body neutrality is on the rise... but not without its shortcomings

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i wish i had mentioned the politicization of bodies explicitly (e.g., • Why Body Neutrality Do... )
***this is NOT a diss on body neutrality. just trying to talk about how it isn't the final solution -- how there can' never be one movement that is objectively better when body image is a complex relationship, unique to every individual.
✧･ﾟ: ✧･ﾟ: i'd love to hear what you all have to say *:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 intro
5:46 introducing the interviewees :D
9:11 contextualizing thoughts from our guests
19:37 privilege behind body neutrality
21:30 individual-centred movements
25:58 part something: i'm a narcissist
29:36 a sprinkle of phenomenology
32:26 romanticism vs. realism
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★・・・・・★・・・・・★
SOURCES:
Amy Lee Life Coaching. "My body is not my worth • Body Neutrality." • My body is not my wort...
"The Body is Not an Apology - Sonya Renee Taylor." • The Body is Not an Apo...
The Body Image Podcast. "S4, Ep.7: Positive Body Image: More than Loving Your Body or Self with Shira Rosenbluth." open.spotify.com/episode/03fY...
DiveThru. "The History of Body Neutrality, Body Positivity & Fat Liberation." divethru.com/body-neutrality-...
Horn, Natalie, "Body Neutrality."
digitalcommons.tacoma.uw.edu/...
Holla, S. "Justifying Aesthetic Labor: How Fashion Models Enact Coherent Selves" 10.1177/0891241615575067
John Immerwahr. "What is Impressionism?" • What is Impressionism?
Kyle Banick. "Phil 492: Merleau-Ponty on the Body Schema." • Phil 492: Merleau-Pont...
Kyle Banick. "Phil 492: Merleau-Ponty The Ambiguity of Being-in-the-world: Phantom Limb and Bodily Intentionality." • Phil 492: Merleau-Pont...
The Labia Lounge. "Body Neutrality - The Realistic Approach to Body Image Suffering with Jessi Kneeland." open.spotify.com/episode/3q1w...
Laver, J. "Fashion, Art, and Beauty." www.jstor.org/stable/3258880?...
Merleau-Ponty. Phenomenology of Perception (1945).
Perry, M., Watson, L., Hayden, L., & Inwards-Breland, D. "Using body neutrality to inform eating disorder management in a gender diverse world." doi-org.myaccess.library.utor...
Philinthecircle. "Romanticism - Overview from Phil Hansen." • Romanticism - Overview...
Phlinthecircle. "Realism - Overview from Phil Hansen." • Realism - Overview fro...
Robinson, T. "Body Styles: Redirecting Ethics and the Question of Embodied Empathy in Fashion Design" doi.org/10.1080/17569370.2022...
Rowan Ellis. "The Ugly Truth of Acne Representation." • The Dangerous Rise Of ...
Salem Tovar. "The Body Positivity Movement Is Not So Positive Anymore..." • The Body Positivity Mo...
Sartre, Jean Paul. No Exit (1944).
Schatzki, T. R. The Social and Political Body (1996).
Skov, L., Skjold, E., Moeran, B., Larsen, F., & Csaba, F. "The Fashion Show as an Art Form." research-api.cbs.dk/ws/portal...
MUSIC:
Schubert: Piano Sonata No. 21 In B Flat Major, D.960 - I. Molto moderato
tags: body neutrality movement body positivity is toxic body image beauty standards philosophy tiktok social commentary female body issues society political social media twitter pinterest body neutrality compilation the political body instagram shanspeare, jordan theresa, cj the x, tiffany ferg, alice cappelle, contrapoints, philosophy tube, madisyn brown, chad chad, tee noir, salem tovar makeup toxic positivity romanticization fatphobia fatphobic fashion clothes modelling model industry problematic diet culture kiana docherty

[@oliSUNvia]

i never said body neutrality is bad 🙁i mentioned multiple times that it may very well be the best option for you and that it's still preferable to body positivity for a lot of people. i was just trying to show that saying "body neutrality is the solution" is not the end of the discussion, and i sought out different perspectives for that reason. i'm sorry i couldn't get more perspectives but getting responses for interviews is hard. i wish some of y'all wouldn't assume things that i never said

[@naib7631]

H0E anyways…let’s also talk about that conservative “phase” of yours where your boyfriend gave u a anti-black perspective about racial profiling and u were agreeing with it

[@SN-vn6wb]

Well said :)

[@naib7631]

@UCjI-J9OhyHw_whpEQqx6-CA u confused ? cause i could’ve sworn i said everything clearly

[@lucilleballs2291]

@@user-ez7vp5no1x such an insulting, cruel thing to say to anyone online regardless if you agree with them or not. u ok? U realize she can see the replies, right? Hello??

[@phelp5379]

@@naib7631 why are you calling her a hoe… kinda embarrassing ngl. Second she already admitted that her perspective on that was flawed. Apparently you didn’t watch the whole video.

[@MrWeebable]

Is it allowable for a woman to be non-ideal, non-beautiful and admit that? "I'm not beautiful, I wish I was, but I don't have to be" In comedy it's normal for guys to admit they're unattractive. They may lament that fact, but they can admit that and live with it. It's extremely rare for a woman to have that same attitude. So many of these discussions are about redefining beauty rather than dealing with the oppressive idea that every woman must be called beautiful, that a woman cannot be mentally healthy and also admit to herself and others that she is not beautiful.

[@caitlynursula1527]

i think it more comes from the oppressive ideas that societally a woman’s value is placed on her beauty

[@bingbong6323]

frrr. i have a friend who just genuinely thinks she's ugly as a fact, and she says it to people. not too frequently, she'd just casually be like "yea i'm ugly" and everyone would be like "nooo no ur not!!! are you okay? mentally? you know you can always talk to me :(" etc. shit like that. like no, she has told me and you multiple times that she has no issues with her self worth and she doesn't hate herself at all, she just knows she doesn't look good aesthetically to most people and she accepts it. she thinks highly of herself in other aspects though, such as her skills. and it's just overall so annoying when everyone is basically forcing her to think about her beauty more and think she's gorgeous when she doesn't think she is, nor does she care enough to. p.s this doesn't correlate at all to how i view her, i personally think she's beautiful but i'm not going to try and force her to agree with me.

[@Uhshawdude]

I really felt this watching this video as a cis guy. I’ve only recently gotten into this side of KZbin, and while beauty and appearance are certainly huge factors in everyones life, as a man it feels as though its almost optional? Like everyone wants to be attractive, but it’s not a requirement to be seen as a respectable person. You can be as fat, ugly, and old as you like and still have high self esteem, because men are allowed to base their self worth on their abilities and accomplishments rather than their appearances. There are world famous beloved actors like Danny Devito or Jack Black who have never been conventionally attractive, who nevertheless don’t seem to be plagued by hoards of people calling them ugly or fat like unattractive female actresses are. The Western male default kinda is body neutrality in terms of appearance, unless you fall outside of other masculine criteria. The flipside of this is that disabled men are looked down on far more than disabled women from my experience. Because so much of masculinity is tied into the perception of power and influence, being visibly disabled kind of automatically means you’re deserving of less respect as a man by a lot of people. I feel like disabled women get more sympathy and compassion, while disabled men get pity.

[@AsteroSloth]

@@caitlynursula1527 well that’s the core of the issue, really. I think valuing a beautiful woman’s looks is just as negatively impacting this whole thing. We put so much value into it that the lack of it makes someone deem themselves unlovable so fast. I’m a ugly ass ace dude with 0 sense of fashion so I’m like literally the last person on earth to care about looks. It’s just very liberating, really. I wish more women could say as proudly as I do that they’re pretty fucking ugly and that it’s ok.

[@AsteroSloth]

@@Uhshawdude I agree 100%. Tbh I just wished nobody cared, like at all, ever again. Not even if you looked good.

[@JL-jo1rt]

I don't understand why we see everything as a movement or a "right" way of thinking nowerdays. Shouldn't we treat body-positivity and -neutrality just as personal believes or individual state of mind?

[@kurofire6473]

The need to fit in a group have made us this way. At first one could say society made us be alone so we seek to be part of something, but now the society and big corporations wants us to be part of this movements and ideas, they still push us to be alone just for later fit us somewhere else. This is not of course anything to do with trans people or whatever real problem they could have but a lot of the worsen mentality that people have lately is because of this constant search of the good way to do things, the moral highness. Movement and people join in good faith but down the road it develop radical ways and there is when things go ugly

[@jnny7182]

Right

[@zain5502]

It’s the internet. Even if the online communities supporting a specific idea are a minor percentage of the population, the existence of algorithms and trends highlights ideologies in a way that makes them seem like big movements. You’re right tho, there is no “right way” to think about most things. Individuals have individual needs. Overgeneralizing everything leads to a lot of issues lol

[@chrono4998]

yeah I was facepalming throughout the video for this. nothing she said was wrong but the point of body neutrality was for people to cope! body positivity was a "change the system" thing yes but body neutrality never set to do that and this whole video was just criticising something that strives to be a healthy coping mechanism for some for not being la revolution! enough. plus the people she interviewed were suspiciously uniform in opinion, all the radical let's change society!! what are you doing not changing society?? don't you see your personal thing doesn't work for everyone?? that's problematic! vibes. it may just be how she edited it to form a cohesive message. again nothing she said was WRONG. it just felt completely unnecessary and dishonest in its trying to be moral. ps I'm nonbinary too

[@user-fb4bg9dr7l]

Philosophers aren't therapists or life coaches! She is a philosophy student and is trying to analyse which one can be the most helpful and for what groups. It's literally what she does, she is not telling anyone what to do or how to live their lives. That's up to you! :)

[@agentgoblin4150]

Body neutrality is greatly misunderstood. You can be neutral towards your body, and feel positive about it. Oftentimes self acceptence starts with neutrality, and then becomes positivity (or remain neutrality, of course.)

[@dia.96]

This! I feel more confident accepting as it is than expecting it to be perceived as beautiful. "Accepting this body did not mean convincing myself that it was beautiful; it meant giving myself permission to exist regardless." - Aphrodite Made Me Do It. This quote helped me, lately I've even gained weight from my medication and I just accepted it and bought new clothes. Before, I would have stressed about if now I would be perceived as beautiful in a different way but now I just accept it as is and go from there. It took time but I'm so much comfortable with myself and my body now.

[@JRCGuitarist]

I disagree, body neutrality is not greatly misunderstood, actually body positivity is greatly misunderstood. Body Neutrality is an interesting concept, but somewhat an unnecessary one. And based on points I’ve seen as to why people came up with it, I don’t see it as a solution but more so people coming up with something while ignoring that what it seeks to “solve” can actually be dealt with if people would do better in how we communicate and structure movements so that we won’t have to keep coming with new ones. This is a waste of time frankly too much work keeping up with this stuff at some point. I think at this point, it best to to stick one movement, and learn to manage them better.

[@lilac9075]

@@JRCGuitarist i don't agree. I don't think body neutrality is unnecessary since it has helped so many people with things body positivity couldn't. And I also believe that sticking with only one movement when its core beliefs aren't helping everyone is wrong. People who don't feel identified with body positivity are forced to seek a different solution, and that might be body neutrality, so how in the world is it "unnecessary"?

[@jere3558]

Important is, that neutrality shouldn't be understood as indifference

[@miss_conduct.]

Will it "remain" positivity or neutrality though? Forever? Why am I, as merely a simple little human, called upon to stand against the swarm of corporations that put hundreds of millions of dollars in departments of psychologists trying to come up with psych tactics and manipulations to create insecurities and shame for me to sell their shit? How can I "just" separate myself from this capitalist environment I am a part of? Is it really more realistic than body positivity's "just love yourself" message? We don't live in a vacuum where we can "just" resist and "just" become immune to all these outside forces and influences? It's like saying to a cult member "hey, just become immune to brainwashing!". How about we target the root of the problem - "the cult" - or capitalism that sees people's bodies as a product to sell AND a customer to sell to? Simple awareness of beauty standards and capitalism being the root of all these problems does not make you more resistant to its propagandas either. And if someone thinks they are then this person is quite arrogant and doesn't live in reality. Body positivity/neutrality are trying to treat a brain tumor with painkillers. I'm happy if you found a temporary relief in those movements, but it will not last because no one is immune to propaganda unless we go live in the mountains away from civilization.

