I want it ground into the dirt and worn out until it has no power left. I've already overcome that trauma, but the idea of taking away the power of the word is always fun, so why not? Samuel L. Jackson does it with the N-word. Besides, ableism isn't specific words. Ableism is attitudes and behaviors. Noncompete throwing shit over Vaush's facial expression is ableism without a single pejorative word being necessary, simply because he decided to one-sidedly judge based on his own emotional biases AND his normative expectations for other people's ability to use nonverbal communication. Ableism is assuming other people can't have valid reasons for struggling with or failing at things you consider easy just because you don't have a problem with them. And that means everyone is a little bit ableist, but also that it's a thing you can correct for. ...also, good and evil people don't exist. Good and bad aren't essential qualities. They're properties of specific outcomes.

[@onyourleft5648]

@@FelisImpurrator reread I don’t essentialize the people doing evil in original text I wrote, I argue for insulting those doing evil. I argue against comparing the evil doers (Matt Walsh or Shapiro) to those who were born different (I don’t think those who are evil are essentially so and I’m not sure I would have worded it to be). Second I argue for positive action action instead of cleaning the environments. I love the energy of attacking the woke-left wokescolds that suck but I really think that my statements and opinions are not scoldy and I hope ur focus is on those who make the left worse not my random dumbass. My goal of my comments is always to add, my comments were to point out how my friend made me feel that saying the R word was more comparable to the n word than I would have ever known I’m for a better wider netted left as a part of vaush audience and I hope ur the same. This is why my framing avoided calling anyone out but instead solely my and my friends and their brothers experience. Edit: tldr: are you sure I’m the enemy I tried to be as neutral while being far left as possible

[@rossfuller8025]

@@FelisImpurrator Your post is a very good example of how to speak a lot without really saying anything.

[@linaiisaye8357]

25 minutes in and I kind of agree with Amar here. I do think it would be good for Vaush to bring in people speaking about black issues that he agrees with. Like a black conversation arc. The problem here is the idpol of internet leftism. Vaush needs to do the idpol by having more black and native people on just to debunk all of the idpol twitter lefties. Discussions like these will change the idpollers' minds.

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

What? You want him to debunk those ppl then have nice agree sessions with ppl of the same demographics? To convince idpolers?

[@otto_jk]

Good idea and to my knowledge black leftists like Vaush more than white liberal types do

[@linaiisaye8357]

@@dannysdungareedanceoff8481 I want him to debunk Internet leftists by having black and native people on that don't believe in genocide Edit: I see where the miscommunication happened, I edited my original comment to make it clearer. Thanks!

[@coletrickle1775]

@@linaiisaye8357 Do you think Vaush is not an internet leftist?

[@linaiisaye8357]

@@coletrickle1775 no, in fact, I don't think

[@pax6833]

Main takeaway I think is that Vaush needs to kind of scale back some of his debatebro tendencies which to be fair he's somewhat moved away from. Like he said in this video that he prefers to have on people who disagree with him instead of agree with him, and like it's valid to not want to be a hugbox or just circlejerk with guests, but I think the caller has a valid point Vaush could see more success with having people on who are more knowledgeable about some subjects than he is. Like instead of just debating people like P. Flowers he could have a black person with good takes on his show and ask *them* questions about the subject, that feels like it'd be more productive than just having a dramastorm.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

At some point you have to unclog the toilet, even if disgusting stuff comes out.

[@EuropesNinja]

Very true

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Pf said exactly the same thing

[@normandy2501]

You could still talk to someone that agrees with you for different reasons, or with different methods to reach essentially the same goal. I'm not really sure why he doesn't want to lean into that more just for the sake of entertainment if he's really serious about moving forward. Part of what the left suffers from is the lack of an actual unified methodology and message when it comes down to specifics. It could easily addressed with more crossover conversations (not straight up debate for viewers that doesn't even lead to physical action beyond watching a stream). It would be interesting if someone like Vaush talked to some of the panelists that were on The Grapevine for a time about their ideas and experiences.

[@HolotapeDeepCuts]

I feel like this is one of the most agreeable and good faith critiques of Vaush I've seen and I genuinely hope he takes it to heart. I don't think it would be patronizing for him to have conversations with black people with good takes on things like black separatism if the goal is to genuinely present such a perspective to himself and his audience. Also, while I personally find some ableist jokes/language funny because I grew up with it, I don't think it's doing him any favors optically speaking and I would be fine with it if he even just stopped saying the r-slur.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

💯💪🏾✊🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@joesaurer1]

Her best point is sense of humor and crass language being a factor in sharability.

[@robostrangetv558]

What a great guest. I agree with her a lot. And what’s funny is that’s my main critique is the same as hers. I think ableism is real and I thought we agreed that there is harm in certain language. The revival of the R-word among the sort of online leftists im a fan of is disappointing. I don’t not say thr N-word or the R-word is pearl clutching, it’s because it’s harmful and I want to cultivate a culture of “less harm”.

[@robostrangetv558]

I also find humor in Vaush’s irreverence. I find him funny and informative. I don’t find reviving the R-word to be humorously irreverent.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Harm from words is subjective, not intrinsic. I've got plenty of experience with that word. I used to be called it every day in school growing up. It hurt then, sure, but now, I've learned that those kinds of judgments say more about the emotional immaturity of the speaker than they ever could about me, so it no longer affects me personally. I know that's not the case for everyone, of course. I'm aware others are uncomfortable with the word. But that doesn't make it a magic word that inherently equates to a form of violence. It simply means, in this case, that like all comedy, choosing an audience to cater to is important. If you're within a specific community that's not comfortable with the terms, just don't use them there. Vaush actually has done that - he deliberately markets himself as an edgy boy for edgy internet folks. It's effective at deradicalizing people who started out all the way up the ass-end of 4chan. But it does mean he's going to say edgy shit. Would you say the same for "Karen" or "cracker" though? Where do you draw the arbitrary threshold for which slurs are so heinous as to be inexcusable? I live with and around ableism everyday. The overwhelming majority of it isn't in mean words - the real harm is all in the things people don't say. People can use all the pleasant sounding language they want, while still discriminating based on their arbitrary, normative standards of ability in every single interaction with a disabled person. In fact, they do. The average person won't call you the R-word in public. But they will find every little excuse to avoid incurring the slightest shred of personal discomfort for the sake of accommodating your disability even a little. They'll just assume you should be able to do everything they can just as easily and berate you for not doing so. Noncompete was far more ableist toward Vaush in his response video than Vaush has ever been even at his most uncharitable. And Noncompete did that without ever breaking from his "you have to be careful not to associate with bad people or use hurtful language, don't be mean" aesthetic. He didn't signal bigotry openly, but he did implicitly have a fundamental lack of consideration toward an autistic guy not having "normal" facial expressions.

[@michaelb2948]

@@FelisImpurrator yeah that was seriously weird, and much more harmful than someone calling themselves something derogatory which would otherwise be used against them in a derogatory way.

[@macnificent4]

I didnt know who ms flowers was until u had her on vaush. Amar is probably right....seeing the contrast in the difference between good black liberation and bad is best for non black people and blacks to learn.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Pf tried to tell him the same thing but vaush kept acting like he knew better while being rude and absurdly incorrect

[@macnificent4]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW Yea....he didnt look great here. He acted like a white savior at one point and u can telling made amara feel weird

[@bigbawlzlebowski8886]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW his ego gets in his own way.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@bigbawlzlebowski8886 ❌! Are you a fellow dudeist priest?

[@AP-pk6mk]

@@macnificent4 he unironically thinks he's a white savior. It is disgusting to say he is good black liberation. He's said the n word before and defended it until a few months ago. If he thinks he's anywhere near black liberation he's a clown.

