Biblical Proof of Mary's Queenship w/ Dr. John Bergsma

[@laurahill2202]

Interestingly, the spouse of the King is not the Queen, the Queen is the mother of the King. It shows up in the Old Testament with Solomon's mother. The wife of the King had to bow to her husband when she entered his presence; however, when the mother of the King entered the room, the King would raise up from his throne, go to meet her and bowed to her. Remember, King Solomon had a chair brought for his mother and she sat next to him. He requested her opinion on matters for the people and she would petition her son for others..quite beautiful...That is also where we understand how Jesus would treat his mother. She is the Queen Mother

[@aureumursa1833]

Someone listens to Father Mike's Bible in a Year podcast 😉

[@laurahill2202]

@@aureumursa1833 indeed, I do. I have been studying since 1979...hes not the only one that taught it lol It's a lovely program❤

[@philipnavin7402]

Hey can I ask, does this tradition show up anywhere else in writing? I am open to hearing about it, even if it's from a source outside the Bible. @Laura Hill

[@laurahill2202]

@@philipnavin7402 yes, back in the 1980's I remember a teacher directed our attention to England and how the Queen Mother, Elizabeth's mother, had so much power; comparing to Our Lady. Brandt Pitre is an amazing teacher on many subjects and I purchased several of his series', one, in particular, "Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary". Also, a good website I found: hmy.homeofthemother.org/index.php/blog/prodigal-son/7220-roots-of-our-devotion-to-the-virgin-mary-as-queen-mother seems very helpful for review.

[@laurahill2202]

@@philipnavin7402 May I also add, going through my different Bible study teaching videos, I have done several studies through "Catholic Way Bible Study" created and taught by Lavinia Theodoli Spirito in Kentucky. One of her Bible studies is entitled "Mary, mother of God" and I believe she discussed the Queenship of our Blessed Mother. You might want to get in touch with that Bible study as well. She is quite amazing as she was born and raised right outside of Rome, went to Catholic theological schools all of her life, is fluent in many languages, to include Latin, Greek, Hebrew, married an American and came to the United States many years ago. She is also a practicing lawyer.

[@athanasiusofalexandria4304]

I’m Orthodox, but this is great. I knew this but I hadn’t heard it put this well.

[@PZ82]

Mary did not labor in pain according to orthodox tradition. There are orthodox priests that say that because of this, this passage cannot be about theotokos, but it is rather about church who brings forth christ in each one of us.

[@bryanmcclure2220]

​@@PZ82 That's not the only problem with the passage. 1. Mary was never attacked by a dragon. 2. Mary never fled into the wilderness. 3. Was never saved by the Earth. 4. According to Catholics at least never had any other children. If you believe the woman revelation 12 to be merry do you have to accept that all these Things are allegorical not literal. But if they're not literal then why not say the woman is not literally either?

[@scottpostma6392]

@@bryanmcclure2220 Plus Chapter 11 & 13 seems to be about the future, but Ch 12 jumps back to the past? Strange.

[@berwynsigns4115]

​@@bryanmcclure2220Objection 4 is invalid and backfires on you, she's the mother of all Christians as she's the new Eve who was the mother of all living.

[@bryanmcclure2220]

@@berwynsigns4115 so your saying the children are spiritual? How about the dragon?

[@pavelrazamazov2672]

Id also like to add that the numbering of verses and chapters were later added to the Bible. If you read the book with this in mind, St John talks of seeing the ark of the covenant in heaven in the previous chapter. Its not a coincidence, because we Catholics also believe that Mary is the new ark of the covenant.

[@sabagebre8206]

That’s good point

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Indeed, we have a thirteenth century theologian called Stephen Langton to thank for the modern chapter system and sixteenth century printer and Bible scholar Robert Estienne for modern verses. Here Is fuller explanation of how this happoened: www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2016167&srcid=share

[@jerricosagala2904]

@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts even the Jews adopted Catholics chaptering and numbering of the OT. They didnt sway anymore. They just took it as it is

[@jerricosagala2904]

@Eucharist Angel Catholics doctrines today are the same doctrines of the earliest Church. Even the view that Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, is the belief of the 1st, 2nd century Christians. Jesus founded ONE and ONLY Church. Jesus promised that He will br with His Church until the end of age. Jesus promised that Hades will not prevail His Church. Only the Catholic Church alone has the claim to be the ONE AND ONLY Church Jesus founded. Thus it follows that any doctrine that is contrary to the doctrines of the Catholic Church is a HERESY. Again, Jesus founded just one only one Church. History tells us that it is the Catholif Church. It may be painful to swallow but it is the fact.

[@peacefullife5907]

@Eucharist Angel You are in no position to judge and condemn anybody to hell. Only God can do that. You are consumed with pride and hate. You should be concerned about your own soul, lest you be judged and thrown into hell.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

It seems like Dr. Bergsma would be easy to be friends with.

[@ToxicPea]

That was a good thumbnail. Keep it up Matt!

[@pintswithaquinas]

Thanks!

[@bryanmcclure2220]

​@@pintswithaquinas I don't mean offense to my catholic brothers. And especially not to you personally. But I don't understand why he was stumbled by revelation 12. Again I don't want to provoke you or to be offensive but revelation 12 is Probably the easiest passage to tear catholics in general to shreds. In fact impassed arguments, When I would sinfully let my temper Control me I would often turn to that passage as it's quite easy to beat catholics over the head with it. I am very confused why either him or you thinks that passage supports a catholic's position on Mary?

[@berwynsigns4115]

​@@bryanmcclure2220obvious bait

[@bryanmcclure2220]

@@berwynsigns4115 for what?

[@JC_Forum_of_Christ]

@@pintswithaquinaswhat was the sign in heaven? Mary giving birth was a seen from earth in heaven?

[@ScottSteubing]

The imagery in Revelation 12:1 is similar to the imagery in Genesis 37:9, Joseph's dream. Due to that I always saw the woman in Revelation 12 being representative of Israel, with the Messiah coming from Israel. While I can see the Mary connection as well, having Revelation 12 say that Mary is divine eternal royalty is a bit of a stretch.

[@GaryCrant]

It is, especially because Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and did not have labor pains. The woman in Rev 12 clearly is in labor though

[@bryanmcclure2220]

Also consider that. 1. Mary was never attacked by a dragon. 2. Christ did not ascend to heaven till he was 33. 3. Mary never fled into the wilderness. 4. Mary was never saved by the Earth. 5. According to the catholics at least she never had any other children. If you accept this is Mary then you have to accept that everything else in the passage is not literal. But if everything else is not literal then why would you believe that Mary herself is literal?

[@eucharistenjoyer]

What about the concept of Mother Queen when taken into consideration that that woman can be interpreted as Israel, the Church or Mary? Does it make it a stretch to combine 2 and 2 and see that it makes 4, even if this 4 is defended only by Catholics and Orthodox? Are you willing to entertain any meaning that goes against the reformers (Protestants' "Magisterium") personal interpretations?

[@evanmartin8199]

I've read thru Rev 1:1 - 6 twice, and nowhere do I see a resemblance to Mary. For one, Mary never had to flee to the wilderness.

[@wesleysimelane3423]

They want catholicism to be true instead of seeking the truth.

[@josephkocherhans5545]

Did Mary and Joseph not flee from king Herod? Last I read they did

[@carolynmmj1132]

@@evanmartin8199 Rev 12:1-6

[@tasiaflynn3549]

Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ

[@angelsoto2079]

You're supposed to read Revelation 12 and 5.

[@dannydalvi1761]

St Thomas came to India and Founded the Catholic Church The True Church Founded by Lord God Incarnate Jesus christ, Alleluia Alleluia Alleluia Glory to God Amen 😊

[@mikhailjoshuapahuyo1431]

Mary is the Queen Mother of Heaven and Earth. There are 4 kinds of Queenship 1. Queen Regent: A Kind of Queen that rule in her own power 2. Queen Regnant: A Queen Consort, but appointed by the King to rule for a mean time. 3. Queen Consort: Wife of a King 4: Queen Mother: Mother of a King So if Jesus is the King of Heaven and Earth, She is the Queen Mother of Heaven and Earth, easy as that! Catholicism knows how Queenship works.

[@bryanmcclure2220]

No Queen implies rulership ( Whether Queen mother or Queen consort), Mary has no such title not in heaven. I There only one who rules in heaven and he does not share his throne. This is a blasphemous title.

[@tasiaflynn3549]

​@bryanmcclure2220 Mary call the Mother of God. And she the Queen.

[@justinjustinjustin10]

My queen and my mom

[@DarkAngel-cj6sx]

Is it how you address her when you ask her to pray for you?

[@thepalegalilean]

@@DarkAngel-cj6sx I certainly do.

[@DarkAngel-cj6sx]

@@thepalegalilean Ok thank you. I am really learning about her and I am glad. God bless you

[@thepalegalilean]

@@DarkAngel-cj6sx You also, Brother.

[@thepalegalilean]

@Dominic Durant Absolutely. Mary had always been called the mother of the faithful. And that's us. Which means we are her children.

