Why The New Chevy Silverado Isn't Selling

[@MegaBlackley]

There isn’t a single pick up truck that is worth $65 grand. Change my mind.

[@IzaguirreC]

Raptor R

[@dchex23]

My Raptor

[@bolt5916]

Absolutely nothing with a set of wheels should be more then a fuck**g house..... I'll stick to my old school rust bucket

[@colemanhigley747]

(in my salesman's voice) Sir!! You deserve this truck, You work hard and are worth it!! With 20% down and your trade and good credit you can easily swing $700 a month for 96 months,no problem!! The women, The respect, you deserve this!! How did I do? Ready to sign?

[@davevolz6138]

Rivian. Faster than the above

[@chrisbrennan2208]

Truck prices are just insane. The cost over the years has out paced the cost of living and now I hope these manufactures get to feel our pain as consumers

[@JimBeary]

A-men!

[@piggy310]

Vote for Biden again!!!

[@JimBeary]

@@piggy310 Didn't vote for him the first time! What's he got to do with this anyway?

[@DJIcePick13]

I PRAY THEY FEEL THE PAIN

[@daMillenialTrucker]

Bro I'm a truck driver, in 1995 truckers averaged $1000/week in 2023 truckers averaged $1000/week. Fuck this

[@brandonpiazza4765]

Absolutely insane That base models with old interior and cloth are 52k. After taxes and fees you are at almost 60k for a base truck with no creature comforts inside that you should be getting. How can the majority of people afford remotely close to that. Even the new Colorado is expected to cost 45-50k. Ben’s right. If they lowered prices to around 40k they would sell a million trucks a year.

[@clearcut6818]

You forgot to factor in the devaluation of your US dollars.

[@Michael-pi8ps]

@@clearcut6818 and manufacturers need to account for that. They’re dealing with a poorer customer base so their pricing needs to reflect that. It’s why the Civic Si is cheaper in Canada than in the USA. Same car, but Canadian dollars are worth less so they pay less.

[@theyhateme8763]

not how profits work

[@brianhuffman3202]

For several years auto makers have increased prices TWICE AS MUCH AS INFLATION, we are now to the tipping point of MEXICAN made vehicles and parts are out of reach, as most of those jobs were not only USA, but union jobs that paid something. Today GM has closed 70 % of the manufacturing sites they had here. AMERICANS are poorer and the corporations are a huge cause of that, WHILE rising prices much faster than the rate of inflation.

[@dougedoug2105]

I agree. Historically the mid range model LT has always accessible to the majority of Silverado buyers. Add in rebates and incentives and you have an affordable truck for most working class people. Chevrolet essentially priced out the majority of its customer base and sacrificed brand loyalty in the process. What a slap to the face to loyal customers. I purchased my first Chevrolet in 2020, a Camaro SS, which I couldn’t have been anymore satisfied with. So much so that I was originally looking to buy a Silverado when I purchased my truck last year. But when I saw the egregious prices they were demanding for the new models, the fact that incentives and rebates were basically non-existent, on top of the fact they were not budging on price leaving no room for negotiation, I abandoned the fcuking brand altogether. My logic was: 🤔 Silverados are nice, but they for dam sure ain’t 60k for a mid range LT nice! GM must have lost its dam mind, they could keep that cheap ass looking shit for those prices. Poor dealers 😢

[@yendorttiker5529]

The last truck I looked at was a GMC. I stopped because it looked nice. The sales price was $93,000+TTT! INSANE!

[@johnchenger7219]

40 thousand and under was posted for the plain Jane model

[@1001Hobbies]

No, a pick-up truck, a utility vehicle, should start at $25,000, but there are so many electronic bells and whistles you don't need, you can't get that.

[@OLDGUY7301]

Why I still use my 2004 silverado 1500 Z71 5.3 with 430,000+ miles, still origanal eng/trany. No payment since 2008. I love this truck! I don't trust new trucks!

[@michaelhayes9773]

I'm old enough to remember when pick ups were actually cheaper than cars and was an affordable option back in the day.

[@dhmig88]

I had several opportunities over the years to purchase a nice truck but opted for a car, years ago they were super affordable. Now that I’m older and I want a new truck I’m completely priced out.

[@kenuber4014]

And they were work trucks, not mall crawlers!!

[@alijahmartin9962]

@@kenuber4014 your 2001 F-150 couldn’t do 1/4 of what a “mall crawler” can do today.

[@reb1050]

I'm old enough to remember those days too. I went to a Honda (motorcycle) dealership and an elderly man about my age was looking at a new UTV. He was shaking his head at the price (over $25K). I told him that the price of that UTV was more than the price of my first 3 cars combined. (All new, 66 Mustang, 69 Torino, and 72 Torino). And trucks were less expensive than the cars were. My current truck is a 2005 Ford FX4 and hopefully, it will be my last truck and since it's only got 70,000 miles, it should be. BTW, I've always had 3 vehicles and the truck was not used any more than needed. It never got very good gas mileage, so I used the other vehicles every time I could.

[@michaelhayes9773]

@@reb1050 yeah, I had a 97 Dodge Ram bought in 98, paid 23K for it. I just replaced it last year with a 2014 Silverado with 85K on it and I paid 24K. I've always had at least 2 vehicles myself so my vehicles typically last a long time. I'm hoping this will be my last truck, but it would be nice I suppose if I lived long enough to need another one. I just don't see how people do it these days.

[@mikedalton7022]

Because they are expensive as hell.

[@elcuh9506]

Agreed! Custom trailbosses are going over 50k. Yea that 2 inch lift and trailboss sticker looks nice. But thats about it! Bought my 2020 for 54k 3 years ago slighlty used that is nicely optioned( z71, leather, blind zone alert, bed liner, park assist, tow package, etc.) These newer prices are insane!

[@livinglifeontheedge4261]

@@elcuh9506 In 2002 I bought a Sierra Denali AWD/AWS that was so loaded the only option was a block heater for $31k......Inflation is a thing I know but come on boys this is more like an explosion. I'm retired now and drive a used car and thankful I was able to get my new vehicle ya ya's in when it was at least affordable.

[@omardevonlittle3817]

Lol Word. Has he hit all the manufacturers yet?

[@jerryjeromehawkins1712]

This is getting ridiculous. Instead of the same exact video for every manufacturer... how about just one video saying... "THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE!"

[@songj0056]

@@jerryjeromehawkins1712 But, how else is he going to “make videos daily”?

