Bi-Generation: Did It Work? (It's Complicated)

[@elliotcarter2751]

It’s refreshing to hear someone criticise the specials without using the term “too woke” and to actually talk about the stories without being a dick about it

[@richardthebastard6745]

What does being a dick have to do with any of this?

[@TheDude1764]

Agreed. They were terribly written in ADDITION to being a woke mess that pandered to the mentally ill among us.

[@TheNuclearGeek]

"Criticize"? When did that happen?

[@mrdr0161]

​@@TheDude1764 Hire a therapist

[@Lezm]

Yeah, they were fantastic, don’t get me wrong it had some bad moments, like Donna saying no male doctor could understand letting go the regeneration energy despite 11 giving river regeneration energy for a minor injury that one time, not that she’d know that but it did feel like a unnecessary insult, same with him getting slapped by the mother (Not that this was the only time that happened but still) besides those, it was great, I especially loved the second special on the ship, that was seriously cool, and really reminded me of the weeping angels and things I love in doctor who, they were all great, and the 14th Doctor’s ending was fantastic

[@TheConman761]

I know this is a small point but Rose’s reaction to ten regenerating is in character for her. She’s human and is in love with the doctor, a human realistically couldn’t be unattached to one face and love every incarnation. I think it was in the moment, they’d been separated for years and obviously she’d been through this all before and it was hard the first time

[@TheJadedJames]

It’s weird because she knows what regeneration is, she had experienced it before and would know new Doctor is ultimately the same person. Even her reaction to Tennant initially was kind of overplayed. While he wasn’t as clear as he could be, the 9th Doctor warn her what was happening. It wasn’t some new being taking over the Doctor’s body, is was the Doctor transforming to recover from a mortal injury

[@TheConman761]

@@TheJadedJames yeah but she’s a human with emotions and attachments. Not to mention they’re in a middle of a dalek invasion??? Like yeah, she knows the doctor can regenerate, does she want him to though??! No!

[@tgiacin435]

@@TheConman761and that’s why I’m glad she was filed away into an alternate earth. She willingly abandoned her boyfriend and didn’t even apologize to him about how he was the prime suspect in her disappearance. And she thinks the Doctor should reciprocated her love? Why? He’s not a human, he had many companions before Rose. Rose is basically a stray the Doctor takes on adventures until they decide to leave. Also why would the Doctor fall in love with her since human relationships are alien to him since the galifrayans reproduce with genetic looms since the sisterhood of Kahrn cursed the species with sterility

[@RickReasonnz]

River Song though? Rose was more infatuated than in love

[@tommyrandall3489]

​@@tgiacin435 My brother in christ, Tennant was drooling for Rose, do not paint it in any other way. The show goes through great lengths to show they fancy the pants off eachother. There's no way you can convince anyone otherwise, regardless of the expanded lore you have stuffed up ur pants.

[@theweirdofengland]

Not only did the Doctor settle down with River Song on Darillium for 24 years, but afterwards he spent 70 years at the university Bill Potts attended, working as a professor, living with Nardole and Missy.

[@EditedAF987]

That 70 years was occupied with him having to keep close guard over the vault (as well as foiling the odd invasion like in Dr Mysterio). And then that tenure at St Luke’s ended in a tragedy that almost drove the Doctor into giving up and letting death take him for good.

[@theweirdofengland]

@@EditedAF987 Yes. And no doubt the Fourteenth Doctor will be foiling the odd invasion during his retirement with Donna. And someday surely Donna Noble and her family will die, and the Fourteenth Doctor will have to move on. That’s the curse of being an immortal Time Lord. My point is, this isn’t the first time we’ve seen the Doctor retire somewhere for a while.

[@EditedAF987]

@@theweirdofengland oh sorry, I thought you were suggesting that 14 didn’t need to retire, as he’d already done so as 12.

[@Josh-the-man]

​@@EditedAF987 there was no need for 14 to retire. RTD wanted him to, that's why, ther eis no other reason.

[@imperfectly_megan]

24 years is just a blink of an eye to the doctor though not a break. 70 years is better but I think it has to be at least 100 years for the doctor because if his long lifespan.

[@theweirdofengland]

I felt RTD was pastiching himself in The Giggle. The camp villain dance number, the Doctor offering to battle the Toymaker across the stars, the Toymaker hypnotising the human race with a repeating pattern, and of course a mysterious hand picking up the gold tooth - these were all lifted directly from the ‘Master trilogy’ (Utopia/Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords) in 2007. And as you observed, Donna’s happy ending was just a platonic version of the happy ending given to Rose.

[@archief1783]

This is such an underrated comment

[@jakewhiston6461]

He does this a lot even in wild blue yonder he uses the line "my arms are too long" repeatedly to enforce that it's not the doctor or Donna, he did the same thing with the lines "are you my mummy", "who turned out the lights", "Donna Noble has left the library, Donna Noble has been saved". He also wanted to do it for the waters of mars but decided not to. To me it's kinda tacky and lazy

[@venmis137]

@@jakewhiston6461 ?? Those lines were from Moffat's episodes

[@brobro9169]

@@jakewhiston6461those “who turned out the lights” and “are you my mummy” were Moffat episodes

[@manuelmialdea5127]

This really worries me. I hope this particular trend stays on the specials.

[@Aria_Dragonneel]

Honestly River Song is the best person for the Doctor's wife. She loves all of him, at all stages of his life. She understands him, despite his appearance.

[@Sam-zu5mr]

Haven't you get the message yet....the Doctor is part of the 🏳️‍🌈 inclusivity crowd. River Song isnt "THIER" type. Get used to it, the Doctor is into men going forward. Thanks to RTD.

[@TheNuclearGeek]

A man and a woman!? In a relationship!? In 2023!? Are you NUTS?

[@SaulGoodman3D2049]

@@TheNuclearGeek Oh piss off and keep your persecution fetish to yourself. Representation isn't a zero sum game, you numpties.

[@thepillowhead2453]

@@TheNuclearGeek I get the feeling this is about to go overly smug...

[@TheNuclearGeek]

@@thepillowhead2453Ah, sorry, full sarcasm. Though it's sad that it isn't completely obvious, ya know?

[@erubin100]

I think Mel being there was meant to illustrate a point that not ALL of the doctor's companions end up dead or displaced. Her life actually got better (or at least more interesting) because of the doctor, in contrast to the Toymaker's mocking puppet show.

[@tgiacin435]

That should’ve been a given since most of the classic who companions left voluntarily. The only companions that died were Catarina, Sarah Kingdom and Adric. It was new who and RTD that started the trend of all the companions becoming super special awesome ultra important because apparently you can’t just have a normal person go on adventures in time and space because it would be fun. Oh no, they have to be special

[@Mark-nh2hs]

​​@@tgiacin435that's the same issue I have with NuWho and apparently some reports have said the new companion Ruby is going to be another "Special" companion of key importance - rolls eyes

[@TheJadedJames]

I don’t think Mel has a purpose beyond “Why not cast a former companion as one of the new Unit agents?” I didn’t mind. Speaking of this, did something happen to Osgood while I wasn’t watching? Please tell me Osgood is okay!