[@NightWindsMusic]

“I am the good part of black liberation, I don’t really feel the need to bring people on to talk about that” was kinda oof

[@joeyjose727]

Right like… Vaush just think about what you said just now for a second It’s unfortunate but the issue here is that Vaush is not the person to go to for a deeper perspective on these issues. He’s interested in explaining why it’s wrong, but not what a healthy expression of the idea would be like. Saying he’s more interested in tearing down the bad idea than promoting the good idea is definitely… honest. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, Vaush can do the content he wants, but as a viewer I wish he would do more conversations with good advocates. So many viewers comment that too, that they want conversations like that, but Vaush clearly isn’t interested so… except the time he brought the indigenous activist on, I’m still confused about why he did that but won’t do something similar for black liberation? Because sir… you are not “the good part of black liberation” and that’s okay! Of course he’s not. But it’d be nice if he talked to someone who could speak on that. He has a big platform so it’d really help spread better ideas

[@andreakoroknai1071]

yeah, he could have phrased that differently, I see what he means, but yeah... edit: I don't mean the "I don't need to bring on anyone to talk about that"

[@IAmTheBugInsideYou]

Glad to see someone else point that out because holy shit that was racist.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@andreakoroknai1071 what does he mean?

[@andreakoroknai1071]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW I think he means he represents/stands for the ideas of Black liberation and anti-racism adequately on the channel, not saying it wasn't a poor choice of words, and yes as Amar said, the channel could benefit from actual Black voices on the topic I see it sort of like this, I'm straight but I stand for LGBTQ+ rights, I don't adequately represent the identities of course, but I stand for LGBTQ+ rights on principle just as much as any gay person. I don't think that's an offensive position to hold, but I could be wrong...and I see how saying I already speak for (marginalized group of people) can be seen as talking over them, hence why people are cringing at the choice of words

[@vader3669]

Second class citizens in the USA certainly exist. Look at mi gente in Puerto Rico, and all the other US colonies like Guam and Virgin Islands

[@jhlasa]

Puertorriqueños aren't US citizens, right?

[@nubgaming1013]

@@jhlasa they are citizens

[@thomaasfist6494]

I think Vaush means well but I feel he has slowly become his own worst enemy. The political analysis comes from a very individualistic interpretation rather than the early days which felt like Vaush was the fearless voice for all leftists. In this conversation I struggle to see that selfless person. The guest brought up some very good criticism but Vaush couldn’t remove himself from being the most important element of the criticism. So his responses were very much a criticism of individuals and a defense of his role within these inner KZbin squabbling. I feel the guest was not speaking about the individual drama but was broadly giving Vaush a good faith critique to help him see from an outside perspective but he just couldn’t process that. Vaush is a gifted thinker and better orator with an added enjoyable personality. I hope he continues his success for a long time. I think that will be very easy if he is able to focus a little more on taking this unsure online left energy and direct in a positive direction rather than going purely down the drama stream route. I know it makes lots of money but it’s not sustainable for the long term. Ultimately it’s unhealthy for Vaush if he views success as more than the amount of money in his savings account

[@thomaasfist6494]

@PolySaken well thank you. Vaushite? With all due respect to Vaush and his loyal fan base but I’m a bit to old to kick it. Before the tragic passing of Michael I was a Brooks Brother with the true belief that he had something special to offer and through his work a vision of achieving a better world was becoming more clear everyday. I’m still in disbelief and I curse the nonexistent God that did this. At this time I have found myself most content with my fellow perverts in muscular class. A drama free wholesome bunch led by the great RM Brown. He drops knowledge with a comedic twist from his throne built of toilets. He is a true wizard with that sound board of his. The live stream twice a week is a good time because it’s mostly people from chat calling in and chatting with RM or guests like Zizek, Benny Pepino, or Grimes. The three of them rarely miss a live stream. I don’t watch it all to often because I’m usually working but the ones I catch are fun. If you don’t know RM now you know. Highly recommended

[@iatemyface]

I do like how civil this convo was. Keep doing the vids that take down those on the left that are like PF and tankies - they hijack rhetoric to help mask their lack of ethics and poor ideology. Vaush is excellent in exposing them and while not everyone sees it, Im sure those like myself really appreciate that he shows how dangerously unchallenged people like that are in that online left (hell i say in-life too at times). I'd say the biggest thing I agree with her about though is that sometimes his language is a bit too...volatile so it's difficult to share his vids from time to time. I get that it is part of his rhetoric at times but I even cringe whenever the word "cunt" comes out of nowhere during stream. I get his argument pushing back on her but I think if he wants to reach a wider audience, I culling back such slurs or insults can help. Not everyone is able to cut through that to get to the meat of his points/arguments. Plus I think for his videos he can go into a bit more detail regarding the correct way forward on a topic. For example, I loved that section with the NC fan discussion where he went off for about 3 minutes regarding modern day marxism. We need more of that in my opinion! Last thing, I do like those occasional convos where we learn more than just the rhetoric. The convo he had with the land back advocate was really cool. While I get we can possibly get that from other channels, like vid essays, I trust Vaush's approach/thinking to topics more than some channel I would be unfamiliar with. As we saw with the NC vid about Vaush - simply having a 2 hour long vid quoting text about dialectical materialism can be extremely misleading for the ignorant. Don't get me wrong, I like the vids about drama and knowing how to take down conservative & alt-left talking points - and in these regards I really like Vaush's content. But the convos like the one with the land back activist wouldn't hurt like once per week or something like that. They feel too far in-between. I wouldnt really put it as "well lets put the good one on now after taking down the one with the bad ideology no one pushes back on" but rather here's how we can expand our knowledge on a topic with a discussion with someone that knows a bit more about the subject - and to an audience that may not know as much. And Vaush can help translate that information into effective rhetoric while pushing back on the ones trying to hijack.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

His take on pf is horrid. Read a book

[@yomiknishes6976]

I definitely agree that the ableism stuff is cringe. I actually think the opposite, that you're limiting your audience by using that stuff. I know he might not care, but his explanation was literally outreach (even though it was half-joking) Especially because of how eloquent Vaush usually is. Like, there's no reason to make fun of anyone for anything outside of their control. The R slur absolutely counts there. The low IQ thing is sometimes a choice, so I feel that's fair game if you wanna be nitpicky.

[@enmysigmaquadrat9464]

tbh I share her view on the abelism arc. It makes it really hard to recommend your videos to some people and I honestly think you overdo it a bit.

[@aevinum]

See, I like that they brought up the indigenous activist, that conversation taught me a lot and I genuinely think it was more interesting than any part of the prof drama. Hell the video with the "noncompete fan" you just posted was pretty great as well. More of that kind of conversation would be amazing, surely you can be fun and funny when talking about things like that - just get in to it my man, there's always room for making fun of matt walsh and just having energetic conversations with people about topics you care about!

[@uninstaller2860]

Yeah the post-debate convos are actually really great

[@CrimsonOptics]

I know Voosh likes to argue but I love the videos where you just chill and talk about compelling topics with someone who's also advocating for good change. The indigenous activist video is one of my favorites for that reason.

[@revenge3265]

To expand a little bit about the cultural differences, a LOT of Africans do NOT like African Americans and vice versa. It's a pretty big contention point in the community. This is thanks to America popularizing racist stereotypes that largely effected other countries like Asian countries and thanks to America for popularizing the belief that every African is poor, dirty, etc. So there's been this weird hatred within both groups and it's why some people don't believe in worldwide Black unity, why some people don't want African Americans to come to Africa/want to "go back to Africa", and why I don't believe this prospect of "going back to Africa" would actually work amongst several other issues.

[@ItachiUchiha-sh6of]

This is something I wish was brought up more. The very real separation and complexity with the relationship African americans have with africa and vice versus.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

There would be no such thing as African decolonization if there were no political and cultural organizing between Africans and African Americans. It isn't just negative stereotypes about Africans specifically or American xenophobia in general, there are restrictions in place concerning what activities immigrants can engage in without having their visas threatened.

[@Ad_Vat]

I love callers like these. Please bring more!

[@noahjames8374]

I totally agree with her, it would be great to have on more experts on these specific issues, even if you agree with them. It would genuinely help us as an audience learn more about the more detailed nuances of these things. I know it could feel like a boring echo chamber, but so is just constantly arguing with people that we all disagree with. It’s important to have both.

