Benny Morris: You cannot rely on one sentence in Ilan Pappe's book

Professor Benny Morris commenting the work of Ilan Pappe after a lecture given in Norway 6 June 2009.

[@AdrienLegendre]

Benny Morris provides an enormous number of citations in his books. He is credible.

[@ExJewAntiKhazarWesternAsian]

If this is your example I bealive now to Pappe.

[@fafolaw]

Why?

[@lamegalectora]

There is no better deaf person than he who does not want to jear

[@bryanmurray9846]

Why were they experimenting with some sort of tear gas on dogs? What was the goal of this research?

[@MdeKok-gv7wg]

Good question.

[@grahamgriffiths6099]

He picks out one small example which may or may not be accurate, and does not mention the scores of other incidents, all of which are backed by acknowledgement and references. The Tantura massacre, for example, is backed not only by eye witness accounts, but by allusions in the Hagana archive. For a supposedly professional historian to claim that the whole of another's work to be lies, with very few concrete examples, is not at all impressive, Professor Morris.

[@piscagherila9981]

The Alon Schwartz documentary and the debunking of the Alon Schwartz documentary accidentally uncovered how much of a lie the "tantura massacre" actually is. The eye witnesses testified to the killing of soldiers and not mass murder of civilians, and no killing of civilians is "alluded to" in any Haganah documents. This is a nonsense interpretation of a single word.

[@Limud123]

Lol the fact that you belive tantura shows you are retarded

[@robertbrynin9919]

How different it would all have been if the Arab Palestinians, having been given their state in 1921 in 76% of Mandate Palestine (renamed Transjordan), had not gone on to reject a second state in the 24% of Palestine that was left, when the Jewish Palestinians accepted UN Resolution 181. A tragic mistake of epic proportions that they are still paying for.

[@shainazion4073]

They were first offered 80% of the land in the Peel Commission in 1937, they turned it down because they didn't want the Jews to have the 20% left (which amounted to 4.5% of the total Mandate lands). Look up the British offer to the Arabs in 1937!!

[@NavAK_86]

Why should the Arabs accept anything on their inhabited lands for a colonial settler movement? @@shainazion4073

[@qlmoe]

Yeah no joke, the non-monolithic Arabs didn’t want to be displaced. Who would’ve thought

[@yjw5580]

Israel always worden against this in any way possible. And bc they controlled the media the last 60 years or sobthe could control the narrative. NOT ANYMORE

[@michaelhussey440]

Yes. And notice the way in which the rejection of a two state solution by Netanyahu in recent days is reported by all media without adding the point that Hamas has ALWAYS rejected the two state idea , because it wants to put the whole region under Islamic rule '' from the River to the Sea.''

[@nevskixx]

I remember you acknowledging quite clearly that you partly held Arafat responsible for being a bad negotiator. Correct?

[@RS-uh7rz]

A telling example. Not an "error". Not a "mistranslation". Clearly, an intent to mislead. I.e., a lie.

[@nevskixx]

I have read Hannah Arendt's book many years ago. Your point? (I can guess, but I do not want to be too presumptuous).

[@sparkvideos77]

He said the dogs were blinded not blinded for 24hours - this is the best you can come up with to discredit Pappe? And “so called” Arab historians …..

[@joestupid7810]

It's an example

[@123456789987o]

There are many more examples. Morris wrote more down in an article. It shouldn't happen if you're a historian, which job it is to critically examine sources and report on the content accurately.

[@darkfielddiggermicrosafari]

Do you seriously think that this is the only example, or event he best example he has ? I'm confident that Morris could fill a couple of lectures giving examples to back up his assertion.

[@oxyoxi3213]

​@@darkfielddiggermicrosafariAre you suggesting that he had meaningful examples but decided to waste the time on something completely inconsequential just for the heck of it?

[@nevskixx]

I agree, Some compensation of course.

[@musclesmalone]

I don't think that it can be justified to write off the entire contents of the book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine based on this one example on a point that is rather periphery to the main treatise of the book. I hope he provides more examples elsewhere to provide further support for his claims about Pappe's work!

