Duo Q Is NOT For Improvement | Broken by Concept 196 | League Of Legends Podcast

[@younggod5230]

if duoQ is so bad, why are you a duo on the podcast then????????????????

[@N9Nate]

You’re a troll.

[@younggod5230]

@@N9Nate Ummmmmmmmmm yes it's called "a joke"

[@000azeva]

@@N9NateYou're no fun

[@N9Nate]

Ask how much I care about your opinions.

[@chi0224]

Got’em

[@JungleWatcher]

Curtis: here they lose the game, blame it on themselves and fall in a state of mental desperation Nathan: Love it :)

[@diversisle6739]

Didnt expect the JFK assassination to be a topic of discussion during game lmao

[@younggod5230]

Lmao, me anytime a caitlyn is in game

[@coolmash]

I fall asleep to your podcasts, training my subconscious mind into becoming better and better in my sleep. Soon I will be challenger, able to 1v1 faker in my sleep easily.

[@adriennemaerealingo8799]

😂😂😂 (2)

[@garagavia]

I think Curtis was right when he said duo can be good for short intense periods. I did 10 duo games over a weekend where we were focusing and tryharding. That was fun, and we learned. Then back to solo. 10 games out of 200 is a drop in a bucket in terms of elo, but it was good to see another perspective and play a bit deferently in those games. Just like subjects in school are mainly an individual effort, with a few group projects sprinkled in, so too can a soloq journey be improved by a few good sprinkles of duo. The prerequisites is that you're on the same page, both playing to learn

[@DeMafiaGirl]

I'd love to see you guys do an episode with an ADC main and break the role down the way that you did with top and support. I don't see people talk about the ADC role that much and I'd like to see your guys' perspective on it. It would be really cool if you could get Bizyze Coaching on stream and have a real conversation specifically about the role in Solo queue, without a support duo. It feels like this role is very hard to climb on because you are so team reliant, and how do you navigate that and get the most amount of agency as you can on marksmen specifically

[@Firerider1001]

I'm here for this as well, would be incredible to have you guys give insight into the role

[@JamesBaleLA]

Bizyze is great - he coached me from silver to emerald. He’s an incredible communicator and teacher of the game and I’d love to see this as well. He’s an all around great person as well.

[@madchal]

farm good, don't die, be in the right spot more than the other guy, gain LP. If you just stay bot and farm and get 10 cspm, u lose and cry.

[@Tismatic]

@23:40 The pressure to explain to your duo partner is like a guaranteed recipe for generating narratives because you are quite literally needing to create a story about what happened to relay the info. Almost impossible to avoid narrative generation at that point.

[@lewyn9609]

What ever happened to “and AWAAYYYY we GOOOooo.!!!”

[@caseyv8950]

DuoQ has on key up side, you can block ffs at 15. As an Asol player I cannot overstate how many early forfeit attempts have resulted in wins by forcing the rest of the team to continue playing with my duo

[@emprahsfinest7092]

Enjoy me soft inting :)

[@jonathanwynne6925]

​@@emprahsfinest7092easy report, it is what it is, never ff

[@Bobby_Boozer]

Asol players are the worst. They int the whole game and then refuse to surrender in hopes of their champ magically giving them the win later

[@zat1245]

@@emprahsfinest7092I’ll just carry

[@Finalslashes]

@@emprahsfinest7092what does that mean

[@bryanglover757]

32:35 we call that yappin, curtis

[@glenndiddy]

For the first time in 10 years I hit gold this season! The problem is I've not been below plat or emerald since season 3. I climbed my way down there with a 30% winrate and all I can say is, I must have fucked something up big time. I'm recovering now and I'm back up to emerald, but damn that was humbling as fuck

[@UberAffe1]

I need to record some games with my duo and send them in. The duo here was not taking the game seriously at all. We duo bot and our conversations are about wave state, back timing, jungle position, ability use/misuse. My duo supps and when he roams our discussion is about jungle position, if i see enemy supp leave, if i need him to rotate back to hold the turret, etc. I hit gold for the first time this season because of this. "UberAffe#NA" Duo *can* be used to improve, but both people have to actually be focused on improving and will to call eachother on their bad/lack of decision.

[@Roygasm]

Well the issue is that they did say they were taking the games seriously.

[@dumpsterplayer2700]

I think you guys went too much into the misplaying of champ, to me the more important thing was the communication, the alleged advantage of duo queue. there wasn't anything that sounded like planning, like "push for lvl 2", "i'm backing go roam" or trying to combine their attack at the same time, like a soraka E into jinx roots or stuff like that. I still think that duo(bot) can be useful if thats what your communication is, but if its like aaah that hit me and one person doing all the shotcalling then its not

[@petormaculan5424]

Later on they talked about it but I agree

[@Yutani_Crayven]

Part of it is to show that instead of both getting to a higher rank than they'd get to individually, they're both individually making mistakes that drag their partner down by making the game state worse for them and the rest of the team.

