Gender Abolition vs Gender Liberation, Gender Roles, Neo-Pronouns, AND MORE!

Thanks to Hanz for putting this together!
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#Gender #Pronouns

[@testoftempest]

Do you like Firefly? Only question that really matters here.

[@SylvanasWindrunnerResurrected]

yes.

[@girv98]

yee

[@jonathantfreeman]

yes

[@Juhz0r]

Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

[@nevreiha]

You would not believe your eyes

[@ladyvoldything]

I love how he introduced himself. Really leaning into the absolute freshness of his never-before-heard cis perspective.

[@raining_trees]

For the first 10min of this video I was thinking Vaush's video had become horizontally squished; turns out I'm just not used to Vaush's skinny legend form yet.

[@wile123456]

After 2 years, Vaush finally beat No Bullshit after the hard debate. He is no longer, in fact, fat.

[@derpythean-comdoge8608]

@@wile123456 he wasn’t even *fat* then, at least judging by his nudes.

[@nipplenuggets762]

Yeah im looking at it again and he really has lost a lot of weight

[@AnimeFan9833]

@@wile123456 That wasn't nobullshit, it was some other dude, I forgot his name but he's irrelevant anyway.

[@guiden1954]

@@AnimeFan9833 I hypocrite

[@mastergame1311]

malcom (he/him) Lumi Rue (they/them) Vaush (you)

[@samwhite4961]

This is great, I really crave more conversations without any right wing opinions so we can spend 5 minutes on definitions and not 2 hours of some chud not understanding the meaning of words. It’s so informative to hear people in good faith diving deep on the topic of gender from multiple perspectives.

[@yoomisplace7267]

You talk about the meaning of "words" and I bet everything you think a Traswoman is actually a woman. Fucking hilarious.

[@kiiyll]

@@yoomisplace7267 Thanks for the engagement. Maybe watch the video before commenting next time?

[@Isaac-LizardKing]

@@yoomisplace7267 what the hell are you doing here

[@yoomisplace7267]

@@Isaac-LizardKing whatever I like

[@Isaac-LizardKing]

@@yoomisplace7267 you’d have a much better time touching grass.

[@__-bk6mm]

The wholesomeness of this panel we need at least 10 more videos of this group of people.

[@jaybee27D]

At some point someone remarked that in Ancient Greece women were seen as basically the more horny gender, and it got me curious so I looked through a bunch of research papers and I honestly just cannot find anything, even just like anywhere on Google, that supports that claim. Would be based if true, I’d appreciate if someone could find a source on that, but just kinda seems like misinformation to me as is.

[@jaybee27D]

@@liveon9599 Didn't actually find much about it in that reading except for a passing comment about women's insatiability at the very end of the art chapter. Interesting read though. But I think my confusion was because I was looking at Greek rather than Roman sexual studies. Once I started looking for that it became more clear that Romans seemed to think masculinity was in-part about self-control, and thus in all aspects of life, sexuality included, women would naturally lack the self-control to not just fling themselves at men. Makes sense in that context, definitely a sexist way of thinking about it but worth bringing up for argumentation I'd say. Can't find the timestamp from the video that sparked this discussion so I don't know, maybe I misheard and they said Roman or maybe not. As for the Tiresias myth, I still don't think that's great evidence as it deals more with pleasure in the act of sex rather than the desire for sex. They might seem like they should be the same thing, but think about it. Even in our present society we see men as more lustful, and yet we see women as deriving more pleasure while in the act, evidenced by how they're the only ones expected to moan

[@aidan5332]

Women were actually seen as the more horny gender! A lot of Greek medical cures for women just included having sex with them to “fill them up.” The Greeks believed that women were hollow and the uterus could move around the body when it was starved for sex. The uterus was often compared to a wild animal actually. I’m in a classics class right now about sexuality in the ancient Mediterranean. One good source for it is Women in Ancient Greece by Sue Blundell or you can just look up where the idea of hysteria came from. In the ancient world, hysteria was thought to have been caused by the womb because women waited too long to have sex, and it’s cure was (you guessed it) pregnancy! I also really like Women in Medicine by Holt Parker. Basically yes, it’s very well documented that the Greeks thought women were more horny and men enjoyed sex much less than women.

[@RiverboatJack]

Yeah, one of the big reasons Greeks in ancient times tended to cloister their women was the belief that their sexuality was dangerous and women, specifically "valuable" women, producing children was tightly controlled for legal/economic purposes. However, there is some debate about this in academia because we tend to know more about Athens than we do about other city-states and there are a lot of vague insinuations about various social roles that would have been common knowledge at the time but now leave room for interpretation. To what extent women conformed to their expected social roles is also still debated. It's all interesting stuff!

[@jaybee27D]

@@aidan5332 Interesting. Not sure how all the other articles on Greek sexuality and gender I spent some time looking through didn't mention anything about this uterus hysteria thing, but looking for that specifically also seems to provide some pretty blatant evidences of Greeks seeing women as hornier. Again, sexist, but kinda based I guess if you want it to be. Appreciate the source.

[@ifeeltiredsleepy]

As a literary scholar, this is a common belief expressed in a lot of Renaissance literature. Partly it arises, I think, from the reality that men cannot continue to have sex after orgasm (to an extent) but women have the ability to be insatiable. The stereotype of a sexually promiscuous woman who just can't be satisfied appears throughout 16th to 18th century fiction. The 18th century really changed a lot of our gender stereotypes as the nuclear family became more of a thing and women's role in public society became more restricted. Edit: This doesn't mean it reflects any sort of reality of people's lived experiences since men were committing sexual assault like crazy during these times, but they at least conceived of feminine sexuality as out of control and as women as always horny. Partly this also justified many expressions of "she secretly wanted" throughout the literature of the period as well.

[@thatguy779]

As far as neopronouns go, my take is that they’re weird and lack utility for society outside of a specific individual but otherwise harmless so I just default to they/them as they’re the gender neutral option. However I don’t like the argument that “all words are made up” or “language is always changing” because while those are technically true that doesn’t discredit the reason why those things happen: utility and ease of understanding for the most amount of people. It’s the reason no matter how much slang is invented it usually falls out of common vocabulary fairly quickly and we drop words that have no uses to us/only keep ones that do

[@gasc0ny]

I understand and a agree with your point but don’t say “they’re just weird” because its not really a good argument

[@thatguy779]

@@gasc0ny them being weird wasn’t meant to be a point for or against them, just my personal feelings on them. In that sense it’s the same way I react to astrology (though obviously we can all recognize one as more valid/serious than the other). Like it’s unusual/weird, *but* whatever, it doesn’t hurt anyone

[@gasc0ny]

@@thatguy779 yeah but when talking about it in a debate or something never bring up how you personally feel about it, make arguments based on logic and reason Shapiro style 😎

[@thatguy779]

@@gasc0ny sure, but I’m not debating it, and even then the best of debaters, the master debaters if you will, can certainly explain how they feel about a thing while strictly using logic to argue their points

[@OneReallyGrumpyJill]

Utility and ease of understanding is really good argument against, technically, neopronouns but that also does not put you into right camp. So pog, big head.

