Calvinists are Stumped by Colossians

Dr. James White was recently interviewed by a fellow Calvinist, Joel Webbon, and they discussed a debate with Dr. Leighton Flowers addressing the crux of the disagreement between Calvinists and all other Christians: DOES REGENERATION PRECEDE FAITH? Specifically, Joel asked about a question that seems to have stumped him regarding Colossians 2:12: "... you were also raised up with Him through faith..."
To watch the original interview with James and Joel, go here: • When To Stop Calling S...
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[@edwardfriedrich411]

When I was convicted by the Holy Spirit! I asked God to forgive me, and to come in me, and cleanse me with his blood, and restore me to the joy of his salvation, and he did! And I receive Christ and joy! Then all Hell broke loose! I was attacked on all sides, the Bible came to life! I’m still under attack! I keep asking for grace all the time. I’d thought I’d share a little of my testimony with you Leighton, thank and keep up the the work the lord has you on

[@albusai]

What kind of attacks?

[@sebastianinfante409]

@@albusai tikles

[@edwardfriedrich411]

@@albusai it’s kinda long story! But it goes into narcissistic affliction, but the lord has me in proverbs! And I can see more then ever! How the abuser operates! To the core, no amount of psychology! Can really can answer! I came out of narcissistic abuse! And there are a lot of christians with u=tube sites mixed with psychology and the Bible, and it doesn’t work! It’s almost lifting Narcissism to the point of idolatry! I try to talk to them few agree!

[@Chupie77777]

@@edwardfriedrich411 I have a lot of narcissistic tendencies and I really don't want to. I would appreciate your prayers to be free from them

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

@@Chupie77777 narcissism is a group of demons. Seek deliverance-- seriously.

[@youflatscreentube]

James sounded a bit like a politician dodging a direct question.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

He sounds like a *lawyer* dodging a direct question.

[@ClauGutierrezY]

@@Emper0rH0rde I see what you did there

[@palmerther]

No, he sounded like someone that hadn't viewed that portion of the scripture in the context of the question.

[@arkrainflood]

arguing with a calvinist is like trying to nail jello to a wall

[@christophersnedeker]

Use 1 Corinthians 8 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It indicates that those for whom Christ died can still perish. The only thing the Calvinist can do is say perish doesn't mean go to hell it means temporary falling into sin. Even though that's not how it's used in the scripture in any other place it means to die, to be lost, to be destroyed completely. The only place where it doesn't refer to total loss is the parables of the lost coin and the lost sheep and calvinists don't claim you can temporarily loose your salvation. But here's the thing. Even if it did mean temporarily falling into sin it still debunks Calvinism when combined with 2 Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Now the calvinist says not willing that any should perish refers only to the church, and that is a valid interpretation. But if perish means temporarily falling into sin then God is still not willing that it should happen to any believer, and if according to Paul it can happen to a believer then God's will can be thwarted and this flies in the face of the calvinist view of sovereignty. My point is even if the most calvinist possible interpretation is used the two verses taken together still disprove calvinism, and if they say it means falling into sin in the one verse and going to hell in the other then they out themselves for making up definitions as it suits them. Use this and you too can nail jello to the wall.

[@arkrainflood]

@@christophersnedeker the typical calvinist is unable to follow the logic steps of your argument....jello still be jello

[@skylercutsforth8595]

And yet Leighton sends 100 nails holding the jello from escaping

[@garytakvorian6204]

@@christophersnedeker Love your citation of 1 Cor. 8. How about chapter 5 where a "brother within" is exhorted by Paul to be "turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Sounds complementary!

[@mjhickson4339]

Freeze jello, drill pilot hole, fix nail through jello to wall .

[@mariussentiveanu7917]

May the Lord bless you brother Leighton Flowers. Praying for you. We need more people like you. Soli Deo Gloria.

[@user-nk8dm7rj6h]

Romans 10:9 correlates with colossians 2:12

[@philosophyze]

I have a tough time listening to James White. You're more gracious than I.

[@goyonman9655]

I listen to James White a lot

[@dejayne8246]

Me too. I know he's very knowledgeable and sometimes I hear nuggets I agree with but I struggle to listen to him at any length.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

without faith it’s impossible to please God, whoever comes to him must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him.

[@jimrogers3911]

Thank you! This is clear cut, no way around this passage. This has to be one of the best arguments against Calvinism!

[@angloaust1575]

Apostle paul didnt have faith before conversion!

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@angloaust1575 The apostle Paul had a ton of faith before his conversion, He just didn't know who Jesus was

[@angloaust1575]

Paul was under the law of moses He hated jesus and consented to Stephen's death and many others Only saved because he was a chosen vessel As jesus said it is I you persecute!

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@angloaust1575 I know intimately who Paul was. taught by Gamaliel a Pharisee of Pharisees. he had great faith in God he just didn't know who Jesus was. and no he wasn't only saved just because he was a chosen vessel. no one is chosen to be saved, that is Calvinistic heresy. our salvation it's dependent upon our decision to receive Christ as Lord and Savior. that is a freewill unilateral autonomous decision we must make. and God is just to hold us accountable because we have that freewill autonomous decision making capability.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Faith preceding regeneration is one of the absolute most simple and clearest teachings of the whole Bible.

[@stonykalangoministries]

OH THEY DON'T DO BIBLE. THEY DO TULIP.

[@sigalsmadar4547]

@@stonykalangoministries 🤣🤣

[@angloaust1575]

Regeneration and faith probably Happen simultaneously It's not important What's more important and scriptural is the two seeds Woman and serpent Obviously the atonement Was only for the seed of the woman!

[@eswn1816]

@@angloaust1575 The seed of the serpent is human? Oh no... 🥺

[@laserfalcon]

@@angloaust1575 It is important because one view denies the Gospel found in 1st Corinthians 15

[@chrissavedbygrace9398]

“You’re not suppose to exegete the text during cross examination, you ask a question!” Had me rolling 😂 great job Dr. Flowers

[@BtZealot]

Watching White tackle Colossians 2:12 was as painful as Joe Biden's CNN townhall.

[@drjcw]

You nailed it!

[@Emper0rH0rde]

As pitiable as White is, his self-owns aren't quite as distressing as elder abuse.

[@gingernutpreacher]

CNN town hall? Excuse my ignorance I'm British

[@danielavasiloaie2237]

Brandon, would you mind explaining the meaning of "being buried with him in baptism", the ignored part which constitutes the first part of the verse used by Leighton as a proof text to "stump" the calvinists. It is clear that the burial with Christ in baptism(regardless of what's your take on the meaning of baptism in the text) precedes the resurrection with Christ through faith, and so, would you not rather give some extra thought to the order presented by PAul, rather that taking everything from Leighton for granted?

[@BtZealot]

@@danielavasiloaie2237 My comment was on White's handling of the verse. Nothing more.

[@TKK0812]

Yeah, I bet the church in Collossae and Ephesus were very much aware that Paul was writing to them knowing that they all had a firm grasp on temporal and logical priority........... Such sophistry. Calvinists will go to such great lengths to make sure you cannot falsify their system.

[@DrGeorgeAntonios]

Well said.

[@TKK0812]

@TheeOlogist I'm going after the calvinist paradigm more than I am RC. If these categories or distinctions are indeed part of the exegesis of these texts for calvinists, then one must necessarily believe that not only Paul had these categories in mind and understood them but that he also meant to convey them to his intended audience whom he must have believed would understand them as well.

[@jimhughes1070]

Even though they are not without stamina, They continue to fail with... Bible readers... The entire Canon refutes.. TULIP.... "BELIEVE every Word" Worldwide deception began a long time ago 👍

[@TheNathanMac]

I’m so glad the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the logical fallacies in Calvinism, and logical conclusions of even Calvinism lite.

[@TheNathanMac]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi He is the truth. Salvation is in Him. Regardless of your soteriological position. Calvinism doesn’t save you

[@saraircrew8517]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi God covering someone's eyes that is seeking truth? What garbage!

[@musicotensai]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi So it's God's fault? LOL. Can you read your own comments and see how stupid they are?

[@saraircrew8517]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi it's only seeking truth if it's your truth. Got it. And they are the narcissist!

[@TheNathanMac]

@michael Michael you’ve not even heard my position. Yet you feel the need to tell me that I’m bastardising the gospel? What is the gospel? Has nothing to do with whether I have free will, but whether I believe in Jesus, the call constantly of scripture to repent. To believe is an active verb in Greek, to actively believe upon Christ. I remember being as angry as you, I pray that God pulls you out of this Gnosticism in a mask.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

[@ShooterReview]

How many believe in Acts on the day of Pentecost?