[@robideals685]

I also heard from someone that the mother of the King is called Queen in Israel. So as Jesus is KIng of Kings then Mary is queen in heaven.

[@chicken-911]

It's from 1 Kings. That Solomon has the special throne of queen set for his mother despite being technically married. Furthermore, read accurately, the "queen" in Psalm 45:9 would actually be the mother rather than the king's bride; who advises her daughter-to-be in the following verses. Then in Isaiah 22:22-24, Isaiah talks about the office of prime minister of the Davidic king, who holds the keys of the kingdom in behalf of the king, a direct parallel to Mt 16:18. This makes perfect sense; the Old Law and kingdom was not meant to become meaningless in the coming of the Messiah; they are actually shadows of the fulfillment of the Gospel of Salvation. The structure of the Davidic kingdom, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Church - Christ's heavenly Kingdom here on earth; in its fulfillment in Christ the King, it follows that he elevates and crowns his mother as queen of his Heavenly Kingdom; with the apostles as the ministers and Peter as the chief steward acting in behalf of the King.

[@chicken-911]

@@Melissa-sq7by You should try to understand first how I structured the comment before giving a conclusion to what I was trying to say. I was speaking to a Catholic, so I did not expound much as he already knows the true arguments. But for you, I shall explain. First things first: Mt 16:18 and Isaiah 22:22-24 are parallels showing the type of how Jesus intended His Kingdom to be formed, the shadow of which is the Davidic kingdom of the OT, to be fulfilled in the NT. Your conclusion that I drew Mary's queenship from these verses alone is a far leap from what I actually meant when I said it. You should acurrately find the argument that needs refutal not not create a strawman out of it. The true argument was that of 1 Kings that the queen's throne of the ancient Davidic kingdom was of the queen mother and not the bride; and following the Kingdom of God with the obvious analogy of the chief steward to the King and the ministers of Is 22:22-24 to Peter of Mt 16:18-19 (the chief steward holds the keys of the kingdom in behalf of the king, which Jesus clearly disposes to Peter), and Revelation 12 follows this typology. Note that the language used in the Bible regarding these Kingdom types are - in context - Jewish legalistic terms, and not just some modern analogs you can tap as an excuse to personal interpretation. And for Ps 45:9, you mentioned a SPECIFIC english translation. Do you mind quoting me that same verse in Hebrew to see if the queen on that verse is exactly the "bride" on the following verses?

[@chicken-911]

@Galactic Feather If you limit adoration to the external actions you see and not the heart, then God should have punished people for waiting for Peter specifically to touch his shadow and be healed. No, we don't give honor to the saints the same way we honor God. Incense and sacrifice is for God alone, but we can praise others just as you can praise your friend or your presidential candidate.

[@chicken-911]

@Galactic Feather Hey bro, thanks for the compliment. I kinda was stuck with that tag since I can't think of anything else. And it's catchy lol. First off, I honor you for the respectful treatment you have for people that don't disagree with you, as there are better ways to show disagreement than others. And no, it's not a Protestant or Catholic only thing; it's an issue of respectful dialogue from just any person, and I rarely get comments such as yours in sensitive topics. Sometimes even I flare up, so I'm no exception either. some history just for fun. That prayer you just mentioned is the sub tuum praesidium, the oldest Marian prayer dating back to approx. 205AD, and while preserved til this day in the Catholic Church, it is more famous in use in the Eastern Orthodox Traditions. No arguments to point out here, just some funfacts for trivia. Anyway, the prayer wasn't meant to make Mary a substitute for Christ. And even in its use as a prayer as a Catholic, I guarantee that it is not. Taking refuge in compassion, while appearing grandoise in its language (originally Greek), would in meaning be equated to taking refuge and asking for help from someone made righteous by God, but not someone Divine or equal to God. It is akin to asking a fellow Christian to pray for you, as it is stated that God is pleased by the prayers of the righteous (James 5:16), and by the Bible's teaching, does not take away from God's power (God already knows beforehand what you want, but still encourages prayers to one another). Now, if there is much favor in the prayers of the righteous, how much more are the righteous made perfect by God in heaven, as in Heb 12:23? The latter part is simply calling Mary blessed as was said in Luke 1, and I argue this would not be a theological problem, just as it wasn't a problem for Jews to address Abraham as father, as God himself promised him to be a father of all nations, for example. Pretty much this is a brief summary for it; I understand that you might still have questions about it, and thus I'm all ears for you, brother. God bless you in your journey of faith!

[@chicken-911]

@Galactic Feather I agree on you fullyon the intercession part brother. On the part of Abraham's bosom though, we share disagreement, for my position believes in the harrowing of hell (hell has 3 Biblical uses, one of which is Sheol, that is, another name for Abraham's bosom; not to be mistaken for Gehenna or the famous english conception for hell); that Christ after he died, preached to the OT dead in the bosom and lead them with him to heaven, with its gates now open due to His perfect sacrifice on the cross. I think the difference in our views on this matter lies on whether the Bible does hold to the belief of 'soul sleep' in the NT, and I understand we both have verses to cite for our positions as well. Nevertheless, I sure am glad for this dialogue. Thanks for hearing me out and for speaking your part. ☺

[@jonathaneaslick3204]

The argument that the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church has always bothered me, even when I was a protestant. The Church flowed from the person of Jesus Christ. If the image in Relevation is Christ being born, them that is a reversal of what actually happened. So the order is out of wack, so in my conclusion it could have only been Israel or Christ, however when you pair Revelation 12 with the John 19:26" When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” you see that John after reflecting on that event began to see that Mary was not just Jesus's mother but the spiritual mother of the Church.

[@guardianangel3425]

The Woman was also mentioned in Genesis when God put enmity between The Woman and the serpent. This is I think one of the basis of the Immaculate Conception, since how could a woman with original sin can become the true opponent of the serpent. Therefore that Woman is also the Immaculate Conception.

[@patricksoares6253]

Exactly what I thought!

[@tylergallagher9936]

I’ve been reading the comments to see the objections to Catholic Church teaching and I keep seeing the same two. That the Catholic Church is teaching falsehoods and secondly that anything not present in the Bible is not true. I’d like to refute those two arguments. So the official Catholic Church teaching is without error. We can see support of this in scripture, especially in 1 Timothy 3:15 where the Church is acknowledged as “the pillar and foundation of truth.” This means that the Church is incapable of teaching falsehoods and to say that it does is to say that it is not the one true church. However we know it is the church founded by Christ himself so that we may know for a fact that it is his church as established in Matthew 16:18 “you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church.” Rock in Ancient Greek from which the scriptures were translated is “Petra” and in scripture Peter is called Petros which is the masculine form for rock. So by analyzing the Ancient Greek, we can conclude that Christ did build his church with Peter as it’s Pope. This supports the foundation of the Catholic Church and it’s truthfulness. So we know from scriptural evidence that the Catholic Church is the true church founded by Christ himself and that it is the pillar of truth incapable of teaching error. Now the next objection is that anything not taught in the scriptures is not true. However we see St. Paul implore us to adhere to tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “stand firm and hold on to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” So we see that although it may not be in the Bible itself, does not mean that it is wrong. St. Paul tells us that truth can be passed on by the word of mouth. Not to mention the Bible in its entirety wasn’t compiled until roughly 200 A.D (www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/religion/bible). Many of our beliefs about the Blessed Mother came prior to the canonization of the Bible via Holy Tradition. So we see that while certain teachings may not explicitly be in the Bible, that does not mean they are wrong as St. Paul tells us to adhere to oral tradition. I hope that this has helped clarify for anyone who has held those objections or was still a little confused.

[@yeaRightAJ]

This was awesome!!

[@Fingolfin456]

Great video! I love Matt's vidoes and the Dr. Bergsma is a great guest. I myself am not a Catholic, but I can learn a lot from these brothers. I do think, however, there is a better argument against the queenship of marriage that they didn't consider. I actually have never read nor heard someone who thinks the woman in Rev. 12 isn't Mary. So, I'm interested in the arguments that point to her being the Church or Israel. Both of those seem implausible to me. So, I'd agree with Dr. Bergsma and Matt on that one. The better argument, it seems to me, is that Rev. 12 is providing the truth of Christ's birth through metaphors. For example, consider an Amillenialist who takes the woman in Rev. 12 to be Mary. She is cast in the metaphor as a queen because she is blessed among woman (Luke 1:42). But being blessed among woman doesn't get you "queenship in heaven". So, the argument, at least as it was presented in the video, is invalid. Mary's queenship doesn't follow from her description in Rev. 12. To demonstrate my point, take the dragon. Satan isn't actually a dragon. Him being cast as a dragon is to tell some other point: that is, he is evil, wild, untamable, and powerful. So, if they and I don't take it *concretely* true that Satan is a dragon even though he is described as a dragon, then we also can't take it *concretely* true that Mary is a queen even though she is described as a queen. Furthermore, just because Mary's son, Jesus, is King doesn't entail she must be a queen. If that were the case, then Saul's (from the OT) mother was a queen, which she was not, and David's mother was a queen, which she was not. So, I don't think this argument is very strong. It's not a forceful argument given that Satan as a dragon doesn't mean he's actually a dragon. In fact, you don't even have to be an Amillenialist to accpet my argument. Everyone agrees that is at least some metaphor in the book of Revelation. Still a great video! I'll always have a pint with Aquinas.