[@tgiacin435]

@@Mark-nh2hs and I’m sure it’s gonna be universally important. If Rose was the only companion to do it, then it wouldn’t be a problem. But then she had to send the bad wolf message through time because new who has to be like a regular series. And then they did it with Martha, Donna and Clara. I’ll give Chibnall credit, at least 13’s companions were just regular people going on an adventure because it would be fun. I was willing to give RTD a chance if he tried to be more like the classic series but also being experimental and give us more episodes like midnight, but I feel like it’s gonna be more like aliens of London, voyage of the damned or the end of time

[@myxomatoad2]

Agreed, I think Mel’s presence was an in-episode counterpoint to the Toymaker’s allegations against the Doctor. Also, I hated Moffat’s refusal to give anyone a tragic end, but I really like Davies insisting through the Toymaker that regardless of whatever “but they’re actually okay” ending the companions got, the Doctor essentially upended their lives and brought them to their fates.

[@purpledevilr7463]

David Tenant has quite a thing about odd regenerations. The regrown hand. Siphoning off the energy to the hand. The hand allowing multiple people to use some energy. The hand regenerating to a new person. The face coming back and now this bi-generation.

all because he has a great "what" reaction

[@-haclong2366]

I genuinely hope that R.T.D. will leave it open like this and NEVER bring him back, let this be the "Big Finish Doctor" and let the show move on.

[@SamLoser2]

Vanity issues.

[@help4343]

Its because he doesn't want to go.

[@mnmnm3643]

I do see what RTD wanted to do for Ncuti. I think he expected Moffat or Chibs to reconcile Doc's past, give them some sort of healing in their tenure. RTD wants Ncuti to be a Classic Doctor, a hapless traveller who's not running from his past but instead just there to help and not have that trauma bubbling underneath BUT the whole arc of the specials should've been that. We could've gotten 14 having a Heaven Sent type ep where he sees the horror he committed and be forgiven for his sins, maybe even by Susan or someone from his past. That'd allow him to regenerate into Ncuti and starting fresh, not having all that healing happen off-screen. He also shouldn't have said every Doc bigenerated it just doesn't make sense.

[@indedgames4359]

Well we see. He might have a plan ther.....

[@daemonartursson5952]

I thought RTD's comment about Every Doctor being Bi was just a Joke 😮😊😅😂

[@brobro9169]

Yh but it doesn’t make sense because 12’s incarnation already learnt apt of these lessons, I feel RTD is I love with himself and just ignores a lot of important things from other eras…especially moffats

[@mnmnm3643]

​@@brobro9169 He never healed from losing Gallifrey tho. When Missy lied to 12 that Gallifrey survived, he was furious. Then Heaven Sent and Hell Bent he basically went crazy for Clara THEN Chibs brought Gallifrey back and turned them into Cybermen. They should've made those changes after the 50th when they brought Gallifrey back but they didn't.

[@allgreatfictions]

Honestly, I'm just sad we didn't keep Capaldi's sonic sunglasses. That was cool as fuck.

[@SoundsOfTheWildYT]

Something about bigeneration didn’t sit right with me but I couldn’t single it out. I think you nailed it on the head with the reinventing the wheel thing. Sometimes a little gimmick can be great if it suits the story well, like the doctor Donna, but with the timeless child wing so recent, on top of this being the first “revisited face”, it’s just too much and doesn’t let the fundamental Who-ness shine.

[@tgiacin435]

I wouldn’t mind it if 14 completed the regeneration after they beat the Celestial Toymaker. But after that just stinks of RTD being too I love with his character to let them leave with dignity. I mean 10 could’ve regenerated into 11 during stolen earth, and skip the David Tennant’s farewell parade of death and more importantly, the end of time

[@brobro9169]

I love how a lot of ppl complained abt moffat trying to shake things up too much in Hell Bent by having the doctor kill but RTD literally has David give out harsh punishment to those aliens in the family of blood and when Moffat gave the doctor new regenerations ppl had problems with it despite the fact it was necessary…but when RTD shakes something up he gets praise by blind fanboys/girls like he can do no wrong even if he did ruin things…

[@tgiacin435]

@@brobro9169 the irony is the Doctor has killed especially with a gun at times. The Doctor may try to avoid bloodshed, but will kill if necessary. And trust, I’m no RTD fan boy. I give credit to where they’re due. I love the RTD dalek design, and the midnight entity, but RTD had a lot of stinkers, and yes, Moffat’s writing suffered as the series went on. Series 8 was probably the next strongest series after series 5. But Clara was starting to annoy me more than Rose Tyler. And Rose is probably one of my least favorite companions because of how she treated Mickey. I mean the guy was almost blamed for Rose’s disappearance

[@anthonyfisher-7090]

My personal headcanon is because the 14th Doctor was within the first week or 72 hours or whatever it was of this regeneration that's why the Bi-regenoration happened. A bit like how the tenth doctor lost his hand and grew a new one. The regeneration energy still fizzing away inside casing him to Br-regenorate

[@olived9560]

oo yeah that works!

[@ollyreece4208]

I thought it was more along the lines of the Doctor can't carry on as they are with so much baggage and guilt etc so the body in a coping mechanism manifests the next body healed or that body from a future point in time where they are healed, but the consequence is that the current body has to stay and do the healing in order for the next body to exist as they always have done, and 2 Doctors being around usually destabilises timelines etc so there's more motivation for current Doctor to get on with healing. And then presumably 14 upon his body feeling it's healed or healed enough will absorb into 15 or get teleported back to the helipad and the timeline corrects itself in that way to make it a conventional regeneration. I love the idea of Timelords being able to as a coping mechanism bring their next body into existence healed while the current one hangs around to fix itself... It really shows off their mastery over time and how they can manipulate it to their will... The Lords of time showing why they are indeed Lords of time.

[@natbarmore]

@@ollyreece4208I like that. And it has echoes of K’anpo having his next regeneration, Cho-je, already hanging around long before he regenerates, and the Watcher being in existence somehow before Four regenerates into Five. Both could easily be examples of literally externalizing trauma, into another body, as part of the regeneration process.

[@mayotango1317]

That only last 15 hours.

[@sammulhall]

@@ollyreece4208I don’t care if this ends up being right or wrong, I love this idea and I’m choosing to believe it

[@snylon9354]

i drank a litre of motor oil yesterday

[@FullFatVideos]

I’m sorry, I’m so sorry

[@NukedKnight]

@@FullFatVideos can we get this pinned? the comment is just so majestic

[@ms.antithesis]

@@FullFatVideos why is this a bad thing

[@hurricane2176]

It is important to remember that anything rtd says in a commentary has yet to be canonised. It may well be that the plans to bi-generate every doctor doesn't happen in the end, so don't feel like its part of the canon if it it never shows up in an episode.

[@Erisponsibility]

In the commentary he very much phrased it like his own headcanon, along with the toymaker having messed with the doctor's timeline allowing for any interpretations and I don't think RTD will move to canonise a single specific one, so I think it's all fine. I also like Tennant just getting to retire rather than just taking a break as it can renew the doctor's energy without being burdened down by past traumas and I think he just deserves a happy ending for once

[@Sam-zu5mr]

You do know this regeneration was inclusive...the hint was BI regeneration🏳️‍🌈 that scene was literally the Doctor "coming out" both metaphorically and physically on screen. RTD said in an interview as a child fan he hated the Doctor being a straight white cis-gendered man, as the character didn't reflect his own sexuality and gender confusions at the time. The first time around RTD couldn't make an inclusive Doctor as it was 2005 and everything 🏳️‍🌈 was still about taboo. So this time around he has full control of the direction he may want to take the Doctor in. Therefore hes literally given the role to an ethnic 🏳️‍🌈 person. He wants the show to appeal less to old fans and more to new younger more diverse fans, that may feel as he did growing up. Just get used to the fact, the Doctor is INCLUSIVE from now on, even his pronoun has been changed to "thier" to fit the narrative. Old Doctor gone, new Doctor here to stay as camp as Christmas.

