Ranting About Mary Sues for 31 minutes

[@TheMaskedFox288]

OSP made a great argument that Mary Sues are when the character is the center of the universe and no other character is given a chance to shine. Every other character's character is based on the sue.

[@drewwilliams7794]

Same here

[@akiiame_]

By that definition, Steven Universe could be classified as a Gary Stu.

[@trakar3501]

@@akiiame_ Well, he kinda is, that's actually a pretty common criticism of his character. Tons of people do think he's a Gery Stu.

[@knightgale2120]

@@trakar3501 I’ve never heard that. I’ve watched a ton of critical videos and haven’t seen anything calling him that.

[@trakar3501]

@@knightgale2120 I saw it on Tumblr mostly. I disagree with them, I don't think he has enough 'mary su' traits to really qualify, but it's something I have actually seen quite a few people say.

[@WarmLillie]

Mary Sue they are conceptually the perfect being and having no flaw. It sorta might make them come off as bratty and flawed. Strange isn’t it.

[@batfang25animations39]

When you think about it being a mary sue can be a flaw or at least make a flaw like the hero get a ego or two sides trying to make the mary sue join them making them wonder what is right and wrong and how they cant help anyone or being a fallen hero like anakin skywalker and so on

[@azurrayne4140]

I personally prefer the way literature devil has defined Mary Sues. To sum it up, the plot and the rules of the universe bend to their will. They act and everything reacts, with no real repercussion. It's how to tell your Wonder Woman apart from your MaRae Suewalker. Let's compare Luke to Rae, first time force use. Luke: deflecting blasts from a training droid. Rae: resisting a hyper powerful, highly trained force user from probing her mind, then probing his. Luke: Assisting with aiming and shooting a shot he's practiced a lot (albeit off screen; bullseyeing wamprats.) Rae: using a highly advanced mind trick to free herself from captivity. Comparing Luke, and even Anakin, who were supposed to be space Jesus, their hero's journey/fall to Rae's completeness from the start is a sin, so I'll take my ding and move on before I go into a rant that makes MauLer look brief in comparison.

[@ServantOfSatania]

When you think about it the lack of flaw in the character itself makes it a flaw in writing (Ignoring genres where these flaws would be irrelevant as it wouldn't be the focus)

[@paradoxglitch1108]

More like making a conceptually perfect being in your story they might turn out to be a flaw in of themselves in the story

[@EbonMaster]

If them being bratty has basically no consequence then its a very superficial flaw and doesnt make them not a mary sue. Also a mary sue is not only defined by the character herself but by the way that teh world reacts around them and in the worst cases reality will damn near or even literally warp around her to help her get the thing that she desires.

[@issacthompson330]

The way I see it, a Mary Sue/Marty Stu are a character that it feels like the world literally revolves around them to the point that preexisting rules will be broken in their favor.

[@issacthompson330]

Will admit that I wrote this before you started talking about StarWars.

[@alsuvarnadvipadanargentum1743]

@@aries7292 Hilariously enough 😆 the bland sounding name “Rey” is a name given to her that actually means “King” in Spanish with cognates to the Latin “Rex” and Sanskrit “Rajah”; Monte-rey-Mountain King It gives you a clue that she has this immense strength “in the Force” that she cannot control herself due to a lack of experience with such abilities even though she is said to be a “scavenger” -on survival mode and has to go somewhere else to a certain someone where she can learn HOW to control her own “Force abilities” better; that is just one expectation of Rey’s character development right? But did it REALLY happened in the 3 movies for the Sequel trilogy? Does it REALLY have meaningful significance, if that were really the case where she can learn from her mistakes and not repeat them?

[@anlexaify]

Basically main characters.

[@sapientbirb7350]

@@anlexaify If every single main character was like Rey, or My Immortal's main character, then sure.

[@DeathKitta]

So Korra still fits it. Yaknow. How uncorporeal previous life phisically touched her. How one bloodebender can lock away bending but another blood bender can't lock up it back. How she didn't even need to reach her spiritual understanding for airbending with which she struggled from the beginning and just... pucnhed an air. How it's a tradition for Avatars to know that they are avatar in 16 because they won't know about it and yet a toddler was able to bend three elements in a basic level.

[@miguelescobedo5112]

Well, one thing for sure is that a Mary Sue's weakness is Constructive Criticism and Facts.

[@DeathKitta]

Yeah, their existence denyes established logic of this world.

[@dean_l33]

The charcters that are completely broken in their own universe rules and not come off as a shit head is Saitama from one punch man and Reinhard in re:zero

[@DeathKitta]

@@dean_l33 and Saitama is a parody character.

[@dean_l33]

@@DeathKitta Yeah thats true but he kinda fit the mary sue definition although its only one small part

[@njalsand133]

And he failed to kill a mosquito

[@stevenhiggins3055]

Mary Sue check. 1. Is your character overpowered? 2. Did they earn that power? 3. Have they ever lost a fight? 4. Have they ever made a mistake that has real consequences? 5. Does everyone immediately like and implicitly trust the upon first meeting? 6. If a character doesn't like them, is said character evil (either secretly or openly) or jealous? If 1=Yes, 2-4=no, and 5 and 6=yes, congratulations, you have a Mary Sue. Now go back and rewrite the character. Until at least 4 of those answers are different.

[@vovabars1234]

Well in that video that only applies to Rey

[@noahwilson3809]

What if they were born with their power (like Allen Walker) but had to train with said power in order to understand it? Not trying to argue against you, I'm just looking into your advice further cause I'm writing my own story.

[@themadoneplays7842]

The problem with this so-called test is that it is too limited and doesn't account for all scenarios and has a few glaring flaws. For example lets run my character here shall we? 1: is my character overpowered? Define overpowered mate, be specific. My character has a few powers due to him being a cyborg. He has enhanced speed, strength and has mild psychic abilities. 2: Did he earn his power? No he was given his powers in an experiment, but hey Flash didn't earn his powers neither did Spider-Man nor Superman. 3: Did they ever lose a fight? Yes once or twice 4: Sort of but at this stage it's not important... yet and currently doesn't seem like a mistake. 5: Well my character is rather easy to get on with, he's very sociable and polite. 6: Sometimes, depends on the villains I set for him, some actually like him while others want him in a pine box. But you kind of see the problem, you boiled your system to only yes or no answers, and it becomes murky with some of your wording. Again define overpowered, overpowered compared to what? If by other characters like him? No, if you mean by non-superpowered humans then yes but its very vague TBH. Now answering no to the second question in on itself not a bad thing and technically the third too depending on what you are doing. I do have another character in my story who is a boxer with a (current) undefeated streak does that add into them being a Mary sue? Not necessarily so. Number 4 well again I am working on it, so yes currently no but on a technicality of the current story arc I have set for him. I also answered number 5 wish a sort of yes and same as 6 so by your rules yes I did make a Sue... but on the most superficial level based on your boiled down rules. Mary Sue tests are too easily broken to take seriously.

[@themadoneplays7842]

@Cactus Juice Well I try to make most of my characters lose in some form or fashion, some loses are not as long-lasting mind you but since my characters are superheroes well I don't want them moping around for 800 issues/episodes/stories for every last failure. Yes I plan on dealing them a big defeat, one that will take them out for at least one episode/story as honestly that kind of storytelling does work now and then. I mean as a person with "Cactus juice" in their name I am sure you are familiar with Avatar the last Airbender. At the end of book 2 Aang faced his largest defeat but was mostly back on his feet by the first episode of book 3 as honestly having him mope around for the next few episodes would not move the plot forward and make Aang a rather depressing character. I mean his defeat still had its long term consequences, but you still have to drive your characters past their defeats if you want to move the story forward sometimes.

[@joeyjerry1586]

Let’s apply that to Korra: 1. No. 2. It took her over a decade to master 3 elements and a whole season to master another so she earned it. Admittedly her getting airbending was plot convenience but she did spend a whole season struggling. 3. Multiple times. 4. Yes, she lost connection to the past avatars against Unalaq and got depression after her fight against Zaheer. 5. No. Lin didn’t like her at first and Mako was kind of annoyed. Plus, a lot of Republic city hates her. 6. No, most of the characters who dislike her at first just find her annoying.

[@chadsmith8966]

I think the problem with Mary Sues is they, in a sense, not allowed to struggle, to grow as a character. Rey kinda of a good example. She had so much potential that was never capitalized on.

[@Archon3960]

Blame Episode IX for that. This had good ideas, but Disney yeeted Trevorrow out and gave Abrams a backpedalling script. x)

[@chadmann2724]

She is literally a rip off of the two previous choses ones. Desert Planet Slave Unlimited Power But you probably think you’re smart enough to know better

[@chadsmith8966]

@@chadmann2724 oh, there’s no denying Rey is ripoff of Anakin and Luke (more so with Luke), and done poorly at that. She’s definitely an amalgam of both. Instead of playing with her similarities and contrasts of Anakin and Luke, Disney focused on making her “better”.

[@galacticpookachus6780]

How to write flaws: Look at yourself

[@technounionrepresentative4274]

So every character hates their voice? Hmm doesn't seem to have much that can be done with that

[@Goddess_of_trash]

how to make mary sues/marty stus: just remove all your real life insecurities! :D

[@themaskedtalker2171]

Hmm... I guess I have many. 1) Thinks they're ugly 2) Hates their voice 3) Very self conscious about their body 4) Doesn't really care if what they do doesn't please people 5) Definitely a slob. 6) Listens to too much music 7) Has a hot temper 9) Sometimes skips numbers like an idiot 10) Somehow can make something awesome one day then just can't replicate it the next because he sucks. 11) Cusses way too much 12) On a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of attractiveness, definitely being about a 3. 13) Plays too many video games at times. 14) A stressed mess whose stress pays off because look at those college grades! 15) Doesn't care much about his own wellbeing. 16) Impulsive to the point of being dumb at times. Yeah... that's not a bad idea. I have so many damned flaws that I could write a whole novel of characters just based on those alone.

[@galacticpookachus6780]

@@themaskedtalker2171 It will be called a best-seller for being so relatable

[@Archon3960]

Also: Stop being lazy and write actual characters. B)

[@judgegemini8900]

Truthfully, like the old avatar more The outfit is based on KR W's Shotaro I believe? Either that or something, it felt familiar

[@pn2294]

@@Mangakamen have you done any Tokusatsu reviews?