[@tmmone12]

These manufacturers are going to price themselves right out of business 😳

[@JamesBrown-db9pk]

good

[@leir2005]

They did. And the government bailed them out.

[@DeezNuts-ps3zq]

@@leir2005exactly that’s why they’re doing this cause they know Uncle Sam is gonna bail em out with tax payer money

[@nicolewembley3093]

Looks like they are there again. Highly overpriced.

[@johndavis-tn3il]

Pay attention to the world. The elite ruling class wants to deny us freedom of travel. Note, they can easily afford the most expensive vehicles.

[@Westwick99]

As an old Yankee from Vermont (where EVERY pickup turns to dust in pretty short order) I found I needed a decent, used 1/2 ton, wanted a Sierra or Silverado b/c my buddy’s brand new F-150 Platinum melted away in just a few seemingly short years. But how I love those Coyote V8s! So I found a 15 year old 4x4 Sierra 1500 in 2016 in Florida. Flew down, drove it back, undercoated the hell out of it every year & here in 2024, still running it and 😮 still not rusty. That’s how I beat the CRAZY new truck prices.

[@johnbucher3009]

Been shopping for a couple of months, at Ford, GM and Dodge dealers, looking for a HD 2500 or 3500 pickup. When I started to shop almost all the dealers were take it at this price, that’s it. Now they are calling me to “come in and talk”. I have decided to buy a used truck. Tuesday I’m going to look at a 2022 GMC 2500 HD Sierra with 10k miles on it, he is asking 25k below the list prices today. The new truck manufacturers have lost me as a customer with these prices that have way out paced inflation and common sense.

[@widowmakerjj]

My silverado bought in 2020 was a nice equipped LT model. Sticker price was $43k with 5.3L motor. I don't see $10k improvements in past couple years. The 4 cylinder turbo is a bad idea. People like me don't need the full crew cab. The ext./Double cab has been on past 2 silverado. Many of the crew cab have only the 5ft box and I prefer the 6.5ft. That's my 2 cents worth of my opinion. Lol

[@tipdog36]

I have the same truck and paid $43k as well. I have the 4x4 5.3. The same equipped 22 model was a whopping $52k. Glad a purchased when I did 😅

[@Michael-eg3hc]

The 4 cylinder turbo is a good engine

[@widowmakerjj]

I don't doubt that it's a good engine , just not sure about lifespan with it when hauling campers, boats etc... I have driven a loaner truck with it. Seems fine for every day driving

[@tyuspoletti]

Most dads seem to have trucks, and I can say the double cab is terrible vs the crew cab. Family of four and when I was in 8th grade at 5’11 sitting in the back of the double cab is terrible longer than 3 hours vs the crew cab

[@zeroturn7091]

@@widowmakerjj while you’re correct about longevity concerns, that powertrain is meant to be a people hauler. Think of it as an SUV replacement as modern day SUVs are now pavement princesses for the most part.

[@mikeoneill81]

I appreciate your price breakdowns but I think I’m still about $10-$15,000 short from being able to afford a truck nowadays.

[@infotechsailor]

Don't forget the interest rates now make the payment seem like you added another 10-20% to the purchase price

[@wabdinur]

Pull a "Hell or High Water" on them banks.

[@randyhowell5639]

I ordered a 2023 Chevy 3/4 ton HD 4 months ago. I buy them stripped down because it’s a work truck. The only options I ordered are air, radio and cruise control the price is $ 42,700. I’m still waiting on it to be delivered.

[@tigertelecom1]

I drive a 2008 Silverado with 262k miles. For the price of a down payment for a new truck, I looked at my options and put the money into an engine rebuild, brakes, and a general fix up. The engine builder said they are getting a lot of business for older pickup repowers due to the outrageous prices for new. one more thing….on the 2008’s title, original sale price was a little over 20k. Seriously. Why don’t they just dust off the old plans for 2008s and build those, for say 30k?

[@loudellerman1670]

I’ve been looking for Colorado\ Canyon, can You produce a video on them or midsize trucks in general ?

[@Outsider.Reviews]

It's a good point that the Chevy is priced a bit less than the other but as Mike Dalton just commented... still expensive as hell lol This is a blinking contest between manufacturers and consumers and I hope the manufacturers blink first because I do not want these high prices with zero incentives to be the new norm

[@agger838]

Expensive and consumers are facing much higher cost of living so no extra cash for a higher payment. They might sell if they did 92+ month loans.. lol

[@Monkeyseemonkey79]

That's a great way to describe it. Yes, manufactures are dealing with increased production costs - but at this point the MRSP of new trucks is a "let's see how much the market can bear" experiment. I suspect this experiment will seriously backfire as we go into a recession and buyers are facing much higher interest rates for auto loans. Manufacturer rebates will be making a comeback in a big way.

[@bamahama707]

Manufacturers WILL blink first. Nobody HAS to have a 65k new truck that is lacking in basic creature comforts...

[@Outsider.Reviews]

@@bamahama707 I agree... But the mob is fickle.... And people are stupid lol

[@geneg6343]

I have a 2008 Toyota Tacoma double cab off-road 4X4, I purchased new with a MSRP of 32k. Negotiated the price down to 26k, it helped that a gallon of regular unleaded was at $5.00 a gallon at CostCo in SOCAL at the time of purchase. The Tacoma has just over 105k miles and still runs great. I have several other vehicles and I have contemplated buying a new full size ½ ton pick-up. Seeing the prices I am staying with my trusty Tacoma.

[@dhmig88]

A dealer would probably give you $19,000 for it today and sell it for 30K to some dope.😄

[@qroque305]

I have a 2004 Toyota Tacoma with 176,000 miles and still going Strong!!!!

[@karlschauff7989]

I had one of those but the rust ate it.

[@3Monkey250]

Such a great video. I’m currently 21, I bought my first brand new truck 2 years ago. I got a Custom rally edition with the 2.7L Turbo and I paid $39,000 ! If I wanted trade it in for a newer model I’d be paying over $10,000 which is absolutely insane.

[@Danzilly]

Love hearing him spout out these prices! Nope,nope,and nope!

[@TheHallway7]

This explains why the older ones are so in demand. After looking for months,I found a 2015 LT,with aftermarket rear air lift,trailer brake control,95K miles for $ 25k. I love it and will maintain and keep it for a long time.

