Big Animal Defense - 9mm+P VS .38 Special+P Underwood Hard Cast (9mm Fanboys are Gonna Hate Me)

Testing the Underwood hard cast ammunition in 9mm+P and .38 Special+P in 'full size' and 'short barrel' handguns. The 9mm+P is a 147 gr hard cast flat nose rated at 1,100 FPS and the .38 Special+P is a 158 gr hard cast SWC rated at 1,250 FPS. I do my 'big game' ballistic test with a layer of carpet, 6" of Clear Ballistics, 1/2" MDF and more Clear Ballistics. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221

[@h3HUg7Sp]

9mm +P 147 gr hard cast flat nose: "Look at me, I'm a big boy nine millimeter plush P"; .38 Special +P 158 gr hard cast SWC: "Bless your little heart".

[@ironmikehallowween]

Neither caliber is going away. I think the 38 special just has a unique balance that’s makes it so easy to shoot well. It can be loaded down, medium, or hot. Of course, the 357 allows even more versatility. And, therefore, is a wonderful field companion. The 9mm is also easy to shoot well and offers more capacity, but it always needs to be hot enough to cycle the slide. I like them both, and generally do carry a 9mm, but I would feel fine with a 38 revolver in most circumstances.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

Agreed. I carry 9x19 all fall and winter (Belt and jacket weather) and 380 bocket auto loader all summer, but in spring I have my 357 loaded with hot hard cast lead here in Black bear country, and my wife has her 38 snub with 158 grain +p Hard cast lead (both Buffalo Bore) Nothing beats revolvers for ammo versatility and reliability,

[@king.novice0ne156]

I'm not walking around my crime infested city with a revolver of any type😂😂😂 most of these foos have 9mm and 40s with extended mags you pull out a wheel gun they'll laughat you before they air you out , would you walk around chicago with a 38 revolver?? Or the Bronx 😂

[@mikelivingston6157]

I don’t comment much on your videos but I’m becoming more and more of a fan. I like how you try to be honest and you have a variety of firearms you test with including affordable ones for those who need to know the cheapies can save your life if that’s what you can afford

[@GunSam]

Thank you

[@davidca96]

What I like about both calibers is you can really push the pressure boundaries and get some impressive energy/performance. My favorite cartridge is 9mm NATO, but I also love 38 special and would feel comfortable carrying either caliber to protect myself.

[@randalljeffs7272]

Bear defense. The perennial “what if” subject. If a bear or some other predator actually tries to eat you, there’s a decent chance you’ll be grappling with it. Grappling with a slide operated pistol is a good recipe for jams and malfunctions. Revolver is the way to go for deep woods defense.

[@terrywadsworth5645]

I'd also have a fixed bladed knife with 6 to 10 in .drop point or Bowie. The theory being that when I go "Winchester "and/or go hand to claw with the big eater,I would go"Tarzan(Johnny Wisemiller style)"until it's been decided whether or not I've become a big meal for the big eater Woods Tip:Trail Runners and Mountain Bikers are a menu favorite. Hike the trails. Don't haul butt on the trails.

[@BUZZKILLJRJR]

​@@terrywadsworth5645 💯, I carry 38 special + p for everything I love how accurate it is. And I made a huge Bowie knife that I carry with me as well just under 8in only because I had to redesign the tip to put the top swedge different mines very sharp for a swedge. Bear mace as well. In all honesty and every case that I've seen and heard of bear mace actually works better than a firearm if you can afford it. And as long as you get a good shot on it with that juice. We have grizzly and cougars around here quite frequently. With any pistol I'd feel a lot safer with my 12-gauge that's for hahaha 🤣 but you work with what you got right.

[@Nono-rh4lr]

Yes but revolvers fail more when dirty just don’t let lots of mud / snow / grit get in that action.

[@Stroke2Handed]

I don't usually comment on here, but I just wanted to say that I love the consistency of your video releases. Been watching your videos since the ".38spl is the best Handgun round." Seems like a long time..

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I made that like 6 years ago. Was never supposed to get popular.

[@Me2Lancer]

Thanks for sharing, Sam. This is some of the best performance I've seen from 38 Special rounds.

[@mkshffr4936]

Buffalo Bore makes some really nice loads too.