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@ShooterReview 120+ the 3000 that we're added the same day.

[@ShooterReview]

@@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 " as many as has been appointed to eternal life believed ." The exact number that had previously been predetermined or predestined believed.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

@@ShooterReview no such thing as calvinist predestination.

[@ShooterReview]

@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 No one said that. I si.ply quoted the scripture

[@blessedbeyondmeasure8754]

Dr. James White certainly did use red herrings, straw man and ad hominem attacks. Such a shame because it is hard to take someone seriously that stoops to this reaction. Excellent video. God bless.

[@anthonym.7653]

Joel being utterly stumped at this verse should make Calvinists pause and think it through.

[@joshuagroh7958]

Never really knew what a calvinist was. I heard it in church growing up all i knew it was bad and false teaching. Now I know it really is, keep up the great work.

[@John-lq7hs]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi The idolatry is in the name Calvinism. That’s the name of a man “idol” in case you didn’t realize. Nice try though!

[@John-lq7hs]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Yeah clearly because you make such a good point 🤣 way to refute the fact I gave you, let me try. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[@John-lq7hs]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi The first sign I got that Calvinism was a lie was noticing that the only reply you have is ad hominem nonsense.

[@John-lq7hs]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi What is this trying to prove? You’re definitely not Jesus He brought truth you bring Calvinism.

[@John-lq7hs]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi That was a definite answer to your ridiculous question. You can go ahead and assume everything Christ does is called perfect.

[@jakeofalltradesmusic]

If there's anything I learn from these debates, it's that people are set in their beliefs, with no hope of being able to change. Because people will resort to logical fallacy instead of admitting defeat. Even the guy who admitted being stumped scrambled to find a reason to hold on what he was wrong about.

[@craigmahoney4482]

Ussualy yes. But no, people do change thier minds. Not immediately or in front of the people they are arguing with, and definitely not on camera or in front of an audience, but of course it happens. It's very cynical to think that nobody ever changes even though it is a popular sentiment today. God's Word changes people and never returns void.

[@daveyboy6985]

Prides a terrible stumbling block.

[@dawn2508]

Leighton was a hardcore Calvinist for ten years so yes people can change their mind

[@robertlewis6915]

Dude. Flowers even noted that the guy's choice to divert to a topic he had some knowledge of was perfectly understandable.

[@mephi654]

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Check the Greek text. It includes the word we translate as ‘the’. The verse reads: “… ye are risen with him through THE faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” It does not read “through faith”! The faith spoken of is in agreement with Paul’s assertion in Ephesians 2:8 “… and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” The faith that ‘raises you with him’ itself is given to you first. It is a gift. But Armenians prefer to boast.

[@LetTheTruthBeTold8324]

By whom also we have ACCESS BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[@MiniMaker68]

My son got me listening to you a while back, and all I can say is,,, Thank you! I could NEVER think that I was so special to be Picked to go to heaven, I know the Word says God is Not a respecter of persons, and Jesus said, For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The Only way we know Jesus, is thru FAITH! Your doing an awesome job! Again, Thank You!

[@rob5462]

@@jessethomas3979 Your wrong they would Calvinists do not believe that God has salvific love for all men.

[@dougmcconnell4878]

@@rob5462 I was just wondering: If God's intention and goal is to save all people, wouldn't we have say that he has a very high rate of failure? About a third of the world claims to be followers of Jesus and yet as evangelicals we do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church nor the Greek Orthodox church preach the saving gospel. Most liberals Protestants do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate, and they certainly do not believe that he is the only way to God. Most of those who claim to be Christians are not by any biblical definition. So, perhaps 10% of the world's population is saved and yet God's intent is to save 100% so that means he has a 90% failure rate. If God's intention is to save all people then why does he allow millions to die each years having never heard the gospel? If we say that people don't need to hear the gospel to be saved, why send out missionaries? Paul in Romans 10:14 asks: "How can the believe on him of whom they have not heard?" His point is that they cannot, which means they perish. You might say "Well, it is our fault that we didn't get the gospel out to them." If God knew that would be the case, why didn't he send angels to proclaim the gospel to these perishing people? Why doesn't Jesus make a personal appearance to every unbeliever just as he did to Paul? If we were to answer by saying: "Yes, God wants everyone to come to Christ, but he doesn't want to "force" (irresistible grace) them to come but wants them to come of their own free (autonomous) will. If that is the case there is something that God wants even more than to save people, that being to maintain the "free will" of men. If the Calvinists are right then God's intent is to save the elect and he does so 100% of the time. If the Arminians are right God intends to say all people and yet fails over and over again to do so. If that is the case, God must be the most frustrated person in the whole Universe. Job had a clearer understanding of the God we worship when he said: “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:2) All things certainly includes the most important thing- saving sinners to the glory of his grace.

[@kerrylawson7515]

@@dougmcconnell4878 God offers grace, always. He doesn't force it on anyone, whether you take it is on you. And he did warn that the gate is strait, the way is narrow, and *few* there be that find it.

[@JuanRodriguez-jn7zx]

@@dougmcconnell4878 So Calvinist say God has 100% success on saving the elect which are the 10%, no giving any chance or responsibility on the 90%, and non Calvinist say God has 100% success in saving those who believe which are the 10%, giving the 90% the opportunity to be save and let in completely responsability for their sin. In both cases God saves ONLY the 10%. The Arminian God in your opinion is a looser. The Calvinist god is a monster.

[@matthewdemarco9350]

The very fact you used to words "I'm so special" shows you have a complete lack of knowledge on what reformed theology is all about a. And b, it completely explains why you take such surface level proof texting as biblical truth. Reading through some of these comments is enough to depress me. Yall remind me of horses with blinders on. I sincerely pray that God allows yall to lay your traditions down long enough to take time to study the scriptures. I mean that sincerely and out of love.

[@DamonNomad82]

I was actually expecting Dr. White to start the "Leighton Bad Man" phase of his reaction sooner than he actually did. It seems to be his "cure-all" to having the fatal flaws of Calvinism debunked.

[@obrien709]

Yeah he usually starts dimming the lights immediately.

[@evolgenius1150]

Hah, you know they have no argument if they resort to ad hominem attacks

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

23:00 I knew that quoting of Greek from JW had to come! 😂 When he can’t answer a question he starts throwing down a few words in Greek to impress you and make you think “wow he makes no sense but he can read Greek so he must know what he’s talking about”. 😂

[@Salvation-Damnation]

Like sonny hernandez

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Then you better get busy learning Hebrew and Greek so you can defend your Calvinism because you can’t do it in English 👍

[@a.k.7840]

@@kevinkleinhenz6511 ROFL! We shouldn't hold that against Michael... No one can defend it in English! They're all just in denial.

[@musicotensai]

His Greek pronunciation is so bad too. It doesn't matter in the topic at hand but I thought it was funny.

[@a.k.7840]

@@musicotensai I often think we don't give enough credit to the scholarly work of all the English translators to date. People are quick to go into the Greek to prove they have the correct interpretation. In my opinion in some cases it's similar to proof texting.

[@sheilasmith7779]

Augustine never completely abandoned Manecean beliefs about the nature of God. In his late life he brought Manecean belief into Christianity. Augustine thought of salvation through an agnostic lens. This led to searching scripture to support his beliefs about the nature of God and man. This led to a tangle of contradictory and illogical beliefs that Calvin carried forward from Augustine.

[@INSPIREDGenerationMedia]

Thank you Dr. Leighton, your knowledge of the Bible is amazing. Keep making videos like this. Im learning a lot from you.

[@somethingtothinkabout167]

Wow, this is why calvanists don't add a comment section to most of their videos.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

Thin-skinned people typically have even thinner arguments. James White has tengujo-thin skin. That's why he's the one sputtering with rage, and Flowers never even raises his voice.

[@ClauGutierrezY]

@@Emper0rH0rde so true

[@somethingtothinkabout167]

@@thomasglass9491 I find calvanism is mostly a philosophical perspective used to assure it believers they are saved despite the clear and apparent lack of the Spirit in their lives.

[@jillianmathews3749]

Thanks for your ministry. Praying for many to see the error in

[@mynonameyt]

I know very few people who have a strong belief in something that change their mind when presented with facts that would other wise convince them. It's called "pride". Thats why James White seems to attack the person not the argument when he's backed into a corner.

