"My Team Is Losing, Do I FF?" | Broken by Concept 214 League of Legends Podcast

[@PineappleMD]

The bit about attaching self worth to achievement and finding self love has finally let me close the book on a chapter of my life. I've recently come to this self-love mindset, and I used to be just like the guy you're describing. I quit League in 2016, and recently came back. For years, I talked about how toxic the League community was to me (still is) and people are worried because I started 'using' again. But I swear to them that this time is different. I no longer attach my rank/performance to my self-worth. I'm only Gold now, but I'm slowly working on my improvement. Besides League, I've got a full-time job and a loving partner. I'm not perfect, but League is an exercise in stoicism and improvement. Thank you guys, for giving me the answer to those who are questioning my decision to start again.

[@lewyn9609]

The mindset I’ve adopted from this podcast has genuinely gotten me to the gym and has TOTALLY changed my physical health. I owe you guys a massive thank you

[@Zebxddx]

How if i may ask? Like, what have they said that made you switch mindset and go to the gym? Im just asking no ill meaning

[@HanyuuHOLO]

@@Zebxddx They talk about gym like every next episode lol

[@Zebxddx]

@@HanyuuHOLO oh wow lol, i dont really watch em so didnt know that, thanks

[@lewyn9609]

​@@Zebxddx Yeah man, I can gladly answer that. To be honest it's hard for me to remember any exact specific things that motivated me into the gym. I think it was more a collection of their ideals over many episodes that motivated me. The biggest thing at first was them often talking about stage four issues and bringing up the gym specifically in previous podcasts. That really spoke to me because I already felt like I should be going but was very intimidated by the environment. I figured if they were sweaty league gamers like myself and they made it work then I could too. So I started adapting the same concepts for learning in league with learning in the gym. Things like; it's okay to be bad, take small learning at a time as a win, focus on what you can do in each situation to improve, we're human so we will have good days and bad days, etc etc. Also, I would often listen to the podcast in the gym when I was first starting off. It took some of the pain from working out away and helped me think about something else I enjoyed. Now I've grown to enjoy that aspect but it was very hard at first. I think just generally taking a learning first mindset has helped me in a good portion of my activities recently and BBC really brought that mindset front and center for me, funny enough. The only downside is that I have a lot less time for actual league these days 😅

[@Zebxddx]

@@lewyn9609 awesome thanks for the answer! Great stuff man! But that last part is that really a bad thing? 😅😂 -A league player that doesnt really like to play too much 😂

[@garagavia]

Guys, we're on episode 214,it's time to fix your cam setup so it does not die every episode

[@zane_guitar]

it's just part of the charm at this point!

[@lewyn9609]

It’s probably their camera having a max recording limit. They’d have to buy a whole new camera. Tbh I don’t mind how it is

[@zane_guitar]

@@lewyn9609 Yeah exactly, that's what I've always assumed. I thought most people understood that but I was mistaken. It doesn't affect the overall quality of the podcast and they can keep using their perfectly workable camera

[@UnruHorizon]

Its not like the majority of veiwers are likely watching this tho. Podcasts are often on in the background and listened to. If it means they can put more money into their We will teach u league and everything else they are doing. it is a great trade off for me tbh

[@coolbrotherf127]

@@lewyn9609 It feels like they could just get a nice webcam and record directly to a computer with OBS or something instead of recording directly to a camera's memory. That would probably fix 90% of any errors.

[@wisdomandy9361]

My experience with teams wanting to FF has been 1/2 the time if you can get people to relax and wait for the other team to overcommit, you'll win.

[@podefunder]

Yeah I don't understand people who are like "yeah these games would never be winnable, I'd end up winning such a low % of them, waste of my time." How would they know that? They DON'T PLAY THOSE GAMES, they hit FF at the drop of a hat. In my experience as someone who very rarely FF's, people throw games all the way through Master tier. If they're throwing games at that elo, they're throwing games at your elo. Even the best pro teams find ways to throw games, which means, as long as you have a team of players actually trying to win, you CAN find a way back into almost any game. Not FF'ing simply will raise your winrate.

[@JmkLahdd]

Joey (skool post) here - thanks for your responses guys, pretty spot on in everything you said. The insecurity, achievement-stacking, following society's wants rather than my own. Beautiful advice - thank you.