[@88Petry]

95k miles, u just bought an endless money pit. That truck is already half through it's life. May as well spend 50k and get a new truck.

[@arthurhudgens8213]

Can't get a new truck for 50 grand..if it were 50 grand then tack on finance charge itl be much higher

[@jeffreybouche3817]

Shit I could easily find a damn near new 2020 tundra for that. I’d do that any day of the week! Almost financed one but bought a 07 silverado for $15k with the same amount of miles as the guy above..

[@jesusruiz3723]

That’s crazy I paid 25k for what you got with 20k miles in 2018. Crazy world we living in

[@tallicafan85]

once these newer chevys go over 100k miles from 2010 and up the start to fall apart. keep and eye on the oil cooler lines, they love to go.

[@wanted-33]

You're correct Ben. Can you imaging how many more trucks GM could sell if they would just drop their prices of trucks by just 5K dollars compared to Ford, and Ram. I don't know what the profit margin is on trucks these days, but it has to be a bunch. GM may be able to actually increase their profits by selling more trucks while helping out their customers with lower prices. However, I have worked (as a peon) with big Executives at a Fortune 500 company, and their long term thinking/vision is non existant these days.

[@jaylee8542]

There was another great video done by another youtuber about how the Japanese and Korean producers are going for market share instead of raw profits. It shows that they are killing it as far as overall sales. All the while American producer's lots are backing up. I wish I could remember who did that video.

[@clintpeterson9028]

Very true

[@Kidrick79]

Dont get Ford truck, you'll die in a tin pop can

[@jamesdarcy3902]

I think about 70% of the consumer price is profit and tax.

[@jonathonsantamont8527]

You’re probably right. They make all their money on the big trucks and suvs. Sedans are break even or losers and EV are complete losers… so unfortunately truck buyers continue to subsidize the whole companies, thanks to the average mileage us government requirements…. It’s sad.

[@88Petry]

A 5-year truck payment is higher than my 25-year mortgage payment. Even an 8 year truck payment is equal to my mortgage. I refuse to spend more on a truck that depreciates in value than I spend on my mortgage that goes up in value.

[@i_run_far1132]

You should do a video on the reliability of these new trucks. Which ones are spending more time in the shop with blown motors.

[@andys6382]

Don't forget blow tranny's leaking transfer cases brakes that don't work fuel brake and tranny lines rust away no ground clearance and they want 60 grand go to hell

[@bigredd5171]

All have gone down the toilet

[@karlschauff7989]

How are you going to get that data? Manufacturers don't release it and most of the claims made on the internet by anonymous strangers are ridiculously exaggerated.

[@i_run_far1132]

@@karlschauff7989 consumer reports? I’m sure they don’t pull data from internet trolls.

[@davidmajor1508]

The engines and powertrains on most new vehicles, including “trucks”, are more reliable than ever, as REAL statistics from JD Powers , and various other sources, show.

[@valet132011]

The continuing price increases, then dealership markups. The interest rates are outrageous. Having to wait months or longer to get one, since ordering. The reliability has gone down terribly.

[@smokeylake6732]

That’s why they should be called stealerships

[@robertearlecoppola2991]

This video nailed it. I’ve always purchased Ford trucks over the years and just switched to Chevy last year. Ford was insane with their pricing ($15-20k over sticker) and Chevy offered their trucks at sticker with some nice rebates. Plus Chevy came with so many more options at the price point I was looking at It was a no brainer.

[@Oneshawdog89]

Welcome to the bowtie family…🏁

[@michaelhoyt3327]

I know this is a months old thread, but I was in your same exact situation and had to buy a Chevy last Friday because of it. Ford's pricing for what you get is stupid right now.

[@robertearlecoppola2991]

I’ve had mine exactly a year today, it’s been an excellent truck so far. I think it was a good choice. I think Ford needs to get off their high horse. They are still asking $10k over asking for their raptors and $50k on the R’s. The thing that blows my mind is people are actually paying it.

[@randy5766]

Just purchased a new 3/4 ton. A day of shopping showed one thing. Silverado is the bang for the buck. I purchased a 2500 HD with the LT package. Owned Ram for years, and I wish I had switched before now. Ford and Dodge Ram are, at least in my area, price gouging.

[@calebniederhofer6529]

I hope you didn’t buy the gas 6.6 motor.

[@calebniederhofer6529]

@@scott5799 The engines have a pretty high oil consumption rate, and are burning a quart of oil every thousand miles, and more. There are so many better options out there. Don’t buy a unproven gas motor in a 3/4 ton truck. Buy diesel, or go to the 7.3 gas motor.

[@calebniederhofer6529]

@@scott5799 7.3 is the best gas motor in a heavy duty truck sold currently. However, If you are doing heavy towing often, Diesel is superior. Otherwise, No.

[@calebniederhofer6529]

Ford is building better motors. I don’t trust GM. Yes the 7.3 is very new, but Is a reliable platform, and better low end torque for a N/A motor. The issues with it were very early on.

[@technom3598]

@@scott5799 so you got rid of a truck that has a problem with 150k miles on it ... And with a truck that has cam phaser issues at literally any mileage?

[@heinrichbier4759]

Still proudly driving my 98’ Sierra around up here in Canada only a couple of hours of where she was built in Oshawa

[@torque91]

I bought a brand new 2000 short bed single cab LS Z-71 back in the day for around $23,000. I make more money now but there is no way I could justify the cost of a new truck.

[@PaulGinAZ68]

I was in the market for a replacement to a 2017 F150 Platinum that I sold (regrettably) in 2021. I tried ordering the same truck from my local Ford dealer that I've transacted multiple cars through. The sales staff was relatively decimated and it was a case of "place an order and we can wait." I had the luxury of waiting, as I had a car to drive. After 5 months of placing my order, forums started telling us that interior colors were being paired down, and the max recline feature was gone... and then the dealership stopped responding to my inquiries. The other insult to injury part was, my 2017 F150 Platinum with everything but FX4 was an MSRP of $65k with a transacted price of $53k. The new version was $74k at the time of ordering without rebates. I finally called the dealership and it took a month to get the order out of the system and my deposit back. I just built the same truck that I ordered for $74k and a year later, it was $81k. No thank you.

