BJJ stand up did NOT come from wrestling (Tsunetane Oda's takedown approach) 小田常胤

[@DE-ew4vr]

Done BJJ for 15+ years and Judo for 3 years of college. I have done many wrestling classes in that time and even some sambo. I appreciate the break down but while its logical to find the origin for the takedowns detailed here as coming from judo, it seems more likely each academy has its own flavor based on its couch, team or students. Many BJJ students in the US wrestled at some time, either high school or middle school. Of course judo explored it but its use in BJJ doesnt mean it was carried down from Judo. En example, my instructor is a guard player and never showed takedowns. My students learn throws and a judo style posture from me. This is obviously from my time in judo. I was already a bjj purple belt when i started judo but found a love for stand up that has stuck with me and adapted it for bjj. Most bjj schools are open to taking things from other arts, i think this leads to techniques leaving and being reintroduced over and over. My journey being an example of that. Anyway, its all grappling and worth the attention. Good video.

[@lamesurfer1015]

You hit on a good point. There is no Kodokan for BJJ. Hence, there is no "BJJ Canon" the way there is in Judo. Some Gracie schools have a set curriculum, but I'd argue thats only 1/5 to 1/10 of the schools out there, nowadays. 10th Planet also has its own curriculum that is quite distinct. However, regardless of where I go in the world, if I learn Judo I'm learning the Gokyo and osaekomi, shime waza, and kanetsu waza. I can't say the same about BJJ. I'm learning whatever the instructor is good at (or recently watch a BJJ Fanatics video on).

[@PeterJames143]

Exactly

[@huntermosely7420]

@Whammer79 that's a bit cheeky and not correct

[@Sei1989]

It's crazy how much different the stand up portion of the takedown skills compares to the 90s to now. It looks like a totally different sport. 90s looks like Kosen Judo players with a crappy double and a single. Modern BJJ looks like wrestlers competing in gis that allows no pins

[@dmills5755]

I love Judo more and more as I learn about martial arts and wish I chose Judo over karate as a kid.

[@connorperrett9559]

Traditional BJJ stand up certainly didn't come from wrestling, of course, but my BJJ coach was a Catch wrestler, and one of my current judo teachers was a high school wrestler, and both incorporate wrestling techniques into their game and their teaching. I've always wanted to learn straight up wrestling, but it's nearly impossible as an adult, so I'm grateful there's been some crossover to add wrestling techniques to my game.

[@frankiegodinez8864]

Great video again. I think it’s as important to know the history of your martial art as it is to know the technique. Thanks for everything you do Chadi! Greetings from Canada.

[@QuantumMechanic_88]

It's important to know when an actual martial art morphed into a sport.

[@frankiegodinez8864]

@@QuantumMechanic_88 Also keep in mind, that a sport can also be a martial art. It important to know that for example, Judo, while mostly practiced for competition, it is still deep rooted and most martial traditions are kept. Also, even though it is a sport, it can still be used for self sédense in certain instances.

[@Taekwon-Brando]

Hey Chadi i think I've told you that I train BJJ/Judo like a million times now but as a jiu jitsu and judo competitor this video makes me extremely happy. I use alot of judo grip fighting to setup things like ankle and knee picks/double and single legs

[@tjl4688]

Wrestling was and is an influence on BJJ standup. It's mostly from Judo, but even Rickson has been acknowledged as a wrestling champion. The Gracie Academy openly teaches mostly wrestling-style takedowns over most Judo takedowns.

[@Shadowrulzalways]

That’s only because Judo banned leg grabs. That’s why. If that wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t be relying on wrestling as Judo’s leg grabs and takedowns are no different

[@robbybee70]

this may be the case from back in the day but today, in the US at least you are far more likely to find a BJJ person with a Wrestling background then a Judo one

[@rustyshackleford735]

To say luta Livre didn't have its own level of influence on bjj would if course be incorrect and you've said as much. I think the idea here is not to discredit wrestling's influence on bjj, but to point out that wrestling wasn't necessary for those moves to be part of bjj. Modern American bjj like we practice at Pedigo's daisy fresh team has a ton of cross pollination with wrestling.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

I mean, you're right! But still, most techniques were already in Judo, i'm almost sure that Mitsuyo Maeda didn't get to teach them everything, that's probably they started think that it was missing stuff, like the Americana which already was in Judo (Ude Garami)

[@haga6039]

