Box vs Gamecube Controllers

[@_GLXC]

Meanwhile people in the FGC are playing with steering wheels, guitars, 60 button battlestations (for optimal mashing), and fight sticks with ONLY sticks (no buttons)

[@Lep_19]

I'm getting serious deja vu from when everyone thought Puff was the most broken character in the game and had to be banned. Every time someone asked why they wouldn't switch to what was supposedly the most optimal character, they'd make up some excuse like "it's too boring" or "it wouldn't be fun" (ignoring the fact that these would also be sacrifices anyone else would have to make to take advantage of it), perpetually making themselves out to be some expert on the character without ever having competed with her. It felt like such a gross double standard to see everyone putting her at the top of their tierlists and calling for a ban without any of them demonstrating either their own skill or the performance of others as a basis for those claims. The actual cause of the outcry, as we eventually found out when HBox's results stopped being so dominating, was one of sudden change and recency bias, something that seems to be chronic in the community. Everyone saying rectangle controllers are broken without ever demonstrating their own capabilities on it (even explicitly admitting that they have no experience with one) is mind boggling to me. People throwing around "I'm not gonna do it because I don't wanna relearn everything" somehow are able to feel that it's simultaneously a big enough hurdle to justify their decision, but also not enough of a problem to be a noteworthy deficit or sacrifice for anyone that's taken the time to do it. This is of course not mentioning the other trade offs you have to make when switching that you covered in your video (i.e. everyone loves to talk about "broken" smash DI, but very few people also acknowledge the slower, more unintuitive, and more limited aerial drift and standard DI that comes with it). We've seen this situation before in 2D platformer speedruns (a niche I'm a part of in conjunction with Melee). The great debate between conventional controllers and keyboards has never turned up with a concrete preference for really any game, and both are consistently represented at the top level of play. Sure, having consistency in your inputs is really nice, and in fact an argument can pretty easily be made that keyboards are just straight up better than controllers in those games because of that. But ultimately the advantage goes to the player with the better decision-making and more hours put into mastering their execution, regardless of which controller they're using. The only real difference is their comfort in using it as a means to express their gameplay, a sentiment that's echoed by rectangle players at large in my experience. I know saying this stuff doesn't really matter and doesn't do anything for the people that are already blatantly ignoring any of the input from actual rectangle players. This just seemed like a good place to express some frustration and potentially find common ground. Also shoutouts to the Waff comment in the beginning. I've always loved that guy for his never-ending good takes and dedication to the community, and hearing him actually acknowledge that it's worth learning about the controller before forming an opinion is such a breath of fresh air coming from such a recognizable community figure. It feels like we're hard pressed to find any other folks like that right now.

[@meditate_ssbu]

Nice high-effort comment, thanks

[@popanda3652]

gorgeous comment. just for this im gonna sub!

[@showsister69]

The internet has given losers and idiots a voice. Contrary to popular belief everyone SHOULDN'T have a soapbox to stand on, the reality is most peoples thoughts and opinions are just regurgitated from a small few and we'd be better off as a whole without everyone's shitty non OC thoughts. That being said I 100% agree with everything you've said. It doesn't even matter if Puff was broken then, or if the boxx is now. People who literally do not know have opinions nor have every been a part of either. It's psychotic

[@LeetTron5000]

I dont agree with your comparison on puff being op. Puff is intended by the devs, box is not. That my main issue, im not really involved in the community but as an outsider the thought or a new controller 20 years later having any sort of advantages just stirs things up.

[@Athazago]

Let me get this straight... It's perfectly fine to modify your controller to make certain advanced techniques easier, or buying certain custom-made controllers with said modifications, which give you a competitive edge over those who don't have them, meaning they are shit out of luck if they can't fork over the hundreds of dollars a single one of those controllers costs. It is however completely frowned upon having purpose built hardware only consisting of buttons which helps you just the same to hit those advanced movement techniques while still locking you out of certain other movement options only achievable by modded gcn controllers? That's not just toxic elitism. That's a stupid double standard.

[@luker.6967]

Yeah I agree. Boxes and non stock GC circuitboard should be banned.

[@Athazago]

@@luker.6967 tbf, Stock gcn controllers can be built poorly, if you lose in the shipping lottery. But like... A cheap alternative option that is, quality-speaking, equal to an original Nintendo product, It really wouldn't be too much to ask for, right?

[@BreakfastKids]

0:27 is this ben shapiro weighing in on the boxx?

[@salatv8228]

lol somebody got it

[@schimaaaa]

Amazing Vid! One thing I would've liked to seen mentioned, is that empty pivots are arguably easier on controllers, since you need to flick the stick, whereas you'd need to press and release the left/right button on the boxx after exactly one frame. Unless there's another method I'm not aware of.