[@talimn]

this was excellent, really been enjoying these conversations

[@Likeicare96]

I'm going to have to disagree with Vaush here because I feel like I lot of his defense is similar to the ones brought up Jimmy Dore or the Rising Lady about how they treat Dem in their content. They always criticize Dems and not Republicans, which I think Vaush would agree can give people the false impression that the Dems are worse. Don't get me wrong, there's A LOT to criticize the Dems about, but what you choose to cover can help create negative sentiments. I think it's important to push back on the harmful aspects on the "left", but it has to be balancedTM To be fair to Vaush, at the very least, he does discuss the left issues, as he states here, and that is his counterblance. But I agree with Amar about just discussing the sociological issues and not bringing in people who are more knowledgeable misses out on an opportunity to do a lot more good. Bringing in the indigenous activist after the PF debate, for example, was so good! Because I can see many people in his audience being "anti racist, blah blah" in theory, but becoming hesistat to anti-decolonization because of PF's representation. Yes, before Vaush maintained he was pro-decolonization, but it was an abstracted concept with the discussion of actual consequences being centred on the harmful PF genocide ones. Bringing in that activist gave his POV more credibility, and it helped that they were indigenous as well (yes, I recognize he is less concerned about optics but when you are arguing with the people on PF's side, they can convince many baby leftys based on ID politics, look at Noah).

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Racial separatists are not on the left, they're far right extremist groups. Calling their hate movement "decolonisation" is not as sneaky as they seem to think.

[@Likeicare96]

@@PlatinumAltaria I recognize that. I'm talking about how they come across (to politically illiterate people) not their beliefs. I also said I recognize the value in countering them, that's not my issue here. It's what you do after that. Just saying "they arent the left, this isn't decolonization" isn't enough. You need to provide more info

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@PlatinumAltaria the anc are leftist and separatist, so were the black panther party, so was the unia, so was SNCC to name a few.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW Cool but actually being racist means you aren't a leftist (and if you're going to say that separatism isn't racism, I refer you to Brown v. Board of Education) I know this is very hard for you to hear, but it doesn't magically become ok when you're "racist against the right group" or whatever you believe. Holding some similar views to socialists does not make you leftist.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@PlatinumAltaria tell that to the racist leftists that help to make black separatism necessary by denying entry into unions and/or lynching, and/or excluding black people from "the new deal". HBCU's are examples of separatism, are they racist? Is the congressional black caucus racist? Men and women have separate bathrooms, is that racist? I know this is hard for you to hear and maybe impossible for you to do, but read a book on the topic, you're spewing nonsense

[@ericktellez7632]

Yeah I agree with Vaush here, the real unity here is only class. Trying to find a unity between two groups whose only similar thing is their skin color wont stick at all.

[@kingjoeblack5]

Have you heard of whiteness aka racism? Been sticking for 400 years. In fact, it’s lowkey the whole reason this conversation is even happening.

[@seahorsemafia]

I’m glad this person brought up the gamer language. I’m all for some edgy humor but it definitely hampers things sometimes. I wanna show some amazing segments to people but if vaush goes into a tirade in the middle of it and says the R slur or some other dumb shit I feel way more self conscious about it. It’s his platform, but BOY IS HE STUBBORN

[@iPsychlops]

Yeah, I agree that there are some things that make it hard to share your vids that I would otherwise LOVE to broadcast.

[@Pookie515]

Respectfully Vaush, there are SIGNIFICANT differences between wealthy AA and poor whites that do not favor the AA. Studies have shown the maternal death rates for AA are 5xs worse despite SES and class. A white woman with a college education and low SES still has a significantly higher chance of her and her infant surviving birth compared to a college educated AA woman with a high SES. Even for poor whites they are treated better and still have more access and power than even wealthy blacks. The Harvard professor that was arrested for breaking into his own home in Cambridge wouldn’t happen to a poor white and certainly not for a wealthy white man. Money cannot erase racial oppression. One famous story Oprah tells is about a store clerk following her and telling her she couldn’t afford anything in the store. At the time she was a millionaire with a famous talk show. Even with poor whites there ppl would hesitate to mistreat them bc they may have a connection to a middle or higher ses person, no one assumed that George Floyd had a judge in his family or a brother that was an attorney or councilman.

[@piethein4355]

WTF is AA and SES??

[@Invisibleguy-kn7bd]

I think this is missing the point of what he was saying entirely. He never said "Racism goes away once you get rich", like it's very clear that racism happens regardless of class and SES. His point was that wealth in particular grants a LOT of social power. To claim that poor whites have better access and power than wealthy black people just isn't true. Like the first thought that comes to my mind is access to healthcare, which is significantly easier and more accessible if you have wealth compared to if you don't (That's even true here in the UK). Bringing up a couple of examples where famous/wealthy black people have experienced racism doesn't actually do anything here, because you're arguing against a point that was never made. Put it this way, although the wealthy black person may be more likely to get pulled over while driving, the poor white person may not even have a car to drive. Although the wealthy black person may get followed around the shop, they can still afford to buy all the things they actually want. Just because they experience racism, does not mean the benefit and privilege their wealth brings them suddenly vanishes.

[@chipotlegourmaise4250]

We'd all rather be Oprah tho wouldn't we

[@CrowsofAcheron]

@@piethein4355 AA- African American SES- Socio economic status

[@kingjoeblack5]

@@Invisibleguy-kn7bd the poor white person will never be targeted for being white. The wealthy black person will never have so much wealth that they cant be targeted for being black. Ahmad Arbery could have been a trillionaire and nothing wouldve changed because racism trumps wealth. How many black towns got burned down because poor whites didn't like successful black people? How many black people have been straight up murdered for daring to own things?

[@MrQuantumInc]

Interviewing experts and learning alongside your audience definitely works. That's like 40% of what "The Majority Report" does, and that definitely includes lots of various debates with people they disagree with. Vaush sarcastically claims to know everything but also seems to structure his show in a way that requires him to be.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

It's not sarcasm when it comes to black people for whatever reasons

[@moonlight-hm4bh]

commenting to boost the video because we need more convos like this one

[@LovedandTheLover]

Maybe as a community we can push harder for positive representation of these issues. Vaush can only do so much on his own so we can be trying harder to highlight activates.

[@violetsonja5938]

great comment we should be proactive in making a good community

[@Daydream355]

African culture does not belong to all black people nor can all black people relate to it. As a black American I wish Americans knew more about African culture but migrating to Africa just to be around other black people is not something I'd ever do lol.

[@ignemuton5500]

i think the biggest problem with connecting black americans to africa is that it almost always leads to the weirdly nationalist conclusion that "black people have to colonize africa!" which some weirdos did try doing in liberia, i think it's important to emphasize the uniqueness of black american cultures, to show their uniqueness, when you talk greatly about how they are supposedly strongly connected to "africa" it sounds like white liberal european talk of how africans are "all the same"

[@ativaadzem566]

I am african and I feel like those who want to go back to africa just don't understand how different each country and cultures are. It's extremely hard to be accepted as we tend to be huge on bloodlines and family name . If you want to live in big cities , sure but like , you'll always be treated as an outsider. Your kids might adapt but it will be very hard to get that identity back

[@violetsonja5938]

@@ativaadzem566 Thank you for that honesty. I have had African friends, but I also lived in a Black American community that had an influx of African migrants in high school. There was an undeniable cultural divide. I feel I have much more in common with Black Canadians, Black British people and Jamaicans and other Black Caribbeans. We have to accept that the diaspora created its own tree of cultures. Also, if we did do this, we are creating a whole new set of cultural conflicts (which can be overcome to be fair) potentially differences in religious views, economic disparities, etc etc.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@violetsonja5938 the black identity is multicultural, but hip hop is huge worldwide

[@violetsonja5938]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW ok? Are you implying our culture is only hip hop? There are Korean hip hop artists but we aren't talking going there right? My mom, my aunts and uncles, my grandparents don't listen to hip hop. Still, black. I don't know that music is strong enough to overcome all cultural divides.