[@MrShysterme]

they are loaded super hot.....i don't know if i'd shoot them out of a light revolver chambered only for 38 special (like the Ruger LCR)....if you are shooting them in a 357 magnum then it probably doesn't matter.....there remind me of the super hot 45 Colts that can only be shot in modern revolvers and are as powerful as a 44 mag

[@Fudmottin]

LSWC will take down a dangerous barn pigeon with ease. Drops them on the spot. And now that you can easily get them with that fancy tech red coating, leading isn't so annoying anymore. My favorite cartridge is the 38Spl by far. I know it's not as powerful as the 357 Magnum. But since you can shoot it from a 357 Magnum, you can load 38Spl hotter than SAAMI or CIP standards safely. At least safely if you don't put it into an older 38Spl with no +P rating. My general feelings on the 9x19mm cartridge is that it is well optimized for its original intended task. Modern bullets, for the most part, seem to perform quite well at the typical velocity you get from 9mm. While I choose to carry the "obsolete" five shot J-Frame type revolver, I wouldn't attempt to talk anyone out of carrying a modern 9mm pistol.

[@danoneill2846]

they both look good

[@stephenciavarri7165]

I'm addicted to watching You Tube ballistics testing videos. Been watching for over a decade when I first came across TNOutdoors9 and others. For the last year or so I've picked up on YOUR videos in that regard...AND IMHO you do it BEST. There is never a doubt in my mind over what to expect from any ammunition I've ever been curious about. In fact, I base my final decisions on what to carry (for woods, urban, rural, home) self defense from 2-4 legged potential threats on YOUR testing results/data. THANK you for informing the shooting public. JOB WELL DONE.

[@Bob.W.]

I miss tnoutdoors9. He doesn't post much anymore.

[@user-bm9ew5ed4l]

Great content. Thank you for your work on this. This is exactly what I was looking for!

[@pecosjane]

Interesting results. Thank you. I was testing different ammo in a 3 inch Model 60 yesterday: Underwood 150 grain Wadcutters gave me the best group.

[@terrywisham9228]

Been waiting on some good hard cast stuff thanks man very cool

[@GunSam]

I filmed the .44 Mag and .45 Super Underwood hard cast this day as well.

[@The_Hi_Life]

That’s 1 helluva 38 load there! Very Impressive!👏

[@frankhinkle5772]

Thanks for this test. I sometimes carry .38 Spl JSP due to a cayote problem.

[@GunSam]

I am not a coyote expert, but I would imagine some sort of JHP with a ballistic tip to cut through the fur would be better. Not that JSP wouldn't do a good job, I just think something like a Critical Defense might do better.

[@frankhinkle5772]

@@GunSam I carry he JSP because it was all I could find. JSP .357 Magnum seems to be a very popular hunting cartridge.

[@SuspiciousGanymede]

Out of all the carry calibers I'd feel most comfortable with a .40SW if I was up against something large. A regular 180gr FMJ penetrates more than the hard cast 9mm or .38spl for a lot less money. 40 and 10mm FMJ penetrates about the same but the 10mm flattens the projectile out.

[@thorshammer5134]

10mm is the way to go. A properly loaded hardcast 10mm has WAY more power than the 40 s&w. More along the lines of 41 magnum territory. I use my m&p 10mm in bear country or hunting.

[@SuspiciousGanymede]

@@thorshammer5134 you have to tune 10mm semi auto handguns to shoot full power ammunition without damaging the firearm or causing malfunctions. A 10mm revolver would technically be the answer but you lose capacity and gain weight.. The 4.5" m&p 10mm was known for choking on underwood ammo because it was undersprung. Maybe S&W has addressed that issue in the newer production handguns. The full size did not have that problem. I have a 10mm 1911, I use it for long range competition silhouette but not for woods carry because i often fail to disengage the grip safety under stress.

[@thorshammer5134]

@@SuspiciousGanymede I have a latter production serial number. Never had any issue. I do have springer precision mag springs and a stainless steel guide rod with 22lb recoil spring set up on standby. Just in case I had issues. The original 2.0s just had issues from being undersprung. I think S&W quickly corrected the issues. I go back and forth on revolver vs semi auto for woods. The speed with which you can draw, fire, and keep putting rounds on target with the semi auto, especially with a red dot made me lean that way. I also carry a 8 inch sturdy fixed blade in case something got on top of me. Not that that’s as good as a pistol. But there’s pros and cons to everything. I’d still be comfortable with the 40 s&w most places. But when you get around big brown bear, Alaska, Canada, etc I want more than .40.

[@davidlee8551]

Thank you for the work.

[@GeographyCzar]

Right on! I just got a new box of that 38 in the new, darker coating as well. Haven't had a reason to test it yet. Thanks, Gun Sam! Excellent comparison.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. I think we both tested this round in the past too. Just the fun bag of tricks ammo to pull out

[@kellyheath6293]

Another well done informative video. Thanks for the info

[@dcidci1012]

Great video, Thank you Sam. Double/Single action Revolvers are leaps & bounds more reliable than Semi Auto, if you take aim at that Grizzly charging you at 50 yards, he may at 28 MPH be at 25 yards when you pull the trigger, Yes Hands Down I choose the 38+P.