[@onvasean2485]

​@@Sam-zu5mr cite your source please

[@Erisponsibility]

@@onvasean2485 it's the episode commentary on BBC iPlayer

[@BlackAxon]

​@@Sam-zu5mr I feel like this has to be bait right xd. Bi means 2 chief. bigeneration = 2 regeneration as in a regeneration into 2 people. How would bigeneration meaning bisexual regeneration make any sense?

[@SimpleGeekReviews]

But like, people who go through trauma often do feel like they die. Their lives are changed. They are different from what they used to be. Be it losing an arm, SA, losing a very close loved one, near death. It changes who you are. You may have the same face, but you might have a new personality. So like the Doctor does it well. It is a death - this face, this body, will be different. The personality will be different. You are the Doctor, but you also another version of the Doctor. I love Matt's last words. That really puts a nice pin on how we, as humans, go through life. Everything changes. We grow older, we experience life. We change. You can keep on going through life, so long as you do try to remember who you used to be.

[@BionicTem]

There is always every doctor running about in time, doesn't matter what order they regenerate - the third doctor could show up and save the world in 2023 while 14 is chilling having sandwiches

[@joshharrison619]

well 14 would remember it then wouldnt he, explaining why he didnt get involved

[@Spooky_Magooky]

@@joshharrison619 The real question is though with how in this universe time is not a linear line but all happening dynamically at once when would he get those memories? The way I'd interpret it would be that those memories would only be known by future regenerations was as/after a previous one has experienced it.

[@TheCandyGamingChannel]

@@Spooky_Magookyyeah kind of, it’s usually when they meet each other or make contact with each other. Their memories or actions travel in time to the future doctor at that moment, and then when they depart they forget it happened which is the timeline correcting itself

[@HOTD108_]

Well yeah, it is a time travel show, but prior to now each incarnation still had an ending in their personal timeline. Each incarnation could show up at any point in history from the point of view of the universe's timeline, but within the Doctor's personal timeline each body had an eventual "death" that they'd inevitably face, be it falling off a tower, getting irradiated, or being shot in a alleyway. What RTD suggested in the commentary will undo that, effectively making every single incarnation immortal, which not only undermines the personal character drama of each regeneration story from the past six decades, but it also trivialises the stakes of every dangerous encounter we've ever seen the Doctor face. The Fifth Doctor no longer made a heroic sacrifice to save Peri, the Eighth Doctor no longer had to forsake his name for to save time itself, the Tenth Doctor never had to go, and so on. Let's all just hope what RTD said in that commentary STAYS in that commentary, and never finds it's way into actual canon.

[@lexruptor]

I loved 11 so much... I still miss him. And 12 was glorious, those eyebrows, the kidneys, River, all perfect imo. I honestly think Russel and Moffat should coshowrun together, so we get the story depth and complexity coupled with the character depth and evolution, in the same package, dare I say it, "Perfect Who"

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

Wait what? You just listed two things RTD does well and Moffat does terribly as if having moffat on would help with it. Moffat does okay single story plotlines, but the reason his overarching plotlines are "complex" is cuz they're terrible and messy and he sucks at answering questions he sets up

[@lexruptor]

​@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 I disagree, they're messy to you because you dislike their complexity, I happen to love all of it, meanwhile Russel most certainly does not do the latter well, only the former.

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

@@lexruptor I don't dislike their complexity. Big fan of complexity in stories. the problem is that moffat doesn't write them complexly to suit the stories, he writes them in a way where he makes it seem like something interesting is GOING to happen eventually, without actually writing those interesting things. We see this in everything he does, from sherlock, to the recent dracula series, to obviously, doctor who. And as far as your claim that Davies doesn't do character depth or evolution well or that moffat does it at all, please just go rewatch literally any Moffat episode and then compare it to any RTD episode. The only character moffat cares about is the doctor, but not in the same way as any other writer has ever cared about him or any titular character of a show. He's not a piece of the puzzle, he is the only person that matters in the entire universe, and not only this, but that in the writing style of moffat, nobody else really does. Oh, sure, the doctor likes to say things like "I've never met a single person who wasn't important," but the writing does nothing to show that. It constantly has characters who die without even a name being given to them onscreen, and the doctor isn't fazed. Could you imagine 10 in ANY of the situations 11 was in? Could you imagine 9? The rage he'd feel at the sheer waste of human life, at his future self for not even caring, at whoever he was facing. Sorry for a long comment, I do genuinely enjoy moffat's seasons, and I'm not gonna attack you or claim that you're wrong for your opinions, or try to strawman you. But to claim that moffat's characterization was better than davies' just sits wrong with me when moffat did such a terrible job at staying true to this character, and especially looking at his characterization and treatment of woman characters on his show. I also think that the way he handled his plotlines was pretty bad, but since your reply specified that you were saying davies does those better than moffat, I'm not gonna bother talking about it too much

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

Moffat needs to stay away from UK television for the rest of his life. The damage he has done is just shameful

[@lexruptor]

​@@satyasyasatyasya5746Nope, cope harder

[@nettieb7604]

The thing about the bi regeneration stuff and the specials in general (as much as I I had fun) is that … well, why can’t sad endings just be sad? Why do we all need a pat on the head to say that they lived happily ever after - and what’s wrong with a bitter sweet goodbye?

[@Mark-nh2hs]

That's the NuWho MO sadly

[@noakai]

I mean in the same vein, why do endings have to be sad or goodbyes have to be bittersweet? It doesn't automatically make them more meaningful or somehow deeper, just like happy endings aren't automatically either. Plenty of goodbyes and endings in DW have been sad, bittersweet, heartbreaking. Not all of them have to be.

[@SaulGoodman3D2049]

I don't see your point. You say this as if this show has a chronic "forced happy ending" problem but since 2005, we've probably had more sad and bittersweet goodbyes than otherwise.

[@Smellbringer]

But that's what Moffat was doing and Davies called out with the puppet scene. "No, they didn't die, they lived out long and happy lives. They were just tragically ripped away from everything they cared about, but they didn't die." As the Toymaker himself shouts in disgust by the end, "Well that's all right then!"

[@fedweezy4976]

​@@Mark-nh2hs I feel like the NuWho motto is actually not letting anyone get a happy ending. In that same special the toymaker references the fact that like, 2 people have left the TARDIS voluntarily, while everyone else has suffered some horrible fate

[@jackdriffill2394]

The big finish audio said it best, every regeneration shares the same core traits, personalities and moral values, just in different levels and presenting in different ways

[@unidragons7494]

personally don't like the idea of bi-generation would've rather the doctor just regenerated normally

[@jeckjeck3119]

But the Doctor needed it, a time off that is not last years with your dying wife (River).

[@MrSolidBlakeGaming]

@@jeckjeck3119so that justifies it? No. He could do different stuff or simply ignore her. That's another point tho, what about river now? They're going to ignore the whole thing...

[@jeckjeck3119]

@@MrSolidBlakeGaming More unhealthy coping mechanisms:/ There is no ignoring her, River is one of many emotionally unresolved traumas for Doctor's character. That's one thing RTD tied up pretty well, the doctor is always on the run from it all. Taking an actually healthy healing time away from it all is a sign of maturity.