[@ExaltedDuck]

To get anything other than that 2.7, you need to get higher trim models that cost at least 5-10 grand more than the baseline, and then pay for the engine option, too. Those packages come with all kinds of useless extra features like heated seats and wheels and cameras and nanny devices. And then you have to pay another 1500-2000 to get a proper gearshift lever and dump the atrocious bench seat they put in these things. And you can't get a 2 door with anything but the lowest engine and trim. So there's another 5-7 grand. All said, it's hard to option in a proper drivetrain without all these bells and whistles that take MSRP up to around 60 grand. Going by prudent financial rules-of-thumb, income should probably be well into 6 figures... like 140-150k/year to support the purchase of a 60k+ vehicle unless there's 40%+ down payment. I am thoroughly convinced most pickup trucks being sold right now, are being sold to businesses. Private buyers have to be rich and/or stupid to step into this nonsense. Only way I would buy one right now would be if I could single cab, short bed, 4x4, bucket seats, with a v8 (preferably 6.2L), and for no more than about 45k.

[@Hengsha]

I think its a lot of idiots taking out loans they cant afford for obscene interest rates, these ppl will likely never own a home or the level of their home purchases/retirement are being diminished by a vehicle that lasts 4 or 5 years.

[@Togged]

45k? More like 35k.

[@zeroturn7091]

Loans have gone up to 8 years. These are priced for real estate developers.

[@Oneshawdog89]

6.2 single cab for $45,000 is definitely not happening 😂😂 6.2 you have to pay to play ball..

[@strayedarticle2838]

I've seen that with a few items. Notice how local governments always have fleets of the newest chevys and ford trucks. The government buys all those regular cab trucks, and they can pay no matter the price. I prefer the regular cab also. Same with welding equipment, if a company has a government contract then they don't have to be competitive, or so it seems.

[@Eric-ut5ld]

My Parents bought a 4-door Z71 for something like $35,000 in 2004, and that truck was snazzy back then. A comparable truck today would be $60,000, easily. That pretty much says everything right there.

[@MusicLoverIM]

I’ve done hundreds of hours of research before I purchased my 2023 Tahoe high country diesel. I’m very happy you confirmed my findings. I was considering the GMC Denali ultimate. I really wanted the air ride along with all the other features the high country Tahoe came with air ride for 82k This is the only trim level that comes with air ride. The Denali ultimate was 110k. Great savings with more features going with the Chevy.

[@jepunit12]

I bought a 2020 Silverado msrp was 56. For the same truck now it’s closer to 62-63k. The new interior is nice but the price, although like you said it’s lower than ford or ram, still it’s priced out of the market for someone with a bigger family like myself.

[@directreply350]

There’s only one rule in sales: for right price, everything sells

[@sforgus27]

The local dealers around here are flooded with 4 cylinders, and those are the only versions with decent incentives. Apparently not many buyers want the 4 cyl. There's not many mid-tier trucks available in this area so it's either 4 cyl or higher end, and not much in between.

[@elche1976]

The 4 cyl turbo in the Silverado is not a bad engine at all. 4-5 years now. Now if someone is routinely towing for a living, I'd go with something else. But for the normal pavement prices workload that 80% use their trucks for... it's more than adequate.

[@RossMalagarie]

No one wants to pay $50K for a 4 cylinder

[@timferguson593]

Plastic oil pan turned me off.

[@wkw4095]

I just don't get the idea of a tiny 4 cylinder on a full size pick up. Even if it has the turbo it makes zero sense. It's like a Chihuahua on speed. It will have an early death.

[@elche1976]

@@wkw4095 that's the thing... if you've researched the engine, it isn't tiny. And it's not the 4 cyl you are likely thinking that is in smaller cars. But to each their own.

[@mabelpup8502]

$50k+++++ is why sales are down, except for impulse shoppers. I can’t imagine a $1000k car payment. I make good money, but there’s no need for these prices.

[@spencerpatterson8883]

2 reasons. No trucks to buy over the past few years, now they are trying to make it up on per unit cost. How anyone can afford a truck is beyond me. Who can budget $900-$1200 A MONTH for a truck. ABSURD

[@jeremygregory7178]

Too expensive. Too high interest rates. Let the dealers burn.

[@superfastjeffoftheworld5817]

Dealers don't set MSRP, or interest rates.

[@MrG8Rsir]

​@@superfastjeffoftheworld5817 dealers can also take money off of the MSRP.

[@garrybillick3979]

@@MrG8Rsir Of course they COULD….but if they’re moving vehicles and meeting their sales expectations, they aren’t going to.

[@piggy310]

@@MrG8Rsir Lower the MSRP when 100 people are in line to pay it? Lol...what world do you live in?

[@BigBossIvan]

I bought a new 2020 F150 STX package with 4x4 for 37k + TTL. It was immediately prior to covid. These numbers are just absolute madness. Inflation or not, I would never spend damn near TWENTY THOUSAND more dollars for a similar truck. I guess this will have to turn into my first super high mileage truck...

[@wadeplowman7030]

You are absolutely right. Buddy of mine got a 2019 STX for like 36k new. Crew cab,4x4, 2.7 ecoboost, etc. That truck now is in the 50s. THE 50s!! Its been 3.5 years. XLTs are like 60-65k now. Insanity.

[@marioavila1559]

Same here! I bought my 2020 platinum F350 single rear wheel short bed 4x4 diesel in May 2020 for a steal and figured I’d keep it for 2 years (my average) then get a new one. After seeing this crazy inflation there’s absolutely no way I’m getting rid of it. It’ll see 2-300k miles plus before I shell out these insane prices. I’m 100% prepared to keep mine til the wheels fall off lol. It’s a daily for me and I don’t tow so yeah we have a ways to go 34xxx miles on it as of today.

[@hennerdierks6410]

I am currently in the market for a new half ton and having been die hard Ford in the past, I struggle to see the value and am in fact leaning towards GMC now, primarily for price and value for money. Thank you for breaking it down so clear, that is absolutely helping my decision making even more.

[@garrybillick3979]

If price and value for money is a top priority for you, you might want to look at Chevy instead of GMC. The most equivalently optioned vehicles between GMC and Chevy have the GMC at about $2K more based on MSRP. Mind you, more vehicles are built under the chevy name than the GMC name, so you should find more Chevy inventory than GMC available.

[@lefty6string]

Your sentiment is EXACLTY like mine. Need a new truck. Want a new Ford. Refuse to pay what they are asking. Will likely buy a GMC this fall if prices drop a little.