[@eliasE989]

This was a nice and chill panel. As a basic straight cis dude there are many things I've taken for granted and I've learned a lot from discussions like these.

[@fontunetheteller410]

You refer to your own sexuality almost disparagingly

[@terrystevens3998]

@@fontunetheteller410 what exactly was disparaging?

[@TheKing-ve7lz]

Same

[@marciamakesmusic]

@@terrystevens3998 people like this think that even acknowledging that cis people are cis is somehow disparaging when it's just a social category used to differentiate between people who do/do not feel at peace with the gender they were assigned at birth

[@sarinabina5487]

glad ur educating urself on stuff like this!! as a trans person it always makes me happy 2 see cis ppl educating themselves on these things:)

[@8Rincewind]

28:03 I've thought of pretty much this exact argument myself. There are plenty of people, including adults, who heavily identify with their Hogwarts house. In some ways it's actually more meaningful than gender because sorting quizzes determine your house based on your personality, rather than people making assumptions based on a label. Despite people earnestly identifying with this label and it being important to them, it's not reflected on any official documentation. You can bring it up in conversation, some people will mock you, but many will just go "Uh, yeah sure, I think I'm a Gryffindor, I haven't read Harry Potter since I was a child." Over time these Hogwarts houses will become less well known (probably) eventually if you say "I'm a Gryffindor" most people won't know what you're talking about. There's nothing stopping you from using the label and explaining to everyone else what it means. But the cultural norm of it being a thing that can just be brought up without explanation will be gone. That's how I imagine gender will go. First completely normalise trans folk. Normalise non-binary and gender fluid people even more. Deconstruct gender as a social construct so much that everyone realises how silly it is. They / them genders become even more common. The labels male and female will seem old fashioned. Eventually gender drops of official forms and just becomes an optional thing like your star sign.

[@derpinator4912]

I think that male and female will still be around to refer to sex. There are many places, like in science, where it matters a lot.

[@8Rincewind]

​@@derpinator4912I'm assuming that you're an opponent of "trans ideology", so I'm probably treating your argument with more respect than it deserves. Of course physical SEX is important in many cases, but we are talking about GENDER. Currently our entire society is gendered unnecessarily men's clothing, women's clothing, girl toys, boy toys, gendered toilets. There are some things that will be tied to sex, e.g. If underpants have a hole in them, they're probably for someone with a penis and bras are designed for people with breasts. But these are rarities, there's nothing biological about skirts or the designs of suits that mean they need to correlate to a certain sex or be assigned to a certain gender. I want a world where your physical sex is treated like your blood type out whether you're circumcised or not. When it comes to people you're going to have sex with, some people might have a preference, but most people won't care. And there'll be niche occasions when it's relevant when you're talking to your doctor. It's NOT something that needs to be brought up when being introduced to strangers or when completing official documents.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@derpinator4912 I think 99% of people in this comment section are well aware of the basic sex/gender distinction.

[@gvd72]

But wouldn’t people still make assumptions? For example: let’s say the Hogwarts Houses become the “new genders” of the future. Currently, we define Houses by a quiz, like you said. However, couldn’t it eventually get to the point where people could label others by observation them? If I met you, and you came across as confident, brave, valiant, etc. then couldn’t I just assume you’re a Gryffindor, even if you were actually Ravenclaw? And even if you told me otherwise, I don’t have to agree with it. Similar to how someone will say “I’m non-binary” and someone else will respond with “no, you’re a girl”. Lastly, as Derpinator said, people will still use male and female as determinants. So even if gender is abolished, people might just come up with new words for “boy” and “girl”.

[@vampireinthekitchen]

Nearly all of the xenogenders I've seen seem to aestheticize the concept of gender, e.g., bunnies, stars, very uwu esque. I don't think that's the route the left should head in to achieve gender abolition. If anything I think it puts more emphasis on gender by expanding it. I'm not here to determine whether or not xenogenders are valid, that's a completely different discussion. But no one wants to touch this topic with a 40ft pole in fear of being called transphobic, so I grately appreciate Vaush's takes.

[@Freyaundergrowth]

Please remember a lot of these people using these kind of pronouns are kids and it reflects old tumblr days just give it a few years and these kind of pronouns will be normalized because the kids will round out

[@fontunetheteller410]

Honestly I would take xeno genders a whole lot more seriously if they got rid of the uwu shit.

[@vampireinthekitchen]

@@Freyaundergrowth I think we can all agree sending hate towards kids is cringe.

[@lil_weasel219]

@PolySaken keep in mind that a lot of nonbinary they them folk dont have gender dysphoria i get your point but keep that mind.

[@seb267]

@@lil_weasel219 Why tf does that matter

[@RecDougs]

Just saw you uploaded another video chatting with Jack while I'm watching this. Really happy to see more of these discussions on your channel. It's fun and all seeing you dunk on transphobes but I do want to see more concise and well-spoken discussions on our interaction with gender. Thanks!

[@MikhaNoodle]

I think the only thing that changed my opinion a little bit was when Lumi talked about their experience with wanting to use a neo-pronoun, but for now deciding on they/them. The idea of feeling left out because they're nonbinary and don't feel like he or she works, but now the only option is the neutral they which is also used when people don't know another's pronouns. So the idea of creating a new pronoun to describe themselves like how others already have the well established he and she would be cool. I'm still in favor of gender abolition and moving away from gendered pronouns all together, but I am a little more empathetic to Lumi's position on neo-pronouns.

