Borderline Emptiness and Other Things

[@friendlinessclaritin]

As an autistic person, here are a few resources for those looking for good information: -Auteach (TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, website): It's run by Robin, who is an autistic mother of an autistic daughter. I think she's working on her doctorate in autism, and I know she has published in autism academia. So she's a great expert all around. -LesleyPsyd (TikTok): A psychologist who specializes in neurodivergent work and talks about autism and ADHD often on her profile. If you're looking for a podcast, The Autistic Tea Party is great! (Though admittedly I've only listened to one episode so far.) Also, Dr. Honda, thanks for being willing to admit you don't know enough to comment! I always appreciate when people can say when they don't know something. Your podcast has always been a huge help to me (especially as someone who can't consistently afford therapy), thanks so much for making it!!

[@agp7206]

a hole, so deep, a void that nothing could fill.A nothingness. Thank you for what you do. I am alive because someone like you cared. And was patient and empathic. Thank you.

[@joerivera6334]

This is so bizarre, I didn't realize anybody else felt this. When I was a kid, I was neglected and abused. When I felt at my worst (for years), it was a physical sensation, like a ravine in my chest. I was gonna collapse into myself. Neck to navel.

[@agp7206]

@@joerivera6334 I know what you mean

[@artbyitalo1582]

its an emptyness so deep its not good or bad its just nothing theres litary nothing NOTHING

[@grinnellian2001]

Patron here. :) I'm SO glad you deferred talking about autism to others. That is incredibly unusual (but typically dr Kirk). When I was doing my own deep dive into autism to better understand my child I naturally listened to your episodes on the subject and was honestly horrified at the first one (which I assume is the one you referenced) and then found the second (which was the interview with the autistic poet) really great because she was so good at describing her experiences even though you still obviously weren't the expert on the subject. I don't say this m to criticize or trigger your ocpd--in however many thousands of hours of incredible broadcasts you're bound to have a few mistakes--but the humility is impressive and I wanted to say thanks. If viewers are looking for a great resource I cannot recommend the nj center for autism excellence's webinars (on KZbin) highly enough. They are on the front line of academic research while also deeply and meaningfully engaging with and centering voices from the neurodivergant community.

[@MsHwisprian]

no only empty, but collapsing in on myself in a way that is painful. like my chest is collapsing and I can't breathe. i am nothing. I am no one. discarded by my friends, my family, society. So not only completely empty, but also absolutely alone in the experience, even if there are people in the same room.

[@BuriedErect]

I describe it as profound loneliness. It's the feeling of NEEDING someone and knowing no one's coming. I feel like I'm falling too deep inside myself, like I'm set back from my eyes and mouth. It's like dissociation almost, but I haven't succeeded at unplugging all the way.

[@mikeeinarson5548]

Hmmm... I have BPD, and I'm not sure that I would describe my experience of emptiness that metaphorically (i.e. robotic, a black hole, or feeling like an empty can). I tend to relate it to my abandonment injuries - To me, it's more like overwhelming loneliness, and no amount of connection will make me feel safe, complete, or fulfilled. Mind you, DBT might have helped me to be able to understand the emotions attached to it and describe them? I'd also describe the emptiness as the feeling that I need to accomplish something to make my life 'worth it', but I have no idea what that thing is... Maybe unconsciously I think that if I accomplish something great, then I'll feel secure in my attachments? Then I'll be 'worth something' to other people or 'good enough'? I'm still figuring it out, but that's just what I've come to - Of course other peoples' presentations and experiences will be different and perhaps those metaphors fit them perfectly.

[@wackybrattyx]

Pretty much that. That’s why I think that “void” describes it best. It’s like a hunger that is devoid of feeling but is always there and NOTHING can qualm the hunger. I used to think that relationships would, but - that didn’t work. I now realize that NOTHING external can fill the void because…the way to fill the void is to love myself. Its the worst catch 22.

