Benjamin Butterworth: Woke Culture HAS NOT Gone Too Far - 8/8 | Oxford Union

[@alementary4065]

"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous." - George Orwell

[@philosonic]

George Orwell was a democratic socialist, so I am assuming you are supporting "woke culture." By the way, George Orwell had a hard time finding publishers that would publish left-leaning views. So discrimination in the publishing industry and the general attitude that people do not want to work with people who have very different views from their own is nothing new at all. Conservatives have a long history of being some of the worst abusers of cancel culture. They are literally trying to cancel cancel culture. They are absurdly stupid.

[@alementary4065]

@@philosonic champion gaslighter. Congratulations. Now hush, dunce.

[@philosonic]

@@alementary4065 Oh please, do not pretend you are not a philistine by quoting Orwell.

[@alementary4065]

@@philosonic Oh, please (notice the correct punctuation), do not pretend you are wise because you dismiss Orwell. While Orwell nominally considered himself a socialist, it had a far different meaning for him that what is commonly associated to the bellends of today, and he absolutely loathed authoritarianism, which seems to be the mantra you subscribe to.

[@philosonic]

@@alementary4065 How have I dismissed Orwell? You address nearly nothing I have said except a petty grammar remark. Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil war alongside communists and socialists against Franco fascism. He was very much a social justice warrior. Just read his Burmese Days, Road to Wignan Pier, and Homage to Catalonia. You do not know any of this stuff because of right-wing propaganda.

[@Bedhead1967]

Anyone who didn't see him on Piers Morgan's show needs to watch those episodes. He claimed to be against cancel culture, but tried to get Piers fired from his job and removed from social media. He also told the trans guests what they must think about trans issues. This is the face of the woke scumbaggery.

[@Ondemas]

Telling minorities what they should think (and chastising them if they don't) is the thing that made me realize woke culture is messed up. Made it really clear that they don't truly care about the minorities; they care about people fitting into their narrative and supporting that narrative. As soon as you stop supporting the narrative, your victim status counts for nothing.

[@backintimealwyn5736]

I detest him every time I see him, on every subject. I find him twisted, lacks empathy , manipulative, can be very condescending and cruel. The way he compared Constantine to Vladimir Putin, that's a low blow, and he does that constantly . He really embodies what's going too far with "woke" , psychopaths love it.

[@stanbalo]

Piers Morgan and him tandem is always funny. Piers has a soft spot for him even if they have opposing views

[@Bedhead1967]

@@stanbalo I think you're right.

[@Truthsayer112]

As Piers said, “The problem with the woke brigade is they’re never even remotely tolerant themselves”

[@leod1258]

"Being woke is being polite". Politeness should not be mandated by laws, and people should not have their lives destroyed for being "impolite" i.e. not woke.

[@James_36]

"she deserved it" hardly polite to someone losing their livelihood is it? you see how they lie about how nice they are lol

[@CoryTheRaven]

The irony being that the woke are virtually defined by how impolite they are. They're awful people, who justify their impoliteness under the guise of social justice. Even "social justice" itself has come to mean "I get to be an @$$hole to you because of your demographic categories."

[@LuisCarruthers]

It doesn't look very polite when 6'4" mentally ill men with blue hair are trying to beat up women for discussing women's rights.

[@louisrifat2647]

Well said! Just what I was thinking.

[@formulaic78]

There is nothing wholeheartedly polite about wokeness as it is an ideology. It's like calling being Christian being polite. Yes if you follow that ideology most of your actions may be polite, however you will also accept atheists being condemned to hell for infinity, despite choosing to be atheist over Christian being the more logical choice in the modern world.

[@CoryTheRaven]

"You can be woke and funny"... I'm still waiting for an example.

[@Pirate_King72]

This line itself is a joke or I guess it's the only funny joke a woke person can make.

[@RevoVansen]

I think he meant funny looking.

[@114Riggs]

It's been 7 days now, still no funny joke in sight.

[@Archie.Fisher]

Stewart Lee

[@lavaphone8227]

And you are the nobility on whose tune the world revolves and should tweak their humor for?

[@SgtBuck01]

This man is out here proving James Lindsay's point. It can never go too far because it cannot be allowed to stop, like Soviet citizens required to show an unyielding loyalty to the party.

[@stretfordender11]

He was so wrong about jk Rowling. Harry Potter wouldn't have been published today if she was starting out and expressed these views but now she is too rich to cancel

[@CurtHowland]

Perpetual revolution.

[@rashomonsan]

@@stretfordender11 That's the point, these people will never admit cancel culture exists until you're destitute and living in a skip, and even then they'll likely pivot and describe it as 'consequence culture'.

[@IK-wc4od]

you better wear that rainbow lanyard, like a yoke around your neck, a symbol of submission. and you'll do it, or its prison. welcome to today, the backlash? extinguished not by resistance.. but by economic collapse and a coming war. Me? I say, bring it on.

[@funsterkeyven]

Indeed. To be fair Progressivists almost always face an uphill battle. They must always keep being aggressive. Without this aggression and unearned confidence that "everything will be okay if you listen to us. We are absolutely sure of success" attitude, society has a tendency to regress back to the familiar.

[@alexandresilva3427]

When you start giving hormones and slicing of the breasts from children, you can pretty much surmise that things might have gone a bit too far. When you cancel comedians for cracking jokes, cancel educators for teaching science, when you have the erasure of gendered language such has women (now birthing person), breastfeeding (now chestfeeding), maybe things might have gone a bit too far. When we are asked to forgo truths that might shatter certain delusions for the sake of faux compassion, things have gone too far.

[@Pennyroyal414]

Perfectly said!!! Thank you!!

[@Rachel_M_]

And since you wrote this the terms "male" and "female" have come under attack... Good luck with your electrics and plumbing if these 2 terms get cancelled

[@TheGuiltsOfUs]

TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!

[@ColHogan-bu2xq]

@@Rachel_M_ 😅 👍 Good one ! France

[@wabbajack2]

If you can provide substantive examples of legitimate medical practitioners "slicing the breasts from children", I'll buy you a beer and/or a coffee.

[@gnoelalexmay]

Problems with this speech: He is describing traditional progressivism while supposedly defending "wokism". They are VERY different. Disparaging opponents of "wokism" is not defending "wokism". Claiming JK Rowling hasn't been the victim of the harassment & damage to her professional legacy (poorly) referred to as "cancel culture" because she hasn't 'disappeared' is utterly disingenuous and remarkably uncaring. Out of the four speakers, Butterworth was the only one who actually supports "wokism", and was the only one who didn't actually know what it is.

[@Ondemas]

Makes you wonder what counts as "disappearing" in his eyes. Would she need to die, or merely never be allowed to have a public voice again?

