Does God Exist? Proof for God's Existence with Gurdjieff's Ray of Creation

[@cathyacorn9416]

The key for me seems to be when, in a single sentence, he links the absolute whole (the biggest or most comprehensive) to the primordial state (the smallest or simplest). Is that coherent? “The Absolute, that is, the state of things when the All constitutes one Whole, is, as it were, the primordial state of things, out of which, by division and differentiation, arises the diversity of the phenomena observed by us.”

[@jackdarby2168]

prime means first right? primary, priority, principle..preliminary..what else? Anyway they signify that which is first. That can be proven through number theory. Before two can be there has to be one. One is necessary for two but not vice versa..this is one way to recognise dependence..if something depends on something else but that something else doesn't really depend on it..you can rest assured that that something is caue( the last cause in the four causes: material hyle, formal or idos in the Greek, efficient and last cause or purpose end or telos in the greek). So multiplicity is comes only after unity. When he says: "One whole" It's best not to associate this expression with something that's big...or even something that posses size for that matter. "Whole" is just another word for "complete" or something that doesn't lack anything really and this is what people called "God". "God" has come to be used inappropriately for eg. mostly by the Protestants they interject personal presuppositions into the notion of "prime mover"( the may not even believe in "prime mover" and they may not have entertainment the notion of "unmoved mover" simply because Aristotle is not Christian). Sometimes people use the word "one"( especially the capitalised version.."One") as symbol of "God". It's important to distinguish between "God" as "prime mover" and "God" as "unmoved mover" as they are not the same. And when one is used to suggest God as primemover then zero is used to indicate God as uncaused cause or "unmoved mover" as Aristotle called it. This expression "unmoved mover" is highly accurate; motion here is just translation of any change whatever ( generation, destruction, increase, diminution, alteration, and change of place). We also tend to define reality as: unchanging. In English today we use "motion" to express only the last sense of the term which is change of place. But "emotion" for eg. is also "motion" and I think it belongs to motion under the aspect of alteration( where that to which the alterations, eg. depression, anger, fear etc., is the person). Today Christians teach only "God" as "prime mover" but there are Christians who I heard taught that "God" as "unmoved mover"( Dionysis or pseudo Dionysis, the Areopagite for eg. if you are going to look this man up you might also want to look up the difference between apophatic and cataphatic theology..negative and positive theology).

[@bookclub5291]

I think that is the crux of what is being said. In Neoplatonic philosophy it would be considered the duality of the one and the many. There are many powerful sentences dotted throughout the book, of one has the eyes to see them! 🙏

[@cathyacorn9416]

@@jackdarby2168 Wow, thanks for all these tools you provide. I need to rethink this. I want to look up and learn more about several of these ideas, especially the four causes and the unmoved vs prime mover. These are helpful. In fact, it causes me to wonder whether energy is the unmoved mover, and the gods (“the acausal” ) are how we describe its action upon matter in personal terms.

[@cathyacorn9416]

@@bookclub5291 Thanks for posting this. It’s new & meaningful to me.

[@jackdarby2168]

@@cathyacorn9416 I know what you meant to say, you must I've meant "uncaused". "Accausal" is fancy term that silly people in the occult milieu use. In reality oder comes first then disorder begins ( law of entropy) but these people who use the word "accausal"( these expression...I don't know where you picked it up from...is used by odd people for eg. those who talk about "chaos" magic can be found using expression a lot. Don't go around looking for this kind of stuff or follow such people). Evidence of movement from oder to disorder is found in Genesis story. The common opinion on the happiest time in one's life is that it is the period of childhood and our lives must then( if we are to believe that the law of entropy of the physicist is common everywhere) gradually become more and more miserable until termination ( I also noticed that we get tierd through out the day...atleast this is the case for me unable to concentrate during night time. Also if you have a fever doesn't it's spike at night and mysteriously ease a bit in the morning).

[@PropheticSoakingwithSarahJER]

Thank you for this

[@bookclub5291]

You’re welcome. 🙏

[@jackdarby2168]

Thomas Aquinas worked this same problem out and he argues from change (change is always into and away from something which presupposes existence of something to begin with), from cause( this is easy if we say that the pot is made from clay, and clay is made from earth and so and so fourth we will have to go on indefinitely..zeno's paradox..so therefore there is a cause par excellence), from perfection( everything seeks fulfillment, completion, realisation, etc. which presupposes that there is a perfect being) and intelligence( the plant that grows towards sunlight. It knows it's own good. This in itself is sign of itself is sign intelligence. Therefore there has to be a source of intelligence most noble)

[@boarder614]

Thomas Aquinas re-incarnated as Rudolf Steiner, founder of Anthroposophy.

[@jackdarby2168]

@@boarder614 Steiner is like miles away

[@boarder614]

@@jackdarby2168 "Is like miles away"... can you clarify what you mean, 'cause I don't understand.

[@jackdarby2168]

@@boarder614 are you seriously comparing Saint Thomas Aquinas Rudolf Steiner?

[@boarder614]

@@jackdarby2168 Nevermind. Forget It, Chief.

[@leonardoborges8605]

dººb!🙏

[@his_highness09]

Existence it self is magical.we exist in the realm of magic from no where.but the movement you say that there is power of logic that push you downward and say see it's just humanative animal behaviour that produce divinity out of fear for safety purpose. Your body your boundaries pushed your idea of divinity down. Your upbringing your struggle your secret wound your hurt binds you and says loudly that you are in jungle. The war , animal instincts of humanity , Bound you . Then science comes it's always put anyone feelings down😂. So in logic you can't argue, if you argue it's coming from animal instincts insecurities. 😂 Then you live in the realm of confusion and drugged confidence by logical reasoning 😂

[@his_highness09]

Existence itself is magical. We find ourselves in a realm of magic, seemingly emerging from nowhere. However, the moment you introduce the power of logic, it pushes you downward, claiming that our sense of divinity is merely a product of human animal behavior driven by fear for safety. Your physical and mental boundaries suppress the notion of divinity. The struggles and wounds hidden deep within from your upbringing resonate loudly, reminding you that you are amidst a jungle of existence. The war and animal instincts within humanity bind you. Then, science appears, always ready to dismiss anyone's feelings 😂. So, within the realm of logic, arguing becomes questionable as it might stem from animal instincts and insecurities. 😂 Consequently, you dwell in a realm of confusion, and your confidence is somewhat drugged by logical reasoning 😂. Arranged it in proper English with the help of chatgpt😂