[@salatv8228]

Good point! You have an opportunity to either press down or a modifier button on the frame after you turn, so it’s a bit more lenient. I can get about 5 in a row before messing up

[@blackh4ze778]

@@salatv8228 exactly, i tried with modifier first, but the down method clicked more for me, since its the same motion for pc drop. I play on keyboard (same function as frame1/boxx) for like 6 months now and i can do it very consistently.

[@Bones0]

One of the most overpowered aspects of box controllers is dashing with buttons. I tested my reaction time in Uncle Punch with button presses and stick inputs. I was usually getting reactions that were 1-2 frames faster on buttons because there's almost no travel time. This means that in order to react to someone attacking you and dash away or react to a tech roll and dash towards, you have to be 1-2 frames faster on GCC in order to match a box user's performance. It's possible I'm abnormally slow with stick inputs or my controller had PODE/some issue that is delaying the output, but even if we imagine the difference is only half a frame instead of 1-2, that is still a noticeable advantage for a game like Melee.

[@salatv8228]

This is an interesting point. I’ll test this for myself too, but I’d imagine pressing a button on reaction would be slightly faster than moving the stick.

[@yungtraplord8553]

Bones has a large cranium

[@FlipsMG]

Hax$ tested this himself and found the opposite, and he's played at the top competitive level with both GCC and B0XX. From my understanding it's easier for less experienced players to get to higher dash dance speeds with box-style controllers, but at the highest level GCC users actually are able to execute this faster.

[@Bones0]

@@FlipsMG First of all, anything Hax tested himself is obviously going to be biased in favor of the b0xx because that's his controller... Secondly, I'm not talking about DDing really fast in place which is mostly useless, I'm talking about raw speed of an initial dash. Even with GCC buttons which are noticeably slower than something like Sanwa fightstick buttons, you can easily execute dash inputs faster.

[@azulis8347]

Es el futuro i nos tenemos que modernizar. Los que critican es como si te dijeran que te tines que quedar un mobil de 2002 porque los de 2021 són mejores. No tendria que haver ni un nerf a la box (es el futuro) Traductor: It is the future and we have to modernize. Those who criticize it is as if they told you to have a mobile from 2002 because those from 2021 are better. I would not have to take a nerf to the box (is the future)

[@Manaiike]

another video? Pog

[@ceniza_honey]

I’ve been playing on a diy box for a few days, and my hands are thanking me. However, on gcc I have really good perfect shields. Super consistent perfect wavedashes, ledgedages, and I can often do wacky teleport sdi. I grinded that specifically for a long time to get the advantages of such techniques, most of which I’m never be able to do on boxx no matter how much I practice bc it’s just not capable of performing these. It’s really really bittersweet.

[@theformuoli6397]

I think thing that is forgotten about a lot, is that if you have a controller (boxes) that have instant inputs, you will forever just be inherently faster than someone thats on the gc controller because of raw natural input delay. For things like control stick movement, moving your fingers to the c stick / other buttons unless you are claw gripping, everything is just faster on average with box off layout and design alone. It’s briefly mentioned in the video, but not exactly explained in the detail that I think matters

[@droppingcombos]

The HitBoxx master race

[@Saskaruto16]

You do not have to use claw grip in order to get frame perfect fade back fair as Marth on a GCC. If you are fast enough you can just move your thumb to the c-stick quickly enough to execute it, though it is strenuous to do so. M2K for instance does not claw his fade back fairs on Marth because he is just that fast, though he has said that he used to claw for them before he gained the speed to not have to.

[@djuka7566]

Same for double lasers off the ledge. Using tap jump is much easier and more consistent

[@Fariorn]

AMEN! finally somebody who has some serious arguments.

[@patatovky]

imo he boxx should be perfectly legal but da smash box NEEDS to go seriously

[@zachstarattack7320]

i thought this channel would have 100,000 subs. when i saw 300 i couldnt believe it

[@bbqseitan7106]

I mean it’s the same as in the other fighting games. You CAN use pad, but why do that when the squares are better/more consistent and promote longevity in the game. Also if you can the squares you have to ban Phobs and Gooms too since they have they have the same upsides to the squares, consistency

[@Gabi-ij7ug]

Conclusion: Notches are busted

[@baileyayyy5085]

you can perfect rising/drifting fair without claw its just a bit harder

[@Bamby290]

I use GCC with no notches and I can hit any angle on command, I am also an average level falco player, if I can do it you can too its not that hard.

[@martincpt204]

Does this translate to Ultimate too?

