Can Police Trespass? Curtilage vs. Open Fields

[@leftovertech]

Yes, an officer can do a "knock and talk" under color of what I call "Girl Scout rights". The officer has the same right to approach the front door and knock to request a conversation as a Girl Scout has to try to sell cookies, barring signage (e.g. "no trespassing", "no soliciting") or barriers (fence, gate, etc). There is a kind of revocable implied license to approach and ask. Of course, that REVOCABLE part is important. The moment the resident says "leave", you and the Girl Scout are trespassing. Just my opinion, of course.

[@tacticalattorney]

Right on point.

[@mrrogers4591]

@@tacticalattorney Many officers will not leave based on they are investigating.

[@Walter-ol3mb]

A😊😊has 😊

[@JesusChurchFamily]

@@mrrogers4591: Then call Sheriff to report "armed trespassers claiming to be govt and refusing to leave my property"

[@frankbeardsley2941]

Our Sheriff's had two firearms, locked and loaded, pointed at their clown car when they trespassed on our property. They'd be the last people we'd call - but we do have an excavator half a mile away.

[@universetechnology9610]

Thank you so much for explaining everything with so much details.

[@tacticalattorney]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@mikhaelis]

The problem is you're trying to train a group of people on the wall when all they care about are ways around the law. If these cops had to use a drone than they are already outside the law because that is not Plainview. I want hundred percent guarantee you every cop and watch his video now thinks they can walk into any open field that they want bypassing no trespassing signs and fences because they're not decorative, as long as they can concoct some reason that they should be there.

[@donmulder8061]

They already do in most rural areas. Especially the DNR, wildlife, Conservation cops. As wrong as it is. They've been caught placing covert trail cams on private property. Without repercussions. Because of this "open fields" bs.

[@user-ps4oz7zc3c]

👍very helpful thanks

[@donmulder8061]

Rural subdivisions both with and without HOAs but where lots have some acreage -- that's a new and interesting battleground. We have lots ranging from one to 27 acres where I live in Loudoun County, Va, with no HOA but a few covenants. Where does the curtilage end and begin on 3.7 acres with a wooded intermittent streambed on it, that opens up at a county culvert by the road with a county easement around that pipe? The issue is people from closer in to DC moving out here with no real respect for property rights and county government that is always looking for excuses to stomp on private property rights. We have new adjacent property owners (I cant call these psychos neighbors) who have reinvented our subdivision plat in order to try to take over our wooded stream. They've called the county code folks, the county stormwater folks, and one day they'll call the sheriff on me for nothing. Putting up a board fence. Or inspecting my fence line. Or "not having kids but owning woods." I have had to resort to wearing a body cam outside just to collect negative evidence to protect myself. What will I do when I see the sheriff out there or I get swatted or something. People have no respect for private property rights. The county has already told me the neighbors are complaining and I need to get them to stop. Although I have violated no ordinances or covenants. If you own 3 to 5 acres, that limited respect for private property dwindles and totally evaporates if you've kept your boundary edges wild and wooded for the sake of aesthetics, wildlife or privacy. I sometimes feel like I'm John Dutton of Yellowstone Ranch on my little 3 acre lot. I feel like I own no land at all. Except for my "curtilage." Which I guess is my front porch and parking pad next to the garage.

[@JamesMiller-ce1df]

Question 1. Are law enforcement officers required to answer the resident when asked the purpose of intruding into private property open fields? Question 2. Do no trespassing signs impose any restriction to law enforcement's intrusions under the open field doctrine?

[@tacticalattorney]

Thanks for the question, this comes up a lot. Generally speaking there is no federal precedent that requires LEOs to identify and no trespassing signs are irrelevant to an open fields analysis. Various states own laws and agency policy however may be different. You would need to check your states specific laws.

[@JamesMiller-ce1df]

Thanks for taking the time.

[@RyansCuts]

Thanks for the videos! If time permits, would you be able to break down Carroll, Gant, and Michigan V long? How they are similar/different? Maybe some practical examples? Any help would be awesome. Thanks

[@tacticalattorney]

Those are all big cases with big time 4th Amendment implications. I will certainly add them to the list of future topics. Thanks for watching and commenting, much appreciated.

[@cydrych]

A Tennessee court just basically overturned the open fields infringement. Finally.

[@burlosborne3647]

I, hope the LEO know and understand "Open field - Plan view" and Curtilage. LEO can enter the Curtilage under lawful entirety and can not trespassed. What about unman flying vehicles and Airspace

[@vermontmike9800]

Question, was the point ever raised whether or not a secondary structure gets its own curtilage? Also, what if the land owner had used “POSTED” signs around the property?

[@tacticalattorney]

Generally secondary structures and commercial buildings do not have curtilage. If a shed or barn were within a common enclosure, close to the house in a well maintained area it would however be within the curtilage. Curtilage protections are associated with the privacy of the house. Under federal law, even no trespassing signs would not make it unlawful for an officer to be in an open field. They could however revoke the implied license for entering the areas of the curtilage "open to the public" sucknas a driveway and front porch.