[@JyeDaRos]

joey, i cant relate to your post any more, i feel 100 percent like you, you are not alone my brother

[@JmkLahdd]

@@JyeDaRos Thanks man, wishing you all the best

[@garagavia]

I don't ff Don't even think about it, it's not worth a thought I will go down fighting, I will make them earn it It's a habit to decline, I do it automatically They are fountain farming us, toying with us Let them enjoy themselves, let them have their fun I'm ready for when they get lazy, when they slip up I will strike with no mercy Their hubris is their downfall Fools worry about saving time, but time passes whether you save it or not How often do you get to practice your build against fed enemies? How often do you get to practice your mental, to practice not giving up Those "unwinnable" games are just free practice time Hard times bring out the worst in some, the best in others So let me ask, who are you? A quitter, someone who gives up when things get hard? Or a leader, who rises to the challenge? A captain who goes down with the ship? That little box with the choice "yes" or "no" It's asks you who you are

[@wisdomandy9361]

There's a hidden benefit of playing off meta picks. Players aren't sure what to think and assume you're trolling and make mistakes you can punish. This of course only applies if you understand how to play the pick within the bounds of the current overall meta. The reason most meta picks rise is because players find the niche ways to play the picks that work effectively but theres probably 100's of unknown "meta picks" that are unknown or under utilized.

[@SlyEssence]

"Experience is what you get, when you don't get what you want"

[@Noccyboy]

I wanted to post this in skool, but I know the subject matter isn’t necessarily appropriate, and can be inflammatory, so I’ll just keep it here. All things considered, I was a near carbon copy of Joey, gifted in so many ways, even all the other games I play I can reach top 1%, if not higher but league is the one game I play where I am stuck silver/gold- a true thorn in my side. I try to just move on, usually uninstalling for 3-18 months, but the thorn stays, and it is what drags me back into the fray every time. I might not be putting in the same 1300 games, but when I did come back to league i was invested, and after a month or two it fell back into this self hated rage queuing. Curtis is right in his assessment that you just need to love yourself, beyond your achievements, beyond your flaws; that is the only place improvement can really come from. Honestly though, in most cases telling someone to just love themselves is like telling an iron player to just get challenger, it’s this abstract idea that is so far away and seems near impossible. I’m an old man, I have spent nearly fifteen years trying to learn to love myself, grasping at straws to reach such a vague and obscure target. I spent a lot of time with the buddhists and other eastern philosophies, I spent a lot of time with self-help and motivational people, I even spent a lot of time with the crystal hippies who’s entire focus is “self love,” but honestly those types usually just equate to masked narcissists. Hell, I even tried to make myself into a narcissist because they at least look like they love themselves, but that too was unsuccessful, I still felt a void. Well, what even is love? At this point in my life, did i even know what love was? I loved my parents, i loved my wife, i loved my siblings and friends, surely i knew what love was, right? Well when my first child was born, and i held her in my arms, I felt love actually for the first time, and it made me realize that i hadn’t actually loved anybody before in my life, it was just my shallow understanding of what i thought was love. This opened up my capacity in life for real love, I was able to deepen all of my love and connections with the people in my life from before, and new people who came into my life, but having this deeper capacity for love actually meant that I was even further from my target of self-love that I had even previously thought, and that was daunting. I heard some sage advice from someone after this, telling me to view myself through the lens of my father, imagine being my father and holding my newborn self in my arms the same way I held my daughter, and I felt this spark of love for myself that brought me to tears, but lo and behold it was just a spark and no matter how much i chased it the flame never caught for long. I now had a tangible and obtainable target to aim at though. More time passed, more children fathered, not much progress, fear of the void crept back, maybe the fleeting spark of loving myself was all i was capable of, maybe i didn’t deserve it, i fell back into the achievement hunting validation, back to material focus, back to self hatred, but this time with parental guilt to pile on it. “I am worthless, so at the very least i can sacrifice myself to my family, put my nose to the grindstone of life until there is nothing left of me, but i will leave my kids with money and i can die from some stress induced disease.” In my darkest hour i found God, And his love is much like mine towards my daughters, but infinitely deeper and more understanding, truly compassionate and unconditional. It was this when I cast aside my atheism that I was finally able to understand what that void was in my heart, the void was me rejecting love from the source of all love, how could i love myself if i couldn’t even accept love from the source? Every single area of my life has improved since this powerful revelation, even dumb ol league of legends. That’s right, Christmax your LP gains boys. Lol

