British Second Issue 1958 Pattern Web Equipment - Mid 1960s to Mid 1970s

Second issue British 1958 Pattern Web Equipment as used from the mid 1960s through to the early 1970s.
Karkee Web 1958 Pattern page - www.karkeeweb.com/1958main.html

[@paulevans7742]

I'm convinced that stuff weighed 20lbs more when it rained and got a good soaking :)

[@gusgone4527]

It did! Which is why we always had to tab through water obstacles to get everything regimental + green, wet and uncomfortable.

[@stevesheppard342]

It did and shrunk

[@Samknstuff]

Lol

[@thomasmusso1147]

A nice share .. thanks. Shades of my Kit Issue .. National Service Intake, 5 SAI, Ladysmith, South Africa, 5 February 1968. I can still remember our kit orientation in our Bungalow. After Supper (first exposure to the food 😨, the 'Varkpan' (Pig Pan and the Forking-Knife-and-Spoon) .. but then, at still 17 yrs old, I had just survived 5 years of Boarding School 😊). Our Instructor was a Corporal 'Jakkels' (Jackal) de Jager. A nice guy actually. Was not there long .. volunteered for and shipped off the Paras in Bloemfontein 4 weeks later. Good Memories ..

[@robshirewood5060]

A company called Busby and Co Ltd (inc Rudge Brothers) had a contract to make the end tips, D rings, slides and adjusters etc on both 1944 and 1958 pattern webbing. My aunt used to work for them in Birmingham/ The 1944 type were aluminium with a special green plating or painting as you probably know. The 1958 could be found in Brass, Aluminium and Steel pressings not sure if they were experimental or actual issue.

[@mark6809mm]

I ditched the kidney pouches and replaced with water bottle pouches. I even used a 44 pattern water bottle pouches which was good. The Larry large pack as we called it was ditched in favour of a SAS Bergan.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Always interesting to hear personal accounts, when did you serve?

[@mark6809mm]

Served for 22 yrs. Queens Regiment the PWRR from 1982 to 2004.

[@ascendedfashy9632]

Whenever I hear that intro, I can't help singing the words.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Aha, which words? There are several versions!

[@ascendedfashy9632]

@@RiflemanMoore the one that a certain testicle lacking person finds quite offensive

[@exbritishforcespatriotscha7723]

I58 Web ing was used in to the nineties

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed but this is a video covering the second issue components some of which were being replaced amongst front line troops by the 1970s, the change was mainly to the larger third issue amminition pouches, I'll be doing a video of a 1970s to 1990s set soon.

[@pdallen8355]

The 44 pattern water bottle and carrier were far superior.

[@RiflemanMoore]

+P Allen I wholeheartedly agree.

[@simonsignolet5632]

Points to note: 1st edition sleeping bags had *NO* waterproof base. 1st edition ponchos weren't nylon, (from memory) I think they were a rubberised canvas. Before I ever thought of collecting militaria, I swapped my horrible rubberised poncho: it was quick to lose it's waterproof capabilities and it stank.

[@RiflemanMoore]

+ Simon Signolet Interesting note about the sleeping bag, thanks! I have a video on my channel looking at the pre-nylon 1962 Pattern poncho.

[@r3gsmyth3]

I still have my pistol pouch and belt with a few ammo pouches, that I use to display with my Browning.

[@gunner678]

O I remember both patterns well, particularly difficult when the bloody thinks shrunk. I liked the belt, which I kept for my 95 pistol holster.

[@RiflemanMoore]

That was one of the issues with cotton webbing, though it was supposed to be pre-shrunk there was often some shrinking left in it if it got soaked!

[@micahfrye8885]

I bought one of the upper packs about a year ago thinking it was a us m45 field pack upper after looking more I knew it wasn't. Thanks for making this I had no clue what it was.

[@RiflemanMoore]

No worries, glad it was useful!

[@spanishunboxinromero6595]

Really avanced in time War equipamiento,thanks for teaching this items.best regards,Paco

[@RiflemanMoore]

Glad you found it interesting!

[@camrenwick]

58 pattern webbing was issued well into the 80s

[@RiflemanMoore]

It was still worn by many into the 1990s. Some of these components are early issue however and had largely been supplanted by the '80s. Hence the date range in the title.

[@jimshady07]

Brilliant video as usual, out of interest where was the army issue golok carried within the web belt or attached to the pack i recently bout one but cant find any reference pics as to how it was carried. Where all troops issued a golok or was it training specific? All the best - Jim

[@RiflemanMoore]

The Golok would be carried in it's sheath on the belt, generally speaking.

