Bendix-Hyde Second Model Prototype Carbine

/ forgottenweapons
In late 1940, the US military opened a competition for what would become the M1 Carbine - a rifle that needed to use the .30 Carbine cartridge and weigh no more than 5 pounds (2.27kg). No fewer than 9 companies and designers entered the first round of competition in April 1941, including John Garand, Val Browning, Eugene Reising, Auto-Ordnance, and George Hyde. Hyde's entry was one of the best performers, and just a few changes to it were requested.
A second round of trials was held in September 1941, and this is one of the 5 Hyde carbines made for that second test. Unfortunately for Hyde, while he had made the changes requested, he had also managed to make the gun less accurate, less reliable, and more difficult to disassemble than his first version. Winchester would ultimately win the competition, with a rifle designed in an amazing 34 days.

[@BurnTheNuance]

Man, your content never gets old. Guns are the only subject that me and my father can talk about, he was born in the 40's in Georgia, I was born in the 90's in Oregon, and anything that can get us talking is welcomed. We actually share a rather large personal collection of pre-1900 firearms and we're always looking for more. So thanks Ian for all your hard work, and for giving me and my father something to talk about, ha.

[@sweatymcsweatyy2721]

+laszu its not that strange tbh

[@jimhans1]

laszu if his father was born in '49 and he was born in '90, then his dad would only be 41 when he was born.......

[@tyomies6168]

Cool story bro.

[@chadbarrett3545]

The dear heads look like they are staring at you looking for vengeance.

[@MrBioniclefan1]

lol too funny and you are right

[@wompa_1]

Nice!

[@JustIn-op6oy]

I beg to differ. The deer are intently observing as gun Jesus does his thing.

[@wallaroo1295]

It reminds me of my old Crossman pellet rifle...

[@executivebexley252]

Crossman made awesome pump up air rifles!!

[@BenDover-mj7tn]

I was about to put that same thing in comments till i read yours An yes it does does it not lol

[@JennyGormanRitter]

@@executivebexley252 they still do too! My 760 finally shit the bed after owning it and using it avidly for 9 years. To be fair, it still works I just lack a stock for it at the moment...

[@robertsloan2877]

Illuminati confirmed

[@psirider]

really love the color the parkerizing takes on these old guns

[@heathcliffe8446]

This is pretty much my favorite firearms channel. So much to learn. Well done.

[@BULLOCK1973]

Vids have come a long way, your doing a great job. I love the history of the guns you present. Keep up the great work.

[@nicholasmaugeri759]

Very interesting. The M1 Carbine is my favorite rifle of WW2. Interesting in seeing one of the rifles that was up for competition. Thank You Ian!

[@AnyFukkingNameJesus]

These trials guns never stop amazing me. Thank you Ian. This is by far the best channel on youtube.

[@Pocahonkers]

I've just read your articles about the first model, second model and the 1944 carbine. Interestingly the things they removed from the first model to the second model were added again in the 1944 carbine model. Along with that quick-change barrel stuff. Really a rollercoaster of emotions in these three models.

[@JohnLeePedimore]

Did the US military ever try to adapt the .30 Carbine cartridge to a handgun?The case length is exactly the same as a .357 magnum.It seems like S&W could have easily chambered a K or N frame revolver for it.The M1917 was certainly a success.There were actually 2 civilian handguns chambered for it.The Ruger Blackhawk and the AMT Automag III.In fact I saw an AR upper in .30 Carbine the other day.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+JohnLeePedimore Not that I am aware of, although there may have been some test at some point.

[@BurnTheNuance]

Really? That would be an interesting Ar upper. Hmm.

[@merlemorrison482]

+JohnLeePedimore Don't forget that TC also chambered their single shot Contender for this round.