[@cheeseboi4217]

@@Mangakamen my sense of humor is so fucking broken I laughed at a single K please help me i am literally begging for it

[@Walt305]

llll llll llll llllllllllllll

[@justsomeguywithahandlebarm2456]

I'm not gonna rant but I'm gonna say 2 things about your jojo point 1. I completely agree he's a Mary sue and he's meant to be one (he's literally the son of "god") he's literally a jesus figure (and we all know that if you were to to talk to him he would just a plain toast of holiness) and his mery sueness has a reason 2. Giornos supposed to be an ideal every person there is trying to achieve or generally be with he's a driving force not a character Ok I tried not to rant but failed I know

[@LinkJTO]

Now there’s a third one

[@raikasha8152]

If he was a mary sue then why does he need assistance in almost all the fights he's in?

[@raikasha8152]

@UwU DahWholesome You mean characters to make the presumed "Sue" look good? (Disclaimer: I'm not siding Dahwholesome's ideas I'm simply questioning their line of reasoning)

[@justsomeguywithahandlebarm2456]

@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec you do have a point

[@ohno8064]

@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec I haven't watched part 5 in a while but i remember in both the Clash and notorious B.I.G fight that Narancia and Trish sang praises to how smart and strong and cool Giorno was while they were doing all the work, and i don't really remember the other fights so i'm not sure about those

[@zimnylech527]

I can't really agree with hyper-competence being the main defining characteristic of a Mary Sue. You can have characters that are OP as shit but still entertaining and nuanced. Example: Alucard from Hellsing. His powers are insanely broken, to the point where almost nothing can challenge him, but being powerful is only ONE of his traits, and the manga/show makes it very clear that he's by no means perfect. Hell, you can barely call him a protagonist, he's more like a completely deranged psychopath that just HAPPENS to do what the other characters want him to. Sometimes. If he feels like it. I think that the actual defining trait of a Mary Sue is when a story is purposefully built *around* them. When an author assumes from the start that his protagonist IS objectively, morally right, and they'll jump through increasingly large hoops to justify their every action - that's a Mary Sue. When all villains are eventually reduced to cartoonishly evil, senseless lunatics, because god forbid somebody opposing the hero actually make some sense - that's a Mary Sue. When any struggle the hero goes through eventually resolves itself through sheer plot convenience - that's a Mary Sue. I think Ruby from RWBY is an excellent example of this. She's not particularly overpowered (well okay, she has one Magical Plot Power (TM) that she rarely uses), but after 8 seasons she has yet to show any sort of personality aside from being The Hero and as such The Good Guy. Every good guy eventually comes to like her, everyone who dislikes her eventually turns out to be the villain, her every action is presented as The Right Thing To Do regardless of consequences, and so on.

[@bakonman6611]

To be fair, Giorno's ability is MEANT to be broken in 1 aspect: Utility/Support. Giorno just doesn't have the power it often takes to really beat up many of the enemies throughout Part 5 and acts a lot like an assist or a very powerful supporting character. Sure, he does Ciocolatta a massive beatdown but his stand wasn't really exactly made for head-to-head combat either. Giorno is the only real support of the group (If you don't count Bruno re-attaching limbs using zippers) and, because of this, his weakness is that he needs to output more destructive power, something the rest of the gang does pretty well. Bruno is the brave leader with a lot of utility and power, Trish has a very good defensive and offensive power, Mista is one of the best marksman in the group, Narancia is the scout and extra marksman of the group, and Fugo is just a sheer powerhouse who can hurt himself if he doesn't use Purple Haze well enough. Giorno may be OP but not in all the other categories that really net you a win in the world of Part 5 (Especially since that part has VERY destructive stands. Some fights are actually very centered around the supporting cast doing a lot of things while Giorno bolsters their efforts and supports them). Next, the deus ex machina thing. First of all, it was basically established that whoever got the requiem arrow would pretty much win the ensuing or current fight. This is why Polnarref went to such great lengths and even let Chariot Requiem loose as he was so determined and desperate to ensure the arrow fell into the hands of Giorno and the gang. The whole GER thing isn't a deux ex machine because... we know that it or 1 other thing is going to happen. Either Giorno gets GER or Diavolo gets King Crimson Requiem. Whoever gets a Requiem stand is the winner. Simple. If the Requiem arrow just suddenly appeared in the middle of the fight for some half-assed reason, then I think it'd be a deus ex machina, but the Requiem arrow was built up as a powerful artifact that could actually defeat Diavolo's invincible King Crimson. The whole point of that fight was that whoever got the Requiem arrow automatically became the winner basically. The fight wasn't about what happened after but was all about a strategical game of keep away and pursue where a lot of the characters played a major part in Giorno's victory. Just my opinion though, feel free to respond if you want about anything I said

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

Yeah.

[@firenze6478]

Also rey, easily fixing a ship that she has never been on, while the owner of such ship bumbles around like a moron. Getting praised and worshipped by everyone she meets, prime example leia hugging her instead of chewy when han dies. She knew him for like a day and chewy knew him his whole life.

[@firenze6478]

Oh nevermind you mentioned these at the end

[@marleycannon238]

Rey can use force lightning and force healing ( F,L) a incredibly hatefully ability WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE BEEN HIT WITH FEELS ITS POWER AND NOT SUBMIT TO ITS WRATH but bend and chanel its power threw u to create your own lightning its so dark of an abilty that it bends the nature of the force is such a tyranical and hatefully way that it destorts the will of the force . Also she can use force healing a abilty made illegal to teach since the golden age of the jedi before yoda was even born , it would have been usefull is the grey jedi civil war but it was deemed to unatural as it changed the will of the force although for a good and moral reason these to ideologies of the force clash oil and water YOU CANT HAVE BOTH REY THE QUEEN OF THE MARY SUES gets both yunah why go go women power , shes op with no training gets handed everything's and hee op ness is in a direct front to the world building of star wars , and star wars legends , other reason wokeness ruined star wars was because they marketed the seqeul as fins journey a black storm trooper turned jedi would be badass , wokeness in the 90s used to be about (establishing routes of success for women of colour ) early 2000s it ment being awake to systems of control and opression within organisations and media also had links to being awake to conspiracys and then we get modern wokeness 2019 onward go go women power we hate men and obese women with blue hair and hello kitty pfp 😂😂 or the other true form of wokeness the black avanues thing thats why so many white characters are geetting recast as black characters thats wokeness well until your average privalaged white women in American went " womp womp WHY ISNT IT ALLLL ABOUT MEEEE YK WHERE OPRESSED RIGHT RIGHT?? " ⬆️so pathetic so in conclusions white women and people of colour had another who was more opressed dick messuring contest and disney felt pressure to do what they think gets them money ( go go women power and shity story telling) and gave it all to rey again i aint racist but aint it funny how the white women gets it all again ??? 😂 u lot soaked in the blood money in the American south do your research 😂😂 anyway history lesson over moral of the story FUCK REY AND THE MSHEU AND 1 MORE FUCK REY FOR GOOD MESSURE also go watch arcane league of legend on netflix its amazing vi is how you get past the mary sue trope cuz she aint no mary sue

[@StateBlaze1989]

I'm gonna be honest, I personally just need a character to be likable or have a good/well written personality in order for me to like them. This whole "seeing a part of yourself in the character" concept is near alien to me and I still cannot understand why so many people need a character in media to directly tie to or represent them in some way in order to like them (see anyone on tumblr or Twitter whining that there aren't enough [insert demographic here] people in a movie, show or western comic).

[@blehblblehbl7535]

Theres a lot of amazing characters out there that you can relate to or care for! My personal favorite is Kokichi Ouma :D

[@IncorrectHB]

Im the same exact way. I like a lot of characters that i have no relation to

[@trulymrword]

Some people like looking a funhouse mirror basically but that is a valid reason. I have some I can relate to and some that I like because they are that way. So some people like those characters because it feels empowering that similar people succeed though most of the time it isn't those reasons as to why they win. Objectivity is hardly something the average consumer of media thinks about.

[@yourfatboy5359]

Man i can relate to toby's and Andrew's portray of peter parker each one for different reasons But I'm not white honestly if you can only relate to a person who looks identical to you then your dumb

[@razkable]

true...the persona type people...i like goku..i am nothing like goku but i like him...i like gohan too..i am more like him...i like kururrin i am sorta at times like him...then theres vegeta..fuck vegeta...

[@LukasJampen]

Some of the traits I use when talking about Mary Sues and that a lot of the ones commonly called that have: Liked by everyone for no reason. Exceptionaly good at stuff for no reason. Rarely or never loses. No personality or just plain boring. Doesn't grow or has no character arc. Good just for being goods sake. Nothing really bad happens to them or their mistakes have no consequences.

[@LemanRussx]

Skyrim, we are marysues in that game, I lead every faction in that game.

[@jademirror]

I've always forgiven Mary sue characters as being for children or teens in difficult situations, like a mental protection against the horrible things they might be going through, a small escape or hopeful wishes.

[@jarnlok4903]

Even tho I disagree with Golden Experience being bad, yeah there's a reason why my pfp is Mista and not Giorno

[@grimreaper63151]

24:49 she also got free siren powers and at the end of the game Lilith let her be the leader of the crimson raiders and gave her sanctuary. Yeah I'd call her a marry sue when she's given all this free shit after getting a character killed and contributed absolutely nothing to the story. Except getting Maya killed I guess.

[@daeryk6424]

Yeah, you right about GioGio. He's DIO's son, but has none of his charisma which could've played a part in the story. Must be his Jonathan genes dominating the DIO ones.

[@saidi7975]

Well I prefer his Jonathan traits over making him a copy of Dio. Though Giorno discovering that he is the byproduct of necrophilia would be great...

[@PewPewBeets]

The closest thing to a video game Mary Sue I can think of would be the Deputy from Far Cry 5. He doesn't say a word, is capable of operating just about every weapon under the sun from the very beginning (that could be explained by his profession, but it can only work to a certain point), everyone loves and relies on him to save the day, and the life threatening injuries he receives are treated as if they never happened.

[@pettyofficer1192]

The most annoying characters are those who have power they didn't work for, and are arrogant because of a title without any real backing.

[@keenestfox6376]

Great video and explaination on the factors of a Mary sue but I completely disagree on your stance on Korra and Giorno. Yes both of their abilities are broken in their respective universe which makes them a cut above the rest. But Korra learned the basics of the first three elements and didn't fully master them until she was 17, and Giorno's powers have limits. Like when he couldn't use his stand's abilities since his arms were cut off against Notorious Chase or when he needed help defeating opponents like White Ice(basically his kryptonite), Crush(the shark stand that was dragging him around), or Diavolo(who has even more broken abilities than almost anyone besides Risotto). People who probably say Giorno is boring probably don't see his many layers as a character like the trait he embodies from his two dads who were mortal enemies.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

I do think Giorno should have got more lines to work with, to show a bit more of him.

[@TomEyeTheSFMguy]

I thank you for bringing the existence of that Weird Al clip into my life.

