Can the Rolex 1908 be Successful?

[@kojiattwood]

Frankly, I foresee the same problems they had with the Cellini; since they had no models in stainless steel, they had basically overcharge for what it was (and I think the Cellini moonphase is gorgeous). As much as I like the design, the dial appears flat in photos, and as you rightfully point out, at the 22k price point for the 1908, there are so many other better options currently (and certainly in the pre-owned market). I'll be curious to judge the finishing (both the case/dial and movement) when I get a chance to see it in person, but I certainly don't see it anywhere near the quality of the contenders you mentioned in your video--great analysis!

[@derosa1989]

Is the market for a 1908 really the competition from "the holy trinity" brands? I would have figured the actual market is existing Rolex customers, which outnumber the "high horology" customers by probably 100 to 1. My take is that Rolex is thinking if they can get a very small number of Rolex sports watch owners to recognize they should own a gold watch, they'll sell enough 1908's.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

A good question. Given the price and design I suspect they may want a slice of that market. Priced competitively with them. But definitely better name recognition than the other brands when it comes to the public writ large. The main thing is does the general public even really care for dress watches?

[@derosa1989]

@@WatcheswithDennis Cartier is on fire. So someone is buying dress watches. I think JLC has dropped another few spots on the top brand list report for 2022. Most luxury brands are trying to replicate Rolex's success in sportier watches (even VC and AP are pushing sports). It doesn't surprise me Rolex thinks they can sell some gold watches on a strap, against Cartier, or just the Rolex customer who bought a Sub in their 20's and now are getting married or career milestones.

[@thegorn]

More like, "so you want a Daytona? If you get a 1908.... then..." *wink wink*

[@JinKee]

The Cellini are finally collectors items.

[@robertlevy4720]

This is my new grail watch. If Patek and A. Lange & Sohne had a baby, this would be it. I think Rolex nailed it with this. With all due respect you maybe overthinking the marketing strategy. Two of the 3 trinity comparisons were manual winds, in my opinion, this is not a good comparison. Manual winds are a different market than what we are looking at with this new Rolex. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is the only Rolex that has ever had a display case back. And it is so beautiful! The price is not insane for a precious metal Rolex with a never before display caseback.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Some, but not all, Rolex Cellini models were equipped with a display caseback. And the new platinum Daytona, released at the same time as this 1908, has a display caseback as well.

[@davidbrown9947]

I wet myself with excitement when I saw this. I am undecided if it will be hugely popular or not, I hope its the latter, so I can get mine quickly. WoS in my local AD in the UK says it will probably do well , but not blow up. I see it going up against the ALange Sohne, Calatrava, but at least £10000 cheaper. That aside it looks so much better than the ones you have mentioned...

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yes, part of the complexity is the interplay isn't just against the retail pricing of the competitors but what the used markets may do and grey markets trying to clear out unsold product. I *think* the latter is not a big component of the examples I named, but JLC comes to mind as offering dress watches (outside the Reverso line and more like this) that struggle to sell and tend to be available with significant discount. So, it's all guessing by me of course until we see the market reaction. I agree with you though that Rolex has their own look to this style. It feels inspired by the Calatrava (as many watches are) but is its own thing. If that aesthetic resonates well with buyers it could be a strong performer just off looks. Reactions I've seen seem mixed, but I've seen that same reaction to all these example dress watches (when they are this simple it's pretty easy to sort though and figure out which version is one's personal favorite).

[@davidbrown9947]

@@WatcheswithDennis Interesting analysis , most of which I with. I just see it well priced with its like. for like peers?? I have been looking at JLC equivalents, a brand which I love without qualification. Some of the recent releases are stunning. I see this Rolex as. equal to JLC ULTRA thin, but less expensive by about £3000. How do you think it compares? Did you say the JLC model, doesn't sell well? That surprises me WoS, are not and are unable to discount JLC by a penny. JLC owned boutiques don't discount either. Look forward to your thoughts. I have liked and subscribed, great work so far.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

@@davidbrown9947 the JLC Master series is generally discussed as an underrated line of watches. I don't have hard numbers to know how well it does or doesn't sell, but we see them grey market a lot. Jomashop (a big grey market online source in the U.S.) currently has about 10 Ultra Thin models ranging 15% to 38% under retail. Personally, I think the Ultra Thins are very handsome and I prefer the dial look over the Rolex. Very similar sizing... thickness can be the same to smaller for the Ultra Thins depending on the model I have looked at. And JLC does offer steel options which of course means more affordability if desired.