[@sarah_lou_]

As a chronically ill person with chronic pain body neutrality is much easier to attain than body positivity because it's simply impossible to unconditionally love a body that is so hard to live with. Body neutrality is a direction to guide my interactions with my body rather than an absolute rule

[@DeegieBa]

This. I felt this. I have to keep a mid mindset towards my own body so I don't begin spiraling when it inevitably does something wrong again. It's a very "it is what it is" state of mind. I don't have energy to worry about what I look like since I'm too busy with how I feel 24/7.

[@serinadelmar6012]

Spoonie section detected. ❤ this.

[@arioctober]

Same 🎉

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

“Let’s critique this because i’m an insufferable video essayist” i felt that 😮‍💨

[@yannickfaerber8261]

Hi Foreign!

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

@@yannickfaerber8261 bless up 🙏🏾❤️

[@SLYKM]

Fancy seeing you here!

[@basselwehbe8412]

love your content man

[@ThePotatoSackers]

Foreeeign 💪

[@mayam9575]

I am disabled (not gonna get into it but one of my organs doesn't work) and also have a kinda conventionally attractive body (tall, small waist and big boobs). I really like the idea of body neutrality because I think that it is the best for me personally because it feels more achievable. However, I can't think of my body as a tool and still feel good about it. My body really succeeds as an ornament but it really fails as a tool. My body does not work the way that it should. Body positivity feels worse to me because I dislike being perceived as an ornament. Part of the reason I have a skinny body is because my meds sometimes make me nauseated and it feels gross to me to love the look of the sick underweight body. I one thing that I think both movements lack is that I think it is ok to feel bad about your body. It's a lot of pressure to always feel happy and I often fail at both positivity and neutrality

[@kitty7901]

in that body neutrality infographic that’s talking about loving your legs because they help you run, i always think about if i didn’t have use of my legs and i saw this i would feel so incredibly shitty. i love what you said about BOTH neutrality and positivity shoving happiness down ur throat, because i think that in body neutrality assuming that everyone’s body does work as an instrument is a major shortcoming.

[@annapruitt5546]

Right! My body doesn’t always function the way it should. Sometimes my body causes me lots of problems. Sometimes I am angry and disappointed because of my body. I still love life and I am still thankful for what I do have, but I think I’m allowed to be upset sometimes. It doesn’t work to lie to myself and pretend that everything is great all of the time. It feels better to complain when I am suffering. It feels more freeing to be able to express all of these aspects and accept the truth that these problems are part of me

[@Damian-ri4fx]

This is such a great point, and your experience sounds very intertwined with these terms of positivity and nuetrality. When talking about bodies it's strange to commit to one state of mind. Always being positive or always being neutral and logical is not a very feasible solution. Though it's nice to be grateful of the parts of our bodies that do function and to not take those functioning aspects for granted, being in a body is strange and gross and sometimes hurts. Sometimes it hurts some more then others and we should think about that more. We get achnes and pains, scratches and bruises, and sometimes lifelong inguries and diabilitites. Nuetralility in those cases could almost be a form of repressing emotions. It's definitely good to never box yourself in with these simple one word internet midsets, but it's cool people are attempting to think about body image more deeply.

[@AnnaItem]

oh my gosh, as a moderately conventionally attractive disabled person i resonate with this SO much. SO much

[@13realmusic]

Yes, I recently had a lot of health issues and it made me so uncomfortable to have people compliment my new figure because to me it was a marker of my ongoing pain. It made me better appreciate how complimenting someone’s lost weight can be just as insensitive as noting them gaining weight. I think we need to focus a bit more on how to communicate to people how we enjoy them in their bodies without triggering body dysmorphia.

[@basicallybet]

After I had a really traumatic pregnancy, I became disillusioned about my body, and when I tried to talk to people about it, they insisted on telling me, “You’re still beautiful!” Only I didn’t care about feeling beautiful. My body had stopped working. It had failed to do its job during my pregnancy, and that was (and still is) distressing. But nobody wanted to talk about that because it was a concrete fact that they couldn’t do anything about. The fact that perception doesn’t have to have a foundation in anything concrete is definitely comforting for some people. Beauty can look like anything to an individual, so in the right context, anyone can be beautiful. The functionality of the body is a different story.

[@rainkidwell2467]

^this

[@arioctober]

I relate so hard. My emergency C section saved both our lives but scared the hell outta me. Pregnancy itself was also just absolute torture. To top it all off now I've even got a "fupa" to add insult to injury 🙄

[@eusen3608]

I think it’s important for us to recognize that quite a lot of disabled people, myself included, have a very big and a different type of mind-body disconnect compared to able-bodied people. From my experience with talking to other disabled people about the topic I’ve noticed that we oftentimes see our body as a completely different entity from ourselves. It’s very hard to explain to able-bodied people the complete distrust you have to your body, expecting it to betray you at any turn and how it often feels like you’re being punished by some sort of abusive entity that is both you and not you. This makes it much harder to love your body, just like it’d be hard to love a ghost that did the same things to you. A lot of able-bodied people think that the goal of working through the issues that you have with your body in relation to your disability is to love your body that often times hinders movement, causes pain and a myriad of other issues relating to specific disabilities. Disabled people, often teens and young adults, pick up on this which leads them to forcefully love a body that will only return that love with what can be perceived as betrayal, leading to issues with insecurity and self-hatred for not placating this body that’s both another and the same as you. I think the best way to put this is, ‘would you expect me to love an abusive entity that is impossible to get rid off? Or do you think it’s more realistic to have us be neutral about this entity while being aware of how it affects us in daily life and working the best we can to lessen its effects?’ I’ve chosen the second option and it’s helped me work through a lot of things I just couldn’t before, it has also decreased the disappointment I feel in myself for not loving my body hard enough. Of course positivity might work for some disabled people we’re not a monolith after all, I personally just wanted to share a bit of food for thought regarding disabled peoples relationships with body-positivity/neutrality.

[@GeekProdigyGuy]

interestingly but perhaps not surprisingly neurodivergent folks / people with mental health issues often say similar things about their mind; that it's you but not. I'm fortunate in being able to cope with my issues but hearing it from that lens gives me gut-level empathy for people with physical disabilities. I think neutrality is definitely at least valuable for lots of people in that sense. Like how mindfulness is criticized for not addressing action and environment etc - neutrality isn't the end goal, it's not a complete perspective, and it's not a silver bullet. But as long as it helps it's worth talking and thinking about.

[@Zimzum93]

You took the words out of my mouth. I was given this useless broken crippled sack of shif body and I have to make do with it whether I like it or not. It isn’t very useful, or comfortable, it’s not beautiful and it isn’t even the right gender for fucks sake! I got such a raw deal. But the body we get is entirely random like all our genetics are. A lot of my mental shit is genetically predisposed too. But I do have a control over my mind to an extent aside from the geniticslly predisposed stuff so I focus on that which I can control and be glad for that at least. I try to control my mental illness as much as I can and learn as much as I can and be as good of a person as I can etc. I use my body as much as I am able and cling to the things it can do especially the very very few rare things it can do well. But over all I try to be as indifferent as possible. I don’t need to be useful or beautiful to be worthy of existence, I simply must exist and that makes me worthy in itself because to come into existence is such a rare and beautiful chance all on its own

[@nathaneden.]

Agreed, I’ve also seen this in how some parts of the autistic community refer to meltdowns, myself included. For some us meltdowns are extremely common, wether we like it or not so to cope with that we treat our meltdowns with neutrality. “Oh it’s just another meltdown, I just gotta do xyz calming method and I’ll be good.” It’s as simple as that and ever since I have started doing this my meltdowns have become much more manageable, along with it helping to deconstruct internalized ableism.

[@Nyx-lo9sj]

This is so powerful

[@fisrtnamelastname3083]

People with neurodivergence kind of have a similar mindset in that they often think of their disorders as "being possessed by yourself"

[@Cornlordcreates]

I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as someone who is physically disabled and looks very different from the beauty standard (I have stunted growth, bend limbs, specific headshape, wheelchair bound you get the general vibe). In the past I have tried to practise body positivity, I tried to love myself and tell myself I am in fact still beautiful. However, this is almost impossible to practise and genuinely believe in when the entire world considers you unattractive. I have never seen anyone in media who looks like me or be normalised in a way. It is difficult to believe in something general society does not believe in. So I have found more peace in body neutrality, but it is also important to recognise that being able to fully practise body neutrality is a privilege. For example, a white skinny abled person can easily practise body neutrality because they are not forced to constantly recognisebody. Their body is normalised so they do not stand out. In addition they also do not have to constantly feel their body and the effects it had on their daily lives. For example let's say you are insecure about your legs. When you are abled, you are not forced to constantly see and feel your legs. But, if you are in fact wheelchair bound you are constantly forced to feel and recognise your legs. You feel yourself in your seat, you have to stay aware of the fact you cannot use your legs, thus you are constantly aware of them and the insecurities they bring. I hope I am able to convey what I am trying to say here. Being disabled means constantly having to recognise your body's failures and lack of acceptance in society for them thus it is harder to practise body neutrality. Neutrality is hard to practise if at its core your body is a negative, (a dysfunctional body). I think in a way maybe a mix of both is needed: an acceptance of the way things are and being glad that even though it is not perfectly functional, your body is keeping you alive and give you the ability to interact with the world (body neutrality). In addition we also need to sometimes tell ourselves that our faults can be pretty or we can be beautiful with them (body positivity). We can recognise that we are not perfect but I think feeling pretty is something everyone deserves. It is in fact a nice feeling, to be recognised as worthy in appearance.

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

I think its something we all have to think about and everyone come to their own conclutions on what they can do, because as mentioned in the video, some people have it diferent than others and especially one good way to start is to know what are the problems and what are your goals

[@marlenathea1618]

This resonates so much with me. Due to my disability i walk with a limp and have a very hard time practising body neutrality because i am reminded every day that my body doesnt function properly. I try not to think about it too much but it is really hard. Even though things are changing in our society and people are more accepting nowadays, we will never truly achieve full acceptance and so I feel like it is my responsibility to accept myself, though there are days when that seems nearly impossible

[@katersss]

thank you for the insight, my boyfriend has been disabled his entire life and although i am not disabled, I recently have had body dysmorphia from my weight. We have totally diff experiences, I cannot understand his pain and sometimes, he cannot really understand my body image issues especially since I don’t have any disabilities. Somehow though, he seems to understand the discomfort I have so well and I find solace that I’m not alone. I think your point about body neutrality being tied to privilege in some ways stands in my situation. I have the privilege of having conventional body issues and body issues that can change and my body didn’t take up 99% of my thoughts before I developed the anxiety around it. Body neutrality was way more attainable and mentally stabilizing when my body was actually closer to society’s image of average and normal. I have tried to help my boyfriend feel as normal and body neutral as possible but I also recognize that there is no realistic way to be neutral about the painful or unfortunate parts of his disability. Acting neutral would likely make his struggles feel trivialized. I know how people perceive him, and I don’t try to make him believe no one will judge him. I just try to remind him that there’s other things to be excited about, other parts of his body to focus on, and people that won’t mind just like me. Just wanted to share my perspective as someone who loved someone disabled and I do love their body

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

@@katersss your boyfriend may have a hard time with his body on múltiple diferent levels, how much his body works, how he looks, the fact that it prevents him from doing maybe ""easy"" stuff, the fact that it takes more of his thoughts, the pain itself and much more, but he has someone by his side that can allways boost his confidence just a little bit more: YOU

[@mariapaz6379]

thanks for your input, i believe your experience matters a lot on this discussion, as it lands on the weaknesses of body neutrality. To think of bodies as tools, might be good for able-bodied people, but for those who are disabled, it seems pretty limited. I do feel, like currently as a society we try too hard to turn things into positives, and to be honest i don't know why. To be disabled is a disadvantage in this world, the environment is not constructed for those who have different needs, and that is not a positive thing. Disability also, does not exist to create better people, suffering does not happen to improve the person and does not always have a purpose. I think that us able-bodied people, should practice empathy more often with others, because we are the majority and therefore have better resources to help. But i also believe that disable people are allowed to be both happy with their lives, and also experience the frustrations of their existence. Finally, i just want to say that we should be able to vent how we feel, without feeling ashamed that our perceptions doesn't match that of others. And that's why reading yours is also so nice. Thanks again, have a nice day.

[@CureSmileful]

At first I thought body neutrality means that we just acknowledge that our body is what it is and accept some "components" or accept not accepting them, go through grief and work with what we got and I definitely prefer that over "my body is an instrument, I love my legs because they work".

