Breaking Down Mary Sues

Yare Yare Daze.
Let's talk about Mary Sues... And Break down the term.
Editing helped by / waverunner5642
/ fanfickleentertainment
Original video: • Ranting About Mary Sue...
Chapters
0:00 - THE MARY SUE
0:43 - What is a MARY SUE?
5:52 - Punch Ghost Punk
12:13 - Hallway Hero
18:23 - Female Goku
22:59 - Conclusion
26:56 - End Credits
Wanna contact or support me?
Patreon: / mangakamen
Twitter: / manga_kamen
Deviantart: flairnightz.deviantart.com/
Discord: / discord
G-Mail: [e-mail]
#pokemonscarletviolet #jojosbizzareadventures #pokemon

[@Mangakamen]

Note: For some reason, even though I rendered the video in HD, youtube didn't want to. So my apologies on it only being at 720p, maybe down the line I'll try this again, but please excuse this mess up.

[@MrGamernova]

Another thing I'd like to note are oc's put in fnf mods. It's actually kinda Genius. You get to show off your oc, they lose to bf in a battle, and thus don't come off like a Mary Sue so much since well, bf who's not really shown to be that much stronger than a normal human was able to beat them.

[@eramo607productions6]

Eh it’s fine. Don’t worry.

[@tigersharkmaxwell]

Hey Master, just wanted to let you know that I'm doing fine, and that Stone Ocean has inspired me to do better, and turn things around. I'm planning to make the next big step in growing my channel in a few months. Hopefully then, I'll be able to make up for any tiresome requests or raised eyebrows I've caused.

[@crownedshyness9656]

Yara yara daze. Do you understand?

[@MisterHeroman]

Nobody has ever called Nemona and Jotaro mary/gary Sues.

[@mesiagamer5217]

Honestly having Jotero and Nemona two characters that you can argue are Mary sue's by the accepted definition are still loved characters

[@C24U_]

I would argue Jonathan Jostar is more of a Mary Sue then Jotaro. Flawless, unshakable moral compass, has someone teach him how to use a power to kill the exact thing he needs to kill, uses that power to do basically whatever he needs at the given situation. Yes, he dies at the end but he ultimately prevent the rise of a monster who wanted to take over the world.

[@Mepphy99]

they are cool

[@nishchayjain1121]

@@C24U_ well, Johnathan is like not a Mary Sue, but you can say that he has a Boy Scout personality. And you have Johnny Joestar from Steel ball run, who was an American version of Johnathan but better written.

[@cael4065]

Nemona is a rival that you have to strive to overcome, that just makes her a good video game enemy

[@midnightemerald]

@@cael4065 but you don’t have to strive, you pummel her team into the dirt 62 thousand times without her ever acknowledging it, and her champion status is not at all reflected in her battle skills.

[@jwcarroll6378]

It should also be noted that post-game, Nemona takes offense that others assumed she’s a gifted trainer, ignoring the hard work she puts in.

[@amirgarcia547]

True, which I thought was also an interesting parallel to “gifted” children irl, where people treat them like they were somehow borne with their innate talents and don’t still put in hard work like everyone else.

[@angelsartandgaming]

Artist here, I related to that so hard. I've gotten the "you're so talented' comments or the "I wish I could draw as good as you but I can't draw stick figures" thing. And I'm like "It took YEARS of drawing to get to my level."

[@itzYonko]

@@angelsartandgaming No one asked + ai make better art then you

[@angelsartandgaming]

I don't care.

[@obits3]

@@amirgarcia547 Exactly. She’s good at Pokémon battles because she loves them. That obsession naturally led to more hours of practice, creating a growing skills gap between herself and others. Looking at the game as a whole, there’s no reason to believe Nemona is in any way special aside from having rich parents.

[@Jjames763]

Mary Sues are better defined not as characters lacking flaws, but rather characters who warp the story and universe around them to be implausibly centered on _them._

[@IceQueen975]

Yep. The Literary Devil posed that definition and honestly when he said it, things finally clicked. He articulated EXACTLY the issue with Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

[@cradodragmire1563]

Chris Pratts character in Jurassic World I stg has to be a mary sue.

[@MrMegaSuperDuperMe]

Naruto fanfictions in a nutshell. LOL

[@ninjagirl226]

Through Bryce Quinlan from Crescent City books (at least book 1) in the Mary Sue pile. I think the author tried to avoid some of the Mary Sue tropes. The character is flawed (hung up on her friend’s death, won’t listen to anyone), and while the wolf packs don’t like her for most of the book it’s clear by the end that she’s in the right and the bestest ever though out. Well she also goes deus ex machina in the end but even before that the story just revolves around her and I’m just like why her? Why can’t ANY of the other characters who we’re told are strong do anything literally at the end of the book before the dues ex machina scene the most powerful characters are literally sitting at a table watching her fight instead of doing something. Only one character tries and he fights with her for 5 min before she shoves him in a bunker for his own safety when that character is essentially a werewolf policeman while she is a girl with a gun and sword and at the time we didn’t know she had any real power. I could go on but yeah while I enjoyed the first Crescent City book Bryce is a Mary Sue, but there’s book two so maybe that will change things but idk.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Yes, a mary sue can be created when the different layers of storytelling are in disagreement with each other.

[@javelinmaster2]

There is one thing that debunks the whole "Jotaro is a Mary sue" argument and that's the fact that part 6 exists.

[@Gabrielfrota]

We don´t even need to go as far as part 6, during part 3 multiple times he is no the be all end all to all situations. To some extent i think Giorno is closer to be a Gary Stu than Jotaro with the detriment that it made him one of the most boring Jojos and he basicaly lost the protag status to Bucciarati lol.

[@javelinmaster2]

@@Gabrielfrota I know, it's just that part 6 is the indisputable take-down of that argument. And yh Bucciarati is the ultimate Jobro and I liked him more than Giorno. Heck I could say the same about Mista.

[@slobertooth1358]

@Gabriel Frota I wouldn't say Girono is a Gary stu at all. Everything would have to go have gone absolutely perfect for to be called a Gary stu, but things definitely didn't go perfectly.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@Gabrielfrota Nah, Giorno ain't one either.

[@Gabrielfrota]

@@slobertooth1358 Never said he was, i said he was, closer than Jotaro, being close to be a Gary Stu doesn´t mean that the character is one.

[@themasterblaze7563]

I'm in the same boat of being tired of people oversimplifying Nemona's character. People snub her time and again for her parent's wealth, skirt battles with her because of aptitude for battles and treat her unfairly for her position as student council leader. She catches so much unecesary hate in-universe when she's a genuinley nice person. Her parents are basically absent and she's so powerful she can't enjoy her passion; so I don't blame her for responding so excitedly and possessively to the main character because we actually give her the time of day.

[@themasterblaze7563]

@@shizachan8421 That's not bad theory and it would be an explanation for her hyperfixation's. However I'm a little hesitant to give her that label because she's kinda tone deaf and I'd hate to see people bring up the horrible "autistic people don't understand emotions" stereotype.

[@kiogu_3348]

I never hated nemona but i never understood her excitement until you said this. Its easy to put yourself in her shoes if you ever had the experience where you are so good at a certain thing that noone in your friendgroup or anyone you can compete with doesnt excite you enough to enjoy it. For example you are the best smash player in your group of friends and relatives. Its hard to get them to play with you and when it happens its hard to enjoy. To find someone on your level or beyond. Thats amazing. You wanna get better. Something you havent done in a while.

[@ignaciosantander3356]

my character looked down and then walked towards nemona so it looked like he was trying to look under her skirt

[@ignaciosantander3356]

@@shizachan8421 i wish that if theres another team rainbow rocket we get to fight penny

[@angelsartandgaming]

@@kiogu_3348 I felt this as an autistic person. When you have a passion that you personally get excited about but there's literally no one who shares it or can get behind what you like. Bonus points if it's a niche interest. Worse when you get too excited and people outright dismiss what you like. So I relate to Nemona's massive fixation with battles. She's good at it, she's passionate about it in fact, but because maybe she's TOO good or just doesn't understand that not everyone shares that level of excitement, it's just hard for her to communicate with anyone until she meets the player.

[@holty1314]

Who else wishes we got Nemona’s real team as the secret final boss on the level of Red or Steven from past games

[@diersteinjulien6773]

there's a video out there describing how her team would turn out, and it's another level of brutal. To the point I wish the devs see it and implement it in DLCs

[@rascal3554]

...

[@guyk768]

@@diersteinjulien6773 What's the name of the video and channel?

[@patchmoulton5438]

@@diersteinjulien6773 I wish they would have just put it in the game to begin with.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

@@guyk768 The New HARDEST Pokemon Battle - Nemona Postgame Superboss Guide / by Imported Cheese kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZ3IcoWHpbynrcU

[@scrittle]

Wait, people called Nemona a Mary Sue? With how Pokemon games go, she's defeatable. Not a Mary Sue.