[@somebloke13]

That's some .38 Special!

[@danoneill2846]

they had an add for a coked up bear movie ... better bring more bear bullets !!

[@misterfister7262]

Hahaha I watched the ad right before this video too.. youtube knows how to advertise

[@DanTheWolfman]

Lol saw it before Violent Night the other day and funny because I talk about 10mm being good FOR meth bears in Anchorage that eat methheads

[@bobcatforever3485]

Another good and interesting video. As always, nice shooting. Thanks for sharing. Take care.

[@GunSam]

Thank you, take care

[@Nutty.357]

This is why I bought a 6" 357 M66 :D but I must say this particular 38spcl round surprised me! I dont think this is typical of most 38 rounds but this underwood is pretty fire! 🔥

[@scottphipps3577]

This 38 special seems suspiciously close to the performance of a factory 357 mag loading... And I have heard from older shooters that they don't usually load the 357 mag as hot as they used to, so this makes sense to me. Then you look at buffalo bore's 357 mag loading (maybe Underwood also) and it looks suspiciously like 44 mag energy. Are most ammo manufacturers holding out on us?

[@thorshammer5134]

@@scottphipps3577yes they are. I buy all my self defense/hunting pistol ammo from underwood. I have about 20 boxes of these 38s as well as some of their wad cutters and semi wad cutters. These hit very hard even out of my s&w 442 with the 1.8 inch barrel. Without a doubt it would go through a black bears head. Comfortable with it for light trail hiking or edc. Around brown bears or camping, hunting, long hikes etc I carry my m&p 2.0 10mm. Of course also with underwood hardcasts.

[@Me2Lancer]

I frequently carry 'hot' 38 Special rounds in my .357 magnum handguns. It strikes a good balance for personal defense.

[@bryangrote8781]

Agree with you on potential of .38Spl. One of the most versatile rounds out there. Wish it was easier to find higher performance factory loads though. It seems all the attention goes to 9mm anymore and others are comparatively neglected, especially revolver rounds.

[@mokgable]

We just started getting 38 special in our area but you are right. It was all 9mm for a while

[@noahmercy-mann4323]

Those 38s are STOUT...right on par with the old 38/44 loads. For those unfamiliar with those, they were hot 38 Special loads developed in the early 1930s to drive conical, metal clad bullets to high velocity in order to penetrate the thick automobile bodies of the time. They were used in large frame revolvers that normally housed bigger cartridges (hence the 38/44 designation). The introduction of the 357 Magnum a couple years later made them obsolete, and companies stopped producing the ammo shortly after, since there were some issues with people putting them in their small-frame 38s and shaking them apart or blowing them up.

[@GunSam]

I used to be really involved in the studies of all of that stuff lol. Like how they took the larger frame .44 Special revolver and put the .38 caliber revolver and barrel on it to handle the power.

[@podsmpsg1]

For animals like Wolves, Coyotes or Mountain Lions, 9mm and .38 Special would be good. I have some 130 grain and 132 grain .38 Special FMJ.

[@shanepitzer4126]

They say the big meplat pushes tissue away at 90 degrees, creating less side friction on the bullet. So it penetrates very well. Great test , thanks for sharing!

[@bdogjr7779]

Awesome GS《☆》👍If I find myself in a Bears playground I'd probably have my 4" 7 shot Taurus Tracker with me. 158 gr is my favorite in 357 Magnum but the Underwood 38+P is performing very well here🖖😎☮

[@glenmo1]

Thanks for the video Sam.. my belief is I would go with a revolver. You did have a misfire with the 9mm so then you have to clear the jam by then the beer would be on top of you... Most bear attacks the bear comes charging out of the woods or from behind the bushes you're lucky if you get off one or two or maybe three rounds so the revolver has plenty of capacity.. same thing 44 magnum versus 10 mm I'd go with the outstanding 44 Magnum six shots you're lucky if you get two or three rounds off before the bears on top of you I'd rather have it 44 magnum over 10 m.m

[@mkshffr4936]

And you will probably need that beer. 😉😂😇

[@jfowler7604]

Great job as always. It's very interesting to see your penetration tests. Those are the bullets that I load and would carry in my .38 & 9mm guns. I use comparable bbl. lengths and find that Underwood (or BB) 9mm velocities are reachable in my 3" Glock and 4" CZ. As usual, I chicken out out before getting very close to those premium ammo velocities in my Taurus 856. I do carry my G26 w/15rd in the woods. If I were to carry the CZ, I'd normally opt for G23 w/4.5" KKM instead. 180/HCFP @ 1100+ is very doable in the .40. Problem is, in Cali, I can't easily get UW or BB in .40 so I opt for the 9's b/c I can get factory 147 H.C. here occasionally.