[@josm1481]

Use of semantics and sophistry to defend their indefensible, and often hypocritical, positions is a mark of the far left and 'woke'. It's why the 'free speech is not free from consequences' phrase is used. It allows them to justify cancelling and intimidation. When the only recourse to bad free speech is good free speech. Their claim is redundant but used to justify. The likes of Owen Jones loves to distingenuous use that phrase and also claim he's not cancelling but keeping people to account when he calls on his 1 million Twitter followers to protest to Oxford uni to get an HR man fired for liking a tweet he unilaterally decided was 'far right', which happened. Of course, when he says 'consequences' he doesn't mean better speech he means harassment and bullying of those he disagreed with which is borderline, if not literal harassment. Which is not free speech but cancel culture. As others have said, freedom of speech is the right to cover my ears so I don't have to hear what I don't want to hear. Cancel culture is covering your mouth so nobody can hear things I don't want you to hear.

[@j.c.denton2060]

He knows what it is, it's just that it benefits him and his allies to keep promoting it. We have to stop giving these people the benefit of intellectual honesty.

[@philosonic]

I am not sure how much history you know, but canceling people has been a thing in society since society began. It is natural social behavior to reject people who have ideas you find problematic. Publishers firing writers they disagree with has happened since publishing became a thing. This is nothing new, and writers have either self-published or found another publisher who likes their work. Many publishers have a brand image they want to maintain and they do not want to associate with writers who might hurt it. It is a perfectly sound business decision to "cancel" a writer they find problematic for their business.

[@j.c.denton2060]

@@philosonic If you are arguing from the same point as the speaker then there is no point in arguing with you because ultimately you are not arguing from the same core values as me. It would be pointless mental masturbation on both our parts.

[@owenmorris9306]

The answer to Toby Young at 8:30 was the key point in this debate. And summarizes the situation as a whole. ‘Cancel culture doesn’t exist’ ‘Yes it does, this woman lost her job for a tweet’ ‘Well she deserved it’

[@yessir8089]

It was indeed a shallow and shameful answer.

[@roro-mm7cc]

@@yessir8089 I really don’t understand this argument. Again freedom of speech does not = freedom from other people reacting to your speech. if you work for a company and started tweeting about how awful that company is, would you be surprised if you lost your job? Companies tend to want to project a certain brand/image to the world. So it’s not surprising that if you publicly express a view that the company views as damaging to this public image (whether that be publicly bashing the company or projecting what the majority of their customers would deem to be hateful or offensive views/opinions and therefore turn them off buying from the company), you might loose your job. The company is well within its rights to fire people for saying things it doesn’t like.. like if you go up to your boss and hurl a load of abusive language their way, does the boss have to be forced to keep you on board or does he have the right to fire you?

[@patrickh9937]

That really demonstrated how dishonest the woke are.

[@cmmndrblu]

Toby's argument is drawing a parallel between the gay rights movement and now. But the woke lot call same sex attracted people "sexual racists". Karen White, a man, was allowed into a women's prison where he raped an inmate. So are we meant to understand these facts as progress? Is it not reasonable to conclude that these may be examples of "wokeness going too far"?

[@ivanvoronov3871]

@@roro-mm7cc ok. Ill explain it like this. Freedom of speech but no Freedom from consequences? Therefore, George floyd deserved to die. After all he was a career criminal and suffered the consequences of that action right? You ate going to protect that no one deserves to die in police custody. And I agree. Thats precisely the point. The consequences are disproportionate to the offence. Woke culture has made actions what used to result in mild social consequences e.g. freinds falling out ect now result in life destroying consequences. You suffer disproportionately for the perceived or real wrong you did

[@theneverman]

Cherry-picking history regarding historically oppressed citizens and ignoring what identity politics IS historically is shameful. His ignorance, or purposeful misdirection is the true danger society faces.

[@ModeratelyAmused]

Took him less than 2 minutes to begin the misdirection. Referring to children on puberty blockers as "life saving care" and rapist males claiming their pronouns are "she/her/they" in court as "asking to be called by pronouns.

[@evgenytroshkin3455]

That's the fun of the academic debate game. You may end up in the team arguing for an issue, that you personally oppose - to give a coherent eloquent series of arguments can become hard, when unprepared. No reason to call the speaker ignorant

[@theneverman]

@@evgenytroshkin3455 I see no evidence Butterworth landed on the team opposing his already published beliefs. He is either ignorant of the danger of identity politics, or is purposefully misdirecting. That doesn't mean he is plainly an ignorant person.

[@JohnJohn-cu7nk]

@@evgenytroshkin3455 No your wrong ,he believes what he's saying.Ive seen him in the media pushing his woke narratives .

[@Mr_Fortress777]

@@evgenytroshkin3455 Sorry mate you should look at his Piers Morgan interviews - he believes what he's saying. The way Oxford debates are structured I highly doubt they'll let outside guests come in and force them to argue a position they don't believe anyway

[@kapstarkysocialpolitics7819]

The way Benji dismissed the Gillian Philip case is sickening. Someone who lost their husband a week after losing their own job and 'conservative and bigoted opinions' trump that, and it's accountability? I suspect deep down he knows he's in the wrong, but his narcassistic ego won't bring himself to admit it.

[@rashomonsan]

He also makes a living from it. 💰💰💰

[@djangoelliott]

That is one isolated example. sometimes people are unlucky, doesn't prove anything

[@inph1del]

Start the speech positioning yourself as a victim class. Then go on to talk about how you want power. On to the next mystery scooby.

[@nagillim7915]

He kinda give the game away when he tried to include yuppies in the list of victim classes.

[@LuisCarruthers]

8:53 "racist or bigoted views". Just to be clear, he means any views not shared by him.

[@Pixie2175]

What I find more disgusting is before that he associated Konstantin Kisin with Putin because he is Russian. But has the cheek to stand their smirking saying if people with racist and bigoted views meaning anyone who disagrees with them should be gotten rid out of the public space. Konstantin Kisin comes from 3 generations of soviat union slaves. His grandfather said one comment in private and he lost his job, his children where thrown out of university and he was forced to flee fo the uk. His grandmother was born in a gulag concentration camp and made to do force labour her little brother starved to death on a transportation train to siberia to do labour. Hisnother grandfather was force to work in germany in a camp as punishment and then never spoke to anyone about it for 50 years or risk being shot as a traitor to the regime and russia. Konstantin has said his mother told him off as a child because he drank milk out of the fridge. That was the only food they had for the entire day for 6 people because they loved in poverty. Woke culture is a regime that believe their views are better than other people and are their for better people everyone else should be guilt tripped for things their ancestors dod centuries ago that has nothing to do with people today unless they join the cult. They are disgusting and dangerous people with dangourous ideological views.

[@lovelyscorp79]

​@@Pixie2175you who know nothing of the culture speaking on what we called woke is laughable. You knowing absolutely nothing of the social injustices created to silent harm and kill a marginalized group of people on whom backs the nation was created is disgusting. And the delusion with which you speak so passionately about the degradation one speakers family experienced while dismissing the very group that formulated the term woke into an adjective before it was hijacked by political terrorists for that very reason is not surprising at all. The oxymoronic position you speak from exposes you. And you are the weakest link.

[@nadie2795]

He doesn't think WOKE has a voice? He's there, getting to argue his point, which is exactly what they won't allow of others. WOKE was given an inch and now they want the entire yardstick.