[@yank3305]

People don't, thats the thing with Mangakamen now, he pulls stuff out of his ass

[@SuperYoshiMan]

@@yank3305 did you not watch the video, he said Nemona has the *grounds* to become a Mary Sue, but the game's writing is so good she isn't and is likable

[@phantom-X2086]

Could Blue have the grounds to be a Gary Stu? His grandfather is a scientist known globally around the world, he was always a step ahead of you in the game and became champion. He was even always insulting and taunting you the player throughout the whole game. It was when he loses that his whole world came crashing down, he basically had a fit. Then Oak comes in and tells him he's disappointed in how he treated his Pokemon and that's how he lost.

[@yank3305]

@@SuperYoshiMan still don't understand to use Nemona as an example for a Mary Sue

[@SuperYoshiMan]

@@yank3305 she's more of a counter example. She is an example of someone who *could* have been a Mary Sue, but she isn't because of the characterization. She's an example of how to make a strong female character correctly

[@rupertdriggs8104]

also for jotaro there's the setting context for why he might become more introverted and prickly. it was 1980 and he was only half Japanese. and used to be a model student nerd... he definitely got Hella bullied until he beat ass imo. he's still nice under the prickly layer and it doesn't even need you to be that observant to notice.

[@granmastersword]

he is what you could describe a tsundere. Deep down a good man, but maintains a punk, cold, stoic persona to not show weakness to the bullies and later on villains

[@rupertdriggs8104]

@@granmastersword yeah male tsundere characters are great since theyre more "leave me tf alone" rather than beating you to death every second lol

[@A.S._Trunks]

But he was super popular with girls in school, no?

[@granmastersword]

@@A.S._Trunks that's likely after adopting his bad boy punk persona, which made him attractive with the school girls

[@A.S._Trunks]

@@granmastersword Oh right he was actually super nice before in his backstory.

[@alexgreer6336]

Ash: loves Pokémon battles and it is his main goal Nemona: lives breathes sleeps and thinks Pokémon battles Goku: *HIS ORGANS ARE FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER BESIDES HIS BRAIN WHO HIDES BECAUSE IT IS ALMOST COMPLETELY DESTROIED*

[@kotykoty7848]

so Goku is braindead?

[@alexgreer6336]

@@kotykoty7848 More recent Goku yes

[@SleepyBrady]

​@@kotykoty7848Ultra instinct is the ability to literally fight without thinking.

[@Petrico94]

Jotaro is a lot more interesting with the information he's based on Clint Eastwood. It's weird he's just a highschooler able to pull wins out of his ass but his stand's ability is basically to win.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

*HES A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT?!*

[@Petrico94]

@@cosmicspacething3474 oh yeah Araki likes to parody Fist of the North Star's muscly designs in early parts. He tones it down even in part 2 and Josuke is more of a fit average build.

[@littlekuribohimposte]

@@Petrico94 And by Part 5 all his boys are twinks

[@an0rmalp3rson70]

@@littlekuribohimposte in part 7 and 8 everybody are model's

[@joegun4259]

@@an0rmalp3rson70 gyro is a sexy as mfer

[@thewerdna]

Honestly Jotaro is way more interesting considering how a very convincing argument can be made that he acts the way he does due to being on the autism spectrum. I am not joking, there is a description by Araki of him that states Jotaro is constantly frustrated and pissed off because he feels like people should be able to tell what he feels and what his emotions are just by looking at him. Which considering this is when Jotaro is the stoic brick that he is, indicates someone with massive issues with interacting with other people. Thus being the punk he became was really someone who struggled to interact emotionally with the people around him due to mental divergence lashing out in frustration.

[@momogasi7930]

Add to that how blunt and simple Star Platinum is, a simple and clear expression of Jotaro’s feelings, and it really starts to make sense. Even Time Stop can be a metaphor for Jotaro learning how to adapt to situations better, he gains the ability right as he communicates his emotions, being pissed off, with DIO, something he kept to himself up until that point.

[@enigmatic2878]

Punchy boy

[@kylepessell1350]

Interesting perspective. Being on the spectrum myself, I guess that would explain how I never seemed to have any trouble picking up on what his feelings were and was always as confused and frustrated as he was when it was called out by other characters for his lack of communication and acknowledgement of social norms.

[@TheLimeCrimes]

So glad there's someone with taste in this comments section. When I first watched part 3 I was blown away by how much Jotaro (And even Kakyoin + Polnareff) reminded me of myself and other autistic people in my life. Especially when I was around his age.

[@basedimperialism]

Your theory is entirely wrong, though. Jotaro has consistently shown an extremely developed ability to read others' emotions (The D'arby brothers in particular), as well as being extremely adept at working through new situations (i.e. literally almost every Stand battle where he 300 IQ's his way around the enemy). I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he's annoyed by people not being able to read his emotions, when he himself was able to manipulate a master gambler into having a mental breakdown. The ONLY thing that backs up your claim is that he isn't very outwardly emotive-- which, I might add, is NOT exclusively to people on the autism spectrum. In fact, pretty much all men during the time Part 3 takes place would have been expected to be rather stoic. Jotaro just happens to be moreso than others. Other than that, Jotaro shows no signs of being autistic or being on the autism spectrum. In fact, considering the evidence I've provided, it's essentially impossible for him to be on the spectrum due to several personality traits being directly opposite of those exhibited by those on the spectrum. Jotaro is a classic 'Tsundere' persona-- Hard, stoic exterior, but a heart of gold inside. Easily showcased by how often he acts rude towards his mother, but is willing to go halfway across the earth and risk his life numberous times just to save her life. Sorry, dude. That's just how it is. Not everyone who isn't painfully average is on the spectrum.

[@warwulf1889]

Nemona is definitely an interesting first among your rivals. Instead of being a rookie just like you, she's already a seasoned vet who already possesses many of her own pokemon and rotates her party based on our progress.

[@silvermknight]

I'm gonna lump Velma from Velma as a Mary Sue. You can't tell me that character is not a power fantasy/wish fulfillment from the author.

[@mattdarrock666]

Duh! The creator made Velma into a mini version of herself. Not as badly in 'I'm not Starfire'' though. There was 0 subtility. Even negative amount of it...

[@hellomoto3275]

@@mattdarrock666 damn you just made me remember that comic and holy its so bad

[@mattdarrock666]

@@hellomoto3275 Sorry...

[@user-wn3wv5bx5e]

...she actually is. At first I didn't think she was considering how awful her character is, and usually people want to present themselves as likable, but then I realized that Mindy thought that this sarcastic, 'sucker punch the haters' attitude was likable and right. The most damning thing about this is that Velma wasn't even that snarky...at least, before Mystery Inc. Most of the time people just assumed she was snarky since she's highly intelligent and her humor was more sarcastic - she naturally intimidates people. Yet she still has soft moments where she freely expresses shyness and basfulness, such as that Johnny Bravo episode. And even then that shyness didn't overtake her intelligence. She knows when to set aside those feelings and when to entertain it. So I'm a bit upset that they turned her to the typical intelligent asshole that gets humbled down the more she's put into reiterations.

[@TheChoujinVirus]

proof of that? Cuz I could say the same about others like Alucard

[@castform7]

I definitely think you hit a nail on Nemona. Her strength as a trainer and hyper fixation on battles is in the same breath endearing to most and not very appealing to others. Arven and Penny both have their qualms with her in opposition to my fondness of her and most people have to remind her to either chill out or read a room. In general, I think the game did a very good job of highlighting both her positive and negative traits as a character. She's probably the least complex character in the game but I think somehow she's my favourite (probably cause she reminds me of Ash in a couple ways). Also I would like to agree on how ROBBED we were of fighting Nemona's real team. I found her final vicrory Road battle very fun (especially after that massive pile of disappointment Geeta) but now I feel like she's still hiding her trump cards. I wanna see those probably level 80 monsters she has in that back pocket.

[@bestaround3323]

As it turns out, she has a team with perfect EVs, beneficial IVs, smart held items, beneficial natures, and competitive move pools. Wouldn't that be fun? A champion who uses all of the options at their disposal?

[@clayxros576]

I wouldn't be surprised if Game Freak is holding off Nemona's battle for DLC so they can watch the game's Meta develop and hand craft a team that actually kicks.

[@edwarddexfall9241]

To me, a Mary sue is deeply tied into the story and the way it treats them. A character who is a Mary sue in one setting/story may not be in another. All I'd ask is that they struggle and learn something or they fail and fall. Mary sues are bad because they erase all conflict and tension from the story.

[@iamabucket13]

I wouldn't necessarily say being deeply tied to the story is a bad thing, rather it's when a character's motivation, backstory, and/or development take a backseat to the plot that makes them a Mary Sue. Although I think that's what you mean anyway, I just wanted to add clarification.

