Metamodern Spirituality | Trans-Paradigmatic Christianity? (w/ Jordan Hall)

[@ben-sanford]

Thank you both. It is refreshing to encounter Christianity from your (combined) perspectives. I have been longing for this quality of understanding and have spent much of my life trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It gives me hope.

[@mcnallyaar]

💯

[@jeffbarney3584]

Brendan I am very impressed by your willingness to avoid the debate I know you want and are so capable of having in favor of a posture of the question(s) and letting Jordan unfold his transformation. Jordan's thinking here aligns very much with what we/I was trying to express in our conversation with you. Thank you for this it is a lovely service.

[@TheExceptionalState]

I thoroughly endorse this message :)

[@DanAnear]

​@@TheExceptionalStatesame.

[@moodbox_no]

This is sooooo deeply clearifing for my endover to develop my understanding and relationship to the ultimate. Greatfull.❤

[@mcnallyaar]

Same!

[@TheExceptionalState]

@14:12 - Belief is never unreal, it might be misleading or even incorrect, but it is never unreal. People who would claim such a thing have little insight into how much belief steers their actions, feelings and thoughts in their own lives.

[@moodbox_no]

46:40: MMM... There is the start Point of the new paradigme of Becoming attuned with the really real. The intelligibility of the relational phenomenology Jordan is laying out is phenomenal. Beautiful. Deep resonance. There is the Silk Road, right there

[@futurescapeart]

Agreed. Well said. Phenomenology was the primary concept to integrate here, that was on my mind while listening to Hall. We are on the road to grasping(or groking as Jordan gleefully used) the unification of the material and immaterial in our understanding.

[@sloseabass97]

Thank you, each and both. This was a pretty casually splendid conversation. It helped to "shine the morning up nicely", . . . thank you, again, for that.

[@jennysteves]

I do love these conversations, but I find myself drawn toward such intellectually fine-tuned explorations only after I’ve been anchored elsewhere (the practice of life and relationship including meditation and prayer) by parables and koans. I used to require intellectual understanding. It often now, for me, impedes the flow. Post Covid brain, perhaps.

[@ArtemZen]

Love the questions you asked and how you held the conversation. Bravo Brendan 🙏

[@CrystallineWyvern]

Great talk, glad you and Jordan were able to connect. I have a lot of sympathy with you and still resonate with much of your questions and concerns, coming from Vervaeke's corner of the corner, and Jordan has been a major role model for me in this kind of space. Having gotten baptized last year Jordan's conversion was a great encouragement for me. Listening to your talk with Nate at Grail Country right now, I definitely recommend David Bentley Hart's The Beauty or the Infinite; it was really helpful for me in situating the postmodern and its (along with perhaps some versions of meta modernism) subtle imperialism of (apparent) neutrality, as well as approaching religion and theology and Christianity from an aesthetic (but still metaphysical) view with an appreciation for the particular without being straightforwardly "premodern" or nostalgic. Have you read Hart at all? He and John Milbank were key in making me take Christianity's worldview more seriously. Thanks for the work you're doing and really happy to see the dialogue you're entering into with TLC.

[@suppression2142]

Wow Jordan Hall you have some serious insight!

[@MarmaladeINFP]

I was raised in the Unity Church, which is New Thought Christianity and came out of the progressivism of 19th century evangelicalism. It's the same denomination that Marianne Williamson is a minister in. They don't do baptism nor require dogmatic groupthink in the form of credal affirmations, loyalty oaths, doctrinal submission, clerical hierarchies, etc. It's less a religion of faith than of gnosis. The basis of practice is through personal relationship and personal experience, in that one is encouraged to spiritually question and experiment. The individual is not to believe in God but to know God. And this is considered directly accessible to everyone. This is why it's often called Practical Christianity. But its motivating principle is a vision of divine love, abundance, creativity, and openness. It's maybe closer to the Pauline tradition as carried forward by Valentinus into the early Church. Also, it emphasizes the Pauline view of Marcion who denounced the Old Testament god as different from Jesus' God. It's part of another less well known Christian tradition.

[@gilgamesh2832]

In other words Gnostic heresies... gotcha

[@jennysteves]

@@gilgamesh2832wwjd

[@user-ee9go4dp1r]

What you're describing is Gnosticism. In the same camp would be Shirley McLane and so much New Age. Williamson's sacred book is the Course in Miracles, allegedly dictated by Jesus to a non-Christian woman. Full of semi-truths that guide one in a direction ultimately opposed to the way of Christ. To Self idolatry. Instead of Christ.,,,Anti-Christ. I do know someone who was seeking God through that path and was led ultimately to the Orthodox way where she is finding all that she was seeking.