[@arthurpprado]

My definition of Sue is mostly a character that bends the plot to their will to the point of making it boring, with the keyword being "boring". An example I like to give of a character that bends the plot to their will but manages to stay entertaining is Bayonetta. She is absurdly powerful, was born with a vaguely described gift which supposedly makes her even more powerful, defeats every enemy that comes her way except when the plot demands that she should be beaten, just so she can look even more badass later and is always the center of attention. The difference is that she puts on a show while doing all this. She dances, spouts one-liners faster than she shoots her guns, strips naked on the regular and taunts anyone who even looks at her funny. Bayo walks and talks like a Sue but she doesn't bore you with it

[@Kennedy640]

"Mary Sues suck! There's so many of them in fiction!" "Oh really? Name a few." "Easy! Korra, Ray from Star Wars... uhhhh... oh, Kirito from SAO, uhhh...."

[@ervinpucchi6951]

Kira Yamato from Gundam Seed and Destiny. Wesley Crusher from Star Trek the Next Generation. Scrapy Doo from Scooby Doo. Ginny Weasley from Harry Potter(Novels, not the movie.) Alice from the Resident Evil movies. Chloe Price from Life is Strange. Other than that I can't honestly think of anymore that comes to mind lol

[@lucasclyde7424]

Erza from Fairy Tail (at least in the post timeskip) Gou from Pokemon

[@Xtermenator217]

Korra is not a Mary Sue

[@diirt]

For video game Mary Sues/Gary Stus, I do actually know some examples from one of my favorite game. I'm a major fan of Mystic Messenger, I analyze the characters and plot to an extreme extent. My favorite character is Seven, who I often jokingly call a Mary Sue. A case for him being a Gary Stu is absolutely understandable, the guy is literally know as the best hacker in the world, is a great secret agent, is able to hack into basically everything within minutes and single handedly destroyed one of if not the largest agencies in Korea. At a first glance, I could understand fully why some might call him a Gary Stu, however he definitely isn't. He is shown to fail countless of times in his hacking, his servers and the chat that the game takes place of gets hacked multiple times with very little notice from Seven, one of the most dangerous weapons of his gets hacked and nearly kills the main character, he spent literal years, ever since he was a really young child, learning and mastering his skills since that was literally the only way for him and his brother to survive, he put his life in constant danger to perfect his skills, he talks about how he's literally nearly died multiple times and only through shier will, determination and luck to not give up did he and he's shown to be genuinely really insecure about his skills and his own desire and strive for perfection out of fear. Even in his route, he doesn't get away completely fine with his actions, as the main character often gets chances to bring back the fact that he was acting really cold and mean to them, for which he constantly apologizes. But if Seven isn't a Gary Stu, then why did I bring up all of that? Because his brother, Saeran Choi, has progressively been going down hill to the point that he has become a Gary Stu. He may be a fan favorite, but the fact of the matter is, is that he is undoubtedly a Gary Stu and his After Ending is the clearest, most shining example of this. I would say "Spoilers for his AE ahead" but I have so little respect for that God awful DLC that I won't even bother. Saeran was always known to be the weaker twin, the one whose always helpless and who had to be raised by Seven and was the main motivator for why Seven became a hacker and why he dedicated his life to a craft that he hates. Seven constantly put his life at risk for Saeran, however when he disappeared, Saeran was understandably very upset. He starts picking up hacking as a way to try to understand where his brother went and, somehow through his own self taught skills, becomes an even better hacker than Seven, an industry, professionally trained expert who spent almost a decade of his life mastering the skill. In Saerans route, he is constantly praised about how excellent his hacking skills are, how not even Seven can hack through his security system. And when he wasn't hacking, Saeran was always acting like a complete asshole. Torturing his brother by bringing up trauma inducing imagery, constantly abusing and yelling at the other residents of the cult he's in, harassing the other RFA members by threatening and scaring them and, probably the most disgusting of them all, physically, sexually and mentally abusing the main character. He constantly threatens the MC with the idea of him raping her, scaring her to the point she starts shaking just by seeing and hearing his voice, imprisoning her in her own room, malnourishing and taking away all means of food and water, installing cameras into her room to take away all and any privacy she had, constantly threatening to kill her, belittling her and cutting all contact from anyone who could possibly help her. And none of this is ever addressed. He gets away with all of this basically scot-free. Oh sure he says sorry once, but unlike with Seven, who did far less horrible acts, MC doesn't get any options to bring up the trauma he inflicted onto her. And suddenly he is magically cured and is an amazing and most kind and caring person through the power of love. His hatred for his brother completely vanishes, his self taught hacking skills get even better than they were before that even Sevens partner admits that Saeran is "much faster at hacking than Seven", everyone in the RFA loves him and praises how amazing he is, constantly talking about how bad they feel for him because he "lost his brother :(" who is in the middle of life and death and being tortured by their father, literally confess their love to him, magically manages to woosh away the agency that Seven had to, once again, at least risk his life to even attempt to destroy and changed their dads mind by pitying him and talking to him for about a minute. Worst part is, I'm not joking about any of these issues, this is literally how his DLC goes and it's horrible. - He never suffers the consequences of his actions nor does he ever apologize to anyone else he had hurt, especially his brother, whom he literally has nearly killed countless of times; - Everyone in the RFA start to love and praise him, compare him to his brother and how much better Saeran is, even tho he'd only known them for, at most, a month, whilst Seven has known them for 4 years, even though he's been the guy that's been harassing and literally shaming all of them literally less than a week before; - He is a somehow the best hacker ever, even though he's only been doing it for, at most, 2 years, even though he taught everything himself without any proper education, unlike his brother did. Seven himself, in the original story when the writing hadn't gone bat shit crazy, criticizes Saerans programming and hacking skills, saying he lacks basics and that he clearly is self taught. Yet somehow, a year before that, he is better than someone who dedicated nearly a decade of his life to hacking and was taught by multiple industry professionals; - Is somehow able to COMPLETELY destroy the Agency that Seven worked at without literally doing anything, even though the organization has been said to be one of the most powerful in the country; - He doesn't go through any character development, he just suddenly changes to a complete opposite of what he used to be; - He suddenly understood his brother completely, fully, without even speaking to him once, even tho he believed for over a year that his brother used him. How did he suddenly get the full understanding of his brothers actions when literally no one explained it to him? Who fucking knows; - He managed to somehow change the man who was literally out to kill them ever since they were born, their father, purely by giving him a hug and saying "no one understands you :(" and that somehow works?; Saeran was a flawed character from the start, but that's what made him interesting. However when the focus shifted to him, he became incredibly more and more unbearable to read, to the point I could no longer forgive his shitty character development. Saeran Choi is a Gary Stu and I will never understand why people still like his character.

[@Bolbi145]

My definition of a Mary Su/Gary Stu character is basically “The Ultimate Escapist Character”, like Silver Age Batman or Superman.

[@Nervar]

Dragonborn is a Mary Sue, can do every class at once and max em out while in oblivion and Morrowind you were very limited on the skills that actually effect your leveling and skills your good at

[@nikolasferreira3247]

True but it takes time for them to become perfect in everything so at least we see him grow into a mary sue

[@Legomicroman]

that's because it's a video game character, which is only supposed to be a vessel for the player. that's like calling Minecraft Steve a Gary Stu.

[@Nervar]

@@Legomicroman go play morrowind and oblivion two other video games in the same world and come back to me, it’s not the fact you can grind levels get strong that’s fine it’s the fact every skill gives you points towards leveling and that your good at every skill

[@dantheman_cunningham]

For a video game example, easily Corrin from Fire Emblem Fates. Love by pretty much everyone example for the comically evil villains, everything seems to go their way with little to no genuine struggle. In Birthright it isn't to bad, but in Conquest and Revelations it's far more apparent.

[@Chilled_Soul]

I mean... with the full experience, and hidden truths DLC, I can digest and still enjoy the character regardless (it's my pfp after all), but like I mean... no struggle? Did we play the same Conquest? cause I remember him crying two thirds of the way, after every couple chapters. Even the pre-split establishes that he's just a pawn of Garon, and he remains that way for a while in conquest. literally going against his own morals, fighting fights he doesn't want to fight because he wants the war to end. Fates has it's flaws but I often have trouble seeing him as a mary sue ( this might be cause of my bias ), I can understand people not liking him tho, I have no say in that if you think he's a bad protagonist.

[@dantheman_cunningham]

@@Chilled_Soul I get where you are coming from, but his struggle feels so artificial because of the really messy plot; from the cheap Valla curse forcing the story into a contrived direction, the fact that prior to choosing Nohr, Hans told him he was following Garon's orders when it came to harming Gunther and even Corrin, meaning Corrin somehow thought he should give Garon a chance despite the atrocities he has already done, and the fact that the goal of conquering Hoshido to stop Garon is so irresponsible, that it's hard to really call his struggle genuine. It doesn't help that he barely develops, and frankly they do very, very horrible things, mostly because they are just too stupid to think of anything else, making it very hard to care for his . I also think that you shouldn't need a DLC doesn't really help that much. All it does is reveal his background, something that should've been in Revelations. I guess my point is, the character has a lot of Mary Sue type traits, and the bad writing really exemplifies them. Revelations I would argue is more Mary Sue towards Corrin, but Conquest just makes the character really stupid and artificial, to the point where the character feels like a Mary Sue.

[@drasconboy6349]

Revelations I can definitely see but Conquest? The part where he’s justifiably hated by his birth nation for his betrayal? Where other characters point out that even after the war ended they still hate his guts and even had his mother’s retainer call him out on his dumbassery and tell him she would be disappointed in him? That Corrin?

[@dantheman_cunningham]

@@drasconboy6349 Again, not entirely Mary Sue, but the character displays a lot of those traits still in Conquest. Yeah, his birth family hating him does make sense, but I feel the animosity from the Nohr family is more effective on Birthright just because it Corrin isn't stupid. And even after the war, it may just be me, but I don't remember anyone after the final map express much hate for Corrin, it was really only in the main game. Again, it adds to the feeling that the character's struggle isn't that genuine. Hell, even Takumi, who outright hated his guts, only displayed so much animosity because he happened to be possessed, or at the very least was under the process of being possessed. The only point where I felt any genuine struggle for Corrin, was when Ryoma died, mostly because in that situation, there truly wasn't any other option, and they just had to stand there and accept it. But that's one instance that didn't feel forced or cheap, or simply there to try and make Corrin seem like they were going through a genuine struggle.