[@Golden_writes550]

Well done Mr Flower's. You had them on checkmate...

[@ryleighloughty3307]

No.

[@dorianjohnson8480]

Even if Jesus Christ shows Calvinist that this is wrong, they’d quote John Calvin to Jesus. 😂

[@shiniquajones2812]

Exactly

[@shiniquajones2812]

I’ve often debated Calvinist about there worship of Calvin and they always say they don’t so then I insult Calvin and watch as they defend him to the death. You could insult Jesus and they wouldn’t be as defensive

[@scottyfleming2203]

😂😂

[@richardwashington421]

😂😂😂

[@palmerther]

This is nonsense, although I'm sure there would be some. Keep in mind that some of modern day Calvinism isn't always what John Calvin taught. There is doctrinal drift in all traditions. Is your argument against certain teachings? If so, do you believe that they have elevated to damnable heresies? In other words do you think Calvinists are outside the faith? If you think they are inside of the faith, do you think this is how you should address those in Christ? Your brothers and sisters? If you think they are outside of the faith, why do you think that?

[@eswn1816]

Do you notice how Calvinists find their identity in a Calvinist doctrine instead of their identity in Christ. 🙏

[@stephenhuntsucker3766]

Very true! They’re always quoting this creed or this historic pastor, scholar, theologian, etc.

[@darryld.8616]

No i do not

[@SaneNoMore]

I am not a Calvinist, but it would be dishonest to say that Calvinist are not as devoted to Christ as as non-Calvinist.

[@eswn1816]

@@SaneNoMore You say that you are not a Calvinist. Fair enough. BUT, do you understand 5-point Calvinism? Do you know about it's gnostic roots... Augustine's influence and importantly the implications for "robot -like" determinism?? It's a doctrine that's a plague upon the Gospel and true Christian growth as it teaches a perverse image of both God and Christ. Check out its history... you might be surprised what you find. 🙏

[@SaneNoMore]

@@eswn1816 I do understand both TULIP and the history of Augustinian thought. That is why I am not a Calvinist. I also understand that God has chosen to mightily use many men who were Calvinist and that these men though wrong in their soteriology still honestly love and serve to the best of their ability, sometimes accomplishing far more than many who have their doctrine more correct. It has often amazed me how God has chosen to use people who have in some area of doctrine a fairly obvious error. It’s like God is willing to use people who submit to and love Him even if they do not have perfect understanding.

[@frodomocho1329]

I just listened to the book of Genesis where it says "5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." What dawned on me finally is this is antithetical to Isa. 64:6 "and all our righteousness's are as filthy rags;" Calvinists harp on this constantly claiming believing is a work, it's not. Abraham believed first THEN God... belief is not a work. It is "spiritual" a part that God created in all of us, not billiard balls. All man has the ability to believe.

[@dedios03]

That is in fact the issue the system says it's a work while the bible says clearly that it isnt a work Quite the opposite

[@John-lq7hs]

Amen!

[@kerrylawson7515]

This is my sense of the way it works as well, though I don't think I'm learned enough to debate anyone.

[@brandone.5106]

I think Calvinists think faith is doing something, i.e. is a work. So they’ve convinced themselves that in order for faith to not be a work of man, it must be a work of God. However, faith is not a work at all as the Bible clearly teaches. Even the demons believe and tremble, but that means nothing. Faith without works is dead. If faith was itself was a work, this dichotomy between faith and works would not be made in scripture.

[@dandridgeconard3222]

Faith is not a work. But the Holy Spirit does work by touching our mind so that we may have faith. Phillipians 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." There is work being done, but its not being done by us. Also, notice the scripture says He began the work. Anyone who says, "I had faith first then" or "I believed God first then, or "I made the decision to serve God first then" is clearly in violation of this verse. He began the work.

[@cvent8454]

Dr. Flowers, keep holding their feet to the fire of God's truth, the Bible. Blessings...

[@saltnlight8072]

Thank you, Dr. Flowers.☺ Excellent work-as always!- in exposing the unbiblical fallacies of Calvinistic theology. Other than coming to a holy, loving God in repentance and faith and receiving forgiveness of my sins through Jesus via His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave...I have had no greater joy than throwing off the chains of Calvinism. ❤

[@Drew32296]

Praise Jesus Christ! One of the most demonic false doctrines out there

[@prvtcaboose]

I understand that. I was discussing some things the other day with a Calvinist and though I came graciously, but ready to debate, he came at me really nasty and self-righteously. Numerous times he called my beliefs "bad theology" without even knowing my full theological background and ideas. He also said, "I know you're bad theology better than you do..." I did not attack him back, but he kept lobbing bombs at me. It was crazy! Anyway, I love you brother. And I love how Leighton shows how to graciously disagree without putting down your brother. We are all part of the family and that's what matters most! Praise God!

[@huntsman528]

Joel's humility in losing gives me hope for Calvinists! I respect that dude!

[@davidhorvat700]

“being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬ ‭KJV‬‬ This scripture explains that God starts the process of salvation in those that are saved and finishes the work . From the plan of salvation conceived in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, to the elect or chosen individuals that are shown mercy, to their regeneration and belief or visa verso , to the effectual completed work, it is all accomplished by God for His glory . To believe any thing else is a false and distorted gospel that can not save. The following verse supports this statement “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭15‬ ‭KJV‬‬ If you do not understand this or disagree, pray to God for spiritual understanding.

[@ShowCat1]

I think White has opened the door for Joel Webbon to leave Calvinism. Joel was looking for White to reasure him that Dr. Flowers was wrong. In typical form, White dodged the questions.

[@Apollos2.2]

You hit the nail right on the head!

[@Richardcontramundum]

Me too! When Joel asked he was very humble and hesitant, in a good way

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

I agree, he's got to be sleeping with one eye open.

[@a.k.7840]

As evinced here in this thread, calvinism breeds a lack of genuine love for the lost. A product of emulation of the god it postulates.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@a.k.7840 What a man believes about his God's desire towards mankind will inevitably be acted out by that man towards his fellow men. It's why John Calvin could execute deniers of his doctrine without remorse. And Calvin is not alone in this. The same scenario is seen throughout the history of 'religion'. All of Christ's actions on earth, and in heaven, are a direct demonstration of God's desires towards mankind. Calvin's assumptions are not to be found among them.

[@kimsteel366]

When you know/understand Scripture better than a Greek/Hebrew scholar.... 😳😳😳😬😬😬 Mega kudos and props, Doc Flowers! 👏👏 You might not consider yourself to be a theologian, but you most certainly are! Blessings to you and all you do!

[@lonelyguyofficial8335]

....Kinda thought you were being sarcastic at first with the first line there. 😅

[@mikeskrib510]

I cant stomach James White anymore God forgive me, man he so disingenuous he never honestly answers a question. He always has these shady tactics that just makes him look more and more dishonest about his theological positions and agendas.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

@PaulOf Tarsus I doubt White is a closet atheist. His problem is that his entire theology, his entire worldview, his entire life's work, everything he is depends solely on his Calvinism. And this is by his own admission. If he is wrong about Calvinism, he loses everything. *Everything.* If he's wrong about Calvinism, in his mind, then there is no God. It's like a lot of young earth creationists and Genesis 1. Either that is a literal word-for-word description of events, or we're all the result of a cosmic accident and a series of mutations. One or the other, and there can't possibly be a third option. This is why he is so vicious in defending the doctrine. Take away his Calvinism, and it's like you've destroyed his entire world.

[@kerrylawson7515]

I love RC Sproul's teaching on almost everything but his Calvinism, bless his memory.

[@dfischer5878]

@@kerrylawson7515 all of RC’s ministry was the sovereignty of God and God centered. You can not separate it

[@kerrylawson7515]

@@dfischer5878 Justify baby sprinkling, if you can.

[@kerrylawson7515]

@PaulOf Tarsus I don't think he's an atheist. I just think he's too invested in his pride of scholarship.

[@PETERJOHN101]

Rejection of the clear meaning of the Colossians passage DOES reveal that Joel is wrong. It is so frustrating when Leighton says Joel's position may not be incorrect. So, what is the purpose of doing apologetics on this topic only to capitulate on such key points of doctrine?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

7:10 lol... interesting observation on his part. "I should have debated Limited Atonement" an argument in which he would assume Total Inability to be true....🤔 It seems the problem for them with Total Depravity=Inability is they have no contextual verse or passage to properly establish it. The position was created out of logical necessity because of their assumptions and used to explain situations here "on the ground" to maintain their system. Then the 'hunt' for he Biblical support came afterwards. It is the 'missing link' of Calvinism but interestingly the very foundation upon which they have built their doctrine.