[@harmonygordon6901]

Excellent clip.

[@ianrobinson8974]

Dear Viewers. The writings of the mystic Maria Valtorta gives a first hand glimpse into the life of Jesus and Mary whose which is where the diary starts (prior to Her birth). Having read it before going through Israel, years ago, I was able to recognise parts of her writings, at first hand, as Valtorta had been so descriptive. I am sure that reading her writings would give NT scholars a very good/better perspective into the Bible! Prayers for your understanding from The great South Land; Land of The Holy Spirit. 04/06/2121

[@GaryCrant]

If the woman in Revelation 12 truly is Mary, than Catholics have to accept that Mary was in labor pains ( Verse 2 "She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.") And that conclusively means she was under the curse of sin. Luke 11:27-28 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

[@ltellsch3318]

As with Laura Hill, one has to put the whole question in the context of the time of Christ ---not some European concept of queen. Folks tend to forget that Jesus was jewish and Mary was as well-- And this is why Laura's remarks hold. Jewish tradition holds the mother as queen.

[@Atlas461]

Titus 1:14 And not taking heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn away from the truth. The commandments of men in other words tradition.

[@nicholastamas372]

Also, Christ sits on David's throne. In the Davidic Kingdom, the king's wife was not the queen - the king's mother was queen.

[@bryanmcclure2220]

Except they don't call Mary the Queen of Israel. They call her the Queen of heaven. I don't object to the former but I do the latter. The throne of David is his earthly throne not as heavenly one. There is only one throne who rules in heaven and it's not Mary's.

[@bryanmcclure2220]

@weaponofchoice-tc7qs queen of Israel not heaven

[@Atlas461]

That ended up happening because thenkings took too many wives resulting in issue with one of them receiving the title of queen. They choose to do so to avoid the trouble. People ordained it not God...

[@maurdib]

Matthew 12:46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers[a] stood outside, asking to speak to him.[b] 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

[@jakeburke838]

The same word "brother" there is used in acts to describe a group of 500 people. So a weak argument

[@Justas399]

@@jakeburke838 The same word for brothers in Matthew 13:55 is the same word used for brothers of Peter and Andrew in Matthew 4:18 and John 1:40. There are Greek words for cousin-anepsios as in Colossians 4:10 or kinsman = sungenis which is used in Luke 1:36. Never used for the brothers of Jesus.

[@TheBibleCode]

@@jakeburke838 so speaking to Mom was his Actual MOM but not Brothers.... Yeahhh ok......

[@athanasiusofalexandria4304]

@@Justas399 As a former Protestant, (I’m not a Roman catholic either) I would hesitate to be so sure about this. Even as a Protestant I agreed with Luther, Calvin, and even Zwingli, that Mary was Ever Virgin. Even then (believing in Sola Scriptura) I knew that if something in Scripture was ambiguous, and the Church has been teaching it one way since the very beginning, it’s better to err on the side of tradition...what would you say to someone who says that since Jesus says in the Scriptures, “The Father is greater than I.” And “Why do you call me good, there is none good but God.” that means Jesus is not God.

[@chicken-911]

@@athanasiusofalexandria4304 Nicely put, brother. I would trust tradition on this as well; without a pre-existing knowledge on the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity and the means for Salvation, I'm quite sure that I cannot arrive to those truths by simply reading the Bible. I'd try to eliminate the modern double standards in interpreting and trust the most credible sources of interpretation, the Early Fathers.

[@anniesue4456]

The Queen of Heaven brought me back to the church. I can't imagine Heaven without females and believe that God gave us the power to create life WHILE saying we are all evil ... I don't think so.

[@jacksonkerr2095]

A preface before I post anything - I understand that the book of revelation is full of symbolism. There are a lot of things which are unclear, and which have not necessarily been revealed to us yet. The argument I've heard about Revelation 12 is that the Woman in the wilderness represents the nation of Israel. Others have argued that it represents the Church. Another consideration is whether this is a literal passage or metaphorical. When we look at symbolism in scripture, it's usually one or the other, dreams and visions usually having a lot of symbolism and some prophetic words being literal (as in the command of God to Moses that he should approach pharoah to have Israel released from slavery.) Seeing that the vision includes a dragon pursuing a woman through the wilderness, but the woman is given wings so that she may escape the dragon, I'm pretty sure that this one is metaphorical. I am not saying I disbelieve the supernatural - in fact I believe it's an essential part to our Christian faith. But to understand passages like this, we need to understand what kind of passage this is - then we can begin to work on meaning. Biblical poetry like the psalms is to be understood very differently than the book of Exodus, which is a historical account.

[@nkpsh2010]

@@jacksonkerr2095 I love your thinking. If only we all look at scriptures as per your wisdom.

[@mazikode]

Thank you Matt! Your show is amazing and thanks for having Dr Bergsma

[@iservHim]

Protestant here. The only reason the crown thing doesn’t instantly make her the queen of heaven in my mind is that Scripture tells us that many of us will, at the judgment seat of Christ (the Bema), receive various crowns for works that we did on earth. Just some quick examples: Shepherds will receive the crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4), those who remain steadfast under trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12 & Rev 2:10), those who love his appearing will, along with Paul, receive the crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8). So yes, we all know that Mary was faithful and is the mother of the king of kings, and is worthy of love and respect, but mothers of kings are not necessarily queens and having a crown in heaven does not make you a ruler of it. Calling Mary the Queen of Heaven implies rulership in some way which is what rubs us prots the wrong way. Love the channel and will continue to like and comment for the algorithm! Blessings to all!

[@Justas399]

Catholic scholars Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482): a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications. In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

I think the verse is multivalent. No doubt Mary's life looks like the life of the Church, not unlike Moses and others.

[@thepalegalilean]

That's one interpretation. So what? The criteria can refer to both. Also you once again cite something behind a paywall, obliterating your credibility once again, because you're too much a coward to cite something that anybody can have free engagement with.

[@Justas399]

@@FrJohnBrownSJ If Mary is the queen of heaven why don't we see her in Revelation 21-22 where the new heavens and earth is mentioned?

[@cronmaker2]

As Bergsma said, the verse can apply to all 3 (mary, church, israel, they are not mutually exclusive) - it is similar to matt 16 18 interpretation of the rock (peter himself, his confession of faith, christ - all 3 were applied by the ecfs) where scripture often has more than a single meaning or application (sensus plenoir) given its heavy use of typology and allegory.

[@Justas399]

@@cronmaker2 Mary never confronted satan.

[@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes]

It’s an honour to be doing my second episode with John tomorrow at 2 pm EST, on the Jewish roots of Catholicism!

[@joeyhenson536]

So this kinda blew my mind and got me thinking if all is accounted for Jesus, Mary Queen of Heaven where does this leave Joseph?

[@c2s2942]

I usually like Bergsma, but he’s clearly reading what he wants out of this. Revelation 12 is clearly about Israel. It parallels Daniel. The nation of Israel birthed the messiah who would rule the world. The audience John wrote to would have known exactly who he was talking about: Israel. There’s a reason it’s so closely connected to Daniel.

[@MrPeach1]

Another thing that is interesting is that Jesus gave Mary to be Spiritual Mother to One of the 12 Apostles. So you can say she was given to be Spiritual Mother of all 12 Apostles. Maybe.

[@whitevortex8323]

well actually john represents the church hence she is mother of the church

[@MrPeach1]

@@whitevortex8323 I agree I was just pointing out how major of a statment it is that she is the spiritual Mother of an Apostle and possible all the Apostles. Since the Apostles are highest ranking church leaders next to Jesus.

[@briansardinas1359]

@@MrPeach1 also interesting to note that John 16 relates the sorrow of Christ's followers during his passion to birth pangs which taken in the context of Revelation 12 and John 19 further points to her Motherhood of the Body of Christ, the Church.

[@Ampwich]

​@@whitevortex8323Where did THAT idea come from?

[@anniehansen1185]

Hi! This clip is awesome! I do have a question if anyone knows the answer...that verse says that the woman gave birth with labor pains, but if Mary was without original sin then wouldn’t she be free from that physical pain?

[@patricksoares6253]

But pain and sin are two different things.We have decayed bodies because of sin, but once redeemed of sin we do not erase human consequences of sin. If that was so, Christ would not have felt hungry, pain or sorrow. But He did, so is He a sinner because of that? Obviously not. He only carried a human body, without sin, but still human.

[@yeaRightAJ]

It’s not physical labor pains it’s her knowing and witnessing what her Son was gonna go through to save the world. So labor pains is the best way to describe that pain she knew she was gonna be enduring. For the suffering of her Son. And like any loving mother would go through pain in that regard.