[@LilDeerLillia]

Using these players as an example of the flaws of duo queue feels like a bad faith argument. A player who effectively started playing league through Yuumi is always going to struggle to understand their role, that problem won’t just disappear if they soloqueue. Both players blaming their jungler before even 10 minutes into the game, as well as playing distracted and immediately failing to take accountability for it, indicates that neither of them are taking your content very seriously or trying to apply it to their own gameplay. The whole argument at 23:25 is just confusing to me. Why would someone serious about improvement ever duo with someone that they couldn't be honest or vulnerable with? If someone can't say "I don't know" to a friend, why should one assuming they're going to be able to say that to themselves? One could easily flip the argument and say that blaming randoms or making excuses is a "soloqueue-specific" problem because when you duo you have someone else to cut you off when you're starting to spew BS. I think what Coach Curtis says at 33:51 is really important to keep in mind; almost nothing in this game is influenced by the fact that these players have voice comms with each other. These players are not a serious duo, they’re effectively just playing solo queue together. Improvement is individual - duo queue isn’t a shortcut. You can’t hide poor game knowledge and mechanics behind “voice comms” or “synergy” etc. But just because duo queue isn’t magically going to make one improve faster than they would in solo queue doesn’t mean its bad for improvement. If both players are serious about improvement (not just offloading responsibility, but doing the individual work, reviewing their games, taking accountability and thinking about their individual contribution to the game) and take the time to learn about effective communication and the needs/expectations of the OTHER player’s role, then there’s no reason that their league improvement journey can’t or shouldn’t be a social, shared experience. I don’t think these standards are especially stringent. There are any number of defense mechanisms that can be triggered by learning a difficult game like League - tilt, blame, avoidance, shutting-down, deflecting, etc. - and a player who has developed a resilience to most of them, and is genuinely curious and excited about the game, is going to meet the above standards easily. A player who hasn’t, and isn’t, is going to struggle to learn even in soloqueue.

[@CoachSorest]

First of all it's very tough to find someone perfectly aligned with how serious you take the game. Secondly, even if you do, someone will always hold the other player down, it's just not realistic for both of you to improve at the exact same pace. Also, perhaps more importantly, it adds another layer of complexity to the learning process. Who's learning cycle are you completing? Everytime it's not your own is a time not useful for you. There are also a lot of added variables of distraction that comes with it. Even if you could theorize a perfect scenario where it can work well, practically speaking it's just not the case. This was something I realised early on, playing with friends = "for fun", grinding soloQ = improve MY gameplay, and it showed, I skyrocketed in rank while my duoing friends ended up being casual players.

[@thestoebz]

Duo Queue is 100% a shortcut. These guys are the “worst” example, but it doesn’t change the fact that duo queue is really not good if you want to learn and improve.

[@Yutani_Crayven]

Plenty of people play Yuumi and don't understand the game. And damn near everyone will blame the jungler and everyone else but themselves. What's more, the interactions that we see in this video are incredibly commonplace between premades. It's these types of in-group out-group dynamics that everyone who's been a third wheel (random) in a team with premades in it recognizes: blaming people outside of the group, looking past the mistakes of the members of your own group, making excuses for each other, and re-affirming each other in the bad narratives that you create. TLDR: Far from being a bad faith example, they're incredible emblematic and a textbook example of why DuoQ is not optimal for competitive gameplay.

[@Yutani_Crayven]

Moreover, if you start to criticize friends then your friends will want to stop playing with you, saying that they'd expect to get shit on by others but not by their own friends. That is unless you've both made it clear that you're both queuing in order to do just that (scrutinize each other to improve faster). People generally play with friends to have more fun, not less. So you don't find that kind of mindset very often.

[@albertjonas5675]

I think they got the bot strategy down: blaming the jungler for not doing what they imagine he should and then making a horrible play.

[@thestoebz]

I was Master/GM last split. Fell to D2 90 LP right at end of split. I played the same role this split, but ended up going something like 3 wins 24 losses. Fell all the way to low E4. I don’t usually get too bothered with my rank or anything, but seeing my fucking 16% winrate pissed me off. My will to play kind of died. I too went from playing with Spica, Doublelift, Busio, FakeGod, etc., and fell to playing with what I perceived as “trash” players. I would get flamed for my winrate in game by my team, and this would get me feeling like I wanted to lose. I couldn’t focus, so I started playing random champions and roles. I took a 2 month break, leaving my account for a couple smurfs. Decided a few weeks ago I wasn’t going to let my ego get the best of me. Stuck with JG 1 champ, and started climbing. Took my account from E4 14% winrate to D3 53% winrate. When I dropped my ego and stopped caring about wins or losses, I could focus on playing my best. Honestly, shoutout to perryjg for his videos. Helped me a fucking ton. I am now playing shorter blocks and focusing on staying locked in and playing my best. And of course, BBC really helped me with my mindset.

[@Brightside187]

Watching this has made me realize that I, as an ADC main, pretend I am duo’ing without even realizing it. I can see myself blaming my support for not going in. Rather than that, I should respect they dont want to go in. Even if it costs me a kill, I’ll at least be alive to push out the wave, get a good reset, and follow up my jungler.

[@butterflyfx57]

It astounds me how much the Soraka in the review isn't living up to the potential of his champ. A good Soraka can turn the farming difficulty from beginner to expert for the enemy ADC and can completely warp the game around her. You win bot by harassing the enemy ADC like the lane bully you are, then win mid by roaming just to give them good resets with your waveclear and healing, and you can win top through roams and your ulti. I feel like a good Soraka can lead to the classic situation where the enemy team asks themselves "how the fuck did we lose this?" and step one is improving that ability usage and knowing where to be on the map.

[@sugarfree9921]

True, until one smartass on the enemy team (usually an assasin) focuses only you, while your team is chasing their tank and then yell at you that you're not healing them enough...

[@Kamishi845]

This was me in ARAM yesterday with Soraka. I think Soraka has a bad rep because she was one of the first champions to be released and because her kit was primarily based on healing it got very meme'd on, and it just never went away. Soraka has been a solid support pick for years, especially after her rework, and has a deceptively high skill ceiling because people think it's enough to just press R to win games. It's a similar story such as with Janna, where the floor is low but the ceiling is much higher than what you think it is.

[@butterflyfx57]

@@Kamishi845 Yeah, Janna is so hard. When I used to main support I tried her and realized I did not have what it takes to play her.