[@ektran4205]

@@iamabucket13 deeply tied to being a self insert of the writer

[@Nu_Merick]

I got late into the game and decided to actually go to classes in mesagoza. Bumping into nemona and seeing her fail to make friends bc of her status is pretty sad. Ppl absolutely want nothing to do with her 🥺 I think she really just wants a genuine friend who keeps up with her. It grew onto me. She pushes the player to get better and she is genuinely happy when you beat her unlike many IRL friends who can be jealous in a situation where u succeed and they don't. there coulda been more story added to it or find nemona in some random spots and it triggers cutscenes about her and her backstory(near gyms) but yea. She's not as bad as I thought.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

If you go all the way through Nemona's story, including the endgame, her story is pretty sad (though not on Arven's level). She's just a kid from a rich family who is really lonely because her family is always away, and she's too competitive so it puts most kids at odds with her

[@guyk768]

@@shizachan8421 I agree and I appreciated the themes with Nemona, Arven, and Penny in Pokémon Scarlett and Violet because it's related to real life and genuine.

[@enigmatic2878]

She's also relatable. One time, I downloaded a simple fighting game, some of my classmates saw me play and they wanted to play with me. Whenever it was my turn to play against aomeone, they think that the match has already been decided. I don't win all of the time, the game presents enough randomness, and me being dumb to lose a couple of times. But still, at some point when I wanted to play with the only guy that remembers the game he said "Nah, it won't be exciting if i always lose", I forced him to play and I won. Again. And again. And again. And i lost because of a train. And i won again. There i realized that he was right, when you're at the peak with no one higher or at the same level... you cah't go up anymore. Eventually I got used to just watching AI fight another AI because the outcome is random trying to ignore fact that I'm the only one who really wants to play.

[@railroader2431]

Mary Sue and Gary Stu are... volatile terms nowadays, and yeah, one of those terms that have lost a lot of meaning. You have characters who actually are Mary Sues like Rey and deserve to be condemned as such. But then you have people applying the term to whoever they dislike, and those are the people who've killed the meaning of the term.

[@AincradKnightNatlis]

I've seen this overused so heavily in the KZbin and anime communities that I genuinely can't take most claims seriously anymore. It really has become "I dislike this character, but can't think of any good evidence to defend my stance, so I'll just claim they're this trope" or "the character is competent and slightly powerful". I've been wanting this term to die ever since people started using it for literally any character that can handle themselves in a battle or are just smart.

[@kanekikingstorm2113]

I’d argue that Revan from the old republic was a more noteworthy example of a Mary Sue

[@MisterHeroman]

Nobody has ever called Nemona and Jotaro mary/gary Sues.

[@yank3305]

@@MisterHeroman calling Nemona a Mary Sue is so dumb, like out of all the characters you choose her? Because she's the new popular girl? She's a rival in pokemon and like the others are made to lose to you to progress through the game, And don't get me started on the Jotaro hate

[@JohnDoe-pc3uk]

@@AincradKnightNatlis Amen. A character can have multiple scenes of weakness and negativity followed up by one cool, badass scene and people will go "Omg, what a mary sue / gary stu"

[@Chris-zq8fj]

Mary Sue's can work when it's in a comedy. Loid from Spy Famly is a borderline Gary Stu but that's kinda sorta the joke.

[@icarue993]

Hmm... interesting. And it kinda works because Anya doesn't care he is a spy and Yor is too naive. Here's my weird counter, we know Loid (Yor's husband, Anya's father) is a Gary Stu. Twilight is also a Gary Stu. BUT who is the guy behind the mask? For me the person behind the mask paints the idea that Loid is a loving husband and Twilight is the ultimate spy, but we barely know anything of the person's personals drives and needs. There are cracks in Twilight's and Loids facades, giving the idea that for more that he plans, there are unexpected outcomes. We also get peeks as for when the man behind the mask monologues about world peace and why he wants a peaceful world when he sees Anya play or Yor being happy. What I am saying is this: as a spy, the man has many masks. Loid and Twilight are Gary Stus because he wants them to be. But we cannot really judge him if he is or not based on his masks (Loid/Twilight).

[@mray4784]

@@icarue993 Interesting indeed.

[@BlossomPathOnStage15]

Is Loid a Gary Stu though? Sure he always got perfect at his job but it's more because of his upbringing (War Orphan), personal goal (To stop war at all cost) and also the training he had with Handler. Apparently the training Handler put him through was so brutal he had PTSD just remembering it.

[@knightshade2654]

@@BlossomPathOnStage15 ​Gary/Mary Stus often have some sort of tragic backstory to make them more endearing to the audience and somewhat justify their perfection. I adore Spy x Family and consider it as one of my favorite mangas, but Twilight is definitely a Gary Stu. Whenever there is narrative tension, the question is less if Twilight can succeed but if the people he is working with can avoid slowing him down. Just look at the tennis tournament arc; there was never any question in that Twilight could win, with the conflict coming from if Nightfall could avoid letting her love for Twilight get in the way of the mission; the back of the volume for this arc even says such.

[@JohnDoe-pc3uk]

It's more of a Saitama type situation where he would be a Gary Stu if the story was different. Saitama would be a gary stu if OPM was a direct shonen where Saitama has to fight various threats to the earth. But instead it's about him searching for a worthy opponent despite being so OP himself. Likewise with Loid: the story isn't just spy work, but also him having to manage his unruly family and keep up appearances. That's where things get really tough

[@kookio4284]

I can probably explain Nemona’s battle lust. It can really be chopped up to: She’s f***ing lonely. Okay hear me out, she’s the best battler in school, comes from a rich family, and is the Student council president. How exactly do you approach someone like that without it sounding awkward. The story confirms that people detest her for her success so it would only make sense if she’s a character with no friends. The only way for her to get much natural interaction with people is through battling because otherwise, people will never approach her. It also explains why she’s so clingy to you as the MC as you are the “new kid” moving in, a person who has no comprehension of the weight behind Nemona’s titles, and you’re moving in right next to her. Its literally a once in a lifetime opportunity for her, so she clings onto you like a leech. That’s my theory anyways, and it makes me like Nemona a lot more than any other rival we’ve had in years.

[@John-Stark]

No wonder she's memed as a Yandere...

[@CarissaNomadic]

The game even nudges at least something like this a little, too! IIRC you can ask Arven about asking Nemona for help, but he brushes it off because of how she's unapproachable, and at a few points it's mentioned that she's essentially lonely as a battler because she can't get into a good fight, but because you're finally here and because of what you can do in battles, that she's able to get what she was missing again.

[@Kill_peter]

More like a yandera

[@emmychansuper]

I actually agree with you with Jotaro, he isn't a Gary Stu... He's just a badass teenage boy who's based on Clint Eastwood. As someone who has watched Jojo's in May-June in 2022, he's my favorite Jojo as a whole.

[@kingoftheclams2887]

You just wait until you see Johnny

[@AmericanBrit9834]

Johnny? Seriously? Giorno is right there.

[@kingoftheclams2887]

@@AmericanBrit9834 well it's either a gay italian mafia boss or somebody whose first instict with a magical rotation power is to consider the effect it will have with spaghetti. They both work really well but... I don't really know. Johnny just works better with his Jobro. They have good banter

[@AmericanBrit9834]

@@kingoftheclams2887 I know, I don't really consider Johnny a Gary Sue due to his personality flaws and the fact that he absolutely had to work for his powers. Giorno I do but even then it's like a Gary Sue 0.5. He is one but nowhere near as bad as other examples in other series.

[@kingoftheclams2887]

@@AmericanBrit9834 i wasn't talking about gary sues. The commenter was talking about their favourite jojo

[@HyperMoeMan]

Superman is a perfect example of a mary sue/gary stu done properly. His is not a struggle to be the best, but to try to fit in as a god among mortals.

[@HyperMoeMan]

@Kekyoin really? That's the best you got? if you are going to insult someone please be original.

[@HyperMoeMan]

@Kekyoin so you're lazy, just like every wannabe writer then.

[@HyperMoeMan]

@Kekyoin wow a repeat. like that does anything but prove me right.

[@HyperMoeMan]

@Kekyoin Because I am right about Super Man? why does that make me a clown? why do people want lazy boring unimaginative shit?

[@RouroniRockman]

I don't fully agree with the assessment of Superman as a Mary Sue. Sue-like qualities? Sure. Full-on Sue? Not so much. If he were perfect enough to be a Sue I don't think that he'd need to have a secret identity. There's also the fact that things don't always work out perfectly for him. He couldn't save Pa Kent in many continuities, for example. A number of things that are considered Sue-traits I'd argue are attributed to his nature as the superhero archetype.

[@Dragmiredraws]

The reason they didn’t make a team for Nemona is because the devs didn’t wanna have to think about a lv100 Perfect IV team with perfect battle synergy…..that’s also have to be a double battle….It’d be too fun for the players. A REAL challenge, unlike that Cinderace

[@malikpierre-louis3343]

Cyntia from bdsp cought cought

[@MugenEclipse]

I mean these are the same people that had geeta end on a glimmora instead of start with it and not have a kingambit not be her last mon when its signiture ability is at its best like that

[@obits3]

Play Nemona’s level 65 team at level 65 yourself without looking up her team first. The Pokémon games are actually challenging, but most people spoil the challenge by using internet aids, spamming trainer items, or over leveling.