[@hazzardlobotomy7904]

Well my name's John Lee Pettimore Same as my daddy and his daddy before You hardly ever saw Grandaddy down here He only come to town about twice a year

[@joshuagee6717]

While it would be interesting probably not it would be tough on a blowback system and a revolver would be pretty much obsolete being the ammo cpacity was already getting higher

[@cmh6122]

Thought I was the shit when I could disassemble an M-60. Amazed at the level of understanding and respect you have for firearms.

[@atheniannikitas5912]

before I watched this it really looked like an m1carbine with a tompson and a shotgun had a baby

[@THR33SIXX3MPYR]

The op rod reminds me of the BAR.

[@THR33SIXX3MPYR]

At least cosmetically, in its assembled state.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

The locking block kinda reminds me of the P38, but turned upside down.

[@MrSebfrench76]

i am always amazed by the talent of this Ian. He's so different from the others so-alled guns specialists. Plus : for a frog like me, he speaks a perfectly understable English.

[@imallearsru]

You have such fantastic videos, history, specs, disassembly, component description and good presentation skills. Looking forward to many more, if you're ever looking for a topic, there are so many versions and variants of certain guns that comparing them might be an idea. As an example, I ordered a 7.62 Galil years ago and was quite happy with it. The gun was based on the Rk 62 which was based on the AK 47, which is manufactured in ?? countries, many without a license to do so. That one gun is a channel by itself lol.

[@Blueswailer]

The Bendix-Hyde Carbine sounds like something out of Shadowrun. Looks kind of strange but I like it. Thank you for the informative videos! Very much enjoyed this installment as well.

[@TeaAndBullets]

A fellow Shadowrunner, eh? Not exactly the first place a I'd expect to find one.

[@wingracer1614]

+Cat418 another one here

[@spacemanmoe5622]

Thank you Ian. I would love to see more M1 carbine prototype rifles. One that I would love to see is a auto ordnance recoil operated version. Thanks again.

[@chuckcochran8599]

Without the use of plastics and aluminum, which were really in their infancy development wise, that 5 lb weight limit would have been nearly impossible to meet I would speculate.

[@kevinbaker6168]

Ian, very interesting. Externally it reminds me of many of the 22 semi-auto rifles and carbines that came out in the 50's & 60's. Most obvious difference is blow back operation instead of gas operated, with no locking lugs.

[@mattdickson2]

OK so I just looked up the original model of this gun and my gods it looks like the dirty love child of a Thompson and a Stoner 63A carbine

[@jimkey920]

Very interesting Carbine. The wedge locking system seems complicated to manufacture. If time constraints were nor so critical. this weapon may have been perfected. The Me Carbine is, without a doubt superior. Thank

[@drakehosking8628]

I’m gonna be honest that looks like a really slick rifle and it looks very well put together and finished

[@kogn5338]

Trial weapons are always so interesting, would love to see any korobov trial guns some day on the channel.

[@jobr2394]

The weapon has a receiver and bolt system designed on the Thompason and Blish system in its basic design and Looks. The Trigger housing, Charginghandle and design and the operating design are a hybrid Browning BAR and Garand Design. The forearm is a Merge in Design from the BAR and a Thompson. The bolts locking system is similar to the Blish locking system inverteThe Trigger housing definitely gets its design from the BAR. Sights are an Early 1927 Thompson Type system. The firearm was brought together and designed off of existing designs of the time. Thank you for showing this rifle. Like many others, it shows how most weapons are designed within the existing technology and knowledge for the time. Many of these features are still in use today.

[@jagx234]

+Forgotten Weapons I very much enjoy the stories behind the guns you give in these videos. Pretty awesome job? hobby? to have. I'd love to watch a video on the Dardick sometime!

[@toxicmatrix1337]

Feel like you should have a big bottle of Jager in the background.

[@greightaa8791]

Well done. I like the information and your presentation. Great job

[@missouriaviator8871]

Looks like a Thompson and a BB gun had a baby.

[@mattdickson2]

or the Thompson and an early concept drawing of an AR

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

+Matt Dickson I was thinking a Thompson and a Browning SA-22.