[@Chilled_Soul]

@@dantheman_cunningham The plot gets really messy yes, but if you want to read my opinion on this, here you go "Corrin somehow thought he should give Garon a chance despite the atrocities he has already done, and the fact that the goal of conquering Hoshido to stop Garon is so irresponsible, that it's hard to really call his struggle genuine." I'm pretty sure that despite that being what he said he genuinely just wants to return to Nohr for his siblings, and he does add it's to, find out the truth for himself and the VERY FIRST thing he did ask Garon was about the nuke sword. Garon played dumb and I don't think Corrin really bought that, but he knows he can't do anything about it as he WILL get killed on the spot. I don't think obeying orders in the following chapters is all that stupid, if anything it's a little cowardly, and I appreciate that it makes for a different protagonist, that doesn't find it in himself to rebel (until stupidly late into the game). I think there's something to be said about it's bad writting and how poorly executed those ideas are tho, because it's trying to ride the thin line between rebelling in the shadows and suffering as a puppet, never really commiting to either, that's what i'm bummed about.

[@xecutioner1199]

As a fan of the Doom games, I’ve heard a lot of people complain about the main character, Doomguy, being way too over powered and have even gone far enough to call home a mart stew. I would love to hear your opinion about it. p.s. loved the video!

[@EskChan19]

He kinda is. But in this case it's ok because that's the whole point of the game. The thing is that books, comics, mangas and movies are inherently storydriven experiences because they are not interactive. You follow along with what they do, as a passive observer. Therefore the story needs to be engaging enough to keep your attention. And a Mary Sue is usually bad for a story because stories become interesting by the excitement of overcoming challenges and hardships. And Mary Sues usually don't have these. They win by default, they're perfect by default, they have no hardships because they can't show weakness, by default. But some media can move away from that and that's what Doom does. That's why often enough, high-octane action movies get a pass on certain things. Because the excitement people seek is in the visuals and not the story. In that way, Doom is really not a storydriven experience in the slightest. There is deep lore you CAN gather if you want, but even that is more of a bonus than the main part of the game. Noone ever said "I can't wait for the new Doom. I don't really care about shooting demons but those lore bits you can find are just so good!". Doom is not about the story, as an interactive medium it's about the power fantasy. Doomguy is just your vessel. YOU are the awesome, OP guy running around and tearing through hordes of demons. And that's so exciting that what Doomguys personality is doesn't matter. When you are playing Doom you really couldn't give less of a shit about his personality and deep thoughts, and the only weaknesses you care about in him are what you need to avoid so you don't lose. In this case the medium that Doom exists in makes it so that "being a Mary Sue" isn't really a thing that can or needs to be avoided. A Mary Sue makes any story they're in automatically more boring. But when the story doesn't matter to begin with, then there's no issue with that.

[@jlmmedia09]

So in defense of Giorno, his stand (Gold Experience, not GER) isn't overpowered-- at least compared to the other broken sh!t you see in the series. Giorno's ability to turn inanimate things into living beings works because you can't really use it to win a fight if you look at it in a straightforward way. That is where Giorno's creativity comes in. For example, when Giorno had to fight Black Sabbath, he didn't win by punching the living daylights out of it, but instead overcharges a tree with life to wither it, exposing Black Sabbath to sunlight, and killing it.

[@dinozero2]

8:41 Thank you for calling that one out. I hated it when the author make the MC all too perfect. 22:29 Oh you know Suisei too?

[@alexhood9949]

The definition changes from person to person 31 minutes of something that could have been five

[@ezrawyvern6795]

I'd argue Korra using 3 of the 4 elements at the age of 4 isn't an example of her being a Mary Sue, as simply performing them didn't give her immediate mastery over them. She heard that the Avatar could use all 4 elements and more than likely just tried to see if she could do so, and to her luck she could. After all, Aang himself learned Firebending in Season 1 but didn't become an instant master at it. Plus, in Korra's case we see her using Earthbending and Firebending again 13 or so years after the fact, which is more than enough time to gain some mastery of it, especially if the Order of the White Lotus are involved.

[@dannydumlet]

I got a Mary Sue nobody talks about Pyrrha from Soul Calibur 5. A short version, anything she does in universe isn't seen as wrong, and she manages to control Soul Edge in the end...no not be controlled by it like everyone else, she manages to get it to let her use it with her own freewill

[@dwightgreene1361]

Honestly in giorno's case lots of stoic badass characters in JoJo kind of just shake off injuries I mean let's talk about jotoro and part 4 which is my favorite part the dude got shot by rat trap a stand that basically cronenberg's the body and he got hit by a bunch of the bullets from rat trap and he still kept a calm and clear head through the entire thing I think it's less that giorno shrugged off getting his hand blown off and I think it's more like even though he knows it hurts he has to power through it and keep a clear head because with a stand like notorious BIG there was no time to be wallowing in pain I mean they showed the example when he was a kid that he would get beaten up by his own surrogate father it's less than he doesn't feel the pain and more like he's just used to taking a beating that the years of being neglected and misused by those around him made him hard in his resolve and not show fear or pain when it's him being hurt

[@Ptr-ck7if]

in defense of giorno being a marty stu... or rather, in offense of your points: jotaro already finished his arc, he defeated dio, he already went on this wacky adventure and won already, he *should* be stronger than what he is in part 4. but, also, in defense of your argument, the brain can go into shock and not feel pain for a bit and it doesnt realize how much pain it is in currently and it only settles in later.

[@That1powergamer]

Oh also forgot there is a Episode of trope talk by Overly sarcastic productions and it's a really well done video on why "Mary sue's" are so bad and the term's origin you should check it out it's actually super good.

[@helenfotopoulou5125]

I think that a key factor in a character being a Mary Sue is that they tend to overshadow everybody else in the plot. Giorno doesn't really do that. He's there at the front stage, but it's almost always somebody else who really gets a spotlight on them.

[@homunculus7]

Was the thumbnail implying Korra is a Mary Sue? That girl is hot headed. Stubborn and had to go through 3 villains and 2 near death experiences along with a healthy dose of ptsd to become a well rounded, wiser and more caring individual. I hope that wasn't the case with the thumbnail cause it kinda makes me mad when people keep saying that nonsense

[@VexJinks]

I'm not sure how the terms "mary sue/gary stu" can be so misunderstood. The terms are used in reference to characters that face adversity either physically, mentally, or both and have little trouble overcoming such obstacles, ultimately circumventing any real character development or progression; that's a mary sue/gary stu.

[@urquanoverlord2538]

Rule of thumb: Do they break the rules of the universe with the world bending around them or are they just powerful?

[@misterzygarde6431]

I clicked off of MeatCanyon’s newest video out of curiosity.

[@randomrandle9141]

Hi I'm peppa pig

[@vinegar3617]

I've always had a personal creed when it came to Mary Sues, specifically about the disparity between the ones you see in fanfiction and the ones you see in larger media: It's hard for me to hate or ridicule Mary Sues in fanfiction, because of a couple factors: a) fanfictions are derived less from committee and more from the personal fantasies of the author. There's a number of factors for why they would create their character to be a Mary Sue, like maybe having a crappy home life and wanting to have a small escape through creating art, so if they want to have a power fantasy there's really no problem since it isnt affecting anybody, and b) fanfictions are usually designed for the whims and desires of one person - the author. The priority for them isn't trying to garner universal appeal from a fanbase, it's for them only. The problem is crossing that threshold and trying to introduce that kind of writing to a broader audience by featuring them in a larger medium, where you're asked to really be invested in the character in order for the story to progress naturally. There have been stories like these featuring overpowered and/or stagnant characters which garner fanbases, but they're more often treated like oddities to gaze upon (Sonichu comes to mind although that also is debatably personal fanfic for Chris) and only really gather an ironic following. I can't really empathize with a character who I'm asked to take seriously when they display antisocial traits and get rewarded for it by the narrative. It just isn't analogous to how a person like that would be rewarded in real life.

[@tekwizwa]

While I completely agree that Giorno lacks emotion like 90% of the time, saying that his stand breaks rules in a world where a dime can be turned into a bomb that can split a kids head open is stupid, some stands are just legitimately better than others, Josuke (my favourite jojo btw) has a selfless personality, so his stand is selfless in the sense it can’t heal himself, Giorno brings life and meaning to his fellow gangstars so he creates life around him, even for himself as he pursuits the position of boss. TLDR: Complaining about Giornos stand was just finding more reasons to cherry pick Giorno when you already had a clear argument

[@dandare9055]

Recent Pokemon games - everyone praises you as chosen one Games I play like Underrail - everyone calls you 'newbie', 'pipeworker', 'halfwit' etc. and sad truth is that they are likely close to being right as you have a good chance to die in some ditch corner in many instances. So why the second one is preferred in my opinion? Well for one it makes sense and creates real challenge, which is not only justified but preferable. Same time you CAN become OP down the line either by trickery and tactics or by sheer amount of grind and character's around would actually acknowledge that. Once you (for example) win a long running death battle arena dominating gladiators with over a hundred kills under their belt - it's not expected, not by others and not by you considering how actually hard they are made on higher level. This makes it rewarding as suddenly you get acknowledged from being literal no one to being a 'legend in some circles'. Still there are people feeling cocky enough to challenge you 1 on 1 and thee are certainly groups big and strong enough to consider you a 'possible minor threat' or 'good aid we might wanna secure' but not epic chosen one by any measure. You gain status gradually and depending on your actual in game skills you may even end whole game as 'above average joe' or as 'literal demi-god 1-man-army'. Same time scaling is rewarding then as some 'optional battles' would against other people or creatures considered to be a legend, and for a good reason! So you can hack down 20 average run of the mill bandits now (mind you, a bit of a feat as 1 might be too much at beginning)? But do not go to that deep, deep abandoned cave as you might find something that is considered by some to not even exist... suddenly you fight a creature that might easily own you NOT just because it is that strong but the way it fights is so different and bizarre that you might not be able to defend before demise. You realize that it is not really 'stronger' than that 20 something bunch of goons but due to the way it works it would likely hunt them easily one by one and that's why so rarely anyone survived encounter with it - making it into legend. Other example would be a near god-like centuries old cyborg that holds experience and technology that regular weapons cannot compete with as it was considered lost since before last apocalypse, or a creature just genuinely so armored that your only chance it luring it into trap established only after you ally yourself with whole town of metalworkers. Ah I went off the rail again. Well the gist of it: even power fantasies work often better if you 'earn them'. It was like that for longest time. You do not begin Baldurs Gate I as some force of nature... and are not one even by end of it. But by end of second game you could be considered lesser god and your companions are not far from that - and that makes it EPIC

[@milesandrews6711]

Even in previous pokemon games you were basically the chosen one Even more so sometimes In gen 1 professor oak literally prefers you over his own grandson Gen 2 Lance is fine with you a like 12 year old kid dealing with team rocket Steven and Wallace literally wait outside the cave for you to fight the evil team leader all because you happened to have a certain orb in your bag, Cynthia as well in platinum watches as you fight both Cyrus and giratina and never thinks, maybe I the adult and champion of this region should deal with the world ending threat and not some random kid I have faith in for some reason Pretty much all pokemon games have this problem but sword and shield does alleviate it a bit with Leon actually doing his job as an adult and dealing with the threats like dynamax rampage and dealing with eternatus And when Leon fails the player dosent just beat eternatus clean but actually needs help from both hop and the legendary dogs and only then is able to catch eternatus At one point opal even rejects you as a gym leader candidate because you're not good enough for her standards

[@RubyDaLynx]

I think Goku is the greatest example of a Marty Stu. Bulma's hair gets more development than he does, and his only struggles in life is being weaker than a villain, until he gets a ridiculous power-up that is

[@p3mcthedoor32]

1. Not quite. Just because he doesn't "develop" much doesn't make him a marty stu. His character arc is how he changes the world rather than how the world changes him. 2. His naiveness and idiocy which leads him to making poor decisions (e.g. letting frieza power up when namek is in the verge of explosion and setting up the tournament of power) can be considered his greatest flaw. 3. He had proper training to get those powerups/transformations.