[@jahcode6132]

damn this kinda makes me wanna main Soraka sounds like an Alpha chad champ disguised as a passive healer haha

[@eebbaa5560]

looks like they DOUBLED down! 😂

[@Ranked_Journey]

I just to be a jungle main (peaked gold in season 11 (I believe) climbing from bronze with an 80% winrate on Nocturne (OP broken I believe)), then I slowly transitioned from jungle to playing top lane, playing mostly Garen (now my highest mastery champion by far). And honestly I feel pretty happy, I have an extremely straightforward path to the enemy nexus through side laning, through setting up baron, pressuring side, taking towers if they don't respond. It's so nice. I always feel like I know what I am suppose to do, or at least something that's a good play 90% of the time. As jungle I felt quite pressured, and also overwhelmed by all the negative freedom. I would also resort to just split pushing (even if I didn't really understand it), on a champ like Nocturne because he hits towers good and can rotate to fights so quickly. I don't feel like I had a concrete identity before maining jungle. Like I spent some time playing Support and ADC (a lot of Ashe) in my first season (the only role I haven't spent time maining in ranked is mid (and even then I did have a Yasuo period where I would play mid, and in unranked I have always enjoyed trying out diffrent roles and champions (often bleeds too much into ranked, even tried being a "fill" player for a few weeks, didn't feel great).

[@vondoplays1630]

Been watching since the episodes were on curtis’ channel, last episode was best work yet! Keep it up boys.

[@Hail_Fire]

I think there is one counter to the muscle memory argument which is when a player deems a game not worth them trying. I know when I had my big 800 lp fall (I have since recovered all 800) I can say a lot of losses probably were not because I couldn't muscle memory win them. It was that I felt like it wasn't worth my effort to carry the game because of things such as toxicity in the team leading to say one player quitting or maybe selling their items. It's really tough when you see things like this to tell yourself to try to give your all to win that game. The problem is that sometimes a player begins to over use this mindset and then they get stuck into it. that sounds like what that player is describing, where they are judging the players on their team rather than do anything to help them.

[@ranolol]

DIdn't watch much but I just wanted to give my piece when it comes to duoQ as a Botlaner. FIrst of all, I believe that duoing with the same player bot helps build some level of synergy and understanding of your lane partner that is partially replicable in soloQ. It also allows you to learn some other trading patterns and to synchronize better overall. The downside is the lack of diversity in 1, both your champ pools and the way you approach the game. So what I will always advice is to do 50/50. Half soloQ and half duo with the same person. I do believe that in the end duoing makes you a slightly better player as you learn the game alongside another but people grow at different paces which leads to your duo and yourself breaking off after a while. Perosnally would not have been the player I am if not for 2 people I have in mind.

[@gregoryzelevinsky9837]

I think that the motivational aspect of playing people is worth a lot - if playing duo motivates you to play the game, you may play 20 games with your duo where otherwise you would only play 5 games solo due to lack of motivation. Even if you're learning less per game, I'd argue you learn more overall, and enjoy the game more

[@pseudophi]

When me and my friend were playing OG WoW 2v2 Arena, trying to become highest rated on our server, it was never about blaming each other. It was about outplaying and dominating the enemy duo. If one of us, or both, get outplayed, then we get outplayed. That's it that's all it was. Play better next time, utilize our game strategy and communication, outplay them. If your friend misplayed, who cares? That's on him to deal with, not you. You focus on yourself, and if you're cut out for it, you win. This Jinx Soraka duo; Jinx goes AFK and talks to his kid, gets run down by enemy bot sup while playing really bad, then immediately throws out "I thought you were gonna heal"...? XD This is insane, if Soraka was completely unhinged, his reply should be "I thought you weren't gonna run it down while talking to someone offscreen": how is this Sorakas problem? It isn't, but his duo made it so. That's completely obscene. Duo play is much better (in many different ways) if you are both, 1. Better at the game, and 2. Concerned with yourselves, not your duo. This thing is the exact same problem as people who abuse pings. I simply will not tolerate pings blaming teammates or pings ontop of me unless they are legitimate danger pings or. People are way too fixated on their teammates and overly careless about themselves and their own gameplay. You cannot control your teammates; nothing prevents me or any other player from flashing over your own wall and pressing recall for no reason at all, so when you play, why should you expect your teammate not to do that? Perhaps, at a higher level, this is more reliable, but in general, I think just focusing on you, and solely you, and playing everything to the best of your ability, will always prevail over playing around teammate expectations. For instance, for this Jinx, even if it was true that Soraka Heal would have saved him; why is he in a situation that hinges on that exactly, when this element is entirely out of his control? It's not like Soraka put him in that situation either; he did so entirely himself while AFK in game. I don't know. Anyway, incredibly sad to see. Disrespectful to their teammates, to themselves, and to any game there is. Do you think any player at a professional level says team gap after losing games? Imagine if someone like Messi goes "team gap" after every game instead of perfecting his own gameplay. It's literally the same thing.

[@yggreuyri5822]

Premades completely ruin the experience in soloQ. They would permaplay for their duo instead of doing the objectively correct play in the map due to fear of upsetting their duo. It's a good thing that they're completely removed from high elo and I would wager 300% that the ranked experience in League would improve if Riot completely removed the ability to duo/premade in both rank and normals

[@sugarfree9921]

It's particularly lovely when you get a duo where one of them is your rank while the other is one division lower and they have to play a solo lane into someone objectively better. The amount of games I had where a plat 3 had to play into an e3 e2 and completely threw it is insane. Then you have to spend half the match compensating for that.