[@lvmln7843]

i also interpret it that way, more like "my body doesn't represent my value and i'll have to be in it for the rest of my life so I might at least try to care about it less" than "oh my body functions well so i love it", because it's ableist and my body doesn't function well at times and that's okay. so idk i think body neutrality can mean different things to different people. i'm not going to try to find a new term just because some people use it in an ableist way

[@theatrejams7156]

Yeah! I thought body neutrality focused more on acceptance rather than forcing yourself to be happy and loving it all the time, but i guess lots of people have different interpretations like the replier above says

[@hans9725]

yeah most of what I've read about body neutrality is just that - you have neutral/balanced feelings toward your body. it's not "respecting it as a tool" which seems vaguely capitalistic/ableist to me

[@hans9725]

also presenting as an "object of desire" as a model is kind of "using your body as a tool," just one is more feminine-coded and one is more masculine coded

[@y4554]

To me it’s not having positive or negative feelings towards the body and detaching emotions towards it

[@dia.96]

"Accepting this body did not mean convincing myself that it was beautiful; it meant giving myself permission to exist regardless." This quote change the way I saw my own body. It helped me a lot with the way I perceived my body, so what if x thing about me isn't beautiful it is still allowed to exist. Some of the downfalls of body neutrality is that not every body is functional. I have a lot of medical issue, so might not properly function but it is still allowed to exist. My cousin is a model in beauty pageants and music videos. She was shamed daily in a model house to stand every day in a scale to make sure she didn't gain weight, she was also forced to get a rhinoplasty and a boob job to keep her job. She was also made to workout everyday for hours. It was a very toxic industry and she's reduce the amount of work she did. I think she's pretty much about to quit :/

[@JoeyisDREADful]

Idk, I think neutrality still helps as a disabled person. I can't be positive about my stupid traitor flesh prison that doesn't work properly but I can be like "Well. It is what it is, better than nothing. I'm alive."

[@simplyshama]

I didn't realise that I practiced body neutrality already until this video. Particularly with body hair and discolouration in my case. It literally just means indifference. Like sure, I would prefer for it not to be there but I'm gonna pretend I do not see it and get on with my day. This approach allows you to not get stuck on things that ultimately shouldn't matter!

[@angelenergia2163]

I am the same way now! My late teens I was not but now at 24 I feel very indifferent to things I used to think were flaws

[@simplyshama]

@Nicollas Cloud Definitely take care of yourself, especially if you're seeking that superficial desirability that, let's be honest, all humans like! But when it comes to what you perceive as imperfection, just know that no one cares or is paying attention as much as you are. And soo many other things make people desirable like confidence, style, intellect, hygiene/grooming, personality. It's better to focus on what you can control

[@user-lt6ve9ns4d]

Same. My thinking was: it's ok that my body doesn't look like a model, they get paid for it and I don't. My body looks normal, thats it

[@Afreshio]

i know a man chiming in and having an opinion is looked down upon in this kind of enviroments, but let me tell you most men don't care about body hair. unless its facial body hair and legs and armits. and even some men love their armpit hair. a bit of hair in the arms, nipples, or the natural pubic hair? thats something 90% of straight men wouldn't complain. theres this loud minority of retarded terminally porn addict men that would scream heresy because they see body hair in women: ladies, don't reproduce with those assholes and let their genes and stupidity rot in oblivion. and if you wanna let your hair in legs and armpits and face grow, so be it. there will be weird looks and some stupid ass mf mean comments because whats life without some dumbass retarded comment? but eventually people will accept it. i admit im biased and i just find leg and armipit hair in women just icky and unattractive, but i would never say anything. people have their reasons and anyways that trend its a social construct. but belly hair, pubic, and other areas? whatever. my last exgf was like this and honestly its just whatever. her sister had even more arm hair and her bf didn't care either. social media warps our perception of ourselves and thats where body dismorphia disorders exarcebate. note: excuse my shitty english, I'm writing fast and isn't my native language.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

"Practicing body neutrality" yall make a quirky term for everything

[@YourLoyalDeserter]

I don’t think the real solution is body positivity or body neutrality, but instead body insignificance. As someone with a non-ideal body, I just can’t convince myself that my body is beautiful, especially as a gay man, I know what an attractive body is and I know that mine isn’t. Regardless, this doesn’t affect my mental health because I know that whether or not my body is attractive is not at all relevant to whether I am a good or worthy person. It just doesn’t matter that much. This is how we all already approach our singing voices. Most people are bad singers, but the solution to that is not to have us all convince ourselves we’re Pavarotti and that everyone’s singing is beautiful, or to convince ourselves that our voices are merely tools. It’s just to stop giving a fuck about how good our singing voices are.

[@ania1661]

wait I’m kinda confused - what’s the difference between neutrality and insignificance?

[@ilse3614]

i think sadly this kind of view isn’t possible to acquire for everyone. also i don’t think there’s a solution for how to view your own body but more a way to cope with the negatives you may feel about your body

[@googlekopfkind]

finally a comment i can agree with

[@dugglebay3483]

@@ilse3614 It is perhaps the person's self-image and self-esteem that matters the most in such a scenario. Inducing some mass psychosis to cause everyone to believe in such an odd concept incongruous to reality is quite unlikely.

[@-caio-2729]

But the thing is that, people like Pavorotti voice. Even if him dont give a shit about it. People like it, then for him, doesnt matter if his voice is good, bad or whatever, people still like it, and tell him that his voice is good and he will probably think that his voice is actually good u know? (not a native speaker, sorry)

[@ameliaacker6246]

Disabled perspective here. I’ve really struggled with body image and self love. I felt obligated to love my body despite the fact that it sometimes lets me down and prevents me from doing things I would love. There’s also this pressure to be proudly disabled, which I understand, and I’m proud of how my challenges have made me resilient and empathetic, but not necessarily how my body looks or acts, and I can’t help that. Appreciating my body for a function is less helpful because sometimes it doesn’t do the function it’s supposed to. I can’t just not think about my body or my health would plummet. So there is no perfect answer, and your deep dive is appreciated

[@squishmcmuffin]

thank you for bringing this up. i had adopted more body neutral ideas like i think ok that works until i can barely move my hands and they don't function as they should. when you're body literally fails you idk all movements go out the window for me. sometimes it helps to affirm that I'm more than what i can physically do and that i mean something to others, friends who are willing to be my hands etc. there's definitely no one movement or line of thought that can help everyone. everyone needs to have their own coping strategies but everyone has to start somewhere with what that is. we're not taught it in school that's for sure

[@kiwo579]

jesus christ how many disabled people are here, gfu tho

[@johannaguerrero1790]

Yeah this is something where I'm getting to a point of like, my body is how its supposed to be, f everything else in our society that doesn't accomodate or prohibits me from using my body in the way I can. Its helped me a lot to move away from internalizing these kinds of things because why should it come down to my perspective of my body? Especially when much of how I'm able to move in a space is clearly dictated by someone else and I'm born the way I look. I see body neutrality having some use here in that if I don't feel positively about my body then I am allowed to reject the negative feelings that arise as a result of how our communities build space for me/people like me. If it were really only about my personal perspective of my body, that would be a simpler issue to overcome. The idea that I should have to overcome a negative perspective of myself and go as far as having a positive image feels like an ableist byproduct of our capitalist system. Youth, physical/mental ability, beauty as they are currently valued and defined in our society serve as tools of oppression and methods of establishing power. Who ends up at the top when we consider the most valued out of these norms? And why is anyone who falls below left to feel negatively about themselves or pressured to accept it? I do not accept the idea that people are supposed to aspire to an ideal when our very nature as humans is existing in community with others. Why then, if we are social creatures who build society together, would having different abilities and appearances not be of value? Everyone is valuable.

[@Dutchwheelchair]

@@kiwo579 we are everywhere

[@Dutchwheelchair]

i totally agree. But i still struggle with it. but it would be nice if society would accept us more

[@cocalatte.7600]

I'm an ex-ballerina and wanted to point out that the modeling industry isn't the only one where body neutrality may be unrealistic. Ballet has a very specific body type that is preached: white, skinny and petite. Many plus sized dancers are shamed endlessly about their weight, black and brown dancers are either heavily criticized or entirely overlooked. I'd say that the way one percieves their body is theirs; right or wrong isn't part of the equation, just what works for you personally versus what doesn't.

[@madelinevlogs5898]

I agree as someone who also used to do ballet. I quit when I was 15 because I was gaining weight and my breasts were growing. I felt so insecure because I didn’t fit the mold of a skinny girl with no curves. And I was a size 8-10 at the time, so I can’t imagine what it would be like for someone who has a larger body

[@gudinesangelicau]

UP-

[@cocalatte.7600]

@@madelinevlogs5898 Well said. Ballet is already a show of super-human strength and flexibility by design, the pain makes people give up, it's unnecessary to make it worse than it already is. Some teachers are always making their students who are healthy lose even more weight, as if weight = ability to perform well.

[@roarbertbearatheon8565]

@@cocalatte.7600 The visual is as much about the performance as the movements. It also makes some sense that lighter = less encumbered, i.e. easier, swifter motions

[@cocalatte.7600]

@@roarbertbearatheon8565 I have no clue what you're talking about. There were large and petite girls in my class and we were on the same level based on ability, not on how much we weighed. Fat girls are as capable of doing 'less encumbered, easier, swifter motions' as the skinny girls. There's no reason to shame them.

[@siimsimmy]

"change is hard when the systems don't budge". You're so right. While some of the "self-work" can be valuable for people it's really hard to just become neutral or even positive and loving toward yourself, when the world is still so violent towards you

[@tientruong2007]

Change what systems you surround yourself with then. If all your friends are a slave to the superficial consumerist system, naturally it's very hard to transcend it.

[@MichelleSmith-gt1py]

@@tientruong2007 i think she's talking about things like violent white supremacy. simply 'talking with your friends' won't change that and we need ways to cope in the meantime.

[@TheOrangVegetal]

Bodybuilder here. I mostly support body neutrality. Body dismorphia is extremely common amongst bodybuilders, as they dont feel like they are big enough. The fact that you can pass all the societal standards for what an attractive body is, yet you still dont feel good enough says a lot. Often there's a set of self imposed expectations that are not completely in line with society's expectations, yet when we dont meet these standards we don't feel good enough. Not meeting societies standard is not what's causing this feeling, it's not meeting standards in general thats making us feel like this. It doesn't matter if it is your mother, you yourself, society or something else that tells you you dont look good enough, it's going to hurt. This is where i partially support body neutrality as a bodybuilder, because if your body doesnt look like you want it to right now, you will have that body in 2 months. In 2 months however, your expectation of what your body should look like at that point is still 2 months behind. There's no meeting those expectations as a bodybuilder, because the standards are constantly changing anyway. If we could just accept how we looked right now, then half of the bodybuilding population wouldn't have muscle/body dismorphia. Now for the critique of body neutrality from my point of view: Its very much possible to feel good about your body, whether it genuinely conforms to societal expectations or not. If we could make everybody in the world instantly adopt a mindset of body neutrality, we would take away a lot of mental anguish, but we'd also take away a lot of good things. That last part doesn't seem right to me. You can't truly live in a world of body neutrality if there's still people that feel genuinely good or bad about their body, but we shouldnt take away peoples ability to love their body. We should be uplifting everybody instead of leveling the playing field Thanks for reading :) -Bas

[@shweetnectar]

what you mention about self-imposed expectations is especially true bc of the pump; you'll never be as big as your pump, but you will see it everyday and then go back home and lose it.

[@ale.6195]

I find the self-imposed standards the hardest to overcome. I meet and pass all the western beauty standards. But despite that, I'm still my biggest critic. Overall, I think body neutrality should be reserved for the parts that you aren't confident in. *🚫I don't normally use these, but TW: self-harm and starvation.🚫* I love my body 95% of the time, but that 5% is horrible. I've starved myself, self-harmed, etc. I would go days without eating, to the point where I was in constant pain, feeling like my stomach was being balled up. To where it became tight and I could hardly move and all I could do was cry until it was over. and eating in this state made me feel sick. But body neutrality helps me prevent from going that far. Understanding that you have imperfections and just accepting that does wonders for your mental.

[@AaronDarcy]

The bodybuilding body dysmorphia is so real brother 😂

[@skair5425]

This is so true, I think social media is especially powerful here, it's easy to compare yourself to everyone on TikTok with better physiques lifting far more than you.