[@123456789987o]

He does. He wrote one or more articles about Pappe, which strengthened the argument presented here. There are many many more examples of errors. Morris is completely right, that you basically always have to be suspicious, when reading Pappé's work, because you can't trust, that he gets the facts and dates right. For a historian that's pretty detrimental even if you agree with Pappé's overall narrative.

[@musclesmalone]

Can you link to any articles by Benny Morris critiquing Pappe's work because I cannot find them? @@123456789987o

[@johncollorafi257]

Benny Morris proves that there were repeated forced expulsions of Palestinians, and their land was stolen, sometimes with concomitant atrocities such as massacres. That's ethnic cleansing. It's confirmed by primary accounts such as one finds in the film 1948: Creation and Catastrophe, for which both Morris and Pappe were interviewed. The truth is not dependent on the accuracy or lack of it in secondary sources like Pappe.

[@oxyoxi3213]

Yeah, to point out a mistranslation of a term that has no impact regarding subject matter whatsoever... Sounds desperate TBH

[@kingfillins4117]

Benny is a proper historian. Of course he covers the fact that there were some small massacres and war crimes, though his point is there was no top down plan. He found that the main reason for displacement was the war itself. About 100,000 Arabs were evicted and 600,000 fled the war. A war waged by Arab states. So it is Arab states who are actually responsible for most of the refugees. But they won’t take them.

[@charlesmcguffin2979]

“Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,” -Ilan Pappe Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999.

[@DaniDaWolf]

So that’s why he lied in his books?

[@socialistrevolution8795]

@@DaniDaWolf He only showed him to lie on one instance. Also it was not independently verified, Pappe also speaks Hebrew, so it is Pappe's translation vs Morris'.

[@DaniDaWolf]

@@socialistrevolution8795 “he only lied once we know” Is not the defense you think it is…

[@gshunnar]

"for dog lovers it sounded awful" he said. obviously didn't sound awful when used on Palestinians

[@scottbuchanan9426]

Er, he said that gas was not used in the 1948 war. Did you mishear him?

[@nevskixx]

Conversely, if indeed it was supposed to be ethnic cleansing, how come those who stayed behind were not pushed out?

[@deficrypto1234]

Ethnic cleansing refers to majority of the population being annihilated, their culture erased or driven out. 150,000 is a small percentage of 1.4 million Arabs.

[@nevskixx]

@@deficrypto1234 I think you will find that the numbers of refugees were around 750,000, equivalent in number to the jews driven from their homes in Arab lands, most of whom settled in Israel.The point I was making to the person, who has deleted his account, was that there was no plan to ethnically cleanse the Arab population.Indeed Pappe is stuck when he continues to argue that the policy is ongoing when the Arab population today constitutes 20% .The Arab population has exponentially grown since 1948.

[@deficrypto1234]

@@nevskixx Ur talking about two separate events. We dont say '6 million died in the holocaust' and '20 million Africans died in the slave trade'. These r events with different factors. Arab Jews fall into the category of flight, evacuations, expulsions, departure and migration. To use the phrase 'driven out' is a misrepresentation. Iraq is the exception of outright expulsions due to Zionist attacks in synagogues, Arab nationalism and Jewish dual loyalties.

[@deficrypto1234]

@@nevskixx There is a trail of documentaion from Theodor Herzl, Jabotinsky, Dubnow clearly demonstrating that 'transfer' was inevitable and necessary to establish a Jewish majority and sovereignty. The first major expulsions were as before the 1920's where the Jewish National fund put restrictions on Arab farmers and drove them off the land in a Farmer tenant economy. Sorry the literary history including Plan D disagrees with u. Caesarea was De-Arabised as early as Feb 1948. From Nov 1947, Arab villages were depopulated and not allowed to return

[@deficrypto1234]

@@nevskixx Please, Arabs are not a monolithic group. So, its best to be specific as possible. Egyptians are not Syrians who are not Lebanese.

[@birdworldist]

Perfidious izruhl

[@johns1139]

That diary example was such a weak argument. It’s really just a straw man argument and he really didn’t get to the root of his differences with Pappe.