[@joshuataylor3550]

Just as the right have plenty of voice but continually claim they're cancelled.

[@Mr_Fortress777]

@@joshuataylor3550 Are you really going to suggest that the majority of news outlets in Western countries aren't left-leaning and don't demonize the Right?

[@adam7802]

@@joshuataylor3550 Tony Young's point went completely over your head I see. The people who actually get cancelled you haven't heard of, because they don't have power or money to fight it. Imagine saying you support JK Rowling on social media, then some rabid twitter user does a comprehensive review of your account, leaks your address and contact details to the internet and encourages people to send you and your employer abuse? That is what cancel culture is and it happens. Do you remember the story of a guy paying for a plane with the sign "all lives matter" flying over a football game in England? It was reported on in the papers, both he and his girlfriend lost their jobs as their employers were harassed. There was also the guy who literally ran a charity for disadvantaged children in Manchester, kicked out because he voice an opinion on BLM that was not liked by the left - we wouldn't of known about it had he not spoken to a reporter and garnered support against this decision. There was also recently a girl who expressed interest in a game called Hogwarts Legacy on twitter, they contacted her employer and she got sacked. I'm sure we could keep finding more stories like these if we look.

[@j.c.denton2060]

@@joshuataylor3550 There are everyday people who have had their bank accounts frozen for donating to or promoting right wing causes. This does not happen the other way around.

[@Mr_Fortress777]

@@j.c.denton2060 You're referring to what that dictator did in Canada, correct?

[@JohnTCampbell1986]

"The right created the word woke" No the left used to describe themselves as such and we adopted it to mock you for your idiocy. Get your facts straight.

[@LeSpaghet]

"You can be woke and funny". they're not laughing with you, benjamin. they're laughing at you

[@Nisfornarwhal1990]

That J K Rowling argument is so awful, words can barely describe how misplaced it is

[@samdg1234]

Care to say more? From your comment, I have no idea what you think about the argument. Are you implying that Benjamin Butterworth both represented the issue of the events surrounding the comments of the comments made by J.K. Rowling arightly?

[@Nisfornarwhal1990]

@@samdg1234 So Butterworth is setting up a strawman, or at least misrepresenting Rowling's situation and the timeline surrounding the events. Long story short, Rowling is only 'not cancelled' because she is a multi-millionaire who has kept the Harry Potter franchise close to her, as it is her own IP. Now if you've been following Rowling since she came out as a TERF (as the kids call it), she has been constantly hounded for having anything to do with Harry Potter to the point where thousands of Harry Potter fans honestly wish they could confiscate the franchise from her. Butterworth underestimates the fact that Rowling is extremely rich, which gives her leverage to speak her mind. People shouldn't need leverage to be able to speak their mind without being socially ostracised. It just isn't in good character.

[@ChristopherHayles]

"People say JK Rowling is canceled, but she's still rich and successful." "Yes, because you failed. What would it look like if you hadn't? If you can have all the consequences metered out to her without resistance, what would what look like? That's woke culture." They think the fact they failed to ruin her life proves that they weren't trying to.

[@laurent4122]

@@Nisfornarwhal1990 But to use a fundamental understanding of what cancelled means, whereby a person's oeuvre is expunged, and they cannot make a living due to certain views, I struggle to see how J.K Rowling has truly been cancelled. Her platform has not been revoked. Though her original fan base has turned on her, she is still profiting and inextricably attached to that work. I just struggle to see how she has been hindered at all. It is the same premise with Piers Morgan. He has made a career out of the fact he has been cancelled. Since being 'cancelled' he has released a book, is the host of his own show and does regular speaking events. He is earning more now then he was in previous position. I don't think a person is ever truly cancelled if they are continuing to profit from the fact that they've been cancelled.

[@samdg1234]

@@laurent4122 You > *"I struggle to see how J.K Rowling has truly been cancelled."* I think that virtually everyone would agree with you if by canceled the word is required to mean that the canceling was effective. But the actual ability of sensible addressing, "This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far" depends 100% on a univocal definition of the term. If each side of the debate defines Woke Culture differently the exercise is doomed from the outset. So to the topic of canceled. As Butterworth suggests, the so-called canceling has been substantially ineffective in the very least, at diminishing the income-generating ability of Rowling. But that it seems to me is totally beside the point. Rowling according to the metric Butterworth wants to employ, due to her business acumen and/or luck seems to be cancel-proof. But, is it imaginable, however, that Rowling might be either un-invited or even dis-invited to address audiences that she'd have been gladly welcomed to speak to if she hadn't (according to Wikipedia) stated, "In another controversial tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real" If it were in the power of "Woke Culture" to have succeeded in canceling Rowling with the level of success they've had in their most effective instances, they'd have gladly beheld the spectacle. That Rowling was not susceptible to such canceling was in no way due to the charity, leniency, or forgiving nature of the Woke Culture. I'd just as soon have had Butterworth's (or any other on that side of the house) respond to Rowling's comment from Wikipedia. That is kind of the point. Civil discussion (at least on some topics) appears anathema to Woke Culture. I'd gladly hear arguments against Rowling's statement and view. *How dare she* , doesn't amount to an argument.

[@PHILHAMILT0N]

Around minute 2:00, it goes too far when the law is changed to dictate how language is used

[@TJ-kk5zf]

right

[@electricEntity81]

Spot on

[@joshboston2323]

Philip-not the point he made though..

[@PHILHAMILT0N]

@@joshboston2323 he therefore missed the crucial point

[@vincentschicchi4647]

He is the walking embodiment of “ woke going too far “

[@earljohnson50]

Imagine waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror and that’s the cretin that’s looking back at you

[@johncassell3362]

How do they not know where there own belief system comes from? All they have to do is listen to Lindsay one time.... James just resites there textbooks back to them and they saw it's a racist strawman. The arrogance and ignorance of these kids is boggling

[@aidan5083]

James spoke right before him, it just went in one ear out the other.

[@johncassell3362]

@@aidan5083 I meant hours of James, not his patronizing pro woke mockery. It's natural to debate, they never listened to his KZbin channel is what I was saying. Olive branches are needed now, not righteous arguments. They don't know about his papers written while he was a professor. They just see name calling, we all hate that. Shitting on these woke kids only makes them dig in harder. Much like shitting on James and Jordan makes white supremacist dig in harder. These things are complex and being kind and reserved goes a long way when trying to convince people. Like spanking a child versus talking to and explaining to a child are motivationaly synonymous but in action are very different. These woke kids need conversation not ridicule. Admit

[@gnoelalexmay]

​​​@@aidan5083 think I've watched them all, but don't know what order they spoke. Toby referred to someone called Alex, and I haven't seen them... 🤔 I've seen Toby Young, Konstantin Kisin, James Lindsay and Benjamin Butterworth. Are there any more? If you could help with the order, that'd be great 👍 Thanks 🙏 EDIT: Just did a search, apparently there are a few more speakers! Cheers anyway 👍)

[@nickythompson6468]

@@gnoelalexmay if you click on the Oxford Union heading you can work from bottom to top, each heading has a number count down. 1 to 8

[@hussar6347]

@@nickythompson6468 [1 to 8], If You really intended to be helpful, then You should be more specific...1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and then 8!.