[@wfxxfox1963]

Very well said... I thought along similar lines when he said that, thinking, "Oh PLEEEEZ try to Biblically support Limited Atonement... it is perhaps the easiest stone of their theology to crumble in light of Scripture!" In fact, the whole of their theology crumbles in light of Scripture, requiring them to use interpretations, terminologies and definitions which are totally inconsistent with the Scriptures they claim to be derived from. Why would ANYONE subscribe to a theology that relies on Scriptural side-steps to claim truthfulness? Why not give the unknowable things to God, such as exactly HOW His sovereignty and man's free will co-exist to bring us the miracle of salvation? I've even heard them say John 3:16 doesn't really mean what it CLEARLY says... how such scholarly, devoted and saved men such as Piper, McArthur, Sproul, Alcorn, Keller... et al can continue to believe and teach this unbiblical theology is one of my greatest puzzle!

[@HolyMolysDonutShop]

Spot on RL!!!

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@toddstevens9667 Who here said everyone is going to heaven? It's obvious, not everyone will believe Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus spoke that even if one came back from the dead some would not believe. Calvinists and Arminians are cousins fighting under the same tent of Total Depravity=Total Inability from birth. (Arminius desperately tried to convince everyone in Geneva he was still a Calvinist ...to save his own neck). Based on this false premise, both contend that God has to 'do' something else to man beyond what Christ has already done for salvation to work, but they disagree on how it's accomplished. I.e., foreknowledge or elected to salvation from before time. Paul says clearly that Jesus died for the sins of the world... all of it and everyone in it. The price of 'death' is paid, acceptance was demonstrated by Christ's resurrection and ascension into heaven. Paul said if Christ be not raised then our faith is in vain. God saves all those who believe in what Christ did. The concept of 'limited atonement' in any form conflates what Jesus did in paying the price for sin(death) and the individual's salvation which it contingent on their belief in Christ's sacrifice applying to them. Salvation is a free gift available to all who will believe. No verse in proper context establishes anybody is born unable to confess their sin and believe in the Gospel when confronted with it. The Gospel IS the power of salvation to all who will believe. Some will believe, some will not, ...anyone can.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@toddstevens9667 My reply was not an attack, please accept my apology if it seemed so. Christ willingly shed his innocent blood, not blood of lambs and goats, but human blood and atoned (paid sufficiently for) the sins of the whole world as Paul says. THAT is the atonement for sin and it is unlimited in that respect. But unlike the symbolic sacrificial lamb slain every year to merely roll forward their ever mounting debt of sin as the Jews looked forward in faith to the coming Christ, the shed blood of the Living Christ paid the debt of sin once and for all. BUT His death alone without the resurrection was insufficient to provide the promise of new everlasting life to the believer, as Paul also says; If Christ be not raised our faith is in vain. Receiving the actual benefit of the atonement for our sin is made Graciously available by God for anyone willing to believe and have faith in Christ. The atonement is not limited, it is effective for any and all individuals willing to believe. Like I said, Some will believe, some will not, ...anyone can.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@reynaldodavid2913Jo Sorry Reynaldo, we spent 3 days in Dec.'20 going back and forth over this while you insisted that Cain was NOT the son of Adam and Eve. And your persistence about the parable of the wheat and tares being proof establishes predestinated salvation for only a small minority and Total Inability for the vast majority of mankind who are born 'unable' to respond positively to God by His own decree is, in my opinion, nonsense. I am not willing to go back over any of that with you, it's pointless. You should look up the terms Idiomatic, metaphorical, figurative, etc. and gain an better understanding of their use in scripture. Misunderstanding when terms and passages are 'literal' and when they are 'figurative' is most likely one of, if not, the single biggest causes of confusion in properly applying scriptures on the whole. The Pharisees were NOT literally born "sons of the Devil", and neither was Cain.

[@edwardfriedrich411]

It’s like there swapping total depravity with the reprobate mind! God hasn’t turned everyone over to that mind! Just those that keep rejecting him! And loving there sin onto death.

[@Ginasong]

excellent point

[@lastchance8142]

Sproul says "regeneration precedes faith". I can only speak for myself, but I was born again only after taking the step of faith in Christ.

[@jamesharris3642]

Thank you for clarifying Calvinism :)

[@thediscipledlife]

You are awesome Mr. Flowers! Thank you so much for this ministry and fighting the good fight. My heart breaks for Dr. White. His arrogance and mean-spiritedness continues to blind him. I continue to pray his eyes are opened to The Truth.

[@sunshinegirl1967]

You are so right Justin. Mean-spiritedness is definitely the wrong spirit to have. He needs to be born again. I guess there's always been intellectual "Christians" whose hearts have never been changed. You'll know them by their fruit. Yes, let's pray for the man. God can change anyone. Unless he's reached the point where God has hardened his heart?

[@glurp1]

And he participates in the spiritually abusive leadership at Apologia.

[@joeyrchapa]

Great video. Definitely going to be using this argument with my Calvinist friends.

[@daltonbrasier5491]

It's been about a year. How has it worked?

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

I love Leighton's work, but at around the 11 minute mark I think he did precisely what Calvinists do on Colossians 2:12- except Leighton did it on baptism. The text says "buried with him in baptism" and yet we are told that this isn't "water baptism." But why? There's no justification for this in the text. It says "in baptism." Baptists, in attempting to exegete texts like Titus 3:5, often make much of the fact that the word "baptism" is not used in such passages, leaving open the possibility that the language is that of a merely symbolic washing. Yet this argument is inconsistent with the fact that when it *is* explicitly mentioned, it is still alleged to be a spiritual baptism. (It *is* a spiritual baptism, but the point is that the spiritual and the material are harmonized through the incarnate Word such that the former is operative through the latter) Perhaps Leighton simply misspoke here, but I was especially struck by the fact that he stated that the language of "burial" demonstrated that the baptism was not water baptism and then immediately constructed an argument on the basis of the language of burial that *water* baptism ought to be by immersion. I agree with that argument, but if the language of burial is incompatible with water baptism being its referent, then this passage certainly cannot be used to inform the mode of water baptism! In any case, if texts saying "by baptism" are still taken- without explicit justification from *that particular text* (not simply saying "other passages are conceptually impossible to harmonize with baptismal regeneration")- as something other than water baptism, it seems to me that there is no possible combination of words which could possibly, in any setting, be interpreted as referring to water baptism. Still, you do a terrific job of careful, holistic exegesis and I would love for us to talk sometime. Please pray for me!

[@Sirach144]

Because physical baptism is just a symbol of what's already occurred which is baptism in the spirit.

[@SebroDives]

I agree with you about baptism! How can it not be water baptism. I believe that a spiritual baptism and water baptism harmonize at the same time. Especially when we have examples like acts 8!

[@enhancedcalm]

Imagine being arrogant enough to not be able to say "this might mean this, or that". @23:10. God help us from teachers so arrogant that they are willing to be dogmatically wrong. Also, White is disingenuous, I have lost all respect for him as a teacher. He's a short step away from being a false teacher.

[@featurebroadcast297]

Arrogance is the main reason why I am not a Calvinist.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

They're stumped by John 3:16-17 as well.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

They're not stumped by anything. Calvinists can lawyer away absolutely any verse or passage that contradicts their view. That's what's frustrating. Their arguments are thin, but they frame the debate, because they are the gatekeepers.

[@tatie7604]

You are getting this all twisted up.. Election is talked about throughout the New Testament. You are drawn to Christ into faith by Christ Himself. Jesus appeared to Paul and was drawn to Jesus. It just means God is Sovereign. It doesn't mean your faith in Jesus Christ doesn't save you. It means that faith is also a gift. You aren't supposed to sit around and wonder if you were elected. Just have faith in Jesus as your Savior.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

@@tatie7604 lol- I'm not twisted up. You don't understand the meaning of election as used in the New Testament. And not being Calvinist has zero to do with God's sovereignty. God is sovereign.

[@tatie7604]

@@johndoe-ln4oi I may not fully understand election. And, yes, I agree, God is 100% Sovereign. If you could explain what you think I do not understand about election, I would be grateful to hear from you. God bless you.