[@joemorganeatmyshortschannel]

Decent performance

[@dentalnovember]

The 9 mm failure to fire at 2:24 was the reason I prefer the .38 revolver. The extra capacity is worthless if you do not have time to clear the misfire before you get mauled.

[@nd4spdbh]

Was going to say the same!

[@GunSam]

I heard some story about a guy and friend in bear country, this one guy had a Glock 20, but in his bag like 50 feet away. The bear kills him, so the untrained friend runs and grabs the pistol, but with no experience he was not able to make it work, so the bear killed him too. The story had to be pieced together as the witnesses were dead but the story is pretty clear what happened when the gun was never fired and by the friend. Wouldn't matter who you are, if that Glock was something different like my S&W model 69 in .44 Mag, shots would have at least been fired. Whether he could hit and stop it is another story, but it's better than no chance at all.

[@dentalnovember]

That’s a tragedy. Lesson is, keep your gun by your side or on your person, and make sure everyone knows how to properly operate the chosen firearm. Thanks for sharing.

[@redneck400m3]

Thats why i prefer a revolver. 6 reliable shots is better then 15 that may or may not go bang

[@FoulPet]

​@@redneck400m3 any round may or may not go bang. Being in a revolver does nothing to change that.

[@heathhalfhill6867]

Both are good for self defense but I believe it comes down to barrel length, ammo, and shot placement ultimately. Great comparison video. Nicely done. Thank you.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Your voice is sounding better, good to hear it. Thanks for the quality work you do for firearms owners. In my opinion, there's not much better style bullet for damage+penetration in revolvers, than the Keith-style hard cast. Wish more companies would load a genuine Keith style bullet, not some SWC knock off, as good as many SWC designs are. I was digging around online for casting companies selling casting molds, and found genuine Keith style bullets in .313, .376, .411, .430, and .454, and some of these calibers multiple weights. If I was living in the country and had some space and some land, I'd probably be casting.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching. I can almost talk normal today. I will probably confuse people though as I do have more stuff recorded where I can barely talk and I will probably release it after different more recent videos I have filmed

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@GunSam Hahaha! "You mean to TELL ME..... you built a TIME MACHINE?!!"

[@adamsaylor7427]

Considering 10mm after finding big cat tracks at my house on Sunday

[@magnum_0710]

I think the Underwood 38+p will be my woods load for my 357 snub...thanks Sam!

[@charlesphillips5906]

Thanks for short barrels!

[@l.a.3887]

I carry ether one on the street if I had to carry one of those in the woods it would be 38 special good video thanks 👍 grate job

[@BUZZKILLJRJR]

I'm glad you did this because I had an argument with a guy over 38 vs 9mm and what I was trying to explain is, with + p rounds in a 38 special, you get lower-end 357 mag, penetration AKA ballistic performance better then 9mm +p That's all I was saying. And he would not accept that 38 was more powerful with better rounds of 38 and a +p rated frame. I'm not saying a 38 special is better than a 9 mm just for certain applications it's more than sufficient with the proper ammo.

[@mikeburgan7675]

Nice Sam

[@thebluesrockers]

would love to see you compare Underwood Vs Buffalo Bore..

[@reelfishing002]

When it comes to “big animals “ , I guess it depends on where you live , some area may have coyote , wolves , cougar , black bears or even grizzly , then there’s the odd ball moose attack , so some of these targets a 9mm is plenty , but for others a 9mm is way under power . Heck I would love a 50 cal desert eagle but in a pcc configuration But still a interesting video

[@davemiller6055]

Hunters skinning out black bear sometimes find 9mm rounds stuck in the fat layer. A wonder 9 is for the city.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

@@davemiller6055 For the most part, yes. I think the sideways gun holding 'animals' are taken out easily enough with almost any handgun round when wielded by someone who knows the business end.

[@rob.3575]

That's some mighty impressive .38spl. Here in north Alabama there really isn't a great deal of threats from large predators, there hasn't been a cougar killed in this state in over 50 years and you only get the occasional black bear sighting. If anything you might run into a rabid coyote or feral pig which either of these would do fine. I'm actually more concerned about packs of dogs, there was a woman killed here this year by a pack that weren't even wild. Thats one time I'd definitely rather have the capacity of a full size 9mm.

[@GunSam]

Pretty similar here in lower MI. I have never seen a black bear, but in our county there's like 2-3 sightings a year, there's reported cougar sightings at the local bars. Well, actual ones too very rarely as some genius had the idea to let some go here.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

@@GunSam haha. Love the local bar cougar comment. Seems like a common thing across the divide.