I don't know. I am brazilian and I like to research about our martial arts and martial arts in general. The way I see neither the claims make sense. See, as many things in brazilian culture bjj was not hermetic, closed and canonized. Specially in its development. Yes, it was a little more hermetic since it has lineages that developed it, but since it's beggining it aways receveid influences from others fighting styles and vice versa. For example, the double leg in bjj in brazil it was aways called "baiana" (means something like "from Bahia" - a state in Brazil, from where today Capoeira mostly comes from) the same name we call it in capoeira. There are elements of capoeira in bjj and elements of bjj in capoeira. In the state of Para, where the Gracies come from, there is a style of Folk wrestling called "Luta Marajoara", that has doubles, singles and all kinds of takedowns. In the neighbouring state, Maranhao, we had "Tarraca", another style of Folk wrestling, that was one of the basis of the Capoeira. Most of the indigeonous fighting styles we find In Brasil are wrestling styles (like "Huka-Huka" and "Aipenkuit"). In the 50's, when the Gracies were alredy In Río de Janeiro, we find the "Luta Livre Esportiva", a style of wrestling that developed by its own from catch wrestling and would rival bjj in the following decades, since its very similar to a no gi bjj (that was not really a thing by its own back then). And also you have all the foreing fighting styles influencing Brazil since aways. You have portuguese "Jogo do Pau" and french "Savate" In capoeira. Judo and wrestling In BJJ. Plus Boxing, karate, and so on in everything. So trying to say "this part came from that" its kind like trying to say who invented the overhand punch.

[@Pablito003]

O francês aí acredita que tudo foi roubado do Judo, ele de verdade acredita que o Kosen Judo influenciou o BJJ, quando na verdade o Conde Koma já estava muitos anos fora do Japão quando o fenômeno do Kosen Judo tornou-se forte e rivalizando com o pessoal da Kodokan. O cara desconhece a extensa tradição de lutas que o Brasil tem e como Jiu Jitsu brasileiro foi absorvendo através dos embates e trocas de experiências nos confrontos. Ele deve acreditar que lá nos idos de 1910 em diante quando Koma estava por aqui ele tinha youtube e fazia live com os caras do Kosen Judo.

[@xaverdamien3986]

The grazies learned primarily from maeda a judoka but nowadays rarely give judo the credit it deserves. The point still stands that after a while bjj became as everything more then it originally was and a lot was implemented as you said from luta livre and capoeira but alot of it was already taught by maeda. Judo also incorporated catch wrestling and in the end it is stupid to only focus on one art but judo should still get more credit then it gets. I hope I didn't offend you because your comment was very insightfull

[@Pablito003]

@@xaverdamien3986 you, who are a little naive and clumsy, don't know the history of the struggle within Brazil. Judo is recognized and highly respected within the Jiu Jitsu community and many of the best received training that complemented their knowledge. In fact, there are some resentful people who don't take Jiu Jitsu seriously. I see one around here...

[@xaverdamien3986]

@@Pablito003 I do take brazilien jiujitsu very seriously but in my honest opinion it just isnt as important to focus on as many would like you to believe. An over specialization is critical. Learn your boxing, wrestling, judo first and then focus on more advanced stuff like bjj. Imo it is not necessary to get higher then purple belt in bjj for self defence and mma so why do it. But please enlighten me with your knowledge I am eager to learn more about what you wanted to focus onm

[@ArpMadore1]

Modern BJJ's stand up techniques have clearly been heavily influenced by Collegiate and freestyle wrestling Leg grabbing techniques have always been a part of Judo But these were never going to break into the mainstream It was an escape for newaza-based kosen players and those who couldn't compete in a straightforward manner The occasional use of such techniques might have been overlooked, but those who used them frequently were always scorned

[@ariasjiu-jitsu6029]