[@shrubby372]

Your so underrated

[@OWmofat]

5:34 - tap jump

[@NAND512]

arthritis is a fire montage btw like the video tho

[@jemezko507]

Good vid and nice und real informations

[@Chimpyg0ttrix]

I have been playing on keyboard for a couple weeks without using modifiers at all and I feel like reverse knee isn't too bad

[@antagonizingusername]

Good video. Underrated channel. Subscribed.

[@lewisbirkett4428]

To me not having a stick seems a huge nerf. Yeah certain precise angles can be hit but you have to pick a small few ones compared to a controller that with notches can hit them all albeit with difficulty

[@J355_dll]

I've played quite a bit of melee on keyboard, and the only issue with not having a stick hat been like "break the targets" mini game. And I have my keyboard barely setup. WASD for movement, shift for halfing the analog input for a slower walk. H for A button, U for B button, I for grab, and K for shield. I'm at least comparable to my boyfriend who plays with a controller, though I have just started to play with a keyboard recently, so I may get way better, and refine my control scheme a a bit.

[@lewisbirkett4428]

@@J355_dll I gave a few layouts a go when I didn't have my controllers on me but it was super confusing and I couldn't get the hang of it. If I had longer I probably could have, it seems fine for Marth who I play but can't imagine it on characters that need precise angles

[@J355_dll]

@Lewis Birkett yeah, I probably need to find a way to setup angles, I play Pikachu (casually), and definitely need more angles than the 8 I can get currently. It's been fun, and I play plenty of other fighting games with a keyboard, but SC6 and MKX aren't exactly known for needing precise angles.

[@lewisbirkett4428]

@@J355_dll exactly I dont mind because I don't play spacies/chu but if I did I would much prefer a box with a stick

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@slouch186]

if the box controllers are better everyone should just use those instead.

[@popanda3652]

ikr, i comlpain that marth is busted i get told "then just learn to play him" but if i flip the table on em and say "just learn to play rectangles" they get mad and say stupid stuff like "why should i learn a whole new way of playing just to stay relevent?" idk top tier main, you tell me why i have to switch mains to stay relevent.

[@ceniza_honey]

If you have good consistent tech on gcc. Box is gonna nerf you no matter what.

[@luker.6967]

So you have to be better than swift for the gcc to be better lol

[@ceniza_honey]

@@luker.6967 lol. That’s not at all what I said. Lol.

[@RTU130]

How is aerial drift on them? How many lengths?

[@salatv8228]

You can technically use the modifier buttons to change the degree of aerial drift, but that’s difficult and probably too slow. Most people just tap the button if you need to drift slightly.

[@BirdAsBond]

I'm confused at a few of your claw grip statements. I've never used a claw, I hold the gamecube controller normally for fade back fair with marth. You may have over complicated that move for yourself for no reason lol

[@salatv8228]

If you're holding backwards and press the A button, you get a back-air. If you're using a normal grip, it'd be really awkward to jump, and then move your thumb to the c-stick instantly. Either you're not doing an instant fade back aerial, you're not getting maximum drift, or you're just really talented lol

[@BirdAsBond]

@@salatv8228 gotcha. probably im definitely not getting max drift.

[@BSMPod]

Great video!

[@BlackEscavalier]

The Ben Shapiro tts is godlike

[@l14m16]

WTF, I just realized im in this video

[@SkeletonSSBM]

This is a great video, you get a sub for this 👍

[@OWmofat]

In the "b0xx type controller" community we just call them "Rectangles"

[@RandyMayCrazy]

wait so the frame one is better than the boxx? cuz i’m thinking of getting the boxx but if u guys recommend the frame one better i might just get that one

[@salatv8228]

So the frame one has switches that last 100x longer than the b0xx, it’s also cheaper, and people say it feels better. The problem is that they haven’t been in stock for like 8 months, and people who have ordered them have to wait months to receive it.

[@RandyMayCrazy]

and between the frame one and the hitbox which one do u recommend?

[@salatv8228]

@@RandyMayCrazy I don't use either so I can't really give an opinion, but personally I really want to get a frame 1 when they restock. The smashbox is really big and clunky. If you want to see frame 1 reviews, check out Crane's Lab on youtube

[@FlipsMG]

@@RandyMayCrazy I know this was 6 months ago, but if you're still wondering DO NOT spend money on the hitbox. The control layout is terrible, it's overpriced, and it has serious legality issues.

[@RandyMayCrazy]

@@FlipsMG oh man don’t worry I’m waiting for the next frame one drop which is on the 19th to pre-order it, thank you anyway though.