[@Aramistoteles]

Rifleman! First allow me to congratulate you for the truly great and informative videos you put together, they condensates a lot of knowledge in to an easy to understand fashion. The only shortcoming is the audio, the audio mate, is terrible... Sometimes you move away from your mic and we completely miss your voice, also we need to use our dealer devices on max to reach an acceptable level of sound clarity. But again, your work is very impressive and informative and for that I truly appreciate you. Farewell

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks Oscar! Sound is something I've tried to improve in more recent uploads, I hope it's made some difference.

[@MrSlitskirts]

Hi, great clip and subject, this includes the 1st clip too. plus also, great improvement by using the tripod, please keep using it, regards.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thank you!

[@mattybrewster8523]

Hi just a general question what equipment would have been carried in the kidney pouches Thanks

[@RiflemanMoore]

The kidney pouches were used to carry a variety of things throughout the webbings service life. Typixally small items like the mess tins, wash kit, spare socks, etc.

[@lewisdean22]

You had you 24 hours ration pack, washing kit with towel, boot cleaning kit.

[@lewisdean22]

I had this in 81 doing training, then cyprus for 2 years then the UK for 6 and a half and it never changed.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, including the smaller, straight hanging ammunition pouches?

[@lewisdean22]

@@RiflemanMoore yes even the straight ammo pouches with the clips on the bottom to clip into your poncho roll. You always seemed to get a mix of old kit and some up to date stuff. Just as long as you had the correct amount of pouches.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Very interesting thanks for the info. Though it has to be said all 1958 Pattern ammunition pouches I'm aware of had the rings for clipping to the poncho roll, early or late, straight or angled.

[@shanewaite3598]

I did my basic training pirbright 96 and we used these! My mate doesnt believe me but in training I didnt know any better , then phase 2 got the new kit and the large pack difference was huge

[@RiflemanMoore]

I can well imagine the change over, the '58 pack really is terrible.

[@shanewaite3598]

Jim Timber I dont remember the assault course having names , the hills outside camp did like concrete hill, seven sisters and heartbreak hill. The only good thing about being at Deepcut after Pirbright was being able to explore the woods at leisure on your days off rather than being beasted around them. The pack was ok but i remember the sleeping bag alone took up atleast 50% of it. It looks cool though

[@simonsignolet5632]

Yoke: doesn't this second type have three rivets reinforcing the stitching of the digging tool attachment? I hope there's not an intermediate version that has the pack strap loops but DOESN'T have the rivets...

[@simonsignolet5632]

TWO rivets - just checked...

[@alexfogg236]

I wounder if 3rd pattern ammunition pouches from 58 pattern webbing gear would work on a us pistol belt?

[@RiflemanMoore]

+alex fogg All '58 Pattern pouches would fit on the US belt, the belts are roughly the same width.

[@treb2489]

They do fit as we test mixed kit before the new at the time CS95 came out we all so tested them on the U.S Body armour and they fitted

[@badgertheskinnycow]

Interesting vid buddy. I could say a fair bit but one main point to understand is that when revised (2nd /3rd) issue webbing was devised it was issued on a 'waste out' basis. This means it was NOT issued as a single set - simply on a replacement basis when original items were worn out. Add to this that webbing was issued at a local level (G1098 stores) and they were retained in service as long as possible. The result of this is that it would have been very very rare to have ever come across a set of 58 made up entirely of only 2nd issue items. I was in until the late 80s and even then you could find 1st issue 58 items being used !!! Lastly - although it was not strictly 58 kit - in the whole of my service I never wore a full set of CEFO/CEMO 58 without a respirator pouch - neither would have anyone else in the Regular Infantry I would suggest. It was always worn on the belt. BTW well done for not calling this a load-out :-)

[@RiflemanMoore]

+skill centre Thanks for the info! I understand components were mixed an matched, at the end of the day to the army a pouch was a pouch and a yoke was a yoke, I've noticed this particularly in photos of second line troops, for example a chap in the RCT directing traffic in the late '80s and still wearing a first issue ammo pouch with his SMG mags jammed into it but by this time third issue components were the norm so that's what I've based the date range for these videos on. For the purpose of showing the evolution it made sense to look at the progression of components together. I have seen a fair few photographs from the '70s and '80s of chaps on exercise without the respirator haversack but they may well not have been infantry? I haven't included it because as you say it's not part of the web equipment per se and I am covering respirators, haversacks and associated contents in other videos.

[@badgertheskinnycow]

I agree that for the purpose of the vid upon the use of all 2nd issue is a fair idea . My point about the resi pouch is based on having served in three regular inf regiments - all had the SOP of wearing a resi pouch with 58. The exceptions include NI - were it was not compulsory and in the Falklands were the NBC threat was not deemed high. However, these are still very much exceptions - wearing the pouch was the general 'rule'.