[@user-rv8yv4yh9n]

Part 5 for me always felt like 'the Bucciarati show' with how much he's featured, so giorno's gary-stu qualities didn't register as hard

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

IMO, he doesn't even fit that.

[@emanchi8403]

I finished seasons 1,3, and 4 of Korra but never finished season 2. I can confirm she isn't a mary sue considering she gets her ass whooped plenty of times and learns more throughout the series.

[@Walt305]

Exactly she gets character growth

[@BIGROYFAN7000]

Makoto is the only modern persona protagonist that feels like a leader of the group

[@tastethecock5203]

What? The real leader of the S.e.e.s. Is Mitsuru. Makoto does exactly nothing.

[@keshiaanders6452]

Another way that the term has been corrupted that it's also used as a lazy way of saying "Your character sucks," or (from what I've witnessed) "I hate your character because they are ruining my OTP that'll probably never come true and/or they stole my fictional crush whom I hypocritically paired up with an unoriginal recolor of a character from a different show." It's a long false definition, but it's one I won't soon forget.😒 Because I knew a "person" who was like that. She created hate arts of my characters all because she thought that I was a threat to her "OTP" and her non-existing relationship between her fictional crush & her poorly drawn OC. And worse, she started the whole thing about comparing and/or pairing me & my characters with one of the most notorious disgusting excuses of a human being because of it! I was a total lolcow target for years & I still feel so ashamed & humiliated.😔

[@jatelitherius9842]

Slowly healing people & polymporphing objects is OP but stopping time? nah that's fine

[@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps]

Luke Skywalker's strengths in A New Hope: He's a good-looking healthy youth. He's above average intelligence. He has (some unknown level of) strength in the Force. He's a very good pilot. Luke Skywalker's weaknesses in A New Hope: Without his strengths he's just a sheltered farmboy who can get in over his head ordering a drink in a seedy locale or fighting one person. Rey's strengths in The Force Awakens: She's a good-looking healthy youth. Her intelligence is very high. Her strength in the Force is of a level equal to or greater than Kylo Ren's. She's good at everything we see her even try (brawling, piloting, engineering, lightsaber combat, telepathy, Force Pull) and can't even pick up a lightsaber without the Force (which guided her to the lightsaber, I might add) filling her head with plot info flashes and the caretaker of it going "You're worthy of Luke Skywalker's lightsaber. I can sense it. Take it." or get through her first use of it without winning a duel against Kylo Ren. She's fluent in at least two languages spoken on Yakku and understands the droid language. Rey's weaknesses in The Force Awakens: Without her strengths.... umm... she has a short-ish temper?

[@UltraIsa297]

I need to say this I thought the big reveal of the last movie of the new trilogy would be that Kylo and Rey would be that they were embodiments of the force with kylo the dark side and rey the light side

[@Liex59]

8:29 Huh... Did anyone else just... Hear Red Like Roses playing in the distance? Or was that just me?

[@Fluffkitscripts]

Korra definitely isn’t a Mary Sue, at least in my opinion. Korra’s status IS her character fault. Think of a child star, someone who was told they were the greatest thing since sliced bread as a kid and never quite grew out of that. That’s Korra. Korra is highly overconfident and overly sure of her abilities, blundering into fights she can’t win and easily tricked by manipulators like tarlok, and her first character arc is about learning her limits and struggling through political treachery, instead of climbing in brute combat power like most protags. (That’s actually why she struggles with airbending, I think. She has trouble thinking of things in anything but an a-to-b linear dynamic, and airbending is about approaching problems from alternate angles instead of forcing your way through them. She’s never had to do anything but the brute force approach) It’s actually kind of a clever inversion of aang’s journey.

[@milesandrews6711]

Korra isn't a Mary sue she's a jobber I mean how you gonna be the Solomon grundy of your own show

[@lordodin5755]

we all know Joseph Joestar is the best JoJo

[@tnuhenaj3752]

All these series are power fantasies. It just depends on whether they are written right for their target audience and if the series spreads beyond its target audience or the audience is misjudged thats when you get the terms being thrown about. In the case of manga i've only read a few shojo manga but they are just as bad as shonen. The fantasies are obviously different as shojo are made to appeal to tweenage girls while shonen is boys but the idea is the same. In sailor moon the main character usagi is probably popular among girls, especially of that age because shes basically a self insert target. For me and i imagine many others pretty much every other character was more interesting than her. Likewise i think in general for shonen the male side characters will tend to be more appealing to women than the main who are designed to be a male power fantasy. Of course there will be men who like shojo protagonists most and women who like shonen protagonists most but i believe this is a general trend. So its just as bad for girl oriented shows. At the end of the day japanese media is all about escapism. The mainstream stuff anyway.

[@cobaltblu4196]

Gary stue. Mario. the only person who doesn't like you is Bowser, possibly not the spinoffs, but in the mainline games? oh yeah. total gary stue.

[@iliakatster]

I don't see Mary sue as having anything to do with being overpowered, going back to the original source from fanfiction to mean an indulgent self-insert character, being a Mary Sue typically means having all the characters inexplicably like you or hate you while envying you, and all plot points and character motivations revolve around you, so the litmus test is, if you can't identify any character motivations or plots not driven directly or indirectly by the character and every other character only has either a like or envious hate of the character, then they're a Mary Sue. For example, with Bella from Twilight, all the major characters in twilight are obsessed with her, Edward puts the life he's built for 500 or however many years he's alive and puts himself in trouble with both the vampire council and in conflict with the werewolves b/c of her. All Jacob cares about is getting her from Edward, all Edward's family care about is her and Edward being safe and happy, all the villains only care about killing or converting her. She's not powerful, but she is the driving motivation of every character. Meanwhile for LOK, you have Mako dealing with taking care of Bolin who keeps getting into trouble, their past ties to the gangs, Asami having to deal w/ her dad funding the equalist movement, etc. The president doesn't love or hate Korra, he finds her a nuisance, but is happy to associate with her if it means advancing his own political goals. The villains drive the plot by pushing their ideologies (ending bending supremacy, establishing spiritual traditionalism, establishing anarchy, and uniting the earth kingdom at all costs) which puts them in conflict with Korra, but she isn't their primary goal, just an obstacle. While Mary Sues are often given the amateur writer's trope of I-win-at-everything power and everything-proof armor given to them by the benefit of being the chosen one, that's not what makes them a Mary Sue, that's just a badly written power fantasy character. Even if that was what made a Mary Sue, Korra would not be one. The fan-fic OP character is usually just good at everything with no defined weaknesses except when convenient for drama. Korra is established as being a great fighter who is eager to kick ass, but is also established early to be rash, quick to anger, and terrible at diplomacy, establishing her as a foil to Aang. Her problems in the story come from having to navigate all these social systems that she's very ill equipped for. Her first fight in the city quickly establishes that she has no idea about how to handle a fight without causing massive property damage, and is constantly coming into conflict with the police and council about what she is and isn't allowed to do. And even in fights against the villains, its very clearly established that if she was given a proper one-on-one with them she'd win, but they take advantage of her overconfidence and impatient nature to draw her into bad fights, and that's why she keeps losing to them. If this was a story where everything was only about fighting, then you could make an argument that she's an OP main character, but in LOK the problems she's put against are mostly delicate political matters she is ill-equipped to handle. Its why a story like one punch man is interesting even with a main character that is literally invincible, because the main conflict isn't the fight, its Saitama struggling with what his purpose is, dealing with the politics of the hero system, and learning how to make friends, problems he clearly struggles with.

[@hugohickman7694]

14:33 Well, she was a looter stealing ship parts, even etc. so it makes sense for her to have some engineering experience. (I don't want to be defending her because the character sucks but I just wanted to say that)

[@hugohickman7694]

@Stumpanelli yes not in the same level but you gonna have more expertice than the averege person

[@Sarah-sl7ko]

I can collapse my own ear into itself, only on one side sadly tho...

[@FarronMoon]

I don't think the strength of a character has much to do with whether or not that character is a "mary sue" or not. It's sort of important but the key is whether or not the world itself ever challenges them or forces them to change in any real way. Korra, for example, is the exact opposite in this regard. Nobody except the main cast likes Korra at all, the whole of Republic city and the world at large treats her like a relic of the past at best and a menace to erase at worst. Shes criticized for every single step and choice she makes. Even the viewership is part of this dynamic, the world (fans) want Aang back, holding her to a standard of enlightenment (characterization) she had no reasonable way of accomplishing and all of her flaws shoved back into her face to the point of trauma and disability. Her hotheaded nature gets her thrown in jail in the first episode and shes beaten down until she, through pure powerlessness, becomes more spiritual and empathetic. Its almost like the writers were TRYING to bait people into calling Korra a Sue specifically to throw in back in their faces.

[@gibster9624]

No no, Ava is definitely a Mary Sue when she gets everything handed to her without earning it that belonged to other characters. Other characters had their story arc cut short or underdeveloped just to shower praise on Ava.

[@Just_A_Bait]

In my definition Mary Sue is a character that bends the laws of the universe to character's advantage. (If universe has it laws, even magical ones, the there is a system, if EVERYTHING is a part of the system, it is much harder to make something overpowered when it all works by same rules)

[@RatManSam]

Goku really loves Tringing. 1:58

[@tuckernutter]

Never stops stringing 2:00

[@aisnota5192]

Make Isekai Anime with Mary Sue's and nobody bats an eye. Put one in anything else and everyone loses their minds!