[@JmkLahdd]

Joey here. Woah, fascinating story, thanks for sharing. I understand exactly what you mean that self-love feels like an abstract concept and that grasping at it feels futile. I'm currently going down the path of exploring eastern philosophies and I think I've felt fleeting moments of that kind of love you express. My intellect is very stubborn and refuses to believe in the stories of traditional religions such as Christianity etc, but I really resonate with things like Taoism and the notion of God in Spinoza's sense for example. I'm glad you've found love and peace in your life - sounds like you've suffered a lot to get there.

[@Noccyboy]

@@JmkLahdd I know it was a total overshare, and I don’t actually like to go on big shpeals, but I couldn’t finish the video until I said something about my personal journey (even though it basically turned into my entire personal journey lol). I wasn’t trying to say you, Joey, specifically should go down any particular path, or even that Curtis’ assessment of you was accurate considering all of the assumptions he made, but after he mentioned “self love” it just sleeper cell triggered my activation hahaha. Hope you’re doing well brother.

[@stinker6784]

beautiful story man! i always love seeing people discovering their spiritual side in any form and benefiting from it so much

[@Akali_Amos]

How I've found self love if I could call it that was when I decided to stop beating myself up all the time and understand I could make small mistakes and that's alright. I learnt to focus on more what I could give in a social interaction and the funny phrase I came up with was "Be generous with your smiles." This made me feel better immensely as an understatement and I'm also blessed to have a family that I ressurected my relationship with. Focusing on having fun in a social situation is another one even if you don't get it perfect. A good quote I heard once was something along the lines of "People are dying to be talked to, flirted with and have fun together". Also bare in mind when you make a social faux pas people really aren't watching so it doesn't matter anyway! Also focusing on doing things I love and eating things I love even if it takes a little longer to get to the end goal helps as well! Hope this helps! ,😊

[@johannesisaksson7842]

You guys did a really fantastic job with Joey’s message and the mailbag, awesome stuff.

[@zane_guitar]

This was a particularly excellent episode! A really great theme of developing mental resilience through curiosity and introspection ran through the episode

[@xtrafunk]

I just had a team FF in an ARAM after losing a single teamfight but still being up on kills and even on towers. league players are something else.

[@Remaark9]

I believe the reason side laning has gotten so much stronger over the years is the increased value in turrets. Back in old seasons all turrets were of equal value in gold. Then they added plates, that is a bonus 125 gold x 5, then they made tier 2 turrets worth over 600 gold, then they decided it doesn't make sense inhibitor turrets give almost no gold compared to the tier 2 so they increased that value by a large amount. All of these factors heavily incentivize turret killing style champions and promotes in my opinion extremely unhealthy gameplay styles like the bausffs inting sion. (Also almost all of this gold is local, creating champion power levels that are way ahead of power curves) I'd be curious to hear Curtis and Nathan's thoughts on this.

[@younggod5230]

Fascinating fascinating. As an adc player, I have been forever aware of how important it is for midlaners to be able to get sidelane prio and be able to splitpush. Since the adc doesnt take tp, but still has to be able to join up with the team during midgame, they obviouely go midlane. Because of these circumstances, I never understood people who insisted on taking ignite over teleport. Ignite is better for 6-10 minutes, after which teleport is a massive game advantage. Whats worse than that tho, is some midlaners refusal to understand what their role is in relation to sidelane, and being able to draw solo pressure. The midlaners ability to do these things has large bearing on how the game will go. I would always rather have a corki or tristana in my team, who will pressure, and still be able to join up, than a xeratg who picked ignite as his summoner spell.

[@orestestza]

Banger episode! I agree that rift feels useless. The damage it deals is half a turret so if the enemy turret isn't already low then it is uttrerly useless because it doesn't give you an immidiate advantage. It is quite rare to be able to defend rift to take 2/3 turrets unless you ace the enemy team. Grubs are not crazy impactful either, but I think that if your team manages to get all 6 then it feels good as a sidelaner/splitpusher.