[@glennbeadshaw727]

I will save you having to wrap your feeble mind around the whole issue just stick with your old truck and mind your own business

[@glennbeadshaw727]

​@@lefty6string are you not aware of the entire cylinder deactivation problems with GM dropping their valve trains and catastrophically ruining the engine?

[@butterflygirl2285]

IMO - We were die hard fans of Ford until we looked at the 2023 SUVs. The materials, inside the vehicles, are sub standard. It feels like Ford is resting on its laurels. The company will go the way of the dinosaur if it doesn't step up its game.

[@alleliteaaronstarcher9417]

I bought a 2024 Chevy Silverado Trailboss LT Thursday evening. Love it! Definitely bought the 3.0L Duramax! Did about $15k off MSRP

[@shave1669]

I remember when trucks were inexpensive and mainly for WORK. If it got dirty, then you hosed off the interior and exterior so it would be clean enough to take Me-maw and Pe-paw to church. I am sure there is a still a market for just plain old durable and reliable work trucks WITHOUT all the bells and whistles.

[@ES44AC-2]

The interest rates are ridiculous, I believe that also is a huge problem. I'm glad I got my 22' LT Trail Boss before those interest rates got so high.

[@mikeoneill81]

That’s something I forgot to consider. Good point 😮

[@justinramos4727]

Chevy is offering 0% for 22’s and 23’s

[@dougedoug2105]

Interest rates are one thing but dealer markups and the increase in MSRP are a huge factor as well. The higher the MSRP, the higher the selling price. 🤔 50k for a truck without a V8? Chevrolet, Bitch please! Ain’t nobody got time for that 😂🤣😅

[@garrybillick3979]

As someone else said, the MSRP price increases only adds to the problem. I bought a 2023 Silverado RST. It happened to be built November 2022. It was $400 less expensive than a less optioned vehicle built a month later, and about $2800 less expensive than a recently built vehicle optioned identically. The best deals right now seem to be on remaining unsold 2022 models. That said, there can be a potentially expensive trade off of buying a left over model. For those who do buy a holdover vehicle, I would suggest GAP insurance….

[@dougedoug2105]

@@garrybillick3979 I think what isn’t being said here is that the majority of people complaining about sticker prices, dealer markups, and interest rates are individuals who want a new vehicle, and don’t necessarily need one. Moreover, maybe the Federal Reserve working in concert with manufacturers, dealers, and banks to raise interest rates thus preventing new buyers from potentially racking up more consumer debt on new vehicle purchases isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Additionally, it’s irresponsible from an environmental standpoint to constantly be building new cars when there’s literally millions of used cars capable of getting people from Point A to Point B. Bottom line here is that most late model vehicle made within the last ten years will last owners at least 100k miles before major problems with routine maintenance. That’s more than enough time to pay off a loan if the terms were reasonable. All that said, if you’re already in delinquent territory and in jeopardy of defaulting on your current vehicle loan, and the vehicle you’re currently driving is working perfectly fine, then stay your broke asses off car dealership lots and get caught up on all your bills; The government is basically protecting financially irresponsible consumers. Whatever phenomenon is transpiring isn’t sustainable & these new cars are literally going no where. Wait another year and buy then. Lastly, There are more than enough thieves out here already, let’s not add loan defaulters to the equation. My $.02.

[@danwoods5105]

The automakers are making 14,000,000 vehicles that are priced for the top 1% of customers, or about 3,300,000 customers who can afford their product. As long as the 1% buys 4 new vehicles every single year, then this is remotely a realistic strategy. Otherwise, archeologists will be the only people to buy the unsold ones.

[@lalutte65]

At some point over time manufacturers lost track of Henry fords formula for success

[@paulraubertas9762]

Spot on Ben, pricing of base trucks is insane.

[@Eastahtata]

There's also tons of features that are getting stripped from the newer models. On the Rams Homeilnk, folding mirrors, blind spot systems, etc are being gutted out of the lower trims. So not only are prices skyrocketing, but you're getting less features for the money.

[@brucewilliams473]

1986, Dodge Ram 360 motor 3/4 ton great paint from factory still, interior good still runs. Replacing the fuel filters and lines been sitting for 5yrs. Primed it up, it started it turned over. New battery when finished rolling out. It's a classic paid $500.00 bucks back in the early '90s. Solid Truck, Peace.

[@lillyjolenevilisvilis443]

In my case the big turn-off for me is the fact that the only pickup I would buy is no longer available. That is a standard cab short bed. Chevy had a std cab short box in 2022. But I couldn't find one.

[@John-kx3ng]

Yes totally agree.

[@dougedoug2105]

Agreed. I looked at the 2023 model a few days ago and the back seat was huge. More space in the rear vs the front makes for an ugly truck in my opinion. Forcing people to buy a bigger truck than necessary could turn away potential buyers

[@DillyDawg649]

Hey guys, I’m a Chevy Sales Associate. They have brought back the single cab short box trucks, with the 2.7L Turbo. They’re hard to get and hard to find, hopefully we’ll get more soon. I’m a big fan of them as well

[@lillyjolenevilisvilis443]

@@DillyDawg649 DO you know what happens when a manufacturer offers something that they really don't want to? They limit the availability and options so that people can't get it how they want in this case std cab short box pickup. When there are few sales for those reasons they site poor sales and then secretly drop said product. I went on the website to build my truck. Then I went on search inventory with the sad. cab short box spec. Out of thousands of trucks listed NOT ONE of these trucks listed was what I requested. The closest was a couple of std. Cab long box truck the rest were ALL four door trucks of every variation. What kills me is that even if I were to order my truck it is only available as a work truck. This is frustrating knowing that in the middle eastern countrys a std cab short box truck is avaible in top trims and decked out with all the options. So check, I bet Chevy has dropped the option. If not, will probably do so sooner than later. Just Saying.

[@jonathangodbout6645]

​@@DillyDawg649 I would buy one tomorrow if they offer it with the 5.3 V8. I do not want a four cylinder motor

[@randylester1219]

You're exactly right, Price Price Price. When the National average hourly wage is $20-$25 per hour, and the Autoworker wage is $25-$45 per hour and the Shop charge is upwards of $200 per hour, then yeah price is definitely a factor. I bought a new Ram HD in 2019 for $50k, same truck today is greater than $65k. Why? We all know why!

[@dynomike1964]

`Labour is less then 3% of the price of a truck .