[@marcischneider9093]

Her voice is so relaxing

[@RrRr-or5tw]

Really? she speaks so slow that it stresses me

[@marcischneider9093]

@@RrRr-or5tw oh, maybe it's because I watch the video at 1.5x speed

[@SillyNep]

Great video, always love these types of more chill good faith conversations.

[@Gearsturfs]

Simple answer It’s bad if you’re poor It’s worse if you’re bipoc and poor

[@italucenaz]

Everyone agrees with that

[@kyro8559]

@@italucenaz no, not everyone agrees with that

[@Idf.explained]

Truth

[@italucenaz]

@@kyro8559 everyone involved agrees

[@jasonwall2861]

I agree with a lot of the things said here. I feel like vaush could be a little less confrontation and “narcissistic” sounding when talking to other people. I feel like it would do well to attract more people and keep others around.

[@synthiandrakon]

One thing I will disagree with vaush here is that although African Americans are very American a lot of the cultural stuff is more African than you'd think. A lot of African American culture from food to music to fashion can be traced back to what the enslaved people's brought over from Africa. Although In terms of cultural identity and values there is a vast difference between African Americans and Africans, I'd be careful of fully dismissing influence of African culture on African Americans.

[@floepiejane]

...and on all Americans.

[@AP-pk6mk]

Exactly. Shea products, Fulani braids and bantu knots and other hairstyles, afro picks, our entire cuisine (gumbo, okra, the way we make rice, etc), African black soap, chebe powder, etc

[@PlatinumAltaria]

The point is that treating black Americans like they're not just Americans is weird and racist. They're not "african", they're from Louisiana.

[@ItachiUchiha-sh6of]

@@PlatinumAltaria I think its far more complex than that. There is a specific quote i like that I think is aplicable, "Black people are not dark-skinned white people." As mentioned before there are a lot of cultural and social trends in the black community that relate back to african heritage. Or the amalgamation of african and american heritage created because of the cultural genocide that happened during slavery. Im an african american and I (personally) identify more with being black than being american. Because for many black people being black has had more impact on their lives than being american. (this is in the context of america, obviously being black in say Ghana would be a different set of circumstances ) There is also the question of what it means to be American. Are we just talking about living in america, or are we talking about some national identity. So I don't think its racist to say that african americans or really any minority arnt "just americans" in this context.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@ItachiUchiha-sh6of I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's absolutely racist to act like certain groups have some kind of essential difference independent of socioeconomic factors. People are all born more-or-less identical, it's society that makes them different.

[@nmnmnmnm443]

Really enjoyed this discourse

[@soulmechanics7946]

"Do you learn things?" 👏👏 Spotless.

[@danielheflin6658]

These last two fan critique debates have been fire. Hope Vaush considers what they have to say

[@ironickrempt]

This was another nice conversation. I know he doesn’t like talking with people who largely agree with his positions, but I feel like those conversations end up with really constructive results.

[@sugarsaltspice]

I listen to you discuss with people/debate them when I'm in the sauna. Feels like meditation. MORE DEBATE VIDEOS PLEAWWSEEE!

[@RagnasDarkside]

This was actually really nice. I kinda agree that you should have more good faith people on stream even if you only end up agreeing with a lot of it. I've gathered from interacting with the community that the latest drama arc with NC really left a lot of people disillusioned and we could probably use a bit of good faith left hopium right now to boost morale.

[@bearcudlybear]

Gotta say, @16:11 Amar hit the nail on the head. One of my biggest issues with vaushs black liberation arc was that he found almost exclusively dumb black separatists, who are already on the fringes, to shit on. There was that one guy who's name I'm forgetting that he had on to correct him about what black liberation even was bc he admitted not knowing after his first black separatists arc. But that video against everything else he's done on the topic creates a perception in his audience that separatists are the same as liberationists, and they're both similar to nazis. And while I've seen him say once or twice that they're not the same, those were a few second statements vs hours of content where he equates the two to nazism..as opposed to having more productive conversation about black nationionalism. More concerning is his answer as to why he won't have on anyone informed on the topic suggesting that he has nothing more to learn bc he knows it all...despite on multiple occasions having to admit he was wrong and is wrong.

[@bearcudlybear]

Also, that whole "its on them" bc "the rest of the left falls behind them" defense is kinda weird. Professor flowers is an incredibly small KZbin channel. Vaush needs to stop doing the thing where he pretends Twitter is representative of real life when it's something involving him, but trivial when, for example, conservatives do the exact same thing. He's even called then out for this.

[@cbizzybandamus]

The guy you’re referencing is Joe Lewis

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Vaush has yet to speak to a black separatist; he has spoken to black people better informed than himself on the topic because they read a book.

[@RACMEAT]

her points were freaking great!

[@spaceamara9063]

Thank you. I tried.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Imagine if an actual leftist black separatist was on here instead of people only who read a couple of books on the topic

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@spaceamara9063 your patience was impressive. Too bad it takes a fan to get some good faith convo on bridging knowledge gaps in leftist ideologies from a self described leftist revolutionary. Subbed and ready for your voice

[@spaceamara9063]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW Thanks. I will try to get back on his case later if he doesn't do as we agreed. I will invest more on this if he keeps neglecting this. I will need a better mic, point at specific resources, and be a lil bit more aggressive.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@spaceamara9063 no doubt! Crawl b4 you ball! Something to consider: black separatism is about organizing within our communities to address the issues unique to us when we don't have suitable allies externally. MLK was a black separatist just as Booker T. was and the congressional black caucus is. There is a diologue within the framework that argues for segregation, but that isn't foundational to the ideology. Hebrew isrealies and/or the NOI are not even political, and is a disingenuous example of our political ideologies. What you did was necessary and much appreciated. 💪🏾✊🏾🤝🏾💫✌🏾

[@bardoftartarus]

"I am black" - Vaush

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

🤣

[@samwhite4961]

I think part of the problem is that when Vaush has conversations like this one, and another that was just uploaded with a NC fan where a lot more common ground is met and agreement about the issues is happening they don’t blow up as much. So based on the amount of attention certain content gets it skews people’s perception of what is covered in his content. The PF debate is not the average Vaush coverage of issues, it’s the exception otherwise there would be something popping off like that every day.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Are you suggesting he denigrates black people on the left for views? Damn that's lame

[@samwhite4961]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW I wasn’t trying to suggest that. I was trying to suggest that I think perceptions of content creators are often skewed by their most contentious content. I have no idea what goes on in Vaush’s brain, it seems like he gets enough views organically to not have to worry about manufacturing them but if that were the case I agree it would be lame

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@samwhite4961 I understand controversy sells, but how is vaush not exploiting that reality through how he engages with black people's cultural and political ideologies?

[@samwhite4961]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW there is a certain amount of exploitation for sure. I think every political creator exploits the culture and ideology of people, especially marginalized people to an extent. I get the impression that most creators don’t have an intent to exploit though. It’s hard to make a one to one comparison but I guess I sort of associate it with how we don’t have the intent to exploit people when we buy a phone but it does contribute to a chain of exploitation. I think you do have a good point though, there is a contradiction present being a leftist creator on these monetized platforms.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@samwhite4961 no every content creator doesn't exploit ignorance for cash. That's just the grifters. Some earn a living through educating the ignorant and empowering the marginalized. On this specific topic vaush is a snake oil salesman

[@jamesdouglasnorman4740]

Yeah she is right, I'm here for good takes from guests too.

[@ksdtsubfil6840]

I hope Amar comes back to talk

[@joeyjose727]

I feel like I was really seeing eye to eye with this caller, I think she made a lot of great points and I liked what she was saying

[@SlyCodyFox4]

She was great especially with addressing Vaush with criticism. Some that I've thought myself as well and it's great to hear another fan discuss it with Vaush in a constructive way.