[@zemptai]

Wtf? Why would you suggest normals too? If you wanted to prioritize game quality you’d play ranked, if you want to coordinate with friends, you play either flex or normals. What your suggesting would be like substituting all protein in your diet with 1 specific meat, which might work for some, but will alienate casuals and social players.

[@yggreuyri5822]

@@zemptai And people like you are the reason why the game is dying. 1. You cannot practice in normals because you will 100% be dealing with premades which never make for a good soloQ experience. Normals is a place for practice, not for socialization. If you want socialization, alt+f4, call your friends, and touch grass 2. If you play purely ranked, people will have no choice but to take in people that play champions for the first time, immediately play ranked post-30 as a new player, etc. Why? Because of the buzzword statement "ranked games provide better game quality so it's ok if both ranked low elo brackets (which have 99% of the playerbase) plus the only practice gamemode are complete wastes of time"

[@zemptai]

@@yggreuyri5822 bro, socializing and playing with friends is actually what 1/3rd+ of the player base does. I play hella ranked, but if they made the changes you proposed TO NORMS, they’ll gunna alienate a good portion of the playerbase, and many would quit, because it’s not their passion. Get a grip. Ranked is for practice, because people care more about a game with stakes behind it.

[@zemptai]

If you tank your elo experimenting in ranked, when you lock in, you’ll earn it all back, and then some.

[@zoiebee]

Agree!! Here's some thoughts I've had while listening that haven't been mentioned and I think are massive and interestinf factors that support your points: 1: I don't play ranked duo, but I have duoed in normals with a particular friend for a long time. I also play these as if i would ranked, I focus a lot and try my best and improve as I just truly enjoy that process and love the art of playing the game. I notice a MASSIVE internal and external difference between when I play with them vs by myself. The best way to describe it is that it truly feels like a part of my brain has switched off. Some things i feel are most affected: I'm not thinking about my enemy laners ability usage, and my own, I find myself throwing stuff out way more often, and not thinking about theirs, getting me in situations I should be be in ie. wasting an ability/predicting someone else's ability that would have saved me from dying. Positioning sucks a lot more too. I find myself noticing in the game that I'm slacking and being irritated by that, but no matter how much I try to 'lock in' my duo is taking up a space in my brain that I would have used for that stuff if I was by myself, it doesn't matter whether I'm aware or not. Tracking my jungle, tracking their jungle, even sometimes noticing that my jungle is IN MY LANE ganking right now, is all hindered by just the existence of this other person, even if we aren't talking. This is all, by the way, with very minimal talking about unrelated to the game topics. 2: Communication, while people may argue that its better with a duo, is heavily heavily hindered amongst you and your team. A massive factor is that when you are on comms, you are anticipating audio cues, ie. speech into your ears from another person, which, I believe and have experienced, HUGELY affects your ability to notice, interpret, and act on pings from your teammates. I just won't hear them, or my duo won't hear them, because our brains are more focused on anticipating and listening to audio cues of voice rather than the ping sounds. if we do notice them, the fast paced notice to processing system required for 'some good league o' legends' is heavily slowed and delayed, resulting in slow reaction timings and unnecessary deaths/mistakes/losses. 3. A massive part of improvement is noticing IN GAME that there was something wrong there e.gm something didn't feel right/ unsure of what went wrong with a team fight etc. With a duo, these thoughts don't occur so much, since a conversation or audio cues can distract that process from happening. Further, POST GAME, it will be way harder to identify 'hmm what was I thinking here' when you see yourself fuck up in a VOD, because the truth is you weren't thinking because you had a duo and everything I've mentioned above going on, meaning while the learning process isn't completely absent, having a duo MASSIVELY messies the water when you're trying to identify and address mistakes and problems in your gameplay that are ACTUALLY problems, or were just stuff due to the issues of having a duo. This ultimately means focus will be assigned to the wrong places, and it will take longer to improve since you aren't actually addressing problems with your gameplay. Duo is sick, just pick a focus. If you wanna have fun and duo do it, who cares about optimal improvement if your ultimate goal is fun?? if your ultimate goal is improvement, duo on the weekends in norms or flex, and solo Q for learning. Doing either or is YOUR perogative, and no one is telling you to live your life a way you don't want to :3 ggwp

[@emtech7457]

i believe the problem with duo q is that either one of the duo wants to make a mistake or do something he could get flamed for, so as a result you dont play as you would normally. Trying to get into that flow state u perform best in league can be harder when your trying to have a conversation with the guy your playing with, from my experience at least

[@VelKato]

Love you guys cant wait to watch!

[@Pyrrha_Nikos]

I was an enchanter support main back in s7 to s9 and I already want to cry after Soraka's first q. Sitting outside of the wave vs Zac, misses the q and gets outraded because she doesn't dodge Zac q, gives Varus push when his support shouldn't even be allowed to touch the wave at lvl 1. Soraka being one of the strongest lvl 1 supports in the entire game is losing push vs Zac that's useless until like lvl 5. If you don't even auto the wave to get lvl 2 first, why even play a ranged support???

[@peyches00majickmanshin2]

That's a really good point. Duo Q allows you to know where you land as a duo. Just like how professional teams don't necessarily care about how their individuals shake out if as a team they are much much greater. This podcast puts a lot of value in individual skill but being the best at league of legends requires a team greater than the individual. You still need improve as an individual player but improving as a team is probably more important and you can't do that in solo meanwhile you can do both as a duo or team.

[@haroldpham6693]

Yes. Duo Q allows you to know where you land as a duo. Which means individually the support might be plat and the adc might be diamond but together, they are emerald, and vice versa.