[@lorlok623]

​@@jeckjeck3119let's face it, RTD just wanted to have a surprise regeneration scene, AND a Happily-Ever-After (until eventually 15th that is), ain't like it'd be the first time RTD made a carbon copy of David Tennant's Doctor. Also let's be honest, the Doctor won't get any actual rest as long as he's on Earth and/or with humans, he'll always spring into action as soon as something happens, he'll never be the bystander type

[@lorlok623]

​@@jeckjeck3119in fact, staying on Earth with Donna's family is probably just gonna add extra burden to the Doctor, since now he has to choose between the responsibility of being part of the family and the responsibility of being the Doctor

[@paniniboy]

I think the idea of 14 getting his: "reward" was fantastic and really gave an epilogue to the amazing arc in 2010. However 2 the idea that there are now 2 doctors running about undermines the next eras because we know that if ratings dip again they can just bring David tenant back for cheap clicks. I love the idea of Wilf being able to spend the rest of his life with 14. I think if they made the 3 specials connected then it would have felt grander and his return would have felt like an event. But I'll elaborate more in my KZbin video.

[@TheGeorgeD13]

Tennant has been pretty adamant in the behind the scenes tik toks stuff for the 60th that his wife has been sharing in the leadup to the specials that he's done though and even said that he won't let himself be used in the way you described "for cheap clicks" and that returning too many times has diminishing returns. So I'm pretty confident that Tennant will, even if he returns for the 70th Anniversary or something, he won't let himself be used for tv clickbait shit. He's aware of that dynamic potentially existing and wants no part of it.

[@sjn7688]

I remember reading an interview with Moffat years ago and he actually said, that he and RTD differ on what regeneration means, and what it means to the doctor. But I love it that they still worked together and there weren't any arguments between the two over it. They just have different opinions and that's okay, so I hope Who fans can be like that. There doesn't need to be any meanness between the two camps. I don't love the bi-generation, but I certainly don't hate it, because it's actually what makes me love Dr Who. The truth that there aren't any rules in it. Pretty much anything can happen. Yes it's messy, it's insane, and there are a million plot holes. But I love that it's long, and complicated and twisty. It means viewers can always be left shocked, and it means there's always an opportunity for an imaginative, clever writer to jump in and have a go. Wibbley-Wobbley-Timey-Wimey all the way!

[@alecbormia4523]

you can literally tell this is true just by the way they both wrote their regenerations. RTD is in more of the "regeneration is death" camp while Moffat is more in the "regeneration is just one of the many changes the doctor experiences throughout their long life" camp. Personally I prefer moffat's by a mile but to each their own.

[@asajc6210]

@@alecbormia4523but 14 literally says “it’s not dying” while regenerating in The Giggle. I don’t think RTD actually views retention as death. The 10th doctor just treated it like that because he was selfish. the scene of 9 regenerating into 10 kind of proves RTD doesn’t really see regeneration as death. Same with 14 into 15.

[@LodgercatChannel]

I would have loved the final game to have been poker so we could have had an hour-long episode of the two doctors and the toymaker in a dimly lit backroom smoking cigars and gambling chips in almost silence

[@FullFatVideos]

You’re hired

[@Fullibrohallows]

It’s odd but I don’t mind the idea since the doctor can run into past iterations anyway, but this gives 10/14 a happy and open ending

[@gamikhan9087]

It feels weird to give someone a happy ending after years of their character arc ending.

[@TheWolfXCIX]

But that's EXACTLY why it's shit, Tennant sacrificed so much saving the universe and his loved ones, that sacrifice was meaningful and his death was poignant. This was crappy fan fiction that has retroactively ruined his and Donna's great ending.

[@Photons_Dont_Matter_Much]

why does he need 2 happy endings????????????????

[@tonaerio]

Personally I don’t mind the idea of having two doctors, but the way they went about it kind of confuses me. Like therapy in reverses implies Ncuti is a future version of 14 and has his memories. That would make sense in a normal multi Doctor story, but in this instance 14 and Ncuti should be at the exact same point in their timeline. They’ve basically been split in two, how does Tennants 14s actions after the bi generation then effect Ncutis? I guess wibbly wobbly timey whimey stuff. But I personally think it makes more sense thematically, and logically for them two just be two independent versions of the Doctor at the same point. It doesn’t change the story, it makes more sense, and also continues the theming of a fresh start and passing of the baton to this new series

[@captainjames4649]

shut up@@TheWolfXCIX

[@natbarmore]

BTW, mostly just an aside, but I think the games/challenges in _The Giggle_ were just fine, and very much in character with _The Celestial Toymaker._ In that story, the central challenge was a rate-limited Tower of Hanoi game, while the companions have to play blind man’s bluff and hopscotch, find a hidden object, dance, and play a game that is sort of musical chairs but with dangerous chairs. Only that last one is really any sort of logic puzzle. And Towers of Hanoi has a simple, repeatable formula for any number of pieces, the only challenge is keeping track of it for a long game. So while the premise of the toy maker is that his games are exceptionally difficult and cerebral, what we’ve actually seen depicted on screen in the past had the difficulty scaled down for a young or very-young audience.

[@EditedAF987]

It’s also advantageous for the Doctor. The Toymaker is a cosmically powerful being, so playing more complex games risks him being able to use his powers and intelligence more freely, giving the Toymaker an advantage. Limiting the Toymaker to a simple game of chance, or a game where he can only use his physical form, keeps things on an even playing field.

[@Better_callMe]

I think I remember RTD saying that eventually 14 will regenerate into 15. I'm taking as the toy maker's presence messed with 15th placement in time and forced him to come out sooner than he was expected to.

[@petermann673]

4:50 That was my interpretation of it. 14 is going to have a half century or so vacation. And then once Donna passes peacefully, "Ok, I'm ready to go." And he regens as normal and floops back to the moment of bigeneration.

[@SSJPENGUIN]

I will forgive everything if we do get an 8th doctor special/mini-series

[@EVER_PRINCE]

I like the concept of bi-generation as a idea. A idea. It adds so much more wonder and mystery to Time Lords. I would’ve liked if they didn’t say it was a legend or myth or anything akin to that, and simply have 14 and 15 work out the math simultaneously, but after the fact. Let us deal with the toy maker, win, and give us answers afterwards. Tell us that they think it could be because of all the package, and mental weight that the doctor is carrying, combined with all of the extra lives and energy he was given from Gallafray, Bi-Generation was a sort of self defence mechanism. His body could not handle it anymore, including the death, and all of it held on for so long it needed to split to survive. Say that 14 basically took all the pain into himself and that’s why he has that old face again. His time lord body literally cannot contain the regeneration energy, and emotional distress he needed to split. Kinda like a paradox figuring itself out. Further adding that he’s burning up like a candle and say that since his death, 14 has been stuck in regenerating limbo and will eventually die.

[@captainchaos5705]

I like bigeneration in the context of the story, but i agree that it all depends on how they handle it going forward. If they tease Tenant a lot then itll undercut Ncuti so much but otherwise i think it stands right now as a fun way to have two doctors in one story

[@darthmummy7889]

Stfu it’s total garbage

[@robboyte1101]

THANK YOU!!! I also wanted to see these three specials as an interconnected Toymaker storyline with plenty of Who callbacks and anniversary elements. Glad to see someone agrees with me.

[@LuciusFoxCar]

I totally agree that the Doctor is in essence the same personality! Yes, they have particular quirks and flavors but they are all the same person. That is a testament to the actors. I’ve only been able to stay awake through about three or four episodes of the Chibnall era but the fact that I recognized the Doctor in those episodes was a reminder that Whitaker and all the actors are aware of the point you made. They’re all the same Doctor.