[@A.S._Trunks]

@@obits3 I know a streamer who basically spammed battle items against literally every slightly difficult battle that they encountered. And they're chat was constantly insulting the game's difficulty too. Like you said. 99% of these people would lose hard if they couldn't over level and spam battle items every 5 seconds.

[@enterurnamehere27]

@@A.S._Trunks TBF, it's also the game mechanics that make those those things to be able to get. So it's still the Dev's fault for not finding a way to not make over leveling etc a thing

[@jin1p777]

To be honest, i always viewed Star Platinum's ability, Star Finger, as the addition to his main power; precious vision. It is established early in the story that Star Platinum has inhuman sense of vision. He can easily see a target miles away. When people see something in a far distance and want to show the direction they use index and middle finger to show where it is. Just as Star Platinum does when he's about to use Star Finger. Or maybe I'm just overthinking things.

[@addison_v_ertisement1678]

Do you mean "precise" vision?

[@bmxgu2361]

Jotaro and Nemona are both characters that appear one sided but have small character moments that give them away. For example how Jotaro's mom notices that he still checks in on her health and is willing to help others like Kakyoin even if he seems like a jerk. You can see the younger Jotaro his mom depicts within him. Around his mom we can see him feeling self doubt when she's hurt. The meaningful connections he needed to break out of his shell of pushing people away after his dad left is what he got with the stardust crusaders, the morio heroes, and his wife and daughter. Jotaro might have more subtle characterization that might appear less but for Nemona she might as well be an actual human being. If you take the time to listen to her during the final quest or after the post game in the academy we hear from her that she comes from a wealthy family she had expectations for grades and met them. However what she came to love most was battling. She decided to really dive in deep with it too. However she realized that her natural talent for it also put an invisible wall between her and others. She like Jotaro seeked meaningful relationships. She tells us that the reason why she is so talkative is because she wishes to break that wall of uneasiness between her and others. She slowly started to go easy on people she knew but began to lose the fun in her passion. When she meets the MC she finally finds someone who is not only not intimated by her but also is able to give her an equal battle as well as a friend.

[@carlossique9604]

Marry Sues will continue to exist. We can only hope that the person who is writing them can at least make them entertaining and not annoying or garbage like other characters of the nature.

[@tedscheett9420]

"A ham sandwich could beat Geeta" Lechonk: Bro, what the hell?

[@sev1120]

For Nemona, I have a theory as to why you don't battle her real team: Because her real, strong team is all level 100, competitively trained and raised Pokémon with like 4 pseudo legendaries. There's no way a playthrough team will beat that

[@bestaround3323]

SUPER BOSS! SUPER BOSS! SUPER BOSS!

[@Pokemanmon]

Pneumonia is actually my favorite rival since black and white, and the reason why is that she’s absolutely insane. Take Hop, he seems rational, but is obsessed with appearing every other route, I even made jokes he was a stalker in my first play through, but Nemona is actually insane, and on top of that she only appears about every other gym, she never randomly appears in a titan plot line wanting to battle, and I appreciate game freak is listening to our comments and actually turning the rivals insane as an excuse as to why they do what they do.

[@MariOmor1]

I can confirm, my favorite rival is pneumonia

[@archangel4868]

that conclusion really makes me think about the differences between judging characters from videogames and not from videogames. i don't know if you would be up for it but a deeper analysis on how differently the two are judged would be very engaging.

[@amirgarcia547]

I’d say this’s overall a solid and well-made video breaking down Mary Sues, per usual. And certainly agree that both Jotaro and Nemona don’t fit this mold. Starting with Jotaro, people often mistake the stoic, collected person as being someone without flaws, which isn’t true at all. It’s just a personality type, and this’s shown perfectly in the fight with D’Arby where Jotaro is able to win by simply bluffing and causing D’Arby to be so shell-shocked that he can’t continue. Whereas it’s revealed right after that Jotaro had a terrible hand and could’ve actually lost if D’Arby didn’t catch his bluff. And even if he beats plenty of baddies, he still has his limits due to Star Platinum have a very short range, as well as needing to outsmart most of his opponents rather than simply punching them to death due to him fighting other stand users with their own deadly abilities, as you said. As for Nemona, despite being a super strong, Champion rank trainer, I wouldn’t call her a Mary Sue since instead of being cocky and arrogant like Blue, she just simply loves battling. And so having a new rival like you who actually has the potential to match her skills makes her excited and actually have something to strive towards, which kinda makes her an interesting deconstruction of a Pokémon rival due to being someone who’s already on top that you’re eventually able to fight without them holding back. Calling her a female Goku isn’t a wrong moniker, as she’s very impetuous and single-minded much like Goku is, but isn’t treated as this perfect trainer and is instead just a happy-go-lucky girl who happens to be strong. And while she isn’t the deepest character out there, and arguably has the least amount of development or characterization out of the three leads, she works very well for what she is.

[@YayaFeiLong]

Mary Sue is a trope, and tropes are tools. There's a "wrong" and "right" way to use almost every trope. Including Mary Sue. Example 1: the Doom Slayer from Doom. He has almost no negative qualities, he is respected and/or feared by everyone, and the Doom universe constantly bends over backwards to emphasize his badassery. That qualifies him as a Mary Sue under just about every interpretation of the term. And yet he's one of the most beloved video game protagonists of all time. Why does it work? Because he's the player character in an over-the-top power-fantasy action shooter game. When you play Doom, you're not watching the Doom Slayer do badass shit -- *you* are the Doom Slayer, and *you* are the one doing badass shit. Example 2: Elysia from Honkai Impact 3rd. She has almost no negative qualities, she is respected and/or adored by everyone, and...well, to avoid spoilers let's just say she's _super_ important to the lore of the game. That qualifies her as a Mary Sue under almost every interpretation of the term. But in the year-and-a-half or so since she was first introduced she quickly skyrocketed to being one of the most beloved characters in the fanbase. Why does it work? Well first of all, she's really hot and really flirty. But more importantly, she's a truly kind and loving person whose unrelenting cheery optimism shines in stark contrast to the bleak and wretched world of Honkai Impact 3rd. ...also the fact that she's long dead (not a spoiler, it's one of the first things you learn about her). People tend to be more accepting of Mary Sue characters when they're already dead. Tropes are tools. There are very, very few inherently bad tropes, and Mary Sue ain't one of them.

[@spaixie]

oh my god thank you

[@tvesrb]

Yup. It can definitely work in stories where relatability isn't necessary. Particularly ones where the development is external and the protagonist is the guiding force.

[@enterurnamehere27]

Mary Sue is one of them. Idk about Honkai Impact characters, but DS ain't a "Mary Sue" character TBF. Canonically speaking, Doom Slayer doesn't have much of a characteristic in the first place, plus, the plot doesn't revolve too much around him

[@YayaFeiLong]

@@enterurnamehere27 I'm sorry, have you even played the Doom games? Basically _everything_ in the plot and lore connects back to the Doom Slayer's badassery in some way. He's the only one the demons fear, he's the savior of humanity, he's the last rightful king of the Night Sentinels, and he's the one who single-handedly brings down both Heaven and Hell. All within a single game no less. That's about as "Mary Sue" as it gets. My point is _that's not a bad thing._ Again, "Mary Sue" is a trope, and tropes are tools. It's a trope that's often done poorly to be sure, but it _can_ be done right. The Doom Slayer is the perfect example of that.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

Pretty sure Doomguy is best described as a walking power fantasy instead of a character.

[@SapphireLibra3]

Yara yare daze... I never once thought of Jotaro as a Gary Stu. He was just super sensitive and afraid to show his emotions. Hence the tough guy act.

[@for4thwind264]

Ive allways thought og spotting a marry sue in the same manor looking for a black hole: you look for a world and its challanges being warped around a figue, and at the center is the sue. A mary sue is a lable to describe when the challanges faced by the Sue are somehow cheepened by the author. If a character, such a Jotaro, is able to face (mostly) meaningful challanges, and overcome them in a way that doesnt invalidate the stakes, then that character isnt a sue.

[@nuotatorre8741]

So if I understand a comment corctly. A charcter to truly ba a Mary Sue needs to be at the center of their world, and wrap the rules of that world around themself to the point than in makes it seem like the trial they face are not even a challange for them. So let's say than a Character it's a God of some sort at the center of it's universe lore wise, but not evry single victory of theirs it's given to them on a silver plate, even if they do eventualy came out on top, and each time they need something more to win, such as a new power or a new ally or even to just find the confidance to go on, would they still count as Mary Sues?