[@doctorlove5415]

@@shweetnectar 1000%! Fellow bodybuilder here, nothing to add but you and the original poster make excellent points, I’ve been through exactly those struggles myself ~

[@laurenball9299]

Personally I’ve always seen body neutrality as a “it is what it is” approach. Basically not forcing yourself to love, literally just accepting that that’s what you’ve got right now. Though, I wouldn’t say that you shouldn’t change something you really hate - but I don’t think body neutrality ever says that. I don’t think any solution is for everyone or every body image issue tho. But I feel body positivity can end up being quite toxic and for me lead to self-depreciation. For example, it doesn’t how much I tried I could not love my body hair (I’m pale with thick dark hair so it was very visible), I removed it off my arms but it’s still on my back. I can’t reach it, so I just have to accept that it’s there really. It’s not just as simple as that, it’s a process at the end of the day, but that’s the idea of it from my experience.

[@RevertedRashidah]

Please don’t be embarrassed to get waxed, sugared, or lasered by a professional if that’s something you’re willing to consider. I have excessive (in my personal opinion) body hair and I’ve never had a bad experience with a hair removal professional. They’ve seen it all.

[@tayanahemphill7110]

Same.

[@dia.96]

@@RevertedRashidah but why get it remove? When you can accept that it just exists?? There's no need to. The only reason we feel that need is to be perceived a certain way. I don't shave/wax anymore and i actually feel so much better about myself

[@aimeeamestoy7413]

@@dia.96 i think sometimes I feel much more confident knowing I fit into the standards. It doesn’t mean I won’t accept myself the days I don’t. It just gives me confidence interacting with my environment and the world. I know they are biases and come from beauty standards and society, but fitting in some, sometimes, can help to feel confident. Edit : I guess what I am trying to say is yes neutrality is great but it’s also ok to change some aspects of your body to feel more confident Example : I do not hate my body hair but I do not feel comfortable in public with it in some areas, I prefer to remove some

[@nikitatavernitilitvynova]

@@dia.96 that's the issue with body positivity. People who seek help or beauty remedies get shunned for doing so. And the core issue is you can't always love yourself. I didn't like myself growing up. I just learnt to accept that's how I am and I can't do anything about it. But if you can do something to improve yourself that's even better. I'm uncomfortable about my white hairs at the age of 21. So I asked my mom to dye it red with a box die. And I love it. I feel a lot more confident knowing I don't look half white half dark brown. Loving a feature you don't love or accepting it is hard and can be take a mental toll. It can be all you think about at times. Just be mindful and kind.

[@atopodentatus]

I’m a trans man and I HATED body positivity for years and couldn’t put my finger on it. Seeing all the “you’re beautiful🥺🥺🥺” and “you don’t need to change, just embrace yourself!” would infuriate me. I would see social media telling me that “xyz are just natural parts of a womans body and you should embrace it” and hate myself for not being able to love my body. Years later I realized why the extreme reactions, and take testosterone nowadays. I still hate my body, and wish I was taller, stronger, etc. but the “it is what it is” help me go through my day to day life. I like body neutrality more than positivity in regards to not having to pretend to love yourself

[@Afreshio]

I'm a man, biological man, and I still hate parts of my body. I wish i was taller, have a deeper voice, have more muscles, wish i could grow a proper beard, etc. Recently I developed male pattern baldness so i had to go bald. I'm quite content with it most of the time, but theres some insecurity. I still exercise and plan to gain more. I would love to take tetosterone but I don't really know how I could get my hands on that. Point is, we should normalized that adult people could get tetosterone whenever we want, at least not higher dosage. It's incredible the amount of biological men struggling with fucking feminine traits just because some hormonal imbalances. Add to that I have acne even tho im in my early 30s. It's bullshit I have to struggle with this. Cystic acne and acne scars... I just grew accostumed with my ugly face. I don't make a big deal about this and instead focus in something else. im too broke to buy a proper facil skin treatment. it is what it is. I wish I have a bigger dick, but its average I guess although the average size for the female brain is way bigger. Same with height. Crazy broke ass standards perpetuated by instagram and now tiktok. Point is, it doesn't even if you are born in the right body. Hormones and development can and will fuck your body up. Attractive people are a tiny minority but overrrepresented in everything because we are dumb monkies attracted to certain traits that aren't even that important to reproduction. And even nowadays with the prevalence of plastic surgeries. So take it easy. Stay strong.

[@Emperor-Inker]

Though you identify as a trans man, as a biological man, in his mid 20s please understand it's not that you were born a biological female but rather your hormones & overall development. Some men are tall some men are short, muscle mass differs, intelligence, athletic ability & so much more differs. Look idk why you felt the desire to be a man or rejection to being female, but don't fantasize that by changing gender that everything will be perfect as it's not. Males have issues, desires, insecurities, similar to Females. For me I'm overweight / fat & my fat builds up in my chest, legs & bottom mainly. Meanwhile I'm sure if I was a woman I wouldn't feel as insecure as those are areas that women tend to desire to put on weight in, if you can understand where I'm coming from. So in short it's your DNA, I'm not even referring to sex, as there are females out there who are taller & stronger than the average male (minus working out & such).

[@rubyrootless7324]

​@@Emperor-InkerPretty sure he knows that :> Don't worry. He just said transitioning made it easier to accept himself and he just wishes he could be certain things a little more. In that way, it's a pretty similar if not the same experience of cis men... or people overall. We kinda all have things we're not extremely confident about. That's not a trans thing ^^ Still empathize with you, dude. Hope you're doing ok, kinda sounds like things are rough for you rn.

[@nathaneden.]

Same bro from one trans guy to another

[@starthornfromscratch2718]

I love this comment, though for me it isn't gender dysphoria but other things. Sometimes people just aren't comfortable with their bodies, and body positivity might not be right for them. I hope you have a good day.

[@alyseyer6366]

Body positivity doesn't erase this mindset that you need to be beautiful. Because it's just changing what beautiful is and means. But a lot of times you just don't FEEL beautiful, and forcing yourself to say that you are doesn't get to the root of it. You don't have to feel beautiful. You just need to accept yourself, and that's the greatest love you can give yourself. At least, that's my take

[@mayochupenjoyer]

ballet dancer here, and the pressure to be thin and/or fit in the dance world is astronomical. even though i’m not a professional yet, i know how much pressure professionals receive from their jobs. it’s not much like easier in the pre-professional world either- i’m not plus sized by any means but i’m definitely not skinny, but dancing in front the mirror for multiple hours a day and being expected to critique yourself does not help with body image. although my journey towards a healthy body image isn’t over, i have realized that i feel better about myself when i say, “look at all these cool dance things i can do with this body,” rather than only dwelling on how thin i am

[@ericcartmann]

skinny people are just more beautiful and thats the hard reality. Ballet is a work of art.. it would be gross to see a bunch of fatties hoping around. ew

[@juanmejiagomez5514]

I never quite understood this: does it help performance to be thinner and that’s why there’s a lot of pressure with it or is it just the expectations that the people involved put on the dancers?

[@ericcartmann]

@@juanmejiagomez5514 go watch fat ballot and compare it to thin ballet. Which one makes you wanna hurl?

[@juanmejiagomez5514]

@@ericcartmann What does hurl mean? Sorry English isn’t my first language Also fat and thin are not absolutes, but poles on a continuum. Of course fat people are not going to be as aesthetic but there’s a huge place in between where the weight is healthy and the person isn’t thin nor fat. Also I’m not into ballet, so I thought the appeal behind it was the beauty and control in the movement, and while I can see that being very fat would make it harder to discern certain movements, thus making it less desirable, I don’t understand what the incentive would be of being very thin while you could just be at your normal healthy weight

[@ericcartmann]

@@juanmejiagomez5514 hurl means throw up. Fat people are gross. STOP EATING SO MUCH HOLY SHIT.

[@neosr.1744]

To a certain extent we all care about how we look and specially publicly. For example, you don’t put in the same amount of effort into how you look in a day you’re going out compared to a day you’re staying at home all day. We want to see ourselves look beautiful that way we feel better with ourselves. Instead of trying to compare yourself to other people you consider pretty and creating a mindset that no matter what I do I’ll never be enough; try to do everything you can do to make yourself more comfortable with your body. At the end of the day you’ll be the one that stays with your body forever so making yourself more comfortable with it will help both your mental health and self love as well. Once again, nice video Olivia 💜

[@kelsey3576]

stop why did this make me tear up 😭this is good advice, ty

[@anonymouslearner2454]

Not *all* actually I don't know why it's so difficult to understand

[@morgannicholls4563]

Try

[@ems3991]

Please stop projecting your personal feelings onto everyone else. Not everyone is like you.

[@phyllismalachai9995]

this person said nothing wrong and their replies still found a way to make it negative💀

[@ray9047]

Personally this is the first time I've heard of body neutrality, but I've been kinda practicing it. If anytime I was thinking about how ugly I was, like hating my stomach or my hip dips I would remind myself they weren't created to please anyone else then myself, and my flaws doing their purpose pleased me. I never really thought it was a magical solution(same with body positivity) because it only works sometimes, body neutrality I just a solution when I'm insecure.

[@samsonquies7922]

That's the spirit, plus, hip dips and a belly are quite normal. Your body is just doing what it needs to do with what you give it. As long as you're okay with it yk?

[@catherine9847]

yes i agree. changing my mindset helps me be more happy with myself.

[@oof.cheerios294]

i try to weave body neutrality with small dosages of body positivity. on most days where I feel normal or not the best, I just remind myself that my body is still doing it job by keeping my alive and well. but on days where I feel especially good about myself, I found it doesn't hurt to compliment and feel yourself for a little while. it's all about balance.

[@MaBurro2112canal]

as a cis woman (slightly overweight) what i found soothing is the idea that there is no real standard beauty, my body is not ugly, because beautiful bodies don't exist

[@palemeadows]

so real

[@netteloveszebras]

Or that you can like your body without thinking that it’s “beautiful”

[@Solararisa]

Or the fact that people aren't all a monolith, so every one of us have different physical traits we may or may not find attractive in other people.

[@AllTheArtsy]

I love love love Ro's perspective because remember, Audre Lorde, when she said, "Caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it is self-preservation and that is an act of political warfare." was a Black, lesbian woman. That's why it was radical for her, because her life as a Black lesbian woman is not accepted, protected or prized. It is political warfare for her. Her self-love, her positivity (altho she did not use those terms) is not the burden that it now suddenly seems to be for people with acceptable, desirable, white-passing bodies. Of course neutrality or positivity do not spring from the same place, nor bring the same results, for different people.

[@limewigglingsnail9901]

To me, these are interchangeable. Having respect for your body, the job it does, the way looks, this is all just part of self love. I think functionality is beautiful. The ability to grow muscles, to store fat when we need to, to change with our current needs, fluctuations in hormones. It's all beautiful, because even with minor health issues, we're so amazingly well-adapted for the environment we're in. My problem is that there is a lot of focus on the issue behind "being beautiful" (attractive), when beauty is just inherently there. You're making that word seem superficial because that's how you're choosing to define it.

[@kookiesmj01]

THIISSS I was just thinking that. I feel you can’t really be body positive with be body neutral in some way. For example, if you are someone who loves and appreciates your body, Gaining weight wouldn’t make you happy or upset. You would understand that it happens sometimes and it inevitable. But still go out in a dress and feel pretty. I feel like it’s unrealistic to expect yourself to us be both positive and neutral all of the time. Or be one or the other all of the time. Especially since it’s a lot easier for someone who is more conventially attractive to be more body neutral or positive. Just because their worth will never be diminished because of their attractiveness. Like you said functionality is beautiful. The biology of our bodies is something to be celebrated. And I also think it is beautiful to be able to express yourself outwardly to make yourself in a way you find beautiful. I think beauty allows to be grateful about the things in our life. However It’s also important to be bloated after a meal and not think about it. Or have acne on your period and know it’s hormones and move on. It’s all about balance. And it’s all about being what necessary to continue to respect yourself during moments of body negativity (which is inevitable). All that is apart of self-love. Because either way your worth as a person is never put on your body. But only elevated, in someways. Hopefully that makes sense, and thank you for writing this comment

[@empatheticrambo4890]

So I’m a cis straight man, and I’ve had the somewhat uncommon experience of having pretty bad body dysmorphia (I think I’m using the right term for it, it’s hard to research especially as a man and not fitting the classical ED narratives), so I’ve really benefited from this discussion. I usually practice the “acceptance” tool I learned in therapy to accept and embrace reality, and listen less to negative inner voices

[@Umbrellagasm]

Oh boy, I think you might be surprised how many cishet men have a whole pile of body dysmorphia steaming under the hood

[@nickherrera1041]

you are now gay sorry

[@asshole94]

straight men don't refer to themselves as cis anything. it makes it sound like you're a cissy, and there's no such thing as a straight cissy.