[@garagavia]

It's about the value of two camps, so some times it's efficient to take it. It does take some time, but it gives some tempo back by giving fast base. Not a high priority objective, more like an occasional farm source

[@hiimbonsai]

I like how your advice is never just about League.

[@jdogsful]

i dont ff if we're losing but the team is still competent, farming well and adjusting to the fact the we are losing. I know that even while losing, i can pop off at any moment and turn the tides. but if the team is just stupid as shit and not learning from mistakes, ill just ff.

[@calebswanson9046]

So many games are thrown by ff'ing early. In low elo you can force a good team fight and collect shutdowns or split push while your team shadows fed enemies and holds obj and towers.

[@orestestza]

Big throws even happen in diamond, that's why I never ff at 15. But if the kill score is like 20v5 and they have 3 dragons then it's ok for me to surr at 20-25. Sometimes there is no point in trying because it's time and energy wasted.

[@edgelord1337]

Curtis have you played on euw/kr? Whats your peak rank on those servers?

[@JunearkCinccino]

I feel like I remember him talking about bootcamping there? maybe was kr tho?

[@LJSheffRBLX]

Broken By Concept, amazing content keep up the awesome work

[@neil1337]

This topic comes up at a time that is very relevant to me.

[@magmatt7]

Hi Curtis, Nathan. Does this Korean mid game srat mean that champions like TF/Pantheon mid are realy strong if you play sides correctly? Another question is this make all controll mages basically very weak?

[@jons1278]

When you say "don't FF" it's about looking for opportunities to get back in the game and scrape any winning percentages you can. There's a lot of people who whine about not being given attention or being bailed out and will try to FF even if the rest of the team is doing well. So assuming you have to FF is at least as, probably more selfish than GENUINELY playing out the game. I don't mean "playing out the game" while checked out. I mean actually trying to win. You WILL win those games occasionally and flipping those lost games has TWICE the effect of closing out a won game.

[@noahpotratz6756]

Something I've noticed in my Low Elo Hell Climb after switching roles from support to jungle is a number of Top, Mid and ADC players who actively "blame" the jungler for not "impacting" their lane or having "low neutral control". I noticed this first as a support player but now more so since the switch. Why is there no information for lanners on how they impact their junglers games? An Exaple of Pro play where I've seen a lanner doing something similar to solo que is Bwipo overextending past turrets to proxy and screwing up the game plan that Inspired had on FLyquest leading to them losing the advantage Inspired had built.

[@everythingaboutsoda]

SUPER hyped about adc academny, what do you mean by "soon"?

[@zane_guitar]

It says November on their coaching site

[@PecoMid]

never FF

[@BobFudgee]

So I've learned to not care about LP via finding ways where I can still have fun while even losing. However the frusteration comes in from me having to put %300 effort in while having else around like %70 of the time won't even put %50 effort, which has bogged my psychie down to where now I have stopped caring all together when I care and they dont i get tilted and than the tilted lingers for days and builds into a ragequeue. For instance I got to Emerald 2 like 4 splits ago but got frusterated and rage Q'd all the way to Gold than quit came back and now it placed me into silver 2 with horrific mmr. Should i quit?

[@tristan6773]

depends. if you’re down 24-3 at 20 minutes and the enemy is taking everything and just got baron + triple inhib. sure

[@Alend222]

Coaches, to play side do you think you have to be good at diving enemy 1v1 to take the T2, it's so game winning but feels like "forcing plays"

[@osten432]

yes.

[@osten432]

jk keep fighting!

[@mr.nobody4994]

@@osten432why? Game is lost anyway.

[@TooKorky]

@@mr.nobody4994 Game is only 100% lost when you ff, if you dont no matter how small its winnable

[@AtZ-2424]

​@@mr.nobody4994 You clearly lack Spartan spirit, either come back with your shield or on it

[@garagavia]

I wish instead of having 5 different academies it was just one for all roles

[@Hail_Fire]

Lol in the middle is called a centrist

[@everything-has-a-handle-now]

How you guys tried deadlock?

[@mrmangbro6842]

I don't ever ff, from challenger to iron games are winnable. I had a game high masters / gm that had either someone dc or just throw multiple tines and we win from 8k down

[@Thomas-tf6gj]

1:20:50 a centrist

[@tristan6773]

29:40 there was 2x shelly.