[@for4thwind264]

@@nuotatorre8741 If the manor in which the character completes said challenges appears to stick to the rules of the world and common sense, I would say that is not a Mary sue. I mean, we have the character Gojo from Jujitsu Kaisan, who is essentially the most powerful being in the universe. And yet, he doesn't feel like a Mary Sue, since he still exists within the world, and yet the story is still able to have tension, due to him still having limitations.

[@nuotatorre8741]

@@for4thwind264 Ok thank you so much.

[@Morbiscrazygirl4447u]

Mary sues really should've ended before they became prominent in writing.

[@HydragonofDeath]

If they are utilized in stories where comedy is the point, then it can technically work well.

[@-Ryu]

See, the reason I think jotaro isn't actually a Mary Sue is because as time goes on, you notice the trauma of part 3 is getting to him. He's weaker, less confident, and slowly it cripples him to a point of tragedy in part 6. He's not some unsung hero who slowly builds up his strength. He's a falling star who constantly finds himself alone in the world, gradually losing his grip on the things he holds dear, and in a last ditch effort, he throws everything away just to save the one thing he can't afford to lose.

[@lilsquiddle1964]

I love the part where Giorno dies about twice, but he was actually in another body, or he didn't really die and his stand evolved so that the other guy would die infinitely.

[@mattwo7]

6:56 "A Stand appears behind the user of Stand as a *_persona_* or an object" Don't ease your pace, 'cuz enemy's brutal / Moment of truth, There ain't no truce / You're the only one, one world, one love / But the battle goes on, Shadows of Mass Destruction

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

It's a typo, lol.

[@samuelmachado8330]

Oh yeah baby baby baby baby

[@flameindigo8035]

Ooh yeah, ba da da da da ba da da da da baby baby!

[@PelemusMcSoy]

Yare Yare Daze - Do you understand?! In regards to people calling characters we don't like Mary Sues, I'm surprised I haven't heard the most recent version of She-Hulk being called a Mary Sue. I would say one character I think is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) is Saitama from One Punch Man...but that's the point. Here's a guy who got to be the powerful hero he wanted to be (what most people assume Mary Sues and Gary Stus are) allowing him to solve any problem in a single blow, and he's bored out of his mind and borderline depressed. What makes the show work, however, is we focus on other characters and their struggles (especially you, Mumen Rider, you wonderful man) and how they would respond to such a powerful being. Then again, his bored demeanor and peoples' general dislike of him could negate the Stu Status. Also, unrelated to Mary Sues, but can we take a moment to appreciate Nemona? She's one of the better rivals because of how she's testing you and pushing you to be better throughout the game, and she's clearly pulling her punches. As you said, though, it would be nice to actually face her at her best.

[@bestaround3323]

I agree about the story focusing not on Saitama but how others react to him and grow around him. I think we all know the real protagonist is Mumen Rider.

[@calsalitra4689]

I would say that Saitama isn't a Mary Sue not because the story doesn't focus on him, but because the challenges aren't something he can fix with brute force: for all of his power, he doesn't have anything to use it on. As you say, he's bored and depressed. That in and of itself becomes his challenge, and when he gets story focus, its mostly about getting friends and things to care about that aren't fighting.

[@HydragonofDeath]

The reason why She-Hulk isn't called a Mary Sue, well, until arguably the end of the show BS, is that she's just a really badly adapted character who is extremely unlikeable.

[@mastertadakatsu]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, with Lightning in the 13 sequels is that SE transformed her into a fashion model.

[@TheEmperorHyperion]

Soldier, Goddess... _Louis Vuitton Model._ This is why people like Senator Tifa Lockhart or Y'shtola Rhul more.

[@Baddest_of_Men]

I would argue that there's actually nothing wrong with being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. The issue arises when you're a boring character. For instance, Tendou Souji from Kamen Rider Kabuto does have some of the characteristics of this trope, but I was always so entertained by him that I didn't mind it at all. Ukiyo Ace from Kamen Rider Geats also seems to be going in that direction as well, albeit going on a slightly different path from the former. I was actually half expecting you to use one of them as an example. Edit: To add an example of a Gary Stu that I dislike, Kira Yamato from Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny. This man is written to be genuinely invincible while also being propped up as the moral arbiter of the series, especially in the latter. He just isn't fun to watch, especially when he's forcefully written as the new protagonist of the latter show roughly midway through it.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

You have a good point.

[@leoultimaupgraded9914]

Ukiyo Ace could be considered in the line of Gary Stu, I just hate these terms nowadays so I personally wouldnt call him one

[@Baddest_of_Men]

@@leoultimaupgraded9914 I did pick both him and Tendou specifically because in spite of their status as such, I do very much enjoy seeing them on-screen.

[@user-wn3wv5bx5e]

Loid from Spyxfamily is a gary stu that's likable. He basically has the core points of being a gary stu: Practically perfect at his job even with no or little prior practice (especially at that tennis arc - and how did he learn how to master making masks so realistic that people can't distinguish them from the real thing??), loved by everyone (such as the co-workers at the hospital. Again, making even one mask would probably take hours, and he still has to go through missions and assess his family life. How does he have the time or mental stability to spend with these people normally??) and he's practically so flawless that the organization _loves_ using him. Here's the thing, even if he was perfect, he doesn't enjoy it. Genuinely doesn't. He has such a realistic way of reacting to these situations; tired, and when you feel like giving up, you gaslight yourself to think that this was necessary. And that leads to being flawless - He's flawless in a natural sense. They don't make his angelic appearance superficial, neither does the author make it the entire reason why you should like Loid. He still has moments where he admits that all the good he brings could never compare to the detrimental reality of the situation. Basically, the author makes this gary-stu and more unrealistically convenient situations as the comedic aspect, whereas the more serious topics are treated with genuine respect. I mean the time where Loid messed up could've actually costed him his life, and despite the comedic aspect, the mangaka treated this situation seriously. He set aside that picture perfect trait of Loid to convey the more serious side of war, which is great.

[@ORLY911]

You can have a "the perfect man" sort of character without him being a stu, as competent as Souji is, he makes mistakes still and his self absorbed personality is his own mantra to try and improve himself and coping with the loss of his parents. (keeping it general, up to you if you prefer the movie or tv version of the backstory lol). Ultimately, he's still just one Rider and needs the help of Kagami and the other riders.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

Juat a random thought but... Isnt what makes a good character conflict and struggle, and how they play against it?

[@Underworlder5]

i agree. characters need to have some struggle, whether internal or external. strength is a not a lack of weakness, but how these weaknesses are handled, or what you can do in spite of them

[@connorharnage6697]

This is an amazing video! I use a lot of your videos for advice in my writing and one of my biggest fears is making a Mary Sue/Gary Stu so your input is really helpful

[@xdfeverdream8122]

Namona isn't a Mary Sue. Just like Goku she just through her passions accidentally understands the gameplay mechanics. .-.

[@mattwo7]

7:48 Well obviously, everyone knows Rohan Kishibe is the self insert lol

[@cgkase6210]

I'd say my favorite definition of "Mary Sue" is "The universe bends unnaturally to prop up the character"

[@jessicaplane9231]

I agree with you on korra but I have to point out that korra as a character had a lot of expectation by the fandom after the original series and how well the series and characters were written. On Goku; it can depends on the series, episode and if we're taking the dub into account. Dragonball is in the same boat as Pokemon to me. Where Goku is the face of the series and is 'needed' to keep going.

[@ParadoxBrony]

Excellent work as usual Kamen. Stay awesome.

[@Zetact_]

The definition I use for Mary Sue is "a character who the author favors to the extent that it detriments the story." Which is a very vague definition but it applies a catch-all to every form of Mary Sue under the sun and doesn't fixate on specific traits (like some people say "everyone likes them" which doesn't need to be the case, or "they're story-breakingly powerful" which doesn't have to be the case, or even "they don't have meaningful flaws" which I think also does not need to be the case). And it's also why people have debates about what is or isn't, or who is or isn't, a Mary Sue. Because the second half - "it detriments the story" - is a line that differs from person to person. The main issue is that it's a fairly common type of character even in good fiction, but we haven't added to our literary lexicon a clear phrase that signifies it. It's like "anti-hero" (which even has people debate on what is or isn't an antihero) or "trickster" in that it derived from a very specific type of character and some people believe that the original definition should be the only one. There are some people who say that a character can't be a Mary Sue if there is even a single character in the story who doesn't like them, even if the character who dislikes them is presented as the worst of the worst, bottom-feeding, incompetent scumbag. There are people who say that a character who loses a single time can't be a Mary Sue, even if their loss is under absurd circumstances like being teamed up on by 20 other characters while they haven't slept in a week and having some sort of absurd outside interference change what "would" have been a win for the Sue into a loss. There are people who say that even "too noble, pure and good for this cruel world" counts as a flaw that makes a character "not a Mary Sue." It's largely because we haven't come up with a better term for the type of character. We've kept using this ancient term that points to a single character rather than having a different term that captures the overarching concept.