[@owenjolley351]

*This is going to be a bit of a long one so bear with me here. The thing I enjoyed most about this episode was Neil Patrick Harris’ performance as the Toymaker and how flawlessly he was able to switch between different accents including German, British, American (When he said “Well that’s alright then”) and French when he was dressed as the dancing mime. Also I was close to tears when 15 brought up Sarah Jane as I grew up watching the Sarah Jane Adventures so it really hit me hard. However the thing I found the hardest to believe was how no one was telling 15 to put on some trousers (or more realistically Kate not asking one of the UNIT members to send up a pair of trousers for 15 to put on). Other than that I really enjoyed this sort of trilogy of new episodes, it was far better than anything Chibnall put out (Though to be fair I did kind of enjoy the first few episodes of season 11 plus I really enjoyed the master. He was by far the best character and definitely carried Whittaker’s time as the Doctor. I mean I never would have predicted that he would disguise himself as Rasputin before dancing to the Boney M song of his namesake) and I can’t wait to see what Ncuti will be like as the Doctor starting with the Christmas Day special. Also this one is for all the “anti-woke” KZbinrs out there bashing this “trilogy”, you are delusional and I bet you are not really even fans nor have never even seen an episode of Doctor Who in your life.*

[@whiteguy6901]

I always interpreted Tennant's unwillingness to change as it being part of his "grunge phase" and that after that face and after he lives as 11 he becomes more comfortable with his changes, and when he passes from Capaldi to Whittaker he's only giving a speech because he's talking himself into actually regenerating instead of just dying. Great video by the way, loved it

[@ceren6312]

I actually LOVED the idea in the game of ball one of the doctors tragically dying and that game being longer. That would make the episode deeper and now I am sad because it didn’t happen 😢😂

[@Humancatpost]

I was so excited for RTD to come back after the mess that Chibnall made but now I'm... worried? I didn't think that a celebration of 60 years of the show would make me so hesitant for what's to come. It almost seems like Russel spent so much time in his own head between 2009 and now that we're ending up with some strange fan-fiction rather than material that has a good understanding of the character of The Doctor. Moffat didn't write a banger every week, but he knew who the character was on an intimate level, and understood what was important about their story. I just really hope RTD has some non yes-men around him who can talk him down when he starts getting too fanciful.

[@ForTheLoveOfWho]

I prefer Chris' era to Russell's first, as I felt it was more faithful to what came before, especially with its continuation of the founding fathers plotline from the 1980s, which has been dubbed by some fans as the "Cartnell Masterplan," even though it was actually developed by Marc Platt. I had been waiting for this for some time.

[@tenhayz1889]

Damn, a youtuber can have an interesting take and not just cry that doctor who is woke? Agree or not, that's a good video. On one end, I like the doctor getting to rest with Donna and the whole rehab thing, but on the other end, you make very valid points with which I have to agree with. Let's just hope this bigeneration thing is either immediately set aside and forgotten forever or expended upon in clever and meaningful ways, there can be no inbetween.

[@AroAceGamer]

I like bigeneration, but only as long as its a one time thing...

[@MarieDesJardin]

Wow, it's interesting how out of step I am with the hard-core Doctor Who fans. I found the specials delightful! I think they fully succeeded in what they were intended to do: remind people of how much fun Doctor Who can be, smear some modern-day sensibilities into the faces of the bigots, and get rid of the "burden of the timelord" so 15 can start off happy and free. The specials did all that. I think 14 showing how delighted he was with 15 will only help the viewing public more easily accept Ncuti's doctor. I have enjoyed how RTD subverted expectations and told the story that he thought would go over best with the general public. He's a masterful showrunner and I'm privileged to watch him once again build Doctor Who into a dynamo.

[@SteveSmith-wk9dx]

I was fine with having Tennant & Ncuti on screen together; in fact, I really liked it. Having the chance for 14 to hand over to 15 was superb and they played off each other very well. I think that after the handover, it was time for 14 to leave. There are plenty of ways to write it. It's well-established in new-Who that there's a period of instability while the regeneration energy is doing its thing. Have the two Doctors figure out between them that this is unstable and temporary. Perhaps neither can regenerate again if 14 stays around, perhaps something worse ill happen. Then call back to Donna's "letting go" comment in The Star Beast. 14 can say that he's older and wiser now, and he's learned to let go. Let Tennant go out with grace, and pass the torch on to Ncuti.

[@fabio3-4]

I did see one theory that said the 14th doctor now becomes the curator from the 50th special which I kind of like the idea of but still not a fan of bi-generation especially if it effects every doctor retroactively now. That said ncuti is amazing already and I can’t wait to see more of him

[@briannoram5677]

I also feel like the reason why they made Tennant stick around is so that the new doctor wouldn’t face a whole lot of hate afterwards the same way Matt Smith did when he took over for Tennant.

[@misssupercookie2011]

I am already seeing people in the comments of clips of TCORR asking about Fourteen and his whereabouts. And I feel like, as well as the other issues with the biregeneration concept, on a meta level, it happening to the one Doctor we just can't leave in the past, who is constantly brought up whenever one is regenerating, the one that so many people stopped watching after he left. It feels like, in addition to overshadowing Ncuti, its just validating those who think Tennant is The One True Doctor. Why does he get to stick around, whats so special about him? Moffat got flack for thinking his Doctors were the best, but damn, RTD is taking it to new heights here.

[@theinvisiblegentleman1142]

As much as I love David Tennant, I don't like the showrunners stockpiling extra Tennants in a "In case of low ratings, break glass." Now there are two Tennants running around that aren't the main doctor. At this rate there will be 4 for the 70th, 8 for the 80th, and 16 for the 90th.

[@marionbaggins]

He played a different version for Timelord Victorious and Dalek Empire. I am really getting sick of the overuse of Tennant!!! Paul Mcgann hasn't had a Series and here Tennant is having a lot of different versions of his Doctor!!!

[@KatzePiano]

This is an excellent summary on pretty much all of my thoughts on bi-generation. I really hate the way it breaks the continuity of who the Doctor is and that Fourteen is apparently just around in modern day London with a TARDIS. And, if he's taking people on trips to Mars and New York, in what way is he retired (supposedly what's happening)? The Doctor notoriously bumps into alien invasions, wars etc. whenever they travel anywhere.

[@casual_bill8749]

They have different quirks The Doctors but not different personalities. However... I think what each doctor experiences does affect specific incarnations. The Rage that Ten displayed towards his regeneration made perfect sense.. he was the first incarnation to be loved and revered by the people he met, adored as a hero post Time War. That would be hard to let go of proved further by every time he fluked his way out of certain doom this incarnation actually forgot himself and became arrogant and full of huberous like the timelords of old. Only partially though as he still made the sacrifice for wilf.

[@HayterProductions]

The church on ruby road was absolutely the best special of 2023. Still not over how much I love it and can't stop watching it!

[@DillonMaynard]

Yes, The Doctor's incarnations are all the same person, but are also very different despite having similar traits. Both can be true. Eleven said it best: "We're all different people all through our lives".

[@Comicbroe405]

Yeah its definitely a divisive thing but I'm really excited for the storytelling opuurtunities here. RTD doesn't usually miss.

[@normietwiceremoved]

Bye bye Elton. Bye bye.

[@seankelly8432]

100% agree. It wouldn't have been so bad if they explained whether 14 will eventually turn into 15, or if he is now a separate entity. Hopefully its the former. Although given he has his own Tardis I'm not quite sure.