[@rosapederson722]

The character of our loving and gracious God is being misrepresented. Keep up the fight Leighton! The lies of Calvinism need to be exposed. Thank you and praying for you.

[@jaym7389]

Yes I do think Calvinism can actually keep people from coming to (the real) God because of how it represents Him. And we just have to look at those professing Christians who have left Calvinism when they fully realise what picture it paints...their faith seems destroyed to the point of Christianity 😢

[@timothywilliams1991]

Thanks for taking it to these calvinists, its been enough of them acting like we're stupid for the traditional non-calvinist views.

[@anthonytan7134]

Very good argument Dr Flowers, love your works ! Gbu

[@thedanieldevotional]

Good verse! I’m gonna try to hang on to this one.

[@nathanclark3575]

Lots of great stuff here Leighton. btw, fresh cut looks REAL nice.

[@DrGeorgeAntonios]

Bro. White is clearly stumped there. Not that winning the argument is the point, but he's definitely "skating", as we say in Quebec.

[@tedroybal5231]

Bottom line: Calvinists preach a different gospel. First, they say the saved were chosen before the resurrection. So, saved without Christ. Second, God is sovereign and He choses who is saved without Christ. Finally, Jesus lied. He said the Father gave him "all authority in heaven and on earth." He said, "the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins." In John 17 he says to the father, "you have given me authority over all flesh." God sent Messiah on a mission, not a forgone conclusion.

[@christophersnedeker2065]

I wouldn't say they believe you're saved without Christ.

[@Richardcontramundum]

Excellent video! I've not watched in a few months (trying to make my own content) but I love the filming set and thumbnails!! Pastor Joel sounded like a good kind of scared. He didn't know how to answer the question from a Calvinist perspective. That's a good thing. You'd think that if someone is going to dedicate years of life and money and reputation they would figure out all the 'ins and outs' to a system thats had a lot of baggage over the years. A system thats currently having a massive split between the woke/crt leftists types and the conservative bible types. David Platt and Matt Chandler Al mohler in the middle. And Voddie Baucham and John MacArthur in the other (James white too)

[@Lumberjack-hs8gb]

Leighton is getting so Dadgum good at this! No reformed theologian wants some of him right now😂

[@Lumberjack-hs8gb]

@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Bwahahaha! 😂☝️

[@a.k.7840]

@@Lumberjack-hs8gb I LOL'd when White tried to refute Ken Wilson!😂😂😂

[@a.k.7840]

@@Lumberjack-hs8gb the irony of people who spend their entire lives making choices choosing to ridicule others for believing we have the God-given power of choice is so thick you need a blow torch to cut it.

[@Lumberjack-hs8gb]

Profound! I’ve never thought about it like that☝️

[@a.k.7840]

@@Lumberjack-hs8gb determinism must be one of the least practical philosophies ever invented. The more you dig down into it, the more the individual identity of the person disappears until virtually all that's left is a psyche reacting to stimuli. The individual becomes incapable of creating anything at all, (not referring to creation ex nihilo, but referring to creating new things by the restructuring/ reorganizing of existing things such as cars, buildings, polymers and alloys, etc.)which seems odd considering that we're made in the image of a supreme Creator. All thoughts, words and deeds must originate not within man, but within the god postulated by theistic determinism.

[@warmanecasualpvp]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 The rebellious old self will always claim otherwise.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

Debate performance does not determine who is correct. Debates fall short in that the audience might come away thinking the better debater is the one who is correct, and the one who performs poorly is the one who is wrong. (Of course, both debaters could be wholly wrong, or partly right.) But let's look at Colossians 2:12. Here are two textual variants, the first being based on the Critical Texts, the second based on the Textus Receptus. *ESV:* having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. *KJV:* Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Flowers wants to focus on the word faith. We can do that. Where does faith come from? The Bible tells us: *Ephesians 2:8* *ESV:* For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God *KJV:* For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: *Hebrews 12:2* *ESV:* looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God *KJV:* Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. It looks as though faith comes from God, Jesus being the author of our faith. Another question that needs to be addressed is what baptism is being mentioned in Colossians 2:12? Is this water baptism? We may need to expand our focus, to get more of the context; we don't want to be too laser-focused on verse 12 only, that we don't see what is being said over all. Let's at least look at verses 6-15 *Colossians 2:6-15* (KJV) 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Verse 11 mentions circumcision, but it clearly says that this is not a physical circumcision, "in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ." This is a spiritual circumcision, it would seem. Is baptism literal in verse 12, then? Certainly, it could be. This is what water baptism symbolizes. It could also be the baptism of the Holy Spirit, since we know that is what Christ does. *Mark 1:7-8* (KJV) 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Which baptism best fits the context in Colossians 2? What is the context? Paul is describing what happened to the believers the moment they were saved. It doesn't seem to be talking about getting baptized after-the-fact, as a symbol of what already happened, but it seems to be saying what happened when they first were made alive in Christ; it describes what salvation does. Since verse 13 tells that we were dead in our sins, but God made us alive together with Him, the context seems to point more to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, than the sacrament of water baptism after salvation. Does this definitively say regeneration precedes faith? A case could probably be made for that. A case could also be made that regeneration and faith happen at the same moment. It seems less likely that regeneration happens after faith, especially since it says, "ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God"; that seems to read as simultaneous occurrences. But even if it did, the faith required for regeneration comes from God, not from ourselves, as Jesus is the author of our faith (not merely the reader, after-the-fact). So, all of this to say that simultaneous regeneration and faith seems to fit the context and language better in Colossians 2:12.

[@tedtuttle6527]

Even a new Christian still living on milk knows that through Faith we are raised. Basic Biblical theology it is all through the Bible example #1 of many is Abraham.

[@fingerzfrienemy2226]

thru Christ we are raraised. we just gotta throw our hat in...

[@tedtuttle6527]

@@fingerzfrienemy2226 yes through faith in Christ we r raised. Most milk believing born again Christians know that. Your hat must be on too tight if u need an explanation of raised.

[@BrotherDave80]

Calvinism falls completely apart when the order of Epehsians 1:12-14 is clearly seen and understood

[@dfischer5878]

? That verse simply says God’s glory is the supreme purpose of redemption. How does it cause “ Calvinism”. Or what I call biblical truth to fall?

[@kenmannagh7788]

You speak so much truth Leighton and i feel sorry and so sad for people who believe in these men like Calvin and Augustine and not the God of the Bible, The truth shall set you free.

[@SpielbergMichael]

Great video!

[@dianehelena]

RC Sproul is certainly correct when he says @1.58 "...because if there's anything that is unique to Reformed theology, it is the idea that regeneration or rebirth precedes faith...". Yes, indeed, it is unique to Calvinism.

[@edwardfriedrich411]

Yes! R.C is wrong faith 1st, then you receive Christ, then regeneration! Just like a { Car ). Battery starts motor, then alternator regenerates battery. It’s so simple a mechanic can understand

[@brentonstanfield5198]

It can be explained in mechanical terms. God puts you INTO Christ (ie a branch grafted into the vine), the vine begins pumping life into you, and then you bear fruit.. ie faith and good works.

[@owengoodspeed5763]

Interesting. In John 15 Jesus puts the emphasis in the branches remaining in him and not on His retaining the branches. And in Romans 11 Paul states that those branches that get cut off, are cut off because of unbelief. He also says that branches may be grafted back into the vine "if they do not persist in unbelief".

[@SlavicUA]

Just to be more accurate and specific, we don't "receive Christ", we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe in Christ. Modern evangelism has put those two together, which is bad theology and is foreign to Scripture. Heaven has "received" Christ until He returns. Let's get this accurate.

[@edwardfriedrich411]

@@SlavicUA Now the correctional officer’s come out! Thanks but no thanks

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@owengoodspeed5763 - Absolutely, we are to abide/remain in Christ. What would stop that from happening? Jesus explains in verse 2 that every branch that does not bear fruit is the one taken away by the vine dresser. Every branch that abides in Christ, and Christ in it, bears fruit. If God is at work in you bearing fruit, then you will remain in Christ. That is why faith/faithfulness is listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22.

[@vantamplin7574]

Thank you so much for clearing up some issued regarding john clavin.