[@DocWolph]

In any series that puts ANY KIND OR AMOUNT OF EMPHASIS on training, gaining stats, earning the merit or right, Mary Sues or Gary/Marty Stus undermine any meaning of value in the training, the stats, or merit and the like. The hero is the most powerful for no reason other than "we say so" says the writer/creator. This is not helped by a creator getting stronger than everyone because, "We say so", and if they do train, it is NOTHING compared to what it is they are supposed to be accomplishing. Goku for example, stronger than everyone for no clear reason except "he's a Saiyan", gets stronger by training, but we never see him train aside from doing a few katas and some parlor tricks with his Chi/Ki. It's like a bodybuilder getting bigger and bigger but he is never shown doing more than pumping 20lb/9Kg weights and a few calisthenics, but never lifting the big weights stretches or special training techniques to have "the body of a living god". Nope 98lb weakling goes in to train and Atlas comes out an arbitrary time skip later. We the character does not have to try to actually get more skilled or stronger and just puts in some lip service to the work actually needed, that is a Mary Sue or Gary/Marty Stu as well.

[@ItsDeebs]

I only just watched episode 8 & 9. What I gathered from the overall theme across the trilogy is that Rey is a vessel through which the force seeks balance. Since Luke closed himself off and Leia weakened by age. There's no strong active presence of the light side in the galaxy when compared to Kylo Ren, Snoke and the Emperor along with his clones and minions. Then Rey appears. An inherently gifted girl, sent to a desert planet to hide her from her Grandfather, the Emperor. Where she spent 14 years growing up in a survival of the fittest environment hidden from the force until her meeting with Rebellion and First Order. The force immediately reaches out to her. Which is that loud mass of whispering voices we sometimes get to hear. That is what Rey is hearing _(but clearly)_ when she has that confused look before suddenly using a force power. The force, powered by the spirits all the past Jedi. Is literally telling her what to do. I'm not defending Rey's character. Just pointing out that her power does not come from her alone. Also I didn't think the trilogy was as bad as what a section of social media would have you believe. Was it great no, but it wasn't terrible. It was consistent with the average quality of the current Hollywood film industry. The people who complained about it pushing "woke" content were really grasping at straws as usual in their arguments. Exaggerating minor details and making false assumptions or claims. A common theme among culture war complainers. I watched The Mary Sue argument has its merits. When applied objectively. But we know that is rarely the case. Oh well. That's my two cents. Moving on.

[@theforgottenscribe]

My issues with the term, and why i view it as sexist to a degree, is because of the fact that, in fanfiction spheres where I encountered it most commonly, it is basically thrown at any female OC someone makes. It's used very often in stand in for genuine criticism in fandom spaces, and to dismiss the OCs. This is why I hate the term. Telling me X character is a Mary Sue doesn't tell me jack shit about what the gripes with the character are. What it does tell me is you hate the character and are being dismissive, so I very rarely take people who use it seriously. You, at the very least, explain and don't leave it at "Mary Sue". Edit: Why I consider it sexist to a degree is the fact it is RARELY aimed at male characters. It disproportionately is thrown at females over males.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

That might have something to do with the fact that female characters are disproportionately poorly written compared to male characters because of the narrow view so many writers have of what constitutes a "strong female character" i.e. focusing too much on the "strong" and not enough on the "character" Also, Power Fantasy and Gary/Marty Sue are the same thing and plenty of male characters are decried as "power fantasies"

[@yuurou7927]

Consequences are important. You make a decision and it will come with a lot of consequences good or bad. Mary Sue is a trope that completely ignores this. OP characters can be extremely well explored in character development, in fact Gu Long's work nearly all have OP protags with personal flaws thus struggle and pay the price.

[@isaiascanete6651]

I really love part 5, and enjoy Giorno, but yeah, his stand is absolutely broken. He cloned a turtle AND its stand. That's INSANE. that means if he practiced, in theory, he could clone any member of the team with his stand, making their combos and firepower increase in an absurd way. Hell, the fact that he can turn objects into spare body parts it's already totally bonkers. Everyone on the team could carry an extra eye or hand or foot, the only limiting factor in its utility it's that the other person needs the power to stitch the part together, but having Buccellati AND giorno capable of doing that, it makes it a stand that is OP as hell

[@hallowvenixya9215]

2:02 I mean Issei's powerset is genuinely based on emotions and imagination. It's basically designed so that nonsensical and undeserved/unearned power-ups can happen.

[@cww2490]

To be fair Marty Sue is never used by your everyday person like Mary Sue. I only heard of it once and that was when I was on a TV tropes page. I'm sure if you did a poll of who has heard of it before and know what it means few would know. And not sure if it is sexist, but I never seen a comment calling a clear Marty Sue male character a Marty Sue.

[@PestilentAllosaurus]

To think a horrible fanfic of Star Trek, named Mary Sue made this all. She was perfect, could do anything flawlessly. Was loved by EVERYONE. Effortlessly wins at everything without earning it. Given everything without earning it. She became so infamous, that anything seemingly like her was called out to be a "Mary Sue."

[@ethansargent]

Woah now there, Issie does train now and while he does have Drag the dragon does not make him strong on it's own. He's no training machine like Goku but that's because his power set is more reliant on how he uses the weapon. Plus give him credit, dumb he may be but he's got the balls to dare and be dumb and risk himself for others. He's no mary sue/marty sue.... Ok I'll give the born with power trope, but he at least wasn't destined to be great lol

[@ethansargent]

If I misunderstood the use of the Issie pic, I apologize 😆 I just like the dudes development and character.

[@demonbane1070]

Nah

[@Drakon_Minaka]

When it comes to video games, especially an RPG, I think that classifying someone as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu given that the character often works to get where they are. Take the Arisen for instance. They may be chosen by the dragon for being the only one able to even scratch it and having the courage to face it, but the Arisen is essentially just an ordinary human. They work to grow strong, and rely on their pawn(s) to make up for their shortcomings, such as me being a magic knight and having two physical pawns, so I have to rely on one pawn for proper magic use. It's hard for me to think of a mary sue/gary stu in games I've played because, in most cases, the person had to earn their power. The closest I can think of is our main character in Sword Art Online: Fatal Bullet, but even then in the beginning it seemed to come down to us being lucky and then us having to learn the game and earn our levels and strength. The closest thing you could do to call it a mary sue/gary stu game is if you go on dates with all the characters because that's a thing you can do. That and your character is looked at by everyone as someone, at the very least, interesting. Most saw you as interesting at first due to acquiring an Afasys (again through mostly being lucky if I recall) , but then they grow more interested as they see you grow, so I feel like that "oh you're interesting part" is merited. It's been a while since I played so theres probably stuff I forgot.

[@tylerjames805]

I got a Mary Sue that’ll piss everyone off: Mikasa Ackerman from Attack On Titan. The moment she joins the survey corps she’s just naturally gifted at killing and violence and things that should be character flaws are gotten over very quickly. I know it’s explained that the Ackerman bloodline is why she’s powerful (totally not a Mary Sue trait to be powerful just because) but even Levi had to train ever since he was a little kid.

[@rooster_key]

Obligatory "fuck youtube shadowbans"

[@friggen_roylty4368]

I still call Goku a Gary Stu. I know he's not 100% perfect. But I mean, you get your ass kicked for 4 episodes and then on the 5th somehow, you get a new hair color and power up (let alone instant stamina boost somehow) and we fans get to say, "oh cool his training paid off" when his training should've paid off before the star of the show was getting beaten by some random other alien lifeform. I'm more biased towards Vegeta or the humans so my argument can sound a bit unfair. Lol

[@cameronroy2129]

I wouldn't call star wars a dead horse given its still alive ... how it is isn't something I can explain.

[@mc_3232]

I'd like to make an argument as to why giorno isn't as much of a garry stu as you make him out to be. Now if you find giorno boring that's fine but there are a few things you are wrong on. Firstly you say giorno has no traces of Jonathan or dio in him. Well to start you have his very noble dream of becoming the boss to prevent the selling of drugs to children and when black sabbath kills the janitor giorno gets fired up and avenges the janitor fully intent on killing polpo for harming an innocent bystander showing shades of Jonathan. Now as for dio thats alot easier giorno shows absolutely no mercy to those who oppose him showing although his cause is just how he goes about achieving his dream doesn't matter just like dio. Now giorno's stand to crazy diamond showing how the limitations of it's healing doesn't apply to golden experience. This ignores that josuke's healing is way faster and that overall strenth and speed wise crazy diamond is far superior but also that giorno doesn't start our bieng able to heal he learns how to do it after applying his stand in a creative way after realise his enemies ability is the opposite of his own. You also metion how all the other characters show resolve and giorno doesn't this *Completely ingores* the white album fight when giorno shows his resolve by forcefully breaking his own arm in order to show white album gently weeps to mista and this is why mista looks up to him something you say everyone does for no reason despite having a clear reason. Thank you for coming to my ted talk

[@Ptr-ck7if]

i do see how giorno has some qualities of dio and jotaro, i feel like he was more talking about the fact that for it being set in the jojo universe it doesnt have much to do with the universe as a whole. like after part 2 we get an origin to the mask in part 1, in part 3 a villian from part 1 comes back, in part 4 a character from part 3 regularly checks in on the characters and helps guide them. in part 5 a character from part 4 is in the 1st few episodes and hes related to the character in part 1 and 3... but not much else, nor does this contribute in any way to older parts, nor does it contribute to any later parts (to my knowledge i havent finished part 5 yet). it kind of exists in its own bubble, its different from each season. thank you for hosting a ted talk

[@kohaku570]

the starwar movie is fine if we cut every scene that ray is in it and it will be a good shorts compellation for starwars and will be alright or even good

[@depressedasfook2893]

Korra is the best case of a Marie soon I've seen she is still enjoyable DESPITE being a Marie Sue or Marty stew which is so rare I've yet to experience another character written like that I don't hate

[@Rieky22]

She’s not a Mary Sue she actually gets beaten a lot and she’s not op

[@tuftedmocha7994]

A Mary Sue is a character that the author focuses overwhelmingly on to the detriment of every other character and the story itself, essentially allowing that character to warp the entire story to just be about them and basically nothing else.

[@Ptr-ck7if]

eh, its less of that and more of the fact that mary sues also bend the universe around them, like they're at the center and can bend or change any rule. like the rule about you needing to train and understand your power. mary sues ignore that. mary sues mostly ignore the rules set in their own universe so i cant really name concrete examples other than rey in a lot of scenes but im too tired and its been done to death

[@williamstark9568]

You could try uploading to odysee, rumble and bitchute and any other site that will let you be seen more. They won't demonetize you and you can still get seen more. It's what I'm debating doing for maybe an art project I want to start. I just can't bring myself to believe that youtube treats anyone or anything fairly. So honestly I am not even sure I want to use the site any longer. The only thing keeping me here looking is all the good creators youtube is screwing over.