I have been following this channel and it is very good to see how it has been deciphered that BJJ is a subset of mainly Judo techniques, nothing new under the sun. In addition, many judo masters from very ancient times demonstrated the superiority of JuJutsu and later judo over other martial arts in real combat. again nothing new under the sun. I have also seen how in several videos it is mentioned that some techniques such as kata guruma come from European wrestling, which is not true, it is just ignorance of true and very old traditional jujutsu schools in Japan and their scrolls. Kata Guruma comes from Taki otoshi, which is to lift an opponent over our shoulders and let him fall in free fall, releasing him and withdrawing from below him so that he falls into the void. In this video you can see the Japanese teacher who jumps in the air and puts his opponent in his guard, makes him fall on his back and later mounts him. this is typical of another very old JuJutsu technique that is in the scrolls and is called Fubi. from where in addition you could also heel lock the opponent as a variant or henka of the technique. Our school is recording a hundred traditional self-defense techniques from the true scrolls that will show how many of the techniques used by the different Martial Arts are taken from techniques in the scrolls of traditional Japanese schools. In addition, many schools are teaching self-defense with fundamental errors and in a very basic way, which in a real case would not work on the street or at least that same technique would put the executor at risk against the opponent. They seem excellent when you see them, but with few technical foundations, which surprise an initiate but make it clear to an expert that they are poorly made. Let's remember that the techniques were developed for battlefields where the terrain conditions and number of people fighting were very adverse for a poorly executed technique without considering many aspects external to the technique itself. Today teachers are also praised who supposedly have revolutionized JiuJitsu or No Gi with leg locks, again on my channel I have uploaded as in 2003 to 2005 already in our schools we taught leg lock techniques that are typical of the traditional schools of jujutsu, and my Master always told us, when an opponent is strong standup , attack his legs and finish him off. On the other hand, I want to mention that JiuJitsu or JuJutsu is Japanese, not American, Indian, Brazilian, etc. Organizations are from different countries, but I haven't seen so far any techniques that have been invented outside of Japanese scrolls. It is true that the original JuJutsu has been influenced by other nations, but as we know it today and how it was developed, structured and passed through generations in Japan, it is a unique system typical of Japan. Mr. Chadi, I congratulate you for your excellent work and I hope you continue on this path of clarifying the true history of JuJutsu and Judo and other modern variants that have not invented anything and that take advantage of some baseless stories. Excuse my English, because I speak Spanish. Best regards... Máximo Arias 5°Dan JiuJitsu .

[@Ivuspp]

Hey, Chadi, great video as always. Thanks for this. As a matter of fact, two days ago, I was changing comments here on youtube regarding other influences of BJJ. I was defending the angle "BJJ = Basically Just Judo" (though I know it´s not a simple topic, even more so if you live in Brazil, like me) and then this guy came saying that it's not Judo that doesn't get the credits (historical justice), but rather our Brazilian "Luta Livre" (by Mestre Tatu), which, according to him, was even more essential to BJJ than Kodokan Judo and is rarely mentioned. I'd love to hear your take on this, I'm a huge fan of your content. Cheers from Brazil!

[@daxmafesi]

Another great video also in the beginning you see Oda doing something similar to what is now referred to as Octopus guard which was also done in Catch Wrestling to avoid the pins! Old school grappling rules lol!

[@shadowfighter6445]

Always love the informations. Thank you for sharing ☺️.

[@stefanschleps8758]

Despite those insecure in their own truth, there is nothing new under the sun. Thanks Chadi.

[@shrimuyopa8117]

Yup and that's for true Kano Jigoro too, he didn't do anything new under the sun either. So I am not going to use Japanese names or give Kano credit for poop. Thanks!

[@djignatin4043]

I did not know kosen judo focused on ground fighting. That is good to know. Thank you Chadi.

[@solomio2518]

The same way Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris made “stand-up” fighting popular in America late 60’s and early 70’s, I wish Judo could be “reborn”! I’m in my early 50’s and remember when Judo was the “preferred” Martial art taught to the military. I was introduced to it in San Diego, Ca as a child because of the abundance of training in the art going on . Today, BJJ has been the most popular due in large part of course to the legendary, Gracie Family. To me BOTH arts a dev devastatingly effective !!

[@thedopesickshow]

Absolutely! I’m a brown belt in judo and blue in bjj. Chuck Norris has a HILARIOUS video where Helio Gracie asked Chuck to punch him and before he could do so Helio choked him COMPLETELY unconscious! Worth looking up, check it out!

[@solomio2518]

@@thedopesickshow L O L! I definitely will as soon as I pull over! (I’m texting you by hands-free text right now)…Thanks for the info

[@thedopesickshow]

@@solomio2518 absolutely! And also wanted to give a story about basic grappling that saved me. I’m a judo brown belt and jiu jitsu blue belt today, it’s kept me off heroin since April 9th 2010. Before judo/bjj I did 5 years in federal prison for drug related charges. I trained kenpo karate open to close for 2 years while on bond to prepare, one day a week we did basic grappling. I believe in grappling because of how my very basic level worked in a video on my channel “PRISON FIGHTS I Fought A Prison Monster”. It was a fight I had with a man who boxed Butterbean in a tough man boxing match. He lost to Butterbean, bud didn’t get knocked out. Fighting a guy Butterbean couldn’t knock out was intimidating to say the least. If it sounds like something you might be interested in, check it out! If not that’s okay too! Martial arts have changed my life, I do work with at risk youth and addicts that I try to get to come train at our club. It’s changed my life and I believe it can change theirs too!