[@haggeoromero]

You can spend days online watching videos of cops not caring about any of these laws, they understand that they will probably not get in any trouble so why not put that foot in the door because the homeowner won’t identify themselves. The thing to do is to never open the door to the police who show up for a knock and talk and they don’t have a warrant.

[@wdtaut5650]

2:23 "...wandering around in areas they're not supposed to be in because they don't know, they don't understand this concept." How about they also don't give a royal sh**. If the homeowner/resident informs them of the laws of curtilage, what are the chances the cops apologize and leave? About the same chance you will defend the homeowner for free when the cops arrest him for "obstruction", or whatever the BS charge of the week is. 7:12 "States are free to...give extra rights." Spoken as a cop/prosecutor. Governments ('states') don't "give" rights. Rights are inherent, given to us by our Creator. States (the government) can only restrict rights. Some governments restrict rights less than others, but none of them "give" rights.

[@travissollars5278]

While occupying the “open field” for legitimate law enforcement purpose. If Mr. Dunn happened to notice the officers on his property and asks them to leave, I assume they are required to leave immediately?

[@tacticalattorney]

The answer will be heavily dependent on your state's law. Many states give broader protections under their own state's constitution than its federal counterpart. Under a purely 4th Amendment analysis, I don't believe it would matter. Federal case law explains that a law enforcement officer with a legitimate law enforcement purpose may trespass in open fields even if no trespassing signs are posted. Practically speaking, I believe the best practice of law enforcement would be to leave and seek a warrant rather than risk a potential confrontation with a land owner in their own property.

[@MaydayAggro]

@@tacticalattorney What is "a legitimate law enforcement purpose"? Preventing drug distribution is "legitimate," but it doesn't allow cops to go anywhere they want searching for drugs.

[@mikezupancic2182]

If a landowner says you need to leave, they've asserted their rights and the police should leave. Having an open field doesn't abolish a property owners right to trespass people from the property and an officer gets no special rights than an ordinary citizen gets.

[@davidbaldwin1018]

@@mikezupancic2182 I would agree with you. Cops cannot be in my hay field preventing me from mowing it while they are digging shallow graves looking for evidence. They need a warrant to do anything on my property, and that prevents fishing expeditions.

[@rickbruceroche2038]

Question, since there were numerous fences crossed. What if properly posted “Private Property, No Trespassing” had been on the fence line?

[@commentsedited]

Any door area can be approached by the officers

[@williamzander4732]

Plain view in Kansas is different State of Kansas vs Fisher and your in the tenth circuit like Kansas.

[@aa_battery7]

Would the decision made in California v. Greenwood apply if the garbage was on curtilage? And if so, would a lawful purpose to be on property justify a search then on garbage? Or could officers simply search any garbage, even if on curtilage? Something I was debating with professor, would love to hear your thoughts

[@tacticalattorney]

I would have to take a look at Greenwood again but I believe Greenwood involved trash picked up by the garbage man outside of the curtilage. Entry into the curtilage to look at the garbage would be similar to Collins v. Virginia and would likely be unlawful absent a warrant or exception. I also think the argument can be made that people retain the reasonable expectation of privacy in trash while it is still within the curtilage. Hope this helps. Thanks!

[@JesusChurchFamily]

@@tacticalattorney : I expect privacy of my personal property including my trash toter, period. No Girl Scout nor delivery person nor law officer without a warrant should be looking in my property. Bad enough the hideous pitbulls walkers smell it up by dumping their stinking poop-bags in it after truck pickup. It's not public property.

[@cherinohjalloh2379]

So what about apartment parking lots

[@tacticalattorney]

The parking lot is likely private property, but shared amongst the tenants. Therefore in most situations it would likely not be considered curtilage. Check out Collins v. Virginia.

[@jmom687]

What about Curtilage on ground floor apartments that are high gated court yards ? Or a gap through the fence ? Is that a search

[@tacticalattorney]

Great question. If there is private property associated with the residence, however small, I believe it would still be considered curtilage although the implied license discussed in Jardines would still allow the officers access to the door. Collins v. Virginia dealt with what appeared to be a very small curtilage.

[@jmom687]

What about as you said the municipal police standing at a sidewalk no fence can look its plain view...but if there was a fence say 9ft high but a gap down the bottom. Is is unlawful to bend down and peek through that bottom.part of the fence seeking out evidence ? And wouldn't that not be inadvertence

[@user-yt4lo1qe7y]

To my knowledge if a Supreme Court case rules on a constitutional issue (4th amendment) I'd think would be a constitutional issue. States have to follow that ruling. States can add more protections to the ruling but not take away or interpret them their way. So all states have to follow Dunn?? Am I missing something or did you state check your state laws on if you have to follow Dunn? States have to follow U.S. Supreme Court decisions if a matter of federal law, but only USSC, not other fed court decisions.