[@tjsimo3637]

The metaphor I have always used to describe the void is the experimental plant that was grown in a closet (or a dark damp space) wherein they were given everything to survive but sunlight and then were brought outside. I imagine it's similar to the shock that plant felt when it was finally submerged into the 'real world' (i.e. away from the abusive home). The emptiness for me at least was not necessarily the abuse but my place in a world of beautiful flowering plants and believing that I would never be like that because many distanced themselves like I was a disease when I was too young to understand why. It's very lonely because if one survives the transition, the individual is slightly disfigured and others (from my experience) attribute the 'maladaption' toward the individual. Rather than understanding that most basic need were not met and they, a lot of the time, have done an incredible job at adapting with what they were given and just need support in allowing their roots to fully submerge. From what I have learnt from my own recovery and avoiding developing a personality disorder is that an individual can strive every day to heal themselves but they cannot do it alone. The cut and run way of thinking is corrosive to society as social connection is an innate evolutionary trait and the fact that even clinical therapists partake in it it's extremely concerning. ***Just adding on that I know there is a lot going on in this message and thank you for making these videos and creating a safe space/platform for people to understand and connect to themselves! I felt as though this first half of the message may have come off as judgemental. I only communicated it the way I did because I feel so strongly against estrangement within our societies and see it as a reoccuring issue for people to grow and learn. However I do understand that there are definitely reasons to cut and run but as a second year psyc student I am seeing this issue in various walks of my own and other's lives. Thank you to anyone who took the time to read this!

[@jennaalden3658]

I remember when I was 21 and breaking up with my first boyfriend whom I really loved, my mom was inside the house and I was sitting in the car, because I couldn't get out of the car because I was in so much physical pain from the breakup. My mom took me to the hospital, because she didn't know what to do with my emotions. So for me, while I definitely have felt emptiness, I more relate to the feeling of being in utter physical pain from the emotions that I would feel as someone who had borderline tendencies and dealing with attachment trauma. There was a moment a few years ago when I was at the brink of my healing journey (and my family, along with me), where my family had gotten into the worst fight we have ever had, and I just threw myself onto the floor and was screaming "Im in so much pain" because of the emotional pain I was feeling. Is that the same as feeling emptiness? I don't know. Maybe not, because I feel that over the past 3 years, the emotional work I have done for myself has brought me to a place of being almost completely secure-attached and with almost no clear BPD tendencies. I still will sometimes feel very irrationally upset at people for canceling plans sometimes, but the amount of differentiation that I have learned (in part thanks to you, Dr. Honda) has allowed me to stay level headed in times of potential distress.

[@lyciumchld]

My mom can't really articulate her feelings because she's so disconnected from them, but her behavior often suggests this kind of emptiness. She gets up, eats, goes back to bed. Seeks my attention, goes back to bed. It's like she just can't figure out or even think to entertain or enrich herself without some sort of purpose provided from outside of herself. She seeks my attention so obsessively that when I ask her why she isn't making phone calls to get social stimulation from her peers she can't answer me. I explain to her that I'm in therapy to work on maintaining myself, that if I spent everything to maintain her there would be nothing left for me, that there are things we have to maintain for ourselves in order to be healthy. She seems to sort of understand, but doesn't really "get" it. She knows she feels deeply uncomfortable, but can't connect with herself enough to even articulate it or figure out what she needs, so she seeks my attention compulsively and then feels miserable because I simply cannot provide her with a self, self esteem, self image, purpose, or 24/7 stimulation. I'm pretty sure her case is severe because her sense of self is so thoroughly shattered.

[@wackybrattyx]

I think that “void” describes it best. Its like…what I imagine phantom pain to feel like? Something is missing but you don’t know what it is, but it FEELS like it’s missing. Or like a hunger without the hunger bangs, mixed with helplessness; it randomly lurks in the background, and is always there and NOTHING can squelch it. You can eat and eat and eat, but it feels like you’re eating air; so you’re left confused and wondering if you’re hungry in the first place? It’s like…a gap. And I used to think that relationships would fill the void, but - that didn’t work. I now realize that NOTHING external can fill the void because the answer is to learn to love myself. It’s the worst catch 22.

[@vladimiramuravska2374]

Thank you so much Bob for sharing such a beautiful story. It felt truly heartwarming.