[@yeaRightAJ]

@Eucharist Angel stop spreading lies.

[@GaryCrant]

@@yeaRightAJ You are not reading the text, you are reading your interpretation into the text. Revelation 12 KJV 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. The text just states she was in labor pains. No mention of pain because she new something about the future (an ability that Mary did not have). The "And" in verse 3 also seperates the two verses into two separate time sections

[@jellojenna6]

I used to be Protestant, and when we went over Revelation 12, the pastor insisted that the woman clothed with the sun was Israel and DEFINITELY NOT Mary! haha

[@yeaRightAJ]

Lol like that makes no sense 😂

[@Alexander07865]

It is not Mary. John didn’t say it was Mary, y not? He knew what she looked like. The man made dogma of the assumption of Mary was formed in 1950. But the events of revelation was 95AD. 50 years after Mary died. And if Mary was sinless, but sin is what causes sin, y did Mary die? Catholic agree she died but can’t answer so then they said she never died. So when did she go to Heaven apparently? When John was alive or after? If after then y did it take 1800 years for her to do so? So rev 12 isn’t about Mary, we established that. And the dogma of the assumption of Mary is based on not seeing her go up but by her already being in Heaven and appearing to people then the dogma was formed so after she died which means she sinned, 1800+ years later she appeared to people and then people started pray to her. Praying to a human is an abomination. Jesus said to Worship the Lord God and serve him ONLY. Matthew 4:10. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@AdvocateSpirit]

​@@Jadelyngkhoi25Doesn't the bible say a male will bruise Satan's head? And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; *He* shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Genesis 3:15 NASB1995

[@EJ_7715]

12 stars. What does 12 stars have to do with Mary?

[@Alexander07865]

@@Jadelyngkhoi25 The woman in Genesis is Eve not Mary. Mary is only talked about in the Gospel testimonies about the virgin birth and a few other events and that’s it. Mary is not exalted in scripture as she is in the Catholic Church. Catholics take her position way above what scripture makes her out to be. It’s Idolatrous. God is Jealous and we are to Worship God alone. Exodus 20:4-5, Matthew 4:10. Repent and trust in Jesus

[@AdvocateSpirit]

Queenship? This is a new concept to me. I never got that vibe from the bible

[@scottwall8419]

Cause it's not there. No verse ever ties her to being a queen. Yes it says blessed among women but if you want to get an entire organization to stop praying to God himself then you introduce a heresey that sounds innocent. Jesus didn't teach us to revere, listen to, pray to, learn from or worship anything but God, also none of the prophets did either. But why then do we listen to the false church who claims to be built on something other than the foundation of christ and claiming to need to pray to anything but God. The catholic church worships Mary and it's just that simple. All things were made by him and through him and we worship God for that. Mary is not God so we do not pray to her or worship her and not to disrespect her.....she doesn't deserve our worship or praise and can not help our prayers. Only God has the power.

[@carolynmmj1132]

Rev 12:1-6

[@AdvocateSpirit]

@@carolynmmj1132 thanks for sharing. I'm that verse, the Child goes up to heaven and rules on the throne and the woman is hiding in the wilderness. Are you sure you see that as Mary. Plus, not very Queeny in my opinion. That woman in rev 12 has no throne. (I think the woman is Israel)

[@Tom_McMurtry]

People ask Mary to pray for them like you would someone else in your church except she is more holy​@@scottwall8419

[@karlthomas2429]

Don't forget that in the Gospel of Luke (1:26-38) whereupon the archangel Gabriel came to Mary and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Hail is a salute performed from a subordinate or inferior person to a person superior to the one saluting. Gabriel is saluting Mary, his superior. Full of grace indicates free from sin, completely blemish free inside and out both spiritually and physically. There is only one other Person in scripture described as full of grace, Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ. Although a human creature like you and I, Mary (Saint Mary) was regarded as the Queen of Heaven and Earth by the salutation from an angelic creature who stands before God and was proclaimed to be without blemish by the same creature.

[@christian11111]

The only problem with this argument is, does the description of Mary with royal language mean she is to be treated as more than a human, or is it symbolic of her role as a human? What I mean is, the devil is also described with royal language, and we can find verses that would describe him as a prince or king, but are we to treat him differently because of this? The obvious answer is no, the devil is a fallen Elohim that defies and combats Gods creation, we can respect his power but that does not mean we give him authority or prominence above anything else. Likewise, my issue isn’t that we can Mary queen or blessed mother, but that she is given authority and prominence above the level of a human being. Yes God used her to do amazing things, yes she deserves our respect and honor, but I believe we should not be venerating her to the point that we pray to her or see her as above the level of a fellow human being. Just my thoughts though, good video either way.

[@Ekim1740]

I debated someone about this long time ago. Then his response was revelation is not a good book to use for doctrine.

[@scottpostma6392]

Isn't it strange that After the 7 letter to the churches, the rest of revelation is about the future, but then Chapter 12 jumps back to the past?

[@MikeOnTheHomestead]

Mary will help save the Church!

[@francissweeney7318]

The Queen of Heaven is in the bible. Jeremiah 44 clearly condemns The Queen of heaven as the Babylonian pagan goddess. The catholic church did not officially adapt Mary as their queen until 1954.

[@violetd3487]

Actually the early Christians venerated her. So no, it didn't begin in the 19th century.

[@francissweeney7318]

No the early christians worshipped under the leadership of the chosen Apostles of Jesus. The follow on apostles claimed by the catholic church did nothing but change the real church. In no way is the resulting catholic church His church.

[@violetd3487]

@@francissweeney7318 And for the next 400 years? Where did they get their doctrine? How did the succeeding disciples who became bishops and priests change it? What's your basis in saying that it's only from bible that we can get the right doctrine? Does the bible say that everything should be based on it alone?

[@francissweeney7318]

The catholic church is the mother of all mega churches. Jesus stated that only the few find their way to Him.

[@violetd3487]

@@francissweeney7318 No, Mary has always been queen because Christ is King. If you want to claim that title for a pagan goddess, do so. Your version of heaven will have that godess as queen. But we claim that title for the mother of Jesus. She is the real queen of heaven.

[@thomasjefferson5727]

This verse is in reference to the astrological positions at the time of the birth of Christ. A study of the movements of heavens place these happenings on September 3rd 3 AD. This is all laid out by many scholars. Michael Heiser has the most concise and easy to follow in Reversing Mount Hermon. The catholic adaptation of pagan goddess (Artemis, Demeter, Diana, Hera, ect) is what we see them follow today as Mary. It's idolatry, it's a violation of the first and second commandment, and that is plain and simple to understand. Mary WAS a human. Not a sin-less human. She is dead, saved only by her faith in Christ and his work on the cross. She's not an object of veneration, Christ never claimed she should be, other than his mother, as we should all honor our mother and father. Does that mean she holds a special place in heaven due to the fact that Christ honors her as his mother? Maybe, but he never said that. Does that mean we should honor her as our own mother? No, Christ never said to do that. What we can learn from all the teachings and actions of Christ surrounding his mother is that we should all honor our mother, as Christ honored his.

[@philipnavin7402]

The thumbnail is awesome😎

[@dannydalvi1761]

Proud to be A Catholic 😊

[@mitchellosmer1293]

CLAIMS of the RCC 1. Catholics claim CHURCH refers to Roman Catholic Church. BIBLE says CHURCH refers to all churches. Acts 5:11, Acts 8:1, Mat 16:18. HISTORY tells us Roman Church was just one local Church a member of the Pentarchy. 2. Catholics claim Roman Church was the CHURCH CHRIST founded (First Church) or one true church. BIBLE says First Local Church was Jerusalem Church. Acts 2. Not Roman Catholic Church. 3. Catholics claim there is only One Church. BIBLE mentions both CHURCH and Churches. “CHURCH” refers to the Body of Christ Eph 5:30, Col 1:18 consisting of all churches. Acts 5:11, Acts 8:1 Mat 16:18. “Churches” refers to local churches Acts 9:31, Acts 15:41 and believers Romans 16:5, 1 Cor 16:19, 4. Catholics claim to be the first believers. BIBLE says first believers were Jewish Christians. Acts 2, Acts 11:26, NOT roman catholics. 5. Catholics claim Pope is the head of the CHURCH. BIBLE says JESUS is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH. Eph 1:22, Eph 5:23, Col 1:18. 6. Catholics claim outside Roman Church there is NO SALVATION. BIBLE says : The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”apart from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. 7. Catholicss claim the first day of the week is a Holy day, made by God. . The Holy Bible says: Isaiah 58:13-14 13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on MY HOLY DAY, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to tride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”part from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. ----Catholics claim devote to Mary to be saved. BIBLE says “apart from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. . BIBLE says “believe in Jesus to be saved”. Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16. 10. Catholics claim Roman Church inherited infallible authority from Peter. BIBLE does not say that in Mat 16 or John 20 or John 21. 11. Catholics claim Roman pontiff inherited infallible authority from Peter. BIBLE does not say that in Mat 16. 12. Catholics claim bishop of ROME = the pope. BIBLE does not say that. 13. Catholics claim there is an office of bishop of bishops/universal bishop/pope. BIBLE does not speak of such an office. History tells us the first bishop of bishops came in AD590-600s. 14. Roman Church has all the false unbiblical clergies - Roman priests, roman cardinals, roman pontiff, monks, nuns, friars, … BIBLE mentions only pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets, apostles, deacons, bishop, elders. Titus 1:5, Eph 4:11, 1 Tim 3. 15. Roman Church claim its doctrines come from traditions of Apostles. BUT 95% of roman doctrines are Not from traditions of Jesus or Apostles or Scriptures; neither practised by the Church of the Bible. --If you decide to reply, QUOTE the Bible to refute any of these!!!!