[@btmontres1423]

Great evaluation and analysis of 1908 vs the marketplace. Pricing seems like the Crown is trying to make this it’s own thing not trying to be a holy trinity rival since the pricing is off south, and there’s not enough of a strong design identity like Calatrava or Patrimony or Lange.

[@seaweed719]

At this price point I’d rather get a PP calatrava, which is way more prestigious in sense of historical and horological perspectives, or a Breguet and Moser if I want an interesting twist to the dial (guilloche and fume dial).

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Breguet's Classique 5140 could have been an interesting one for me to have thrown into the comparison. It's slightly off-centered small seconds does cause it to look notably different than these (along with the dial work) but price-wise it's a good competitor at $21,000 MSRP. WatchCharts doesn't seem to have pricing data on that model but I've seen similar ones trading used under $13,000.

[@cedarcanoe]

Silicone balance spring instead of parachrome. I am puzzled ..(like I am when looking at the new 36mm dials. I think and hope that dress watches will see a revival one day.

[@kojiattwood]

Yes, another excellent point!

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I thought I saw an article that discussed silicone as being more forgiving if the amplitude changed, or something akin to that. Oh, found it: quillandpad.com/2018/02/15/silicon-stay-rolex-watch-movements/

[@chrisrussell63]

I have a feeling that Rolex uses a silicon hairspring in the 1908 largely because it takes up less vertical space than their Breguet overcoil, which is two layers high. They mention that the 7140 is 'thinner by a third' than their other movements. Dress watches want to be thin.

[@sananselmospacescienceodys7308]

Of all four watches I liked the Rolex best.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

They deserve full credit for having their own look within this style of watch, and I think they clearly put design thought into their approach. As I noted in the video, I can definitely see people being drawn to this one the most visually.

[@brandheadlights]

Thank you for sharing your comparison and your breakdown on how the New Rolex dress line up stacks up against the competition.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Thanks, when I saw the watch I immediately thought of the Calatrava and made a mental note to go and pull a few similar designs to look at. It'd have been cleaner if the Rolex had been a manual watch (Lange has handwind Saxonia models too) so I could have had an even more apples-to-apples scenario but when it comes to dress watches I think that might be a less critical aspect to a lot of potential buyers anyway.

[@obesetuna3164]

Those modern stats are somewhat shocking Dennis. I had always imagined that 36mm or even less was the desired size for a premium dress watch. Of course, I would never turn down an el cheapo Cellini, or for that matter, a bargain basement 1908. But as you state, there is Patek to consider, Vacheron, and even Breguet to name but a few.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I wish I'd taken a look at Breguet. I thought AP still had a model like this and when they didn't I just went down to three alternatives but I did originally plan on four. They don't currently have a watch that really looks the same but the Classique 5140 is close with its slightly offset small seconds feature ($21,000 retail too so right there on pricing). But yeah, by-and-large the dress watches I've seen are above 36mm in size now. Size inflation even impacted that segment. Though the Patrimony is up there, getting into that Portuguese "huge" dress watch space. I rarely see any over 40mm.

[@obesetuna3164]

@@WatcheswithDennis As a member of the Trinity, the absence of AP seems strange. Either way, in this segment at least, Rolex has some stiff competition.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

They used to. Their Jules Audemars collection I felt had the Calatrava-style watches, but they've pulled that now. CODE 11.59 is where their dress watches are but nothing really in this configuration (aside from a minute repeater I saw). They do have some time only models in the line, though most are central seconds and feature a more modern look to what the 1908 is going for so I ruled them out.