[@brotherbarnes]

This guy is ridiculous

[@dannyarcher6370]

I mean, his name is Benjamin Butterworth.

[@gnoelalexmay]

​@@dannyarcher6370yes, Benjamin Butterworth is ridiculous.

[@Chaos-aequilibratum]

JK rowling is uncancellable... but talk about the teachers and other who have lost their jobs for stating objectives truths of reality, like biology matters, and males cant be a woman... and that this absurd rethoric do affect women's rights.

[@ollie6133]

Would you happily see those who don't take those to be 'objective truths' cancelled, then? Even if the 'teachers and others' were 'stating objective truths' or falsehoods, that ought to have no bearing on whether they ought to be cancelled or not. The issue is one of supposed free speech. That we can say things free from from overt negative consequences. Not whether we happen to be right or not.

[@apebass2215]

@@ollie6133 I think a Biology teacher who refuses to accept objective biological reality probably should be "cancelled" from their job. There's a difference between truth and opinion.

[@ollie6133]

@@apebass2215 fair enough of 'objective biological reality' is anything to go by. Do you have any evidence of the sort??

[@apebass2215]

@@ollie6133 evidence of what? Biological reality? Seriously?

[@ollie6133]

@@apebass2215 can you supply me with some evidence to the effect that it is 'truth, rather than opinion' ?? I'm guessing not. But I'm willing to be surprised

[@r4wr0ck]

"You can be woke and funny," said after telling an unfunny joke that fell completely flat.

[@chrisdavie8163]

Well done to Oxford Union for allowing this debate to happen. This is democracy working.

[@thewatchtower8330]

It's amazing, yes.

[@ednamode2524]

What was the vote outcome ? Was it iye?

[@WayneLynch69]

In the U.S. the aggrieved never allow discussion of their privilege. Wimmin "occupy" over half the med & law school classes, then turn around and ONLY join existing law firms never begin them, and practice medicine for ONE-THIRD the period of male physicians. Wimmin TO THIS DAY are not required by Federal law to register for "Selective Service" military induction at eighteen...as is EVERY eighteen year old male. But MOST HILARIOUSLY, their "right" to choose an outcome after VOLUNTARILY becoming pregnant is VEHEMENTLY DENIED the father. i.e., the father providing a notarized declaration that he will not be obligated to financially support HER "choice" if she elects to go to term. "WE DIDN'T MEAN "CHOICE" LIKE THAT!!"

[@garethkirby8249]

@@ednamode2524 Looking at the likes on all 8 speeches i'd say it's resoundingly yes.

[@steve_perks7]

And yet it seems the heart of the debate was never truly addressed. The greatest threat of some culture is the ideology it promotes, which was barely mentioned.

[@gordonsulc8319]

He knows he's being disingenuous and lying.

[@funnyguyinlondon]

Exactly

[@fragfmgill]

future labour leader here

[@catfishfortesque-smythe437]

That's all they have...

[@funnyguyinlondon]

@@fragfmgill or the conservative at the rate of things are going...

[@KrissD41]

All awake people do They know full well about their lies, and they're disingenuiness, that is the very fabric of what they are without that they're just nothing but go figure, how they actually got everything they wanted. They can have people jailed for talking against them, for talking about them. 4, not calling them the proper pronouns. Ridiculous, but go figure just about every government around the world has fallen and gone for it. It's so funny how these weak people, and I say weak, because apparently, if they can't fight us, they'll just jail us or worse, at least when we were in power. And I say, we being the common sense, critical thinking, people The ones that are for everybody's freedoms, and not just our own. Yes, even PIP squeaks like this Butterworth kid should have freedoms and be able to talk. freely about How he feels even if how he feels is wrong and the rest of us disagree with him or the others, but they should not be allowed to jail or persecute us in the ways that they're getting allowed to do. Just because they feel they're right doesn't mean they are None of these people can prove anyway, shape or form that they are right and what they think and feel that's why they've made everything we think and feel against the law, that gives them the right to fully persecute us in any way they see fit. I have to say they're not all total d********, just look at what they've achieved everything practically that they've ever wanted, and what are we the people that try to live by the laws do? Oh, we just sort of take it while we're trying to find a way through law to outlaw what they're doing. And failing at it miserably, it's a sad thing to see that these people have gotten control over every government practically around the world. Now look at how the rest of us who tried to live by the law. All our lives are having to live calling them by their stupid pronouns. They've made up so many genders, it's ridiculous, we all with common sense and critical thinking, all know that there are only 2 genders. Male and female not Not he/she or she/him They/them Whatever ridiculous retarded, yeah, that's right. It's all retarded, I'm beginning to think that all of these transgender people definitely are lacking in brain cells, they might sound intelligent, but I think that was just them practicing in front of a mirror how to sound intelligent whilst listening to people that were actually intelligent They're just jealous and always have been, and always will be, because guess what? They're fakes, they're phonies, and they hate themselves because they're fake and phony, they want to outlaw the rest of us that are actually genuine and real, because they think it'll make them look a little less fake, guess what? It doesn't, it makes you look even worse. You stupid, transgender people soak it up buttercup

[@jayxavier7357]

08:55 He comes out and says people should lose their jobs because of their political or social views... And, poor, naive me, I thought McCarthyism was a thing of the past...

[@Pixie2175]

He is the one that sounds like the soviat union and Putin that he referred to. He is a really nasty person and a bully. Seen him on a number of shows and is so up his own arse it's unreal. Good on Konstatin for just shaking his head at the idiot. 😆

[@Jonas-1A]

I'm just a regular working class pleb. I listened to this, and I'm still (after a decade) not convinced. You've gone WAY too far. I happen to be gay but I find the alphabet movement has transformed into something disgusting over the past 10 years. What's the point of 'pride' anymore if we've already gained more or less equal rights in the west? Can't everyone just move on and let people live their lives? We've already achieved what we wanted. It's time to stop.

[@saint3614]

For those that have made activism their whole identity, they cannot simply stop. Rather, there must always be a new dragon to slay, for to be without one is to be without identity.

[@payasoinfeliz]

so did women with abortion rights. just because you have achieved equality under the law does not mean people arent working to undo that everyday.

[@elkabongg2716]

He is right that Woke is about power. His own position, his career, prominence, influence and standing, such as it is, has been an example of one built around an identity and standing as a Woke representative for supposedly oppressed groups who in reality now seem to be vastly over represented in many areas of public life and positions of power and influence.

[@dogwklr]

Yes, his entire existence is based on standing for the nebulous "other" who is never defined and never asked him to speak for them.

[@j.c.denton2060]

These people are no different from political Commissars who have no skills or morals other than that of serving the Party. They give everything to the Party because it will in turn give them everything back.

[@dogwklr]

@@j.c.denton2060 it will never give it back, they will also fall victim to the next generation of soldiers of the cause. It's a competition to stay on the good books and do as told

[@fragfmgill]

labour leader in the making.