[@dr_dmg]

Starcraft 2 has a system where every 2v2 player pairing has a separate mmr and placements, so if you play 20 games with someone and reach a certain rank/mmr, when you queue with a different friend you need to do placements again. And SC2 does this with 1v1 and 2v2 being completely separate queues, with Solo/Duo combined in League it's even more necessary. This should be the industry standard for all competitive games with duo pairings. I've been saying for years that Riot should implement this in League (and Psyonix in Rocket League). There can still be the same 1 solo/due queue, but just the mmr calculation whould be per team/solo player and not some average calculation based on solo mmr only. The initial starting point from which you do placements can still be your average mmr, so you don't have 2 master players starting at silver/gold for placements, but internally the mmr should be kept separate for each pairing after being adjusted for variance with enough games. So you could be solo Gold, Plat with a friend, and Silver with another friend all at the same time in a season. And every rank would be independent and not "polluted" by mixing solo/duo games, especially if having different duo partners throughout the season. This system has other benefits besides solo rank clarity as well, such as better matchmaking with less variance and a higher chance of closer games, a lesser need for alt accounts and having a joint sense of achievement for climbing with a specific friend because the rank is isolated.

[@jacksonmagas9698]

I think the best way to improve might actually be to duo without voice comms then review the game together after. Basically play the game and make all decisions yourself then talk to the other person after the game so you can have more insight on the review, both how your decisions affected them and just another perspective and knowledge that can be shared.

[@Ranked_Journey]

I think junglers can benefit from having a consistent win condition to play around, like if they duo with a top, mid, or ADC main who plays carries. I'd imagine that many people who like to play facilitators could benefit from duoing with a carry player if they don't want to play a carry themselves. Although, I can see it making you a less well rounded player overall if you don't have to identify and play around a changing win condition.

[@000azeva]

john f kennedy gap

[@JamesBaleLA]

Lmao 😂

[@jeremyturner6815]

Bro didn’t buy ga

[@Hail_Fire]

I feel like if you try to use Soraka E to cancel the Zac E then you risk if you were late in the timing you can now no longer cast E under the location where Zac is using his E towards. I think that this is like trying to use Cassiopeia W before a target dashes, when if you hold it you can use it where a target has dashed instead. By placing the Spell after they arrive you get to make sure the target can't easily exit the area

[@Charuid]

Yeah, better not try at all and just let him engage each time :D Also, if you are that late, you're probably standing way too far back.

[@Hail_Fire]

@@Charuid I mean if you want to get technical on this, Soraka E is not an instant ability, it has a 0.25 second cast time, and Zac is a champion who typically is engaging from an area where your team potentially lacks vision so in the case that Soraka wants to be able to interrupt his E cast she first must get vision of him when he is casting. In the time that Soraka is moving forwards to place the vision needed to do this it is now on the Zac to begin the dash onto her before she can get the E silence off, and this is not nearly as hard as it sound. I'll be honest though, I really don't really feel like having to go anymore into detail than this because so far I just see that my initial comment where I provided a similar case example with clear reasoning behind it, this was misconstruded and strawmanned under an argument that "If you are late, then you must be too far back" I just don't have the time for it really.

[@Kamishi845]

@@Hail_Fire I see what you're saying and I think in some cases it's correct, but if we look at how it was played out in the video example, Soraka especially during the first Zac engage, had ample opportunity to E him and prevent all that damage from happening.

[@Leonjrxx]

I've duo'd probably 5k+ games with the same person. He gets to Master/Challenger in solo, but when we duo we dont really get higher than low/mid diamond. I am an Emerald/Diamond player

[@jasoncookie5456]

One thing missed here is an inefficient learning method you can sustain will outpreform an efficient learning method you cant sustain

[@FpsDropkick]

The first problem here is not all duos play bot lanes I think a better case study would have been duos that play in different lanes…

[@evandroescutatrap131]

In the first vod it's funny cuz they play ranked duo the way I play normals duo. Even then, might be because I'm kinda always "tryharding", I'm communicating almost every single thing I will/want to do. That can't be how they play duo ranked, that must be some end of the day game...

[@iamaliability1954]

The DrDisrespect quote didn't age well

[@Yutani_Crayven]

00:16:54 It's a Yuumi / Soraka / Nami main. In line with expectations.

[@youfoundbrooks]

The "Dr. Disrespect our lord and savior" did not age well 😂

[@bryanglover757]

2 Goats and a camera

[@DemoniumSama]

It's funny because I have currently 1 account in masters and 1 account in emerald (among others) and I am stucked in masters but that's not bad cuz I never wanted to get any higher anymore so just staying there is good enough for me, but I really want to make the emerald account masters aswell since that is my main, but I really can't, and all the things you talked about in the "Breaking Down Client Narratives" part lowkey help me. It's legit like I'm a different person when I'm playing in my main because I have all those narratives in my mind and I handicap myself. The whole discord message in 52:13 represents me when I'm playing in the emerald (main) account but not when I'm playing in the masters smurf account. I mean I'm not delusional so I accept the reality about me not climbing cuz I'm playing like shit, but it feels so bad and weird how In a 1klp higher account I can perform but then I play vs people who are clearly worse and I lose most games myself because I have a mental issue. I mean my conclusion is that I should stop thinking about winning and go back to the flow-state in which I was when I climbed to masters; go back to thinking about what I have to do in the game and play the game as good as I can rather than thinking about getting as much lp as fast as possible and how people suck and I'm clearly better and other narratives. PS: And to be fair that even happens when I play flexq by myself; I am stucked silver 3 flexq and tbh it's not like I care cuz I only play flexq to farm ranked points for the rewards, but I legit can't win and it's because I'm slef sabotaging me non stop and when I check my vods in masters vs emerald vs flexq it's legit like it's 3 different players not me. It's legit like watching a platinum player in emerald, a bronzer player in flexq silver and a master player in masters, and somehow that is possible and it's all a mentality issue that leads to awful gameplay.