[@gregjay9933]

At the time of this comment 8 people gave the thumbs down. Wouldn’t it be interesting to hear their explanation of Col 2:12 “you were also raised with Him through faith”

[@boluwadekujero1717]

They don't have. All they have are ad hominems

[@danielavasiloaie2237]

Greg Jay, please tell me, leaving aside calvinistic or 'provisionistic' presuppositions, in analysing the entire verse of Colossians 2:12, what is the logical order of the events? Isn't the burial with Christ through baptism(regardlesss of physical or spiritual baptism interpretation one may give to it) preceding the action of being raised through faith?. Thus, according to Leighton's interpretation that sees the second part of the verse as a clear proof for faith preceding regeneration, one is forced to admit that 'burial with Christ' through baptism precedes faith. Do you care to explain the meaning of the first part of the verse?

[@gregjay9933]

@@danielavasiloaie2237 Sometimes Scripture provides a clear order of events, eg, Eph 1:13 hear the message of truth - believe - sealed with the Holy Spirit. Other times an event is listed first which results from a previous action, eg, Heb 3:19, not able to enter - unbelief. In this instance not being able to enter was not determined by another; it is a direct result of unbelief. And so it is with the ‘burial with Christ’; faith leads to our being ‘buried with Christ’. Belief leads to being ‘sealed’ and being ‘buried with Christ’ and in the same way unbelief leads to not being able to enter.

[@danielavasiloaie2237]

Would you mind sticking to to the text we are dealing with, where, it is clearly stated that death and burial with Christ in the baptism(the inner circumcision made by Christ) precedes the resurrection through faith, a faith that is also the gift of God? There is no textual indication of the faith determining the burial with Christ, but rather, the faith is the result of it, the result of the inner circumcision made by God, that results into a saving faith

[@gregjay9933]

@@danielavasiloaie2237 I have responded to your claim that “There is no textual indication of the faith determining the burial with Christ”. I am making the point that sometimes Scripture provides a clear sequence of events and other times events are listed but not necessarily in sequence. Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism - raised with Him through faith. How can it be claimed that an unsaved person who does not know God, who has not repented, perhaps has rejected the invitation of eternal life, is buried with Him in baptism? This is why there is a debate. The Calvinist claims that a person is saved before they are actually saved.

[@rubysanchez132]

I just wish James white answered the question. He obviously can’t.

[@johnsharpe6045]

I really haven't been able to get Calvinists to respond to any of the verses that I put to them that I believe destroy their distorted theology. They always want to distract you off to other verses or tell me that I just need to read Piper or Sproul and those guys will put me right. This is a perfect example of how they can't explain what is obvious in Scripture. Keep them coming Leighton!

[@danielavasiloaie2237]

John, would you mind explaining the meaning of the first part of the verse 12, where Paul asserts that one is "buried with Christ in baptism" Before one is being raised through faith, thus, the burial with Christ, expressed elsewhere(Romans 6, as union with Christ) is presented as preceding the action of being raised through faith, and thus, arguing against the case presented by Leighton through the ignoring of the first part of the same verse

[@rileyneufeld7001]

@@danielavasiloaie2237 But Leighton DID explain the first part of the verse. It was James who brought the first part of the verse up claiming that Leighton believed that we are baptized into faith. Is that what you're claiming? That we are elected into baptism, and hence raised with Christ through faith?

[@mylifeintheusa4720]

Both sides have the same problem. There are verses supporting both views. Armenians love to quote John 3:16 for everything. Yet there are verses saying that God hates certain people. How is that possible if he loves everyone?

[@mylifeintheusa4720]

@@rileyneufeld7001 Leighton explained HIS VIEW. How do you know he's correct?

[@throughthegrace7893]

This is really good. Thank you

[@danielzimmerman4484]

Grace to you in Christ Insight on Colossians 2:12 An unbeliever is not buried with Christ needing raised from that state of Christ’s death. An unbeliever is buried in sin with no Spiritual senses unto God and needs to be brought out of that state of death. After God said “Let there be light” causing the new creation of myself, just like in the Creation account in Genesis, in which Paul quotes that in 2 Corinthians from Genesis, I was brought out of being dead in sin and given Spiritual senses through the Holy Spirit. Later on in my walk in Christ, years later, God revealed to me my union in the death and burial and resurrection of Christ. Actually I need daily death in Christ by union in Him in order to be raised daily, Christ in me and through me by faith [Galatians 2:20] Blessings in Christ

[@JStevensdk7]

If Calvinsts just believed the literal and consistently translated text of scripture, they would no longer be Calvinsts. I'll keep praying for that day. 👍 For by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8 NKJV

[@johnforjesus2823]

Where does our faith come from?

[@JStevensdk7]

@@johnforjesus2823 Your conscious thought. This is combined from your own personal mind body and soul. Your faith does not originate from outside of you and your being.

[@johnforjesus2823]

@@JStevensdk7 help me put this all together: 1. My _salvation_ is not of myself. -- Ephesians 2:8 2. My _salvation_ is through _faith_ -- Ephesians 2:8 3. My _faith_ is my conscious thought and does not originate from outside of myself. -- Jason Stevens

[@JStevensdk7]

@@johnforjesus2823Faith is not what saves, Jesus saves, the finished work of Christ on the cross is what saves, but it is THROUGH faith, faith is not a work but the mechanism of receiving the gift of salvation, faith is the conscious free will choice of accepting the free gift of salvation. Jesus did all the work on the cross, but God is a gentleman, He does not force people to believe, we each must individually choose to believe. Choosing to believe does not make you a part of the salvation process, to say so is a logical fallacy. The gift is still the gift it does not need to be effectual in order for it to be a gift. Gifts by definition are optional.

[@johnforjesus2823]

​@@JStevensdk7 I think I largely agree with what you say I just don't understand that the end result of your reasoning ends in a Biblical place, or my Calvinist brain might be too small to understand this. I now have these statements. 1. Faith is choosing to believe. 2. Choosing to believe doesn't make me part of the salvation process. 3. Faith is either an effectual or ineffectual gift. What about those who don't have faith, those who don't choose to believe? Since they are just as much not part of the salvation process as I am doesn't this lead to universalism?

[@archam777]

Flowers and White are the "He-man and Skeletor" of theology. Ill let the listener decide who represents who.

[@thesimplyagapeproject6342]

Could you provide the link to where you got the RC Sproul quote? Anyone. Not a Sproul fan just wanted to use this to help my church where Calvinism is making in roads

[@mariodayao3104]

Calvinists seem to be always begging or leaving questions unanswered Help them Holy Spirit 🙏🏼

[@sampowellmusic]

James white reading the passage in Greek as if that scores a few points for his argument when he had nothing.

[@luke78333]

Wish I could "like" this video more than once

[@solaar11]

Dr White completely avoids answering the question or rather the Bible verse. Instead he asks clarifications about what Flowers says which doesn’t matter in understanding the text. I’ve had these discussions in bible study and the zeal of the leader led him to diminish my ability to reason or think which was completely disrespectful.

[@W4YN0T]

If one is dead in his trespasses, how can he have faith? It doesn't make sense.

[@Ginasong]

Because God made Himself knowable and being dead in trespasses means you're living a sinful life apart from God. It does not mean your free will is dead or that the fact you were made in the image of God is dead. Faith comes from realization and choice to believe the truth God portrays. People willingly close their mind to God because they love their sin. They are making a choice not to entertain faith.

[@johndisalvo6283]

ALSO....... 1 Peter 1:5. “We are KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH”!!!

[@robertguidry2168]

Calvinists believe in Salvation through faith, and that faith occurs as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.

[@johndisalvo6283]

@@robertguidry2168 Calvinists believe they were hand picked by God BEFORE the foundation of the world, and BEFORE THE CROSS to go to heaven, while the unlucky ones that God hated we’re hand picked by God to go to hell BEFORE they were even born!!! That’s Calvinism!!! Sick🤮

[@tonywolfe9513]

@@johndisalvo6283 it's such a dumb argument for people to have, because both sides completely strawman the other sides position. Neither seem to understand the other because neither seems to want to. At the end of the day, these are metaphysical, philosophical arguments, and they really have NO positives in relation to how they create pride and division amongst brothers who believe in the real Christ, and should be doing His work by being a body for Him who is the head. I must be a masochist. Because I've yet to see any wise men in this comment section, and since I came into the comment section already expecting that to be the case, the fact that I'm still here shows that I enjoy making myself miserable. God bless you all. You're all contending earnestly for the faith alright. Or making it into a mockery on a stupid comment section in the devil's playground. I'll let you decide.