[@randylester1219]

@@dynomike1964 according to the UAW see below. Even the roar from Congressional critics about assembly line largesse seemed to miss the fact that (according to the UAW) labor costs account for about 10 percent of the cost of producing a vehicle; the remaining 90 percent includes research and development, parts, advertising, marketing and management overhead.

[@dynomike1964]

@@randylester1219 Still a good value

[@1personalt]

@@dynomike1964 Thats not really true. There is labor in every module/part they buy before final assembly.

[@elche1976]

​@@dynomike1964 no it's not. Suckers part ways with their money for that.

[@charlesharnois3684]

This is not hard to figure out, Trucks have simply become to expensive!😁😁😁😁😁

[@scoutmaster33]

They had a lack of parts in 2021 and 2022 so they increased prices to make the same profit over fewer vehicles. Shipping costs for parts went sky high in 2020 and 2021 so they added those costs and never backed them out after shipping went down from 600% rates closer to normal.

[@LMY513]

My 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500 lasted almost 19 yrs with 292,000 miles and still going! I gave to my mechanic so I could buy a new used 2022 Chevy Silverado 34k miles for $36k for long trips! Come with running board - tint- bed liner - floor mats and electrical outlets and extra lights in the bed truck! 4 cylinder turbo and I LOVE IT! 20-22 mpg Fast as heck on the take off if needed! Chevy Silverado was very good to me and my 2006 analog still going strong!

[@realallenstudios]

I just picked up a new 23 Silverado LT. I wanted to go Ford originally, but there was about a $200 per month price difference between the two - I went with the Silverado because there is more value there. Plain and simple, GM trucks are the only full sized trucks for sale that you can salvage some sort of value deal out of. Ford and Ram are insanely priced comparatively - imo.

[@bigfootswatching9986]

And what did you pay for your truck????

[@daytonaguy3584]

You bought based on payment so you are probably fukd in that truck

[@Lee-zi1zb]

@@bigfootswatching9986 Looks like he had to get rid of his cellphone/internet plan and can no longer respond.

[@realallenstudios]

@@bigfootswatching9986 Sale price of $49,954

[@KG_Fisherman]

I'm rethinking buying a Ford. But like you said, I heard and have been reading about the 2024 GM Trucks, and I'm thinking about waiting.

[@hectortoledo5914]

The 2.7 is a good motor dam truck is like a rocket ship/sleeper with all its torque

[@donaldhollingsworth3875]

I'm holding off for a couple years before I by a new truck since I always pay cash & my 2017 Silverado LTZ, Z71, 4 WD, Crew Cab, Short Bed, 6.2L gasoline engine runs great & only has 34,500 miles on it. It gets an average of 17 MPG in city driving & 26 MPG on the highway going 75 MPH. It rarely goes into V4 mode but I'm going to purchase a system that prevents that from happening. I want a fully loaded 1500 ZR2 Silverado without the stupid sun roof. I also tell people to buy the 6 year extended warranty then a new extended warranty when the first one runs out. It saves thousands of dollars in repair costs. I just wish Chevrolet would offer the Duramax diesel engine in the 1500 trucks & a super charged Corvette engine also as options.

[@glenarseneau1231]

I like the grill on the custom the best excluding the HD

[@scruffy4647]

No matter the price, ultimately it’s your decision, but paying higher and higher prices makes it more challenging to get reasonable pricing.

[@rbmcobra]

My first house was only $54,000!!!! These truck prices are ridiculous!! No wonder they aren't selling!

[@connorjohnson5909]

Hey Ben great videos, I currently drive a 2021 Ram rebel, I have a bunch of equity in the truck and low miles and I plan on trading for a 2022 Silverado custom or LT very soon. Reasons I plan to make the switch include lowering my monthly note and getting better fuel economy. I’ve also had some issues with a leaking rear window seal on my ram, dealer replaced under warranty, and I’ve had several other friends with issues on newer rams, tailgate latch issues and a starter problem. I’d love to get a ford as I had 2 in the past and loved them but they are just too expensive.

[@robrocker7544]

I purchased a new 2020 Silverado LT and had the same leak problem in rear window. Also the damn truck now has rust on interior metal parts. Be ware Silverado quality has gone to crap! And incredibly over priced

[@cboc21]

Don’t do it…I have a 2020 Silverado and it’s been nothing but issues

[@jameswhiteside1506]

I was born and raised GM . I'd keep the Ram.

[@cboc21]

@@jameswhiteside1506 yep same here

[@richardrussell1025]

I have always driven trucks but if prices stay high I will either drive my current truck until the wheels fall off or go to a different vehicle. Not paying high prices for a truck. Trucks got popular because they used to be affordable.

[@williamdespot5424]

In 1965 my dad bought a chevy [10] half ton fleetside with a 8' box stick 6 and the only extras were painted west coast mirrors and a painted rear bumper [not a step bumper just a bumper].It was just a work truck something that you probably cant even order today..........He paid $1777 including tax delivered.,,,,,,,,,I guess they were the good old days.After we got the truck he filled it up @ Sunoco for $.17/gallon........

[@roberthenry9319]

Not sure how 1965 prices relate to 2024 prices.

[@scarface8806]

These insane prices in picked are crazy! I got my 2018 LTZ new off the lot for about 46k. If I wanted to get a new truck with the same add-one; it would be around 70-75k!!!

[@TheOnespeedbiker]

I wish Ben would have discussed financing; since there is no more scarcity, the manufacturers are returning to making their profits either by offering high interest rates with discounts, or low interest rates without discounts. The manufacturers make a similar profit either way, which is why it's best to buy when they offer discounts with higher interest rates and than get outside financing at a lower rate. Rather than just presenting unit sales per year, it also would be informative to see the increases in the MSRPs of trucks by make and model over the last 4 years). As long as the manufacturers can sell over 450,000 trucks @ at inflated prices, the prices continue will stay high.

[@RaoulThomas007]

What about pattern failures on Ford’s (cam phasers and 10-speed transmission) and GM’s (cylinder deactivation and 10-speed transmission). Do consumers even consider these issues before purchasing a truck?

[@Saint69X2]

Just because a truck will wipe your backside doesn’t mean it’s a great deal at $70,000. Chevy, Ford, Ram, GMC, and all the rest, you’ve priced middle class buyers right off your lots. You can keep the damn truck.