[@grouchypseudopod354]

As a mostly feminine presenting enby, I love wearing suits. 🤷

[@natnpc3136]

As a mostly masculine presenting enby I always hated suits XD

[@somenerdwithanopinion7778]

As a fellow enby I encourage you to never stop

[@daynerogers8133]

Suits are dope, especially on anyone but a cis dude

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

@@daynerogers8133 What's wrong with cis dudes in suits tho :/

[@DUWANGlai_kangyi]

@@mielipuolisiili7240 I think they didn't mean to imply suits on cis dudes look bad, but that it's the norm for cis dudes to be the wearers of suits so seeing them on other people feels less... Same old thing. Ya know? That's what I read the comment as tho.

[@theatomicartist6422]

I recently came out as gender fluid 🌈🌈🌈 happy pride

[@IndigoGrey]

Based

[@Kazoo_man64]

Is gender fluid different from non binary?

[@mopeybloke]

That's so weird. Like woosh my gender is the wind.

[@jaylundneal3331]

@@Kazoo_man64 Yes. Gender fluidity is someone whose gender expression/identity changes over time, not set in stone. Nonbinary is a branch of a whole lot of genders not within the he/she binary.

[@theatomicartist6422]

@@jaylundneal3331 right 😊😊🌈

[@ShookieShook]

Really disappointed that Malcom turned out to have hardcore VDS, yet didn't hard challenge Vaush on any of his neopronoun takes, opting to just shit talk him on Twitter. I had my suspicions though, anytime Vaush said something lighthearted or funny, everyone would smile and laugh, except him.

[@AR15ORIGINAL]

What are Malcolm's opinions on stuff otherwise?

[@ShookieShook]

@@AR15ORIGINALHe's a leftist, he doesn't seem to have any, like, pro-China stances or anything. I just wish he'd challenged Vaush on the things he disagreed with him on.

[@VannaValentine]

What's VDS? Google doesn't help me.

[@Dappis]

Seems like a chill dude who should just use twitter a bit less.

[@soccerruben1]

@Dappis And should not based his opinions on Vaush from bad-faith actors via the four out-of-context clips.

[@Enkiaswad]

This is actually very wholesome and chill. I thought it would be anxiety inducing, but after I saw who is on the panel I went for it. It actually manages to calm me whilst I write CVs and stress the hell out about balancing my job, job hunting and personal stuff. That's saying something!

[@NPipiniko]

These folks seem like really nice people.

[@jakecorenthose2901]

Malcolm was "hiding his power level" as zoomers like to say. He talked maaad shit about Vaush after the panel. Talking shit about Vaush is fine, but he should've done it to his face.

[@NPipiniko]

@@jakecorenthose2901 could ya send the link? Or was it after the stream ended?

[@jakecorenthose2901]

@@NPipiniko After the stream.

[@NPipiniko]

@@jakecorenthose2901 then how'd ya know they did that?

[@jakecorenthose2901]

@@NPipiniko Vaush highlighted his tweets on the livestream? lol

[@ofanichan]

I absolutely adore Jack. She's such a cool human 🥺

[@WhichDoctor1]

She is lovely isn't she! I hadn't come across her till her drunk chat with vooshé, but I'm definitely a fan now

[@dacealksne]

I think its a cross-dresser

[@ofanichan]

@@dacealksne then your thoughts are wrong 😌 she's a pretty cool girl

[@kurtacus3581]

I think the only worry i have about neo-pronouns is that we dont really have a solid defence for it yet. I don't personally have any problems with neo-pronouns. But i dont really know how to defend against "this is literally just the attack helecopter joke" other than saying that pronouns arent necessarily tied to gender, so someone who uses star pronouns doesnt actually think they are a star? Either way, im not really that satisfied with the others answers about neo-pronouns. Its a lot of just "thats the way it is now, deal with it" vibes to it. And it just reminds me of 2016 buzzfeed levels of "i dont need to explain/argue this with you" type of attitude. I think we just need to figure out the whole neo-pronouns argument before it becomes the dominant right wing boogyman that we dont have an answer to, and then get set back another four years

[@davidc7450]

Great conversations. I do think the "conservatives won't like neopronouns" argument isn't great because yeah, they're not going to be happy either way. That said, I think people underestimate how much that kind of thing can be a wedge issue for normies, centrists, even leftists who aren't really in the know about the nuances of gender. I've met plenty of people who are like alright, trans people are valid, I'll respect non-binary people even though I don't "get" it, but this XE/XIR SHIT? TOO MUCH. And to some extent, I kinda get that tbh. If these people are already feeling like they need to tiptoe around using they/them for a non-binary person to avoid being a jerk, conceptually applying that same social pressure to using something that it seems like a lot of people agree functions similarly to a nickname... I dunno, people can do whatever but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on when I'm trying to convince folks.

[@tracygrant7931]

Well then don't call yourself a trans ally then if you're not willing to respect someone's pronouns

[@davidc7450]

@@tracygrant7931 Not interested in being a blind "ally" who does whatever the consensus says to lol. Sorry I actually care about the issues, I guess

[@pumkinswift8263]

I think that neopronouns are pretty inevitable. People aren't going to ever start just identifying as they/them on a massive scale. The way we deemphasize gender as a concept is by expanding it away from it's gender essentialist roots. Neopronouns are probably the most gender abolitionist thing I've ever seen someone do

[@ThatOneRubeGuy]

holy shit never seen a take this based in a comment section

[@lil_weasel219]

and they can use it for themselves no problem however, expecting others to memorise custom neopronouns is a no by me. Ill call them they/them and the other combos of the main 3

[@jazzpear8877]

Nah, I think singular "they" will go the way of singular "you". If we need to specify plurality, we say "you all," "you guys" or "y'all". Similarly, we can say "they all" or "they both" or "all of them" to specify plurality.

[@italucenaz]

@@lil_weasel219 why can't you just use the pronoums they preffer? Is it that difficult to say bunny, faer or kittyself? You won't find 1000 enbies each with a different neopronoun for you to memorize if that's your concern, you may find it unecessery, weird or dumb, but at least respect them, you don't have to agree this is super effective against gender roles either, jesus

[@simons5714]

@@italucenaz As a neurodivergent person, It can be really confusing to put nouns in the place of pronouns. Sentences just stop making sense. I know a lot of other neurodivergent people, especially ones with difficulties processing speech who also have trouble with this.

[@felicitys3621]

Omg my friend was on Malcolm’s panel before! It’s cool seeing this dude in a Veiaoush video

[@theevilonewholaughs]

I clicked on it so fast that I realize it says gender panel and not gender reveal

[@aboycalledfish]

Can someone tell me... Did the other people know that Vaush was talking over them the whole time, or was there some kind of streaming magic where he was only speaking to his viewers?