[@abraces9664]

so i duo with my friend that i tought the game and i made sure when he said oh thats his fault ect i said no you or me did something wrong in some way. maybe we didnt look at map before didnt time cds ect but i made sure to teach him the game in a way that we allways take acountabilty for our choices

[@asdasdasd-y1u]

Playing To Win vs Waiting For Mistakes 01:24:00

[@anniecoisas]

1:15:15 loved that rp, amazing!

[@noname1247]

Does this mean team-wide voice-chat will never be implemented in ranked because it'd just be the blind leading the blind?

[@skelet8337]

I play with my brother regularly as duo we barely can stay in plat goin on huge lose and win streaks and you may say i am delusional but when we duo everytime we have at most 1 other player that isnt losing than when we are solo we played solo recently and we both climbed to emerald.

[@cmangrum1]

Who is Raoul? Dude from the first viewer submission said he played them support?

[@noname1247]

1:16:56 good point but can't this type of thinking occur in a duoq?

[@Static27o]

Hey guys I used duo queue to get to masters and I found that it really helped improve my gameplay.

[@Charuid]

Can you get to masters solo on a fresh acc?

[@andrewpitts4658]

I really like your guy's philosophy and process I feel like I could learn a lot from a coaching. Do you guys do anything for top lane? I'm an emerald 2 top lane illaoi main trying to get to diamond but I've never been able to hit it. Would it be helpful to join the program or do you guys know someone who specializes in toplane?

[@Tismatic]

Would also like to know about top lane resources. All i got for now is AloisNL's content but it feels like more plat and under content...

[@PineappleMD]

League is a game of call and response, but to win you do *have* to call.

[@GunzShufle]

Hi Nathan and Curtis. I have to once again disagree that duo is hinderance. It's true that it adds an extra aspect you have to learn on top, and that you still have to make an individual effort to improve your own play, and I don't think a duo necessarily helps you improve individually. That said, it can be so fun embarking on a journey like the league ladder together. The added motivation, excitement, and challenge in the end makes it all worth it imo. Just because it's harder does not mean that it is worse. Me and my duo recently hit master mmr and I have to say finding out that we can't climb together anymore absolutely killed the game for me. I don't play league just for league,. The experience is just so much more engaging and rewarding when done with a friend. I just hate the thought of going at it alone and having no one to share those special in game moments with.

[@Ranked_Journey]

Aren't carries champions who deal damage rather than tanks and enchanters?

[@bryanglover757]

1:15:00 loved this part

[@dazered59]

I think duo Que is critically important for a league player's journey. If they don't pay for coaching. I have never improved faster in solo q than after playing games with a duo partner. Duo Q doe change how you play the game, especially for junglers (me). Either with better communication or because you naturally gank more for your partner. If you win more with that person you need to ask yourself why that is. Are they making calls you don't notice yourself? Ask yourself why you aren't making those calls. If your duo is the same rank qs the other players you play with they should not be any more skilled. So if you are winning more there is a real reason why and you can bring that why to solo Q. For example, I enjoy playing tank junglers with lots of peel. My duo is an adc and I noticed that we win a lot more fight than when I play solo. What I think the boys worry about players thinking and what most duo partners do in fact do is saying "this is my duo adc. They're just better at hands diffing my random adcs." I did not accept that as an answer. I rewatched the VODs over and over to figure out why we would win more. What I realized is I pay way more attention to my duo's positioning in fights so I peel and front line for them far better than I do for any solo q carry. After that I started playing around my solo q partners more and started winning more fights. This is the power of Duo queing. It provides a controlled variable that impacts your play. If you play consistently or you play mostly the same every game adding a duo partner changes the way you play in a way you can notice and break down. Are you playing better? Look at how the duo variable is changing your play and bring that to solo q. Duo q is a tool in your toolbox for improvement and should not be ignored. It is a very tricky tool to use though and you have to learn how best to utilize it.

[@kkdj20]

You missed the entire point of the video.

[@dazered59]

@@kkdj20 and what's that? That players that only duo queue are worse off than players that only solo queue? No I did not. I'm highlighting the importance of Duo queue as a tool for betterment of solo queue performance.

[@kkdj20]

@@dazered59 Duo queue isn't important as a tool for getting better at solo Q. It's detrimental much more often than not. Solo Q success is easily found without ever playing duo queue. You failed to comprehend the lesson of the video and continue to blindly assert your opinion instead.

[@Mikkovlog]

I have a question. Im d2 right now. Was d1 peak in 2020 stopped for 3 years and after that I got d2 back even if I play duoQ mostly. Do you think soloq rangs got worse over the years? I play on EUW and I feel like my D1 in 2020 is like low Master in 2024. I don't even super tryhard those games and I am not focusing really hard to improve. But getting the feeling for the game and fixing some mistakes feels like enough. Im support main and I can easily get top 4 on opgg score most of my games. (I know opgg score says nothing, but if on average I get good score there it feels like I'm doing something above my level)

[@Mikkovlog]

And about duoq as support adc. I have one thing to say from experience. It is the worst duoq to climb and improve. It is only good if you want to build synergy with your adc and limit test. Best duo partners for support are junglers and midlaners

[@Mikkovlog]

And for beginners. I completly agree. Support is the reason why you win botlane or lose botlane 90% of the time. If you want to climb, I suggest taking last picks as often as possible and try to counter enemy team with your support, not only botlane. I solo won the game because I picked braum and I was the only one that could stop fed Master Yi

[@p-go.fidcgvjhbkloo-wo7nv]

master 0 lp is the d2 of s12 as reference.