[@carlyp454]

I'm amazed at the detail in which you can describe your childhood Dr Honda. I have bpd (*sidenote* my therapist calls it cptsd because bod has such bad stigma and she says its the same thing. So its interesting to hear you differentiate between the two) and I have so few memories of my childhood. And also struggle to remember high school which was only 12 years ago. Like, I truly couldn't tell you majority of my teachers names. And I couldn't tell you a single teachers name from the 1.5 years of college I attended. 🤷

[@carlyp454]

To clarify its my current therapist who uses cptsd and bpd synonymously. I was diagnosed with bpd by a different therapist. Lol. Sorry overthinking 🙃

[@cestmarrant1]

I hardly have any memories either. I only remember little vignettes here and there, and they're like watching something on TV. i don't have the experience of the memory.

[@itsmejoy8918]

BPD often times makes me feel unwanted. Like the end slices of a bread loaf. Funny analogy but it makes a lot of sense to me and how I feel when I'm at my worst.

[@sallyann985]

Because the end slices get thrown away? It's a very nice metaphor.

[@TRaWi]

It's like you're not living your life, but watching a movie of your life. Not from the outside, but from the inside. Like watching a movie of your life, or like watching a scene through a layer of running water, or watching it through a telescope from a great distance, because you're not there. Because there's no you. And because what you watch is utterly meaningless and inconsequent. You are not there, you don't belong, you don't participate, so you just watch, all you can do is just watch, you cannot stop, you can do nothing else, you have no control, because there's no you. You feel your body but it's not really yours, the feeling is just part of the scene, there is no you. And still, sometimes, there is a spark of hope one day there will be a you, and you'll have a life, and happiness, meaning, love, achievements. After all, the others are real, only you are not. Alas the spark is tiny and fickle and mostly absent, all that remains is to wait for the day someone will arrive or something will happen and your life will begin.

[@clouddot1462]

Loved the part where Bob accepts that he helped the lady with depression, it felt like a moment.

[@AlwaysAnna77]

It totally felt like a moment. When Dr Kirk says "she's in your heart" 😭💙 I got teary eyed

[@tulip5210]

yes! thank you Dr. Honda!

[@momomomomomo958]

What a beautiful story, Bob! Thank you for sharing. Beautifully told!

[@itsamonkieplanet9367]

It’s the nothingness meaninglessness Like being invisible to the masses but the masses don’t matter

[@fondoftheduh]

Grief. It's grief like when you accept it and just let it be your blanket while you process it. It's the great empty void where you could meet God if you ask him to be with you or send the comforter to speak wisdom into the experience.

[@Unimportant825]

The void feels to me like being in the ocean. Like a submerged surfer whose leash broke. You don’t know which way is up. You feel like you could swim in any direction forever and never reach air. To it’s not so much emptiness as it is futility. Futility in all directions

[@elinhellstrom7856]

Manufactued, like the Twin peaks tulpa concept. Just a shell, pretending to be a person. Inside, there's nonexistense, and maybe that Lynchian ominous whooshing. When you feel like lights and sounds have nothing to bounce off, it just implodes into a vacuum, but the vacuum is you. It's a feeling so diffuse that whenever you try to describe it, whatever metaphor you use, it never quite fits. I used the Twin peaks tulpa concept to describe it this time and I know you're a Twin peaks fan, and I'm wondering, did you ever do an episode about twin peaks? What did you think about Twin peaks the return?

[@LenaL146]

I don’t remember how to be excited about the ice cream truck, being adult has killed all that excitement fro me. I wish I knew how to get it back

[@ErebosGR]

Could you talk about the film "All My Friends Hate Me"? It made me think that the protagonist had BPD.

[@515aleon]

One thing I wonder about with autism though--you said you treated a lot of borderline clients? I lot of us get misdxed as borderline. I did, for sure, got dxed borderline, schizoid personality, and schizophrenia. Maybe doesn't happen so much anymore? I am 74.

[@MercedesMermaid]

Any plan to cover the deep end on Hulu?