[@mattdickson2]

+Rock Island Auction Company that too

[@BurnTheNuance]

+Rock Island Auction Company Yes, that describes it very well.

[@therugburnz]

MissouriAviator. Yeah, it does have that 1973 Cross man PumpMaster look.

[@Kloick]

Your background is looking much better this time!

[@sithompson74]

Really like the way that locks. Quite ingenious design and shame it didn't work out

[@vaclav_fejt]

Thank you for using SI units for us poor Europeans, I am kind of getting used to imperial, but this was a really nice gesture.

[@ellsworthm.toohey7657]

metric is the only real measurment system ! dont waste your time learning imperial crap that no smart people uses !

[@vaclav_fejt]

Ellsworth M. Toohey No smart people USE.

[@ellsworthm.toohey7657]

Wow, a grammar nazi !

[@vaclav_fejt]

Ellsworth M. Toohey You or me? Look, SI system is better in my opinion, as would be any based on the base you are counting in. (Base 10 isn't the best, imho, 12, 16 or even eight would be better, but what can you do). But imperial is still in use and switching suddenly to SI system would be really expensive and maybe dangerous. I has to go gradually. In the meantime, get used to it. I was shocked when I found out plumbers in my country, in the heart of Europe, still use inch based threads. Backward compatibility is a bitch.

[@beaublackford3697]

Smart people? You mean for the people who's country hasn't put a man on the moon?

[@kenhelmers2603]

Nice design, thanks for sharing it with us.

[@laflux]

Welp First Vanguard guy here, its the Cooper Carbine there.

[@TheGrandslam89]

"It went through the reliability dust test really well, it liked it" Carbine confirmed M

[@forestcampbell8962]

I wonder how many people will actually comprehend this joke.

[@terranaxiomuk]

Wow that gun seems surprisingly modern and reliable. Normally i have a gander and then skip to another of your video's but this gun really interested me. Shame i live in the UK lol.

[@MrMexicanarmy]

god, i miss this show :/

[@troy9477]

The also rans are always interesting. I love my Inland 1943, but i suspect these sights are a little more practical and more rugged. Also, the separate stock and forend should be easier and faster to produce than a long 1 piece stock and a handguard. And of course that handguard could be recontoured and shortened and lightened a bit. I kinda like the gas tappet idea vs this long, fairly complex op rod. We know that the op rod can be a little troublesome, subject tio bending, and not real tolerant of different ammo. I need to take my Carbine apart to refresh my memory on some things......Great video as always. Thank you

[@ItsAlwaysRusty]

That looks to have needed a lot of machining for a wartime weapon..

[@josephddd117]

Looks like a BAR and Thompson Hyrbid.

[@stalbertjocelyn]

could you use the tip of the front sling swivel to unlock the side plate?

[@pewpewTN]

It's so wild that they actually asked for the pistol grip & full auto to be removed. The original Fudds.

[@57WillysCJ]

What is amazing is Winchester and other companies like Bantam coming up with a product in less than 60 days from start to finish. I doubt it could happen today.

[@nickburnett501]

Really sweet looking firearm

[@drmaudio]

What an interesting action. It is kind of good looking, in it's own way too.

[@texasdeeslinglead2401]

I like how you have a really respectable set up for your talk in this video. looks kinda like rock island likes having you do these videos.love the horses on each side of you , lol , jk.but they give good ambiance

[@crazyfvck]

I really like the simple rear sight on this carbine :)

[@asteroidrules]

Was the prototype Reising submitted the .30 carbine version of their SMG?

[@therugburnz]

Hey Ian, yes we mostly agree about the set it at the factory rear sight, certainly on a light rifle in .30 carbine. The army( I don't know about other forces) had and still has AFAIK a "Don't Kentucky it" policy. I'm from Kentucky and did learn from Uncle Grandaddy , soooooo.

[@THE_YIGLER]

that is one funky looking trigger!