[@treb2489]

@skill centre you are right with the resi pouch i was with the Artillary and it was all so compulsory when wearing full webbing only thing we modded was the poncho roll we had it on top of the kidney pouches instead of underneath ( advantage you did not nead to take it of when sitting in a vehicle ie the bedford or the TM ) plus we all so removed the spade straps and that badly places pin in the middle of the yock....

[@gunner678]

r s same here, ex gunner so pretty standard it seems!

[@billmagowan1492]

I’ve a set of ‘58 which I’ve just inspected to find the yoke is the first pattern without strap retainers! I’d never have noticed that detail if I hadn’t watched this video ! Everything else is 3rd pattern alas

[@knockerjr]

Hi there, just a quick one how was the ponch stored in the roll? was it just folded in half with the poppers then rolled and stored? cheers :)

[@RiflemanMoore]

+Matthew White As far as I'm aware it should be folded to the width of the carrier and then rolled but I've not seen anything official on the process. As tidily as you can is the answer I think!

[@knockerjr]

Rifleman Moore fair one! cheers mate, as a side note is your first name Simon by any chance?

[@RiflemanMoore]

+Matthew White It is indeed!

[@knockerjr]

Rifleman Moore pleasure to meet someone else who dabbles in Royal Naval Division! we're few and far between!

[@RiflemanMoore]

Matthew White Ahh, excellent! As you say not many people cover it...

[@cameronmcintyre8928]

Nobody wore the poncho roll below A good bit of cat gut thread to stitch the pouches together helped but even the old seasoned stuff shrunk in the rain - you could carry huge weight in them but again it dug in and caused rubs or burns in the wet This is from my dad who served in a highland regiment

[@RiflemanMoore]

The poncho roll was certainly worn below the kidney pouches, especially earlier on before the kit began to be customised, it's exceptionally common in photographs, you have to remember this equipment was in use for over 30 years! Interesting anecdote though, what exact time period did your father serve? I've heard of the pouches being stitched or laced together previously to stop them bouncing around, makes a lot of sense!

[@norman6595]

@@RiflemanMoore Often 2 poncho rolls would be carried - one for poncho and one for NBC suit (as we called them then). Used to take bloody hours to fit the suit into the roll!

[@DavidFraser007]

I remember struggling to get my NBC suit and a poncho into the bum roll

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, a tight fit, even with the second pattern with the third set of adjustment loops.

[@Danny-zi6xw]

i bought a cursed cursed pattern 58 belt with 6 canteen bottle pouches and its haunting me

[@worldwideview4677]

Nice

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks!

[@planes124]

would British soldier in the falklands use 58 pattern webbing?

[@RiflemanMoore]

+planes124 Yes indeed.

[@pdallen8355]

Yes we did.

[@gunner678]

planes124 yes unfortunately. It shrinks when sodden!

[@lee8830]

yes with burgans not the issue holdor most soldiers bought there own burgans

[@mh53j]

I mentioned on another video somewhere that I have seen pictures/video footage of at least a few Paras in Falklands wearing US canteen covers with water purification tablet pouch on side. A few years back 58 pattern webbing was being sold here in the US by large outdoor supplier, including the pack. Customers complaints flooded in once they found that pack could not be used independently without rest of 58 webbing. Even though there was a note stating pack needed to be "modified" if intent to use on this manner. Americans still have trouble mastering the English language!

[@davidalexander8649]

Where is the respirator haversack. BAOR always carried them on the belt!

[@davehopkin9502]

Yes it was attached to the belt behind the ammo pouch

[@user-qk9ef6kf5d]

The water bottle carriers would make you unforgettable when you are doing CFT training。😌

[@gunnerhoward3134]

Yes Sir, I remember that shit all to well, weighed a ton when wet, shrank and dug in to skin. Was issued with that until 1992 !

[@RiflemanMoore]

It is amazing how long it took the British Army to switch to nylon, especially given all the recognisable disadvantages you mention with cotton webbing.

[@gunnerhoward3134]

Indeed Sir. The Army knows how to get it's moneys worth :)

[@mickhall88]

Still being issued in the early nineties.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, however, this is made up of second issue components, many of which had been superseded by the 1990s.

[@lynnecromack4933]

Those twist clasp water bottle pouches were awful. 44 patt canteen covers were the way ahead.

[@luderickwong]

This thing is bloody heavy in rain or in landing. Besides that, it is ok durable.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, nylon equipment was definitely a step forward in terms of kit getting wet!