[@birgittavanblitterswijk6998]

He is right Ilan Pappe has misrepresented a lot of facts in his book. And yes, I am able to judge this.

[@Carlos-fc4xz]

It was an example, he goes more in depth in articles he wrote about Ilan's books.

[@Limud123]

What he brought up one example. There are many others. You people are so ridiculous I can't stand you. This example forms the basis for the entirety of papes argument

[@rulllar]

Good video. Except that even Morris has not been entirely accurate. Karsh has been critical of the so-called "new historians" for their use (or he views misuse) of facts and their attempt to discard their misrepresentations by sticking on many references in an attempt to create legitimacy. New historians have been highly critical of him, but that is no surprise. What I find odd is how similar the political views of most new historians is, which makes me question their interpretation.

[@piscagherila9981]

3/6 of what basically make up the main "new historians" have openly engaged in blatant historical revisionism (shlaim, sand, pappe).

[@autisticscooterdriver]

The new historians don't really claim to have political views, first and foremost. They study history and facts using established scientific methods.

[@LuisDiuk]

No, they dont, they are propagandist of the Left bias by their irrational empathy for Palestine to fabricate narratives against Israel@@autisticscooterdriver

[@lamegalectora]

Benny Morris is the most respected historian, his books are a model of impartiality and decency. I take his point very seriously.

[@nevskixx]

First of all it's a shallow point. It generalised statement about Jews who tried to save Jews but failed. Sadat wa indeed a Nazi sympathiser in the earlier years, but in later years he saw a vision for Egypt and he was the leader of Egypt who courageosly took a step to end conflict and regain the Sinai. The agreement cost him his life. Muslim Brotherhood to thank for that who are no Jew lovers .

[@nevskixx]

Dream, you are showing a very weak hand I'm sorry to tell you.Prior to WWll 1/3 of the pop of the Czech lands was ethnic German. After the war 3million were expelled leaving only 40000 (0.5%)in today's C Republic. That is what happens when a government systematically expells an unwelcome ethnic group. Arabs today makes up 20% of Israel's pop.

[@abdelaleem4026]

Morris himself acknowledged Palestine had been "partially ethnically cleansed".

[@meshzzizk]

@bths87 I agree that the example adduced is a pretty flimsy justification for dismissing Pappe. But your other comment isn't accurate and shows a serious lack of familiarity with scholarship on Palestine-- Morris has debated Finkelstein several times (on Russian TV, the Democracy Now radio show, and in print (Journal of Palestine Studies)). Finkelstein's books are loaded with quotations from Morris's works and Finkelstein's 'Image-and-Reality' is in Morris's bibliography for Righteous Victims.

[@anomarretsuk]

yaki,..shame on you Benny Morris

[@nevskixx]

Oh?

[@nevskixx]

I have news for you. Morris has a much clearer perspective than Pappe. Listen Dream of what he says about mistranslating Ben Gurion and asserts something to attack Israel. I have told you already what Pappe has had to say about not telling the truth . It is lucky we meet again to discuss this very point. Don't be hoodwinked by an untrustworthy historian. It's nothing to do with Morris' Zionism or otherwise and I told you he is not racist and why.

[@nevskixx]

The Palestinian struggle as I see it is much less about wanting a state but wanting what the Palestinians will not be given Dream. Today's leaders play the long game. Crazy in my view since tthis brings no hope. Antisemitic certainly. Irrational , probably less so. Someone is making money. Unless there is an unequivocal acceptance of Israel's right to exist, this state of affairs will continue.

[@deficrypto1234]

There is no basis in international to accept a 'states right to exist'. It really has no meaning as States simply exist. They come and go. Israel signed two treaties, one with Egypt and one with Jordan. Neither required the need to accept 'Israels right to exist'. Yet, there has been relative peace. Gandhi said' I accept the reality of Pakistan but not the legitimacy'. Its best not to bring subjective opinions as a framework for ensuring peace.

[@SuperErikRoss]

truth hertz donut

[@nevskixx]

I'm inviting you to reveal your point?

