Bret Devereaux on Ancient Greece and Rome 8/30/21

[@andrewsoboeiro6979]

I always felt like the First Punic War was just absolutely insane. Like, Rome kept building these huge fleets & losing them in hurricanes, over & over again until they finally managed to actually use some of the ships they built in combat

[@florida1289]

To me, Pompeii may be the single greatest find. It's almost as if mother nature gave us a picture of what life was like 2k years ago. My brain is completely blown away by it.

[@geopietro]

Fascinating. Informative. Superb. Thank you.

[@annascott3542]

This was a fantastic conversation. When you guys were discussing the nuances between warriors and soldiers and their roles in society it made me think of an interview I watched recently with a scholar of the ancient near east, who mentioned YHWY being a warrior deity; in light of this discussion, I think that has an effect on society where that type of deity is predominantly worshiped/believed in, I know I see it, or undercurrents of it in our own society.

[@benjaminperez969]

I really liked this conversation/interview - thank you. Request: bring on professor Bruce Gilley (author of "The Case for Colonialism") for a conversation/interview - that'd be great (as well as bold).

[@econtalkwithruss]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@armentumhominum9931]

1:06:15 Strange that Russ didn't have anything to say about that.

[@econtalkwithruss]

What do you think Russ would think about that?

[@stephenlight647]

I also have to add, that the concept of extolling the virtue of the warrior only seems superfluous to the good Professor because the next village isn’t coming over the hill to revoke both his tenure and, not coincidentally, his life. How cruel and unnecessary are those virtues when you have no experience of the alternative!

[@gianlucarossi5672]

What Devereaux says here is not entirely true. The so-called "black Romans" were referred to as Ethiopians by the Romans and not as black Romans and they were considered as very exotic people. Besides, most African mercenaries in the Roman army were North Africans and thus not exactly black. With that being said, there were SSAs/Nubians present in Rome, but the number of them was rather small. Plus, not every Roman subject was a "Roman" since the Roman citizenship wasn't granted to everybody and had to be earned. Only when Caracalla who was of Punic and Syrian descent became emperor, people from the entire Empire became Roman citizens. Moreover, BBC made a documentary about Roman Britain where most of the Romans were black and some Celts too. A totally misrepresentation of historical reality. So, no wonder that the people complained about this portrayal of Roman Britain. It's true that most Italians don't look like Nothern Europeans, but they aren't majority olive skinned either. Devereaux was definitely not in Northern Italy. Anyway, it's absurd how this scholar lumps Italians with North Africans in one group as if they were similar which they aren't. What he also fails to understand is the fact, that modern Rome has lots of recent immigrants, foreigners and tourists from all over the world like other European cities. France and UK are today totally diverse too. It's beyond me how Devereaux assumes that everybody who lives or resides in Rome or Italy is a native Italian.

[@adamsmith5118]

Latium is closer to North Africa than cisalpine Gaul - the Mediterranean was practically a highway back then. And how is the BBC doco relevant to what devereaux is saying here?

[@fabianmiron2782]

@@adamsmith5118in antiquity a highway was not used by the masses but by the elites and their armies. The vast majority of people were peasants and labourers who didn’t leave their place of upbringing except for special circumstances like war or a social/economic crisis. There was absolutely immigration to Rome and presumably other major city’s but nowhere near where it was normal to see blacks in Britannia on either side of the conflict.

[@stephenlight647]

It is always entertaining to watch the modern Academy twist itself into pretzels in order to make Rome look like Brooklyn in 2023 and ancient Sparta as a very inept group of Fascists (a twentieth century concept, btw) that were really just a fanboy confection by the evil ruling class of Athens. 😂 It’s so very revealing.

[@adamsmith5118]

Lamda boi goes brrrrrrrr

[@albireoselous]

"Making Rome look like Brooklyn"...THIS is what you got from the conversation?! Really? You're an example of failed education. Seriously failed..Not paying atttention, no comprehension, no interpretation, no critical thinking, transferring current politics on to the historical subject...you totally missed the point how brutal, violent, NOT tolerant was Rome when it served their interests and that is just for a start.