[@alarmlessRifleman]

I don't remember exactly where have I found this definition of a Sue; it might've been Overly Sarcastic Productions or even my own brain, but that's irrelevant. My definition of a Sue is not someone who's overpowered, flawless, popular and are given everything on a silver plate - it's very common, but not obligatory. A Sue - especially recent ones, those that are made by/for edgy teens - can be *very* flawed, have an overly tragic life, act like bitches, be an outcast with no powers in the world where everyone is a magician/superhero, etc. But they would still be Sues because of the impact they have on a story. It's almost like they are a white dwarf or something. They have *too much* gravity, all events of the story are consequentual to Sue's actions, no matter if they are good or bad. All other characters only live when a Sue interacts with them, and after they're left alone, they just shut down like robots. Background and secondary characters in this case don't live by themselves - they only serve the plot that revolves around a Sue. And again: giving your character flaws, unpleasant characteristics and traumatic backstory won't necessarily save them from being a Sue. Watch out for the world you build and the plot you write. Your protagonist must be a *part* of both, not the *center*. If they receive attention from other characters, whether it's good or bad, there has to be a solid and believable reason. Plus, it would be great if you'd pay attention to secondary characters' development, it helps to make the whole picture more alive and believable. It was a rather harsh experience for me, to find out this formula and realize how badly I've screwed up with the stories I've wrote. But it also served me a lesson.

[@evangelista6953]

Why you gotta make me remember how much I hate Ava? Bad enough the DLC made me sad seeing Maya again in Kriegs mind palace.

[@HittingBandy]

Just to explain, Darth Vader's suit is entirely a life support system, both respiratory and urinary systems are handled by the suit, heck, even his vocal cords are his suit cause somehow his burned away after fighting Obiwan. Yes sure it does hurt as hell as well as lower his midichlorian count to the point where not only is he metaphorically a fraction of what he used to be, but also spiritually AND literally. I mean at least Palpatine had a sense of fashion in coming up with a design for his suit cause sure as hell his suit looks cool af, unless the Empire's portrayal of hyper elite super soldiers is to fashion them in black? And royal guards as red? God damn now who came up with the color coding?

[@shadowknight19100]

Why does “Yes. She cries, then gets touched by Aang.” Sound so wrong?

[@pn2294]

Only if you have a dirty mind

[@AndragonLea]

He touched her with His Noodly Appendages.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

Idk how you can even make it dirty

[@lawrencelopez9839]

Conditioning by the internet. lol.

[@TomEyeTheSFMguy]

WHAT THE FUDGESICLE

[@Strykerx31]

tbh, i like both designs, the skull head band is nice touch for call back. though, was up with the shirt?

[@Strykerx31]

@@Mangakamen ah, never got around to NMH.

[@mokaza40]

Dude pissed off Star Wars, Avatar and Jojo fanbase. Hes on suicide watch 😂

[@alenezi989a3]

Tbh starwars fans don't really care about Ray

[@ServantOfSatania]

Well, a niche groups of those fanbases

[@supervideomaker9136]

Tbh, it’s not hard to piss off Star Wars fans. Easily one of the most insufferable fan base out there

[@ServantOfSatania]

@Cactus Juice Misread it, what I should say is that it's really a writing criticism

[@royalgambit4508]

Hey don't classify people who like Rey as star wars fans.

[@dragon_slayer2026]

There's a KZbin channel, Literature Devil, with a definition of a Mary Sue that I find quite cohesive and works quite universally: The canon and logic of their setting bends irrationally to the benefit of the Mary Sue, and this leads to the other tropes. *They have power that it doesn't make sense for them to have. *Good guys like them who should logically hate or at least disregard them. *Bad guys focus on them who should logically ignore them. *Actions or mistakes that should result in failure instead directly push them towards success. *They possess exceptions to well-established rules. *Any character flaws or failings are superficial and tend to not actually be a detriment to the character or anything they want to do. Explanations in the story for any of these things typically boil down to a throw-away explanation or "because they're awesome!" Let's look at the titular modern Mary Sue, Rey "Skywalker." *With no training, she can resist Kylo Ren's mind-probing, mind-control a Storm Trooper, and beat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. Why? "Powerful light, powerful dark," or Palpatine's granddaughter, or Force Diad throwaway nonsense. *Finn immediately loves and wants to protect her for no apparent reason. She bypasses the compressor on the Falcon, so Han Solo loves her right away. *Kylo Ren immediately sees she's special and has to have her. Snoke wants her brought to him. Apparently she's very important to a lot of people for no reason. *She breaks into a bar's store room only to find a lightsaber. No one's perturbed by the break-in. The one fight she loses to Kylo Ren results in her being taken to StarKiller Base, where she then escapes to help destroy the base and beat him later. Surrendering to Snoke in TLJ results not in her imprisonment and torture but a chance to team up with Kylo Ren. Every "failure" or "mistake" directly results in good outcomes. *Skills and powers in everything from flying to Force use to lightsaber fighting require training. This is well established. Not for Rey, apparently. *All of her flaws, needing to belong, longing for her parents, etc. never really impede or impact her. They're more talked about than brought o bear. She ticks 6/6 of the boxes presented above. Let's compare to Anakin Skywalker. *Very very strong in the Force. But all he can really do naturally without training is have really good reflexes, and maybe a bit of magic insight when it comes to machinery. A little out there compared to what we've seen to be sure, but not nearly as bad as Rey. Beyond that, he still needs years and years of Jedi training to actually do Jedi Stuff. I'd give him at most a 1/2 on this one. *Qui-Gon Jin is is instantly drawn to him and considers him overly important. He's the only one. Padme just likes the cute kid in The Phantom Menace, and their connection later (while not well-scripted) followed from that. Obi-Wan and Darth Maul disregard him as anything of note. Obi-Wan only takes interest in him after Qui-Gon's death and only then because of Qui-Gon's wishes. The rest of the Jedi just see him as another Jedi. Some are annoyed by him and his arrogance. He is far from universally loved. He does not check this box. Maybe a 1/2 at worst. *As for bad guys, Palpatine is grooming him for a fall to the Dark Side, but for logical reasons: He's powerful, but young and naïve, easily manipulated. Darth Maul, Count Dooku and General Greivous really don't treat him that differently from any other Jedi. They run into one another because they are on opposite sides; there's no driving obsession. No check mark. *Anakin makes mistakes with major consequences. In The Phantom Menace, not so much (dumbly steals a Naboo Fighter, blows up the droid control ship), but after that, he pisses off the Jedi Council multiple times, gets his friends in trouble, and gets dismembered multiple times, and eventually falls to the Dark Side. His mistakes aren't constantly, or even regularly, resulting in good things. No check mark. *While he's abnormally powerful, and starts his training later than is normally allowed, he doesn't actually do anything that breaks established rules of how the Star Wars universe works. No new powers pulled out his ass. No one looking at something he does and saying "that's impossible," nothing of the sort. No check mark. *And his flaws and failings have serious impacts on him. Arrogance results in animosity with the Jedi Council, and the loss of limbs. Pride and naivety allows Palpatine to pull him to the Dark Side. These flaws are not just lip service. No check mark. Anakin hits maybe 1/6 of the boxes listed above. Canon and lore and logic do not bend to his will and convenience. That's my take on the Mary Sue.

[@carso1500]

And i would argue that that definition is pretty flawed (pun not intended) and what it defines isnt a Mary Sue, also the análisis given about rey is soo superficial level it's almost a parody, like defining a character should not be filling a laundry list to see if it "ticks some boxes", thats like literaly the worst way of defining a character specially when there is such a clear preference towards one above the other I'm just going to say this, Mary Sues, Gary Stues, Marty Sues or whatever don't actually exist, or atleast they don't exist in the way most people think they do, the term "Mary Sue" and how it has evolved is one of the biggest misinterpretations of basic tropes and archetypes in media that exist, theres a reason why profesional and seasoned writers don't ever use the term (have you ever see someone like Brandon Sanderson use the term "Mary Sue", no, because he is a seasoned writer with decades of experience he is above using such juvenile terminology), the characteristics that are usually atributed to Mary Sues are just basic writing tropes that every story has in some capacity, but used by young writers who are barely starting their potential carrers (thats why they are soo comon in fanfiction, many writers start their carrers writing about other persons stories) so they are misused and distorted in unintended ways because of a lack of experience and knowledge, but thats not because those tropes are "bad" or "wrong", is just bad writing and usually also bad prose by the hands of someone who is new and for now inexperienced Of something the blanked term of "Mary Sue" has caused more wrong than right, because it makes people and potential future writers confused and thats not a good thing

[@robertfullchim923]

@@carso1500 No, the criticism is solid and works to describe a variety of badly written characters. A lot of young writers start with Sue type protagonists. Good writers move on from it. Stop apologizing for Hollywood pedophiles and their bad writing.

[@carso1500]

@@robertfullchim923 What are you even talking about who said anything about pedophiles, as they say people hear whatever they want to listen

[@ImDudeRandom90]

Reading this just made me realize that Pikachu in the anime is a Mary Sue lol

[@AlbRomano]

@@ImDudeRandom90 That's only until Pikachu gets clapped by a level 5 snivy.

[@SteelSpurs]

Rey is not a Mary Sue. She is THE Mary Sue.

[@imyouralibi6208]

I think as far as Star Wars is concerned, Ahsoka's the bigger Mary Sue 🤔

[@imyouralibi6208]

@Stumpanelli Ahsoka had her butt kicked due to her arrogance and stupidity, and learning through osmosis is not a thing so just because she was trained by the Chosen One doesn't mean that she automatically make her as OP as she is. And I wouldn't call her battle hardened (if she was battle hardened, she actually display some common sense in battles, but she doesn't. Plus, she only got three years worth of experience in the Clone Wars) so much as desensitized to the point where she craves action and violence. Ahsoka is a subcategory of the Mary Sue known as a Jerk Sue: someone who behaves horrendously but is treated like an ideal character. And, as I already mentioned, she is incredibly overpowered, holding her own against characters like Ventress, Grievous, Bane, and Maul while sustaining no injuries. If you want a more in-depth breakdown of the character, check out my Argument Against Ahsoka series

[@nathansteele4358]

I thought Mary Sue was

[@wraithoftime4221]

@@imyouralibi6208 I was really hoping Ahsoka would be court martialed for some of her stunts getting Clones killed early on in the show. I find it bizarre she is the de facto Deputy Commander of Anakin's Legion. She is also one tool the writers use to make General Grievous absolutely pathetic.