[@tymonsulimastalman1727]

In my opinion, the best definition of a Mary Sue is: no negative consequences for the character of her actions and underpinned by absurdly powerful abilities in relation to the world.

[@Newspaper.Ojisan]

Thank you for mentioning stoicism. People do often say "the character is bland bcs he/she is stoic, emotionless" which sometimes dismissing what those characters' reason for being stoic. Some characters need a certain degree of stoicism because of their duties and/or their past made them like that. Not every characters need to wear their hearts on their sleeve.

[@Underworlder5]

i write stories in my free time, and one of my characters is a stoic warrior. basically the calm, rational, no nonsense type who keeps his cool in the heat of battle. i explain that mainly by him having a very rough upbringing that forced him to toughen up (akin to a spartan). i also balance it through having quiet moments where he can let his guard down, allowing you to see how he feels even through his unchanging expression, and showing that he is painfully aware that he practically does not exist off the battlefield, and has no idea how to talk about anything that has nothing to do with combat (allowing some lighthearted moments for an otherwise deadly serious character) basically, even on a stoic character, you can still tell their personality. a character does not need to cry to show sadness, or smile to show happiness. that can be communicated through their actions

[@Newspaper.Ojisan]

@@Underworlder5 right? stoic characters are more subdued which can be easily missed sadly.

[@xenophacilus5895]

Nemona is that competetive Smogon player Casuals don't wanna go near to because her style of "playing the game" is just too overkill for them

[@ZombieKCl]

The best definition for a sue/stu that I could come up with is: a character that has high ratio of forced likability moments where the the author is trying to disingenuously manipulate the audience, display dissonance moments where a characters shown bad actions are displayed as much beater than it is and or is opposed by forced hateable strawmen.

[@FieryMeltman]

Jotaro's timestop was foreshadowed by the fact that Jonathan's body had a stand that was nearly identical to Joseph's hermit purple. Just like that connection, Jotaro was given a stand nearly identical to DIO's.

[@levievil9220]

How much do you want to bet that Joseph went to his father and went like hey your great grandson needs help my ability ain’t all that useful but yours is and Jonathan being the good man that he his helps

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@levievil9220 In English, please?

[@levievil9220]

@@ChiefMedicPururu I did explain it in English you just couldn’t understand going up to heaven and asking your dad to help with he great grandson against your families greatest enemy DIO

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@levievil9220 Joseph's dad is George II, not Jonathan.

[@levievil9220]

@@ChiefMedicPururu oh wait why does that feel wrong to say

[@ralseedeltaroon9311]

I'll NEVER understand WHY anyone would find Nemona (from PSV) to be a Mary Sue. She isn't strong for the lols. She wasn't born competent; she ALREADY had her journey, she has EXPERIENCE. Plus, her already being a champion before the game's story begins, is an interesting TWIST on the Pokémon-rival formula. It adds a layer of menace to her, and gives the player a motivation to catch-up to her. ALSO, she is neither brash nor overconfident. Despite being a champion she is quite humble, and never condasends the player. She is more of a cheerful Big Sister that encourages the player, and is simultaneously bad-ass.

[@Mangakamen]

... Uh... I said this in the video.

[@ralseedeltaroon9311]

@@Mangakamen uhhh, well this is awkward. Lol should've watched the video first LMAO. sorry my bad.

[@Mangakamen]

S'all good.

[@ralseedeltaroon9311]

@@Mangakamen 👍

[@everettwatsonrazorearcwolf6553]

15:42 As a Squall fan, it definitely hurts when people shat on him for that reason 🥲

[@geardog24]

Jotaro's too cool to be a Mary Sue. He's a Star Sue.

[@VIofCaffeine]

I thought of Nenoma as a parody of Pokémon players who played for *years* because of some of the things she says. She wants to battle newbies or anyone for that matter. Trains multiple Pokémon that she doesn't even use (she mentioned she had to go evolve/train about 10-20 of them at one point). She also learned how to train and battle with Pokémon as time went on. She wasn't Champion in a day's time. I just thought of her as female Goku as well as parody of veteran Pokémon players.

[@SharlaBlades]

The ending message. God does that hit me! I've seen how bad heard mentality an get firsthand. It's good to try and curb it. Even if it's only just a bit.

[@EndThusIAm]

Another thing you can say when it comes to Mary Sues in video games, are the npc characters that can be seen as Writer's Pet, like Liara from Mass Effect. Easier to romance her. Regardless of your relationship she saves Shepard's body. She becomes one of the most powerful people in the galaxy with or without you. You cannot argue with her. You can either be distant or close friends if you didn't romance her. She's the voice of the galaxy if it fell to the Reapers, and was used to hype the announcement for the next game and even had a cameo in Andromeda. Along with many more detailed examples that people with far more time have covered.

[@nobgs4505]

I love how you disproved the one video at the start of the JoJo bit by showing moments where it shows they're more than that. Also the slowdown on "funny cowards" as the shot of Narancia having CUT OFF HIS OWN TOUNGE is great.

[@EatWave]

If one uses the source of the term as the standard, it is a replacement protagonist or new addition to a cast put in place by someone other than the original author(s) whose traits are inconsistent with the setting for the sake of elevating them above the 'legacy' cast members. Those will exist as long as there is corporate creative endeavors with more than one writing crew over their run rather than a single creative team. American super hero books and animated shows are still chock-a-block with them to this day as they will be tomorrow and the day after that.

[@PMbarbieri]

For the Lightning segment, I get the complaints about her dangerously veering into Mary Sue territory, and from a certain point of view, it's true, mostly due to Motomu Toriyama, the games' director, who got way too attached to her, to the point of showing blatant favoritism for her in other games he made (the main character from Mobius Final Fantasy basically faboying over her after just meeting her being an example). HOWEVER. I would argue that, in her own story, she's still not really a Mary Sue. I admit I might be biased here, since I'm one of those strange beasts who actually like Lightning and the FFXIII series, but here's my two cents anyway. The problem with most Mary Sue characters is not that they are simply flawless, but that even if they have flaws or struggles, the universe around them tends to ignore them, and they don't suffer any consequences if they ever make mistakes. This doesn't apply to Lightning, in my opinion: the entire plot of XIII-2 and Lightning Returns is kickstarted by her insecurities and self loathing for inadvertently causing the events of the previous games. I like to see Lightning as a deconstruction of the "strong female character" archetype, in that her stoicism is treated as a huge flaw that leads her to push away others, and the fact that she still cares about them causes problems that bring her and others more suffering and lead her to repress her emotions even more. By the third game, which to be fair was plagued by a horrible translation, she has completely bottled herself up and her repressed emotions manifest as Lumina, and only by accepting her faults and flaws Persona 4 style she is able to get over herself. Not to mention most of the other main characters hate her now for one reason or another, and she has to gain back their trust, sometimes by opening up to them. Sure, she's strong and all, but for a Final Fantasy character that's almost a requirement: it's no different from other FF characters that got new powers from the crystals or gods, including her own companions. TL;DR, Lightning can have some Mary Sue traits, but I see her more as a deconstruction of one at best, similarly to how I see Anakin Skywalker as a deconstruction of one. The FFXIII series has its problems, but Mary Sue isn't one of them.

[@Nerd_Gamer_Buddy]

Omg I love your character!

[@m.3.3.w]

Shout out for having NSR as a clip. Really loved Saya. Great video as always! And Yare Yare Daze! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

[@MrShinoTheBugman]

most recent almost mary su I can think of is in "Bad Guys" the fox mayor. legendary super thief. always right. never challenged. she kind of skirts that line, but as she's not the main character and is more a tool used to challenge the wolf's perspective I think she kind of gets a pass? like she is but not in too bad a way? not sure. would love some other opinions.

[@PMbarbieri]

She at least has the justification of being a more seasoned thief compared to the Bad Guys, and she also makes mistakes during the climax. And most of all, she doesn't hog the spotlight everytime she's onscreen.

[@holty1314]

Nov 2022: Nemona is female Goku Jan 2023: Nemona is Hisoka!!!