[@rickbruceroche2038]

All States must follow Federal law. However, States MAY give The People more rights. For example, in this type of case, They might specify placement of “No Trespassing” which, if followed, place the entire enclosed area under 4th Amendment protection.

[@Hazel66781]

If someone is very intoxicated on their porch and the porch is approximately 30 feet from the roadway and has no fence, can an officer arrest that subject for public intoxication?

[@tacticalattorney]

No, the porch in your hypo is private property.

[@eilenekellogg-ki2br]

If cops understand the home law then why are they breaking in and searching without a warrant.

[@mikefowler301]

Because they are usually ignorant of the law, And yes it's true. Just ask one what Curtilage is. LOL

[@EvieTighti3]

Audit the audit and lackluster are better references

[@5050johnsmith]

Well you sorta got it wrong on the open fields doctorin.if thiers trees its a wood k and not a open field..then it has to be anmbsent of citys and towns in the area.

[@commentsedited]

Its that part of a chicken leg that is soft and crunchy and that goes to the dogs. ❤

[@donaldmarwitz2046]

If officers do not know this by the time thry get out in thecfield, that flearly means theyvdid not go to collage and get a proper , at a minimum 2 year degree, but 3 years is prefered, now all law enforment should go to school preor and fet a Criminal Justice Degree at a accredited good schooling, there are quite a few good technical schools that teach this and a few other standard course degrees. All in all about $40k or a but less for the education that properly teaches all this.

[@aliciareeves7188]

Reeves v. churchich Ut Ct of appeals

[@justliberty4072]

In rural/suburban areas that I'm familiar with, almost no properties have fences, unless they have animals.

[@Warmachine0413]

Apartment hallways?

[@tacticalattorney]

Great question. I have found no federal law on point but check out this case out of Georgia's Court of Appeals finding a reasonable expectation of privacy in exterior apartment doors. www.llrmi.com/articles/legal_updates/2023_state_v_arroyo/ Thanks for the great question.

[@danf6975]

Every officer should be forced to watch this video at least once a quarter. It is by far one of the two biggest problems with lack of knowledge all across the country. Officers understanding of constitutional rights have been lacking and getting worse over the years.

[@tacticalattorney]

Totally agree. Thanks.

[@mlctallahassee]

In a knock and talk, when an occupant of a home opens the door, can you put your foot inside the home to prevent the occupant from closing the door? (without a warrant, consent and/or exigent circumstances)

[@tacticalattorney]

No. Putting the foot in the door is considered an entry into the home invoking 4th Amendment protections. Its ok for an officer to knock and talk but without consent or some exigent circumstance, the occupant is free to terminate the encounter whenever they want, any entry however slight, or even preventing the home owner from returning to the house or ordering them out would require legal justification. Great question, I get this one a lot. Thanks!

[@kentlbrown5810]

@@tacticalattorneyobviously officers ignore this daily. They will almost always block a door with a foot and ignore all demands by the citizens to leave the home and curtiledge. Will you address these types of blatant Officer actions with a castle doctrine or a stand-your-ground right or even trying to force the door shut and pushing the officer’s foot with the door.

[@tacticalattorney]

@@kentlbrown5810 I anticipate doing a video in the future covering warrantless home entry, i.e. consent or exigent circumstances (Brigham City v. Stuart)

[@vermontmike9800]

Don’t ever open the door for police unless you have a storm/screen door that is lockable.

[@francesthieme3943]

SCOTUS has ruled that the threshold requires a warrant. However they're going to claim that they didn't go past threshold. Just know that placing foot in door becomes a seizure as you are NOT permitted to go close door and go about your day. There is a court case that mentions this aspect. I say sit on floor, film the cops, ask them to leave, invoke the 5th and watch the clock. Then contact a good attorney and sue the department for unlawful seizure.

[@mikefowler301]

That is correct! Scotus has ruled on that. If it's illegal to be a peeping tom (and it is) then the same laws apply to police.

[@gfy2979]

Ah don't worry about it it's just another thing jackbooted lizards will like to trample over. There are no rules or laws for those above it.

[@russthompson2081]

You’re wasting time as cops only care about violating rights

[@heroesandzeros7802]

What good is any of these cases when cops are trained and paid to lie, violate rights and commit crimes? They almost always get qualified immunity, even for murder, attempted murder, arson, forcible evictions, bomb threats, and other crimes. The local judges go along with them.

[@danielmoulton4117]

I have no doubt the open fields doctrine would shrink and curtilage expand if the peoles roles were reversed and it were the cops ground being trespassed on. The more citizens learn about this, the more enraged they become. Law enforcement needs to learn respect or lose the little respect they still have. LEAVE ME ALONE.

[@30roundclip44]

You talk about the facts ,but you want to interpret the law as you see fit. No.