[@brobro9169]

1:42 I personally think the 9th doctors regeneration was the best followed by 12’s, 12’s era is very misunderstood imo. His version of the doctor was the one who faced up to his traumas and went through the most change, that’s why I he’s known as the one who accepts, by series 10 he’s abt as morally good as the doctor ever gets…and his final speech is him reminding himself of the lessons he’s learnt as this incarnation so that the next doctor doesn’t go off the rails the same way he did in series 9. The cherry on top…”Doctor I let you go” 9 on the other hand was only here for one season, and his is the best because while he did introduce us to the modern age of doctor who, he still assured us as the audience that all is well and gave us a clear insight into what regeneration is.

[@thevirgologychannel6215]

Great video and I absolutely agree with you when it comes to regeneration. It was my biggest bugbear with New-Who and RTD. Especially the idea that regeneration became a death and not a renewal. I suppose when you become show runner you can do what you like. To me RTD writes the Doctor like it’s his boyfriend and he really doesn’t want to let go of The 10th. I noticed this attitude change when it became fashionable in the new fandom to say “My Doctor !” To me this separated each incarnation almost like choosing your favorite James Bond. RTD has expressed his dislike of multi-Doctor stories but has created 3 versions of the same Doctor. I think there is something telling about how he sees the character. Maybe the Bi-generation idea that all the Doctors version exist is a way to give the “My Doctor” fandom a way to imagine their favorite never regenerated and continue their adventures. Personally, I think it’s more powerful for the Doctor to change and grow and remember his adventures with multiple faces. Regeneration is a renewal and as the sixth said “The same but different”. Ncuti looks great and if you look at Lenny Henry’s Doctor Who spoof from 1985, you’ll notice there may have been some influence on Ncuti’s new costume. It was Lenny who once said their would never be a black Doctor

[@WiloPolis03]

I love the idea that the Doctor intentionally changes themself during regeneration depending on what kind of phase they want to go through

[@Pattabazza]

personally, given that 15's Tardis had things inside it that 14's didn't when the Tardis got split i'm REALLY sold on the timey wimey thing of 14 getting yoinked back into the past as he becomes 15 and the same thing happening to the Tardis personally it makes Bigeneration more interesting because it's less of a replacement for ordinary Regeneration but a temporal hiccup that delays the actual regeneration for a while until the previous incarnation's timeline catches up to the next incarnation's

[@zocialix]

It's also important to take into consideration Russell straight up lies about future potential plot points just to throw people off his actual twists.

[@friendlyotaku9525]

yeah that's pretty much how I see it!

[@Braddicusfinch]

I always had the headcanon that Eleven was only melancholy because A- He was definitely veering more towards indulging his narcissistic side at this point i.e. Time Lord Victorious and B- It was almost a sort of guilt/existential crisis around what he had done to John Smith, albeit a crisis he dealt with by being melodramatic and a tad self-absorbed (self-sacrifice for Wilf aside, of course). I know that probably wasn't the intention, but it very much fills the gaps for me personally, and actually is retroactively helped with Fifteen's comments about Time Lords and therapy etc. As for the TARDIS, not a fan of the duplication but my THEORY is that something will happen to bring both Doctors into play (RTD is probably lying, let's face it) and Fourteen has to sacrifice the duplicate TARDIS for some sci-fi reason, and either goes with it, or gets to live his own human-ish life

[@The_Triple_Point]

Thank you so so so much for this. It's really hard to be a fan of Who these days when so many are Moffat-hating/RTD-Tennant Stans/Chibnal era only fans that perpetuate the worst narrative choices for the show. You understand Doctor Who from a story telling level and acknowledge how Moffat really did get is right with the show.

[@MaybeAnnatar]

People always talk about Moffat not being able to let characters go while not accepting that RTD is the same with now literally every incarnation of the Doctor. At least Moffat doesn't view regeneration as a bad thing like RTD does.

[@wisequigon]

They bigenarate the Doctor just to keep David Tennant Doctor as a backup when the next season will drop the ratings even more...

[@McMomfaceplustwo]

I think the idea was that in other universes the doctor bi-generated at different times in his regeneration life, so each universe gives a chance for one of them to linger and slow down with the amount of experience they had gathered to that point. With the “rehab in reverse” technically the other doctor can always do that while timelord mind meld they do when it’s convenient and moves the story along and then could mentally meld their experiences and lessons. Also just knowing that part of him is stopped, taking the time and exploring the path that he hasn’t tried, frees him to move on and not wonder what could be. On top of that, he’s leaving someone there to look after his loved ones. I can see how that’d be freeing and therapeutic, leaving him to explore other mysteries.

[@Galgomite]

I like to think of regeneration as the memories of the doctor loaded into a new brain. It’s a whole new body so it’s not really the same person. It isn’t enough for me to see him changed in appearance only when he acts so different each time.

[@Spooky_Magooky]

I think your explanation is more in support of the idea that the doctor is still the same person between regenerations, their consciousness is shared and kept throughout the process even if the body changes shape and form. Superficially each iteration acts differently from each other but I see that more as like with people, reaching a new chapter of your life and being a slightly different you. Cause we all do that, we are constantly in flux as people and our personalities develop and shift but still at core we are the same people to an extent. To me the Doctor is the same in that way, each regeneration is just a different chapter that comes with a different quirk, obsession or interest but it's still the same person, just ever-developing.

[@GummyDinosaursify]

A new phone but you've transferred photos and videos from your old phone.

[@sealionstudios8597]

I proposed after watching all three specials that, with the kind of concepts and storytelling that they tried to do, would Steven have been the better choice to bring back instead of Russell? He could've maybe ironed them out in a more satisfying way and made it still feel like classic Doctor Who while still moving it in a new direction

[@cliverichardson2903]

When you said "understudy" that hit my problem with bi-generation right on the head. The show didn't help push you onto Ncuti being the main doctor allowing David to say "I'm the Dr" first and allowing him to be the one that seals the toy maker makes it feel like this was David's episode. I'm sure Nucti will do an amazing job but with David also on screen he definitely felt like he was the understudy

[@alexnewby2004]

I quite like bi generation actually. The way I interpret tenants regeneration is that 10 was just the form he was most comfortable in, and being forced to change hurt emotionally. Its the idea of being comfortable in your own skin. That in mind, bi generation seems more like 2 halfs of the doctor becoming 2 separate entities. The half that wishes he could go back to a body he used to have, and the half thats excited to see who he becomes next

[@SSJPENGUIN]

Completely agree we don't need major shake-ups for a while!! That's why I'm excited for Ncuti's run to hopefully just be a straight forward thrilling series

[@bexrex97]

The bigenaration just ruins some of the magic, it felt like the easy way out for the writers and fans of DT (and I loved him). They also didnt explain it well at all. You're video resonates so much with me!🎉

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

I think they did a bad job of explaining it, but they did explain it. The point of the "Bi-Generation is a myth" line is to show this is another side effect of the salt at the edge of the universe thing, another superstition/mythical thing that has now made its way into reality. The new run under RTD is gonna have some more fantastical elements, and they wanted to try to show that more in the specials, and they just were already pushing the runtime of Giggle and had to cut it short before properly explaining, which really hurt it

[@TheJadedJames]

As stupid as it was (seriously, I laughed, which is the same reaction I had to the Timeless Child) for me, bi-generation felt like such an obvious work around to easily slot Tennant into the 70th Anniversary that I didn’t think about what a terrible disservice to Ncuti Gatwa it is. 14 & Donna’s happy ending means your spin-off media about them doesn’t have to be trapped in 2008 anymore. They aren’t going to do a full time show. That’s insufferable and a shame for Ncuti if people seriously decide he is less legitimate now because as much as I hate the bi-generation,Ncut owns this role already. Overall this was a really good episode and I understand but don’t share Full Fat’s gripes. For better or worse, RTD is absolutely still writing at his previous competency. The corny ending is all that stops it from being a stand out for me,

[@darthmummy7889]

😂 okay ncuti is crap in the role just like Jodi

[@TheJadedJames]

@@darthmummy7889 That is just wrong. Ncuti was so impressive out of the gate that he rescued an ending I was otherwise laughing at. That man just straight up is the Doctor.