[@firstnamelastname816]

I feel bad for you

[@user-gr8wi8lv9c]

It's kind of funny when Butterbut derides, with blatant jealousy, J K Rowling's fortune. Guess what, she had something of worth to offer. You don't, Ben. JK's wealth protects her from woke maggots. Other canceled people don't enjoy that. The funniest moment of this pathetic rant was when he informed people he joked. Nobody laughed.

[@ruizhang2452]

"Change" has to allow space also for those who don't want to change with you. When the "change" dictates every must change, it goes too far.

[@Chaos-aequilibratum]

also "change" isnt even by default "good"... we can change bad into worse.

[@chrisdavie8163]

@@Chaos-aequilibratum Yes, it's the same with "progressive" always being framed as a positive term. For example, I don't fancy a "progressive cancer". It can be negative too.

[@Chaos-aequilibratum]

@@chrisdavie8163 yeah exactly... or you can progress full speed into a wall... or progress into a cliff... but they dont even care about logical thinking what can we expect from them...

[@gnoelalexmay]

​@@chrisdavie8163yes. Funnily enough, the same is true with 'discrimination' supposedly being exclusively bad. Someone made the point recently that childrens' sports discriminate against adults, for obvious reasons. Which then gets into the trans-in-sports debate. Female sports categories are discriminatory - also for good reason. Repealing them is regressive, not progressive. Same with segregation by race.

[@MusicalPenguin127]

Also he talks about progress - how arrogant in your beliefs do you have to be to think that everything that came before your generation is somehow wrong or bad for society? Terms such as racism, transphobia, hate speech and so on mean nothing these days because too many people have vastly different definitions of what those things are. In the last few years we've had opinion pieces in the Guardian claiming skyscrapers are misogynistic and fitness culture was pioneered by the far right. I've argued with people online that seriously believe correcting people's spelling is racist and ableist. How is anyone meant to challenge people with beliefs like those?

[@MrBannystar]

You don't challenge them, you mock and ridicule them. If they're going to act as moral puritans in society as they're narcissistic losers then why give them the respect of trying to challenge them when a 5 year-old could do so?

[@awwwwyis6657]

@@MrBannystar One of the things this channels shows is that you should converse with people on the other side of the argument. If you mock and ridicule, noone will ever get closer to eachother. My guess is everybody here wants whats best for all, we just have different opinions on how to achieve that.

[@CristianUrsu]

@@awwwwyis6657 one cannot expect to get in touch and come to an understanding with people who say that woman with a sick husband deserved to get fired for a completely innocent tweet.

[@MJGianesello]

A lot of their rhetoric is built upon a notion, whether they realize it or not, that they're the end of history, that they are the yardstick against which to judge all of human history because they are so intrinsically good and pure that context is irrilevant, there's only the degree of moral purity as defined by them and how much anything measures up to it. They literally do not conceive of ethics as a process which they are just the latest iteration, they just know they have the absolute truth and everything must either bow to their superiority or be broken on its altar. You need to not only agree with the premises and general principles but also agree on whatever is the new thing of the week. You could be the most progressive person ever but all it takes is one point of the agenda coming up that you don't agree with and you're instantly excommunicated. There's no degree of agreeability or space in the framework, there's only the dogma until the next form of the dogma. They are the most puritan group in society right now, they genuinely give islam fundamentalists a run for their money

[@westsideisdabest7825]

Quite funny how the ones in favour of woke culture are all well to do, educated, middle class, white men.

[@TheyCalledMeT]

let's construct a strawman, riddicule him and go to no limits with my hyperboly

[@herbertlongfellow7702]

To disagree with Graham Norton's remarks, to disagree with 'woke' ideology does not necessarily mean to be on the right. Not at all. The TRA ideology is homophobic, yet Norton won't dare comment on that. He calls JK Rowling 'problematic'. Well, I call him a 'disappointment'.

[@herbertlongfellow7702]

@@TryingtoTellYou i didn't write that JK Rowling has ever said anything homophobic. I wrote that much TRA ideology is homophobic.

[@TryingtoTellYou]

@@herbertlongfellow7702 Ohhh. What does the TRA stand for then. I am so out of it

[@andrewshaw1571]

@@TryingtoTellYou Stab in the dark but im going to guess trans rights activism

[@TryingtoTellYou]

@@andrewshaw1571 OHHHH ty

[@fod1855]

You can’t be woke and funny. It’s a contradiction, the whole point is that a joke is not a joke but something that could offend someone. The people that behave like this are very real.

[@iliketoast-q9b]

...and very few

[@Lukex29]

I love how wokesters have to keep referencing historical episodes of 100 years ago almost ALL the time but the other side are referencing what is happening NOW. Wokesters are trying to wear the clothes of an activist from the past..this creates a false reality.

[@keishakwok4333]

I would think that's a good point! May I ask if you remember other incidences of wokesters referencing historical episodes? Would be useful for my future arguments

[@ForwardSynthesis]

People have been arrested for going against transgenderism on Twitter or Facebook. I wish someone had brought that up. Why is it all about job loss? They get to squirm out of that by appealing to freedom of disassociation, but the fact of the matter is that the British police are cautioning and in some cases arresting people for social media posts.

[@cioccolateriaveneziana]

Thankfully, it's only in the UK. The rest of the world doesn't have it (yet). In my country, a few people were arrested for writing something like "gas the gypsies" on Twitter. Fine by me.

[@PHILHAMILT0N]

Around minute 7:30, putin believes that food is good as an energy source. Just because Putin believes that, does that mean that others shouldn’t?

[@jayxavier7357]

Calling someone Putin's puppet is a common rhetorical scare tactic that confirms just how much the accuser has already lost...

[@cioccolateriaveneziana]

@@jayxavier7357 Of course, especially if that someone is of Russian descent. How very woke of Benjamin.

[@dannyarcher6370]

When your progress requires gaslighting in order to continue, you've gone too far. Gay rights did not go too far because there was no objective reality that the population was being forced to deny. "Trans" rights are another kettle of fish entirely.

[@TryingtoTellYou]

I almost agree with you. Universal law prohibits gay partners from being parents yet society put gay marriage on the same level as marriage. If it were marriage, why does it need the prefix 'gay' in the first place?

[@TryingtoTellYou]

@@dpcater I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?

[@dannyarcher6370]

@@TryingtoTellYou Look, I'm a conservative libertarian and I think we on the right are too precious about the term 'marriage'. What is the difference between marriage and a civil union other than the term. Matt Walsh's argument on Rogan's show was pretty weak tea. Regardless, to my mind, the state has no business being involved in partnerships between two individuals. Marriage licences are stupid.

[@TryingtoTellYou]

@@dannyarcher6370 That seems rather extreme don't you think? There is a reason marriage was invented. I don't see the problem of men running away from women disappearing anytime soon.

[@dannyarcher6370]

@@TryingtoTellYou The reason marriage was invented was to prevent us guys from killing each other for access to pussy. And you misunderstood me. I'm not saying we shouldn't have monogamy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have wedding ceremonies. I'm just saying it's none of the state's business.