[@redneck400m3]

​​@@GunSam Since youre in lower MI, as am i, do you think a .38 snub with these rounds would be sufficent as a last ditch effort against a black bear? Im not talking plinking one off at 50 yards....more like "oh shit its on me" type stuff

[@crusiethmaximuss]

Wowzers, that .38spl=P is like an old school FBI cartridge... I like 'em both, but am more interested in that classic performin' .38spl+P prior to all the watered-down loads we find now... I have some G2 Research TELOS .38spl+P which performs like that, but can't find anymore so I keep it for CCW reserve only.

[@LionquestFitness]

Good comparison, but stupid comments like .38 is trash? We in the gun community out to stick together a lot better than that.

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I still deal with silly comments to this day, obviously a younger crowd as I get laughed at with comments like ".38 Special, if it's so good why has no police or military used it ever?😂".

[@lookythat2]

That .38 +P (158 gr @1200) is a performance level equal to what .357 Magnum 158 gr factory loads used to be. I'd say a hot +P+. I know Skeeter Skelton and others cooked up a handload giving similar velocities, but personally I'd be pretty wary of using that in any of my .38 Special guns (and I have a couple of modern, steel K-frames). No surprise that kind of performance bested the 9mm.

[@josephmarino3045]

Elmer Keith believed and Randy Garrett believes in heavy for caliber bullets. From what I remember Elmer Keith designed the first semi- wadcutter for better penetration on large animals Randy Garrett has the hammerheads which are heavy for caliber large Meplat. Showing what a properly loaded revolver cartridge can actually do on game animals. Both Hollow and soft point revolver cartridges are not meant for deep penetration. They're meant for expansion add energy transfer. Ron Spooner interviewed a bear guide who had to kill a brown bear with 9 mm Underwood cartridges Heavy for caliber and large meplat. One of the bullets almost completely traversed the bear. 4 shot kill. Skeeter Skelton used to load 38 special cartridges with 158 grain hard cast Bullets .38156 Lyman???crimped one extra groove higher in the case. Looking like a 38 special extra long loading. He was getting about 1200 ft per second. Somebody else loading 38 special to the max. The cartridge is no slouch if loaded properly.

[@mkshffr4936]

I am becoming more and more convinced that for the one gun guy a 4" 357 is one of the top choices. With the right loads you can hunt small or large game, defend yourself from most any critter you are likely to encounter and have loads of plinking fun.

[@GunSam]

It's a decent choice. When someone starts talking capacity, butt in and cut them off by showing that N frame 8 shot one lol

[@DanTheWolfman]

.40/10mm FMJ (Flat Point) for animals will be just fine. Flat Meplate better though bones and no skull deflection that the Typical ogive of .45/9mm fmj might have vs Bear skull etc.

[@dannysees]

My choice also. Only boutique heavy for caliber rounds in others do as well. Usually 2-3x the expense, more recoil, more weight, and less capacity to do so.

[@GunSam]

I have seen that one video years ago where a guy uses a .40 to drop a moose from his snowmobile in Maine. Don't know the ammo used but .40 seems to be the highest penetrating rounds I ever test.

[@10bears]

Great video just curious did you notice the difference between the hard cast 9 mm plus p? The black cherry has an overall length that is shorter than the previous red-coated hardcast it also has a wider nose I guess that will keep it from tumbling who knows any thoughts?

[@crankygunreviews]

once again .38 special, very intriguing! Have you ever done Gel tests with Berry's plated target hollowpoint? I have been reloading it, and I wonder how it works in gel - no idea if it will expand at all, or as I have read it may work as a semi wadcutter because it doesn't have slits to help it expand...

[@GunSam]

I haven't gel tested them, but I did reload some in 2016 and got a squib with one lol. Unlikely the bullet's fault, but I still remember it how it was nearly out the muzzle but not quite. I had to pound it out with a dowel and hammer and stupid me didn't take off the cylinder on an aluminum ally J-frame so the point where the crane attaches to the frame was all dinged up just from the gun bouncing up and down with the cylinder open. I highly doubt they would expand or do well in gel unless they were pushed really fast.

[@alanlerner2354]

Agree. The, I will always be a wheel gun fan. My G3X has its place. Revolvers are just more fun.

[@dannysees]

Not related to these but Underwood is loading the 9mm Barnes Tac-XP round now. Would love to see how the +p does in your protocol since Barnes house loadings were always anemic. The .38 Special here seems like the load old timers used around the birth of the 357 mag. They wrote a lot about all the game taken with it.

[@876mpr]

Say what you will, but I’ll always take the round that does more damage each in a platform I shoot better. The narrow meplats on those 9mm’s just don’t do much damage or penetrate straightly.