[@countsaintgermain393]

so, what about the opposite situation that's ther eality of bad players like me? when one enemy is so fed and strong they will probaply win a 3v1, you get held hostage by your team and get flamed for splitpushing and trying to take turrets and objectives? regarding mid game "understanding". or worse, you're the weakest link in the team and fed. gonna be an annoying splitpushing fly then that needs swatting every 3 minutes. bad or good mental? About the rant on people not asking "why" - some like myself have given up on it due to being fucked by rng, bullshit item interactions and obvious smurfs that have a far deeper, accessable knowledge well. One champ i never understand is Sylas with animation cancels. It's like i'm halfway through a blink and i'm dead - and i am certain i dodged at least the q. Remember the "random BS - Go!" meme? that's my experience with faceroll champs and certain metas like tank and lethality - not understanding how an amumu kills me with just a sunfire and 2 snares. alone. and i'm an ad offtank. things like that, yknow? or anyone else here? thirdly, regarding the ff point at 1:16:18 mins. you're giving the people too much credit and believe in benevolence. reality for iron bronze silver baddies is they are butthurt bitches that'll deny every surrender to hold you hostage for the max ammount of time. And don't you dare trigger ritos leaver buster then, cause then you're toxic for not letting them waste your hours worth of time? free leave when anyone is 5/0 pls.

[@drjamaymay405]

It sounds like you have a terrible relationship with the game. Take a break, at least from ranked

[@jdogsful]

you say grubs and herald dont matter to you, but its matters when the enemy team has both grubs and herald.

[@colinbuhler3860]

Me as a toplaner be like "duh"

[@kouadio4231]

The "FF 15 people" when their is 2 or 3 - 0 won't go anywhere. Their is soooo much mistake in this game than I never FF before min 20 ; and/or when I see 0 wincondition. Typically we go 3 v1 on the best ennemy, and he 3 v 1 despite the fact that we played well the fight. In this case FF. Otherwise... saying FF before min 10 is a sign of a really poor mental which make you loose looot of game. Throwing a game in League is soooo common... FF too fast make you miss occasions of actually win. Finally, when in you're head this is FF, you'll play lower than your actual level. Because in your head what you do from the moment you say FF is pointless. And it lower the moral of your team too :D. So... never "FF 15" You can "FF 20" if really you tried an easy catch 1v3 and get destroyed for exemple. And last point btw : you always learn even when you get smacked :D. It allows you to test things and leatn ypur capability on a champ when you are way behind ; and that is always usefull ;)

[@xazarl3381]

This split push mentality is just a top lane mentality lol getting tier 2 towers make you rich.

[@diegolacerda2587]

I never ff, doesn't matter what

[@xXG3TPWNEDXx]

Amy should have sued for millions of dollars and get her position. Should have never taken any insight and only went scorched earth.

[@Thomas-tf6gj]

1:00:40 optimistic nihilism?

[@glenndiddy]

Baus single handedly trained the entire EUW region to be better about dealing and playing with splitpushing champions. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Baus contributed to EUW being the best at macro out of all regions

[@eebbaa5560]

i don’t usually surrender before 20 minutes, but i’m not above pressing yes to save time. the only times when i vote no is when the game is actually close and someone is rage-ff’ing or when it’s my last game of the night and i want to hold my teammates hostage. the problem with never surrendering is that it is always, unequivocally, a waste of time. you’re playing based on the assumption that not only will the enemy repeatedly make major mistakes, but also that your team will be able to capitalize on them. i often have games where i have a decent laning phase, but the score is like 21-7 in the enemy’s favor before 20 minutes. the biggest issue with never surrendering is that, no matter how long you drag the game out for, your teammates will never evolve past the level of sapience of a single-celled organism, and you’re predicating your potential victory entirely on the enemy. in fact, they’ll probably play worse somehow. the last reason why i don’t believe in masochistically drawing out games is because i simply do not care about lucky wins. my learning objective is to win lane. i don’t care about anything that happens past 15 minutes in a game. if my team is winning at this point, i won’t give up even if i lost my lane, but if my team is losing, then i’d rather just conserve my time and energy and play the next game. you gain next to nothing from winning a lost game, and oftentimes it doesn’t even feel rewarding unless you have a personal vendetta against someone on the enemy team.