[@SumThingFawful]

This was like watching Twitters greatest hits in gaslighting, cherry picking and smugness. There was nothing here but the basic npc dialog tree.

[@purdysanchez]

He just proves James' point. You can never go too far. There is no such thing. It must alway go further. Forever.

[@ollie6133]

Well they're on the same side of the debate, so that's ok. The motion wasn't do you think wokism is bad. It isn't supposed to be a debate about the value of woke culture. It was whether you think it has gone too far. James argued that it couldn't go too far because of the nature of 'criticality' (in a Kantian sense) that he argues props up wokism. Not because it was good. So, of course they agree that it hasn't gone too far. That's the point. It helps to pay attention to what the debate is about before you jump to conclusions.

[@purdysanchez]

@@ollie6133, I'm aware of what the debate was about. I was just commenting that he was unironically, sincerely making the point.

[@Chiscringle]

I want to see a similar debate that "science has gone too far."

[@darbyogill5771]

Just lies wrapped in lies by a professional victim. Riddled with vile hate and self righteousness, never trust people like this

[@questor55]

Whatever criticisms you might want to make of this fellow, at least we have to all agree that he shows tremendous courage in standing up there and telling some of the most spine-snappingly godawful non-jokes in all of Christendom. Bravo!

[@LiamLewyShepherd]

🤣

[@outofchrisworld1570]

@@dpcater he makes water look stiff

[@keithscott1957]

One has to be aware to have courage.

[@paulhancock3791]

Not courage; blinkered arrogance.

[@gordonsulc8319]

Classic motte and bailey. A term created specifically from observing arguments with leftists.

[@jimmyblanka6025]

Participation award for this one.

[@adrianqx]

Best part about wokism is it eats itself you can never be pure enough sooner or later you fail the purity test ! give it time and they will come for you Benjamin !

[@tomaszkowalski7867]

Exactly. There will always be someone more progressive for whom you will not be progressive enough. Believe me, eastern Europe has already learned this lesson. Anyone could at any time become a public enemy and in an absurd trial convicted for actions against the Communist Party.

[@simonclare100]

The gulf between Butterworth and Lindsey is enormous

[@rashomonsan]

The problem is, I guarantee Butterworth won't have listened to a word any of his opponents said and will carry on making his dishonest arguments.

[@hephep7426]

No one is against progress but wokeism is not progress but regress. When you look at how life was in ancient Rome and Greece where the whole spectrum of sexualities were practiced including beastiality and pedophilia and along with that was slavery and various forms, extreme poverty with no social safety net. It was not until Christianity took hold that society became truly civilized where the poor were looked after, the sick were healed, all children had an opportunity for education, equality was earned, not stolen like equity. Capitalism was viable for all classes of people and many people lifted themselves out of poverty!!!

[@gnoelalexmay]

These comments are almost EXCLUSIVELY negative re BB's arguments. Very reassuring.

[@brianblessednn]

Consider that youtube comments are unambiguously terrible and no place for serious debate. An echo chamber of idiocy.

[@fuckamericanidiot]

@@brianblessednn Not an echo chamber. Everyone is free to post here. It's just thay your comrades are fewer in number.

[@lastmanstanding5423]

@@fuckamericanidiot "We need to censor the 'trolls' in the YT comment section!! Then people wouldn't see how few comrades are in number." also "Remove the dislike button!" also "Cancel culture doesn't exits" /s

[@fragfmgill]

@@brianblessednn you mean the marketplace for ideas? dont worry we understand people like you never like to hear what normal people think.

[@gnoelalexmay]

@@brianblessednn Serious question... If you see this comments section as unambiguously terrible, but they are largely in agreement, how do you judge whether it is 'everyone else' that is so terrible, and not your own views?

[@adrianarchie]

Woke is freedomphobia.

[@danielclemence3689]

Pretty dreadful speech if you don't mind me saying. The problem with this speech is that it doesn't tackle the main frustrations of well-informed, educated people who are reduced to having to use the term "woke" in the first place. Woke culture represents a shift in the manner and conduct of the average person who campaigns for a right. It represents a trend where people are ultra-sensitive and agitated - where people who campaign for a right are so dogmatic that they will not listen to others. Look at Twitter, for example. It's full of aggressive one-liners which display i) no respect for others, ii) only superficial insights, iii) a one-sided argument. The way debates were conducted in previous decades were more eloquent. A good case study is the Cathy Newman / Jordan Peterson interview on Channel 4 (look it up on KZbin). It's a good example of woke-style speech vs. rational speech. People like Peterson present a very logical argument, but Newman's side often don't. I should add that most people, including myself, are absolutely fine with the trans community or any other minority group who feels they've been subject to "discrimination". What I'm against is a kind of "reactive", aggressive and irrational style of discourse, where people are disinterested in hearing the full debate on an issue. Actually, I could argue the OxfordUnion is a pretty good example: do you invite any speakers from the Right on your channel? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like it. I loathe the binaries "Right" and "Left", since anyone can see that the truth is spread out over the spectrum in varying degrees. Reducing topics to opposites is simplistic and one of the main reasons humans struggle to discuss issues coherently. Important point: you mention minority groups want to claim power back and that "cisgender men" are annoyed about it. Actually, no - that's not true. They're annoyed about the fact that the minority groups are insulting them in the process and calling them names like misogynist, racist, patriarchal, fascist etc. - a VERY common trope used as a generalising term for normal men in society. Lastly, many people believe the West is "coming down", as you word it, because of the breakdown of traditional values, which have held humanity together for millenia, as backed up by evolutionary models. Abnormal conditions (i.e., now) result in abnormal behaviour. Surprise, surprise.

[@teleincision1]

This person made two blatant logical mistakes, the first when he said 'some previous people were called bad names and they were right. We are now called bad names, thus we are right'. Not everybody that was called names in the past ended up being right. This is like saying that Galileo was called crazy but he ended up being right, so my grandma that had schizophrenia and was hearing voices, which was also called crazy, was right. Second mistake is a famous 'guilty by association' heuristic, when he said 'he'd never want to be on the same side of a debate as Putin'. A famous example of this heuristic is 'oh you are vegetarian? Do you know who else was vegetarian? Adolf Hitler. That's bad'.

[@josm1481]

Got a minute in and he's started with a lie. Wokes comes from the black nationalist/equality movement and was simply taken up by the bourgeois white left to align with them. I first saw the word being unironically used in the Graun, at a time when even Graun readers complained they hated it BTL.

[@j.c.denton2060]

None of them ever addressed where the term "woke" comes from which is black slang for being awake to something.

[@-JustHuman-]

It's funny he said I won't be the one on the side of Putin. But he is actually exactly like him, you are either with the regime or you need to be removed.

[@Pixie2175]

I love Konstantin just shaking jmhis head at it. I have seen this guy on a few shows. He is so repulsive and arrogant he thinks him self way more important than he is. Has as much charm as a door. I watch Konstantin on triganomatry on KZbin he is amazingly intelligent.

[@Aspartame69]

They can use whatever name they want. They cant force me to call a bearded 6ft man, a womans name.

[@robertobarros9946]

Most people are woke. You all just got too extreme to the point that the old woke became the new generation of conservatives.