[@fondueeundof3351]

If Morris' example is the only one he has, or if he thinks this is the most important example, then I'm sorry, this is just a tiny detail and you can't say Ilan Pappe is lying across the board on these grounds. Please provide more, and more substantial examples

[@Carlos-fc4xz]

If you'd read articles written by Benny Morris about Ilan's book you would see it's not the only one.

[@nevskixx]

He refers to it as "discourse." Quite obvious that the concept of Jihad does not exist in Christianity. In the same way one can partake in antisemitic discourse without being neccessarily antisemitic. The result can be the same.

[@madjackmcjock]

Wrong. Aquinas' Just War, the word Crusade have a similar external interpretation

[@gnlout7403]

​@@madjackmcjockhuh?

[@nevskixx]

You love to lay blame. If I say that people in Africa are dying of aids, your response is likely be that this is because the US or Israel did this or that and not consider the point and how to improve. And this applies to every comment I make.

[@davidya72]

@bths87 There many lies in Papes writings for example Pape says that 1/3 of casualties in intifada were women that absolutely not true according to official stastics Pappe not historian He is politican using his history backround

[@deficrypto1234]

What is the 'official statistics'?

[@tarekj5951]

The liar is you 😂

[@jakesgrobler1634]

Seems that most comments favour Pappe, me too

[@axaeyexus]

Bigot agrees with other bigots. Big surprise there.

[@jakesgrobler1634]

@@axaeyexus 😂😂😂

[@nevskixx]

"backward and oppressive"-- I would agree that in isolation this appears to be disparaging, but if one considers that say striving for a society with 100% literacy as opposed to a society of between 60-80% illiteracy, in anyone's view one would see one as more advanced and the other as less so. Oppressive usually depends on protected rights. There is certainly a lack of rights for citizens with most Arabs led by despots.

[@simsonyee]

How many African died in these imaginary pogroms?

[@imammasri_1858]

What’s funny is that everyone keeps discrediting Ilan pappe’s book even though all his sources are credible, and it’s even more ironic how Benny Morris discredits the book even though he used some of Morris’ work as a source...

[@user-yi4oo4iv3b]

"credible" If lying and distorting sources convince you, then you probably don't really care about the truth anyway

[@WhistleFantasy]

How can you say that after the example in this video? He just showed you an example of intentional falsification of a quote (and there are several other examples). Ridiculous

[@johns1139]

Exactly! He seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder because Pappe doesn’t talk about him much. And Pappe’s comments about Morris in his book Ten Myths About Israel are not really inflammatory. He admits they differ but Pappe doesn’t call him a liar or use such absolutist language.

[@birgittavanblitterswijk6998]

it is not that his sources are not credible, it is about how one as an historian should perform a research, interpretate the facts and how one can draw a conclusion. A historian is supposed to use certain scientifuc methods which can be checked by others. When you yourself study and use the same sources and add others (which Pappe neglected), you will discover that Pappe's conclusion are not correct.

[@Dua1512]

​@@WhistleFantasyground reality is biggest proof of Pappe's work. It requires a lot of courage to overcome one's upbringing training to do what Pappe did, people like him are one of a. Kind. This guy (Benny) is simply trying to mask to keep his original beliefs

[@nevskixx]

Your arguments are getting confused. Take a break

[@nevskixx]

No. It would mean the birth of a Palestinian state with fully recognised rights to its citizens to determine its future. Cooperation.Improved education. Employment. Sharing food and water . Scientific research to improve health for all in the region, a cessation of violence. An end to bloodshed. That's what it would mean.

[@simsonyee]

You also fail to mention how Hamas took over Gaza after PA refused to vacate position of PM for Ismail Abu Haniya. They shot and threw few a hundred Fatah supporter of rooftops. Nice peaceful organization that Hamas.

[@deficrypto1234]

Took over Gaza? They won the election. Did Joe Biden take over the US Government? If Trump refuses to leave, is Joe Bidden ' taking over' if he uses his constitutional right to remove Trump by force? No he isn't.

[@daniel99103]

well done benny morris!!