[@veglord_the_profane]

I don’t think it’s as uncommon as one might believe. I had such experiences too.

[@empatheticrambo4890]

@@veglord_the_profane you're almost certainly right - it is poorly documented and researched though, so I have a hard time knowing how common it is

[@rumaisakhan5583]

Tee noir’s video on this topic was amazing “PLEASE Let me be a basic B in peace” it’s basically her saying I think I’m not attractive and why is that such a bad thing? I love that video so much it’s so well done.

[@TheDownestOfFoos]

The connection to romanticism and realism was absolutely mind blowing. Socially we are breaking down conscious ideas regarding multifaceted aspects of life perspectives consistently.

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

As someone who has never cared about my own or other people's appearence, I see this as an absolute win. I think best version of body positivity is - it's okay to want to be beautiful, but it's also okay to not be beautiful as long as you take care of your health and well being and don't sacrifice it for the sake of your appearence.

[@silverheartyay1482]

I love how you never dissmiss any of these ideals or mindsets, or paints one of them as the ”bad one” and ”good one”. U just explore these ideas so openmindedly and with so much respect and curiosity. I loved this. U rock. ❤️

[@vdemarzo2375]

I’m a trans man who just started my medical transition and although I don’t think true body neutrality is possible for many trans ppl, I do think it’s possible to adopt some of the ideals. Like I don’t look at my chest when it’s not as flat as I want and think “It’s so ugly I hate it” I think smthn like “This isn’t something that serves me and I wish I didn’t have it, but how can I work with it to feel as comfortable as I can?” Which has honestly helped me alleviate my dysphoria is a lot of ways. I’ve found that I do have so much respect for the body I have, it just doesn’t fit me correctly and that’s just how it’ll be until it changes. This mindset has saved me from crippling body image issues that used to absolutely rule my life.

[@thequeertelope7941]

[@semicolon.advocate]

that seems like a really healthy mindset :))

[@balls__-]

I like this mindset, I'm going to start applying it to my own life and see if it helps me as a trans man myself

[@vdemarzo2375]

@@balls__- That’s awesome, it’ll feel super fake at first but after you correct yourself a lot (even sometimes making yourself say it out loud) you’ll hopefully start to see a big change in how you naturally think abt yourself. That’s at least what happened with me. Best of luck to you, man!

[@FeyPax]

Exactly that. I relate as a nb person with dysphoria.

[@yuhyuh1471]

Also stop reading the comments. Its having a bad effect on your mental health. I have been reading a few of these and it quickly turns into an obsession to scroll past the nice comments and find the bad ones just to debunk them, and thats not practical or healthy. With love, Tim.

[@bingbong6323]

tysm. literally need to sleep lmao. my family was right about me loving debates too much jfgnvgj

[@yuhyuh1471]

@@bingbong6323 for real, I was having a problem too

[@idiot_rat]

You can’t stop me, Tim.

[@leonietrzeba6778]

thank you, tim :) good reminder

[@antibinary3782]

thank u tim :(

[@katphat]

I loved watching this video, please keep up the amazing work on these video essay discussions. Thinking about body imagery as art history was mind blowing for me, seriously LOVED that piece of this video. And the interviewees were so good about shaping almost “directly impacted” individuals with much more compelling relationships to body imagery than myself. This is my fave video you’ve done yet, gold star, 10/10, will be watching again.

[@em095]

I moved through the spectrum of body neutrality during my recovery from a restrictive eating disorder. It allowed me, for the first time in years, to see the world from the perspective of simply a person rather than a body if that makes sense. I was quite extreme in it at first, wearing only loose fitting clothes, avoiding mirrors etc, but eventually starting to shift towards clothes that I felt good in, even if they weren't particularly loose. I see body neutrality as body acceptance, I look like this, I'm not gonna try to change it, I might not like it all the time, but it is what it is

[@AnelimMCO]

i honestly think the term "body positivity" has had a change in meaning in the passage of the years. it was not that much about "you gotta love your body!!!" and more "you can love your body even if it doesn't fit the standards"/"you don't need to care about your body image that much" etc

[@daxellle]

I thought so too, I didn't know that the term "body positivity" changed so much and now means seeing your body as some sort of ornament. I thought the term meant, Appreciating and/or loving your body in spite of flaws and/or accepting those flaws. You still love/like your body but not to a sense where you see yourself as a decoration or an ornament. But I mean, body neutrality truly is more of an individual thing. Meaning that it depends on the person, y'know like what they went through and such, or how they're currently feeling about themselves. The same goes for body positivity. But my preference, for my body, is that you don't always have to love your body every day, and you don't have to feel apathetic/neutral about your body every day either. There'll always be days when I'll feel much more attractive and there'll be days when I look unattractive or even plain. And I can live with that, not having to love my body every moment and not being neutral about it all the time either.

[@SLYKM]

I never got the sense that it meant "you gotta love your body;" at any point. The only thing that kinda says that is when overweight people loose weight or try to be healthy and others see it as "so you did care that you were fat all along!" As if someone can't love who they are and change at the same time. I think people miss the point when they try to pinpoint what it is what it isn't. They are ideas first, but if someone finds it useful, they should use it for their benefit and how they need it to work. You can't be neutral about your body without appreciating it (positivity) and you can't be positive about it without accepting it (neutrality). You can say the "my body is a tool that just is," which I think is a form of apathy, but if that works then all the power to such a person in which that works for them. The meaning didn't change, it's just existing in a world with it being co-opted and used as a way to criticize people. These were side effects not the actual meaning. Does that make sense? Idk

[@haybails4876]

During the "narcissist" section, you put into words exactly how I've been feeling about myself. I'm autistic, and I've never really cared about social norms or whether I was pretty or not to other people, I cared if I was pretty to myself. I lost that for a bit, but I've recently regrained my idgaf energy and have created a beautiful self-portrait that communicates who I am through clothes, makeup, jewelry, and shoes. People can know me and I don't even have to say a word, an autistic dream.

[@alwaysnamjooning1899]

Fellow autistic person here, I love this comment.

[@sofiakayano7523]

omg I totally relate to this!!!! since accepting my neurodivergent ass, the way I dress has become 100% me, I could not give a bigger fuck about what other people think of my clothes bc they are not the ones wearing them!!

[@youngproblem5232]

sameee!! I'm not sure if I'm autistic (I have had multiple family members and friends say they think I might be so I am currently on a self diagnoses journey because I do not have the ability to get an actual diagnoses) but I do believe I am somehow Nerodivergent in some way from the research I have done and such, and I have always had a weird relationship with clothing because I want to look nice for myself but I need to be comfortable but I also want to appear "normal." If I had the confidence for it I would definitely have a very eccentric style and the idea of people being able to know me without having to say anything sounds amazing and terrifying lol

[@SLYKM]

I should try that, tho I have no idea how to talk through clothes and style.

[@naolucillerandom5280]

Not autistic (probably), but GOALS.

[@noaburr]

It's a shame you weren't able to get some disabled peoples' perspectives because the trans perspective was SO good and varied. I really enjoyed hearing what everyone had to say despite already being familiar with the discussion as a trans person myself. I would've loved to hear some members of the disability community offer their perspectives as I'd imagine there's more variety across different kinds of disability. I haven't finished the video yet as I'm commenting but I'm enjoying it so much more than I expected to.

[@kellymitchell2106]

Woah this video was WAAAAY more in depth than I thought it would be and I loved it! I thought it was just going to be another ranting influencer, but you are so thoughtful and provided great information!!! I’ll definitely check out more of your videos! Great work!

[@blackborealis]

I'm a cis, mostly straight dude and I've dealt with body issues as long as I can remember. I was always bigger, and at one point hit over 40bmi. I lost a bunch of weight 7 years ago and it was life changing, but have since gained a fair amount back. Recently I've found I've been struggling with my self image again. I think the focus on function over form is something I found on my own as a coping mechanism to try and not fixate on things I don't like. To me it's not a mindset, but a practice. Kind of like in CBT, questioning those negative self-thoughts and being thankful for the abilities you have.

[@aspoon4801]

@@flex1945 how did you even get here, I don't understand, and to get to a video this early you must be subscribed too?? Like??

[@Rami-el]

your just straight vro

[@blackborealis]

@@flex1945 lol, I mean I am trying, but come on dude

[@ale.6195]

I'm a cis, straight male too. I struggled with my self-image too, mostly because of what people said about my body. I've always fit the beauty standard in most places. Being fit, skinny, tall, etc. But at the same time, those compliments are what made me struggle with my self-image. I often don't wear shirts (I get hot extremely easily and I generally feel more comfortable without one.) and when I look down and see my stomach poking out, my image of myself gets extremely bad. I've gotten to the point where I feel fat when I see myself like that. Like I'll lose the support of my wife and friends because I'm no longer attractive. I've gone to the point where I didn't eat for over a day to get my stomach back to normal. I tried to force myself to eat during that time and ended up getting sick because of it. Throwing up, feeling like my stomach was going to pop, etc. I didn't really write this to complain, but to give perspective on someone who felt disgusting despite being seen as attractive. Also, I don't think fat people are ugly btw. Reading what I wrote back made it seem like that was what I was implying. I'm not changing it though because I want what I wrote to remain as genuine as possible.

[@joa3634]

Maybe try a lifestyle change and what i mean by that is eating low calorie dense foods that keep you full (such as fruits,vegetables, high protein foods with low calories) and try exercising as well it doesn’t need to be much, you can run,Cycle, swim or just go for a walk (remember exercising for even 5 minutes a day is always better than not working out at all) Lastly you should focus on keeping weight off so it doesn’t matter if you only lose let’s say 0,5 pound per week or less, that’s alright if you just keep the weight off instead of losing a lot of weight fast and Then gaining it all back

[@Blue_Alien]

You're amazing, thank you for keeping my depressive brain functioning and making me company when I'm lonely

[@imaginarydrummer]

This is the best video on this topic. The content transcends just body positivity or neutrality because you covered a myriad of topics, especially including how these issues effect human rights and equality in real life; not just our own perceptions of ourselves. Many good points were made.

[@dreamydratini]

trans perspective, my body has always been something alien to me. i've always felt a huge pressure to pass because of my families want for me to assimilate into "looking the part." after separating myself from brainwashing from my family i finally realized that i just wanted to match beauty inside of myself. it's hard for me to separate the need to be "perfect." as an asian trans femme who has to use their appearance to survive i feel like it is a burden sometimes for me to play into being hyper femme all the time, but i really don't have a choice right now. >_> my looks feel like a mask to hide all the ugliness i've experienced because of gender. when i was young i got heavily bullied of for looking "feminine" and being too skinny when all i was doing was existing as an asian amab. so it was really strange going into transitioning and finally being "desired," but now looking back a lot of it was fetishization for being asian & trans. it's a lot of weird shit, anyways yeah lol i hope this gives you more perspective :)

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

Rei youve literally perfectly described into words what i think and for that i aplaud you I WANT TO BE SEEN AS WHO I AM FROM THE INSIDE, I WANT MY PERSONALLITY TO SHOW ITSELF IN THE FISICAL FORM, I WANT SO HARD TO NOT BE SEEN AS HOW MY FISICAL FACE LOOK BUT TO BE SEEN IN THE LENCES OF WHO I AM Like you said I want to match the beauty that i have inside, not to necesarally look better, but to fit the way i look into who i am, and its soo hard because altering your body is dificult and society will look at us and even if they dont call us names it will be weird, i hope theres a future where human modifications become so advanced that our bodys can be however we want them to be but until them we will have to resist and see what works Also im not trans, and not even ugly but i want to look like who i am, and my face doesnt fit who i am inside

[@user-fv8ob4dv6b]

The thing I’ve thought about always is that people will always find certain body types/features beautiful and that is inevitable. We all say ‘everyone’s beautiful’ but deep inside we know we all have an ideal body which we want. Even if we force the trend that ‘every body is beautiful’ people will, always, internally find someone more beautiful than the other. It’s not even about being hourglass, it’s simply about what a person’s ideal type is. Some people prefer tall model-like girls while some prefer short girls. Some prefer dainty bodies while some prefer thick. Visual judgement will never go away, so it’s better to enforce the idea that ‘looks are there, but who cares?’. Someone can be pretty but the world shouldn’t care about their beauty, it should focus on who they are as a human. Beauty should be just what it is, beauty. Not a factor determining who’s better than who.