[@Fruitboots25]

He mentioned it when he first introduced himself, he was using push to talk for the debate so he could choose when everyone could hear him.

[@audiebridge3103]

@@Fruitboots25 I missed that. I'm ten minutes in and just thought he was being really rude.

[@aboycalledfish]

@@Fruitboots25 okay thanks for clarifying that! I have no idea how that kind of stuff works xD

[@KarlSnarks]

I was afraid to sound like a boomer (despite being 28) for asking this, so thanks ;)

[@aboycalledfish]

@@KarlSnarks I'm 26, taking one for the team xD

[@l.francesca4780]

My cousin refused to believe that Usopp from One Piece was a boy because he had eyelashes but was 100% down to clown and main as Chopper in One Piece Grand Battle "because he's cute." The way kids register gender in cartoons is... weird. XD

[@audiebridge3103]

I knew someone in school who fought Usopp was a girl as well, I think it was because of the hair.

[@l.francesca4780]

@@audiebridge3103 To be fair, he has eyelashes, long hair, and a clasped bag which sort of resembles a purse, so it kind of makes sense but it's funny that some kids just do not buy Usopp as a man but 100% buy tiny little mascot sized, pink-wearing Chopper as a man. Still, de-feminizing the color pink is a good step forward so hell yeah.

[@kwagmeijer26]

Speaking as a gender-illiterate trying to understand... Does Vaush's argument about neo-pronouns being like nicknames not apply to all pronouns? Do we not essentially nickname someone with "he/him" when they are a guy? Edit: just got to the response to that... I feel like he doesn't consider that some nicknames belong to very large groups, like the nickname "Junior" is a common nickname that a lot of people share with a specific meaning behind it.

[@ofanichan]

I think the reason why he thinks that neo pronouns are more nicknamey is probably because its very unique to you. Like you have to know the person before you realise they use xe/xir or any other. While nicknames like "junior" or something like "Tall girl" are names given to you for a specific reason. I guess in a way. Using a neo pronoun right now is sort of more like saying "Hey! Nice to meet you! Please call me Kwagmeijer"

[@AnimeFan9833]

Unique neo pronouns can only apply to a single person and you can't use or know about them unless that person tells you, exactly like a nickname. Normal pronouns can be used by anyone to refer to anyone, you see a person and you can say "I see them". If you call someone "Junior", that's because you see that they are young, they don't need to tell you and a junior could be anyone who fits the criteria. It's not really a nickname in the same way, since it's neither chosen nor unique.

[@scarlet8078]

Linguistically, those words ARE nicknames. There are only a few pronouns in the English language (he/ she/ it etc)

[@greanbeen2816]

@@scarlet8078 No they’re used as pronouns, that’s objectively their grammatical function

[@lallig8860]

we do it for social utility yes it's a broad term there is no utility in "that's Joe-Star-Bun-Moon over there" that's just a name

[@Magis_Ghast]

Vaush's (you) keeps making me giggle through this

[@MilesDashing]

Listening to this video while doing housework, I kept saying "Stop talking over people, Vaush!" After a while I realized he was talking to chat and the people on the panel couldn't hear him. Now I feel like apologizing even though he obviously couldn't hear me and probably will never read this comment. Maybe it'll give someone a laugh...

[@skylark6167]

I'm kind of struggling to understand the idea that gender has nothing to do with sex. Like I understand they aren't permanently attatched to one another, but if it's not built upon features of and ideas about the sexes, then what even is it? I think this might be where some of the TERF gender abolition stuff comes in, like if we decouple sex and gender, and dismantle gender too much, there's a risk (or hopeful chance if you're a TERF) that all the expectations and roles currently attached to gender would just get attached right back onto sex. This effectively reforms gender under a different name, but without the understanding we've build up that it's not rigid and inescapable. I do wonder if maybe gender as a classification and it's loose association with sex is necessary, as a sort of barrier and escape route between us and sex based expectations. Trans communities with a really strong belief that sex and gender are different are already getting really damn weird with their AMAB and AFAB expectations. If sex and gender are the same I'm permanently a man, and if they're entirely separate, I'm permanently AMAB which is just as bad, but it feels like there's a sweet spot in the middle where gender is connected to and more important than sex, where I can just be a woman.

[@TwentyNineJP]

I'm very open to any counterexamples to what follows. I know there are a great many cultures that have or have had more than two genders in the past, but I do not believe that *any* culture, no matter how isolated, has ever had zero genders. There always seems to be a gender corresponding to "man" (most males) and one corresponding to "woman" (most females), so I do believe that gender is as inherent to humanity as language is. One of, if not _the_ youngest natural language was spontaneously created by children who were denied exposure to language in the latter 1900s - Nicaraguan Sign Language. I think that at least two genders mapping roughly to sex are just as intrinsic to how our brains navigate the world, and the vacuum created by their erasure from culture would eventually and automatically be filled by a new gender system. Maybe the new system will have more genders and be less rigid, but I think gender is here to stay. That's my hypothesis.

[@DUWANGlai_kangyi]

"I'm permanently AMAB, which is just as bad." Uh, no? Being born a certain sex cannot be changed genetically and as such, as something a person cannot choose or change, that shouldn't be bad? As a trans person I think trans people should not feel shame for their sex. It's of course the fault of cis normative society, which keeps pushing ideas of shame and self-hatred onto genderqueer folks for their sex on all levels (genital, hormonal, chromosomal, etc). This is why I believe gender and sex have developed into completely different concepts: gender was indeed originated as the sociocultural expression of the expectations and norms imposed onto the sexes, and that is very important to remember, BUT nowadays it's just not the same anymore, or it shouldn't be. It can just be an issue of identity, of comfort, of how you want to be referred as. This is idealistic of course, but I do believe that there's nothing shameful or wrong about embracing maleness as a trans feminine person, femaleness as a trans masculine person or any of them as any queer gender identity.

[@skylark6167]

@@DUWANGlai_kangyi I don't mean always being XY, because that's a given, but the separation of sex and gender to such a degree that they're entirely unrelated seems to lead to people making the same inaccurate generalisations of men and women but even more inaccurately about "AMABs" and "AFABs" instead. I would like to emphasise, and for people to primarily see, my changeable characteristics over my unchangeable ones. So I think considering people based on gender identity and often closely tied current physical sex is much better than the far less closely tied and typically far less relevant sex at birth.