[@sgtpepper91]

MOOOOOM PEOPLE PLAY ON A CONTROLLER THAT I DON'T LIKE TELL THEM TO STOOOOOP MOOOOOOOOOOM

[@ojgimpson]

Smash Box is required to be nerfed in most rulesets. There's a whole section for box controllers in the SWT ruleset :) Also iirc you can notch for easier pivot up tilts on gcc Great vid!

[@manligi9701]

If the smashbox essentially has none of the nerfs, why has it fallen out of favor? I've already seen a video that convinced me Frame 1 over Boxx, but why doesn't anyone use the smash box?

[@salatv8228]

I think it could be a number of factors. Hax had drama with the hitbox company, and he basically won the popularity contest. The b0xx is also marketed directly towards the melee community, while the smashbox is marketed towards other communities. The smashbox has other downsides such as being incredibly large and ugly. And not everyone’s intention is to use the most busted controller.

[@manligi9701]

@@salatv8228 The point I strongly agree with is that it's ugly and clunky looking. The fact they stole Hax's design bothered me in the past, but not anymore because that's how things go. Not using the most busted controller seems sub optimal and purposely hampering your performance, but I understand the reasoning to do so only because mush brained or people without experience with it will think it's an easy win Honestly if a controller is better than the GC one, I'm not sure why that's a big deal. Hand pain have a thing complained for melee for eons and there hasn't been a viable alt for it. Now there is one with equal cross benefits and trade offs (pre nerf) people complain that it's too strong that they nerf...weird times

[@antagonizingusername]

@@manligi9701 another factor is that the smashbox has atrocious ergonomics, which is a significant determining factor for a lot of box players

[@manligi9701]

@@antagonizingusername True. It looked like cheeks when first announced, but feels like it's getting left in the dust. I just wish both the boxx and frame1 didn't nerf themselves so then we'd really see crazy tech. People already rock crazy mod GC controllers, so having a box controller live up to its potential shouldn't be hampered

[@price5560]

Ben Shapiro was my favorite part

[@sonder420]

Did you get Ben Shapiro to read these tweets?

[@Trystaticus]

moonwalking is also easier on boxx in other words plz ban

[@steveharveywithouthismusta9323]

Ben Shapiro just got destroyed

[@MrBranh0913]

Does Ben Shapiro play smash?

[@swinginman]

The Ben Shapiro AI TTS is an immediate turn off. Why are you using that?

[@sillybearhours]

box nerfs don’t even work lmao you can still slight di theyre just arbitrary values

[@sillybearhours]

having access to specific angles > two steep angles per quadrants

[@salatv8228]

Yeah you can slight DI, but it’s not too ambiguous which side you’ll land on. Look at the clip at 6:51, that’s the best the b0xx can do on marth up throw.

[@antoineslat6495]

Been playing melee for a year now. started with a smashbox and never looked back. AMA

[@gamemen4668]

i think B00X is perfectly fine in my opionon

[@MultiAsdasad]

I think box controllers are definitely OP, but would be healthier in the long run and would bring up the techskill level a lot, closing the gap between players and making decisions more important. However, the worst for me is that it changes the most fundamental part of the game, which can be compared to martials arts for example, where some guy can have a really strong technique that he'd training for 10+ years with different styles and so on, to then have people that with a couple years of practice can do about any tech. Kind of a nostalgia feeling but maybe its for the better, although its gonna be a whole new era

[@FlipsMG]

Box-style controllers are more consistent (which shouldn't be demonized, more consistent hardware = more competitive integrity) but immensely harder to play objectively. Here's a few examples: - After up + b firefox takes just moving an analog stick (one single input) to whatever angle you want (180 different angles possible for GCC, and notches for perfect consistency). Whereas on a box-style controller, it takes THREE inputs instead of one, you only get 16 angles instead of 180, and you have an extra layer of decision making (which means more chances to fail) because there are 6 buttons involved and you are choosing 3 of the 6 coordinated across 5 different fingers (instead of 1 finger) across 2 different hands all in very specific scenarios on the fly. - Wavedashing with controller requires 3 inputs and GCC has notches for perfect wavedash angles that box-style controllers were nerfed to not have access to at all (box-style controllers get 13 degrees less of an angle compared to GCC notches which is a massively lower distance traveled per wavedash). With a box-style controller you require 5 inputs (almost twice as many inputs and much more difficult to execute) to get a shorter wavedash. These are just a few examples, I'm not going to sit here and write a thesis on this but GCC overall is advantaged in basically every single way except hardware consistency (which again more consistency would just make competitive integrity better for everyone so we should strive for it, not demonize it), and ergonomics (which everyone should want because why fuck up your hands when you don't have to).

[@popanda3652]

@@FlipsMG preach

[@b00nz0r]

Had to leave, Ben Shapiro is such a fake I can’t even stand his replicated voice lol