[@STVPhilly]

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across to Vaush. You have to paint the full picture of what a movement is, not just show the worst element of it. Especially if these have the potential to be allies. Theres a lot of infighting on the left, yes, but we need to embrace the most meaningful part of any movement that have basically the same goals at the end. Liberation and equality for everyone...PF and dr Umar johnson are not the beginning or the end to any of the vast array of black liberation movement across the country. If enough people are coming to you in good faith trying to get these points across then at some point you have to stop saying "its not me its you". You said "the problem I'm having is, I'm like, hey these guys dont represent the black liberation movement;Then entire online left turns around and says yes she does". If you get outside your community and look around you will find a lot of people who have had faith in your rhetoric and ability to convey ideas look at you and shake their head in disappointment for the many many times you've been pleaded with to change your approach, and you stubbornly crossed your arms and insisted you are right.

[@GigasGMX]

I feel like you changed subjects halfway through this comment. Using proper grammar and spacing would probably make your ideas more clear.

[@Towerofhell]

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but are you saying PF are representing the Black Liberation movement? Because if so that movement is fucked. She might be a part of it, but I certainly don't hope she is a representation of it. Nor do I believe for a second that she came in "good faith" when she opened that conversation with her "Brownie point" thing, she straight up admitted that she was just going there to take the piss out of Vaush. Now again, maybe I misunderstood, but thats basically the only way I could understand what you were writing. I would like to add, that I did enjoy you and Vaushs conversation, and I agree there are things he should definitely change/improve on. But these people are probably not the hill to die on fighting for.

[@melaniey.5596]

Yeah. It feels a little disappointing that a part of this discussion was a rehash of what you talked with Vaush, and that he hasn’t moved as much as we hoped in platforming more black voices. Or people who share the same opinions as him but might have more to offer to the table. Mmm I wonder if the issue is that he brushes over black people who reach out to him, or that he doesn’t has many black people who reach out to him. On one hand he has recently interviewed Gregory Hardin II (but he is only one black person), but there was the whole recent drama with NC which was an distraction....

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Hebrew Israelites or the NOI don't have anything to do with black leftist discourse online or anywhere else

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@melaniey.5596black people reach out.

[@ashoka9306]

it's interesting to see how vaush's hyper self-confident, flippant debate style kind of turns on itself when paired with humble, non-confrontational speakers. He does it a few times (like when he says his opinions are alway right) and when in a debate with another blowhard this works well because it is funny and edgy and speaks to a certain truth (we wouldn't have these opinions if we didn't think they were correct), but with Amar it just let's him look ignorant whenever he does it. He just stops doing that after a while. Just an observation i recently made that vaush really leans into confrontation.

[@joeyjose727]

He did say “I get bored of conversations where I just agree with people at around 29:10 so yeah lol. Unfortunate, because I think it’d help him if he was just more chill… but he’s not, and that’s fine I guess

[@melaniey.5596]

Yeah, it really annoyed me whatever Vaush interrupted Amar to counter/comment in a point made by her, but on the other hand if she kept going on she would have made more 5-ish points and gotten away from what Vaush wanted to respond to... I also felt he was more hard on her than STVPHILLY, but on the other hand, he is giving her her full attention instead of playing video games while talking like he did with STVPHILLY. His debate bro brain really showed here, but on the other hand, it could also be said that he was just disagreeing with her. Yeah pardon this contradictory mess I’m also conflicted as I agree with most things Amar said but disagreed with some of what she said. But undoubtedly, Vaush should talk more too black voices and people he agrees with.

[@deangraves7462]

Vaush does have a blind spot on race. Racial disparity is not equivalent to class disparity. They are not the same issues and they are compounding. A black person's economic mobility and autonomy is till under control by historical stolen private economic interests. As long as implicit segregation exists (in terms of what property black people can own or economic mobility, or equal treatment in the justice system), solving class issues will not solve the issues of racial inequality.

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

He's never claimed they were the same Class issues would have a greater benefit tho but I bet you disagree with that

[@skylarkesselring6075]

@@dannysdungareedanceoff8481 what even are you arguing? why is it one or the other? Y'all are so weird.

[@deangraves7462]

@@dannysdungareedanceoff8481 No, he drew a clear equivalency between racial class and economic class. He wants to merge them as one class struggle. This is just a limit in his philosophy, the intent is good but I challenge that approach. You do have to divorce your economic analysis from the social analysis otherwise you are solving the economic class issues while preserving a social caste hierarchy with all the same problems. Lifting all sinking boats doesn't change the boat you were assigned. If we want to have a more just and fair system, the boats have to be the same for everyone as well.

[@Holobrine]

I love this good faith convo arc, keep it going! I think black separatism should be challenged on its own terms, and not assumed to be motivated by black supremacy automatically. Malcolm X was a black separatist earlier in his life but he was never a black supremacist.

[@bgiv2010]

I think you'll find that "the Black community" has pretty nuanced opinions about Marcus Garvey if you ever cared to explore the polylithic nature of said community.

[@istanknowledgereason1561]

Yep. Unfortunately.

[@bgiv2010]

@@istanknowledgereason1561 what's unfortunate? That the Black community isn't a monolith or...?

[@istanknowledgereason1561]

​@@bgiv2010 Being a monolith idealistically is pretty neutral, it really depends on the ideals. What I'm referring to was the fact that talk about Marcus Garvey and his beliefs is quote unquote "nuanced" in "the Black Community" is sad and unfortunate. For ex. imagine having a community of people be "nuanced" on whether a husband needs consent from his spouse if they're married. It's just a sad unfortunate thing for a group of people to be nuanced about.

[@QT5656]

Huh!? you think a husband doesn't need consent? He can do what ever he wants without consent?

[@istanknowledgereason1561]

@@QT5656 No I think he does!😂 but it's sad if a community of ppl debated over it as if it wasn't a given lmfao.

[@cv8683]

A rich black person still gets pulled over by the cops and discriminated on by his color

[@PlatinumAltaria]

A rich black person also has illegal migrant workers who they treat like shit. It's about intersections.

[@kingjoeblack5]

@@PlatinumAltaria illegal migrant workers volunteer for the experience. Nobody asked to be black.

[@kingjoeblack5]

Migrant workers can gain citizenship, black people… even the rich ones will be black forever irrespective of their citizenship status. It’s not about intersections, it’s about racism.

[@viinisaari]

@@kingjoeblack5 this is like saying 'well black people choose to drive a car'

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@kingjoeblack5 This is a sociopathic thing to say.

[@davec1406]

This was a really great conversation about how vash could grow his content a little and also why he might not want to as a streamer. This was pretty good and nuanced all the way through I think...

[@vrdynasty3896]

What a great convo. This person was great

[@darkphoenix2]

It sounds like she wants a debate analogue to the research streams. Learning from people instead of the Internet. As for the last part of the discussion, I think she just wishes you were less edgy so it was easier to show videos to normies. I've had that thought, but I like Vaush's edginess. That's part of why I watch him. So if I want to show my more liberal parents a video, I'll just have to choose carefully.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

No she's telling vaush his ignorance is dangerous, and he needs to educate himself at least to the degree she has, which is as simple as reading a book

[@themightymcb7310]

I think that the main issue between Vaush and Amara in this conversation is that Amara's perspective (and ultimately most separatist perspectives) on race is still informed by the institution of white supremacy. White supremacy tells us that the different racial groups cannot coexist in peace and equality, so the solution is that whites are given all power and the others must fall in line. Arguments for separatism come from the right place-they seek to end that unjust heirarchy and bring equality to all. The problem is that they only reject half of the white supremacist paradigm. They correctly realize that putting whites in charge of everything and subjugating everyone else is a bad idea, but they fail to similarly reject the idea that coexistence is both possible and preferable. They unknowingly accept a false premise and design their solution around accounting for it, which ultimately severely hampers their advocacy for racial justice. All of this being said, I think Amara does still have a point. Vaush doesn't bring on feminists because his channel and the broader left all do a good job of explaining that these days. The problem is that the rest of the left clearly has an issue with properly explaining black separatism and nationalism, so Vaush giving his perspective just feels like a drop in the bucket. On issues where the left does not have its own shit together, it's probably a good idea to play into the idpol a little bit and bring on a diverse cast of speakers in the wake of some lefty drama. Everyone loved when Vaush had a land back advocate on after PF butchered their ideology, so I'd love to see more of that for the shit that the online left has similarly misrepresented.