[@buberoini]

Now the main question is this ranked or draft? If its ranked then i hard disagree. Draft? I disagree a good bit, but i see more of your side. Even if im losing hard, if im playing a champ i like, im going to have fun because league is an amazing video game and i have fun playing it. I have fun winning too, but those games where you pull it back are the best! And i wouldnt call it luck. Sometimes its a mental powerspike, or an item powerspike, or someone did a lot better in the teamfight than normal. Theres a lot in there that is more than just luck.

[@orestestza]

Took me long to realise this. I used to be the guy with that "never surrender mentality", which is essentialy a delusion. Nowadays I value my time much more and I don't drag an already lost game to 40 minutes. It's much better to save 10 15 20 minutes of your valuable time. I also never surr at 15 because there is still lot of room for opponents to make mistakes. And, sometimes it's better to surr a game at 20 and hop on a fresh one rather than playing a 50 minute game to win. Are the 15- 20 lp worth 50- 60 minutes of my time? I don't think so, because aside from the time lost, it's also the brain energy wasted. Games 40 mins or above can get so tiring.

[@eebbaa5560]

@@buberoini if you don’t even surrender draft games idk what to tell you. also, i’m not saying hard games can’t be fun, but there’s a difference between “hard” and “3/19 botlane”. sometimes you just need to know how to cut your losses.

[@eebbaa5560]

@@orestestza never surrendering is pretty much just gambling your time and energy for LP. it’s not efficient or enjoyable and i always regret dragging out games. people who think they’re making a difference with the never surrender bullshit just piss me off tbh. the bottom line is that i don’t care enough about winning enough to throw away 40-50 minutes on a lost game, especially when my teammates aren’t even going to try to win.

[@buberoini]

@@eebbaa5560 you say cut losses, but again why would i cut my time playing? Especially if queue times are shit, i want to play as much as i can, even if that means playing way far behind. In ranked it also isnt just not gaining 20 lp, its losing lp too. If you win, you gain 20 lp plus the lp u prevented losing.

[@dracuhl8342]

at the 1:17:20 -ish area I disagree. You talk about playing from behind but there are degrees to that. Are you really playing the game if you cant walk up to farm the wave, you cant trade, you are basically a canon minion that can move more freely. Then look mid and bot and they are equally screwed and your jungler is being perma invaded and cant farm. Who is playing League of Legends at that point? Yes we all have the war story where our team was 2 and 58 at 15 minutes but through the power of friendship and determination we turned the game into a win. But how many times has it just been a waste of effort for us to just hear Rift Alexa say Defeat? Obviously if its just one lane down 3 deaths sure play it out. But if its a team diff but you have 2 dudes hostage holding the game are we going to act surprised pikachu face when the other 3 players get pissed or "toxic"? I dont know those 2. They arent my friends. Who are they to dictate that I have to stay for another 20-30 minutes because "trust me I carry let me cook". No. Get out of here Bob from accounting department from some random 9 to 5 office. This games an L. Go next.

[@matthewsmith2481]

You are wrong, please look up proper dip form, you are not supposed to arch your back, you want everything straight up and down

[@austin5218]

Get 2 camera

[@FallenNomad]

Be Alois and Azzap. There, saved y’all 1.5 hours.

[@Airmez]

"I don't understand the no FF mentality." -Man who has never reached above Gold but swears he is being held back by bad teammates

[@zane_guitar]

Unfortunately, I don't think this captures reality. I wish it were true that just players below plat are ready to quit at the drop of a hat, but you even see that mentality regularly on the streams of many challenger players. Hopefully players will slowly get more comfortable learning to play from behind. I find games won from behind are some of the most satisfying

[@tango7631]

First!

[@xj3nr]

I dont even play anymore and the title of this vid reminded me why 😂

[@hotdogroll]

The only take away is - elo hell exists, and you guys don't relate to low ELO players. You can 'self-reflect' until the cows come home, but that doesn't stop feeding, afk, and trolling team mates.

[@LisaEifie]

That's acting like those issues only exist in low elo. Many people call emerald elo hell as well nowadays, but that's actually a relatively high elo. These problems come in all brackets and are always an issue, but they're also not the consistent factor in your games over a large sample size. There are 4 people on your team and 5 on the enemy team, so statistically, if you're always contributing positively to the game, you will inevitably climb, even outside of improving and doing nore than the bare minimum