[@johndisalvo6283]

@@tonywolfe9513 You think it’s a dumb argument to correct heresy? Good for you. Guess Paul was “dumb” to correct Peter too! I COMPLETELY understand Calvinism and never “STRAWMAN”. It’s NOT metaphysical or philosophical either. Calvinism is Another Gospel, PERIOD, and makes a “mockery” of the character of a Holy God and the true Gospel! Glad to see you’re the only “wise” one in the comment section. Thanks for letting me decide!

[@tonywolfe9513]

@@johndisalvo6283 what is the only true gospel? You realize I’m not defending John Calvin or his adherents, right? I’m saying you don’t understand, because you don’t. And to your point about me being the only wise person in this comment section, if I’m honest, I’m sure there’s a few wise people lurking around the comment somewhere. They’re just really hard to find. God bless you.

[@paulmann9154]

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

[@earnestlycontend4435]

Well, firstly-we all know good and well and without doubt that Doctor Jimmy listened to the recording of the debate directly multiple times and knows himself what Leighton said-

[@swordmasterpublications]

16:21 Again, great question. When were you circumcised spiritually? When you were immersed, not when you believed. So if this is Holy Spirit immersion, does that mean when you first believe the HS immediately immerses you in Himself and then you are enabled to confess and repent? Are you saved without confession and repentance or does the HS wait until after confession and repentance to immerse you? And if that's the case, what about those in Acts 8 in Samaria who not only believed, but were immersed in water but had to wait for Peter and John to come to them and lay their hands on them to receive the HS? There is an inconsistency here in the HS immersion interpretation that cannot be overcome any more than the Calvinist can overcome Coll 2v12.

[@sheilasmith7779]

James White is being dishonest about Flowers, and Flowers argument.

[@rafbar9876]

I think the biggest problem is words. When we read "in Him" what does that mean in Paul's language. I don't have the answer, but English is probably the worst language to try to translate Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. So, when we read scripture, we try to understand EXACT meaning from our language and its hard to get the complete picture that the original languages used. Now this doesn't mean it's not knowable and the gospel is unknowable. However, when we try to have these arguments with word usage, I think a more in-depth interpretation is needed than us saying, "well the Bible says "in Him"". The phrase "you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God". Where does faith come from? is this something we possess in us from birth? Is this something God gives? Is this from knowledge? Where does the knowledge come from? Does it come from God? So, if knowledge comes from God, and faith comes from knowledge then doesn't faith come from God? So, I don't see ether side answering these questions in the arguments in this video. Neither in Ephesians or Colossians indicate where faith or belief come from just that you have it. So that question remains unanswered. So, as we look what does 2 Peter 1:1 mean "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" If we are using words, it says, "by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" So does this mean our faith is obtained by (from) God? What did Peter Mean when he said this? What does it say in Hebrews 12:2 "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith" What does that mean "Founder of our Faith", (others have Author)? What did the author of Hebrews mean by this? So, is faith in us apart from God? Or is it By God? If it's by God then what did come first? The Faith from God or my faith apart from God? Or is this a joint venture where faith is from me and From God? Then what am I saying, am I equal to God that I can do the same thing He does? Other questions, if faith is from God, is faith part of God regenerative work? Or is it separate? So, then could it be correct to say, "Because of Gods regenerative work and Him Giving us faith/belief ...." In other words, does one have to proceed the other or can God's regenerative work and faith be given and done at the same time? Also, it's my belief there is not a section in Heaven for Calvinist and another section for Non-Calvinist. If you are in Christ, both are sons/daughters of God. However, a proper understanding of God's word is important. So, asking the right questions is important. Giving a proper breakdown from the Greek or Hebrew would also be important in understanding the context. By doing my studies with many teachers you can have a phrase in our English words in one section of the Bible and can have the same phrase in another section but in Greek or Hebrew it can have two different meanings. Things to consider. Just a note, understanding this does not affect my relationship with God, I belong to Him, and because of Him I have peace.

[@drjcw]

Simple answer: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. It doesn't cometh any other way.

[@rafbar9876]

I agree, but both sides have this argument, for some reason I don't understand, which I think boils down to this. Which comes first Faith or regeneration? I think both sides agree regeneration is done by God. So, then we have faith. How is it that I have Faith? What's the effective means or causality by which I can have this faith/belief? is the unanswered question in this argument. Is faith something that I possess prior to regeneration or is faith given from God prior to regeneration? So, when I hear the Gospel what is the causality by which I have that faith? So, in other words, I hear the Word of God, I have faith/I believe, is it something that my mind generates or is it something that God generates in my mind. If it's God and God does regeneration, does it matter what comes first? or for that matter does it happen at the same time? If it's me, am I doing something before God does something? If it's a joint venture, then am I saying I'm equal to God? That I can do what He does. I know the answers but neither one addresses this. I guess the other half of this is "coming to Jesus", What's the effective means or causality by which we can come to Jesus? Is this something only I do? something that God only Does? Is it a joint venture? I know what Jesus said about this, but it's not discussed in depth to have a proper understanding of the effective means or causality. If you're going to argue about this, we need to go in depth on what is the effective means or causality by which these things happen. Through God or by us? To properly understand this, we need to understand the word structure in the original language and not use our English to interpret the scripture. We must understand the culture of the time. The New Testament teachings/writings were first given to a culture way different than ours. So many of the teachings were given to what they would understand better at the time. Not that we can't know it, but if we are going to dig deep like this argument is trying to go, we need to understand the original language and culture. This is not addressing if I can accept it or reject it apart from God, which would be a different topic. But by knowing this it does play into the accepting or rejecting "we" do. Just a note, by me agreeing does not make anything true or false. If something is true it's not my agreeing that makes it true. It true because it's true and my agreeing is an affirmation that it is true. So, if God says it ... that's the end because what God says is true, is true.

[@robertguidry2168]

Then why do some who hear the word of God not have faith? The Pharisees heard the word, and they did not have faith. That means that the Word of God must be revealed by the Holy Spirit in their hearing of the word to have saving faith.

[@rafbar9876]

@@robertguidry2168 yes that is what the Bible says.

[@reddog9484]

Have found it interesting that in the allegory about law and grace in Galatians that Abraham and Sarah's Bodies were physically regenerated after faith to produce Isaac and that Abraham's faith preceding this didn't steal glory from God. Doesn't disprove calvinism, but it is in line with Christ who said to eat and drink (which are analogies of faith) in order to have eternal life. Faith comes first in His sayings. It is in line with repentance unto life. In line with the types of Christ in the wilderness such as the bread, water from the rock, serpent on the pole etc. It's very simple to see.

[@maskofsorrow]

Great exposition Leighton.

[@HonorGod-MakeDisciples.]

Irony of ironies Flowers stomps tulip. JW is gasping for air stammering, blubbering. as if he is drowning completely lost for words.

[@boluwadekujero1717]

You are wicked! Where are your bowels of compassion for bro JW?

[@a.k.7840]

I agree. Additionally, I don't recall Jesus tearing his robes in grief over the Saducees being in error in Mat 22:23. Here's a group of people who were known for their great knowledge of scripture and Jesus insulted them when He told them they didn't know the scriptures or the power of God.

[@opindras.bangerh129]

I have not heard ANYTHING Biblically sensible come from James White for a long time. Whether it's the calvinist non calvinist debate, Christian muslim debate...etc

[@foreleftproductions756]

I love all your stuff but I can't believe your take on the baptism mention in Col 2:12. I couldn't disagree more. Just like in Romans 6:3-4, when you're baptized, by disciples of Christ, in water (I'm pretty sure we can't baptize with spirit), you are baptized into His death, therefore buried with Him and raised with Him. Then you become a disciple and are taught to do the same thing.

[@rtgray7]

Ole Joel kissed the ring. Must have felt great to get a pat on the head from his idol James White...

[@mmi8137]

Ephesians 2:8 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

[@TheLumberJacked]

Like my comment for every time you’ve heard a Calvinist tackle Ephesians 2:8 I expect zero likes…obviously.

[@RezG_777]

I love how the (Reformed-leaning) ESV is the only translation that adds the word "doing" to this verse. They really want you to believe that even our 'belief' is considered a work and cannot be a part of our salvation.

[@stevenanderson9660]

James White’s argument sounds like that of a spiteful man.

[@thediscipledlife]

It's bc Dr. White is a spiteful man.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

White seems, by all accounts, to be a man with a personal vendetta, especially since his elder sister joined the Roman Catholic Church.