[@solomio2518]

Ha!!! Just watched both versions of it !! kzbin.info/www/bejne/mImsZaqwmceIl68

[@thedopesickshow]

Awesome! I knew you’d appreciate the awesomeness of that story! In conversation with friends that don’t train I told them a senior citizen Gracie choked Chuck Norris out years ago. Of course they would say I was lying, then I’d pull up that video and they’d be blown away! Chuck is now a 3rd (maybe 4th by now, been a while since I checked) degree black belt under Jean Jacques Machado who’s also Eddie Bravo’s coach!

[@bundy4prez462]

Once again a great video. 👍

[@scarred10]

I didnt ever think bjj takedowns came from wrestljng,it was just judo that carlos learned and over time several gracies trained a bit of wrestling or luta livre so some taught that.Generally the takedowns in bjj are to use on untrained attackers that are punching you.

[@kingbyrd.1512]

The title alone really resonated with me. It irks me when wrestlers act as if everything came from them and BJJ itself has no stand up. BJJ inherited standup from Judo.

[@АлександрАлексей-т1ф]

Wrestling is first Olympic sport. It came way before judo

[@seetsamolapo5600]

Wrestling is still better

[@JudoTim]

@@seetsamolapo5600 The best martial art is the one that a person enjoys practicing, and for you that’s wrestling. Kodokan Judo teaches more than just self defense.

[@seetsamolapo5600]

​@@JudoTim I actually box kind sir. I mention the merits of wrestling trying to be as objective as can be and with all due humility. For somebody who wasted time in taekwondo, I cannot overstate the importance of training the right combat sport. I mean what would be the use of learning aikido if you intend to fight?

[@kingbyrd.1512]

@Whammer79 An assumption on your part. I know about that. Now what does that have to do with my post?

[@justinwallace269]

Educational as always, Chadi. Thank you!

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

YES!!! Someone finally said it BJJ really doesn't like to give Judo the thanks it deserves. They really did Judo wrong, claiming ti have invented stuff or to have gotten them form other sources And objectively, the way BJJ is trained is worse that the way Judo is. Even though Judo has the problem of no gi not being practiced often, it is still way better than most grappling arts, BJJ included. Judoka train so many takedowns, we have a move for every situation, and while other arts like wrestling and BJJ can do these techniques and they even train them sometimes, they just won't!! They sure love those single and double leg attacks, and also pulling guard, which is the only thing that gives me nightmares.

[@xaverdamien3986]

Agreed. It also heavily depends on the rulesets. Of course can a bjj player perform basic throws and takedowns but because the ruleset dont count them as highly and they both want to get to the ground either way it isnt nearly as important as in a sport where the whole concept is to do the most damage in every situation. Judo has advantages in standing and on the ground which oftentimes makes a judoka better equipped for self defence. This video showed again that judo is class

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@Kevin Geaslin untrue. Judo never claims to have invented things that they didn't. They also do not train in a way in which it will abominable to Jujutsu, while BJJ does start from the knees sometimes lol. And yes, yes Judo did get rid of strikes (even tho some dojos in Japan did keep them), but it was for two reasonable reasons: to make the art more "gentle" (as you will basically never start the attack yourself but only counter. This is untrue for competition and randori however) and because Jigoro Kano knew that grappling could be practiced at full powet without the students harming each other badly, while striking was another history. BJJ even changed it's name for branding, instead of Ju-Jutsu it is Jiu-Jitsu which is inacurate, while Judo only replaced the "Jutsu" with "Do" because it is a Budo of Jujutsu, nothing wrong with that. And it was even refered at as "Kano Jujutsu" at first.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@Kevin Geaslin btw, i didn't take what you said personal. I only wrote such long thing because i really feel like i need to defend Judo haha

[@xaverdamien3986]

@Kevin Geaslin the difference is that judo pushed so much more self defence aspects to traditional other jiujitsu arts. It explored things others never did and proved to be most effective of all. Still traditional self defence jiujitsu has a lot to offer and should be incorporated more into judo so that one can claim judo is complete. Focusing on atemiwaza and also wrestling would be a huge add on to tho

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

I'd say that BJJ and Luta Livre both were judo and catch wrestling hybrids. The difference being that BJJ had stronger judo influence, LL having stronger catch influence.