[@kojiattwood]

@@WatcheswithDennis Yes, the sadly discontinued Jules Audemars has some absolutely wonderful pieces, but aren't popular whatsoever.

[@JinKee]

8:17 rolex makes you buy more expensive watches to get the steel because steel sports watches have the highest profit to flip on the secondary market. They keep it that way by only selling steel to trusted customers who have no need to flip.

[@lucky889s9]

I think market is getting put off by both rolex and used dealer antics... I myself stop looking at rolex since they trying to go exclusive and limited

[@TheGaztela]

Muy bonito. Perfecto para envejecer con él con clase y sin pasar de moda

[@thegorn]

The only people who will be buying this are those who want to kiss the ring of their AD by picking it up, in the hope that the AD will give them the call for a steel sports some time later - particularly a GMT pepsi or two-tone, or a Daytona. Then they'll offload this on the grey-market barely worn. That's how this gig works.

[@andreasjung3612]

you are right it could've been Rolex strategy here. however 22k could be too much as an investment in building AD relation...

[@kewintaylor7056]

It’s beautiful,and classic…😮

[@MarkMphonoman]

Beuatiful watch, the 1908. I would love to own one, at 1/4 or 1/2 of the price. Just not worth more than that.

[@NPrez-cv4jn]

JLC Master ultra thin collection. Blancpain Leman Plus many others, just can’t see why someone would pick the 1908

[@majormccargo8930]

The Vacheron is the best option here, but keep in mind the Datejust and Day Date can be seen as dress watches so Rolex has arguably done well in dress watches for a long time.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yes, that's a good point. I've always struggled on how to treat bracelet watches in that regard. A lot of purists would argue they aren't true dress watches at all, but that's a slippery slope (as then you'll get some who would go so far as to claim any watch with a seconds hand disqualifies as a dress watch). Rolex I think lumps them in their "classic" breakdown (versus "professional" for their more tool-oriented products). But I would treat them as dress watches, especially the day-date, and agree with you that those are quite well regarded and pursued.

[@goldencalf5144]

Although the lines are blurred these days, I would argue that the Datejust is not a pure dress watch. If a watch has any functional feature that diminishes its elegance or form, then I believe it is no longer a pure dress watch. In the case of the Datejust, it would be the use of lume, cyclops date window and the chunky oyster case. Having said that, most people who buy it, use it specifically as a dress watch (including the president).

[@mr.perfume8357]

Those clearly are not dress watches.. Rolex knew it very well so they literally “studied” Patek 6119G to come out of this 1908G. They knew they need to have a solid dress watch line in order to challenge Patek Philippe…

[@matthewdavis8199]

I love dress watches and could care less about value retention. Manual wind or possibly micro rotor movement would be my preference. A good amount of hand finishing is a must. A rose gold option would be a plus. The 1908 is attractive, but a pass for me personally.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I agree about manual wind; I like dress watches thin and don't normally wear them enough days in a row for it to be a big deal (not that winding usually is much of an issue on a watch). I think Lange is the best bang for the buck on hand finishing for the second-hand price of those I listed. Glashütte Original probably the best value overall for some hand finishing but I'm not sure what all their rose gold options are (I've only ever really looked at their steel watches).

[@matthewdavis8199]

@@WatcheswithDennis once upon a time I owned a Lange 1. An amazing watch. I've owned seven GO's and they were all an excellent value. I also love Chopard's LUC dress watches, and pre-owned they are increible value for money. Derivatives of their 1.96 movement are thin and beautiful, and for me check a lot of boxes.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

@@matthewdavis8199 I never looked at the LUC watches until this year. That new 1860, oh what a looker that one is.

[@matthewdavis8199]

@@WatcheswithDennis the 1860 is my favorite!