[@james_with_a_z]

It's crazy how much deeper of a conversation you can have when you're not debating the value of someone's life, but rather the future of that life

[@MrHodoAstartes]

I think the "pronoun" discussion is phrased in a way that only applies to English. When you move into languages that use either more or fewer pronouns it completely breaks down. Japanese essentially does not use pronouns and can talk for hours about a person without ever making a statement of their gender. Which is something they actually do play with in literature by directing or misdirecting assumptions the listener builds in absence of a direct statement. As such, there is not much need for new pronouns or other pronouns, but new nouns that allow the description of new gender concepts. On the other hand German is deeply bound into gendering all nouns at all times, meaning it becomes essential to the logic of every sentence to have gendered and case-sensitive pronouns which can essentially fully replace the nouns when talking about two things of different genders. You could describe the use of cutlery and only ever state the nouns once. The spoon being grammatically male, the fork female and the knife neuter can then be sufficiently spoken about relative to each other as "er, sie, es" and their respective cases without any confusion. Similarly, the current discourse is largely still struggling to accommodate women in any form of address because it forces a restatement in the female form, or a weird convention to circumvent it. But there is not even an attempt to try and get other possible genders into this because the system would force entirely new terminological conventions for every such new gender. So a set of pronouns, a form of address or appellation with a distinct ending form for any occupation or group affiliation you may hold (say student, clerk, worker, comrade) etc. Agreement of the general public to accept such additional complexity seems entirely impossible. As such the only way forward would need to be a singular gender-neutral convention to speaking of or addressing all humans or comparable persons. That satisfies a majority at least of the German population. Which would require a great linguistic revolution based on an ironclad, unassailable concept that sounds organic and makes things more convenient. I am not convinced it can be done.

[@bigpooper4156]

The person going "hmm... Yeah... Hmm.... Hmm... Yeah...." When vaush spoke kept making me laugh, dunno why

[@MrHodoAstartes]

Hm... the point about the lack of any well-written or proactive female characters in much of US media at least until a few years back is something I just realized I barely noticed, growing up as a boy. However, I did grow up in Germany, which gave me a number of very present female protagonists on TV programs. And I just noticed they were all from European and Japanese productions. So young girls on magical adventures were established as accepted somewhat earlier, I guess. And it might explaining the surprising number of women in LARP groups I personally know.

[@scarlet8078]

Tbh we have tons of female characters in US media for the past 40 years at least. Whether or not people think the shows were well-written is a matter of taste. US media is far more progressive than Japanese & (most) European media, although Germany is extremely similar to US in virtually every way (given the Protestant background etc)

[@adam346]

open question: if you get rid of gender expectation... are you just not removing the fundamental aspect of what a gender is? You cannot describe a gender without describing a set of expectations... Am I wrong? (P.S. I only caught the last hour and a bit of the panel so if they do touch on this aspect, a time-stamp would be nice).

[@seb267]

I feel like it’s more complicated than that personally.

[@namename6742]

i think the issue is that gender expectations are too narrow atm

[@thanattis]

that is Vaush's main argument in his first opening statement at 9:35. i don't think anyone ever really argues back against it or really even specifically addresses it much. in general, that segment, the first of the three segments, was the one with the least disagreement amongst the panelists, they sorta were mostly clarifying what they mean by "gender abolition" to people who may have misconceptions about it, so they kinda just gave their differently articulated reasons why "gender" and/or its roles/expectations were harmful, and that was Vaush's argument against gender itself as a category (under the assumed premise that obviously the roles/expectations are harmful)

[@Betweoxwitegan]

Not entirely, it is still used as a descriptor for perceived sex and as a sexual identifier, so although it may eliminate the expectations and gender roles, it does not eliminate gender itself.

[@bluephoenix2783]

does jack have a channel on KZbin? I really liked her arguments

[@soccerruben1]

Yes! I think it’s RiverBoatJack, and yes, she’s based and awesome-pilled!

[@lio5605]

what a change of pace from most panels so wholesome

[@NoodleBerry]

I experimented with neopronouns for a bit. Then I was like “fck it call me whatever you want” and now I go by any pronouns. Also they and you are similar in that it’s very easy to USE them both in singular and plural contexts, but can be difficult to INTERPRET in certain situations. I know I’ve gotten confused in both directions with both of them. Idk

[@Tiger47962]

Awesome panel and great conversation!!

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

I gotta say I got triggered right off the bat by the sheer number of rules imposed by the moderator of a supposedly chill, non-debate discussion. Sounded pretty anal.

[@pooter-zn2hm]

18:24 coordinated sip

[@noahspencer720]

As one of the trans people who has been a bit uneasy about the concept of gender abolition this panel was very helpful to help me understand it. I personally am very attached to a lot about my gender identity and for instance would never want to stop using she her pronouns, but I also totally understand the idea of down the line gender becoming nonexistent.

[@rowbot5555]

Yeah, we're not gonna come in and break down your door to steal your gender or anything 😘

[@TheNosnets]

Imo trans people suffer dysphoria etc due to feeling compelled to conform to society's idea of gender so in a world where gender doesn't exist the harmful aspects of gender conformity for trans people (feeling the need to have long hair because the women you compare yourselves to have long hair etc) would be lessened. Not to mention the added benefits of just making fashion and personal expression less rigid so the feminine men and masc women of the world can be themselves.

[@Betweoxwitegan]

​@@TheNosnetsIn a genderless world, percieved sex becomes a form of gender, it is nonsenical. Trans people will still identify with the majority sex characteristics in a genderless world

[@jasminecats1370]

I really appreciate this being uploaded. I missed the panel and wanted to see it. Very informative and I learned a lot

[@allysinlombard]

I am trans and very binary.

[@nolanstauffer9405]

You're binary? Translate this comment into binary code

[@bluephoenix2783]

@@nolanstauffer9405 sorry im nonbinary so I cant 😔

[@CPSPD]

@@bluephoenix2783 you don’t have any biney? that’s so poggers!

[@CPSPD]

you have loads of biney? that’s so poggers!

[@jazzpear8877]

Wow it's been only a minute of her talking and I already have a crush on Jack hahaha.

[@Jojo.R.Chipelago]

Vaush gotta talk about rm Brown vs Adam Carola! He's a fellow member of the muscular class, so Vaush is obligated to cover this.

[@tropezando]

Ueughueughuegh

[@Jojo.R.Chipelago]

@@tropezando boogablahga boogablahga

[@Tarumarugan]

Gotta get rid of racism first. Because even if you can’t discriminate against me on the basis of sexuality or gender, if you can still exclude me on race then it doesn’t matter what kind of black I am, I still can’t get in.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

But these are two seperate dimensions that are both important in their own right.