[@harleydavidson1014]

I have a question, where in the bible does it teach to pray to a preist and ask him for forgiveness of your sins? Where does this tradition come from?

[@francissweeney7318]

The catholic church is the great harlot described in Revelation chapter 17. The catholic church did not recognize Mary as the queen of heaven until pope Pius XII decreed it in 1954.

[@antoniov64]

Great , there is no contradiction between Mary as a person or as a personification of Israel...daughter of Zion... the new Jerusalem and the new Eve. Luke and John highlight this typologies.

[@chrissimon5821]

How can Revelation 12 be about Mary according to Roman Catholicism? It says the women experiences labour pain in giving birth to the male child which contradicts Roman Catholic teaching!

[@starfire451]

I'm Protestant and looking to see if there are arguments claims around Mary other than being blessed, being a virgin, and being a "woman" that Jesus commonly referred to. I wouldn't find this response convincing as it's too open. The mother of God (Mater dei) and Queen of Heaven are not titles given in scripture but were later added, and I think we need to tread carefully about what ideas were championed when Christianity merged and then superseded Roman paganism. My present understanding still therefore remains that Mary was a blessed woman, and someone who was necessary to give birth to Jesus Christ. It doesn't make her Queen of Heaven, but can be argued would make her a queen as earthly royal lines go, but she's just a human being, imperfect like the rest, albeit, possibly less sinful than most. She died and will rise again as the "woman" who beheld "her" son at the foot of the cross. Anything else is added, or interpreted, and when titles as significant as this are given to her, and subsequent praise and adoration follows, we all need to be extremely careful where that goes and what it teaches. Based on this answer alone, I'm not convinced. And kudos to Matt for questioning in an impartial manner, too, which he didn't need to do 👏

[@jesussotelo4775]

Let me ask you something, what came first the bible or the church?

[@Melissa-sq7by]

@@jesussotelo4775 The books of the Bible were written before the Church was officially formed, it’s later that the church picked which one of the disciples’ writings should be assembled to make the Bible.

[@Melissa-sq7by]

@@jesussotelo4775 *not just the disciples because the books of the Old Testament weren’t written by Jesus direct disciples... you get what I mean

[@declancronin437]

I am Catholic and love Our Blessed Mother dearly. Getting to know Mary gives us a mother's understanding of her Son. It is worth pondering on the passages of scripture where Mary is mentioned. God chose Mary a 15 year old Jewish teenager to be Mother of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel said " The Holy Spirit will come upon you..and the most high will cover you with its shadow" Lk:35-36 Mary's Womb was the Divine tabernacle of Jesus the Son of God for nine months. Mary parents St Joachim and St Anne were also chosen by God. Mary was free from original sin to be Mother of Jesus. When Mary was carrying Jesus, Mary and Jesus were one. "Haily Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee" Mary's Heart beat was Jesus Heart beat, Mary was chosen by God to carry and protect Jesus. The second and third person of the Trinity were present within Mary when she was expecting Jesus. I have no doubt and it makes total sense that Mary was free from all sin to be the Handmaid of the Lord. When Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth, she heard Mary's greeting, the child (John the Baptist) leapt for joy and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.Lk - 1:41-42 the first miracle Jesus performed from the Womb of Mary. Mary never takes from Jesus she is our mother and protector of the Church in the spiritual world to the end of times. That is what we meditate on when we pray the Rosary. Thank God for giving us your blessed Mother. AVE MARIA. 🙏

[@jerricosagala2904]

@@Melissa-sq7by wrong. Although the OT books were written 1000 yrs (oldest) before Chirst, there was NEVER, as in NEVER closed canon of OT during and after the darth of Christ until the Catholic Church canonized it. Remember that there were hundreds of books that were in circulation before and during the time of Jesus. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove it. So in effect, there was no OT Bible during and before the time of Jesus. The first ever successful attempt to canonize OT was the one did by the Catholic Church in 397 AD. So im gonna ask you again, which came first, the Bible or the Church?

[@vb92614]

You'd think Aquinas would have pointed this all out. Seems to know everything else.

[@xDELFYonceagain]

He did address the topic of Mary, but you also have to remember Aquinas is pre-reformation. A time where Mary’s position probably wasn’t questioned with the same ferocity as it is now.

[@renzothesonger5411]

@@xDELFYonceagain if St. Thomas was alive in the post-reformation era, he would Gladly, with NO hesitations, to defend the Mother of God.

[@jan-hendrikhugo6183]

If we are to take this as literal referral to Mary then 12:2 seems to dismantle the claim of the mother of our Lord free from original sin, no? Or are the child birth pains symbolic but the rest is literal?

[@doktorenko]

if Mary gave birth to Christ, the head of the elect, without pain in Bethleem, she had to feel it under the cross when giving birth to the rest of His mystical body, where the elect are represented in the figure of the disciple - note that the Holy Spirit does not mention his name, John, to emphasize that all the disciples of our blessed Lord should become first worthy of being children of this good Mother, that would lead them to him and to salvation (the cross) ; for, who can reach out for the fruit if not through the tree that bears it?

[@zoeaionios7572]

Before I proceed, I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ who serve the Lord. I just want to put out some truth and some bible reading/studying 101. Read the ENTIRE chapter and it will clearly show that this woman is Israel not Mary. It describes what happens to the woman and Mary did not go through ANY of what is described. Also, for the sake of argument, say that it is Mary, it still doesn't explicitly give her that title or mention that she has been given authority of any kind or any position in heaven. It only mentions she had the child and needed to be protected from the dragon and was given wings to flee to a safe place prepared for her by God in the wilderness for 3.5 years, which has great parallels to end time events. Please beloveds, do not make leaps and assumptions but instead read what is there, read all passages that are relevant and always think of context. READ THE WHOLE THING! God Bless.

[@DenisOhAichir]

Written in the stars folks.

[@NassauOngalewuPukapuka-hg4zt]

Glory to God Amen brother 👏♥️🙏

[@MatchObox]

When they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[@sorenpx]

Protestant here. You should change the title from "biblical proof" to "biblical evidence." This is supporting evidence for the Catholic position but not decisive proof. As a Protestant I think it's interesting and at least plausible but there remain other ways to understand this passage.

[@johncopper5128]

Thank you.

[@paladinhansen137]

Only pray to Abba.

[@jakeburke838]

The original translation of the word "pray" is to plead to. We plead to other humans all the time. Worship and prayer are two different things

[@Wgaither1]

@@jakeburke838 when you pray , it’s worship

[@jakeburke838]

@@Wgaither1 nope, where in the bible does it say that? When you plead with a police officer not to give you that parking ticket, are you worshipping him? In order to worship one must make sacrifice to, as is made clear throughout the Old Testament.

[@Justas399]

@@jakeburke838 This hymn to Mary is worship: Tis' the Month of Our Mother 'Tis the month of our Mother The blessed and beautiful days, When our lips and our spirits, are glowing with love and with praise. Refrain: All Hail! to thee, dear Mary, the guardian of our way; To the fairest of Queens, Be the fairest of seasons, sweet May. Oh! what peace to her children, mid sorrows and trials to know, that the love of their Mother, Hath ever a solace for woe. And, what joy to the erring, The sinful and sorrowful soul; That a trust in her guidance, will lead to a glorious goal."

[@Justas399]

@Roman Catholic Church Of early church fathers What does it mean to call Mary blessed? Why did she say this?

[@tiagoconstantino964]

That Bob Ross kind of song in the intro

[@aussie1602]

Yeah wow... very long bow! Generally we see things in the old testament before shown fully in the new. There is a mention of the queen of heaven in the old testament in jeremiah 44. I suspect it's the same spirit giving confirmation that Mary is the queen of heaven (Astarte and Asherah)

[@dantheman909]

You should all watch Mike WInger's commentary on Catholicism.