[@karenwang313]

Let's be real, low elo is a complete different game. A bronze jungler isn't going to help push the wave when you ping them, they're instead going to go for a blind invade with zero prio, die and then get upset that nobody helped them.

[@NkenKenY]

when i go duo i got blitz and alistair bot lane :) super fun

[@misterbxiv]

All I need to see to know the soraka is bad is to see her not auto a single minion at level 1 and give up level 2 vs a melee support.

[@crispyquesadilla]

Why is your camera constantly zooming in and out slightly!!??

[@pascaltomasovic3586]

My first season: gold, second season: gold, third season: hardstuck in plat until i duo queued with a friend and we rushed to diamond together. in only a few weeks. Me readin the video title: ????????? (this was before emerald was introduced)

[@kaelen9906]

just remove duoq from soloq. if they want to duoq they can flex.

[@bryanglover757]

Great episode

[@EverestGaming99]

Motivation Monday!

[@ramsrinivasmurthy8843]

Hey quick question, in regards to the video talking about champion pool would you consider Diana mid fringe pick or is it more of an evergreen champ? Thanks for all the dope videos!

[@MIKAEL212345]

def on the fringe end of the scale

[@000azeva]

fringe

[@Landmeeuw]

Not being funny right, but what makes this not boosting? Just hearing their ranks it sounds like the adc is just carrying the support, and the support will thus learn very little to nothing at all

[@ryan_d.v]

Damn if that Soraka is emerald then the bar is wicked low

[@Rayonnant2753]

For both adc and support, you shouldn't duo with your buddies or random people you meet outside of the game, you should only duo with other ally bot laners you played with in your solo queue games. If you have a pop-off game, add and duo; if it's consistently working keep going otherwise just stop after a few games and maybe only invite them to norms from then on. This is especially the case with certain champion synergies that have clear obvious gameplans (Xayah/Rakan, Lucian/Nami, Draven/Leona). If you lose 3 in a row with bad performances there's no reason to continue duoing. It should be transactional with no emotions or hard feelings if you stop. You don't have to talk on voice either, the duo should be borne from gameplay and synergy alone and pinging should be enough.

[@felpulaley4534]

1:13:47 number one: has really low farm , number 2: plays electrocute + tp every game , dont know what to say about it

[@Katsuatis]

Yuumi players exposed hard

[@davidadrmd4636]

i got better at the game with a friend, playing ranked. he was higher elo, and I would never do those things he taught me alone, that made me win games. so the title of the video (I won't watch the video) is one of 2 things: a bait or just plain wrong.

[@the_armada5579]

Duoq is the only way to make sure you ta least have some chance every gamee. otherwise you will just straight up lose a lot of games from the instant 15 minutes ff

[@HAPYDUDE7]

This podcast is not about winning the maximum amount of games asap, it's about getting better at the game

[@indirectkey]

I love you guys! This podcast is life!

[@Vocalism123]

I know you guys were trying to be nice to the person sending in the VODs but honestly, looking just at the short clip from one of the games, it is absolutely shocking to see the delusion that the average league player has in terms of what constitutes productive improvement and how little of a process there actually is (even for people that think they have a process/are active listeners of your podcast). On the one hand this reaffirms my belief that most people are unwilling to look beyond what they think they know and on the other hand it makes me sad that there is not a bigger push in the community to encourage and educate people on these important topics in relation to league.

[@haroldpham6693]

Kudos to that Jinx, bro is mentally strong af or just a really nice guy because he's basically 1v2-ing that lane with a cosmetic Soraka like nah that guy is not paid enough for this XD Edited: HOLY SMOKES NOW THEY ARE FLAMING THE JUNGLER AFTER SHE BASICALLY SAVED THE LANE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAH

[@samifawcett4246]

why are u assessing the efficacy of duo learning capability by looking at a vod rather than watching them review that vod?

[@YoutubeAskedMeToChangeThis]

No point if this is how the soraka plays after 6 months, there was no learning done in that time period. Besides, you can duo vod review a soloq game without having to play with that person.

[@samifawcett4246]

@@KZbinAskedMeToChangeThis massive assumptions, just like what they do on the podcast. generalizations and assumptions is the reason why you sheep listen

[@YoutubeAskedMeToChangeThis]

@@samifawcett4246 Kappachungusmaximusgoldendeluxe

[@Diamura]

leaving comment for algorithm help

[@smappa849]

Hard agree with Cupcakes comment, even in the case the botlane duo is worth it, in my mind that would be when two players who already have a good solo queue process and are switched on and taking responsibility for their respective roles/job, that's when they could find success in duo queue. Even then, since you can't duo all the way up the ranks, it seems to defeat the purpose in even that situation where the stars otherwise align. At the end of the day, regardless of the role, you will eventually need to push up the ranks by yourself and the sooner you begin, the faster you get there. In that sense, riot limiting duo in the top ranks was a very healthy decision for the game. Thanks for the ep, cheers guys!

[@TheDarkendstar]

I disagree but not for say duo queue Ive never sat down and tried to improve at this game via vod reviews or anything like that. My experience to get to diamond where I am now almost entirely exists from two things just consuming league content from streamers 2 when I was new I met someone a friend who was diamond and almost every day for years to this day we play norms that instantly put me in way way way higher mmrs brackets where I was forced to learn how to play over time.

[@bounkk9147]

This is not a podcast this is a vod review. I can't watch this when doing dishes.