[@ClayB05]

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

[@Rsvohi]

Christian Gnosis is essential to the faith and is not the same as “Gnostic”.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

Damn Jordan! “The propositional is extremely light” 😮 : ) 15:45 Because of the fellowship of the Spirit ♥️

[@christianbaxter_yt]

17:31 east and west church opponent processing is good because of information access

[@christianbaxter_yt]

18:32 Protestantism imbibed/smuggled in the enlightenment into their epistemology via journalistic/scientific enterprises/power/influence

[@christianbaxter_yt]

20:15 have a roadmap to get past the modern epistemological impasses of debate - ie Jordan Peterson was the first giant leap in this roadmap

[@christianbaxter_yt]

20:51 symbolism and higher liturgies are the language for this translation process - liturgy and formal worship are a type of procedural knowing of truth

[@christianbaxter_yt]

There is a reality to experiencing and feeling Truth qua Truth, not just the “light” understanding of the truth 26:57

[@tracymoore9404]

Excellent. Thank you for this.

[@annemariesegeat9397]

Resonance here! Thank you!💗🙏

[@MarioSpassov]

Great talk. Jordan will have a far-easier time to convince other fellow atheists of his version of Christianity than other actual Christians though.

[@nicklaurence318]

Thanks for having and sharing this conversation 🙏. I wonder if either of you have come across Cynthia Bourgeault's work, particularly on the Trinity, which describes within a larger (Gurdjieffian) framework how the trinity is continually participating in the creative unfolding of reality. Would be interested in your thoughts on it, it seems to me quite similar to how you're describing the trinity's ongoing and complexifying involvement in creation Jordan. And she speaks directly to that concern you talked about at the end Brendan, of the wobbles that can ripple out from a distortion in the source code/map, how that can self-correct if we understand the trinity within this larger framework she describes.

[@givenhawk]

1:12:49 here he is pointing to it. The individual human mind does not ascertain these truths. It is a work of the spirit which is both the source of our being and utterly other and beyond. The propositions are like little token representations of the applicable truth to our human world, but their Substance is prior-to.

[@TheExceptionalState]

The enlightenment and the scientific process is a faith based project. Had they not believed in the idea of knowing God through reason and hence investigating nature itself neither would have come into being.

[@rrg0731]

Thank you, gentlemen. Excellent

[@thomassimmons1950]

I've found Eckhart to be immensely helpful with these questions. Good stuff gentlemen!

[@mcnallyaar]

On my list!

[@Rsvohi]

Great conversation. Jordan’s trans-paradigmatic view has a great utility for people today. The idea that all truth must align or only be discerned by scientific naturalism is a limitation of modernity. Can it yield a deep meaningfulness? I don’t know, but suspect not. Scientific truth is a profound blessing. It seems there are other, perhaps deeper and more profound blessings as well.

[@givenhawk]

12:03 it's not merely rational, the Metanoia and the derived propositions are imparted by the Spirit of Truth

[@normaodenthal8009]

The laws of nature come into being during the process of Being coming into being.

[@moodbox_no]

28:44 : Verveake: "The is so much i cannot see for all of the facts" The Socratic Humility from After Socrates series ep. 10B. It's very convergence with what I hear, became an issuse on your relationship with Christianity, Graham...

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

If the fact was that Jesus never lived, would that have an impact on being a Christian?

[@moodbox_no]

From what I hear.. after you had the first person experience it did not match with all the facts in the scriptures etc.. Sound like a propositional tyranny...?@@BrendanGrahamDempsey

[@user-jo6fo5tl1u]

The fact is that you cannot see that because of all of the facts.

[@user-jo6fo5tl1u]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey but again, as Jordan stated, the propositional is weak.

[@mcnallyaar]

YES!

[@elenabalyberdina2393]

Brendan, you have to push harder to illuminate about dangers of self-confirming

[@intos6511]

I don't get how someone like him can believe into a literal historical physical ressurection. Religious texts and mythologies are written/told by elders with educational intentions in mind, and first and foremost with focus on the spiritual contents and effects of the stories, not on literal historical accuracy. Historicity often was used as a tool, but (rightfully so) is not accepted by modern/postmodern/metamodern adults anymore. Maybe it still can be used for children (and adults on that developmental level), but otherwise those stories should be put in their historical and editorial context. This doesn't diminish the deeper truths contained in them at all. And on that truths faith can be based.