[@sharonshinde9640]

Based on the above argument, then Jesus is also called the seed of King David. So does that mean David is also a King or a Father of Jesus in Heaven ? Absolutely not. We need to understand that, the book of Revelation is filled with visions and hence we see different views and interpretations. Here is a thumb rule, 'Whenever things are not made crystal clear in the Bible, it calls for a spiritual insight rather than a theological one'. If God wanted to highlight the queenship of Mary, he would do so convincingly without leaving a shadow of doubt. The Bible clearly states only the Holy Triune God being Father, Son and Spirit but nowhere even mentions a fourth entity in heaven. This should have been more than sufficient hint when Jesus himself didn't call his own mother as Mother but rather called her Woman just as Adam called Eve a woman because she was taken or made out of a man(Gen 2:23) which further solidifies the argument that Mary was not an divine entity but only a good and holy woman chosen by God to bring His Son into this world, that's it. She completed her assignment and then she died like all humans do and did not rise from the dead. Hence, Mary being the Queen of Heaven is just a wishful thought of every Catholic and nothing else.

[@nocontent4908]

Rev 12 is astral theology. It is describing the movement of the heavenly bodies which foretold the coming and birth of Messiah. These aren't people in the heavens. These are the constellations. When you plot these movements into software you are brought to a 90 minute window in 3 BC on September 11th. This also corresponds to Tishri 1 - the time when most of the Israelite kings were crowned.

[@arniespencer3213]

Thank You for the interview. Our Blessed Mother is always ready to ask her Son for help. Read the book "Mystical city of God", dictated to Ven. Mary of Agreda. I prayed rosary to Our Lady and I recieved many blessings.

[@theosteven3362]

1. it is not Church, because apparently, it is not Christ that comes out of Church but it is the other way around, church "comes out" of Jesus. 2. it is not Israel. If it is Israel, then what is the point of having NEW FAITH if the OLD FAITH still bear the same "success" as the NEW FAITH. By that logic, there is no need for Jews to convert to believe in Christ (the very fundamental point of protestants which is SOLA FIDE) because apparently, God would rejoin them (the jews) together in their old faith. IT IS MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS.

[@GerardPerry]

No one who is exegeting properly thinks it refers to the church. Neither is it Mary.

[@rayveritas2361]

But Rev 12 is astrological language, encoding the date of Jesus’s birth, sept 12, 3bc

[@androidaw7927]

Based

[@NomosCharis]

Not lame. Israel, the OT church, God’s bride, DID LITERALLY give birth to the Messiah. Yes, Mary was the way that happened. There is definitely an allusion to her. But she is not the main point. There’s a reason the woman in Rev 12 has a crown of twelve stars, for the twelve tribes of Israel. She is true Israel, both OT and NT. Later in the chapter, she flees into the wilderness (after Christ ascends to heaven) and is persecuted by the dragon for 1,260 days, the same amount of time that the saints of the most high are persecuted (11:2 & 13:5). She signifies the people of God.

[@manojgabriel84]

Thought I don't believe in Queenship , its interesting

[@edithhewson7208]

Jeremiah 7 and 44 queen of heaven a pagan goddess??

[@repentnow1720]

I'm sure of her eternal virginity (disproven in Acts 1:14) and her title ("The Queen of Heaven" - NOT a biblical term of endearment BTW!) is all proven in the super-secret, super-special apocryphal book known as "2nd 0pinions".

[@Frankly7]

The description of labor pains in the passage ruled out Mary for me personally. But maybe it can still apply partially.

[@greenchristendom4116]

If you look at John's Gospel (which applies the same Gen 3:15 typology to her in the passion account) Jesus speaks of his disciples witnessing his passion in terms of a woman in labor pains. In the condensed imagery of this passage time is compressed ( so for instance the child, who is clearly Jesus is caught up to heaven immediately after she gives birth to him, obviously he actually was in earth about 33 years after that, so it's not actually giving a blow by blow account) thus her labor pains could signify her fully realizing the implications of her giving birth to him (and to us) as she shared in his sufferings at the foot of the cross. So too it is an OT image of her as Micah speaks of her as "she who is to labor." If you desire you might be able to interpret this OT passage as giving an interval between the birth and the labor, "when she who is to labor has given birth" (I actually think this passage also slides to this Micah prophecy and also Isaiah, the "sign" "in the heights of heaven" of the virgin who shall bear Emanuel).

[@scottwall8419]

Where in scripture does it say there is a queen of heaven? Where does it say in Revelation 12 that she is a queen? Where does it say there is any queen in heaven? I'll tell you what revelation 12 does say, it's also the child born to the woman was snatched up into heaven which means the woman was not in heaven. And the worst argument for a biblical text being true is literally the one he gave which is "you can't prove she is not". If she is not the son, the spirit or God himself then what does it matter, we are all servant of God. It's either servant or non servant or God.

[@processandbeing]

Well put - it's symbolic AND historically, factually founded. But "you can't rule it out" is a far cry from "this has to be true." I am a protestant growing in appreciation of Mary so I'll have to sit with this a while. I've typically found great encouragement in the Heavenly Queen of Rev 4:12 as the symbols expounded in Scripture (e.g. Lady Wisdom in Proverbs) because they draw me nearer to the text. I don't fault the "this passage is suspiciously Marian" statements but they do feel like they (these arguments, not Orthodox and Catholic conversants) are trying to draw my attention away from the text to a supposed notion of Mary rather than the mosaic of iconography embedded in scripture, of which Mary is a part. So, what does Marian devotion mean to you in terms of day to day faith and interaction with the text, your community, listening to the Holy Spirit, etc?

[@bryanmcclure2220]

I too have grown In my appreciation for Mary as a protestant from interacting with catholics. That said I agree can't rule out does not equal Certainly true, Or even likely true. Especially when you admit that the woman is at least on some level metaphorical.

[@rickdockery9620]

So much time and effort is put into justification of Mary.

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

Not really. Her role was established in Solomons Temple, the Kings mother the Queen always had a role in the temple. The Early Church Fathers elaborated on it. The Church has known this for two millennia.

[@rickdockery9620]

@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker interesting.

[@philipnavin7402]

I think a lot of effort is done because many people don't understand/know its biblical basis.

[@rickdockery9620]

@@philipnavin7402 or otherwise

[@dontworry9568]

@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker she is the woman who gave birth and raised Jesus but that are human roles that does not mean she has any stake or authority in the divine place of Heaven

[@bobpolo2964]

Will Mary be bowing her knee at the feet of Christ with all creation?

[@Oromato96]

Mary said multiple times Christ is her savior, admitting she is nothing without him

[@sabagebre8206]

@bob polo Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.Luke 1:38

[@SuperFernandinho7]

@@sabagebre8206 yes she did. Nobody is saying she is God or even equal to God. He’s saying she is the queen of Heaven. Let it go. Jesus said in the cross to John “behold your mother”. He gave His mother to us. Follow scripture and Jesus commandments. You can’t pick and choose.

[@bobpolo2964]

@@SuperFernandinho7 Or he gave his mother to John because Jesus' brothers were unbelievers

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

@@bobpolo2964 Jesus never had brothers, He was an only child. Those were his first cousins, children of Cleophas and his wife also named Mary. In middle eastern culture to this day, first cousins refer to each other as brothers and sisters. Jude and James were also His cousins, both are Saints of the Church. You can't interpret Scripture in a vacuum or through a "western modern" lens, you have to take first century cultural, linguistic and social norms into consideration.

[@MRBosnoyan]

Marian Veneration just seems like a modern day Ashera pole. I’d prefer to err on the side of caution, especially with matters not tied to salvation.

[@philipnavin7402]

Not sure if this makes sense, but you can think of it like wine. Having wine isn't bad at all but too much of it can be a problem. That's how I see it.

[@MRBosnoyan]

@@philipnavin7402 I think I understand. Are You saying that there are ways that it can be done in the way God intended and ways in which in can be abused? My family is from southern Italy; during the feast of the annunciation, they carry a statue of Mary across the town and deck her in flowers and so on…. I now currently live in Japan. During their Matsuri (festivals) they carry their Gods on Portable shrines. I’m not arguing that any practice shared by us and other religions automatically makes it pagan… I’m arguing that what most Catholics call “veneration” would be considered worship in basically any other context. I understand the concept of us as Saints join Christ and his council, however praying to people other than Christ seems like making the same mistake mankind made by following after other Gods. Christ is not just Lamb, but also Creator, King, Advocate and Intercessor. I’m not anti statues. But sometimes…. It’s just idolatry.

[@philipnavin7402]

@@MRBosnoyan Dude, I get what you are saying. I am not a Catholic myself, and I have questioned the statue stuff, haven't reached a conclusion though. Still trying to understand what goes through the mind of a Catholic during these actions. What I can say is that in a Judeo-Christian view, worship entails sacrifice and what I mean by that is the death of something else offered to someone. If that someone is not God, then it's idolatry. It seems like you understand, why one would pray/ask Mary to pray for them. I always go back to "the prayers of the righteous are heard more than the ones of the wicked" (not sure about the reference) and since we are all wicked in this state, it would be better to get a righteous person to pray for us. I like how you are being clear about your view, not just saying things to engage in a fight.

[@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo]

If you put Mary in a position of queen in heaven, then you diminish worship towards God almighty and make her greater then Jesus. That is wrong. The Bible never ever tells us to acknowledge Mary anymore than any other believing person in the Bible. She served her purpose.If you're not careful you are border line pushing worship of Mary. She can't save you or hear you. John 14:6 Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the father, but by me. No one else.