[@PeterJames143]

Your statements on this issue are way too absolute. I am not saying that judo does not have variations of the takedowns that bjj uses but you can see videos of bjj practitioners like marcelo garcia explicitly rejecting judo in favor of wrestling as a source of takedowns. While the gracies may have had access to instruction in many judo standup techniques they really didnt transmit that many. People after them who wanted to learn takedowns some looked to judo and some looked to wrestling. The reason judokas who switch to bjj including garcia himself and bernardo faria and many others like the ribeiro brothers are so dominant in competition is because relative to bjj people their standup is so much better so they get to play more from top position. I disagree with marcelo garcia on this issue as you can tell but having been to many bjj classes there are basically three takedowns in wide circulation. Double, single, and guard pull. Nobody has ever demonstrated uchimata for me in like five years of bjj. Seoi nage was demonstrated but not in a usable form. People teaching bjj are slightly more likely to have wrestling backgrpund than judo.

[@romansjermalonoks7533]

Great stuff

[@Chadi]

🙏🏻

[@rustyshackleford735]

If you look at the very early footage of fights and techniques by the Gracie's you'll see grip fighting and throws, not shots, there was an absolute historical cross pollination from wrestling into BJJ, that's not a guess it's a fact. It wouldn't have necessarily been needed, but it is what happened.

[@Chadi]

I don't know if you listened to the entire video but i do mention there's wrestling today and named a few elements, the title says "come from" the initial approach and concept of the stand up game when the ground is the goal has already been thought of.

[@dakotaroosa202]

@@Chadi Also want to add as a side note that in choque vol 3 it shows a photo of a much younger Helio Gracie studying Judo with kodokan professors Sumiyuki kotani and Chugo sato and it mentions that Helio had a diploma from that course, and not long after the self defense stuff became a part of Gracie jiu jitsu, but is literally the same stuff taught in kodokan Judo. Sorry it was little off subject. Haha

[@shrimuyopa8117]

@@Chadi Okay bjj's stand up didn't purely come from freestyle wrestling but it didn't purely come from Judo either. Can we all admit that the modern bjj style has a HEAVY influence from freestyle wrestling?

[@daniel-zh9nj6yn6y]

Ancient art from Europe and Africa shows a style similar to Greco Roman wrestling. Dropping onto your knee for a double leg takedown is safe only on a soft mat.

[@jackburton2653]

Perhaps the original BJJ stand up didnt come from western wrestling. But once BJJ became popular in the US, which has a very strong wrestling culture, western wrestling absolutely became a mainstay of BJJ stand up in the US. Ive trained in a few gyms here in the states, and each of them taught classic wrestling takedowns, concentrating on the single leg/double leg, snapdowns to front headlock, etc . Ive never been shown a single judo throw in any of the schools Ive trained in. In my main school, the coach is an ex judoka, and he teaches nothing but wrestling for standup. Of course, Ive only trained in the US, so this might be strictly a US BJJ cultural thing.

[@IpponQing]

Maybe it depends what part of US you’re in. Every school I’ve been to taught judo throws, by people who were never judoka. That bothers me because as a judoka, you shouldn’t be teaching anything unless you’re at least a brown belt. Wrestling is a bit easier to get the hang of, but still in my opinion, you should’ve been a decent wrestler to teach it to others.

[@AikidoApplied]

of course not. people will do all kinds of gymnastics to escape the obvious origins of bjj. the context of your video is bjj as it was birthed in Brasil - its basics - and not every permutation of it since it's late 90s spread to the US (I was in Rickson Gracie's dojo in LA off Sepulveda - for a few months 1996 before moving to Tokyo Feb 1997) as the internet has gained momentum and people watch videos to mix this with that and manifest various expressions of a kind of hybrid grappling. Keep up your interesting topics and thoughtful work. 🤛

[@felipemartinez1275]

BJJ: Basically Just Judo

[@fredazcarate4818]

Chadi thank you for clarifying the historical record. Your video presentation was enjoyable. I hope too see more soon. God bless your and your family!

[@Shadowrulzalways]

Japanese Jūjutsu has always had leg grabs for centuries.