[@frankaxe6700]

Man even I felt the pressure of namonas battle spirit and that's saying something and I love battling But it's really cool to have character who represents the eximent of battle like we all have bit dang I wanted to see her real team

[@BlazeNextGen]

Nearly chocked on my food when you said even a Ham Sandwich can beat Geeta, has to be my most favorite comparison I´ve ever heard x)

[@turtato2155]

You could easily find a Gary stu in one of those harem anime where the protagonist is op. There's so many of those

[@diersteinjulien6773]

Pick your average wish fulfillement isekai where the hero gets an overpowered skill and a harem 90% chances he's a Gary Stu

[@Rikrobat]

I've said in conversations before that I don't think Rey is a Mary-Sue simply because she can use abilities without training (for the most part). I thought part of her character (at least originally) was that she had good instincts in using the force. The problem is that most of her growth-be it in mastering her abilities or growing emotionally as a character-frequently happens off-screen or not at all. We don't need a "lifting the ship" thing that happened with Luke; this constant comparison isn't as meaningful as people want it to be. However, we need to see her grow and change through the story, either in ability or as a person (or both even), for her story to feel significant. She's the main character, but we don't see her develop. Her being revealed as Palatine's granddaughter in the 9th movie is more indicative of bad writing and backpedalling because so many people didn't like that her parents were nobodies in the 8th installment. And I feel sort of similarly based on Kamen's point about Lightning being granted her powers just be sleeping for 500 years. It's a boring way to gain powers, but it doesn't make the character a Mary-Sue. Sleeping for 500 years would be a huge paradigm shift and not an easy adjustment for someone, so it is a negative way to gain special abilities. The problem, to me, is that Lightning doesn't seem to express any sort of character development outside of her being granted abilities. And to the point on video games, medium definitely matters. John Wick is absolutely a Mary-Sue character by definition of overpowered, wish fulfillment, and plot-armoured. I've watched all three movies and was eventually exasperated by the amount of injuries this man survives. However, by the end of the third movie, I realized that John Wick being seemingly immune to death isn't necessarily a detriment to the movies if you frame the movies as fun action-packed sequences to marvel at. The narratives proper are fairly standard and, again, Wick should not be alive by this point, but if you're just here to enjoy the spectacle, then the films succeed at the end goal. Thus, a character being a "Mary-Sue" isn't necessarily a bad thing if the medium you're working in provides an entertaining product. Jotaro has M-S rendencies, but it sounds like he's still an entertaining character and the anime itself isn't suffering because of his presence.

[@amirgarcia547]

John Wick being kinda of Gary Stu I feel is pretty intentional since he’s an infamous, formerly retired assassin who’s so noteworthy that he’s been given a nickname called “Baba Yaga.” AKA the Boogeyman. And anyone knows that if they cross them, they’re pretty much good as dead, and so you’re right in that it’s incredibly entertaining to see him just mow through dozens of goons just to kill one person who wronged him. Whether by killing his dog or blowing up his house. The third movie onwards does at least give him a unique dilemma though since due to being ex-communicado, he has every assassin in the city after him and makes it so he barely has anyone to trust or turn to at this point as a result.

[@Rikrobat]

@@amirgarcia547 - Oh absolutely. My bringing him up was to point out that the character being a Mary/Gary-Stu doesn't detract from the overall product of the movies or make them bad. I personally was exasperated at seeing him (mostly) walking off fatal injuries, but really, I don't think people who enjoy the movies are there for realism; they're enjoying the spectacle of Keanu Reeves ass-kicking his way through a wave of threats.

[@eramo607productions6]

@@amirgarcia547 Yeah I was about to say, and even if he was, it doesn’t exactly match up with him being a Gary Stu because he has previous training and years of experience that makes him overpowered. We never saw it, but we believe it because of all the people he’s mowed down. The one thing that makes me feel like John Wick being a Gary Stu rings somewhat hollow is the first movie where his wife died and he was depressed after that. That’s a clear flaw and we got to see him trying to deal with it in the first 10 or 15 minutes of the film. It’s what got me closer to him because that’s a clear vulnerability that people face all the time. It’s when the dog dies is when things turn around and you start to enjoy him killing as much people that stands in his way of killing the one man who killed his last chance of staying happy. It was his vulnerability and his rage that was fueled by vengeance is what felt satisfying to watch him. It’s what carried me throughout the film. I want to see him get the revenge he wanted because the actions of the man who robbed him and killed his dog is what keeps me invested in where the story will lead. Even if he is a Gary Stu, we will obviously still watch and enjoy him killing a bunch of dudes. As for the injuries, it’s fine because again he’s experienced and so he knows what to do in situations where he’d potentially die. Even the first film at the very beginning of the film showed that, until the very end of it where he actually did survive and managed to heal himself a bit. And again, that counts as a vulnerability because it shows he’s still human. He still feels something. Which was enough to steer me away from him being a Gary Stu. Even still, some of the injuries are questionable, but that doesn’t mean it takes away what makes the movies entertaining, which is what matters. So yeah your right that Gary Stu’s don’t exactly take away your enjoyment of a film. John Wick more or less feels like another main character guided through plot. Because obviously he would’ve died which is realistic, but he needed to live in order for stories to be told. Hence the plot.

[@Rikrobat]

@@shizachan8421 - Definitely agree with your interpretation. I understand why people use "Mary-Sue" for Rey's character, but for me, her issues are more the result of weak writing and poor execution of what seemed to start as her story. Instead, Episodes 8 and 9 pivot to be about basically everyone other than Rey. Yes, we learn one aspect about her family (parents were nobodies who abandoned her) and that she feels an odd connection to Kylo because his relationship with his parents is complicated. But she doesn't really grow or change as a person. The reveal that her grandfather is the BIG evil doesn't deepen or complicate her as a person. It's disappointing because there is a lot of wasted potential for her character.

[@Rikrobat]

@@eramo607productions6 - Absolutely. I wouldn't call John Wick a Gary-Stu in the first movie, but by the end of the third movie, his immunity to death and ability to slot nicely into wish fulfillment fantasies of taking down any threat that comes his way? Yeah, he does fit the label a little. The part that really got to me was the end of movie 3, where I watched him get shot off a building, his side smacked a railing, then he struck another bulding, then hit the concrete. And he just walked off as if broken bones and severe internal bleeding don't exist in his reality. XD But even if I was rolling my eyes at the end of movie 3, I fully recognize the value of these movies for their engaging action and audience investment as John Wick tackles any obstacle in his way. And I was all about the first movie's emotional hook; we are hyped to watch Keanu Reeves get revenge on Peter Stomare. As Kamen points out, the term Mary/Gary-Stu has become so diluted and wielded as a sort of insult, rather than it being a helpful way to examine if a character doesn't have meaningful flaws in connection with the story they are in. Does John Wick exhibit some Sue tendencies, sure, but who cares if the movies are entertaining and Wick himself is a character that we want to root for? Even if the John Wick sequels weren't really my thing, I can't deny that I will plop down and watch the 4th movie when it releases.

[@zombiesalmon4997]

Jojo main characters are fun because you know they’re gonna win, you just don’t know HOW they’re gonna win. Glad im subbed

[@jayceallen6530]

Starting the video with “VS sayu” is such a power move, loved playing NSR with my cousin

[@lincolnbeckett8791]

Just as you stand by your point abouts Korra, I still stand by mines that most of what you've said about her has been flat out wrong. Character development is definitely present in her character. She's not the same person at the end of Book 4 like she is in the beginning of book 1. Period. Korra is mainly disliked for not being Aang. Too many Avatar fans went into TLoK with nostalgia bias. Her personality traits (while definitely another reason some people hate her) are not only justified given her background, but are more or less the same traits Zuko had in the earlier books of Avatar. Also, if your gonna call Korra out for her only ass-pull of unlocking the Avatar state at the end of book 1 (which if you know the production behind this show, makes this a very cheap example to use), then the same should apply to Aang for discovering energy bending. Overall, its not my place to say weather you should like Korra or not, but objectivly speaking, she has no reason to be mentioned as much in this video as she is, even as a none example.

[@amirgarcia547]

Agreed, people who act like Korra doesn’t have any development clearly didn’t get past season 1. Which I can get if they didn’t like the show, but you can’t just judge one aspect of a character without looking at them as a whole.

[@daydreamer2257]

Agree with most stuff except the point about a Mary Sue not having it difficult. There is a whole subtype of them that is like 'oh look how terrible she has/had it and is still a good person who always manages to come out at the top despite that and is loved by everyone' that would be excluded by that definition. What I would make that up to is that they never truly lose anything in an even slightly permanent way (while the story is going on. Backstory doesn't count for obvious reasons).

[@zionthedragon8866]

I always break it down to TWO type of Mary sue definitions: -lack of develop character who the universe/plot hands them everything without actually earning it and never have real threats no matter what the plot says. They may even retcon or go against the rules or lore of a universe. -a character who can't be criticized in-game [and in a Meta sense out of game by the fanatics of the character] by anyone, else that person is portrayed in game as wrong, evil, bad, a jerk and is sometimes killed off or force to admit marry-sue is right. While I do agree it has been watered down to much like the word dragon, I still feel like it can have at least one more use outside of the one prescribed to it.

[@HectorCotto97]

Ngl I wasn't expecting that Spoony reference, props for that. I can appreciate it.

[@yank3305]

At this point you’re running out of ideas for your Mary Sue train

[@brayenmorrison3199]

MAAAH-RAAAY SUUUUUUEEE. "Yare Yare Daze." "Do You Understand?"