[@violetd3487]

Is worship and prayer the same?

[@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo]

@@violetd3487 They are the same. You can only worship and pray to God. Am I missing something? it's in the Bible. John 14:6 read it.

[@violetd3487]

@@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo That's according to you that worship and prayer are the same. According to us they are different. Worship involves scarifice. We do not offer sacrifice to Mary--only to God.

[@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo]

@@violetd3487 If you think it's biblical then continue, it's your life.

[@violetd3487]

@@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo Not everything in Christianity is biblical. Christ established a church, not a book club.

[@shaunaugustine8761]

"Gebirah"

[@thereseservais924]

The worship of the queen of heaven related in the Old Testament was clearly prohibited in Israël. Because it was a pagan worship. See Jeremiah 7 and 44. The serie The 3rd Adam by Spencer Smith makes the light over pagan worship from its origins until now. Mike Winger on Catholicism is a good reference too. It seriously matters.

[@jennifereverett6298]

Revelation 12 could refer to constellations aligning at that part of The Great Tribulation or to the Bride of Christ or both. But what I DO KNOW is that Mary is NOT Queen of Heaven. Catholicism is one of the grievous wolves that Jesus warned would soon enter and not spare the flock. In fact, the Queen of Heaven is spoken of as IDOLATRY in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 7:18-19 KJV "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." And if Jesus wanted to revere Mary (as anything other than a blessed human similar to John the Baptist or Paul), he would have done so FAR SOONER than in Revelation! But, instead, when she and his siblings came to take him away from teaching the public (after the accusation that he'd lost his mind), his reply in Matthew 12:46-50 was to say that anyone who does the will of the Father is his mother. "46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

[@jennifereverett6298]

I pray that Dr. Bergsma will repent and return to true Christianity, leaving Catholicism in the dust (and shaking the dust off of his feat as he leaves). 1 Timothy 2:5 King James Version "5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" Mary is NOT Co-Mediatrix, and praying to Mary instead of to Jesus or the Father is blasphemous!!!!!!

[@gailday3781]

❤️➕🍀

[@SC047074]

That was cool

[@j1j1me]

God does not make queens without a King. Jesus is the only fleshly child ever born as King from birth through the line of David. He does not marry his mother, so she is never a queen not on earth or in heaven by God. God used an illustration of the covenant as a bride whom he marry to make us understand the depth of this special relationship that He made with the people He chose to bring forth and give birth to our Salvation from. Namely through His bride who is the Jews or the twelve tribes and made the covenant with them to bring forth our Messiah. That is why they had to be faithfull and keep a clean line and NOT marry outside the tribe the Gens must be absolutely clean and Mary as virgin was the clean line wessel, whom God chose to give birth to our King of Kings. She is a jew and part of being the bride with all believing faithful Jews that through all ages since Moses to the birth of tour Royal Messiah Jesus Christ. The jews in the tribulation the little flock is also included. The bride made herself ready to be taken by her Bridegroom and to rule and reign forever and that is the Jewish people that have been faithful and tried. Those of the twelve tribes of believing Jews who will keep their faith (according to Prophesy) through the great tribulations that will purify them in their trials and not take the mark of the beast. She(they)will be the subdued crowned as a queen is crowned (the wife that is subdued to her husband by Gods rules for man and wife), she is that women, the millenniums kingdoms earthly Jews that will rule and reigned at the second coming of The Messiah Jesus Christ our coming King and she will sit a queen to reign with him on earth. The peaceful 1000 years of ruling is the marriage supper (one day is like thousand years to the Lord.) The Jews will be a royal priesthood that will reign with Christ and He will put His laws of the new covenant he will make after the tribulation period, into their minds and hearts so they can keep them easily. Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: The christians that go through Daniels seventieth week or the Great Tribulation and did and whom also did not take the mark of the beast is saints in fine white garment also purified in their trials, will be the guest at the marriage supper, but few will be able to with stand satans mark . Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. He even made the women a divorce bill (because of fornication and idolatry) but also promised that He will take her back. She will have to be faithful to Him and subdue and believe. The body of Christ the church that God is building today in this age of grace is one spiritual church that we become a member of upon salvation. This church is made up of all believers that are called out of the world by believing the gospel of the grace of God (2 Thess. 2:14) and are assembled together in one spiritual Body in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile. The moment a sinner trusts Christ as Saviour the Holy Spirit baptises him into the Body of Christ. Now, during the Age of Grace, “we are not under the law but under grace” (Romans 6:15). The Law has been fulfilled (Matthew 5:17), and God’s grace in Christ is plain for all to see. All that is required for salvation is to trust in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). He has done all that is necessary for salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). The Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of His body the church is all saved people in this present age of Gods grace and are members of it. Now, during the Age of Grace, “we are not under the law but under grace” (Romans 6:15). The Law has been fulfilled (Matthew 5:17), and God’s grace in Christ is plain for all to see. All that is required for salvation is to trust in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). He has done all that is necessary for salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). (27) For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. 28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:27-28) This present age ends by great tribulation before the second coming of Christ. Yes.. We are living in Gods grace age right now. The only thing that is holding back Satan’s plans and the releasing of the Antichrist is the Holy Spirit. When the believers are taken to Heaven in the rapture, the Holy Spirit will leave as well. The Holy Spirit is on earth now in the church and the believers, once we are taken in the rapture the Holy Spirit will be taken from the earth as well.

Now no one knows when the rapture will happen. I hope this perspective from me, will be a blessing and an eye opener from God.

[@tvhead7074]

“He does not marry his mother, so she is never a queen not on earth or in heaven by God.” You’re mistaken. Solomon was a King of Israel yet his mother Bathsheba was the Queen.

[@j1j1me]

@@tvhead7074 She was crowned because she was David's wife She will not be heir to the throne after David’s death if there is a rightful male heir a son, he will sit on the throne and rule and his mother will keep her given title of queen. in other words, Bathsheba was crowned queen because of a man, David her husband. and Solomon was crowned after a man his father David as rightful heir to the throne. 2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

[@j.victor]

I'm a partial preterist. This interpretation seems plausible. Bum I'm protestant in my theology. This seems to me a heresy...

[@whitevortex8323]

why dont you try and read what some of the very ancient christians wrote about this topic and decide whats heresy based on 1st, 2nd and 3rd century christians who knew the apostles and their succesors.

[@PHIL_PD]

I would say it's only possible to see this Chapter as referring to Mary because you want to see it that way; Revelartons is far too full of allegory to make this so much 'in your face'... the Gospels give a rather different image of Mary.

[@cheechak481]

I agree....

[@loremipsum2989]

I don't agree. See Luke 1: "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

[@PHIL_PD]

@@loremipsum2989 so what? Elisabeth is equally blessed in prophesying...Mary was chosen, so?

[@loremipsum2989]

@@PHIL_PD The Holy Spirit spoke through Elizabeth honouring Mary. Do you want to argue against the Holy Spirit?

[@PHIL_PD]

@@loremipsum2989 you're splitting hairs

[@dannydalvi1761]

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of God Intercedes for me my mother Nama Mary. Amen

[@scottpostma6392]

I thought the Holy Spirit intercedes for us?

[@dannydalvi1761]

@@scottpostma6392 ,Just Recite the Holy Rosary and see the change in your Life,do it Devoutly. Amen

[@scottpostma6392]

@@dannydalvi1761 How will it change my life?

[@dannydalvi1761]

@@scottpostma6392 ARE you a Christian? Catholic? Answer

[@TheBiblicalTruthPodcast-fz7mo]

Read your bible please, Mary can't pray for you. Jesus is the only way to heaven, put down that idolatry thinking.

[@declan-kayodekeegan1598]

I still don't see any precedence for the "worship" of Mary in the bible as the Catholics do.

[@thepalegalilean]

Slander is sin. I would stop doing that. You liar.

[@Frankly7]

"Worshipping" Mary is only something protestants accuse Catholics of doing

[@marcihf217]

Honor and veneration are not the same as worship.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@marcihf217 Not according to Protestant theology. They've so disconnected themselves from true worship, that true worship looks like heresy to them.

[@marcihf217]

@@thepalegalilean Yes I know. Very sad. I pray for them every day.

[@joanschutter5863]

In the Magnificat Mary says, "My God and my Savior" (Luke 1:46-55). Why would a perfect person need a savior? In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus rebuked the person who blessed/worshipped His mother. Praying to or worshipping anyone other than God is idolatry. The Queen of Heaven mentioned in Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:17-25 refers to Ishtar or Ashtoreth, the pagan goddess of fertility. In Revelation 12:1 the Greek word is "woman" not queen. Allegorically "women" in the Bible often refer to a religion, in this reference, Judaism. Your exegesis of Revelation 12:1-3 is very questionable!!

[@bryanmcclure2220]

I'm sorry but revelation 12, You were stumbled by revelations 12. How, Seriously how you never read the passage. No offense to my catholic brothers but I have literally torn catholics to shreds with revaluations 12. If you want to mercilessly attack catholics it's literally the best passage. I am shocked that you were stumbled by it.