[@CHASI146]

Great thoughts. I think Rolex could have made the dial a little bit sportier to get a better traction. I see a lot of dial space is empty and that shows something is missing and could be improved which they might come up with next time. I am waiting for that time and will not go for this watch :)

[@stevesmith7997]

First class revue !

[@3000waterman]

Good overview. Tasteful gold dress watches appeal to a very different market than do steel sports watches. The 1908 is gorgeous, but high horology it ain't. For that RT price you'd expect a beautiful alligator deployant strap to be included. Having investigated the gold dress watch field exhaustively last year, my decision was finally for a Breguet. The Breguet is bloody serious high horology with finishing that beggars belief, and so it's generally in a higher price bracket than the other brands mentioned. But - I was able to buy a nearly new (seemingly unworn) £40K Breguet 5707 for under £20K, including import duty and VAT. The 1908 cannot compete with that sort of quality and value. Aspirants and arrivistes seek Rolex, but those understand class, wear classier pieces

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Ah Breguet, always impressed with their guilloché work. Never owned one. I am a fan of a prior iteration of the Marine.

[@3000waterman]

@@WatcheswithDennis I agree - the Marine is a good watch. Alas, I believe it is made by Tissot and badged Breguet. Swatch Group matters.

[@michaelbradley6488]

I prefer the Lange. I love Vacheron but the patrimony is not my favorite. I think this is a nice looking Rolex.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yeah something about the Vacheron makes it my least favorite of these. I think it is the hands.

[@johnteill_]

It's hard for me to argue once your bring up the car facts like that 😅...I'm just a guy that's ALWAYS wanted a rolex, and I'd like it with a leather strap. Are you saying that I'm going to regret it

[@WatcheswithDennis]

No, if you like the looks and the specifications then you will probably enjoy the watch. Rolex makes robust watches. These other watches are their chief dress watch competition in this style but if you favor the Rolex brand none of these will scratch that itch.

[@johnteill_]

@Watches with Dennis I'm very "green" when it comes to watches, but I've busted my butt off and theirs something about that brand recognition that I can't shake...thank you for responding 👍

[@WatcheswithDennis]

@@johnteill_ I get it. My first luxury watch was a Rolex and I still own it.

[@sarfaraz185]

Imagine somewhere in future Rolex 1906 comes with a perpetual calendar man that will so cool

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I would like to see Rolex do more in complications rather than focusing on making precious metal versions of their professional watches. Given how vertically integrated they are I would imagine this could happen whenever they decide there is a reason to do so.

[@SuperMAYUSAMA]

is it waterproof? I don't buy anything I can't swim with...

[@WatcheswithDennis]

It's 50 meters water resistant, so it would classify as shower proof but not swim proof.

[@amir-.1977]

Excellent, unbiased reporting.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Very kind of you to say. I think the watch is attractive, I'm just really unsure of the Rolex play here and if it can do any better than the Cellini did.

[@stevenlui8105]

Great video clip! I’ve already owned a PP 6119G so won’t consider 1908 at all.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I really like the 6119G dial, my favorite out of all the examples I listed.

[@GoonieGooGoo910]

Missing JLC Master Ultra Thin. I think the 1908 is priced right. I do not like the Vacheron Patrimony. Though, I think I would prefer the Chopard L.U.C. 1860.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yes, on retrospect I wish I had included the JLC in the mix. I really like the look of the new 1860 though being steel I wasn't inclined to throw it into the comparison mix.

[@Jamesnebula]

I'm confused about the difference between a dress watch and a business watch if you're wearing an expensive suit and you're in business I would say the Rolex is far more appealing. Just for practical purposes actually a watch you put on your wrist and then that's your watch for the next many years. I don't think anyone can live with a manual wind 24/7 I mean it could put you in trouble because you are bound to forget.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Definitions are pretty fluid since these classifications did not exist until relatively recently. I never have really heard a watch classified as business before, as an example, just things like dress, sport, everyday but there are so many possible classifications. It really just comes down to personal preference. I favor dress watches with a suit in formal settings because they are subtle but if it was a regular suit day I would think nothing of throwing on the Rolex. Manual wind as a concern is interesting. I have forgotten to wind before but if the watch has a long power reserve that may not be a big issue. Even better if it has a power reserve indicator to remind you (lots of dress watches do not of course, but others like the Lange 1 have it as a core part of the design).