[@AlanH450]

just a thought for disassembly, to push the pins in, rather than use a bullet or pin punch it looked like the sling swivel had a a pin end after the thread that might have worked, seen you do similar things before on other guns. Great video though Ian, once again.

[@titaniumdiveknife]

3:15 Thank you Mr Ian.

[@CPerry-yq1fj]

Was the small pin like end of the front swivel screw that retained the hand guard small enough to push in the side plate you used the punch on ?

[@TaurusSI]

Could you push the pins with the sling screw?

[@AlanH450]

+TaurusSI bugger, i just posted a comment on the same thought

[@TaurusSI]

***** Great minds think alike... If we were correct :D

[@KickyFut]

@@TaurusSI I know this is years later, but comparing the sizes, no, the sling screw was way too big to push in those disassembly pins!

[@Nonii-92]

Why exactly didn't they like the pistol grip? Isn't pistol grip more effective in guns meant for military purposes? What is your take on this Ian?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+Nonii 92 I suspect the choice was based on long experience with traditional stocks, and I prefer the pistol grip.

[@RedXlV]

Nonii 92 The people drawing up the military requirements aren't necessarily smart.

[@nehcrum]

+Nonii 92 Never forget the importance of recognition and tradition. This was a carbine, a rifle, and therefore it should have a rifle-stock and rifle grip. Only pistols and SMGs had pistol-grips.... Same thing with the BAR, which in other versions was given a pistol-grip, but not the version the US military used.

[@MarvinCZ]

Like others said, a rifle stock for a rifle was just how it was done in the U.S. military. Just look at the M14 rifle.

[@donosolianos5323]

you da man ian

[@mauricematla1795]

Is there a first model still in existance that you know of ?

[@Hawk1966]

That op rod cover that slides back and pins in place looks like it would get bent SO easily. In a fox hole or just under pressure to get the weapon stripped and clean especially if if flip it over to pull the trigger assembly.

[@ThomasRonnberg]

The design seems a lot like a improved version of the garand/m14. If this design had been chosen it could easily have survived the test of time, especially with the introduction of detachable scopes. It's all sealed, and has a solid receiver. Which is basically what we're trying to do today with the kalashnikov system and the m1/m14 systems.

[@wingracer1614]

+Thomas Ronnberg Nope. May look similar but functions totally different which is the problem. Wedge lock systems like this one has are just not as accurate, durable and serviceable as a rotating bolt with front locking lugs is. That's why nearly everything today that's not blowback uses a rotating bolt.

[@ThomasRonnberg]

+wingracer 16 You're right, there's no question about that, but in terms of the conceptual design, this rifle is completely sealed and closer to a modern amalgamation than the m1/m14 designs. It appreciates a wider variety of modern aspects than the m14/m1 systems. If a company today were to design a fresh .30cal carbine concept they would more likely lean towards this design than the m1 carbide we see today. Of course with a rotating bolt. The reason this is true is because the majority of the most advanced modern rifles being produced are completely sealed designs. The m1 system is great, but it simply lacks too many desired requirements for crawling through tough conditions.

[@elijaah81]

simply awsome. thanks

[@Joepopa12]

Is the end of the sling swivel small enough to push that pin in? it looks almost as if it is the intended purpose.

[@anter176]

Silly question but the sling swivel screw would be too large to push those pins?

[@30calPartridge]

One of the first things I thought of was "looks like it would do reasonably well in the mud test." haha

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

Very interesting one here. Mechanically speaking, I think it's kinda cool.

[@andrewince8824]

I guess that in the end Winchester had an advantage over the Bendix-Hyde in that they already had a great rifle in military use and so only had to adapt some of the mechanisms and meet the weight/caliber requirements. They also knew exactly what standards were expected.

[@That-Guy5643]

unrelated but the wooden head mounts in the background go hard

[@THR33SIXX3MPYR]

Ian, are any of the other prototypes from the competition known to still exist? You piqued my curiosity and I did a little googling, but all I can seem to find are links to the designers' other, more well known guns.