[@madchal]

Did not expect this to be the delusional carried support episode but I laughed the entire time. Boy, I love jungling. Fellow junglers, this is who your laners are. Just deafen and play your game.

[@GrugGaming]

I went from p4 to d2 because of you guys, gg.. when vanguard drops I'm gone but I'll keep improving till then

[@rff7354]

hey nathan mutt and coach cancer, thanks for telling me duo que isnt improvement i agree. What is improvement (keep in mind you are both emerald oce player).

[@skoodlemoose]

im a mid diamond player and i made a duo only account and hit masters with an 83% winrate, if duo was allowed in masters im positive i'd fly in to challenger as well. All duo does is give you someone reliable to play around and i think they should remove duo restriction in masters +

[@Antibiose.]

Where PanPan?

[@Speedb0at]

Justice for PanPan

[@prodromosx07]

Wrong place Anti 😂

[@Antibiose.]

@@prodromosx07 I'm everywhere

[@michaelle5722]

To improve = play solo. Which part of playing game is for fun? the fact that they drop master MMR duoQ to now match making make duoQ harder. Is this the case that you shouldn't have friends. Why play game with team but you can't even have a buddy to improve and have fun with. Sad modern life... Normal game don't have same match making anymore when u reach emerald now ur team fight with gold and silver mix all the time. Riot did took away the fun out of LOL for a while now.

[@sugarfree9921]

The fastest way to dissolve a duo is asking them why you did this? Why did you do that? In a nice way, not yelling and blaming. If you do this 2-3 times when you know that their decision led to a poor outcome, the duo is done,they will simply not want to duo with you anymore. It's actually a bit funny.

[@skoodlemoose]

For the record, i've improved way more and learned way more from duo q than i ever have from soloq, so yall are just wrong on this one

[@Charuid]

Or got boosted?

[@skoodlemoose]

@@Charuid nope, you can watch any of my duo streams, me and him are both mid diamond players in soloq but when we have someone reliable to work around we win way more. Soloq is good practice for solo q only, it does not make you better at league as a whole.

[@gemofhaste1872]

You guys are wrong about duo ing period yes it has hits ups and downs but you are failing to grasp that the only difference between solo &duo is having 3 random players rather than 4. having 1 person on your team you know their playstyle you an you know their strengths/weaknesses and they know yours its a strength soloQ will never have. I love you guys and yes the learning come from self improvement but duoing definitely helps with consistency especially if your both otp saying that duoQ is worse than soloQ is like saying that there is a difference between ranked and normals its the same exact game and you can learn the same way in both Qs

[@particle3257]

The only thing that would fix Solo Q is a complete reset of MMR across every single account, until that happens rank means nothing and doesn’t determine skill.

[@michaelgonsalves1116]

There is a big drawback to this. You will have high elo(Dia 2+) in lower elo games which will make the games complete 1 sided.

[@bl3320]

spoken like a true low elo player... im master and can turbo smurf through the ranks below me - the elo system places you where u can compete... youre just not capable of accepting that youre not good enough 🤷.... you know what would happen if the whole system was reset?? everyone would be back at their exact same rank in a few months... its ELO bro

[@particle3257]

@@michaelgonsalves1116 D2+ players wont be able to consistently 1v9 in low elo. And the whole point of the MMR reset is to make it so everyone starts fresh, a team being carried won’t break their account like it does right now.

[@michaelgonsalves1116]

@@particle3257 you on drugs or what? D2+ players would absolutely crush everyone in bronze-Emrald 3 at the bare minimum Grand Masters and challenger would have no trouble getting back.

[@Mymusicaldream]

@@particle3257I’m high emerald and have a 90% WR on my fun account up to silver II right now lol. Came from iron…

[@burritogod59]

First?

[@Aanenk]

supports pls never touch adc waves... PLEASE.

[@Charuid]

What elo are you?

[@Aanenk]

@@Charuid diamond adc

[@Charuid]

@@Aanenk Newly low diamond?

[@Aanenk]

@@Charuid wouldn't say newly, im in and out in 3 separate accounts lol and inly low diamond for the moment silly 😜

[@Charuid]

@@Aanenk Just pointing out that it makes sense since you aren't high elo but I would've expected you to be even lower because of your comment.

[@Aanenk]

ok sorry gotta get this out. DONT TOUCH MY FOOKIN WAVES BOTLANE!!! IDGAF what curtis is telling ur azz. I am beyond tilted if my supp tries to do anything with wave unless I ask because im the one who thinks about CS not supports. fk they can barely understand that they need to harrass adc when they go for cs. In DIAMOND BTW....

[@zat1245]

You do not get to control the lane. The support dictates it. Sync up with your support more. If they are hitting FUCKING SHOVE.

[@thestoebz]

I was Master/GM last split. Fell to D2 90 LP right at end of split. I played the same role, but ended up going something like 3 wins 24 losses. Fell all the way to low E4. I don’t usually get too bothered with my rank or anything, but seeing my fucking 16% winrate pissed me off. My will to play kind of died. I too went from playing with Spica, Doublelift, Busio, FakeGod, etc., and fell to playing with what I perceived as “trash” players. I would get flamed for my winrate in game by my team, and this would get me feeling like I wanted to lose. I couldn’t focus, so I started playing random champions and roles. I took a 2 month break, leaving my account for a couple smurfs. Decided a few weeks ago I wasn’t going to let my ego get the best of me. Stuck with JG 1 champ, and started climbing. Took my account from E4 14% winrate to D3 53% winrate. When I dropped my ego and stopped caring about wins or losses, I could focus on playing my best. Honestly, shoutout to perryjg for his videos. Helped me a fucking ton. I am now playing shorter blocks and focusing on staying locked in and playing my best.