[@sixer6er]

Nobody said Rowling was canceled. She’s too powerful. Like Gervais. It’s the less powerful that get canceled

[@Mark-sc4bu]

I find Benjamin Butterworth's arguments largely disingenuous and misrepresentative of the actual facts when it comes to 'Wokeness'. He did not actually answer Toby Young's valid question, because he has no valid response. He completely sidesteps the key point raised by many of the opposition bench - it's not WHAT 'Wokeness' purports to support that is the problem - it is HOW they choose to do it. He reveals his true motivations when he talks about power being the main driver. He is exactly the sort of person who will suppress free speech and all that it represents, in the name of an ideology that has, frankly, completely lost the plot - and as mentioned in this debate - largely lost public support. The vast majority of people don't respond well to threats, and will ultimately reject any movement that actively promotes fear as its primary tool for getting its own way.

[@Polyrage2]

9:16 "Really this question is an argument about power, and who has the right to claim it." Like JB Peterson said, it sounds more like a confession than anything else.

[@johnhewitson001]

So caught up in his righteous indignation, he completely misses the point and fails to construct an argument based on anything else other than the opinion of his own echo chamber.

[@gmcq8623]

Utterly cringeworthy speech! Gaslighting. Appalling jokes that didn't work. Misconstruing cancel culture as a mere 'necessary realignment'. It's far more dangerous than that...and they're certainly not for their own accountability. And equating past reasonable human rights demands with possible future excesses is to wholly misunderstand (possible willfully) the aims of the ideology. And as for his idea of 'progress'. Change is not only that, and certainly not when it comes to Woke dogmas.

[@livefreesharingtheaudits1937]

piers is right this man is the wokest MAN on earth

[@maxxwellbeing9449]

I think he may be just a male, definitely not a man.

[@r8m8s8]

James Lindsay is incredibly well researched, and this guy just talked about celebs and social media etc

[@j.c.denton2060]

Their talking points are getting more stale and dismissable as time goes on. They have burnt through a lot of their good will and credibility over the past decade and now have to switch to hard power in order to maintain control.

[@nagillim7915]

Celebs and social media is all they care about because it's not about justice but power. The smallfolk are irrelevant. Just collateral damage. Beneath their notice. They are there to do as their social betters tell them and shut up. Orwell talked about these people in the 1930s in the road to wigan pier. They don't so much care for the downtrodden as they hate that there are people holding power over them. They want to be the ones with the reins and the downtrodden are just a means to them gettinf that end.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

Stalin: Everyone in the USSR has a Constitutional Right to Free Speech. They do not however have a right to be free from the consequences of their speech.

[@biblicalworldview1]

He demonstrates the Motte and Bailey technique perfectly. "We just want them to have life saving healthcare" is the Motte in this case.

[@Rachel_M_]

Imagine my shock at finding out I have no right to healthcare, especially after I had sinus surgery last month to remove an infection that could have pitentialy spread to my brian and been fatal if left untreated... (I'm trans by the way)

[@biblicalworldview1]

@@Rachel_M_ Hi, Rachel. I am not sure what your response has to do with what I wrote. That being said, I'm glad you were able to have the sinus surgery and hope you're doing well now.

[@brotherxam1903]

@@biblicalworldview1 it's another Motte

[@brotherxam1903]

@@Rachel_M_that's correct, that medical treatment is not controlled by law as to who can get it, or if it's available

[@Rachel_M_]

@@biblicalworldview1 hi. My comment was in support of your comment, tinged with a little sarcasm towards the speaker's motte and Bailey. It's been a while, but I hope that makes sense.

[@JasonAndrew1973]

Here's the litmus test. Would you want people to get fired for their jobs, for your political points? I wouldn't. Should people try to get Woke folks fired from their jobs when you don't agree with them?

[@emilyjh75]

He essentially restates James Lindsay - there is no end to "progress." It's the rationalist, absolutist argument: our way is the best way, and all should embrace it, or else.

[@bobthebuilder9553]

This man will never be able to prove his point. Know why? He does not have one.

[@Mr_Fortress777]

This guy has been torn apart by people like Piers Morgan for God's sake. It's like he didn't even bother to reflect on those talking points and is regurgitating the same baseless, emotional arguments and expecting everyone to just go along with it and say "hey this guy's been repeating the same thing multiple times I guess we should just accept it at this point".

[@schmerzmeister3980]

He’s not making an argument, it’s pure stories and name dropping. Sad.

[@hope9935]

Your grandma had the right to single sex spaces, to be referred to accurately as a woman and to not be coerced into untruths like calling a man a woman. Most women have been flashed at and this is now a crime that is impossible to convict due to the irrational notion of a “female penis”. 1 in 3 women are the victims of sexual assault and males are 98% the perpetrators, this is irrespective of how they identified. Unfortunately any granddaughters of hers alive today do not have the rights that she had. I believe she perhaps shouldn’t have been so polite

[@b0sH]

You can be woke and funny? I see no evidence of this within the debate.

[@symmetricat188]

I lost count of how often the word "power" had been envoked.

[@willardaustria]

It's all that's left without truth. That's the postmodernist influence on wokeness.

[@ThePhobos100]

it hasn't gone far enough for Benjamin Buttholeworth

[@briandfox16]

Woke wasn't a term created by the "opposition", it was created by it's proponents and now they try to distance themselves from the term because it has been so reviled.

[@kimbirch1202]

Why anyone should care about others sexuality, gender identification , or who they choose to marry, is beyond reason. They could just as easily mind their own business.

[@patriciafredal6308]

3:25 Objecting to the notion “Now it’s getting much too wild” assumes that no situation should ever be considered too wild. How about when we discontinue evidence-based decision-making in the medical community so as not to offend social agendas, which then harm or worsen an individuals health longterm? All in support of activism for activism sake. Yes, there IS such a thing as too far and WOKE is an oxymoron and a sarcastic label that makes sense

[@clarissathompson]

Can you be be a bit less generic and give more specifics on the effect of “woke culture” on the medical community and how it operates?

[@Teasehirt]

@@clarissathompson B BA B BA B BA Woke Police.

[@clarissathompson]

@seraeggobutterworth5247 well, I live in a country with universal healthcare, as do the speakers in this video. A medical system with a for profit model, like the US, is obviously going to be more focussed on selling services than providing actual healthcare. That’s not to say that healthcare workers are to blame, administration and managers have to ensure a profit margin. If these practices are indeed happening, it’s marketing, not “wokeness”. Expecting a big business model of for-profit care to put ethics over profit is a pipe dream. They want to sell you what you want.

[@alistairmonro]

@@clarissathompson like new cars and solar panels

[@clarissathompson]

@seraeggobutterworth5247 well, it’s been awhile since my step kids were in school, though my eldest grandchild will be starting preschool in our school district next year so I will be sure to see what the deal is here. Though, one of the advantages of living in a ski town in the mountains, people are generally active and health conscious here and there are always lots of sports programs in our community.