[@tinitoysinatra]

Great history!

[@harrisment2812]

that trigger actually seems way ahead of its time, as flat and semi flat triggers are all the rage in competitive shooting

[@michaeljoyce3153]

I've never liked a gun so much lol it reminds me of a big 22 and I really really want one. Do you have the specs and blueprints by any chance?

[@kennieminski7080]

Great video as always, but I have to: Ian got run over by a reindeer, walkin' home from Karl's house Christmas eve.

[@b-conn6624]

It's a shame out of all those designs that came around that time and only one ever got mass produced which is the one the US decided to use but I wish there had been more commercial production of these others. I'd like to own and shoot many of these designs.

[@edbecka233]

At least they put the front sling swivel in the right place!

[@jackschwinkendorf677]

That carbine looks exactly like the BB gun I got my little brother for his birthday last year!

[@Koefti]

hallelujah he did it ... could you bring in more often the metrical units (except for caliber of course) its allways a little bit hard calculating in your head how much it is in a system youre used to and also listen to you Ian.

[@iotaje1]

Could it be that the punch used for disassembly was to be found on the magazine buttplate?

[@TrinidadJamesWoods]

why was the ordinance department opposed to the pistol grip? I don't see the downside.

[@johnwizeman3894]

Makes you wonder how things could've been different if this one had continued to do as well as it had in the beginning. Unfortunately it did not. What might have been?

[@TheAtomicEwok]

Will you ever do a video on the M2 Hyde smg?

[@basp-ef7jx]

Rule of acquisitions 34, war is good for business.

[@Regolith86]

That's a "nice short receiver"? And here I was thinking it looked like it was overly long. It'd be interesting to see it next to a stripped M1 Carbine.

[@rho1581]

You would think they would design the tip of that sling stud small enough to push those dis-assembly pins.

[@Alabastor_Twob]

I like the way the locking works, but the trigger mechanism looks like it would be fairly easy to convert to full auto.

[@ToastyMozart]

+JimJamtheSailor Makes sense, since the first version was select-fire.

[@Beavereaver]

Imagine that it's an alternate reality and all the guns that were adopted by our military throughout history did not get adopted and instead the ones that did not get adopted in our reality got adopted.

[@geckohunter7277]

sandy ray it would be cool to see how war would have gone if we adopted leverguns. The only times I think the best choice was picked was probably the grand and m16 along with its variants.

[@jolujo5842]

Overall that's a beautifully designed gun. Sad they didnt continue developement for sale in the "Ranch Rifle" market domestically.

[@knechtor5648]

thanks for your concern Ian, but we europeans still use pounds among other old measurements, like centner which curiously is 50kg in germany instead of a hundred. ;)

[@CAMSLAYER13]

as someone from the UK I have trouble putting pounds and shit into context

[@knechtor5648]

CAMSLAYER13 yea a pound sterling doesn't even weigh 1 pound smh

[@100GTAGUY]

Is this the same Bendix company that also made aircraft parts from about WW2 up to the current day? If so that's pretty cool, never knew the company dabbled in firearms as well. Edit: never mind I got too excited about this before watching the video which addresses this later on.

[@tritowns]

Nice looking firearm, looks well made

[@fynetuneyrgf]

I actually think it is kind of a nice looking rifle. If it had the original pistol grip it would look like a basterd Thompson subgun. I also like the fact it is a gas operated gun, and not a blow back open bolt. I bet it is quite accurate at 1-200 yards, would love to see one work.

[@AINGELPROJECT667]

Bendix? Like the gun turret company?

[@AM-hf9kk]

And automotive starters and automotive brakes... Just like GM and other large manufacturing concerns, they made a bit of everything during wartime.

[@Ratrazor]

That's an awesome gun, it really does suck it's missing a magazine and you have to have that custom-made to fire it.I don't get why there's so many awesome guns out there that are missing magazines that are rare.