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

Humans are hard wired to find things appealing anyone who denies that your average human is hard wired to find things appealing like that is well just being disingenuous

[@emisunflowers]

Your channel is very quickly becoming one of my favorites. Thank you for your thorough insight, research, and thoughts on everything you provide in your content.

[@heathercameron1485]

My personal interpretation of body neutrality is that it's the natural result of both love and hate. There are things I like about my body and there are things I don't like, meaning overall I am pretty neutral. My body is what it is. I do my best to look after it, but I also accept I will never be 100% satisfied.

[@mochasucculent]

I think a lot of body issues, at least in my case, stem from the expectation of value. If I'm consumable visually to other people, then my body inherently has value to them and by extension, to myself. Having an attractive body serves a purpose that benefits me. Self-confidence, the ability to attract a romantic partner, etc. I think the concept of body neutrality can also feed off this, it only shifts the narrative from the form to the function. "I like my legs because they help me run" doesn't even feel neutral -- my legs are still providing a service to me that I find beneficial. So what happens if my legs stop working, or if I age and stop seeing the benefits from having an attractive body as a whole? What does it mean for others who will never be able to reap those societal benefits because they inherently don't fit what we're taught is the "ideal"? Both interpretations I think suffer from the rise in consumerism. It's almost like we have to be marketable products ourselves in order to be seen, heard, loved, or even feel like we deserve any of those things. There's anxiety in every stance: trying to obtain that marketability, knowing you never will, or having it but knowing one day you won't. When our appearance is so deeply tied to how others value us and how we value ourselves, we are in a constant state of dissatisfaction and discomfort. There's no winning. I've always hated my cheeks, and sometimes have deep self-deprecating thoughts about them being too fat or making my proportions look strange and undesirable. I struggle to find value for myself in the way my face looks. But then I remember how my mom said the first thing she noticed about me when I was born was my big cheeks, and the joy she felt when she kissed my face for the first time. The value she sees in my face is not one of benefit or beauty or function, but of love and connection. My mom would never hate my cheeks regardless of what they look like, because what's important is that they belong to a person she loves. I'm not sure what you would call that interpretation, but it feels different to me than body positivity or neutrality. My body allows me to be here and experience love, friendship, joy. Even if it might be easier or more comfortable to find those types of things in an abled, skinny, "desirable" body, everyone is able to experience the positive sensations of existing because they have a body to exist in. That's maybe getting into another topic, but it helps to think that the way my body looks is entirely inconsequential to some of my best experiences. If I get too self-conscious, I remind myself that my body's appearance don't impact the way I feel sun or hear a friend's laughter or taste good food. It helps me exist to feel that joy and sometimes that's enough. Thanks for another solid and thought-provoking video!!

[@remi4610]

I loooovvvvvvveeeeee this perspective!!!

[@ch0rkie]

I think this is the solution! I love your perspective. Thank you for sharing.

[@MilaBelen]

Oh, how I LOVE deep people like you. Wish there were more..

[@globisdead]

This was so beautiful to read!!

[@semicolon.advocate]

"my mom would never hate my cheeks regardless of what they look like, because what's important is that they belong to a person she loves" ahhhh I love that idea so much! I've noticed a similar pattern in my way of thinking that's been extremely helpful to my own self-image. when I look at the people I love, it's /impossible/ for me to think of them as ugly because I love who they are as a person so deeply. like if I look at my friend who has a lot of acne, I don't think "huh they sure do have terrible skin," I think "hey look it's my friend!! I love looking at their face because it's their face and I love them!!" their objective physical traits barely even register to me, because that's not what I'm thinking about when I look at them, I'm thinking about how meaningful our relationship is and how much I care about them when I get to feeling insecure about my own body, it helps to remind myself that the people who love me are probably viewing me the same way. they don't look at me and think about my physical flaws, or probably even my physical characteristics in general. they think about me as a person and how much they love me

[@pandinus1377]

I find myself closer to body neutrality, i never understood how body positivity would actually positively affect you when to me a lot of it seemed very surface level and in some cases delusional

[@fried920]

what parts felt delusional?? just curious. :-)

[@pandinus1377]

@@fried920 we can disagree with how white centric our current beauty standards are but we can't completely disregard them and some people just have to settle with the fact that they arent beautiful/ perfect yet and that they should try to improve firstly in their stylistic choices. That and obesity, obesity isnt beautiful, ill support curvy models or thick models but i dont support treating obesity as just an accessorial trait and not an issue. Ps i dont know how any of this affects trans people as i am an humble italian and ive never met one trans person in my life

[@matilde_5]

@@pandinus1377 Perché per le persone trans è più difficile avere un aspetto che sia in linea con il loro genere Tipo una donna trans potrebbe cercare di vedere il proprio corpo in una lente positiva pensando alla sua femminilità, ma a meno che la sua transizione non sia completa al 100% non potrebbe neanche fare quello. In generale le persone trans già al di fuori dell’essere attraenti o no partono in un corpo che è tutto tranne quello che vorrebbero. E in generale boh, forse cose simili.

[@pandinus1377]

@@matilde_5 ah grazie, in generale penso questo si leghi con body dismorphia ma posso capire che per un trans in alcuni casi sia meglio iniziare ad accettarsi perchè per loro essere esattamente come vogliono è sicuramente molto più complicato

[@matilde_5]

@@pandinus1377 Mhm- Comunque credo sia più disforia di genere, non dismorfia La disforia di genere è qualcosa di più tipico delle persone trans e ha a che fare appunto col genere, la dismorfia è una cosa più generale e ha a che fare con l’aspetto in sé.

[@ChefBug]

my new favorite youtuber. they talk in a way I can get what they say. love this

[@witchyboyy]

Going off the section of the video talking about trans people starting to normalize their appearance instead of shifting towards appearing hyper fem/masc, I've noticed throughout my transition other trans masc people feeling more comfortable not binding and wearing clothes that display their chests. I think that this is amazing and I'm happy people are able to start normalizing that some trans dudes have chests

[@enochturnal_]

As someone who's nonbinary and considering modeling again, Rue Yi provided really good insight about the discomfort of agonizing over presentation around people who don't know you and don't see you as nb, versus the people who do. In fact, each of the trans interviewees really hit the nail on the head about how passing impacts self-perception, and influences both gender presentation and socialization. Since I'm afab, I grew up bullied for my appearance until I presented more femininely, and experienced 'pretty privilege' in how people treated me. After coming out as nonbinary and presenting differently, it's a struggle to choose between being perceived as hot in the only way society seeks (feminine), and being perceived as nonbinary. Passing is a lot tougher when there is no cis counterpart goal to pass as. My trans guy best friend once tried to help by saying "sometimes in order to pass, you just have to accept looking worse'. I wasn't jazzed, can't lie lmao It's an uphill battle to ping pong between the goalposts of passing, being perceived as attractive, viewing my own body positively, and accepting the negative parts. Just like the whole topic of body image, there is no simple one-step answer, I guess. Anyways, this video was a fun watch, and was real insightful-- it was really nice to see trans voices centered for a fair bit of the video, and the analogy to art history was baller!

[@thequeertelope7941]

This is so well put

[@avocadoll7285]

I’m trans nonbinary and recovered from an eating disorder. I first learned body neutrality through my ED recovery, long before I knew I was trans. Body neutrality helped me have a better relationship with my “cis” body because I learned to accept it for what it was. But as I started to transition, body neutrality felt really confusing because I held the belief that I should accept myself no matter what I looked like, and this was incongruent with my desire to be less gender dysphoric. Sometimes body neutrality feels like a statement that we shouldn’t change our bodies at all because we just shouldn’t care how they look. This doesn’t always work for trans people who do sometimes need to make changes in order to be their truest self. It’s confusing. I still don’t know whether or not I want top surgery because I am stuck between wanting to accept my body as it is and wanting society to perceive my gender correctly. Lots of nuance here for sure

[@bananasmatter1321]

Don't do top surgery. You'll regret it and it's something you'll never get back.

[@stellathemusician]

@@bananasmatter1321 youre disgusting.

[@rat-gang-]

@@bananasmatter1321 not only do you not know this person at all, so you can't definitively say whether they'll regret it or not, but breasts are literally one of the easiest parts of the body to modify considering both reductions and implants are so widely available. goober. keep your weird opinions to yourself

[@billcipher8645]

@@bananasmatter1321 I don't think it's your place to be "sure" that the person will regret it. Besides, you can get it back with implants? Sure, it's not the same but it's not irreversable. Many trans men, non binary folks and even cis women experienced getting top sugeries and I think the best way to get an idea if it's really worth it is to talk to people in similar situation to the OP and their experiences. It's all up to the individual and there are probably just as many people happy with their decision as there are those who regret it (if you have a statistic showing otherwise please let me know, I'd love to get educated)

[@TR-ru7wl]

Good comment. Also ignore the other guy you should do top surgery if you want to.

[@cielrobinson]

i'm nonbinary and 5'0"- ive accepted that i'm never going to pass as anything but female even at a distance because of my height and soft face. its a fucking bummer, but since i figured that out, i stopped trying to offset my build & features by avoiding any/all feminine clothing and makeup. and i'm now actually doing whatever the fuck i want with how i look for the first time in my life. i'll get misgendered anyways. i'm too burnt out to correct everyone all the time, if i talk with someone new more than a couple times i'll clarify my pronouns, and if they've got a problem with it, i dont need them in my life. so far it's been fun growing out my hair (so long as i keep the sides shaved) for the first time since i cut it short at 13. and my boyfriend and i both have been enjoying the occasional dresses. being able to show more skin has been awesome this summer

[@thechumbucket8986]

not to be weird but I'm rlly happy for you

[@bluehats1]

Body neutrality helped me much more than body positivity. With body positivity, I was on a rollercoaster, but for body neutrality, it was a more steady flow of being okay with my body. It's different for everyone, but I felt horrible about my body, so body neutrality was more achievable than positivity.

[@sanninlegends1843]

I could just go a whole day listening to Olivia speak. Like, she's so intuitive, knowledgeable and informative.

[@ericcartmann]

I just watch cause she's hot. most of what she says is kinda retarded.

[@felix-fw3lq]

gahhh this is such an interesting topic!! as someone with chronic pain and tourettes, it often feels like my body is working against me, so body neutrality is a mindset thats very hard for me to achieve when i often cant help but hate my body for hurting me and being messed up for no reason. also, even though it often does more harm than good, i do love body positivity. like i love feeling pretty and i love the thought that my body is a canvas and pretty outfits and cool makeup the art. (although maybe im a little biased bc i have a special interest in fashion lol) so yea it was definitely very interesting to hear your take on this. great video !!! :)

[@kiwo579]

yooo lower back pain and tics fuck yeah man i dont know the last time i wasnt feeling as if i was constantly being stabbed in the back with a bunch of knives

[@felix-fw3lq]

@@kiwo579 yeesh that sucks so bad dude omg :( my chronic pain is in my hands and wrists which really sucks cuz i need to use my hands to do a lot of stuff obviously and its hard when it feels like theyre about to spontaneously combust yknow? i def understand how you feel, its really shitty

[@Miipmiip]

Yeah, I love the idea of body neutrality but I hate the idea that it’s all marketed as “I love my body because it works the way it should” when it a lot of times comes with variations of varying severity

[@respectable-username]

I feel that. Feels like maybe the "instrument" that is my body and brain are defective and I must overcorrect where I can. Especially since it was neglect that resulted in this. Like I had a chance, but the body is such a one-time vessel, and it was broken too early to serve me fully.

[@respectable-username]

@@Miipmiip ykw your comment made me realize how a lot of these ideologies to cope with self image issues are super ableist. Like the reach to say that dysphoria isn't a mental illness or disorder of some kind, and rather is just some sort of choice. Which ends up being super misinformative, harming Trans people, as well as being super weirdly averse and rude in regards to the concept of someone being mentally ill or disordered- as if they are disgusted with mentally ill/disordered people and don't want to be associated with them.

[@ericahickman5776]

In my opinion, I believe that you should do whatever works for you and makes you happy. If body positivity makes you feel confident and happy, great! And if body nuetrality makes you feel content, confident, and happy, great! I don't think either method is "one size fits all." Just do what works for you! Everyone is different, and that's the "beauty" of the world in itself!

[@gaya333.]

I love the way u combined the interviews into just the essential parts n how u reiterated what they said 😌 n the diversity of the peoples perspective ~chef's kiss ...really helped me understand a lot

[@dsarah60]

In terms of privilege: Dont forget rich people. Because they can just buy an expensive wig, get just a tiny bit of filler from the best of the best surgeons. In that situation it is also easy to say "Well I look proportionate, there is nothing to worry about my body."