[@PeterJames143]

Also morote gari is different from a double leg. The throw is done in a different way and all of the refinements that wrestlers have learned from doing double legs against resisting opponents are taught to beginner bjj people, like having a strong upright posture and where your head should be to avoid the guillotine and how to follow up to a strong position. The form of double leg that bjj players use is based on the no gi entries which require young flexible knees and athleticism, the base version of the morote gari involves using the gi to gain entry. Not to mention bjj professors teach how to do the entry in a wrestling way not a judo way, with the long lunge. Also the defenses against the wrestling double leg is taught, the sprawls and having one arm down to catch the person trying to attack with a double leg. It may be that the morote gari would be practiced differently by people who used it exclusively but today's bjj takedowns definitely come more from wrestling. I am certain these same observations apply to single legs. The kuchiki gaeshi and kibisu gaeshi entries make use of the gi to allow entry to the attack however single legs as taught by most bjj schools are basically even more useful in no gi than they are with gi. To be honest all this is to say that there is a vast opening for improvement of the existing bjj takedowns by making use of the judo versions. However, the current versions of most takedowns in practice in bjj schools come from wrestling not judo.

[@Randall_jitsu]

Great videos and I am a big fan. But I think that all grappling arts can trace their roots to indo-european roots (pre-Greek culture). The Indo-Europeans went on to settle the Indus valley where a strong grappling culture existed. And this people went further east.

[@elijahdeluna9187]

They probably avoided a lot of knee injuries by not so much using the big reaping and leg lifting throws. It totally makes sense.

[@Quach7]

Shift from the origin of the art. Japanese Jujitsu came from armed combat. Mobility is more important in armed combat. Stability is more important in unarmed combat. BJJ does not count a pin as a win because it forgot its roots in armed combat.

[@elijahdeluna9187]

@@Quach7 Thanks for answering a question no one asked.

[@Quach7]

@@elijahdeluna9187 Judo throws come from armed combat. Wrestling takedowns came from unarmed combat. BJJ forgot its root in armed combat.

[@Samperor]

It came from Kito ryu jujitsu

[@Pablito003]

The phenomenon of Kosen Judo is not associated with BJJ, not in the way you let on. Mitsuyo Maeda who was the guy who brought the knowledge of Judo/Jiu Jitsu from Japan, as well as his experiences in various challenges in his travels, was already many years outside Japan when the high school and technical staff (Kosen) were rivaling the Kodokan staff. In fact, in his memories Maeda wasn't a big fan of ne-waza in his training days, he ended up improving in the ground fight due to the fact that the work of pulling to save and work sweeps and submissions was more economical in terms of physical wear than trying to overthrow European and North American giants. The BJJ people specialize in techniques such as double leg and single leg as many practitioners over the years driven by vale tudo and MMA have preferred Wrestling for being more straight to the point and less complicated than the Judo throws that need more coordination and fine tuning. However the patriarchs of the Gracie family were very well versed in takedown techniques, Hélio Gracie is said to have had a great Hane Goshi.

[@xaverdamien3986]

Newaza was focused on from the beginning in judo. Jigoro kano didn't like it as much because he imo rightly believed that it is less self defence applicable but there where many jiujitsuka and judokas who practised it nonetheless more then the standup. Maeda was a notorious newaza player and taught the grazies what he believed to be the right way to fight in a ring. Not self defence but a ring and that is bjj it is over specialized on a one vs one match

[@Pablito003]

@@xaverdamien3986 please try to interpret it better... the house thanks you and I avoid giving pearls to the pigs.

[@xaverdamien3986]

@@Pablito003thank you for your kind reply I will try to better myself.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Hi Chadi. I'm wondering where do you think the idea of winning by osaekomi comes from? As far as I know, in old Jujutsu matches it was Submission, KO, or Referee's decision, and no winning via pins. Is it possible that it's a western influence?

[@stefanschleps8758]

Chadi may give you a different opinion. Mine is that this is derived from Samurai practice, and modified in the Meiji era by the Japanese themselves. All the best. Laoshr #60 Ching Yi Kung Fu Association

[@Stephen_Curtin]

@@stefanschleps8758pinning was definitely part of the Jujutsu from before Kano's time, no doubt about that, but AFAIK Kano was the one who introduced the idea of winning a competition with a pin.