[@HardAtWorkPainting]

Man this was really helpful!

[@tgrogan6049]

How do you "perceive the transcendent" with your five senses or with some "sixth sense"?

[@elizabethmorton4904]

Metanoia can be understood as entering into a new gestalt.

[@grixlipanda287]

Based on my own experience, it would appear that protestants have quietly accepted the Trinity in the last 5 years or so, after decades of arguing and criticising Catholics over it. Are you going to discuss how this came about? Also given that you've accepted the Trinity, doesn't that now open up the possibility that Catholics are right about other interpretations of the Bible?

[@dalibofurnell]

Excellent

[@givenhawk]

i'm sure you don't mean to be smug but your doubt is inseparable from your hubris. The most real Person is not an unreal person. You will have to get out of the way....

[@elenabalyberdina2393]

i t doesn't look like Jordan is looking for corrective mechanisms, he is selling relationship with Christ, but never explained on basis of what, except faith...

[@elenabalyberdina2393]

🖐

[@givenhawk]

41:31 properly receiving the eternal transcendent into the here and now makes this less about panicking because of the proposition of eternal damnation and more about the pertinence of the eternal as expressed in time and space here on earth. you separate and cheapen the reality of heaven and hell by reiterating the future-destination-of-fire-and/brimstone as the main driver. Truth is the driver, not fear of consequence.

[@tgrogan6049]

How does he "know" he has a "relationship with Christ" if Christ is propositionally undefined. So, if I asked Jordan "tell me about Christ" what would he say? I have relationships with people, but they always seem to come with beliefs about who they are. I love "my" daughter. I love my wife because I accept that she is not a serial killer based on evidence. How do these people even know an "invisible entity"? It seems like a form of gnosis.

[@tgrogan6049]

Citing Jonanthan P. as an expert in anything besides Iconography is absurd IMO. Can he even read Greek? There are competent people in Classics/Philosophy departments who are experts in Neo-Platonism. Why aren't they referenced?

[@vu4y3fo846y]

Did Jordan really just say ChatGPT convinced him of the truth of the resurrection? WTF

[@givenhawk]

no, but he seemed to indicate that utilizing it augmented his perspective.

[@septillionsuns]

Christ was obviously influenced by Eastern religions. When you understand that the Holy Spirit is the divine feminine, Kundalini, Gaia, the Universe, Shakti, Asherah, Sophia and more, then you can toss out the canonization and the edifice of Christianity and finally find Christ.

[@MS-od7je]

As being fully human “ the child grew “ in wisdom and understanding… Being led by the spirit The Christ no doubt understood eastern philosophy. However ideas were mapped onto who he was and the purpose of his life( ontological). It is the thing to love your neighbor as yourself but a completely different thing to love your enemy and pray for those who do you harm. The fractal nature of philosophy ( of nearly everything) means that as blind as we are to the depths of reality, as blind we may interpret different parts of the elephant as a portion of the fractal pattern. The Christ consolidated all the interpretations of the elephant into a philosophical, religious reality by being led by the spirit to learn and understand philosophy outside of the formal context of education ( influenced by God the father and the Holy Spirit not the Brahman. He became/was the (A)Brahman story in its reality) .

[@septillionsuns]

@@MS-od7je he deferred to the Holy Spirit and said we would do things greater than he did.

[@MS-od7je]

@@septillionsuns and thus we shall! IMHO it will be by the science of God but cannot be without faith. Albeit Jesus did ask if he would find faith when he returned. What could he possibly mean? It is my opinion ( and I’ll try to only make this claim herein) that with the knowledge of the Mandelbrot set complex… the image of God… we can heal , reconstruct, resurrect…. But so too will the anti christ perform “ miracles”. You may note that on a different platform a connection showed me that Microsoft is using the Mandelbrot set image as a logo. Which given who owns it I wouldn’t doubt that my 2 years of bringing this up with images on that platform someone was watching… a master thief who doesn’t understand the fire he playing with ( or at least he thinks he knows something he does not) But anyway I dare not let my schizophrenia get away from me… Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean that they’re not out to get you! Blahaha Some secret are hidden out in the open.