[@PrinceDarius777]

Keep up the good work Leighton!

[@vincenttumminello5456]

The message of salvation is the same from Genesis to Revelation. Through faith, by grace. Beautifully simple

[@edwardfriedrich411]

And it’s not really Joel’s fault! White is targeting his insecurities

[@Emper0rH0rde]

Another common tactic of a narcissist.

[@jonhilderbrand4615]

Pardon the long comment. Maybe I should write a book! Lol! Anyway, one of many crises of faith in my life came when our (Baptist) church came under the influence of some (very Godly and well-meaning) hyper-Calvinist new members. It actually caused a small split in our congregation. For me, my intellectual understanding of the Calvinism they taught rocked my world. It set off all kinds of alarms as to whether I was, in fact, among the "elect," and, if so, how could I know? The idea that God was arbitrarily "calling" people to him, who could not, under any circumstances, resist this call, made God a monster. Why bother preaching the gospel? "Because we are told to." Yeah, but so what? Just preach John 3:16 every Sunday, then all the elect can gather for Bible study, and let God do his thing? Around this same time, I had a coworker whose father was a Presbyterian minister. This guy, while funny, likeable, and smart, was MANIC, a chain-smoking, skirt-chasing, profane boozer. He was about 40 years old at the time; I was 21-22. In our first--and last--conversation on religion, he just stopped me and said, "Where there is foreknowledge, there is no free will." Wham! I was stunned! I brooded over this and tried to think of some way I could refute this. I couldn't. Due to this crisis and many that followed, I left the church, shook my fist at God, and turned to a life of hedonism. For 40 years (with a stint in prison in between). It wasn't until I latched hard onto C.S. Lewis' description of how God exists in an eternal state of "now," where the past, present, and future are irrelevant...to Him...that I began to apprehend the concepts and wording used in the Bible of election, predestination and such. He is not "stuck" in time; he exists outside of it. We ARE stuck in time. For us, there is only entropy, everything winding downwards, "forward" (for lack of a better term) to the grave. We have our past, live fleetingly in the present, and are moving towards the future. BOTH experiences (God's: out of time, and ours: in time) are TRUE. They are REAL (though i would accept that God's is "more" real); therefore, what God sees has already happened, whereas, what we see is yet to be or has happened. Since we are stuck in time, we can only fully understand the linear model: We hear the gospel-->we respond (accept)-->through faith-->to salvation. We all know the Holy Spirit is at work in every step; what challenges us is where, exactly, the "change" from death to life takes place. May I humbly submit: It doesn't matter. If we focus on the gospel and people "respond" and become saved, and we see through their discipleship and living that they are bearing fruit, let's praise God and accept it. God knows; we do not. So work, for the harvest is ripe! P.S.: In the same church mentioned above, Super Bowl Sunday often coincided with evening church services, so they would have a member with a VHS recorder time it to record the game while he was at church (yeah, I'm dating myself!). After church, he would hurry home, bring the cassette back, and a bunch of football fans would gather in the fellowship hall and watch it (they might even have recorded it there at the church). This, being a Southern Baptist Church, was a very "solemn" occasion, so the pastor would very gravely counsel anyone who discovered the score before the gathering in the fellowship hall: DO NOT LET ANYONE KNOW. The "deep philosophical question" here is this: Since the game was, in reality, already over, did it make any sense to cheer or complain about the great plays or the terrible fouls or the bad refereeing? Did the players themselves have any more or less "free will" just because the game ended two hours ago? The people watching the game were in the same place we are on this issue. God is like a member present who already knew the outcome, but kept his mouth shut so everyone else could enjoy it. That's the way I see it, anyway. Much peace my friends!

[@sheilasmith7779]

Jon: Editing please. A sound argument can be made in 5 or less sentences. Otherwise the reader falls 😴 asleep. We want to be persuasive so we should keep it simple.

[@jonhilderbrand4615]

@@sheilasmith7779 Yes, I do tend to run on! It's a familial trait; neither of my parents can tell a simple story without the listener hearing our family history! That said, I did warn the reader at the start that it would be a long comment. Anyway, thank you for the advice! I will try to be more concise in the future. God bless!

[@sheilasmith7779]

@@jonhilderbrand4615 Well I'm guilty as well. For me I always think it's necessary that my premise A, must be supported by all the factors that lead to my conclusion Z. In my effort to show my reasoning, my writing can be long, as well. So I admit that my complaint against you is a bit like the pot (me) calling the kettle ( you) black.

[@jonhilderbrand4615]

@@sheilasmith7779 Lol! Thank you, Sheila. To me, it is a joy to be able to engage in a civil discussion on social media. God bless!

[@AnniEast]

I really enjoyed your comment, John, if it's full of wisdom, like yours, it doesn't matter that it is long, the reader is engaged and doesn't even notice. I think too many people scroll down to see how long the msg is and decides if they want to read based on length. This is a pandemic of the new age, instant gratification/short and sweet sound bites that feed the ever cycle of wanting more. I came to notice that I myself struggle to stay interested in videos longer than 15minutes bc my brain adapted to processing so much info in a short period of time, that I got restless when people don't get to the point. Ive since been training myself to again stay engaged for longer periods of time. Our kids' brains, through KZbin shorts and tick tock,are being rewired to not be able to engage for longer periods of time. Not good! We should encourage thoughtful conversation again bc the art of meaningful engaging are going extinct.

[@ladillalegos]

What a video thank you so much

[@DrBillHaberman]

Acts 2:37 “When” they heard this they were pricked in the heart.

[@nikd53]

Looks like you b-Leighton-tly stumped them! Sorry if you've heard that one a million times haha

[@edwardfriedrich411]

Ya! White uses a lot of slight of hand! With the word of God!! All he cares about is Winning an Argument! Sorry to be so blunt! He’s very arrogant .

[@boluwadekujero1717]

Ad hominem! You guys never tire?

[@edwardfriedrich411]

@@boluwadekujero1717 thanks! And I’m still learning

[@boluwadekujero1717]

@@edwardfriedrich411 We're all learning; that's not the point. We would like to learn from you and if possible, receive correction. Why has none of you deemed it fit to offer your answer to the question? You all seem to have the time to comment to attack the person of Leighton but never time to give an answer. The video clip showed JW doing exactly the same, running circles round the issue until he completely avoided it. You don't call him out for such dishonesty but rather join him to attack Leighton, claiming he is just about winning argument. If Leighton is about winning an argument, what about Joel? How do you explain Joel asking JW the question? Is it not because it is a valid question that remains unanswered that he chose to ask James to give him his take? Why didn't JW clear it up for him? Why did he still have to make it about Leighton and eventually avoid answering? That's the real issue here and not Leighton.

[@edwardfriedrich411]

@@boluwadekujero1717 will I thank you for being blunt! To give you a little history about me, hopping you might understand where I’m coming from. I don’t have any degrees in Bible college! No schooling at all! Which disqualify me in any apologist debate! But feed on the word! Daily! And the lord has me in Proverbs! A lot, in fact about 3 to4yrs now. its an amazing book! It bounces back and forth with the new and Old Testament. The lord has delivered me from narcissistic abuse! On a high end spiritual level! Where there was no way I could’ve gotten free! It was the work of God only! Psychology couldn’t work at all. So When I 1st started watching these debates on Calvinism and caught one with Leighton! And watch White rebuttal! It triggered me with a lot of red flakes ! Not only White! But all in the same league with him! So I relate on that Calvinism as narcissism! This might not answer your question, but I just wanted to share to you

[@jimfinch4706]

@@boluwadekujero1717 yes , every time my car needs one.

[@AnathemaMysticalcel]

One of the things I have noticed when interacting with anyone about scripture, is that I am the one that is not understanding it. "That's not what the text is saying" "that's not what it means". But I also notice that I am the only one in the discussion that has quoted any scripture, and have made my point from the OT, Gospels, and NT a trifecta if you will. And I am the ignorant person who just doesnt understand. And if by any chance anyone has quoted scripture back, I ask, "ok we have both just made out point using scriptures. Why do yours beat mine?" Still haven't received an answer for that one.

[@princeamoakwa4057]

24:50 to 24:55 illuminates the entire argument in this video. It is ridiculous to think faith comes after you are regenerated or baptized into Christ. This Colossians argument is so subtle and clever. It’s unassuming. God bless you, Dr. Flowers.