[@gaylewatkins6781]

I clicked because I'm ASD/BPD..with c-ptsd...primal terror? Thats interesting. For me it's not empty..it's being of no value..worthless..not able to function without so much effort .that I'm exhausted all the time.. in an effort to appear valuable.. knowing it's a lie. Geeze I just want to sleep.... tune out..

[@clouddot1462]

An effort to appear valuable, knowing it’s a lie ..... perfect summary

[@nishadh366]

Me too I want to sleep forever

[@darkartsbyadrienne]

Maybe the emptiness= lack of inspiration? Something to do or look forward to?

[@skyes333]

Like that… but think more permanent. Even when attaining inspiration or something to look forward to. And it changes. Sometimes you only feel the emptiness. Sometimes it’s just haunting you underneath everything.

[@darkartsbyadrienne]

@@skyes333 very interesting. Sometimes I get down for about a day if I run out of something to do, but I can't really imagine the emptiness that has been described. It seems too much to contemplate. I wish nothing like that for anyone ever.

[@skyes333]

@@darkartsbyadrienne I really wish there was a way to describe it better. And I wouldn’t wish that feeling on my worst enemy. **sending you many things to do so you never feel restless**

[@darkartsbyadrienne]

@@skyes333 thank you 😊 wish no one had to experience it too. I'm glad that it was talked about though because I had no idea and if restlessness for the better part of a day makes me panic, I just can't imagine this emptiness. So thank you for articulating it to the best of your ability. And hopefully the more people become informed, the better able we are to at least begin to understand what people experiencing these feelings are going through.

[@vroxxzz]

@@darkartsbyadrienne i remember feeling this as a child. I felt hollow like I was a smiling paper person with nothing behind the paper. I felt if anyone scratched the surface even a little bit, they'd know i wasn't a real person. I didn't feel the extremes of emotion (extreme joy, extreme sadness) and i often just mimicked what others did to show emotion hoping they wouldn't (edited spelling) figure me because i couldn't access my own feelings. This changed as i got older, but yes, the descriptions of feeling like a cold empty hollow or formless objects definitely rang true. BTW - tbis wasn't as a result of trauma. I dont know either what caused it or why the feeling went away.

[@RayneyKayLa]

Please Address CODEPENDENCY!!!

[@meatlocks]

He's done a deep dive on codependency.

[@poodleriffic]

I want to listen to these so bad. But that other guy interrupting Dr Honda and talking over him does my nervous system in. And stressed my focus and selective attention ability. It makes me sad because I am interested in the valuable information but the other guy interrupting and talking at the same time as the doctor stresses me and makes me feel like I am fighting for the valuable information.

[@bigwhy6845]

it's a conversation. The "other guy" is Dr. Honda's long-time friend and a skilled therapist in his own right. The valuable information comes out through this dynamic conversation. Maybe it's good practice for you to desensitize yourself to conversations since they're one of the least offensive and most relationship-building aspects of society. Honestly if you're triggered by someone going "hmm, ya" in a conversation then that's a you problem.

[@TRaWi]

I feel exactly like you, but about the episodes with Humberto. I'm sure it's my "authority bias". Bob is another counselor and it makes me feel like his input is worthy, but Humberto is not a counselor, I dunno what he is, if he is "something" and not knowing kills me. Most of the time I feel just silly chatter comes from him and that he has a platfom he doesn't deserve just because he's Dr. Honda's friend, although I realize he's a very intelligent and cultured man with great ideas and I can relate to his experience of growing up in a Latin country and because I'm of similar age of them both, still I'd rather not have Humberto episodes, ever. Not even counting the fact I found out they're friends after watching like, 30 videos. Before that I believed they were life partners, since in this same 30 episodes Kirk never mentioned his wife.

[@skyes333]

First!!

[@gracegriffith945]

@@skyes333 oh my god I’m so sorry my daughter had my phone (she’s almost 2) lol I’ll delete it now 😂😂

[@skyes333]

@@gracegriffith945 hahaha it’s ok!! I thought you were short handing something. I’ll have a conversation w your daughter any time. It’s my pleasure! 😂