[@delmar1387]

That is about the weakest argument I’ve ever heard trying to discredit an entire work and moreover an entire body of work by implication.

[@kronosDking]

Ilan Pappe is a native Hebrew speaker. To purposefully mistranslate a word is quite suspect and brings into suspicion the rest of his work.

[@PrimoSchnevi]

It's not the only problematic aspect of his work. He's just not a proper historian.

[@Nailbunny2702]

He literally said it was ONE EXAMPLE. No wonder you like Ilan Pappe - you're so desperate to be lied to.

[@delmar1387]

@@Nailbunny2702 kinda feels like maybe you don’t understand how lying works. But no I’m not desperate to be lied to… that’s pretty loaded charge. The critique I’m voicing is pretty simple, the video title (and the words of the speaker) is why you shouldn’t believe one word in this book, that’s a pretty huge claim to bootstrap to only one example. And saying, this is just one example, implies that there are many more. If making such a major claim, why not site them? Perhaps to mislead by implication? 🤔

[@rado5601]

​@@kronosDkingthe point of the quote was to show that Israel was engaged in developing chemical weapons, not the extent of the effect it had on the animals. Whether they were blinded for 24 hours or permanently has absolutely no impact on anything in the book. This is just a pathetic smear on a technicality for something utterly irrelevant.

[@Dua1512]

ground reality is biggest proof of Pappe's work. It requires a lot of courage to overcome one's upbringing training to do what Pappe did, people like him are one of a. Kind. This guy (Benny) is simply trying to mask to keep his original beliefs

[@DanielB7290]

A courage to do what exactly? lie and deliberately misquote historical documents to produce a popular narrative so he could become accepted and famous? Is this your definition of courage? "Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers". Ilan Pappe speaks about himself (Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles], Nov. 29, 1999). Here are other examples of Pappe's "courage": kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZWqhamlh9p9lcU&ab_channel=ISRAELCHANNEL

[@simsonyee]

Regarding the attacks on Arab here is one example: Google: Six teenagers arrested over J'lem beating of Arab, J Post You could have found it on your own if your bothered to know the truth

[@hdibenshushan6025]

Ilan Pappe's history was influenced by his ideology. this is Mr Pappe quote! Benny Morris write objective history.

[@hectorhernandez7299]

😂

[@birgittavanblitterswijk6998]

exactly.

[@nevskixx]

Hi Dream. It's no surprise that after the war some of the worst Nazi war criminals found refuge in Arabia. It is independently well documented and how many Arabs expressed intense antisemitic tendencies, not least the grand Mufti. Yes it is disturbing , but not from the reason you give

[@deficrypto1234]

Arabs are Semites. How can they be antisemitic? Maybe u mean Antizionist tendencies.

[@hectorhernandez7299]

Actually they found refuge in usa , southamerica and a lot just stay in Germany and europe.

[@gnlout7403]

Yes. Maybe read the 88 charter of Hamas. It's horrendous. Unless we don't call 1400 year old religious edicts to exterminate the Jews 'anti semitic'

[@michaelhussey440]

''.. Arab historians , or so -called historians ..'' Lol. ( 1.56 )

[@iillii5]

Ilan seems to enforce his point of view in interviews so I am not tempted to read his books

[@simsonyee]

Ismail Haniya, Hamas despot: "We will never recognize the usurper Zionist government and will continue our jihad-like movement until the liberation of Jerusalem." "We came to say, the Quran is our constitution, we are committed to God and his holy book. God willing, should they try to carry out their crime against the Quran, God will tear their state apart and they will become God's lesson to anyone who tries to desecrate the holy book."

[@antonio703]

Hamas was born in 1987 result of thousands of savages committed by Israel, and not the other way around. Before the Zionists said that the problem was Arafat and the OLP because they did not recognize Isrel, but there came a day when Arafat and the OLP recognized Israel and what happened? NOTHING. Israel has never wanted peace and has no intention of peace.

[@fouadjaardavid4568]

Shame on you.

[@FoolishOrc]

As if Benny Morris is objective, with a wink maybe.