[@firstsecond9569]

He would never want to be on the side of Vladimir Putin in a debate. What a stupid statement. If Putin says the earth is round, would he want to argue that it is flat?

[@Pixie2175]

It disgusting that the only thing he could say about Konstantin after he made an amazing speach was to associate him with Putin because he is russian and then woke people have the cheek to tell other their racists and bullies. Konstantin is an incredibly intelligent and kind person. He is on Triganomatry with Francis foster on KZbin. I have seen this lad before on tv he makes my blood boil.

[@just4visit]

ignorance of this dude about matters beyond his backyard not to mention other countries and cultures is... profound

[@Pixie2175]

Konstantins family where slaves for 3 generations in the Soviet union. His grandma was born in a gulag and he little brother died of starvation on a train to siberia. His grandad was sent to germany as a labourer and never told anyone for 50 years when he got back because you where automatically a spy and a traitor and where shot. His grandad was sacked his kids got thrown out of university and they lost all their money he made one commemtnin private to somone and the soviat goverment found out. He eventually had to flee to the uk to join Konstantin and his grandma.

[@just4visit]

@@Pixie2175 resentment does not allow to be ignorant

[@ianmckenzie9719]

Here is a rational debate...my 2 cents is cancel culture is very much occurring and is a very bad thing. Ask Jordan PETERSON.

[@robinfaulkner9945]

Mind blowing argument, imo essentially proved the value of the oppositions points.

[@markkavanagh7377]

Winning is never his point, getting the attention is.

[@Steinberg707]

It's a bit awkward how this penguinian boy keeps claiming to represent the transgender people while persons from that group have repeatedly stated they do not agree at all with his views.

[@jamessparkes5492]

So if someone is pushing views onto others such as "a biological male can be a biological girl" (or vice versa) or exposes minor's to explicitly adult material (which is illegal) to then be fired and made an outcast of society is simply " held accountable"?!

[@lovelyscorp79]

If you call a business or corporation not wanting to be associated with someone who chooses behind close doors to partake in such behaviors accountability ....absolutely. the autonomy doesn't extend to just the woke. It is the woke who are pointing out what people should be accountable for. It is the autonomy of individuals and businesses to decide I chose not to have someone in my business who holds those views. It is not a representation if who I am or who I do business with. Now mind you I don't believe in cancel culture. In the sense that person is exiled from society. But I definitely hold the idea everyone has the right to say what they will or won't align with. That is my right as the owner of the business. But from your statement alone the individual should be more worried about hiring an attorney. Cause the law does not overlook such illegal matters involving children. Being woke is soon to be the least of his problems.

[@individual7046]

Ever looked at someone and realized evil exists in this world?

[@James-ip1tc]

The gay rights movement of the 70s was filled with disagreement and debate over tactics, agenda and strategy none of those conversations they had then would be acceptable today in any social justice movement.

[@moichten]

This guy would be destroyed in a back and forth debate. He's clearly not living on this planet.

[@swifty64]

"It can tick off Toby Young, but I don't think that's a problem". What a mask off, ominous moment. Did he really just say out loud that he is fine with people who disagree with him dying...tells you everything you need to know about the 'caring, polite' woke people....

[@Humanaut.]

J.K. Rowling got rich & successful BEFORE they tried to cancel her. Thank God for that. What he calls "accountability" is "us being allowed to punish you for anything we deem an offense, namely, transgressing our world view". Not everything labelled as progress is actually progress.

[@ferguswood4065]

What a shockingly irrelevant argument. He didn’t address any points of contention: CRT, Identity politics, or hormone and sex change advocacy for minors. This was a sweepingly general argument with mediocre rhetorical flare at best.

[@richardabbot8724]

Ah, progress. The greatest illusion of all time. There is no such thing as progress, there is only change, which benefits some and not others.

[@RevoVansen]

It amazing to watch the lack of self-awareness in these woke speakers.

[@Captain-Cat]

0:44 "Woke is a nonsense redundant term that was invented by people who have always had a problem with social justice" Benjamin contradicting and erasing a speaker on his side Yasmin Benoit who before him gave an explanation about the history and legacy of the term 'woke' in black culture and included an example of the the term being used in the black community as far back as the 1930s by Lead Belly after a performance of a song about racism in the justice system (Yasmin Benoit | This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far - 4/8 | Oxford Union - 1 minute 6 seconds). I want to be petty and say "how very white privileged of Benjamin to disregard and correct a black woman on her own culture and rewrite black history for her" but I won't.

[@ollie6133]

Originally the term 'woke' was, as Yasmin points out, first used by the black community. But it has more recently been weponised by anti-progressives (possibly from internet meme culture) to have something 'tangible' to rally against that can define anything with a progressive agenda and so has a broad scope - thus it is easy to hit the mark. This is like a reversal of the term 'queer'. 'Queer' was originally used as a slur against the gay community, but it was subsequently adopted by the gay community to reduce its potency against them. So, it isn't quite as simple as Benjamin contradicting Yasmin. They're both talking about different periods of the term 'woke'.

[@Captain-Cat]

@@ollie6133 he literally states categorically that the term was invented by people who take issue with social justice. Not hijacked. Invented. That is what he said specifically. Which contradicts Yasmin's statement that is has been used in the black community for generations. He didn't Your defense of him is incorrect.

[@ollie6133]

@@Captain-Cat Fair, if that's what he said. I was being more charitable, however. In principle the two instances of 'woke' are not incompatible. And so it's a minor point that he said that. Although, yeah, he is wrong to say that it was invented, the term 'woke' was brought into popular consciousness when it was weaponised in more recent times. He would have been better to have said it was revived as a weapon against progressivism rather than invented. It doesn't really affect his overall point though.

[@John__-ie3od]

What is he sniffing? Is he high? I mean, if it's deep breaths, is he so deconditioned that he is out of breathe from talking?

[@neezduts69420]

Oh god this kid... 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[@semikolondev]

"istandwithjkrowlings" is a bigoted views? Sir, it's an opinion. She shouldn't be fired from a job for this.

[@leahdurkan28]

Not an intelligent young man.

[@urbanberg8034]

Simple question: Did the French Revolution go too far? Did the Russian Revolution go too far? Did Mao's Revolution go too far? Such a stupid argument. As if willingness could not lead to catastrophic outcome.

[@nf6386]

This guy’s attempts at humour keep falling flat, and I wonder if it’s less due to his clumsy delivery and more that the audience don’t have confidence that he won’t shriek victimhood and oppression if they accidentally laugh at the wrong comment. A lot of his claims are genuinely laughable, but I doubt that was intended.

[@PHILHAMILT0N]

Around minute 8:30, the standard of bigotry is subjective

[@rajsingh-cf9lb]

Bejaman is the CEO of woke my pronoun is CORRECT

[@WhoStoleMyAlias]

I believe the correct term is freedom of expression, which does not stop at speech but also includes arts. It also means that you have the right to feel offended and consequently the right to express that feeling. Feeling offended does however not mean that you may tear down or otherwise damage art because A) it is vandalism and thus punishable by law, and B) it is censorship and thus denial of other people's right to expression. In effect, being woke is nothing different from being Taliban.