[@lillianjensen1139]

As someone who isn't fat or skinny (I used to use the term midsize but it seems very confusing now), I find body neutrality super helpful, because body positivity was always focused around either fat people or skinny people, but very rarely (if ever) people in between. So thinking about my body and what it can do, or what it provides me helps a ton to be okay with the size and shape of my body. Especially in the last two years, as I have gained weight and my body has gotten bigger, I have really had to work to figure out ways that I can be more comfortable in my body. Trying to convince myself that I'm more beautiful because of my weight gain has never worked. So just being compassionate to myself and focusing on loving myself instead of loving my body has helped me a lot to deal with body image.

[@phosphenevision]

as someone who struggled with disordered eating, what people describe as body neutrality now was basically my healing proccess. i definitely think body positivity is unrealistic, specially in cases where people have really distorted or perfectionist perceptions of themselves, neutrality helps you somewhat detach emotionally from these perceptions which creates space for healing and focusing on other aspects of your life.

[@thevioletcabinet]

I think body neutrality should first aim to rid the idea that women, especially trans women and women of colour, only have worth if they are beautiful. Body positivity as a movement aims to work within this patriarchal ideal instead of challenging it, which is why I think a lot of people hate it as a movement. It focuses on the individual submitting them self to an eventual societal perception of beauty, hoping that one day the community that surrounds them will catch up to include them in the beauty standard, just as their favourite influencer or inforgraphics account has. That’s why it was so easily co-opted by brands - the idea that you too can fit the standard and love yourself if they buy this certain product has been the basis of marketing in the beauty industry for decades. While body neutrality is more realistic for many people than body positivity, a lot of the movement still focuses on the individual rather than the larger social issue. I do think if the next step is to be the equivalent of abstraction, we have to combine some of the ideals of body positivity and body neutrality. You can love your body and wish to be aesthetically appealing, while also accepting that a prettier person and an uglier person should hold the same worth. The fact that women are not taken seriously if they are not attractive particularly to men, that trans people are not treated fairly if they don’t pass and don’t fit the beauty standard, and that people of colour often only face ‘acceptance’ in the form of fetishisation, all comes down to the fact that our worth is dictated by the perception and appearance of our bodies. This should be the issue that is focused on, instead of expecting people who have lived under this all of their lives to view themselves neutrally.

[@evandien9947]

"I love my legs because they help me walk" I wonder what a disabled person might think of that lol, are they supposed to hate their legs because they don't work? Idk I certainly agree that neutrality is an improvement from positivity, but it certainly isn't the great fix that I was hoping for.

[@hinasakukimi]

it's just an example, there are other things you can think of to make it apply to you personally

[@Wubulixi]

The next step will be body transcendence by seeing the body as a void illusion like in Buddhism :D

[@notquitenile5677]

I’m chronically ill, and I totally understand what you’re saying. My illness affects most parts of my body, and I’ve found that most of the body neutrality mantras about how amazing our bodies are can’t really apply to me. I also feel like viewing my body as neutral doesn’t really help me in an ableist society. For me, “all bodies are beautiful” refutes ableist beauty standards much more than neutrality.

[@haichoi8799]

mm my legs don't work like they "should". I could barely walk earlier today but i don't hate my legs. I hate my joints. It's odd but i see my joints as something different to my legs. Joints = Bad. Legs = Fine. Idk if that makes sense but it's how i coped. And i don't rly agree that neutrality is an improvement from positivity. I've found some love for my legs, in exchange for my joints, in how they look. Neutrality isn't the next step. It's just another step to the side of positivity. We must use both tools in my opinion.

[@morningglory3441]

@@notquitenile5677 Very well said! I totally agree. Body positivity was originally created by and for disabled people. Often, the ableism we face going through the world in a disabled body doesn't afford us the privilege of being able to simply not think about our bodies. To me, body positivity is in no way about focusing on appearance; it's about *feeling* like your body is beautiful, regardless of whether or not it meets conventional beauty standards.

[@maram8073]

Can we just talk abt how much effort Olivia puts in her videos and how in depth and informative they are? Like girl- 😩

[@marlenkonig6794]

What I was questioning myself as you were talking about fashion (and how we sometimes aim to make our bodies look pretty), is if we could look at it as some sort of canvas, wich is neither perceived as "Good-looking" or "not good-looking". Because we have to paint it before it becomes something one can assess, so the value we give our look is not linked on the body itself, but on the way we used it as a "base".

[@oozetin]

hearing the idea of ✨ seeing the body as an instrument not an ornament✨ for the first time makes me feel kinda gross as a disabled person. it evokes the type of stuff I feel like body neutrality requires understanding that is false to make sense as a concept. as a phrase it's still too focused in finding the value in physicality imo. one of the things I like about body neutrality is the fact that sometimes my body is neither an instrument nor an ornament - it's just there. sometimes I can't move and Perform Tasks but my body doesn't stop being valuable in that moment. and even then, trying to value in the body is a little high-minded as a concept if you're struggling to move, eat, and go to the bathroom.

[@noeaeon]

I think neutrality can function as a gateway to positivity. It filters or allows you to process and thus neutralize the negative to some degree, so that maybe you can see the romantic, the beautiful, even the comical, and the sublime.

[@bumbleteaxiv7042]

but does it have to do that? cant one just feel neutral about their body without attaching anything to it?

[@user-wj2ii1qd7b]

@@bumbleteaxiv7042 Total neutrality is impossible. As humans we always strive for more in something and or anything. Your brain might be acceptive and me tutela to yourself, but your emotional and irrational mind will always strive for more than neutrality.

[@bumbleteaxiv7042]

@@user-wj2ii1qd7b and what if i dont want that? why should neutralities function lead into positivity when there *are* things about my body that i dont feel should even be positive? i dont want to be positive about my partial deafness, i dont want to see the romance in my early onset arthritis or brittle bones. theres none there. id rather be neutral about it (“it exists and makes my life debilitating, but its okay.”)

[@ale.6195]

@@bumbleteaxiv7042 I don't want to see the romance in my experience with something similar to an ED. I don't want to see the romance in My Schizophrenia. I don't and never will see the beauty of my body dysmorphia. There is no beauty in my arrhythmia. But despite all of my issues, I can still use body neutrality to find the good in my body. It doesn't have to lead to body positivity, but if you want to work on loving *you*, it's a great start.

[@grandkhan9261]

@@user-wj2ii1qd7b That's true, but that doesnt mean that you shouldn't try to be as neutral as you can. That's what I've been doing for years and it definitely helped me feel balanced and happy with who I am. I guess I can also focus my emotional mind on stuff like "positives of being ugly" (like hey, at least I can walk the street without fear of cat calling/harassment !) to avoid delving back in insecurity too much. Something being impossible to achieve doesn't mean striving for it will not bring you anything

[@kyravanessaso]

Can't wait to hear your thoughts because this is something that I've been curious about. I've always struggled with body image and self worth (for as long as I've been aware that I had a body) and I enjoy learning about all of the "solutions" and their shortcomes or downfalls.

[@valenesco45]

...or you should go to a psychologist and reach some professional help for your insecurities rather than finding silly madeup shortcuts on the internet.

[@valenesco45]

@Dundrael who says that? It's surely better to try it than following idiotic teenager advices on tiktok.

[@kyravanessaso]

@@valenesco45 I do seek weekly professional help from a psychologist and I am very fortunate that is an option available to me. I am working through my insecurities and I am not prescribing to any simple internet solutions, which is why I dont have Tiktok, etc and I hold everything I hear with a grain of salt, for lack of a better word. However, I find it valuable to see others experiences and bring in those questions to my therapist. Thank you for your advice!

[@pichiro5420]

Work out, meditate and journal your days with gratitude i think thats the path

[@cokesloth]

@@valenesco45 fr

[@emilyely9043]

I just love your account, you’re so well spoken and I could watch these videos everyday.

[@noneofurbeezwax251]

Dear Olivia, You are amazing! This work is so needed! I need it, other people need it, keep doing what you're doing! ❤

[@goblinfolk]

body neutrality should’ve stayed at “lets talk less ab bodies” but its circling back to obsessive body commentary and im just so tired of it edit : also when you mentioned body commenting in chinese culture. its the same in eastern europe 😭 its quite literally the soul reason of my current body struggles

[@hopefulromantic.]

but it's definitely sm better than body positivity. body neutrality ask u to find the strenght other than your body, and give u the mindset of "my body is the least important thing about me"

[@painismyfavoritecolor8927]

Once you resolve your own issues around bodies the obsessive talk will not get under your skin anymore. The same as resolving any of your other issues, it will just be a passing blip. People talk about it because its an issue that's festering societally. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room; but your point is also valid (solution-oriented).

[@goblinfolk]

@@painismyfavoritecolor8927 im not saying its bad to talk about it esp these days when its a big problem. but it all the talks we keep having always circle back and its tiring. we had a great start w body positivity and it became toxic so now we have body neutrality. it just seems pointless

[@friendly.felidae]

I’m disabled and chronically ill and I have to say body neutrality is hard. My body is constantly failing me in things that able bodied people do with ease. It is an extreme uphill battle to make it do the things I need it to. That makes it so so hard to see it as an instrument, at least a useful one, when I am constantly fighting it. I did used to have a body that was physically attractive but over time it no longer is due to disability and also acne caused by covid a couple months ago that just refuses to go away so it can’t really be an ornament either? I’m also NB which doesn’t help but regardless I feel like both of those movements only are useful if you already fit into the box they were made for and the real solution has to come from finding a way to change the system.

[@shane0716]

I laughed really hard at the As It Was soundclip. also recently discovered your channel. it's refreshing to hear and see the younger generation discussing important topics. gives me hope as a millennial.

[@juliettetrepanier7762]

This video is old but I've been on a binge of your content throughout today and I hope you manage to read this: you are so eloquent and thoughtful and not necessarily well-read (not saying you're not, just don't know you personally!) but well-researched and socially aware. Subscribed and looking forward to future content!

[@adamgillespie3393]

Valuing ur body as a tool is not necessarily healthier than valuing it as an ornament. I'm quite athletic and I'm constantly comparing my athleticism to others, sometimes I get very upset when I can't perform like others. I think proponents of this idea are just shifting their focus onto an ideal that they personally don't value. What I mean is: they subconsciously rank their "beauty" and see it as a toxic problem but they don't rank it as a "tool" subconsciously because it has never been something they've been competitive about. The fact is, if we start value our bodies as tools, we'll quickly start to compare ourselves to others in the same way. There has to be some sort of philosophy where accept comparisons without internalising them in a dangerous way. I haven't figured it out. Just transferring values from ornamental ones to utility-based ones doesn't work tho.

[@crassiewassie8354]

I honestly think we should just allow people to be body neutral and body positive if that makes sense Cuz I honestly couldn't care less about how physically capable I am. I might get winded pretty quickly while doing some of my favorite things but it's just not a big deal for me to be a perfect athlete. I enjoy doing HEMA partly because a lot of the road blocks in traditional martial arts just aren't there because you're not generally using your own athleticism to win though it can certainly help. I personally care much more about my ability to be beautiful to myself and to not be an eyesore to others. Than my ability to be fully functional. I know some people feel physical pain by just being in their body but I personally just dont feel that. I do however feel a whole slue of emotional and mental pain in being my self in terms of beauty and how I look mostly to myself. In conclusion if I can speak concisely I dont care about my physical preformance almost at all I care deeply to the point of driving me to some very dark places over my physical attractiveness and passability. I'm trans btw. Saying it doesn't matter how you look is basically saying you dont believe my problem is real or worthy of discussion. Being beautiful to me is being my true self. Someone I can look at in the mirror and feel proud of And i'm sure for some people rather than the mirror deciding how they feel about their body the amount of time it takes to get winded is what then matters. ya know

[@lunali7209]

found the comment i was searching for

[@nineteenfortyeight6762]

💯

[@monsoon4620]

she never said body neutrality was bad guys... i dont get this obsession of grilling people when you don't fully understand what they're trying to say.

[@spaceaster]

Body neutrality for me is less about finding happiness and more about being content with myself

[@lenkavejtrubova2304]

as trans guy the "my body is an instrument not an ornamet" is for me the worst part of body neutrality, like my gender dysphoria is not from how my body looks, but more of the "purpose"

[@JordanP.]

same dude

[@Vasilia4]

So your instrument is broken... Still doesn't make it an ornament

[@lenkavejtrubova2304]

@@Vasilia4 no its not broken I just don't want it

[@sharkawakaorb9220]

@@lenkavejtrubova2304 You said you were a trans guy so you don't want to be a guy anymore?