[@Haverlock]

For my part when I hear neo pronouns I get a feeling I can only describe as that feeling of seeing somebody wear Spock ears in public or say we're performing the black sacrament from the elder scrolls in a work meeting. For example Fae/Faer is just... That's purple prose for fairies. I can't fully wrap my brain around somebody using that as an identifier without unconsciously grouping them with otherkin, adult sonic fans, and the brain addled goblins who admin Star Wars extended universe wikis.

[@Freyaundergrowth]

Honestly the best way to look at it is just as a nick name like fae wants to go to the market

[@Haverlock]

@@Freyaundergrowth Fair enough. I'll respect them and use them. I even understand xe/xer to an extent. It's just there's a point where these pronouns can get a bit silly and pretentious in a way that doesn't sit right.

[@bandamani]

i'm someone who kind of gets what you mean, i also sometimes just hate the options of he/she/they we are given. i genuinely hate them all sometimes and realised then that being able to make your own which you are comfortable with makes so much sense. but still i use they/them right now. and since i get called she/her a lot i've been considering buying a pronoun badge cuz i'm too awkward to correct people but god that makes me feel so cringe and i can't escape that feeling.

[@Haverlock]

@@bandamani I can see how it might make someone more comfortable. I've probably just got a few things to work through on this whole gender business. Also I'm sorry you feel like the badge would make you feel cringey. Probably doesn't mean much from a stranger but I think you oughta. Ain't nothing to be embarrassed about when you're trying your best to fight for how you want to be seen.

[@bandamani]

@@Haverlock yeah we probably all have a lot to work through lol, i've gotten through a lot of crap since the days of sjw cringe comps but still have a long way to go, that's probably partly what's making me find getting a badge so awkward. but thanks, i'm seriously considering it, if anything it's the fear of how others will perceive me that puts me off rather than just the thought of me wearing it myself. If I was with a group of trans/gnc people all the time I'd feel completely okay wearing it although I most likely wouldn't even need to with those people anyways since they are more conscious about their use of pronouns.

[@elysahatestostudy9364]

"I'm busting out a new gender theory" Welcome to Alden's Gender Conundrum

[@reverberateddreams7958]

well this is fresh of the rails, feels good to be early

[@MasterOfBaiter]

This was really well organized. I'm surprised

[@katyyulig]

Why does this Bloodborne streamer keeps getting invited to panels?

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

Tokenism to get the gamer-gender represented

[@teapotsoup2851]

Wow. I'm enby and have a frog tattoo, so thanks for seeing my soul shoe

[@CPSPD]

Based and frogpilled

[@yudodis333]

“Christopher Columbus was a gender abolitionist”... lol that was actually really funny

[@Swerg20]

I think that you all put way to much value into gender expression and gender roles... for the most part nobody cares about that stuff anymore and we keep moving more forwards in that regard. People with gender dysphoria are mostly in it because their body gives them distress over incorrect primary and secondary sex characteristics. We play into gender roles and gender expression to help alleviate that dysphoria because our brains are kind of stupid and easy to trick at times. Just because someone is gender non conforming or has a unique identity doesn't make them a whole new gender. They are just that person and they act like they do. I an fine with non binary but it's different from someone having gender dysphoria. I get that some NB have dysphoria but the larger amount claim to not anymore, they largely speak about their expression in terms of their identity. A lot of these groups continue to muddy the waters by claiming the trans moniker and it really is erasing the medical component because when you say trans it can now mean a million different things. I'm mtf and I have a bit of a masculine expression still. I've had tons of these types try to convince me that it makes me non binary or other terms just because my expression isn't always a 1 to 1 with my gender identity. Again you all are thinking way to deeply about this stuff. I'm making my body more into a woman's and I function better within woman social structures for the most part. It doesn't matter how I dress or act though, I am a woman now.

[@edenlippmann3745]

Ah, the “I don’t have a problem with those people, BUT...” argument. It’s so rare to see it in the wild these days.

[@Swerg20]

@@edenlippmann3745 is that the core of your rebuttal? Sorry but there are fundamental disagreements I have with a majority of non binary people on what it means to be trans. I just want a label that I can say hey I am this and people can understand without having to further break it down. Especially when I find that a lot of the people I am referring to have a very surface level understanding of gender when talking to them yet they demand to be the poster child of the trans community and constantly talk over gender dysphoric people. Why is it ok for them to define gender but when I speak up for my definitions that I am told to just shut up? I didn't say they weren't valid, I said there is a difference that should be acknowledged. Then rabid push back I receive just tells me that the individuals I am referring to are relying on my identification to feel valid. Why do they need to piggy back off of my trans identity but are unable to stand on their own? I like that a lot on this panel seem to mostly agree with my points but the vast majority of people claiming that identity seem to not and are very hostile to anyone who disagrees, especially when we can be allies.

[@rowbot5555]

@socially unacceptable "Teet yeet" I've never heard it in this context before but it fits so well

[@jazzpear8877]

Sounds like you may be in some really nice social circles to believe that people don't care about gender expression and gender roles. That certainly isn't the reality for most people. The word Transgender was literally coined to include what we now call nonbinary people, specifically the ones that don't want medical transition! The white stripe on the trans flag is for nonbinary people! But yeah the people trying to tell you you're nonbinary just because your expression isn't hyper-femme are way off base. Personally, I function better by denying those social structures entirely, and looking and feeling androgynous does alleviate dysphoria for me, even though mine is pretty mild. I also do think though the characterization of nonbinarism as a third, whole gender identity that must be equal in every way to man/woman doesn't quite get the point. That's why I can't stand when people call me "an enby". No, I am a *person* that is *all*. Also, most nonbinary people I know who don't want any medical or social transition don't really like calling themselves trans. In fact they get QUITE upset if you imply they are. More of us take hormones than you'd probably assume by our appearance. Also, I think people's main contingency on the dysphoria thing is the definition of dysphoria. And it can be harder to tell that you have it when it seems contradictory. (IE, having dysphoria about my chest but feeling good about having feminine-looking legs) Don't forget that being nonbinary is a sentence to be misgendered constantly by almost everyone forever. It's impossible to "pass" as nonbinary, I just want to be seen as a person rather than a man or a woman, and yet, because of the world we live in, I have to *live* with that social dysphoria literally forever. I'm out to pretty much everyone now yet the only people I can actually get to use they/them for me consistently are my two partners who I live with. There's nothing I can do to escape it, the best I can hope for is confusion. But like, yknow, nonbinary people aren't a monolith and I think this characterization is way off base.