[@maofas]

If a person is held in a pin long enough to get ippon, it is assumed you could have been ground and pounding them the entire time rather than simply pinning them.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

@@maofas True, but that has nothing to do with the question I'm asking. What I want to know is, was winning a match by pin something that was part of Pre Kodokan era Jujutsu, and if not, was Kano the person who introduced the idea? Then if Kano was the person who came up with the idea, did he think of it himself, or was he influenced by something else? This is what I'd love to know.

[@scarred10]

@@maofas thats incorrect,to pin you need to give up the ability to hit hard,its more likely that if you can pin someone,you can draw your knife and finish them

[@PaladinJackal]

Eh the judo leg grabs were never as well developed as Wrestlling. BJJ doesn't teach or train leg grabs the way Judo does. BJJ stand up is for sure mostly wrestling. Originally it was more Judo. Back when BJJ was only in brazil that is. Even then the gracies relied on the double leg a lot. So yeah BJJ standup is no way mostly Judo, Oda and other Judokas weren't really using wrestling in the same way BJJ guys do now.

[@BestWayKilla]

Modern BJJ stand-up is definitely more wrestling focused. The lack of the level change with the way a lot of judoka go for double-legs and ankle picks is a giveaway, a good sprawl will shut that down quickly. My instructor, who wrestled before he started BJJ, stresses the level change as the most important part of the shot, and we drill it frequently.

[@PaladinJackal]

@@BestWayKilla Exactly

[@lamesurfer1015]

To be fair, he does mention that modern BJJ takedowns are definitely more "wrestling based" here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/apCroZ6LeZWEjdU That said, Its rare to find the type of chain wrestling caliber of takedowns in BJJ as you do in Freestyle or Folkstyle (unless the BJJ dude was formerly a wrestler). The same goes for good Judo in BJJ (again, unless the BJJer was a judoka). Thus the instruction, kind of sucks in most gyms. I can't say I had great wrestling coaches, but the sheer amount of reps and clinics they put us through, combined with the focus on the standup made us better. We kind of "figured it out" in some cases. I agree with your point about Judo leg grabs never being as well developed as wrestling leg grabs. The gi and the priority to throw Ippon just makes it less of a focus.

[@scarred10]

Bjj uses the easiest takedowns to get on nongrapplers and those are bodylocks and double legs.

[@moefinesse9878]

U may be correct cause judo throws requires more time to learn. The objective of judo is for fluidity and there are far more arsenal of throws then wrestling.

[@tc47101]

rất hay 😄😃👍

[@davidtarantino152]

Is there any evidence of these takedowns in TJJ? Reason I ask is that when Kano was in the process of creating Judo 🥋 the two most famous and widespread sports in the world were Pro Boxing and legit Pro Wrestling. Isn’t it possible that he was aware of these sports?

[@ca1498]

It is known that Kano was looking at Western wrestling techniques. The story of kata guruma (fireman's carry) is well known--that Kano could not figure out how to take down a certain huge opponent no matter what he tried until he found the fireman's carry in a western wrestling book, took down the big guy with it, and immediately added it to the judo curriculum. But IMHO there are still a few key factors that made judo quite different from wrestling. The gi makes a huge difference in the ability to grip and control the opponent from a distance. And Kano and his students really loved to develop big, high-amplitude, beautiful to watch throws from upright posture as opposed to just effective takedowns. I believe Oda and maybe a few others, like Maeda, wanted to make judo 50% standing and 50% ground fighting, but Kano and the majority were all focused on the stand-up. And, luckily, Kano agreed to add ground fighting to Judo to give us a more complete combat sport and martial art, though on _average_ nowhere near the level of ground fighting that BJJ/MAA/submission grappling does. But, like Oda, there are well-known exceptions among judokas and schools who are really good on the ground.

[@DareToWonder]

Should we just call BJJ Ne-Waza instead? I mean.... it sort of what it is (with some modifications here and there)

[@lamesurfer1015]

That would be... reductive. It would also be unfair to what BJJ has become. Many, if not most of BJJ's techniques have at one point been done by past Judoka. However, given Judo's rules, they are not part of common practice today. You'd be hard pressed to find BJJ folks that don't know basic ashi-garami and heel hooks. These are techniques that are unthinkable to use in randori or shiai in most Judo dojos.

[@rangelo8908]

For me it's newaza since bjj is just a marketing name. All those fancy ashi garami, de la riva, shin on shin, berimbolo were all used by Judoka. Newaza is newaza. Don't fall into the Gracie/bjj cult mentality.

[@marlon1171]

For self defense on the street do you find judo useful as opposed to other styles?