[@abdelaleem4026]

Morris relied exclusively on Israeli archives, which were also quite clear on the ethnic cleansing issue, and totally ignored Arab sources. That's not the approach of a competent historian.

[@YonieZukowsky51]

Just what the world needs-a lying historian.Which university had the good fortunne of picking up Ilan Pappe?

[@glbale]

Pappe's model of ethnic cleansing just makes sense to me. How could some 750,000 Palestinians magically leave their homes in Palestine within a few months WITHOUT ethnic cleansing being involved? And then the Israelis flattened some 400 villages so the Palestinians couldn't return - if the intention was lacking before the fact (which again strains credulity) it was sure there afterward.

[@legendarygodzilla3577]

Pappes models

[@shainazion4073]

The Institute for Palestine Studies, an Arab organization based in Beirut stated, *68% of Arabs left their villages without ever seeing a Jewish man with a gun or a soldier* Search, *_How we really became refugees, Palestinians tell their personal stories_* Mamoud Abbas and 12 others from all over Israel, tell the truth about why and how they left the villages and houses and it wasn't because of the Jews.

[@glbale]

@@shainazion4073 Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

[@shainazion4073]

@@glbale Pull this!

[@shainazion4073]

@@glbale Did you even look up the study or watch the item suggested?

[@boazpalesto]

this is absolutely pathetic. Pappe is eminently more credible than Benny, at least as far as this stupid selection is concerned.

[@dragonfly4004]

Pappe is a Liar.

[@AndrewMalone_]

Pappe speaks FACTS!

[@grahamgriffiths6099]

So many of you apologists for Israel focus on the obviously distasteful elements of Muslim extremists, but I fail to see what this has to do with the present thread, which is about Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Hamas are maniacs, but the fact that they were voted in democratically to govern Gaza surely indicates how desperate the people are after 65 years of oppression.

[@estherlev2472]

How can there be ethnic cleansing when Arabs are constantly 20% of Israel's population since 1948. Maybe ask why the number of Christian Arabs in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority is down from 20% in 1948 (to 2005) to only 1%!!

[@red-sv2qf]

@@estherlev2472 Constantly being 20% since 1948? Whenever it increases you kill them that's why it's been constant.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Desperate? Or accomplices, supporters of Islamic supremacism?

[@darkfielddiggermicrosafari]

It indicates how INDOCTRINATED they are. They are victims, being used as cannon fodder by bigger forces. If they had not believed the promises and lies and ideology of the Arab league they might even today have been happy citizens of Israel like about 2 million other Arabs are.

[@AndrewMann552]

Your history is a bit off, there hasn't been a Palestinian suicide bombing in Israel for over a decade now and since the 2nd Intifada the PA has become a simple colonial agent, no different than Vichy France. And who has been prosecuted for the race riots against Africans? In fact, another Christian church was attacked a few hours ago, and the Netanyahu regime does nothing.

[@JensPeterLiljegren]

“Med Israel for fred” = “With Israel for peace”. Orwellian new speak for flattening Gaza and weaponizing deranged settlers on the West Bank.

[@AndrewMann552]

Gaza is run by Hamas because there were free elections in 2006, Israel refused to recognize the results and imposed the blockade and tried to carry out a pro-PA coup in 2007 which resulted in Hamas keeping sole control. Israel pulled out the settlers but kept full control of Gaza's airspace, borders and even shores, that's not exactly "leaving." You fail to mention that Israel trains the PA's security forces which are notorious for crushing dissent, not exactly a threat to Israel now is it?

[@luisyouchicago2238]

Benny Morris is a joke. Lol. Reminds me of the Saturday Night Live comedy characters. Reminds me also of the Benny Hell show GTFO

[@jmorel333]

Pathetic Morris- smear, generalise, evade - I opt for majority of new historians. 1948 archives still embargoed by PMO. Until 2039! Why do you think..You've had 12 years to recant on 'no smoking gun' too - most Israelis since veterans' testimonies know re plan Dalet, that irgun & haganah knew exactly what to do. And did it. Get over yourself. And achieve a social conscience about the Nakba, instead of yr purist, 'objective' stance