[@dancedagondance861]

Trans means you don't identify with your AGAB. We can identify as trans as much as we want and we don't care how you feel about that as a binary trans person.

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

I find the neopronoun discussion really interesting to think about. As some who likes writing pronouns such as he/ she/ and they always make distinguishing the actions of two characters in a scene and contrasting them really easy, but as someone who wants gender abolition, what does a future with writings look like if I’m using they for everybody. Is it like how we use I? I think it would be even less broad, at that point it would little to no utility. So what’s the answer? Creating pronouns to use not associated with the sexual characteristics you were born with? What does the book of 2222 look like if we’re survive the climate disaster?

[@justicewilliams8095]

First off, it's an insanely unreasonable condition to meet, surviving the impending climate disaster. 😝 In all seriousness, I'm also with you. I hadn't actually thought about what the implications would be linguistically of non-gendered pronouns. Like, the idea of exclusively using they/them in novels... It is a foreign idea to the English language. It's probably just as foreign as the idea of using neo pronouns in novels/writings, if not more foreign. Thank you for bringing this up, I've been having a lot of thoughts about gender abolition, particularly as a trans woman, and determining my feelings on that. You've given me one more thing to meditate on. Much love 💕

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

@@justicewilliams8095 Much love back sister, good luck with the meditation

[@imme265]

I don’t think gender abolition necessarily implies only using they/them pronouns. I think that instead of men, women and NBs, it would just be people who use he/him, people who use she/her and people who use they/them, without immediately assigning a gender to those pronouns.

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

@@imme265 ​ @Imme Zander Doesn't that still imply the existence of gender, just separated from sex?

[@Kosithegod]

With neo-pronouns I think make one more set of non specific/gender neutral pronouns if they/them doesn’t do it for you because making a new set for every gender expression and expecting everyone to memorise them is a little ridiculous. Maybe it’s just cos of my bad memory but imagining a world where I can offend someone by forgetting to call them xim instead of zim gives me anxiety. I barely remember names as is.

[@aapocalypseArisen]

yes this still requires individuals to conform to you you know? you can think its ridiculous but neo-pronouns are real and important

[@Kosithegod]

@@aapocalypseArisen I didn’t say neo pronouns are ridiculous, I said making a new set for every possible way gender could express itself in an individual is. Pronouns exist explicitly for simplicity so at that point we might is well just scrap them and only ever use names.

[@aapocalypseArisen]

@@Kosithegod that is such horse shit pronouns are useful (and in the case of neo-pronouns fun as hell) regardless of what arbitary restrictions you try to make up so that we stop creating new ones and using words in a more meaningful and personal way just because you have problems with trans people in general doesnt mean we have to burn the entire linguistic concept of the pronoun to the ground lol we trans people can figure this stuff out easy and keep up with and help each other with them your transphobia is transparent 0_0

[@fakenamebunchonumbers]

Timestamps: 19:55 YOINK!

[@sunnijo]

It’s nice to listen to a nuanced discussion panel for once. Great job to everyone

[@apt-get2587]

Honest question, if gamer is a gender can furry be a gender?

[@sephidude123]

My identity is Tech Priest.

[@samuelconner7114]

The flesh is temporary, metal is forever. Praise the Omnisiah

[@torcaace]

But you have a Salamanders pfp (i assume the scales are salamander ones). You must be an imposter or more specifically, Alpharius

[@sephidude123]

@@torcaace We are all Alpharius.

[@CrimsonOptics]

Jack is so considerate. She seems fun to hang out with.

[@tieflingcorpse9817]

gender identity is psychological. you cant abolish a psychological concept even if you wanted too. even if there were valid reasons too (which there arent in respect to gender)

[@devlin4795]

Like what you want is inherent but what category you feel you fit into as a result of that may not be

[@tieflingcorpse9817]

@@devlin4795 what?

[@devlin4795]

@@tieflingcorpse9817 gender as in what you enjoy (presentation, language, roles, etc) is inherent. Gender as categories may not be.

[@tieflingcorpse9817]

@@devlin4795 its the exact opposite tho. gender identity is psychological its inherent. gender interpretations are social and therefore not inherent

[@devlin4795]

@@tieflingcorpse9817 we're literally agreeing

[@lolwhatidk]

can anyone put timestamps for when funny shit happens? seems like 90% of this is just standard gender blah blah crap we've seen 100 times

[@AR15ORIGINAL]

"90% of this is just standard gender blah blah crap we've seen a hundred times" is merely a description of life tho /hyp /j

[@nevreiha]

@@AR15ORIGINAL based and redpilled observation

[@majesticskydiver5784]

I thought Hans' time paddles were him rating peoples arguments

[@bekkayya]

conure won the dennis twitter name war in this debate

[@duckhawkninja3614]

AS the owner of four turtles I feel the need to correct you on your claim that reptiles have no sex differences. The females are usual much bigger than males in reptile species. in slider turtles such as the ones I own males have longer claws than females as well.

[@NoodleBerry]

Trans girl comes up shaven, most pink fancy dress, pink sparkly makeup that took an hour, pro hair do “You look very gender neutrally good” Best social skills

[@NoodleBerry]

I HEARD BUFFY. I MUST NOW GO WATCH BUFFY

[@NoodleBerry]

YES COME OUT VIA GAME SHOW

[@EvilGuacamoleGaming]

I'm amused that most people have pronouns after their name and technically Vaush does too... it's just '(you)'. Like 'My pronouns are you/your'.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Why not let people hold on their idea or conceptation of gender? It only becomes an issue when its enforced and hegemonic. If that's not the case than I don't see the issue if someone believes they are a X, Y, Z. Let the samurai remain a samurai if its so important to them. Same with the legionnaire. The end goal should be the removal of all sociental expectation and the allowance of people to do whatever they want.

[@dancedagondance861]

That's... the point. That's what gender abolition/liberation is about. The people who like it as it is can still identify that way, but the people who don't have room to express themselves without stigma.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

@@dancedagondance861 I thought was the main difference between the two. Abolition wants to abolish the concept of gender, seeing that as optimal for humanity, while liberation wants to end hegemonic expressions of gender and allow for different identities. I'm probably wrong though.