[@lenkavejtrubova2304]

@@sharkawakaorb9220 I've still haven't come out to anybody aside from one friend(and by this coment to strangers), so my body is still in its original state, and can't say i don't want do be guy as nobody knows I eaven am one

[@ShdwftheSuN]

Okay I was skeptical, especially when you missed a great opportunity to make a point with Sarte's "No Exit," but you got me with the section on the privilege of body neutrality and individual-centered movements. For those interested in phenomenology, definitely look up Deleuze's concept of multiplicity! Multiplicity, as opposed to thinking there is some one "essential" thing you are or should be, is radically freeing. Instead of denying or outright rejecting any realities about yourself, you accept all of them. So you are not "not" anything. You are your body's appearance AND your capabilities, and so much more. You are everything you were and can become too, because you are always changing. The only thing you are not is any *one* thing. Acknowledge your complexities through multiplicity---especially all the seeming contradictions like masculine AND feminine, short, tall, big or small AND beautiful, perfect AND flawed, etc---to let go of how you "should" be anything else, and you will find a way toward radical self-acceptance and self-love. After all, what is love in its purest form if not radically, unconditionally accepting something or someone in their totality, no matter what?

[@juleslai]

To be honest I think the only real “solution” is to just treat our body image the way we treat our self image in general. Meaning toxic positivity and body positivity aren’t the answer. But body neutrality isn’t either just like indifference and neutrality about the world and ourselves isn’t a solution. The only thing we can do on a personal level is incorporate gratitude, appreciation, and acceptance. Be grateful for the things your body can do, whether that’s superficial beauty or strength etc. Appreciate it in moments when you feel positive towards it. Because although no one can love their body all the time, most of us love it sometimes and when we do we can take in that love for the moment instead of beating ourselves up about being body positive. And then accepting any negative feelings we might have about our body. If it’s something we can realistically, and healthily change, then we can work towards that, for ourselves, whereas if it’s something we can never change, we can allow ourselves to feel that negativity for the moment and then release it. Instead of suppressing it and denying it. Let it be and let it go. We don’t need to then start loving those things we hate. But just like there are moments we focus on those attributes there are moments we focus on others that we actually like. So it’s just kind of a go with the flow of how you feel attitude. It’s okay to feel negative emotions sometimes, as long as we acknowledge them and release them. And it’s great to feel positive emotions sometimes, as long as we appreciate those moments and allow ourselves to be grateful for what we have. It’s the exact way we generally understand we should deal with our emotions. We don’t dismiss them as insignificant but we don’t force them to always be positive. Our emotions about our body are no different. It shouldn’t be a different discussion, body image and self image fall under one umbrella so why approach them differently? Especially when we already have an understanding of how we properly approach one of those.

[@guesswho5790]

Thank you for this. I needed to hear that. I struggle with my self-image more than body-image, and hearing it put that way... to just let the negative thoughts flow without holding on to them. Very inspiring, and I share the same sentiment about body-image. Only it seems easier to accept for me because it's something physical, tangible... I know what to do if I feel insecure about something one day in particular about my body, but not on the self-image part of things.

[@juleslai]

@@guesswho5790 I’m so happy that it helped you, I completely understand what you’re saying, most of us struggle to allow ourselves to feel negativity about ourselves or external situations. But it only ends up building up and hurting us more to deny it or fight it. It’s okay to be sad, it’s okay to be happy. Just feel how you feel when you feel it, and you’ll find it’ll go away much easier than if you fought against it and let it build up. Emotions are never permanent, so don’t let them overwhelm or scare you, they only have to be felt.

[@danieljohn4014]

Could you explain what part of body neutrality you find bad? thanks :)

[@juleslai]

@@danieljohn4014 personally I think it’s the same as toxic positivity and body positivity. It’s forcing yourself to feel a certain way all the time. That’s not realistic. Sometimes you’ll like yourself/ your body sometimes you’ll hate it. Sometimes you won’t think of it. I think a healthy attitude is to be able to accept the feelings when they come, and know that they’re not the end all be all of things. Learning to know that it’s okay to feel however you feel in the moment, so that you can feel it in a healthy way and let it go when it’s time. Body neutrality forces you to feel nothing about your body at all times. Or to feel indifferent. That’s not realistic, nor is it healthy.

[@shawnthefriendlymonster9480]

Absolutely 100% correct. Thank you for being so wise.

[@elimark717]

First of all I want to say I loved the video so much and all the people you brought in! I feel like I have a unique relationship to my own body as a trans man who spent his entire childhood identifying as a woman. I fit into the beauty standard for a lot of my childhood and the traits that would eventually give me the worst dysphoria were actually considered “beautiful”. My chest was actually so beautiful before top surgery and was well liked by anyone I was romantically involved with . But I never felt comfortable with it and once I realized I wasn’t a girl at 19, I realized my chest felt so foreign to me and in my mind, it wasn’t supposed to be on my body. And my chest became my #1 source of major gender dysphoria and my transition. It’s been so confusing navigating the world in terms of where I feel I’m supposed to fit and it definitely impacted my self image and how I viewed my body.

[@sarahgrant8874]

What you’re mentioning regarding how others perceive us, and how that will make us return to feeling self conscious on our bodies at times, is exactly why I went to zero social media four years ago. I have no regrets to this day and it’s improved my mental health drastically. I know it’s not for everyone, but it is what helped my journey to self-love.

[@Gonfyoself]

Not gonna lie, I've felt that body positivity made me lying to myself. Seriously. This is what I felt alot. And I figured out body neutrality which basically the acceptance of my own body and the whole function.. and thats savage.. what a life..

[@FullyOnVolks]

The part about a sprinkle of phenomenology was spot on. It relates to our collective consciousness. I know the video only came out 12 seconds ago, but I knew you were gonna talk about it.

[@charlesdesobry9446]

Our conscious relationship to our body is intrinsically phenomenological. Our body is a priori in the sense that it situates our place in the concrete world. We are always aware of our body in a multitude of ways, and our consciousness of our body is rooted in these basic modes of awareness

[@ogreer]

I love your delivery , both very succinct and calming :) thanks for the content!

[@atari_brotan]

Omg I was literally about to comment about No Exit when you said Sartre and then you pulled up with the play 😭😭 I love that play though it really made me think about how I’m perceived and how I perceive others

[@iwatchyoutube9425]

Every society and culture will inevitably have certain norms and values, no matter how much people try to make everybody else cater to their individual whims and needs. The best solution is that people recognize that others have a negative view of their body, that some bodies are superior to others in certain categories (strength, beauty, size), and to accept that. This isn't to excuse people making negative comments or insults toward somebody's body; a position of care and concern should be primary. This is just a call for the recognition that accepting and embracing suffering and strife, and rising above it is what brings purpose and meaning to life. There is more to life than fixating on your body.

[@IceQueen975]

This. We are all different with different advantages and disadvantages. Some we're born with, some we earn/work to get. It's better, imo, to do what you can with what you have. I think of a body like a temple that's already constructed. You can't change the fundamental structure, but you CAN decorate it nicely (aka wearing clothes you like) and keep it clean (aka hygiene and good health). And just... appreciate your hard work to have your "temple - however it is - look as nice as possible and work as best as it can.

[@lunali7209]

i get what ur saying but this is an unfair task. this "rise above your outer appearance" task isnt equally easy for everyone. some ppl wont ever take care of their looks and still be seen as attractive. certain groups (poc, disabled ppl, plus size etc) always get their desirability denied moreso than those who arent part of this group. ofc its easier to just "not care" anymore if u never were bullied, made fun of or targeted for ur looks like the groups i mentioned. on top of that lookism isnt just abt "feeling attractive" it literally affects material conditions in your life (look at south korea where "ugly" ppl get less chances to get picked at job interviews etc). desirability politics addresses this; that people treat u differently based on how conventionally attractive u are, beyond just "oh theyre hot".

[@Herosoyyo2]

I agree, and I find myself questioning the utility of these "movements" as such. It's great if their existence gives anyone a useful idea that helps them improve their life, but I think that's pretty much all they can hope to be good for. We each have to build as healthy a relationship with ourselves as we can, and that's an intensely personal part of life that YOU have to work on, no matter what. It's not gonna fit any particular template or ideology, and it can't be reduced to language either. Getting behind these banners like we've found the right idea among all the wrong ones seems like a surefire way to miss the point.

[@Herosoyyo2]

@@lunali7209 "Fair" is not part of the equation here. Nothing in life is equally easy for everyone; life isn't meant to be fair, it just is. There's only what you do with reality, and some things you can do seem to work better than others. People don't even choose to value good looks, it's inherent in our nature. We can refuse to accept that about as successfully as we can refuse to accept our own race or height.

[@salami7677]

@@Herosoyyo2 Life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that people on the short end of the stick should suffer. I think the "body positivity" movement, despite having MANY flaws, has the right intentions deep down; yes, some people aren't beautiful, but that doesn't mean that people who aren't beautiful should feel like they're less valuable or worthy. It just doesn't do us any favors to pretend that some things in society should just be accepted or can't change especially since a lot of beauty standards are rooted in racism, misogyny, ableism, etc. Which are social issues that humans have proven to overcome even in small steps. We should never settle for mediocrity just because "that's the way it is," humans are great and complex beings and we're capable of so much more!

[@ratbaggie476]

I'm glad you mentioned an artistic lens to body image. As a non-binary artist, I couldn't imagine viewing life without beauty. However, the beauty of bodies that I appreciate feels entirely separate from that of contemporary beauty standards. It feels abstract; like when I paint a figure, at a point I no longer see a body but instead a form that the light falls onto. I appreciate its curves, angles, colours, and shapes. I feel joy in viewing its uniqueness. In this way, I personally could never feel neutral about a body as each figure makes me feel something.

[@mstrotaku]

Thank you for working so hard on these videos! 🎉

[@sophiathedandilioness]

Love so much that you got Ro and Summer in on this 😍

[@miagasparovic3689]

I think body neutrality is more of a first step to self-love, instead of a whole lifestyle approach. Love and resolution come through acceptance, and body neutrality IS about acceptance. But, as it's a rather apathetic approach to your own self, I'd say staying too long in that state of mind wouldn't bring any benefits in the long run. We are much more than just a body, yet inevitably our bodies give us both possibilities and restrictions. They are a part of us, a part of our personality and character. So just like we want to work on accepting our character "flaws" and integrating them in a beneficial way, the same goes for our physical "flaws".

[@ojyochan]

"We shouldn't put the burden on individuals to heal their relationship with their body" who else can do it???

[@aspoon4801]

socity

[@aspoon4801]

jojkr

[@ojyochan]

@@aspoon4801 Society can't get in your head and fix your negative self-image

[@breakingboundaries3950]

@@ojyochan the negative self-image is a product of the standards society holds on the individual.

[@heaux2865]

@@ojyochan Think about it, as a young kid you don’t care about how your body looked in the mirror. As you grow up you eventually become subject to societal standards on what your body should look like, on how you can cater to people with your looks, on how you can “look better”.

[@bodyatwar]

Gosh! You are so well spoken and have have such a gift of communication! ❤ blown away!

[@fernando-loula]

I love your videos, please make more!!! It really helps me rethink many issues. I have been pretty body neutral all my life, being a not particularly good looking overweight white man it has been a comfortable solution. But I can see now how that is in the end of the day quite a priviledge, and I feel better about understanding it.

[@gemmaskye]

"Body positivity doesn't allow you space to process an insecurity" - so succinct and so true! Great insight.

[@dulcemariaoviedo123]

In my individual experience, I have just accepted that i will feel insecure matter what. After going through an ED I realized that putting all this pressure on myself was pointless. I am not a model or held to a standard so why am I caring so much? I am living as a diet machine and don't live anymore, am I willing to go through this way? and my answer was hell no! I am not going sacrifice my live hood for an image that I will never be satisfied with.

[@somesweetdreamm]

Yep this was exactly my thought process too!

[@ev2175]

I feel like both are the results of attempts to derive the most positive feelings possible to make oneself feel good or better than before. Happiness like that never lasts. Happiness comes and goes.

[@catsfuton]

such a great video Olivia. thank u for reaching out to ppl for interviews! it was so interesting to hear their thoughts. also where did u get ur shirt? it’s so pretty! 😭