[@k_enn]

More weight at higher velocity -- physics pretty much dictates the penetration result which is the key factor in big animal defense.

[@Master-AGN]

Yes, good point! 50 yards is 3 seconds away for a bear. Considering, bears can run at about 55 km an hour (13.5m/s about 15 yards per second) 45 yards in 3 seconds. Human reaction time is about 1 second. To be on the generous side, how many rounds can you get off in 2 1/2 seconds is the question you have to ask yourself.

[@Master-AGN]

And if you’ve got a auto. Would that hard primer strike be the difference between life and death. Maybe the better choice is a .44 Spl+P

[@GunSam]

@@Master-AGN Either in the woods or on the street I have always had the backwards opinion of revolver primary, auto secondary. You always see these guys, auto primary, J-frame on the ankle setups. But to me, makes more sense to have a 4" revolver in the woods in .38, 357 Mag or .44 Mag and a pocket size 9mm if that don't work, or on the street a pocket revolver 2" barrel as primary, then like my LCP in the back pocket (empty chamber so I can carry it anywhere) so if my 6 for sure isn't enough, by that time I could probably be to cover and pull out the auto, sling some rounds while I reload the wheel gun. I don't know, that's getting really specific about a situation where probably nothing would happen that way, but you know the picture i'm trying to paint.

[@carlosmorris4510]

I think I have some of these; a strong hard cast .38 Special round from Underwood Ammo... Out in the woods I'll be dual wielding two revolvers, lol. 🤠💬 Yeehaw! 😄

[@bryangrote8781]

It looks like those 9mm bullets tumbled and the .38s stayed nose first, but hard to tell looking through the block. In your experience would you say that the closer you get to a semi-wadcutter or wadcutter nose profile in non-expanding bullets that they are any less likely to tumble and thus potentially penetrate more in a soft medium? Seems that is a frequent result from having watched a 2 or 3 yrs of your tests but I could be wrong.

[@prestonmonaghan499]

Now that's a 38 I would carry

[@thatoneguy454c]

Modern high quality .38 special is plenty powerful. Obviously grandmothers soft lead cowboy loads are not goong to do well against a bear, but a +p hard cast will put out some serious hurt.

[@genemcdonald1769]

I would love to see a 6 in .38 s&w demo

[@chrisgabbert658]

👍😊

[@jamespugh]

As of this I take the 38sp+p with Hardcast over 9mm. But I take 40s&w over both . In maybe a 38s&w sp with +p is back up.

[@balancedfordaylight1]

ANY chance for a test of the Winchester "active duty" M1152 9mm 115 grain FMJ flat nose as a "woods load" for the 9mm the box claims 1300 fps Id be interested to see how that stacks up against the buffalo bore and underwood hardcast 9mm ammo since it is cheaper and available at my local corporate big box stores

[@misterfister7262]

This. I love flat nose fmj.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Good enough for our Military to punch though Mags on a chest rig I am assuming I am sure it would be just fine. There is a chance Sam could test it if he wants. There is a board test by TNoutdoors, and there is ballistics tests by others. Flat Meplates like this for .40 fmg are better through bones and skulls

[@balancedfordaylight1]

@@DanTheWolfman .40 is def better But many people don't own a .40 weather of the 10mm or 40S&W variety and my main interest in the Winchester ammo is its availability and price, though if I recall I think in TN outdoors test the regular round nose 9mm NATO round went through more boards I'm curious to see the performance in gel with the MDF in front.

[@davemiller6055]

I live in the North. We have Grizzly bear and large black bear. No .38 special or .40 caliber round is sufficient for animals of this size. .357 mag might work for the smaller black bears but not the Griz. And animals only keep getting bigger as you go further North.

[@jamesc28]

Any chance you could revisit some of the 45 ammo you did with the water jugs now that you are using clear ballistic? Looking for 45 ammo that will expand since the tests you have done recently haven’t.

[@GunSam]

I plan on testing a lot of ammo in general that I have not gel tested. Recently I got the Federal Punch 230 gr and Sig V crown 230 gr to expand well.

[@pecosjane]

Question: Underwood light strike, FTF. Has that ever happened with a revolver or does in only occur - in your experience - in striker fired pistols? Do you know if Underwood uses the same primers in pistol ammo and revolver ammo?

[@GunSam]

I have had it happen in both. Probably could have happened in this test, but a Patreon member/subscriber sent me an oversized firing pin for this revolver so they get struck pretty hard.

[@GunSam]

I have no idea what Underwood uses for primers. I could swear they told me they used rifle primers in the past but I cannot confirm this.

[@thebluesrockers]

What 38 special ammo would be a good practice ammo, if you're going to be using a +P for self protection? +P can get quite expensive to be practicing with. Love your content. Peace..