[@mattdickson2]

+Forgotten Weapons you made a mistake at a little before 8:29 and said Winchester when I'm sure you meant inland

[@Primarch359]

since I assume you will never have the opportunity to do a video on all its competitors do you have any suggestions for a book on the competition?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+Primarch359 The Collector Grade book "War Baby" is where I would start.

[@taekim6819]

Is Inland Co. just a manufacturer? Is Inland Co. the same company that manufactures electronic parts in today's market? You can google electronic parts like headset, 3D printer filament, cables, circuit boards, etc with the Inland brand. Just curious...

[@RedXlV]

Given that the 1st model Bendix-Hyde was the best performer in the first round of testing, and all of the requested changes turned out to be detrimental...I have to wonder if somebody at the Ordinance Board was trying to rig the second round in Winchester's favor.

[@AluminumStud]

Very cool, but the Winchester M1 is great as well.

[@j0nthegreat]

you made the dis-assembly seem not all that tedious while you were doing it

[@Targetpopper]

I am sure had this been adopted there would have been some combo tool complete with a punch of sorts to push the retaining buttons in. I wonder if this would have been a better rifle if it had been fully and properly developed.

[@poppacross79]

+Targetpopper No tools take down is a military necessity, less crap to loose in a goddamn mud hole.

[@Targetpopper]

+Mark Patterson the US military has been issuing tools with rifles forever. The Garand had tools issued with it throughout its entire service life.

[@poppacross79]

+Targetpopper Sorry, I'm from a different generation. I was qualified expert M 14, 1911 Colt, MP 5, and pump shotgun. All my issued small arms were no tool take down. Other than a General purpose cleaning kit all were no tools take down. So was the Garand and M16. The last issued weapons that required tools for field level maintenance were the Thompson, BAR, M 60 (which I never touched), and the Springfield 03. I never touched either squad auto and I hated the Thompson with a passion even though I qualified with one. I also had a nasty bruise from it for two weeks and refused to touch another one.

[@poppacross79]

+Mark Patterson My PK 380 has a special tool. I discovered this pain in my ass after purchase and regret it. But for a nasty little surprise my Walther serves nicely.

[@Targetpopper]

Mark Patterson Well the M14 and the Garand did have a set of tools. The Garand had the m10, m3, and m3a1 combo tools. These tools have everything from Chamber brushes to screw drivers and even stuck case extractors and also allowed the gas system to be taken apart. The M14 had combo tool #7790769 Which was used in a variety of ways including disassembly of the Gas system and disassembly of the bolt. It also acted as the handle for the cleaning rod. So back 70+ years ago when these weapons were cutting edge and they were still figuring out how to make them soldier proof, a simple combo tool was not that far fetched. Even the actual M1 Carbine required a tool of some sort to remove it from the stock.

[@mattdickson2]

I like the idea of the design but if the select fire option had remained and it had been up calibered to .380 or .45 ACP and an inline stock had been added as well as a vertical foregrip I really think this rifle would have ended up not only winning the trials but actually even replacing the M1A1 Thompson simply because it would be able to do the same job a lot more accurately.

[@gregory334]

+Matt Dickson It's one thing to go a few ounces over the weight specification, but if they had chosen to use anything other than the carbine cartridge the trials required, it would not have been accepted in the first place.

[@mattdickson2]

+gregory334 this was just a hypothetical concept. what do you think of those suggested modifications? Would the gun described be a viable option for the era? Do you think if those calibers I mentioned were intermediate rifle caliber equivalents of there respective calibers that the gun I described would be viable today as a second line military rifle arm?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+Matt Dickson Replacing the Thompson was a separate set of requirements and trials.

[@VanillaGorilla502]

Reminds me of a small BAR

[@titaniumdiveknife]

MAAAAAAAAAAN I love guns.

[@MrMitchthegreat]

That looks like the bastard lovechild of a carbine and a thompson sub-machinegun