[@gerardcraig]

Sorry, great topic, but Bret please work on cutting back on the 'um's

[@gianlucarossi5672]

It seems that Devereaux conflates Republican Rome with Imperial Rome. The Senat during the Republican period was indeed pretty much homogenous since Rome wasn't an Empire. However, Cisalpine Gauls had representatives in the Senat. Only later when Rome became a vast Empire some non-Italic Romans, including some Freed men became part of the Senat. By the way, the British actors who portrayed Mark Anthony and Caesar could pass as Italian. Ironically an Italian actor portrayed Vercingetorix, the king and chieftain of the Gauls.

[@adamsmith5118]

Repeat after me: THE SENATE HAD NO FORMAL POWERS (the republican senate was also staffed by ex-magistrates from 318BC, and so was open to practically all citizens. which - as devereaux discusses - was a fairly diverse group)

[@fabianmiron2782]

⁠​⁠@@adamsmith5118the is is completely wrong. The senatorial system only collapsed during the social wars and romes growth into an empire but saying the senatorial system before that had no power is ridiculous. The Senat also was famously formed of upperclass Roman which were the elite of the elite. The most xenophobic people in the entire state were likely from there. Just look at what they have to say about Greeks and Egyptians living in Rome. Not only was the Senat discriminatory against non romans it was the same way also against fellow romans who were not wealthy. Cicero for example very often compares working romans (proletarii) as rubble

[@C.Zacarias-Main]

It sounds like the Roman Empire is a multicultural and multiethnic nation. The Bible states that the Roman world/time of Jesus was made up of many nations. Interesting!!

[@armentumhominum9931]

Every nation is multicultural and multiethnic. Always have been. But not in the way progressives want.

[@gianlucarossi5672]

The Roman Empire was multicultural since the Roman Empire stretched over 3 continents. That said, the ethnic Romans were European Italic.

[@IageF]

I suppose this is interesting if you don't mind listening to someone wax poetic about diversity and inclusion for half an hour. I got bored and quit the podcast. I've heard this monologue too many times, and while I don't really object to the central points, it's just so dull to listen to. Didn't know anyone could make ancient Greece and Rome a boring subject, but hey, there's a first for everything.

[@adamsmith5118]

How is pointing out Rome's cynical exploitation and co-option of foreign nations waxing poetic?

[@GrandPurple1306]

Everytime I hear this argument I feel that we forget to take into account the social structure of that time. Roman and Greek history and cultures are the best documented through scripts and archeological findings than any culture of western world and many of the Eastern! Through new archeological methods we add new things we learn about these cultures. The Hollywood model of depicting these cultures is not only inaccurate but mostly disrespectful and insulting. As for the comment for Christian religion preserving ancient scriptures and protecting ancient monumentsis mainly incorect. It is well documented that the Christian Church during the 3rd 4th and 5thcent CE was responsible for the destruction of ancient scientific scriptures and monuments. Most Churches were built on the ruins of Ancient temples and many scriptures that survived were taken under the "protection" of the Catholic church hidden in the Vatican City .The fact that there is alot of discussions the last years trying to diminish the importance of these cultures to the evolution of modern western civilization is very confusing and I would say rather suspicious!

[@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302]

molon labe fight me

[@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302]

OK LIBERAL. SPARTA would BEAT AFANSTAN!

[@ManiacMayhem7256]

@@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302 1. Your English is terrible 2. Sparta got wrecked by Thebes, Phillip and Rome, it wouldn't stand a chance in Afghanistan

[@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302]

@@ManiacMayhem7256 I am a born American SPARTA WAS NEVER CONQUERED!

[@ManiacMayhem7256]

@@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302 Sparta was defeated and conquered several times. You're an American playing Larp for a bunch of baby killing eugenicists

[@changingyoutubeusernameisn7302]

@@ManiacMayhem7256 They never killed babies where are the bodies? No historical evidence for your claims research for yourself instead of following like a sheep.