[@spaceamara9063]

I don't fail to account for that. I contextualize the reality that integration has only gotten us so far, and it's success ultimately decided by white people. As a result other options start being entertained and developed. Many black people don't like their liberation to depend entirely on their oppressor's kindness. Context for these ideas matter if you want to address issues you got with them. Saying they are wrong without even understanding the issue is very telling.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@spaceamara9063 I understand your point about black liberation coming from the "kindness" of the oppressors, but unfortunately that is the only way that poc have actually achieved any sort of racial progress in the USA. We saw what happened to Tulsa when black folks tried to become economically independent. That being said, I'm 100% down to try things like that again, especially since the optics of burning a black community to the ground today would be much worse than even just 40 years ago. You'll never see me argue against black solidarity and community. You will see me argue against most arguments that involve "going back to Africa" though. Black people are not internationally united through the color of their skin. There are very few places on the African continent that I would even consider having a shot in hell of allowing a large influx of black American immigrants, but even in places that would, I can guarantee that they will still face racism for their troubles. Africa is full of many ethnicities and racial groups that already have a hard enough time getting along without its fair share of genocide, oppression, and war, so I think it's very fair to be skeptical of the idea of moving Americans to Africa and expecting it to be any better than the US.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

And you still missed the trick, with all due respect. Black separatism is organizing within our communities to solve issues unique to us when there are no suitable allies without. That is why black separatism is a pragmatic approach to combaring white supremacy, etc. The problem is his ignorance is being addressed by people who also don't claim to be black separatists but read a book on the topic which made them far more educated on the subject than he. MLK was a black separatist as was Fred Hampton who vaush adores, but when describing black separatism he chooses Hebrew Isrealites, which isn't even a political organization

[@brotusclips]

the consistent breaking point of this conversation is in regards to Vaush's approach to content as a means of breaking down political viewpoints for his audience to better understand. Amar thinks Vaush should bring on better talking heads for movements, Vaush thinks his best work is done when tearing down bad arguments to advocate for the better ones. literally can't know who's correct here

[@stevenclark5173]

Well the latter gets more views and attention.

[@TM-vl9su]

both is good

[@brotusclips]

@@stevenclark5173 hard to tell if that attention is a net positive considering how much pushback Vaush gets from the rest of the community but I mean maybe that pushback is necessary to expose bad faith actors?

[@brotusclips]

@@TM-vl9su I tend to agree, I think judging from the discord rules and his points in this conversation, Vaush tends to let the content come to him and so he's less inclined to have one-on-one discussions with people he would just agree with. his podcast segments have been okay but there may be a point to make about using his growing and respectable platform to direct his viewers towards the better content creators that get less average viewership

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Vaush is clueless on the subject. He needs to educate himself so he can actually have a reasonable analysis of the ideas being discussed.

[@cass4752]

This one made my heart warm. Such a good palate cleanser.

[@dabrickshaw651]

To add my own two cents about vaush s language, I think it would help if he tried to sound less arrogant and like a know it all

[@skylarkesselring6075]

@@Crashawsome sounding arrogant and sounding intelligent are not the same thing. Vaush is aggressively arrogant, often bordering on narcissism, even when he is talking on topics he is not well informed on. It's really annoying listening to someone who cannot admit they are wrong even when it's obvious to anyone who knows about the topic they are talking out their ass. Vaush is undoubtedly intelligent and generally knowledgeable, but just steamrolls any topic he's ignorant on without ever engaging in fair criticisms. Also him taking pride in being "hated by everyone" as he says is weird. It's not always because ideological differences, it's because he's caustic as fuck sometimes and drives people away with his "i am never wrong no matter the topic" attitude

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@Crashawsome he definitly sounds less less intelligent to anyone who read a book on the subject

[@bgoodnow]

Vaush talking to an actual “land back” activist is an example of some of the best platforming I’ve seen on KZbin in a long time! That’s definitely something I want to see more often!

[@Theyungcity23]

How was that good platforming? Vaush didn't care about the topic. He just deployed that person as a tool in his spat with Prof Flowers.

[@bgoodnow]

@@Theyungcity23 she was an actual land back activist! Prof. Flowers is not, so she shouldn’t speak for them, because her language is damaging to their movement! If she took the time to talk to these people, get involved, and advocate for the real systemic change that they want, I’d be a little more generous to Prof. Flowers, but it didn’t look like she did any of that! Also, writing off an actual indigenous First Nations activist, because they disagree with Prof. Flowers is kinda gross!

[@Theyungcity23]

@@bgoodnow I know theyre an actual land back activist? Her not being an activist would only hurt my point.... I'm writing off Vaush for using that land back activist. Vaush had no interest in speaking with land back activists before and he has none now. Is there an upcoming land back activist interview that you know about that I don't? I don't think so. And it's kind of gross to vouch for people who are trivializing real issues. It's like when Steven Crowder brought on the one climate change denier environmental scientist. Crowder doesn't give af about the environment. He just needed a guy to get some points for his team.

[@bgoodnow]

@@Theyungcity23 I think you’re making a lot of assumptions, but you’re are welcome to your opinion!

[@Theyungcity23]

@@bgoodnow He spoke to one land back activist after one debate where the topic came up. I think you're ignoring something that's extremely clear. I don't think that people have a right to ignore the clear implications of facts.

[@entropias_gonos]

I mean, Vaush could simply invite some of those advocates of black liberation to make a small essay of their positions or viewpoints and then publish it in his platform, aka, the main channel. It feels like that would be helpful on all fronts. A) With Vaush vetting those videos himself and maybe prologue-ing them in the stream or something would showcase that he takes actual, boots-on-the-ground activists seriously and he understands/learns from their authentically marginalized perspectives. B) His audience would get exposed to the healthy and optics positive side of black liberation advocacy and not just consume the toxicity that is anti-white racism or the straight-up propaganda of white guilt trippers like Thought Slime. C) Those advocates would get a lot of new eyes on their work/ideology/praxis and possibly divert it towards political action through earning a bigger audience for themselves in their own social media (Plus, depending on how things work out in the backend of youtube, Vaush would be able to pay them pretty well for their work) I feel like honestly, that's a win-win for everyone. I totally get where Vaush is coming from when he says that agreeing with people is boring. It might be a bit problematic, but, there's nothing with finding enjoyment in conflict, as long as you direct that energy and need towards a goal that earns a net positive for the general left movement. Pretty sure I'm not saying anything new or groundbreaking here, Vaush has probably already thought of doing something similar in the past but it's hard to implement this stuff and stream for 4 to 6 hours almost every day and have some healthy unwinding downtime and sleep and do basic physical maintenance activities, and, and, and. In any way, I don't feel like any of us here are honestly pushed towards the right or a generally racist place by being exposed to far-right ideas coming out of African American or in general marginalized creators/activists/youtube personalities.

[@soccerruben1]

The question is who and where are those people? I know there’s that Aston Mack guy that chatted with Heem after his chat with PF. Maybe bring back InterlexualMedia for a productive good faith convo on this.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Are you could look to people like Cornell West instead of vaush. But I agree he could highlight the people laboring in obscurity to help us all

[@entropias_gonos]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW "Instead of Vaush." What's wrong with watching both? Is this VDS?

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@entropias_gonos because he has no idea what he's talking about on the subject in question

[@entropias_gonos]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW Yeaaaaah, I knew it. Your VDS is over 9k, and you just convinced me to not even google your suggestion. Nice optics job bro.

[@m0thdm]

Loved this.

[@matthewpernell7934]

I get that as a black person it feels impossible to love this country to “same” degree that a white person that does. I do have a part of me that wants to regain my identity. But I don’t think separation is the answer. In fact it feels like this need to be separate, mostly by rural whites, is what keeps the working class separated. Side note: I worry about Professor flower’s type stuff because she doesn’t seem to be representative of most black views.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Black separatism isn't what you think it is.