[@GunSam]

Depends I suppose. Now there is Blazer 158 gr+P that might be good for practice. But personally, if I was carrying a 110 or 125+P I would practice with 158 gr FMJ if possible, not for long range or anything, but from your typical 7 yards it will impact about the same and the standard pressure FMJ or TMJ 158 gr will have a similar recoil to the lighter weight +P ammo.

[@thebluesrockers]

@@GunSam I'll be looking into some good practice ammo now. Thanks for your reply. I hope you and your family have a good holiday season. Peace..Joe

[@doublewayne1089]

great video I dont know why I havent caught your vids until now.....THUMBS UP

[@jeffreylocke8808]

That 38 Special +P hard cast load is better than I imagined it would be. The nose of a cast bullet affects penetration. If the nose gets smeared or damaged penetration goes down by comparison.

[@Nono-rh4lr]

Sam. Do you think a standard FMJ might deform after hard bone and then penetrate less compared to the Hard cast? So maybe the hard cast would hold shape better after a bone strike and allow further penetration after? Just a thought. And ya the 38 looked better for sure. I usually carry the 147 hard cast in my G45 but man I’m thinking a 3” 357 might’ve better. Minus the capacity.

[@GunSam]

I really don't know. That being said I have done FMJ tests with extra bone simulation and I don't recall seeing deformation.

[@Nono-rh4lr]

@@GunSamfrom your memory is the hard cast going any deeper? Would a 124 FMJ go just as deep? Just curious. Not allot of testing woods carry ammo.

[@iowa_lot_to_travel9471]

357 buffalo bore hard cast for the win!!!!

[@GunSam]

I have ran it before, but I don't recall it being in gel I tested it. I will have to again. I know it's the highest penetrating round that exists in handguns currently, beats .44 Mag and all of that. I recently made my gel shelf longer to accommodate more gel so I will have to retest it.

[@Johnny-jr2lq]

Big Sam what’s your thoughts on the current bills being purposed in Michigan. Do you believe they are going to pass I’m actually worried about the assault rifles ban. The registered range crap is also quite concerning.

[@biggunshandguns3687]

You keep showing that the. 38 is still special. In this test it clearly kicked some 9mm ass. Having 18rnds isn't going to help if you can't hit the target. You didn't again able to put out quality informative video. Thanks for all you do

[@GunSam]

Thank you

[@jasonsliger5430]

I have a.38 special and like it, however in the area that I live 9mm ammo is more readily available. Maybe I should get into reloading. Thanks!

[@cw2a]

Never could cotton to the 9mm and always knew the 38 was under rated. Ever see a 9mm Magnum? Its 38 spl Length!! 😂❤😂 The biggest diff comes from a 38 being fired from a vented barrel where the 9 isnt.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

My wife has our snub nose 38 Taurus as her carry, (and it is our bedside table gun) and I load it with Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P hard cast lead for her spring carry, here in Black Bear country. (I carry my 357 at that time, with 180 Buff Bore Hard cast) Have you ever compared Buffalo Bore hard cast in 38 snubs with Underwood, and others that cater to that need?

[@GunSam]

I don't think I specifically compared the two brands in .38 Special, Underwood is a tad more powerful but not by much. Now I would like to compare the 180 gr .357 Mag HC as the Underwood is like 200 ft lbs less than the BB version.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

@@GunSam TY. I would be very interested in that 357 test also. Sorry I can't send you any. I am old, poor, and have 18 rounds to my name of my BBs. But I watch your channel and subscribe/like religiously.

[@calabazamaligna997]

Sam ahora si que te suplico que pruebes una ronda de 357 magnum balas de 200 granos.

[@ogbobbye]

lol the true test would be on Cocaine Bear. funny that movie trailer came up on this video

[@kpg-uo1tm]

Can still hear that shit in your voice. Hope you are feeling better.

[@locksbog4270]

👍✌️😃🇺🇸

[@genebickley7942]

A revolver forces you to be a better shooter, because you have less rounds better make them count.

[@Larry-ds6ib]

People think any caliber is trash should take a shot without body armor and talk about that again

[@deltawhiskey1398]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a .38 handgun or cartridge...I just don't see the logic in buying one. A 357 that can shoot both would be the obvious choice.

[@AlekseySh1982]

They can if they want to make a powerfull .38 sp.:).

[@GunSam]

Yes. I have noticed with 147 gr 9mm+P this is about it for power, I may have gotten upper 400 FPE with 147+P+ before. Makes me curious what a lighter hard cast would do, and why it doesn't exist. A 115 or 124 gr could easily hit 500-550 FPE in a 5" barrel so it makes me curious. I think ultimately though, Underwood is focusing on short barrels as 115, 124 or 147 gr and I don't think that 3.2" barrel is gonna really ever exceed 400 FPE.