[@mantoblame6755]

I have been considering leaving Ford for GM. Been life long Ford guy, 3rd F150. Currently rolling in a 14, F150 4x4 had since 2015. It’s in great condition, could probably get a decent chunk of change for it, but 60+K for comparable truck these days, 70 to upgrade to Lariat!?!? Insane. Love the new GM interiors, and the trail boss packages look better than Tremor in my opinion.

[@herbb8547]

That 2014 of yours is vastly more reliable than anything GM makes. I once traded a Ford in for a Silverado and regretted it immensely. I went from a used, but very reliable vehicle to a brand new piece of junk that put me at the dealer getting repairs from day 1. Right now, the GM trucks are the least reliable pickups you can buy. They have more problems than anything else and have earned do not buy recommendations from Consumer Reports for years. GM trucks are junk. Period.

[@d_manoil1647]

According to Ben nothing is selling, yet where i live the inventory (other than Ram) is minimal and no selection

[@minnwild3333]

Where do you live? I live in the Minneapolis area and starting to look at F150's. F150's are starting to stack up. Over 1/2 the Vehicles at dealership are F150's. They are also being offered at $3000 to $4000 below MSRP.

[@garrybillick3979]

Also depends on exactly what one is looking for. My local GM dealers are loaded with 2.7L 4 cylinders, have quite a few 5.3L V8, basically NO 6.2L V8, and maybe one or two diesels. The only deals to really be found are on the 4 bangers that nobody wants.

[@williamwest1974]

1. High prices 2. Rising interest rates 3. Inflation 4. Pending recession

[@joseRodriguez-pk9ld]

That's what they want you to think to be able to over charge 😳

[@denniskirk4055]

5. FJB

[@carstuff4u942]

I remember in 2019, you could get a brand new Ford F150 4x4 extended cab for 37k.....

[@Johnny-um6sd]

It was a reasonable price) considering) as soon as you drive it off the lot) it losses value)

[@dhyde9207]

Average truck payment equal to an average mortgage payment. Which do you want to buy?

[@adamhutto1660]

I can tell you one thing, the build quality on GMC has declined a great deal. I bought a '22 GMC Sierra 2500 SLT. I've had a lot of problems already. Leaking rear window that had to go to the dealer 3 times. I've also had a transmission issue from day 1. The dealer would constantly tell me it's normal until about 12,000 miles. The transmission would jerk, have trouble with sloppy shifts. "It's the transmissions learning period." I drove the pickup to Illinois from Washington state, mind you at that point I was over 13,000, and the transmission was still having problems. I took to the dealer again, and they found metal fragments in the pan. The torque converter was to blame, and a host of other components, and it's still jerky. They now have told me it's learning again. How much BS do you have to go through after spending $70,000? I was once a GM guy, after this experience, it may be a Dodge next time. Completely disappointed with this truck.

[@albsure4832]

Its not just them. I have a ram 2500 diesel i am selling now. $86k sticker paid 67k in 2019. Ive had issues with brakes, the dashboard is peeling up and costs $2k to fix and one of the ram box locks doesnt lock. Even worse is the spf filter is acting up and costs 5k to fix. Im moving back to gas and getting a 23 silverado high country with super cruise. Super cruise was big for me its one of the best reviewed “self driving” system on the market.

[@adamhutto1660]

@Albsure , damn, sorry to hear that. It's just so depressing to spend that much money on a piece. I should've waited like you did for that Allison.

[@jimquimby9108]

Chevy lost me when they decided I could only get a 2.7 in the Custom. I'm old school and I'd like to choose the size motor I want.

[@garrybillick3979]

You can….just not in the carryover Custom model.

[@Griz5340]

I would like a new truck, but, when GM started shutting down cylinders to save a minute amt of gas i said big mistake. My 2003 top of the line pu is still sharp, gets good mileage and cylinders do not de-activate, 130k miles on 21 yr old. I’ll continue to wait for lower pricing, better motors.

[@redracerproductions]

Numbers might be down but I'm guessing all the companies are making a larger profit on each vehicle considering today's pricing. My '15 Sierra SLT is about as loaded as it could be then but I wanted the max tow package so I didn't go Denali and it had an MSRP of $57k. I bought it at the end of the year and got 20% off putting it under $46K. 8 years later are they really worth the nearly 50% increase in transaction price?

[@richsmith3120]

Price and Quality! In today's economy hardly anyone can afford these new PUs.

[@matthewcoffey372]

Huge Chevy fan here, but as soon as the general public finds out new models are using a quart of oil to every 100 gallons of gasoline these sell numbers will fall fast

[@markdanielczyk944]

Truck makers need to get back to reality. Trying to find a regular cab long box truck is almost impossible these days. $50K+ for a truck is insane! I don't need the fluff, I need a work truck!!!

[@dillonvautrin8116]

Ben made some good points. One thing he left out specifically about 2023 is that gm is offering finance incentives on all there trucks not just base models. That certainly played a roll in me buying a gmc last week. With other manufacturers you need to get financing through independent banks, at least for the nicer trims. Not to mention you have to wait years for a superduty.

[@andrewpeters8362]

It is totally worth it to buy a gently used truck. I bought a 2019 RST Z71 with a 5.3 for 45,000. Brand new there is no way I'd be able to afford something that nice with the current prices.

[@taylorstout7742]

I agree with Ben, I’d the auto makers would price lower they would sell more in no time. However I just bought a new 23 custom trail boss well optioned (z71, running boards, tono cover, trailering package and maybe a few other small things) for 53k. Sticker was 56k and I feel I got a good deal plus good warranty for the truck that fits my needs. I am curious to know does anyone else’s dealer offer 10-year 100k mile power train and 3-year 36k bumper to bumper or did I make out on that?

[@clearcut6818]

Your warranty is probably worth $2k.

[@Bullfrogg2017]

Manufacturers are never going to lower their prices as long as people keep paying them.

[@garrybillick3979]

Be careful of the 10yr/100k powertrain warranties. I was looking at a dealer that offered one (think it may have been “Forever warranty”). Some of them require you to purchase EVERY maintenance recommendation that the dealer makes from the dealership, meaning that of the dealer says you need to replace your air filter for $85, you can’t go to AutoZone and buy one and change it yourself, nor can you decline the engine flushes, induction services, etc. While the vehicle manufacturer can’t deny coverage if you don’t perform maintenance at a dealership or for not doing dealer recommended services, the extended warranty companies CAN and WILL. Just be sure of the “powertrain warranty” coverage you are getting and check the numbers on your buyer order carefully and make sure they aren’t sneaking its cost in somewhere.