[@pricklypear6298]

I was expecting Metamodernism to have more to say about Christianity than the run of the mill deconstructionist Dawkins style talking points.

[@gilgamesh2832]

It's a pointless movement. It's an anti-theology of how much can we get rid of whilst pretending we still have Christianity at all afterwards... absolutely delusional.

[@matthewparlato5626]

Interesting...it was a certain tact..

[@mcnallyaar]

Noteworthy critique. In his defense, BGD did say he wanted more to learn about Hall's thought, rather than debate with him. BGD does go on to do more of a Meta-Modern response in this later video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fna8nayDbLCZhKMsi=uVjjhwd1T_4cQlCm

[@futurescapeart]

I dont see it that way. I take Hall’s position to be opening the door (a bit wider)within the Christian conversation as to the dogma of theology being held within an ‘also true’ Astro-theology. Many Christians generally tend to, by necessity of dogma, want a neatly-articulated specialness/rightness in the greater pantheon of belief. I am seeing a pov of the paradigmatic transformation & transmutation discussed, which encompasses the physical secular Jesus person in an accurate totality while also understanding the paradox (holon & fractal, above & below) in the embodied Christ by Jesus the man. While Jesus the man and Christ the King can be viewed coherently as one, both can also be understood within the far longer story of God and Creation. This is all cosmological in a way to me, that holds the purely theological in honor while seeing our theology as a fraction of the whole truth of GOD. I think Hall appropriately senses the lens which BGD was perceiving the conversation through and was seeking to glean from his time with Hall through. Rather than suggesting JH is dancing around the questions from a deconstructionist worldview(which is missing-the-point, imo), we can appreciate the very real possibility that he has a valuable, valid expansion of Truth being offered into a theological conversation that is already self-admittedly propositionally-defined and lived within a felt-sense of gatedness. Applying suspension-of-disbelief is application and exercise of faith as well, and so we should all be able to honestly vet the answers given to our own questions by folks like JH in this case. Otherwise the variances in set worldviews are equal to existential incoherence, when asking the questions we don’t already know answers to.

[@Magnulus76]

I was cool with alot of this till the priest or minister or whatever started lecturing him and his wife about living in sin, then red lights start going off. I have been in similar religious environments and can recognize spiritual abuse and legalism when I see it.

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

If human thought and science are incoherent, how do you choose any world view, any mental model of reality, let alone Christianity?

[@wpridgen4853]

Arbitrarily

[@Viz-Jaqtaar]

By what is most coherent. Ultimately everything becomes circular, so what makes the best circle?

[@suppression2142]

​@Viz-Jaqtaar Greg Bahnsen vicious circle vs virtuous circle. Check out pressupositionalism there is certainly some insight there on the philosophical level. Very similar to Jordan Petersons view of the biblical corpus as the precondition for the manifestation of truth. One of his students is now even showing this with Large language models and can technically even prove it. Although pressupositionalism is not a evidentialist approach but operates at the most meta pressupositional level possible. What Jordan Petersons student and Jordan is doing is interesting to say the least.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Jordan Hall always struck me as being deeply pretentious. This is the perfect religion for him.

[@givenhawk]

38:18 bingo.

[@tgrogan6049]

This guy has given me zero reason to believe that Christianity is actually true.

[@lukefromdenver7609]

Don't you hear yourselves saying all sorts of bullshit? Doesn't is sound like that to you? Like, we have to learn all this terminology, then we can play chess, with these terms. It'a incredibly boring.

[@mcnallyaar]

I disagree. I didn't have to learn anything, and I didn't detect any bullshit.

[@ClayB05]

I’m with you, man. This shit is tedious. Just read the Bible. It’s all there. And much clearer. This is for enlightenment chuds that think they’re too smart in their rational thinking to take the Bible seriously. They have to make up a whole new lingo to essentially say what the scriptures said more clearly thousands of years ago.

[@tgrogan6049]

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father infinite; the Son infinite; and the Holy Ghost infinite. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal......This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

[@BrendanGrahamDempsey]

And if you’re not “saved” according to this perspective then you suffer eternal torment. A hard thing to ethically affirm…

[@tgrogan6049]

@@BrendanGrahamDempsey I don't affirm it but that is the teaching of historic Christianity. Jordan Hall may be highly intelligent but so was Hegal and nobody knows what the hell he was talking about.

[@williambranch4283]

Too much vs too little metaphysics.

[@HakWilliams]

Stop trying to trans the paradigm. It's not happening.