[@gregeconomeier1476]

Need same bullet profile for meaningful results. Fun shooting otherwise.

[@GunSam]

I don't agree. This is how they come loaded. Theoretical ideas that aren't really practical or available don't really have more meaning.

[@texasbeast239]

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, the lead bad guy took 12 shots of .38Spl +P and 9mm to put down. (The special agents weren't using hardcast. But the 20+ inches of penetration that these rounds achieved would not have been acceptable by the Bureau, either.)

[@louv4437]

The 38 beat that 9mm ass

[@bsmithhammer]

Maybe we have a different idea of "big animal defense," but I wouldn't choose either of those calibers for the big animals where I live.

[@somebloke13]

I've heard the cougars are pretty fierce where you live. Some of the big cats are savage as well! 🤣🤣

[@KevinSmith-os5yz]

I was thinking the same thing. Also, I would rather see non plus ammo more. I know people want to see their favorite pet load, but I prefer standard pressure, rather than pushing the upper limits. If you want more power just go up the food chain. My goto for woods carry is a 4 inch 44 mag loading with mild 700 ftlbs. 9mm is a city gun:)

[@bsmithhammer]

@@somebloke13 You've heard right. 😉

[@GunSam]

In that respect I do have a different idea. Been my opinion for a long time that bullet construction and energy matter more than said caliber.

[@somebloke13]

@@bsmithhammer Thinking of moving there! 😍😍

[@williamray3101]

18 rds.better than six

[@leadfarmer556]

Lol, ya right.

[@mkshffr4936]

Yet so many KZbin gunsperts will tell you that a .357 is just barely better than a sharp stick.

[@GunSam]

it's almost as powerful as a .380 ACP. But 9mm, oh 9mm! The 9mm is so much more than the .357 Mag. My favorite thing is when they admit .357 Sig is pretty powerful, but the same as 9mm+P+ "with the right ammo" and they have more capacity.

[@akmguyman762X39]

So Underwood loads great 38+p but loads mediocre 357, makes total sense🤦

[@GunSam]

Yeah I think the .357 and .38 158 ge is separated by only like 75 ft lbs

[@akmguyman762X39]

@@GunSam that's pretty ridiculous man. It would be nice if a company would load those Keith style bullets in hard cast for the 357, that would be a hell of a round.

[@carlosmorris4510]

@@akmguyman762X39 It would be awesome if Underwood Ammo would do that; I'm growing fond of these hard cast rounds as of late - no need for expansion, like with hollow points.

[@akmguyman762X39]

@@carlosmorris4510 definitely, especially for predator defense. Hard cast is the king of straight line penetration.

[@FoulPet]

9mm suxk so time for everyone to swap calibers again.

[@Tool-Meister]

My angry animal defense choices are clear. Revolver: 44 mag. Pistol: 10mm. Barrel length: The one I can easily clear the holster and quickly get a clear sight picture. I carried a 7.5”, .44 Rem. Mag. RedHawk for years. Only had to use it once. Mamma Moose w/yearling baby hauled ass with only one shot fired in the air, over their heads. She’d made it clear she was unhappy with the youngster between her and me… but the bark of the .44 trumped her protective mood as the youngster almost ran over her as he exited.

[@BDAILY365]

no 38spl for me. got rid of them long time ago!

[@nathanlambshead4778]

More for the rest of us.

[@philipfreeman72]

Do NOT shoot a bear with ANY 9mm , I killed a 200 lb bear with a 45 auto , I wont again.

[@scottroder5516]

I was walking my dog and ended up with a mama bear and 2 cubs got between us. I pulled out my LC9 and said a quick prayer that I would not have to use it. Thankfully mama bear got her cubs out the Apple tree they were climbing and left. My old Labrabeagle did not see them.

[@gladegoodrich2297]

A 9 or 38 would just piss off a bear!!! Glock model 20 sixteen shot 10 mm is a much better choice.

[@paulscountry456]

Dogs kill up to fifty in the US a year and maul thousands, by far the most dangerous animal and far more likely to encounter, recently a pack of Coyote killed a young woman in Canada, dogs like cougar are thin skinned and easy to dispatch, 38 would do fine on even big pits or chows, police shoot lots of dogs every year.And no I don't hate dogs you can see mine on my channel and it hunts, it works and has fun and warns when coyotes are prowling chickens or wild chukers we raise .

[@GunSam]

I have found that when a dog comes at you, if you start running at it, it stops lol. Start yelling come on, come here and they take off.

[@bigtrucklittlerv7969]

The .38 can be loaded to high pressures with heaver boollits