[@shawnglass108]

Yeah incredibly poor argument. Have you even read Ezekiel 16? It’s all about Israel being a woman and God adorning her. Not that the crown of 12 stars shouldn’t tell anyone reading that she is Israel anyway. No Apostle in any Epistle or Gospel ever refer to Mary as anything more than a mortal woman. She’s barely even mentioned at all after Jesus’ birth and where she is mentioned it is never as anything but a mortal woman. Mary worship is absolute idolatry! Praying to anyone other than God is blasphemy. There is one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5…One mediator. Stop the idolatry and man-created doctrines and start believing God’s word…Here is just a part of Ezekiel 16. You should read it all but notice the crown God puts on Israel’s head: “I also adorned you with ornaments and put abracelets on your hands and a bnecklace around your neck. 12 “I also put a aring in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a splendid crown on your head. 13 “Thus you were adorned with agold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey, and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to Royalty” Ezekiel 16:11-13

[@aahlstrom93]

Nice thumbnail, lol.

[@realstatistician]

You guys spend your time talking about the weirdest stuff. Really. This has no bearing on anything. Perfect for a podcast. 👍

[@AndrewOfBethel]

Seems to me like the "blessed mother" is separate from marry, or the name "marry" would have been used. Seems like the blessed mother would be the holy spirit portion of a trinity for women, believing God as we know him to be the head of this image and likeness as well -I'm not personally affiliated with any denomination, open for all discussion 😁

[@maurdib]

Jeremiah 7:8 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Jeremiah 44:25 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have declared with your mouths, and have fulfilled it with your hands, saying, ‘We will surely perform our vows that we have made, to make offerings to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to her.’

[@philipnavin7402]

Worship of Mary (or thinking she is a goddess)is condemned, but veneration is not worship. Hence veneration of her is not wrong.

[@maurdib]

@Youdowonk let's hope God buys your excuse you learned from a man. He is your judge, not I, and he has spoken on this

[@maurdib]

@Youdowonk if you say so, but if you just read the Bible yourself, you'd never have come to that conclusion

[@maurdib]

@Youdowonk try it, Listen to the Bible, from start to finish, without listening to any man about it until you finish. Then see if you would come to the same conclusion as they did. It changed my life

[@brianredmond4919]

Try reading the rest of Revelation 12. This guy would buy the Brooklyn bridge.

[@hiswitness37]

No, that woman is the church… not ‘queen mary’. To read Revelation literally is a mistake; it is filled with symbolism. Please see this recent conversation between a catholic priest and I regarding the ‘divinity’ of Mary. Me: I’m having trouble with the belief Mary was holy her entire earthly life. From what I know now the concept is she had to be the perfect ‘vessel’ for Christ to be perfect. My argument would be, wouldn’t her parents then have to be perfect too and so on? She represented His humanity, not His divinity… which came from the immaculate conception by the Holy Spirit; that’s why Christ wasn’t fathered by Joseph. “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” “Surely I was sinful from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Priest: Thanks for reaching out. The Hail Mary has all its roots in scripture. Here is a great podcast for you to listen too about the Hail Mary prayer. (Link provided by priest) Me: I checked out your resource on Mary. I find the scriptural explanations to be a stretch. Do you believe she had original sin? Full of grace” means full of undeserved love. “Highly favored” means it was a blessing to be chosen to be the mother of the Messiah. My door is definitely still open to learning more here. Perhaps, like Abraham, God ‘credited it to her as righteousness” that she walked with God as much as possible and was chosen to be Jesus’ mom. I just think she still had original sin, being only fully human and not divine, whereas Christ had no original sin because His Father is God. Priest: We must realize that her sinless birth is a dogma of the Catholic church which is an infallible teaching promulgated by the church whom Jesus entrusted with full teaching authority. Remember, Catholics believe in both Scripture and Tradition, like two lungs breathing life into the church. Dogmas safeguard the deposit of faith. Believe it or not, at one point there were heritics who taught that something different than the oneness of God and the Trinity. Dogma, promulgated by the church safeguarded that teaching that you and i and all protestant churches enjoy today. So if the church has the authority to do that, why not also the authority to declare Marys immaculate conception. Me: Surely you understand that, because sinful men make up the church, sinful practices can infiltrate the church. Look at how 6% of priests fall into the sin of pedophilia. Factions even within the same synods/ denominations (whether catholic, Lutheran, etc.) argue/ differ over interpretations/ traditions. Priest: Im not sure why you bring up sinful men/practices. That has no bearing whatsoever on the teaching authority of the church. Factions may argue about things that are not part of the deposit of faith, but dogmas and scripture are infallible, meaning they can not be changed or disputed. Me: This particular teaching is questionable to me, as it’s not explicitly taught in Gods word, as I can see. It seems like it was interpreted by a priest and put into practice. Priest: Where does it say that Gods revaled truth comes to us only in the bible? Does it say that in the bible? Me: Two answers to this.. Yes, in that God’s word is the source of Truth. Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. John says that Revelation is the end and let no one add or subtract. I realize this is highly contested but it does make sense to me. No, in that God is also revealed as the still, small voice inside us… or conscience, one could argue. I would say that even that, though, is an echo of sorts from the word through time. If anything, Gods word is being perverted/ diluted as the power of Satan manifests more in the world in the birthing pains to the end. I think one of the most dangerous places to be is to think our thoughts, or those of any mere man, are Gods thoughts/ will. I’ve seen the pathology that can produce. I also think another dangerous place to be is to claim one ever has the fullness of truth. That is, to put God in a box and say… Here it is, I know it all. Pride comes before the fall. It is far better to keep one’s heart open… to further ‘revelation’ of the truth. Like me, I’ve learned that many Lutherans misinterpret Gods word; that was revealed in my study of Gods word and meditation and experience. I’ve also seen that Catholics have mis-stepped, as you yourself admitted in our podcast. During the time of the reformation, for instance, forgiveness was being sold, monetarily, in the form of indulgences. There’s a difference between what God inspired through the prophets and established in the canon of scripture and having new understandings of that scripture as one moves along in their walk of faith. This is a big part of ‘wrestling with God’. That, and simply making our beliefs congruent with our actions. Priest: (No response) I added one more point from Mary’s song (God, my SAVIOR - showing her own admission to needing to be saved) I may have upset the priest when I called it idol worship. He called me ignorant and didn’t wanna talk about it anymore. Funny, I think he was projecting his own insecurity onto me when he called me ignorant; easier for him to stay ignorant to the truth when presented with clear evidence than to pop the bubble he’s constructed for himself; we don’t always want to give up the narrative we’ve been telling ourselves or the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Sandals dusted; I tried.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

The book of Revelation I don't accept as part of the canon of Scripture. I'm in agreement with Luther when he said that he couldn't detect that the book had been inspired by the Holy Spirit. One shouldn't base Christian doctrine on what the book says. It's open to a multitude of conflicting interpretations. And the threat at the end of the book that one won't inherit eternal life (22:19) if one rejects it I regard as false. The book wasn't universally accepted as being part of the canon in the early church. It was disputed with many rejecting it as Scripture. So I don't accept that Mary is the Queen of heaven because such a belief has no foundation in what is actually inspired Scripture. There's no Scriptural basis for believing that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven and stands at the side of Christ as the Queen of heaven. This is just idolatrous nonsense. We shouldn't pray to her or expect her to be aware of what is happening down here on the earth. She's simply in the company of other deceased Christians waiting for the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world.

[@InglésconRobert2025]

She was just a human. Jesus was God.

[@athanasiusofalexandria4304]

Absolutely correct, thank you for re-affirming a very central doctrine. We always need to remember the basics. (Serious statement ...No sarcasm intended.)

[@francissweeney7318]

Chapter 12 is about the nation of Israel. Jesus himself never even called Mary mother. Mary herself testified to this. The catholic church is truly the great harlot of chapter 17.

[@klaciko]

With all due respects. This doesn't prove anything. Mary is no the queen of heaven. She died like the apostles did. This is only teach in Catholic circle and is not Biblical. Is this doctrines of Mary would it be as important as Catholics make it, Jesus and the apostles with it teach more about it. Dont you think? Read the history of the church, no from the Catholic view, which by the way they were the ones killings jews because apparently they killed Jesus. Our God is One ,Father, Son and Holly Spirit.

[@iggyantioch]

Father,son, holy Spirit??

[@arcijsb3441]

yeah, this made me more skeptical of Bergsma. i will never understand this blasphemous catholic obsession with Mary.

[@redrocketbaby]

If Catholics would read the Bible like a person would read any other book, they would clearly see that it's talking about Israel.

[@tonyabrown7796]

I intend to have crowns in heaven. I am not the Queen of heaven.

[@dantheman909]

Revelation 12 doesnt say she is Queen of heaven. It says that out from her came THE KING. Only God is King there is no Queen. Worship of Mary is idolatry.