[@williamsmith8790]

Obviously.

[@JaredB001]

All I’m going to say is where is the NoGi?

[@bruceparker6142]

So Oda used wrestling stand up and takedown.

[@rvfree1]

this is just sad

[@john146muaythai]

The true gospel is the good news of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, it is concerning who Christ is and what He did to save His elect only. The gospel includes the how and why, which can only be seen by faith. It is a message that declares how the eternal Son of God came down, took on a body of sinless flesh (John 1:14) as He was born of a virgin (Mat 1:23). He was both God and man in one Person. He was born under the Law to keep and fulfill it (Mat 5:18, Gal 4:4). He did that, not for Himself, but for all those He represented because they could not keep it themselves. The word of God calls these people the elect or His sheep, among several other names. His obedient life also included the part of dying. He took on the sin of His people as both a Substitute and Representative of those people. The Bible said He was "made to be sin" (II Cor 5:21) and the way that was done is by God imputing (legally reckoned or charged to the account of) sin to Christ. That means all the sin of all those people God chose was "laid on Him" (Isaiah 53:6). This sin was legally transferred to His account and He then owned it in such a way to be guilty of it all. God the Father poured out His wrath and hatred toward sin on His Son and had pleasure (Isaiah 53:10) in doing so, in that, He was completely satisfied in Christ as a Sacrifice that met all the demands of His strict Law and inflexible justice. Christ finished the work of paying the penalty of the Law and then said " It is finished" (John 19:30). He secured salvation for all God’s chosen people that would even be born. His resurrection is evidence of the acceptance of His sacrifice to the Father. The combined work of His obedience to the Law and His obedience unto death on the cross was considered establishing righteousness. This is what one of the Old Testament prophets prophesied as "bringing in an everlasting righteousness" (Daniel 9:24) as Christ died effectually and exclusively for those chosen of God before the world began (Eph 1:4). This righteousness is what God imputes to His people in the context of giving the life to believe in Christ. This puts them in a state called "Justification" and as a result they are eternally secure, in Christ. This is the gospel (Rom 1:16-17). All this takes place in such a way to show God as both a God of justice and a Savior. This is how grace reigns through righteousness (Rom 5:21)

[@Quach7]

"To everything there is a season, A time to be born, and a time to die . . . A time to heal, and a time to kill." - Ecclesiastes. And killing is what martial arts is all about.

[@huntermosely7420]

Ah yes bjj and their knowlege

[@rollsgracie268]

Rolls Brought the Wrestling into Jiu Jitsu Brought the American wrestling into Jiujitsu. Bob Anderson American wrestler I believe. It might’ve already been there in judo. That he got it from Bob Anderson He?

[@kananisha]

BJJ stand up is just watered down or bastardized Judo throws. The same as BJJ is just Judo Newaza. BJJ = Basically Just Judo.

[@PaladinJackal]

BJJ stand up is just watered down or bastardized Judo throws" Eh the vast majority amount of time it's not. It's much lower level to mid level wrestling with grip fighting.

[@Taekwon-Brando]

I only kind of agree with you but as someone who does both I can tell you the newaza in bjj compared to that in judo is on a whole other level nowadays. But no lie bjj guys can't hold a proper kesa gatame for shit when they try

[@Karen-fs6lf]

Okada sensei I trained with for 2 months great man learned lots of stuff

[@thedopesickshow]

I’m brown in judo blue in bjj at separate gyms, and at one time you’d be correct about bjj being judo newaza. Today it has been developed tremendously, so many techniques have been added and guards developed that it is absolutely nothing like it originally was. Bjj allows me to be king of the castle in judo newaza. Judo allows me to dominate standing in bjj, I did my last 3 bjj competitions in 6 weeks (each 3 apart) and got double gold gi and no gi in the first two taking every opponent down. The 3rd was gi only, I lost on points and did not get a takedown. Together they make me have an advantage, I’m pretty good at bjj on the ground and pretty good at judo standing, but nothing special. With what they’ve become today they actually fit together perfectly and cross training gives you a tremendous advantage.

[@thedopesickshow]

@@Taekwon-Brando Kesa gatame is something I’ve been using as a submission recently with a lot of success. Henry Akins has an instructional called “scarf hold soul stealer” that has helped me a lot. Basically it’s a chest compression, my eyes opened to it from Aleksi Oleynik and also Josh Barnett submitting ADCC champ Dean Lister with it.