[@PrixtoTNT]

10:10 Also when he Star Platinum catches The Lovers they use a slow-mo effect that may also be a hint of it

[@cosmicspacething3474]

26:22 Don’t forget the Cuphead show. Man, there’s a lot of breaking the game to movie curse in recent years. Which is obviously a good thing

[@mattwo7]

28:28 Entei, Professor Layton and Ai from Animal Crossing: The Movie should be there too. I mean the Animal Crossing: The Movie was mid but only because it was an Animal Crossing movie, there's not likely a good way to properly adapt the source material and not make a mid movie.

[@walter4180]

Mary Sue I've noticed for media in general has been hijacked and watered down by people who mainly just have a conscious or unconscious bias toward female protags actually being useful or somewhat independent lol Most recent I've seen is calling Freya from GoW Ragnarok a Mary Sue which is simply nonsensical if you actually know what the term means and play the game lol Feel like a lot of words like that have been watered down to mean nothing over the past few years really Rarely if ever see much use of the term Gary Stu. Usually just gets wrapped up into plot armor.

[@nicoler5713]

Yeah, it bothers me a little to say "Mary Sue isn't sexist because we have Gary Stu and people use it". YEAH, you can find people calling characters Gary Stus but it isn't nearly as widespread. The average person probably doesn't KNOW Gary Stu is a term, but I'd bet money most people have at least heard the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument if they so much as dip their toes near SW fandom. It's so big, as shown in this video, that the actress had to comment on it. When have you seen a male actor comment on whether their character is a Gary Stu? I can't think of any. In addition, in my experience with people calling characters Gary Stus, it exists MOSTLY to point out the hypocrisy of many people who call out "Mary Sue" at any remotely competent female character. Male wish fulfilment exists in COUNTLESS renditions of amazing and perfect action protagonists, but the second that character exists in a female body...

[@jacksonholder2987]

I'm not sure what basis anyone could possibly have to call Freya a Mary Sue but if they're uneducated enough to make that claim, I doubt anyone could change their mind at this point.

[@TheVergil-sparda]

fun fact, at some point after the main story you actually get to battle her main team. and its one if not THE hardest battle in pokemon history!

[@keithedwards499]

That no straight roads music in the background, love it! Good game wish it got more spotlight though.

[@holty1314]

**Defending Jotaro:** 1) Every human is flawless, Jotaro is as weak as a human and could be killed in any given scenario - yes even being turned into a child. 2) Self Insert - he has no similarities to the author but if your argument is that the author chose to make a character like this - then every fictional character is 3) So angels willing kill now?

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

True same with Giorno yes he is pretty much Jesus but he isn’t a mary sue. He has been put out of commission like with Notorious BIG and almost died against Bruno, it’s obvious the only Jojo character that’s even close to being a self insert is Rohan though that’s still debatable, and for the Jesus thing he seems to be there to help others improve themselves.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane Hell, if he didn't smart it up, Giorno would have died to Baby Face.

[@bruhmoment3478]

@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane Araki said Rohan isn't a self insert. They aren't similar at all except they both draw mangas.

[@arpandey698]

Aizen, I only lost because I wanted to lose, is a Mary Sue. His power is completely unexplained in story. He isn't descended from a great bloodline, he wasn't the son of the soul king, and he wasn't an amalgamation of other races. he was just born with natural power above almost everybody and had the MOST Powerful ability in bleach as a Shiki. The story revolves arounds Aizen's plans to an extent that the setting warps around him. He is an intimidating but poorly written character whose power invalidates the existence of most of his subordinates. As a general rule a leader on an organization should not be able to destroy all of his subordinates at the same time with ease as it makes the subordinates feel useless.

[@zakeer2342]

Out of curiosity, has anyone noticed that there are a lot of overlap between Mary sues and the paragon archetype. That is, starting with a moral compass/ideal personality that does not waver or change, admiration from other characters due to their strength or personality, and depending on the story being a deus ex machina when the protagonist is in trouble. Of course, the paragon tends to take a secondary role more often than Mary sues, and if too strong, is often killed early. Characters such as Obi-wan, Goku, Captain America. This is not to say that these characters are necessarily bad, just something I noticed.

[@ohcadin6590]

22:12 that battle tendency joke got me way more than it should have

[@sonic30655]

I did not know mary sue came from a star terk fanfic

[@daydreamer2257]

If you ever want to bleed out of your eyes, give that partikular story a read. Its so much worse than you could imagine.

[@sonic30655]

@daydreamer2257 No, thank you. I'm good

[@Creetur]

I personally call male mary sues “gory soup”s. I misheard the term gary stu once and I just can’t unhear gory soup.

[@kingrjrw5224]

Sad how when he said Mary Sue I IMMEDIATELY thought of Rey 😒

[@cappa974]

A very good video! Yare Yare daze

[@ancientbaltoy8769]

I don't like the term Mary Sue because it draws people's attention towards the character instead of the writing. Bad characters doesn't exist. You just have to write the story around them to make them good.

[@LunaP1]

What asshats said that Nemona was a Mary Sue?! She's not! She's battle crazy and you saying she's like Goku made me chuckle. I like her as a character and she's by far the "friendly" rival that constantly challenges the player. Even in the Champion vs Champion battle, praises the player for the win (I was hoping she'd give them a big hug with her usual enthusiasm). Then she immediately gets excited for a round two of their battle with different Pokémon teams, causing Clavel and Geeta to face-palm? 😆 Never change, Nemona.

[@mineflameblade8788]

I should point out that SAO abridged did a lot to fix Kirito as a character, and it honestly really works.

[@SJrad]

While i don’t completely hate him, leon feels like a gary stu. Where from what we see of him, it’s just raw power, no strategy. And everyone keeps raving on how he’s the undefeated champion with his super epic powerful charizard. and yeah he did train under a previous champion(mustard) to get to this point but that doesn’t really make him less of a gary stu. Although he did technically failed to defeat/catch eternatus so i guess that does make him less of one.

[@MoostachedSaiyanPrince]

Honestly, I disagree about Lightning from FF XIII. Not about what you said about her in the first game, but for the sequels. I'm not defending them, as I believe they get worse with each game, but even with the sequels, I don't see her becoming a Mary Sue. In XIII-2, she's absent for almost the entire story, which is what causes her sisters adventure to go looking for her in the first place. Also, Lightning isn't written as perfect here, because the power up she gets from becoming the chosen one still isn't enough for her to overcome that game's villain, because she loses that fight. Her characterization here wasn't great, but she also doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue here IMO, because she isn't perfect. She gets a power up by literally being removed from her own place in history, then she's absent for most of the game, then the game ends with her being beaten off-screen and she's implied to be killed by the villain, at least that's what he claims. As for Lightning Returns, there's a stronger case there, but I still don't think she's written as perfect, but she is written poorly and has most of her character progression from the first game is completely erased until the end of the game. The reason for this is because she does have flaws here, or at least one very specific flaw: she's literally had her emotions suppressed by the villain of the game, a god of creation that saved her after the past game because it wants to use her as a tool to erase and recreate the world according to it's ideal, and she goes along with it for most of the game because of the way that God has screwed with her head. Altough her suddenly being able to fight was thna bunch of new weapons is definitely a Mary Sue quality. It's not a good story, and it's poorly written, but she doesn't come across as flawless. I think they just did a really bad job of telling her story. Gameplay wise though, she does come across as a Mary Sue.

[@MoostachedSaiyanPrince]

@@eddieboston6540 I could've sworn she uses various types of swords and spears that were pretty different from what she originally had, and using something like a buster sword is wildly different from wielding a saber, because it requires different training to wield proficiently. But admittedly, I might be misremembering that. It's been a while, so I remember the plot of the game much more than the combat since the story stuck out a bit more despite it being the simplest in the trilogy. Although I still do think that her basically becoming a one woman party does come across as kinda mary-sue-ish, even if I still maintain that she isn't one, even in the third game.

[@PMbarbieri]

@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince The problem with the gameplay and multiple weapons aspect is that this applies to pretty much any protagonist from any Final Fantasy that uses the job system: thanks to the crystals' blessing, the characters are immediately able to fight with anything. Are they overpowered or Mary Sues because of that? In my opinion, no. If anything, the fact that Lightning is the only character you can control lessens the Mary Sue factor, because you don't have other fighters that would be rendered useless by her versatility. Even the one-man army aspect is not Mary Sue-ish enough to me, especially because it doesn't apply all that much in story: the final battle is won when the other characters arrive.

[@cotocoyerakson8195]

4:45 The problem is lack of consequences. Even tho when she mess up other people have to pay for it, or she just swift her fault to other person and when she pay for something like loosing her connections with the others avatar she get it restored without effort, Aang just snap his fingers and all of her problems are gone.

[@hanakoisbestgirl4752]

Giiiirrrrrlllll, that image from the game of Josuke laying on his bed behind bars... they knew what they were doing

[@icookchildrenandeatthem9085]

The thing that differs nemona is because it probaly awakened something on a lot, and i mean A LOT, of pokemon children.