[@imyouralibi6208]

@Lord Revan I agree that Rogue's powers were handled very well but that sort of thing simply doesn't apply in Star Wars.

[@Zelnyair]

I feel that there is a line between 'Mary Sue/Gary Stu' and a character actually being legitimately competent at what they do. For instance, if a character is established to be a doctor, and they're good at treating people, I'd just say that's obvious and expected. Obviously, this is not a complete waiver for any arguments for "A character is too perfect", since I think that's a valid opinion to have. However, I'm trying to point out I think there is a line you can expect for reasonable competency, perhaps.

[@Bladezeromus]

Or the thing that they are shown to be good at is only taken to a logical level. Like Rey being able to fight some mooks with her quarterstaff is fine but she shouldn't be able to do that to Stormtroopers or Kylo Ren (regardless of how injured he was. Seriously, I hate that argument. Superman would still clap Batman even if he had a kryptonite spear stuck in his gut).

[@TheAdarkerglow]

It's about stakes and struggles, dramatic tension and release. One Punch Man is a great example: Saitama is invincible and can defeat any foe in a single strike, but this runs contrary to his desire to find a challenge, and his personality and dull wits make him unpopular as a hero. So the stakes aren't his survival but other noble characters, and for him the possibility that he'll get his deserved recognition. There's drama and stakes and comedy. Rey is almost immediately liked by the heroes, desired and despised by the villains. We're supposed to believe she's vulnerable, but there's no evidence to support it, and when she is theoretically vulnerable they prolong it without reason and end it prematurely. When she makes mistakes, they 'accidentally' resolve her problems - rathtars eating the gangsters, getting captured by Kylo (unlocks her force powers, motives Han and Finn to rescue her and deactive the Starkiller Base Shields). Heck, the girl in TROS ambushes Rey and the gang to turn them over for creds, Rey beats them up, and Zori's literal words, "I like her". And because she has to like Rey, we have no conflict that she might betray them but have second thoughts because she likes Poe, so they kill C3P0 to try and inject emotional stakes.

[@omanite6129]

@@TheAdarkerglow I agree with everything you said.

[@masteryoraerasante]

In other words, the competency has to make reasonable sense and not be handwaved. When it does not that uas to be acknowledged properly. For example, I did not watch much Smallville after the first or second season but remember Lex was suspecting Clark being a meteor mutant. When Clark saved him in an almost-impossible way thanks to adrenaline, while surrounded by kryptonite, Lex asked how and Clark answered a very honest "I don't know" since usually he would just fall down weak just getting close to the stuff. Lex, of course, did not know it so took it as proof of secret powers.

[@carso1500]

@@Bladezeromus well for once no, Superman with a kryptonite spear through his guts would barely be able to walk let alone fight, so Batman would definetly defeat Superman under those conditions, so being injured and mentaly unstable definetly counts as a detriment (if you are a profesional MMA fighter but someone stabs you in the stomach would you be able to fight against another MMA fighter? Even if that fighter is a rockie) The thing here is i think a lot of people is mistaken when trying to describe a character as a "Mary Sue" or a "Gary Stue" since they have completly lost the north of what fiction is supposed to represent, in fiction we aint seeing normal people doing normal things, we are seeing exceptional being doing exceptional things, we are seeing people who are supposed to be special in some way, diferent to the norm, thats why for example in Game of thrones we follow the adventures and mis adventures of nobles and kings not peasant mc normal on his everyday life, in dragón ball we follow the adventures of master martial artists and alien gods not some random on the streets, why in avatar we follow the fucking avatar, not a random bender All of this stories are about the unusual, the special in some way, people that stands above the norm, so of course they will be prodiges, strong and powerful because that kind of people make for interesting stories, and while you definetly can tell a story about a normal person just going with his regular life usually those kinds of ideas only made it as a neat little spin off, because following the everyday life of a normal person isnt interesting in the long run (do You think your life would be interesting as a TV series?) But this "anti Mary Sue" movement of novice writers (because thats what most people making this videos are, novices with little experience) managed to accomplish is confuse aspiring writers, because they make the exceptional, the special into a crime, now of course there are limits, lines that once crossed reach the ridiculous and silly, but a seasoned and experienced writer aint preocupying about "not making a Mary Sue" but how to make a character interesting, because you can have a prodigy that is good at everything and write it to be interesting and amenable, there You have aang from the original avatar series for example

[@RealSlendyBoi]

The fact that the Avatar State does anything for Korra after season 2 really bothers me, because with no connection to the past Avatars, there's no previous power or experience on them to draw from. WHICH IS WHAT THE AVATAR STATE DOES

[@sofieknive7382]

she lost connection to the other avatars, but not raava she still is connected to the source of the avatar's power

[@SilvrSavior]

I agree that the Avatar State should have been weaker. It's kinda One For All in that the power gets increased with each new Avatar and if you lose any of the connections then it should be weaker.

[@sammydray5919]

@@sofieknive7382 so the past lives aspect of the Avatar state is meaningless and its all just raava then? God fuck legend of korra 🙄

[@shaawti]

Korra S1 finnalle, cries so she regains all her powers without having really earned them Korra S2 opening: * uses Avatar State to win a kid's race *

[@mysticdigital5936]

@@shaawti You're forgetting the part where the creators didn't even know if they were getting a second season and were trying to wrap up season 1 as neatly as they possibly could.

[@zeldamon4420]

Glad you choose to re-upload your video. Hopefully this doesn't happen again.

[@raikasha8152]

I don't see how Giorno is overpowered. Yeah he has a strong stand that can be helpful in multiple situations but the same can be said for a lot of stands in existence. Plus Giorno very rarely single-handedly wins a fight in Golden Wind. Heck in his encounter with Bruno the latter could've killed/neutralized Giorno several times. Giorno points this out himself and says Bruno went easy on him because he's a good person. The Polpo fight where Giorno needed help from Koichi, a far more experienced user to just to not be killed by Polpo's stand. And don't even get me started on the Pesci and Prosciutto fight where Giorno didn't do any battling at all. Giorno is strong but he usually needs the help of others to carry the team to victory. I also don't get how the Stand Arrow was a Deus Ex Machina since it had a lot of establishment.

[@vovabars1234]

Exactly Untill he gets the Requiem, Giorno is a versatile team player, not an overpowered unkillable god

[@vovabars1234]

Khanh Nguyen accurate

[@20thcentury_toy]

bro from the rules we know there's nothing stoping giorno from creating an army of dinosaurs from a pile of nails, the transformation doesnt require any equivalence in mass or density, he clearly does not need the knowledge of the actual things he tries to create as i doubt a 15 year old that barely goes to school in 2001 without google has any idea how complex bodyparts like eyes and internal organs are strucutured so he basicaly creates them form the abstract concept of things implying he could literally create anything, and the ability has no time limit whatsoever as none of his creations seem to have turned backe to it's previous form unless he comanded to do so, not even considering the fact he can genetically engineer his creation ass seen in the man in the mirror and king crimson fight, from wht we know he could clone anyone with a stand and that clone would be abbleto use said stand

[@dean_l33]

@@20thcentury_toy Well then we will have to call out the Araki self insert in episode 4 whose stand can literally re-write reality itself

[@20thcentury_toy]

@@dean_l33 yes. And?

[@bobbobbington6245]

My personal description of a Mary Sue is a character who is unchallenged by the universe. No matter how powerful someone is, there's always a bigger unseen force that will always be against you. In stories with Mary Sues, the universe bends to suit their needs or whatever the plot demands.

[@spaghetto9836]

I like it.

[@Ebon_Sean]

My definition runs more along the lines of "a character who is immune to negative consequences and/or meaningful onscreen hardship", since that's the ultimate point of writing them that way. So basically the same thing. By that definition, Rey absolutely is one, whereas Korra, who took plenty of heavy Ls (some of which were either long-lasting or permanent), definitely isn't.

[@Speculativedude]

The Annikan/ Luke argument makes not sense because Annikan Had nearly full Jedi training and yes Luke didn't have a lot, but he at least experienced the force when he saw Obi Wan and later did train with Yoda for a while. Ray had none of that. She just kept suddenly knowing how to do stuff. Never met a Jedi or experienced the force? No problem, just suddenly do the Jedi mind trick perfectly. Never touched a light saber? Start fighting badly and the suddenly in the middle of the fight close your eyes and you are all of the sudden the best!! Also Luke NEVER actually taught her anything.

[@EskChan19]

Also both Anakin and Luke lost most of their battles. Rey won practically all of them. When they say "Well Luke didn't have much training either", then yeah. That's why he was useless in Episode 4 except for being a great pilot (which is practically the ONE thing the movie establishes about him early on), his one fight in Episode 5 sees him losing a hand and in Episode 6 he trained a lot and practiced and STILL loses to Palpatine and only comes out victorious because Vader sacrifices himself for him. Same with Anakin. He goes through YEARS of training. But he still loses to Count Dooku the first time they fight and loses his arm, he still fails to catch Jango, and so on. And in the end he still loses to Obi Wan. Rey never loses. Sometimes she needs a bit of help to win but she always wins, she never pays any price, and even when she gets captured, she easily frees herself and being captured only got her closer to her goal anyway because it gets her right to where she wanted to go anyway.

[@Archon3960]

Who is this "Annikan"? xD Also, yes, it makes no sense... from a certain point of view. Arguments can be debunked. You can't just say "It makes no sense because shut up". Here's some contructive thoughts. Rey knowing about the Force and learning to use it is (very) rushed, true, but one could speculate she read about it. She knows about Jedi legends after all. She already had the Force, but she didn't know it yet. A mage/wizard can use magic without controlling it. Same for the space 'Force' magic. I would've rather seen her breaking through her bonds with a Force blast, true, but the whole thing can be explained. As for Kylo Ren loosing, he took a blast from a Wookie crossbow in the liver. He's not gonna be so fresh after that. And it is in character for him to get his ass kicked by a random, because he's just a Vader fanboy/wannabe. (He's just Kylo Wrecked! x)) Plus, the Force is and always has been a Deus Ex Machina in Star Wars. (Yes, it is. Fight me.) Even though I have problems with this arc in retrospect, Luke _did_ teach Rey about Jedi history and feeling the Force. There's also this bit about "not rushing in impulsively" that was unfortunatly put into the deleted scenes for some reason. Just wished she finished her training with Leia, but what can you do... And despite having typed all of this, I am not a Rey fan. She felt like a meh character to me - especially compared to Luke and Anakin as a main character-, and how she turned out in RoS was garbage. I much prefered her Colin Trevorrow version - that sadly we'll never see because Bob Iger got cold feet after all the fan backlash from TLJ. :/