[@sypherthe297th2]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW Your repeated single sentence evidenceless assertions are massively convincing. . . No wait. The opposite of that.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@sypherthe297th2 if you want something more from me you can ask, buy I don't make my general statements according to your sensibilities

[@sypherthe297th2]

@@24.7SMOKESHOW You take the time to propagandize then do it poorly. So wasteful and eerily similar to a really sad little troll who knows he doesn't actually have a defensible position or the intellectual capacity to obfuscate that fact.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@sypherthe297th2 your delusions are not my responsibility, but thanks for sharing

[@beatleplayer1011]

I think she is correct in her criticism but we need a good analogy. I’m not gonna go through all of Vaush’s content but I remember him inviting on someone who knew a lot about the stock market and they talked and we all learned. Vaush saying he wants to excise bad elements of the left isn’t wrong to do it just isn’t mutually exclusive with what she’s asking which is to bring on people like the stock market guy but for interesting identity based stuff. Example! Fred Moten or Stefano Harney - but eh they’re academics I guess I can’t ask Vaush to get Richard Wolff on Anyway I hope the point is clear - Vaush is talking past her here you can do both like you did with game stop and the stock market

[@beatleplayer1011]

Go to 29:00 I think this is the essential point. You can learn a lot. Even Vaush admitted he learns from talking to people in the past. When the person he’s talking to in this video says “more of that!” yeah! I think we can - it isn’t just “I agree with everything” he’s done videos in the past where we all learned. As a content creator Vaush does have a responsibility to make sure the content is also helpful for the audience without assuming we all just go watch educational podcast. I know all you fucks here are as bad as me in spending too much time watching drama tv LOL

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

Did he bring that guy on after a bad experience with someone who he talked about the stock market with? Like he was trying to balance it out?

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

He doesn't want to learn about black people from black people, he wants to stamp out heresy from black people contradicting his ignorance

[@beatleplayer1011]

@@dannysdungareedanceoff8481 he realized he was wrong about the whole game stop thing, saw this guy on destiny’s channel, and then brought him on Not sure id get someone off of destiny’s stream for this but you get the idea

[@imcoral]

i agree with most of her points. i think it would be cool if vaush occasionally brought on experts that agreed with him but had more experience/knowledge of a specific topic. even if he just recommended other channels that are representative of the good side of black liberation or whatever. and yeah, id be fine with toning down the ableism arc since i think she has a good point, maybe it would be better optically /in terms out outreach to those that don't click with that humour

[@jeremyn4397]

I'm glad Vaush took the time to listen to her. She made some great points and he seems to have taken it in.

[@mconcepcion752]

Oooo, okay here is an idea. Vaush can have guests on that represent the good sides of different lefist ideologies, and to keep him from being bored he can play devils advocate. This gives more of a voice to the good the left has to offer, it will be an opportunity for everyone to learn more, and Vaush will be less likely to be bored since he has to incite discord and test the strength of their positions. On top of that we all come out better debaters

[@jordanthompson5696]

Completely agree with the general idea that bringing the worst representatives on will at the very least put an undue responsibility on Vaush to clarify. There is an alarming arrogance to the idea that Vaush can represent all good affirmative ideas sufficiently. Also, dig into WHY you only have people on who disagree. Is it entertainment value? If so, does that justify the outcome of an audience having at best an oversimplified view of a liberation ideology (among plenty of other ideologies)? Is it because you think ‘circle jerking’ doesn’t get anything done? Then why, as others have pointed out, have you had people on time and time again who agree with you on many things, things which you discuss (and seem to enjoy discussing) in the videos which host said people? I think the main spark for all of the drama isn’t the rift between ideas so much as it is the format within which the ideas are discussed. Put differently, imagine if Vaush was simply talking with a friend who had a weird opinion or two on certain ideas. Presumably he would be more charitable and aim to convince, to teach, to help. Not to destroy or defeat or whatever. That seems to be the source of antagonism from people, and that gets filtered through clip chimping and over simplification and a lack of charity on the other end. The idea that all video essayists who have discussed the professor flowers Vaush drama and criticize Vaush have nothing to offer the left- or in fact HARM the left- is just silly. Like, watch a single other video from them, or watch the parts of the Vaush video that aren’t about Vaush (usually Vaush is a stand in for the idea they’re opposing) and you’ll quickly realize oh, these are just intellectual people trying to figure out how to talk with people who they disagree with, both ideologically and aesthetically, on a platform which doesn’t support charity or interpersonal understanding. Vaush has a defeatist mindset about the lack of positive outcomes from him changing his behavior. But the truth is he has no evidence for this prediction. He has only hosted people in the same format, the same divisive context he always has, a context which doesn’t invite much room for growth on either side, so of course the lack of charity toward him is going to continue. I’m ranting at this point I guess but I just want us all to remember that the people behind the KZbin channels are in fact people, and most of the people who disagree with Vaush that I’ve seen also make good content generally. Give them a chance like we all give Vaush a chance.

[@Gearsturfs]

You sound like an annoying liberal Stop trying to equate being non confrontational with morality Every approach has its place

[@jordanthompson5696]

@@Gearsturfs I don't mean to imply that the 'debate bro' branch of breadtube is inappropriate, only that the differences between the branches can amplify the conflicts between them, and that all youtubers involved should be aware of that and aim for charity, patience, and understanding in order to counteract it.

[@Gearsturfs]

@@jordanthompson5696 being nice to manipulative leftists who have little resiliency to stress isn’t going to do much If you give these idiots an inch they’ll take a mile I’ve seen this so much throughout my life with under educated progressives or progressives with limited to no backbone They start using their feelings to control conversation and when they can’t they begin to manipulate and do that passive aggressive thing yuppies do to each other Giving charity to their petty complaints is counterproductive If I start a stream anytime I’ll be sure to be clear I will not be held accountable for people’s feelings and complaints unless it reaches an extremely high bar, this is the damn internet Grow some balls/ovaries

[@jordanthompson5696]

@@Gearsturfs While I think your broader advice is good, I feel there should be a sort of 'in the meantime' patience. Like, we're interacting in a space which has not historically been friendly. It's very easy to paint the wrong picture of individuals. I think people do it to vaush. I think vaush does it to people. Part of this is because there are different expectations for people who are parts of different... I guess I'll say branches of youtube. Sure grow some balls/ovaries, but if you didn't realize that's what you needed to do to effectively navigate this new space then it's understandable that you'll be in over your head. I think that's what happened to professor flowers (she admits in the video that they end up talking about stuff she wasn't planning on discussing, and that she would rather have different colonized people speak for themselves). Like yeah, she came off looking kinda foolish, but if Vaush was aware of her situation coming into it and not just taking this very dispassionate 'debating the ideas' approach then I do think that conversation would have gone better. The point is that it's on all parties involved to be aware of the circumstances surrounding a conversation when we're talking about a discussion which will get tens of thousands of views, if not hundreds. I don't think it can be as simple as 'grow a pair', even if yes, that is part of the overall picture here. Lastly, believe I'm not just commenting on vaush's videos I'm trying to appeal to the charity and patience of those who disagree with him as well, for what it's worth.

[@Gearsturfs]

@@jordanthompson5696 who gives a shit? It’s not useful to placate and get along with dangerous idiots We didn’t get rid of the alt right pipeline by hugging nazis. We debated them and onlookers saw how stupid they really were and were kept from being radicalized. If you wanna play politics and spend your time making people feel safe go ahead. I’m not doing it unless there’s a genuine desire for discourse and dialectic. Once it turns into a debate formality is fine but you’re gonna get dogged at times and so will I Progressive suburbanites are the biggest pussies on the planet and they try to moralize niceness Keep order and keep people on point and don’t let them run If they get bitchy when they run I just dead stare people until they realize they’re not cracking me, they either run away or they stop talking about their feelings, then we can get back to the ideas

[@rayanLS]

This was rather wholesome :D

[@tenlettername]

I wonder how well doing a debrief as a whole segment after those kinds of debates would work. Like taking the time to go over how those people aren't representative of the greater movement and then pointing to examples of quality examples of the actual movement

[@MrHat.]