[@Nefville]

The dials let this watch down. They're flat, boring, and they somehow remind me of a Tudor Ranger. They're also very Germanic. Would have preferred enamel or guilloche, something with the character to match the watch. Also wish they kept the screw down crown of the Cellini to provide the confidence and reassurance to *help bridge the gap from Rolex sport watch to Rolex dress watch. Its a good base but it leaves me wanting more. I hope we get it.

[@bbrebozo6417]

Renaming the Cellini with a number isn’t going to change it. Boring dress watch destined to become wall art at the ADs.

[@thegorn]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. A Cellini by any other name would look as boring.... and it does.

[@billeib427]

Its about time they are going back to time pieces rather than "bricks on a wrist."

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I still expect this will be a relatively low amount of their overall production. But they did seem to slim this up by 2-3 millimeters from what I recall in thickness on the Cellini were which is an impressive improvement.

[@masonalexander7056]

I like the 1908 a lot better than the Cellini. The display case back is a huge step for Rolex and was necessary for Rolex to play in this sandbox. The price point is reasonable and positions it well against the Patel. And that is the competition. Most (certainly not all) of the people who choose the 1908 are not going to consider VC, Lange, or JLC. They are going to be more comfortable spending that much money on a Rolex or a Patek.❤

[@annkennedy1831]

As a Rolex President owner, I was extremely disappointed in the trash from Rolex. Even Timex would have been ashamed of the emoji wheels! At least the 1908 has some potential.

[@williamjacobs9065]

The Rolex 1908 is stunning and will do just fine; not so sure about those puzzle emoji watches unless you don't care what the day or date is.

[@tomthompson7400]

Its a pretty watch ,,, at half the price it would fly off the shelves .

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I think it would be better positioned there (more competition with JLC than Vacheron). But I think Rolex feels their name recognition means they should compete at that higher tier.

[@johnlockhart1272]

Love the watch, The only thing stopping me is the hour hand.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

My problem is actually that the minute hand wasn't done in the same fashion. If the goal is to do Breguet hands, then I say do both. I think it stands out more in a strange way to see it like this.

[@johnlockhart1272]

@@WatcheswithDennis I agree do both. It seems like an easy enough fix. Other than that its a beautiful dial.

[@Mahatma618]

The 1908 was the stand out for me,but I am in now way able to purchase any of these

[@WatcheswithDennis]

If it isn't a hot seller you might be able to find them discounted eventually through grey dealers or an AD could offer discounting (depends how much you'd want it to go down in price of course). Precious metal dress watches often can be had for a lot less, though that "lot less" does tend to run higher than steel still so it's all relative. Maybe Rolex will make a steel version over time. I could see that doing well.

[@dunderhay9169]

Of those 4 I would choose the A Lange , nicest dial and hands, sensible size. I just don't get why anyone would buy any product they don't want so they can be allowed to buy what they do. That is crazy, why don't they just walk away?

[@WatcheswithDennis]

It's not really a view I can get behind so I'm not sure why anyone does it. Maybe, if they think they get their foot in, it'll be savings in the long run versus buying grey (like if they want to buy a bunch of watches over time from the same brand)? Hard to say of course.

[@tiempodesobrahn]

been there done that! talking about a family reunion cellini never had a place in the rolex gang, same is most likely to happen with this new overpriced 1908 cousin from afar… I’d rather buy a 36mm daydate and put it on a leather strap just like they used to come 40 years ago, in fact I still have a brand new allegator strap never used from my father’s 18038 too bad the watch got stolen

[@JozeppiK]

I like it, I decided to buy it.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Enjoy!

[@arqjavierobregon]

Rolex will only be successful with no match on the Daytona, GMT’s, Submariner, Explorer and yacht master models only. Other models like that one there are more prestigious brands with similar looking models.