[@michaelstout7652]

Right

[@lambdee7006]

They gave you the old junk they can’t sale

[@MGMidget73]

I remember buying my 1980 F150 4 x4, with dual tanks in 1980 factory order, $8700!!!!. Prices insane.

[@danielburns7519]

I went to a GMC dealer and every truck had a vin no.starting with 3. made in Mexico for what they pay the Mexicans they should go for about 18,000

[@donnovicki9771]

Rust, bad lifters, poor reliability, price, what else do you need to know?

[@cgpapineau]

At some point, these ridiculous prices must have consequences, either in lack of sales or repos. What happened to getting a base full size truck in the high 20K's? I just don't know how a mid trim truck will sell in numbers to a public that can't shell out 50K. This business model will fail spectacularly.

[@clearcut6818]

Why do you think automakers will bow to consumers while they are literally the only ones with the capabilities to build trucks? Don't like the price? Try building one yourself.

[@DadDrums1015]

Because they need consumers to buy their product. . . .🤔

[@garrybillick3979]

Only lack of sales would affect the manufacturers or dealers. If a vehicle is repossessed, or doesn’t matter to the dealer or manufacturer, as they have already been paid for the vehicle.

[@dwaynesbgb]

Lmao. Inflation hits everything. But you wouldn’t understand. Also look at these trucks and compare to a 20k truck, yeah there is no comparison! These trucks are sooo much nicer, in, out, and powertrain. Especially the diesels

[@cgpapineau]

All of you are struggling to understand my point. A Ram truck from 2023 is largely unchanged from a 2019 model. The massive increase in price is not just inflation. When I mentioned a truck in the high 20's, I was referring to a BASE truck, not a loaded out truck. Trucks are now starting to stack up on dealer lots mainly because the focus has been on the high profit models. Most people can't afford a mid level truck in the mid 50K range. When the company wants to sell 800-900K in volume per year, that is a problem. Repos will impact dealers indirectly due to loan defaults. You will now have banks that will have stricter rules on financing. This will also spread to the financing arms of the auto companies. The new trucks are nice but just too expensive to maintain the desired sales volumes. We'll see who blinks first.

[@Thebestguy23]

Manufacturers are really out there saying “ Man people can barely afford to live and wages are drastically not keeping up with inflation but our base model truck should definitely start at $57,000. That is a totally reasonable price.”

[@Tusuperbis]

I bought a new 2008 Silverado LT extended cab Z71, 5.3 v8, auto, 3.73 positraction, max trailer tow pkg. MSRP was $32,605.

[@1arry11egend]

They are pricey, plus the ones I’ve seen sitting are the 4 cylinder models.

[@elche1976]

Because sheeple have been programmed. The 2.7l in the Silverado and now Colorado is more than fine with the majority of people and how they use their fashion statements, I mean trucks.

[@xavierrobinson200]

Lacking options/features at ridiculous prices

[@LESLASLESLAS]

New Silverado isn’t selling? Must be why I see hundreds of them everyday? I drive about 630 miles a day for work, and I can tell you with absolute confidence that the new Silverado is selling just fine.

[@nathanb4806]

I have an old 2003 Silverado 2500 and I love it. The stock engine is still really strong at 260000 miles

[@Scott-jf1nh]

2021 Mercedes Sprinter was $60K. It is a crew and really nice inside. It can easily hold twice as much cargo, almost 3 times -any large pickup. Seats 5. Diesel. Tows 5000lbs. too.

[@hangdogdaddy38]

Just got my Frontier Pro4X fully loaded. Sun roof, heated seats, steering wheel. Fender sound system. The works. 44,000. And the Titan Pro4X you can get for 54,000. Not enough people consider Nissan. Great value for the price.

[@cle_roknn3742]

Well that explains a little bit. The manufacturers are selling less trucks, so they just charge more for them. Basically it’s a shell game, they get the same money coming in, just from jacking the prices up instead of selling the same number.

[@milesff7]

I have an 02 2500hd Silverado. I’m basically doing a frame on restoration, because I’ll get the truck I want for way less than buying new. I want a decent/comfortable vehicle that I can take off road, and do a Lowe’s run in. Not a luxury vehicle.

[@meikasroom851]

I just Bought a new 23. Its an LT2, and only missing 3 features that would make it an LTZ. The price on the sticker was 57k. I paid right at 63k out the door. Only 55 miles when i took it home. For work im an Automotive Technician and the dealer even gave me some pdf print outs that the techs use so i can properly maintain my Silverado myself. Yes its over priced, really it is. However they really did work with me to get the payments where i want them, and gave me the tools to keep her rolling. I personally had a great experience. Champion Chevrolet in Athens Al.

[@quincekreb6798]

Sure glad we got ours in 2020, a Silverado 1500 RST Z71 in September 2020 at about $53,000 with a $5,000 incentive!! 👍

[@kpd3308]

My 2018 1500 LT Z71 4wd 5.3 liter crew cab stickered at 52k but went out the door at 38k. I think some people were waiting for the 2019. Just FYI.

[@dalezesiger9873]

Hey, that is where I bought my brand new 2018 Ford F-150 Lariat (LHM Ford dealership obviously)! I bought it just before the craziness. Got a fully loaded Lariat with a slight lift to accommodate nicer tires and wheels - NO EXTRA charge, military discount and ZERO % interest, 40 something K out the door...paid it off in no time! It has been an awesome truck, absolutely love it. I feel so lucky to not be shopping in this insane market.

[@watermenjohn4574]

Yeah before you buy any new truck from GM have the AFM/DOD delete done before you buy. Have after market lifters put in too. It’s worth the expense to have it done before the truck gets any miles.

[@brucesarver9328]

Well - really demand also depends on how long the trucks recently purchased are kept by owners. I kept my 2002 Silverado for 12 years before replacement.

[@jeffhartson9203]

I bought a 1993 Ford F-350 crew cab off the lot in 1993. At that memorable time I paid only 25k out the door. The salesman I worked with told me this was a good deal, because in the not to distant future I would have to pay over 50k for the same truck. And this was back in 1993. He knew something. I just know it,

[@edkitner8276]

I have a 2016 Silverado and will keep it until either I am dead or it completely falls apart! Way to much junk I do not need on them now!

[@rayphillips332]

I know why displacement on demand because they have 4cly 6 cly and 8 cly so if that if want an 8cly then you should get 8cly and so on .