[@l0gan359]

I feel like it undercuts Ncuti's era. Also regeneration happens when a timelord dies to cheat death by changing everything about them. 14 was shot by the laser and should have died no? I'm also not big on RTD trying to create a "docterverse" because it shows he's treating them as different people. Regeneration is a very good lore way to recast a character for 60 years but like why do you need to keep 14 around? Like so he can have his own adventures? But it's the same person the stories shouldn't really play out much different depending on what the doctor looks like.

[@myxomatoad2]

Thank you. My friends and I have all pretty much brought up the same points. I’m optimistic because Gatwa is so immediately great, but I think the Giggle unnecessarily complicates things with bi-generation and a poor explanation of what the hell is going on. It’s muddled and confusing. That said, agreed that the Toymaker is great but underused. Donna was underused as well but that feels like a result of the episode being packed with a lot. I liked Mel being there, as it played off of Power of the Doctor and gave us an update on a classics companion, offering a rebuttal to the Toymaker’s puppet show. Aaaand the line “I’ve made a jigsaw of your life”. I hadn’t heard RTD say anything on it yet, but I’ve been curious as to what that meant. Anyway, Eccleston and Smith still have the best regenerations. Cheers!

[@CaptainLettuce]

Bro we need the Christmas special review! I've loved every review you've done so far, so looking forward to the next one.

[@melodiousapollo7307]

My biggest wish is that we could've made the Toymaker storyline a three parter for the specials, opening with Blue Yonder to set it up. I think if they had more time to focus on what, in my opinion, was the most important special of the three and its story line, they could have let characters have more moments as well as give a better look into the Toymaker as a character and how he changed the planet in 2023.

[@spiderlord19]

I like your points, I see it more as 14 is all the stress and trauma the doctor has let go in sense. But I still think the TARDIS shouldn't have been split.

[@Starsteam1]

There's no explanation given why the other Doctor can't help.

[@mrdr0161]

Why can't UNIT help in every earth story? Why can't Gwen? Why can't Martha? Ace? Tegan? Luke, Clyde, Rani? The Class lot?

[@Starsteam1]

@@mrdr0161 Exactly.

[@-haclong2366]

01:30 The 9th Doctor said that he wouldn't become a different person to Rose and basically told her that he was the same. Only the 10th Doctor explicitly said that he was someone else.

[@owenmonckton2713]

I completely agree with the 60th being a 3 part story. To be honest that what I thought the 60th was going to be so when it turned out to be 3 separate stories I was quite disappointed.

[@ladrok97]

As a 3 part story it would be so amazing. And it could easily be done as a 3 parter.

[@Qaellow]

I wished they committed to clarifying 15th got regenerated back in time to that moment. You could then change the 'Game of catch' to 'Guessing how many fingers behind my back'. 14th witnesses the correct answers, 15th remembers them. Something similar to when 10th met 5th. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey

[@Annonymousoctopus]

I get the impression that the weird tv remote sonic screwdriver is to stop the sonic being like a magic wand. It’s so often the Deux Ex Machina, especially with the 13th Doc, which was so boring. With it looking less like a wand, I think it’s a sign of it’s functionality evolving

[@triaina_]

My idea is probably stupid for how the next regeneration could work I feel like 14 and 15 on the final episode could meet up on an adventure and something happens where regeneration comes into play they hoth regenerate not matter what if only 14 is dying and regenerates the same thing happens to 15 and then they kind of fuse into the 16th doctor and one tardis gets destroyed permanently

[@maxsmith305]

I'm trying to think of it like how a reptile or insect would shed its skin, but in this way by splitting in two and leaving 14 to retire, he's been left with all baggage inside him allowing 15 to keep all the memories but not let it stop him from doing what the doctor does best

[@Arkus]

I like the theory that 14 eventually becomes the Curator.

[@waterwaveybaby]

The problem is a complete lack of consequences, if they want to give the 10th Doctor a happy ending, fine, but letting him keep his Tardis too, at what point does it just become expensive fanfaction? They just keep making up new rules on the fly to take the story in the direction they want to go in, which is just lazy writing

[@Photons_Dont_Matter_Much]

and they did it twice, remember there's a half human 10th doctor who also has a tardis, this is not just lazy, it's a repeat, and a bad one, just let tenant go already.

[@ladrok97]

"at what point does it just become expensive fanfaction?" For me it was 60th specials. I would be ok if toymaker would "postpone" 13-th regeneration into 15-th and thus why we got 10-th again. But we got 10-th again just because RTD wanted to do so... and then we got bi-generation so fans could hope for more fanfiction from RTD...

[@TrooperTree]

i'm only at 3:15 but i view the personality changing per doctor thing as more of a thing the doctor says about himself. The changing of the face helps him (and us) to realize how much the doctor has changed, but the visible change just helps to highlight this fact making it seem like he is an entirely new person. the sadness that comes with regeneration could be because deep down he is scared of facing who he is/was. He could also just be very vain. i didn't know where to put this in, but essentially the doctor thinks he is becoming a whole new person, but doesn't know that this is because his regeneration is a very loud reflection on his life.

[@alex_and_er_g]

Optimism: I think RTD found the best balance of bringing us Whovians back on board after a rough few years, at very least via a Ten and Tate palate cleanser / nostalgic smile, without writing off Chibnall's work completely out of the picture. Tough juggling act, that. If the RTD2 transition was either (1) retcon Chibnall into obilivion or (2) go further down that rabbit hole, that's a guaranteed upset for a larger portion of viewers. I think the anniversary trio of episodes was really well balanced given the challenges.

[@MrBobthened]

I agree. I don’t really have a problem with the bigeneration, especially if it means that 14 will eventually get zapped back and become 15 (they could have made that more clear in the episode though, because I’ve seen a lot of fans confused about it). But I also don’t really get the point of it - The Doctor being still stuck on all their trauma from the entire modern era is an invention of RTD2. 13 barely acknowledged anything that happened in the Moffat era, and 11 barely acknowledged anything that happed during RDT1. If the purpose was to remove all the trauma then why not just do what we’ve already done multiple times and have the next doctor just brush it off and not mention said trauma ever again? If the purpose was to create another version of the Doctor who looked like Tennant that was just hanging around ready for a spin-off series then why not bring back the human meta crisis Doctor? You wouldn’t even need to come up with a silly reason why he looked older because he’s literally part human and can regenerate. You could even have stories set in the missing gap of time between when he became 14 and when he bumped into Donna, I know there’s already a comic that explains that but hardly anyone reads those.

[@Name-jb7kw]

Personally I think Bi generation shares it's biggest flaw with the timeless child. They're both too contrived. They very much just feel like plot devices for their respective showrunners. The time war felt much more organic: an extention of what we already knew about timelords and daleks

[@BradLad56]

Davies just pulled the whole myth thing out his ass to justify giving the Doctor a happy ending.