[@dancedagondance861]

@@SuperPal-tr3go The terms, as they're used in this panel, are interchangeable.

[@QuantumFluxable]

enbies love frogs because frogs can change their biological sex :) coming from an enby/genderfluid person which is me

[@rowbot5555]

I just like them because they're neat

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Vaush constantly talking to his audience while the others on the panel are making their points is incredibly infuriating and also pretty disrespectful. Just stfu and let us hear the arguments ffs.

[@user-nh1lf1hz3k]

Just commenting for engagement!)

[@etabiansosin]

I haven't seen Denims made any videos in a while.

[@joeyjose727]

Videos meaning debates/round tables like this?

[@etabiansosin]

@@joeyjose727 I'm saying that she hasn't made any videos on her channel in awhile.

[@Dionysus56]

OBS was having a stroke wtf

[@tejashdasgupta1840]

MAHBLURBIRD dropping a tactical N word at 1:46:00

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Neopronouns make since to me if they aligned to some personality trait you are really into or cultural allegiance. I'm really brave and I consider that the highest of personality and being so I would prefer to referred using Bre/Brev pronouns or something. I dunno. Not sure if I'm making since.

[@MasterOfBaiter]

It makes absolute sense it just doesn't seem natural in current society. We already have that to show respect towards authority (like your highness) certain languages like German even have designated pronouns. The difference here is that people are trying to advocate for pronouns to be none exclusive. They want pronouns to be universal.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

@@MasterOfBaiter So mean using neopronouns because they don't mean anything or related to anything be it gender or status or culture?

[@MasterOfBaiter]

@@SuperPal-tr3go the hope of neo pronouns is that they can be universal. So that you can refer to someone as an entity without prescribing characteristics. Instead of he/she a pronoun that's gender neutral to just mean the person you are talking about.

[@ellagage1256]

Vaush is playing Isaac? Based

[@Kekktye]

Both making a mockery of gender and also being sincere in your use of it? Do these people understand what mockery means?

[@PersonCalledErin]

Watching this lampgender-pilled me lay/lampself Jokes aside this was a lovely and supremely civil panel. Appreciate all the awesome peeps on this.

[@soccerruben1]

It’s a shame that Malcolm was the only who shit-talked Vaush behind his back after stream and not to his face. He has VDS.

[@ktc227]

I think I've unlearned a lot during this convo. Tons of unfinished sentences and inside comments. Like you know...yeah! Why are gender roles and expectations bad? What is gender abolition? How does abolition work in the real world? Roman legionnaire were soliders. They wouldn't care if Rome fell centuries into the future. Samurai were masculine warriors ( a job) of the Shogun. Some Shogun had female warriors (Onna-bugeisha). Men and women both trained in martial arts. Men aren't taught that boys have no emotions. They are taught not to be overwhelmed by emotions. Firefly was just dope. "I am a leaf in the wind..."

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

"Why are gender roles and expectations bad?" A lot of this was addressed by this panel but the basic idea is that traditional gender roles are severely limiting for a huge portion of people in society because they put people in boxes and more or less force a person to act in a certain way (based on a category they belong to) which often is not in line with their authentic self, and I don't think I need to explain how damaging that is. "Men aren't taught that boys have no emotions. They are taught not to be overwhelmed by emotions." Come on now, let's not be dishonest here. You're being way too charitable. You know it's not about teaching "moderation". They're taught that it's an absolute no-go for a "real" man to genuinely show emotions in public, especially ones involving vulnerability because it makes you "look weak". The only emotion that is consistently deemed societally acceptable for men to openly display is anger. Men are absolutely socialized to be emotionally closed off and we see the consequences of this everywhere. "Man up" "men don't cry/complain" etc etc. Do I need to explain to you why bottling up your emotions and putting on a constant facade of stoicism and strength can be extremely harmful?

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

The point about Romans and Samurais was to highlight a social category that used to be of immense value and importance to the people holding them at the time, but were dispensed with anyway. The panelists could have chosen any other category to make the same point so your nitpicking has no bearing on the validity of the arguments being made.

[@colt6320]

3:12 Somebody be Isaacin, booyeah

[@Meschifyify]

this is beautiful

[@tareke586]

This is gonna be good

[@gazhollister1602]

Gender ought to be more fluid but abolition seems a bit much idk

[@disky1784]

Why do you say that

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Most people's gender is not fluid on short timescales, that's why we have a word for when that isn't the case.

[@gazhollister1602]

@@PlatinumAltaria That's what I'm trying to say, keep some lables/categories that might be useful to people but these should be open and a spirit of fluidity throughout the spectrum ought to exist.

[@jimmybalzac6021]

Cowardice.

[@nothingbutgianttrees1995]

22:20 huHUH xD 25:14 ?shoebehave?¿ 26:10 I can't believe Christopher Columbus was a gender abolishinist 27:10 No. 31:50 pbs, a map of gender diverse cultures 32:20 and the most womanly woman was your mom 35:21 newborn heads feel like t!dd!es 37:48 ancient greece was full of those 4chan green text posts

[@uncomfortabletruth5915]

Hi, my name is "I am" my pro nouns are "Lord and Savior"

[@jasminecats1370]

Firefly is still awesome

[@veggiemonkie5041]

Me, just realizing i need to watch more lumi..

[@RomoFett_]

Vaush: I totally respect neo-pronouns...I think that anyone who uses them are children and are harming real trans people, but I toooooottally respect them.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I can't tell if this is a meme or if it's just pretty bad listening comprehension but that sounds like the opposite of what Vaush actually said.

[@AnimeFan9833]

Anyone who uses them or anyone who pretends like they're somehow a trans rights issue?

[@isak6498]

modCheck time stamp gods?

[@jojodelacroix]

Whyd you seem so bothered by this? Like you ended it by saying you think you did yhe best you could. What sort of shortcoming was there? Whyd you seem so hot and bothered by the neopronouns discussion?

[@Sergio-nb4hj]

Time stamps?

[@whatsagoodusername823]

មួយសម្រាប់ក្បួនដោះស្រាយ

[@tacoman9696]

Vauwsh/Voosh

[@voxomnes9537]

Lots of distracting background talking and sophisticated concern trolling by Vaush on this panel.

[@allyforbes8690]

not being able to read the chat at all 😢

[@tylerhackner9731]

Based panel

[@elbownio5820]

Vorsh

[@rowbot5555]

Um aktually it's spledd Vaucsh

[@elbownio5820]

@@rowbot5555 Vork