[@luderickwong]

@@RiflemanMoore if i had to find some advantage for canvas pouch, i will say heat resistance. After 1000~2000 rounds, when the barrel is red hot, if your nylon gear touches the barrel, it will melt, canvas won't. It will steam out all the moisture.

[@davidbrennan660]

Many moons ago ( early 90s )I came across a white plastic water bottle and maybe cup if I remember correctly it was in the mystic past so please forgive .... . Has anyone else come across such a thing?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I'm afraid I can't help you with that, not something I'm aware of but something I'd be interested to know more of.

[@apollo8972]

Still issued 1991

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, I've done a third video on this looking at the later third issue components which covers issue into the mid '90s.

[@lawrencemartin1113]

Your films are always interesting and informative, but you really need to sort out the sound quality. I have watched a few where, if outside, the wind noise makes what you are saying pointless and it is so frustrating or you are often too quiet and too far from whatever mic you are using. Friendly Advice: Either learn to become an RSM, (!!) or save some money from buying surplus kit and invest in a decent mic that has decent coverage and can be fitted with a wind screen. I use an Audio-Technica AT2020USB for voice over and recording work and it is superb. There are many others out there though that are cheaper and will certainly be better than what you seem to have. Love your channel though, so please don't think I am being unfairly critical! "Right, that's all Rifleman Moore, carry on".

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yep, it's been a learning curve. I'd like to think it's better in recent videos and should improve further now I have new editing software. Unfortunately the 80 Years of Airborne Forces video, which was particularly bad, was out of my control as the bulk of the footage was provided to me by a media chap from the Parachute Regiment.

[@lawrencemartin1113]

@@RiflemanMoore Hello again! Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and I hope you didn't mind me giving crit! I totally understand the challenges and I wish you all the very best with the channel. I am a very amatuer military history fan with a particular interest in WWII SOE, SAS, Long Range Desert Group and JEDBURGH teams. Much of the kit you show has been used in part by these type of units/groups, so it is interesting seeing how it is worn as part of the original 'correct' design concept. I love the way equipment was chosen and customised for its practicality or availability for covert or 'strike' ops and not used as full sets of webbing or uniform. The Mix and Match approach to choose what works best or feels right for the job and environment is still key to success in these situations and it appeals greatly! Anyway, keep up the good work and all the best with the tech! (You don't happen to have a genuine WWII 'SAS' camo smock lying around do you!? (If you do, sell it and buy a house with the proceeds!).

[@exbritishforcespatriotscha7723]

It was taken to the first gulf war..

[@RiflemanMoore]

This is looking specifically at second issue components, which were introduced in the mid '60s and were in common use until the mid '70s, by then third issue components became the norm (the larger third issue ammunition pouches) and I'll be doing a separate video on a 1970s-1990s set in the coming months.

[@paulhowden720]

Shrinks when wet

[@lewisdean22]

I had most of that rubbish in 1981 , we could produce great troops but with rubbish kit.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yes 1958 Pattern is much maligned and with good reason, it took far too long to find a replacement really.

[@chrissheppard5068]

It was fricking awful. Weighed a lot and when wet far worse. To top it off it made you look like a prize fool...mind you the cherry on that cake was the puttees. Still being used well into the 90ties. As a RM we never used the pack and bastardized the webbing. It was awful.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Sentiments I've heard from many, particularly the puttees, took us long enough to develop high leg boots and even then it took several goes to get them right!

[@chrissheppard5068]

The first high leg boot was fine I had a trial pair and used them in 82 down south...BUT the cheap bas tarts then put them out to tender and they got made on the cheap and fell apart. The new helmet in the 90ties...immediately covered your eyes when you got into the prone firing position...they use some right clowns in the procurement of mil kit. Now after Iraq and Afghan the infantryman kit is super.

[@RiflemanMoore]

That sounds about typical re the boots, I'd always assumed there was a flaw in the design from the start, interesting to hear it was again due to cost cutting. I've heard that complaint about the Mk. 6 helmet before too, as you say the mind boggles over what some in procurement must have been thinking.

[@tallshort1849]

God it was bloody horrible to use

[@RiflemanMoore]

I've heard that from a lot of people!

[@exbritishforcespatriotscha7723]

You ain't got a clue mate.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Please elaborate. I've explained the issue regarding dates in answer to your other comment. If I've missed something else I'd be interested to know. All the information I've presented in the video is based on known or inferred dates of introduction referring to the fitting instructions etc.

[@johnlamond4463]

Awful stuff. Belt OK. Kidney pouches and poncho role... terrible.