[@Leon_Tyler]

Bi-generation was good for the fact that people who love David Tennant's doctor and would have resented the show with a new doctor by having them literally talk to each other. I think The End of Time, like you said, put Matt Smith on a bad footing with the last line and people just saw Matts face and went 'well thats it then'. But here there is no definitive cut off point for the viewer to say 'well thats it then'. They get to see a bit of Ncuti alongside David and maybe will stick around. So personally I think it has benefitted Ncuti's new doctor more for viewership, but not for storytelling.

[@PikaPikaLOL]

I hope bi-generation is canonically only a one time thing and not all past and future doctors, but I'm okay if they stay split. I really like the idea that 14 retires, eventually regenerates into Tom Baker again, and becomes the Caretaker from the 50th anniversary

[@KeithAndrewPGbiz]

It's artistic license, I think. RTD has always been one to say "yes, I know this doesn't make sense, but if it serves the characters, I'm fine with it". Case in point, the finale of Queer As Folk 2 - which, until that point, has been a show painfully grounded in the reality of humanity - sees the characters fly off in a flying car. I think that is, basically, the risk you take with RTD - he doesn't really adhear to rules, even those he sets himself. That means you can get #9's "coward, every time" which I love, but you can also get #10's Jesus Doctor at the end of season 3.

[@Carsisir]

Regarding the choices of a high-card-cut and catch, they're both games that don't take a high degree of strategy. The Toymaker is a being of games and likely knows how to play every game with perfect strategy, as somewhat shown in having defeated The Master and "gods" already. Choosing a game with restricted or no strategy improves the odds of winning to a more even matter of pure chance and luck, rather than trying to outwit someone that is quite likely your equal or better at playing games.

[@samtheknight]

I do feel like you missed out on one point that at least helps the narrative. The Curator. At some point the doctor becomes The Curator, even saying he revists some old faces. 14 was the first face revisited, he's now learning to sit down and rest. What better place to sit down and relax, than a museum he Curates himself. Heck the entire museum could be his entire life in painting form.

[@darthnovii]

The memories of The Doctor carry over. But The Doctor's brain regenerates along with the rest of them. So the memories are all there, but the way they're stored, the way they're categorized, the way they're recalled, and the way they're interpreted change from regeneration to regeneration. If they were all the same person played by different actors, then so much of what we love about Doctor Who wouldn't be here. There's a reason some people say, "I love Eccleston/Tennet/Smith/Capaldi/Whittaker's Doctor the most." It's not a mistake. Each Doctor is a new person. They keep the memories, and with those memories comes certain core principles that every Doctor adheres to, but they're still new people.

[@theweirdofengland]

RTD’s ‘Doctorverse’ doesn’t really make sense and seems unnecessary as the past Doctors are already flying around space and time saving the universe - they exist outside linear time after all so there’s really no need to ‘bring them back’. This just interferes with their character development as you said.

[@Horrormaster13]

The best thing about this episode is that it proves they don't need to keep reusing the Master and the Daleks and the Master and the Cybermen and the Master every other season! There's literally decades of classic foes to choose from. I also like to think that The Curator from the 50th anniversary "Day of the Doctor" is a further down the line regeneration of 14th Doctor after he split and went on his own way.

[@Galvatron64]

I like bi-generation it explains the curator in the 50th and it's a consequence from how regeneration energy was used in the moffat era or a side effect of the new regeneration cycle, but I don't agree with RTD take that every doctor incarnation bigenerates into their own person. It seems in that case RTD is trying to soften up the canon too much.

[@Morphed626]

Great point about letting 14 regen into 15 and let 15 hang with the Nobles for a time to recover. This bi-gen is messy out of the gate and to me, and a sign of bad writing that it needs a commentary track to explain it (terribly I might add). Funny how despised Moffat was for a time but its always his stories I rewatch the most, especially 12s

[@RoyalKingOliver]

This was just Doctor Who getting Disney-fied by doing nostalgic fan service and keeping everything happy with no consequences. It was a terribly done twist that served no purpose. And it ANNOYS ME how many people on Twitter praise RTD for this while crap on what literally was Chibnall last year. Like wow, THIS is acceptable but none of the past 3 years weren’t?

[@betsalelsteinhart3024]

Totally agree with your summary of regeneration. Moffat absolutely nailed it and that’s the way I have always seen it. 11 into 12 was as perfect as could be. Thanks!

[@RedCaio]

I think the best reason for 14 sticking around is that showing up just for three episodes would be really weird so I’m glad he’s still around vaguely

[@czerwonykwadrat6843]

Bigeneration is just a fangirl pleasing move who would go into an existential crisis if he regenerated again

[@marionbaggins]

I was more of a Smith Fangirl myself because he was my Doctor...

[@Thebritishhistorian]

Howdy Full Fat Videos! A future video suggestion/request. You did a video not too long ago about how Doctor Who paved the way for the Marvel MCU model. I've been rewatching all of New Who in preparation for the new series and have just wrapped Torchwoods 'Children of Earth', and you know what I thought? "Children of Earth is how you do a Disney Plus series right." and by extension, Torchwoods 'Miracle Day' doesn't. I wonder if there's a video here? My surface-level notes in making an 5 hour TV movie work is essentially~ 'Don't wait till the final episode to explain what the story is.', 'Give time for your villain to breath and be a threat', 'Plan ahead so the series is exactly as long as it needs to be, not more or less.' and finally 'Make it an event, unlike a single entry in a series.' Would love to get your take on this.

[@Xottapchenko]

Come on, why can’t anyone just listen properly to what’s being said? RTD’s words about “I think all of the Doctors bigenerated” is HIS HEADCANON, not the reality. And it’s literally readable in the episode that 14 eventually becomes 15. What the fuck, people, I’ve already had King Crimson in JoJo fandom, now I have King Crimson in Doctor Who

[@callmev3531]

3:12, This specific aspect of growing older or changing throughout one’s life is the exact issue 10 had with regenerating, only amplified to an absurd level, as he had grown extremely attached to that version of himself (hence the belief that not all Doctor incarnations share the exact same personality despite having the same memories as each other), just as people can prefer different eras of their life or wish they could do more as their younger self before becoming old, losing those opportunities. 11’s often juvenile mannerisms nature can be interpreted as a response to this kind of longing to not experience the burden of age, the weariness, the grief which 11 hides from others and himself with his silliness and eventually manifests in 12’s cruelty, anger and sorrow (to build off a commentator below, 10, 11 can be interpreted as manifestations of denial, bargaining, while 12 is a manifestation of anger and depression). 12 even shares 10’s aversion to changing, to going on experiencing more of this chaotic, painful life of loss, loneliness and pointless wandering from one adventure, one disaster to the next to avoid the horrors behind him. But in facing 1, his youngest incarnation who is simultaneously an old man, 12 decides to allow himself to change, to grow older, to let himself live again, and his next incarnations all the way to 15 manifest as younger and more enthusiastic to metaphorically reflect the Doctor’s new lease on life. 14 being a happier, wiser version of 10 brings this all full circle, as this new version of 10 has the restored hope and joy to not treat his adventures as escapes from trauma or loss, but as a proper adventure filled with wonder and the company of those he loves. 4:14, Bi-generation appears the closest in concept to the Watcher and 4 being the same being that merged together to create 5. It still feels like a gimmick to create these interactions between two incarnations in the process of transitioning into their next form.