Listening this live while playing Mass Effect was... interesting

[@Infinite_voyager]

This person was so right on every level lol

[@ZHike360]

I love the way she says "particular"

[@lil_weasel219]

partiCCCCularr

[@doublej7293]

I know many like their blood sports but I really tend to prefer the chill convos that are actually substantive. You usually get a good idea of where a debate is gonna go within the first 10 minutes or so

[@justin-md4xm]

She should do audio books. I want to wrap myself up in her voice and take a nap.

[@spaceamara9063]

Thank you.

[@doublej7293]

As someone who watches you regularly I’d never assume black separatism is the norm but I understand how someone could reach that conclusion if they hadn’t seen you state that it’s a small minority. I think she has a point in that representation of good faith actors in the black liberation movement would indeed be helpful to you and your audience

[@AB-zl4nh]

This is such a US problem. I am British. People of West African heritage have lived in Britain before the USA existed. The first Briton of West African heritage voted in a British national election 3 yrs before the USA was founded. Many Brits like myself have grandparents and great grandparents born in the Caribbean, Nigeria & South Africa. So we don't have this legacy of being divorced from our ancestry.

[@doublej7293]

@@AB-zl4nh that’s great but lots of people in the U.S. it’s not right that people assume that but it’s important to make sure people don’t come to conclusions like that

[@Superunknown190]

Didn’t he have another black viewer on recently that discussed a similar issue with him? However at the end I do think she has a point. Not that I don’t find Vaush’s language funny, but it doesn’t help his content seem more palpable to people that wouldn’t watch his stuff otherwise. Of course it’s his channels and he can do what he wants, but it is something to consider.

[@soccerruben1]

I think to your first question, I think you’re referring to InterlexualMedia, who helped Vaush distinguish between black nationalism and black separatism, even though this PF drama started because PF thinks Vaush hasn’t distinguish between the two. But yeah, IM was the one that helped Vaush on race issues, maybe bring her back on again!

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@soccerruben1 it was pf that had to school him on the difference, he still has it wrong and smears her

[@BunchyPanther42]

I do think Vaush needs to bring more people on that he agrees with more or people that are more well versed in areas where he may be lacking. At least like 1-2 times a month or something

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

Dworkin is NOT anti-man. You need to read "Intercourse". She was the best voice of feminism in the 80s, and was admired by many men, including Leonard Cohen.

[@hardy_har]

This feels kind of like a debate brain thing, not being able to conceive of a useful conversation that doesn't begin with a clear argument for or against something that the other person is against or for. For instance, one of my favorite videos recently was when you talked to the indigenous person about land back, and even though you agreed in general, they taught you (and me) a helluva lot! But the thing is, that conversation almost certainly wouldn't have happened if you weren't trying to win a larger debate with PF in which this indigenous person was your star witness, right? So it's still centered on debate, rather than just exposing your audience and yourself to someone with interesting ideas who you have access to by virtue of your platform. I totally agree with Amar(a?) that you should do more of those, without them necessarily being ways to prove yourself right. Think of it like one of your research stunlocks, but instead of assuming that your googling will get you the right information (which sometimes makes all of Germany hate you 😆), you just find and bring on an expert to ask some questions on the topic, and learn that way!

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

💯✊🏾

[@Feelingfruity]

I love Vaush’s videos. I do wish he would have more black people on when he talks about black issues and movements. It help him and his non black audience with understanding black movements. I actually like this video and the one he did with Interlexual. Also me and my mom have watched his videos together. We always agree with him. I think Vaush is pretty cool dude.

[@emilchan5379]

It great to have some good faith criticism after all the recent unhinged VDS drama. But yes she is right in that it would be nice for Vaush to have more friendly chats with experts or activists for more indepth knowledge on certain topics in between debates. The Indigenous activist Vaush brought on after that PF debate is a good example. I learnt a lot from that discussion. I know those types of videos aren't as popular as his debate ones, but I think it is beneficial for both Vaush and his community to get those kinds of perspectives.

[@truth2powermillions400]

African Americans do not come from Rewanda. We come from West & West central Africa. These Countries are treating African Americans VERY well. Also No!!! African Americans feel & see themselves as America by default. In most black households there are constant conversations expressing anguish of being the product of the trans-Atlantic kidnapping of Africans. Being that we did not choose to come here, it is indeed a fact our experience is unique and incomparable to any other social grievances.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Rwanda 🤣🤣🤣 dude is clueless

[@SirPhysics]

My big problem with the "I want more of that" complaint is Vaush should not be anyone's entire media diet. That stuff already exists elsewhere if you want it. It's like complaining that HBO doesn't show enough documentaries. If you think something someone is doing is bad, absolutely criticize that. But complaining that someone isn't doing something you want them to is pointless.

[@violetsonja5938]

Thanks for putting what I was thinking into words. Its like they want Vaush to be cult leader we go to for everything while also criticizing the community for that. We need to be ready and willing to go out and read a book or something and other leftist content creators need to pick up the pace and make themselves known without succumbing to VDS.

[@prawn1717]

Agreed. Vaush already stated he doesn't like doing that very often, and his channel is built around debate, something he's extremely good at. I think a better idea would be for him to shout out people who he looks to for education, at the end of a convo, end of stream or even just in the description. Part of the problem here though is that much of the online left is VERY similar to one another, with the two distinct groups of video essayists and debate channels coming to mind. Linking to studies, papers, professors or any other source would be cool though.

[@Whitepawprint]

For me, I think maybe the easy thing to do would be for Vaush to shout out any other creators out there who he thinks do make good points he agrees with. Smaller creators get a shout out, and it reinforces the idea that the person with a bad take doesn't represent an entire movement. I think it would be helpful for people in the audience to have other figures with good opinions to reference who AREN'T Vaush, because plenty of people will just stop listening if they think it's even related to a Vaush take. Big benefits as well if they happen to be part of the group being discussed (e.g black person talking on black liberation) even if just for the fact they're hopefully immune to some of the basic criticisms of "oh well this isn't YOUR issue!" and critics are forced to engage with their actual points more directly. If the ultimate goal from Vaush is to actually spread his ideas, this seems like a pretty low effort low cost way of doing that to me

[@SuperSuperspoof]

When Vaush mentioned the indigenous activist and Amar said "I want more of that!", I absolutely agreed. I suspect she'd say the same about the Black Media panel he moderated (with KataraNa and Aston Mack and The Paradigm Shift and others).

[@SarahRoseCO10]

I disagree with the level of civility politic that this person seems to want but it was a good convo and I do agree that I like when he has people on that he agrees with, the chill convos are great.

[@The_Chosen_Heretic]

5:47 That’s absolutely true I will say. I’m black (mixed but nonetheless), but my little sisters both have African mothers, and there is a world of difference between us regarding culture and ethnic identity.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

Then you haven't been to Senegal. Hip hop is global

[@doublej7293]

I really liked what she had to say, I think having more experts/knowledgeable people to come on and talk praxis especially would be great.

[@SigurTibbs]

As an African who moved to the US and has been naturalized. I would say yes Black Americans, are American but they are distinct from "America" itself due to having a totally unique experience of the country. As a result blackness broadens, its why Africans, Afro-Carribbeans, Afro-Latinos etc can all come to the US and pretty quickly find a home within the Black community, and have a fairly easy time integrating family structures and traditions. The solidarity/unity comes from the fact that you are black, and whether you're black from America, Africa, South America the experience is pretty globally applicable. When I moved to Germany i immediately connected with Ghanaians and Ethiopians there even though I'm Zimbabwean. As far as African Americans integrating to African nations, I think Vaush would be really surprised how readily a lot of African countries would accept African Americans. Especially places like Ghana, or Botswana.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

✊🏾👑🤝🏾