[@samon_kurowassan]

No, I strongly disagree ✌️ You are looking at this as a WIS. The majority of the population, when they have the money, they go straight to Rolex 😂 They don't know the Holy Trinity to compare it with The reason Cellini has failed is because it was weird, it doesn't look like a typical dress watch so it didn't satisfy the expectations of a dress watch buyer. Rolex dress watch looks normal for the 1st time 😊

[@WatcheswithDennis]

You make a good point on the branding. Though I didn't think all the Cellini models looked weird, most were fairly boring (aka typical dress designs). The Prince I remember was weird, But, that said, I never explored that catalog in depth. I could be underestimating the Rolex name in the dress space. I still am not entirely sure why they are doing it at all though, unless they worry about not being diversified enough (too much reliance on the oyster case).

[@samon_kurowassan]

@@WatcheswithDennis I feel like they made a halo watch in the form of open caseback Platona, however, a halo is inherently high price limited production so it isn't going to pay for the R&D cost. So they need a volume seller in the form of 1908 that expands their market to dress. I think they are going a little upmarket and position themselves just below the Trinity so they made a dress watch. The Pandemic showed that people are a little more willing to spend on watches.

[@3000waterman]

Correct. The other brands mentioned make better/finer watches (they just do) but for the majority of the population Rolex is the ONLY top prestige maker they've heard about. My Rolex Explorer has been my daily beater for twenty years, and it's often commented upon, in a "Wow! Rolex!" sort of way. I don't think I've ever had a comment on my magnificent gold Breguet, even though it's worth five times as much as the Rolex, and ten times as beautiful. But I own and enjoy for me, not to court others' approval. All that said, I much prefer the 1908 design to the other models shown.

[@mdscalper]

Priced it at 14-16K and it will fly off shelf

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I agree, an 18kt gold watch, new and of this size, for that price range would practically be a bargain.

[@HD-Tech]

Does it matter if you can't get one anyway?

[@WatcheswithDennis]

A fair point but if it is like the Cellini line this one might sit in stock.

[@nathanmagnuson2589]

this is going to fail like Cellini

[@micaljimenez7381]

Too expensive and not enough rolex for having big sucess,for the price the choice is big,breguet,patek calatrava,vacheron,glashust,jaeger,and a lot of dressy watch in secondary market for 50% less expensive

[@ewhyte8059]

Rolex are so out of their depth with this time piece. The level of denial at the helm is off the charts. If they had charged 21K for platinum.And between 13and 15 K for the white/yellow gold pieces they would’ve stood a fighting chance in the long run. They have basically priced themselves out of the marketplace.

[@irvinglee9125]

The 1908 appears to be a gorgeous watch with a display caseback. I think it's a winner

[@therealJohnSmith]

Crazy idea........ stop making 39mm dress watches. Its really that simple. 37mm max would be great. The new Cellinis are too big.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Rolex seems, to me, to still favor leaning towards larger sizes (last year's 36mm Explorer release aside, it seems like almost everything got slightly bigger lately, at least on paper). I guess the 1908 is still smaller than the VC Patrimony at least.

[@mdleweight]

NO. But then I said Oprah would fail too!

[@keywestjoe1]

I love my Breitling Transocean!!!

[@lucky889s9]

It's a meh. Rolex wanna move up to dress segment is jus a gimmick. Stick to sport watch is their forte. Jaeger master ultra thin is better in every way.

[@jamesleung8679]

Simply overpriced !

[@JohnSmith-nk4vn]

As far as I'm concerned, that's max a $6k watch. For $27k there needs to be a pound of gold.

[@deezknuts07]

Likely go the same way as the cellini.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I concur. It looks nice but who buys it over a Calatrava, a Saxonia, a Patrimony, or any other dress watch in this style? I suppose those who only know Rolex and really want a dress watch but I just do not think this is the ideal market for them to bother with.

[@deezknuts07]

Completely agree on all points.