Can The Taken King Take on the Ruinous Powers of Chaos in Warhammer 40k?

The Taken and Chaos both rely on the fault of willpower to trick you into joining them. What happens when they clash?
(For legal reasons no Carmines were killed in the making of this video).
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[@Buster-McTunder]

Some clarity, I’ve seen many people correct me on where Oryx’s power to take came from which is correct it comes from the Winnower not the Witness. A couple of the sources I use for a lot of Destiny lore are not caught up with the current state of the universe and when I was looking into it the answer of where his powers came from were a lot more nebulous so I went with the Witness. I doubt I’ll ever get things 100% right, glad to see the corrections though it’s incredibly useful. I guess it’s time to start watching Byf 😂.

[@horrorfan117]

Easy mistake to make. For the longest time, it was thought the two were one and the same.

[@supernovavortex3069]

Those under Chaos's Control are tied to there god whether or not they are full chaos Spawn and also could you define what life is in the context of these 2 universes because deamons in 40k are made of soul energy so I think this conflicts with the idea they cant ascend. Also the idea of sword logic would literally feed khorne till the end of all conflicts

[@nathengriffiths-holland7038]

@@Buster-McTunder in your defence 90% of the lore says the darkness is what he spoke with and for a long time we believed that was the witness

[@Aj-py8en]

"The Winnower cannot choose what shape the Knife carves" The Winnower is not a being that interacts. It doesn't give powers to others, and it might not even exist as a conscious being. The Winnower IS the concept of reduction. The power to take IS the Winnower, because it's the ultimate and most pure form of reduction. Reducing the past present and future of a target until only a single possibility remains, reshaping their physical form into actual nothingness that the universe has to warp around to fill in the gap, and removing any sort of consciousness turning them into an extension of a higher being's will. The Winnower granted Oryx the power to take because it is the power to take. Taking something without it would just be the ability to transport things through space, time, and dimensions. "The Power to Move Worlds". But even with the Winnower it's still not complete. It's a neutral force with no intention to shape the universe itself, for that it needed the Witness. The First Knife. Something that can actually decide what things to cut away while taking it. Oryx transports them to the "taking dimension". There the Witness chooses what to cut away, and the Winnower does that actual cutting before its spat back out to reality. Oryx himself is strong enough to do that second part, but out of devotion to the deep/the voice in the darkness he chose not to. The Witness taught Akka the power to move worlds. Auryx killed Akka and learned that power from his corpse. Auryx used that power to commune with the Witness and after [this portion was redacted in the lore] Oryx emerged with the ability to create Taken.

[@beepbeep9967]

You should put the WH40K vs Vex

[@makootithebionicman3612]

"I have sustained my life in the gardens of Pestilence, and thus I have proved myself greater then Nurgle" "I have remained a constant in the mazes of Change, and thus I have proved myself greater then Tzeentch" "I have once again proved my sword is sharper, and in all things war proved myself greater then Khorne" "My desires are beyond Excessive, my ideal final shape cuts through Slaanesh like a knife" "and thus my final shape is made manifest, Aiat, and I have become the self sharpening knife who carved away existence"

[@samuelwhite8895]

sorry but khorn alone could take out oryx

[@juliane.mfarias9285]

@@samuelwhite8895 Yeah but Khorne ain't stepping out of the warp for that.

[@greenknightofwar7024]

@@samuelwhite8895that’s the thing he can’t kill oryx permanently, you can only beat oryx by proving you embody the sword logic more than he does.

[@renny_charmer8741]

​@@greenknightofwar7024 and you need to do it up his throne world. Which he controls.

[@yusefwebb9727]

​@@renny_charmer8741Which he control how reality works within.

[@eotwkdp]

Funny lore event Random hive fleet needs a planet to make base out of. Decides to fight catachan. About a few months later. A wizard writes that the planet itself knows sword logic.

[@acooldude2226]

*Catachan has now become a pilgrimage site for the Hive*

[@katamed5205]

A sharpening stone. If you cannot best the planet. You didn’t deserve to live to begin with. Eventually the Hive will simply attempt exterminatus. Because if you destroy the deadly planet. This proves you are stronger.

[@masterofthelyokianmonsters2886]

@@acooldude2226**head canon accepted**

[@thehale_]

The more Oryx takes, the less chaotic the universe becomes. If unable to beat the chaos gods, the Taken King would surely weaken all of them over time.

[@xaviergould8747]

Khorne does not care where the blood flows as long it does, also enterpy that's one of nergles domains now he's super charged so yea no

[@rythianlonghammer5263]

@@xaviergould8747 Nurgle has nothing to do with entropy, he gains power from decay and stagnation. Entropy is neither of those things.

[@jacyjohnson8636]

And sword logic who ever the hive kill they gain there strength orys being huve this would apply

[@xaviergould8747]

@@jacyjohnson8636 The only thing with that is they would have to completely destroy the demon which broke they had to completely absorb the demon which is the slight problem Let them mention the whole problem of tankley all demons being a fragment of the chaos God so kind of awkward I don't know if sword logic would work Also that's what he thought but I don't remember anything in the expansion where it's actually like absorbpeople

[@xaviergould8747]

@@rythianlonghammer5263 Dude it's literally his third fricking domain Also you do know stagnation and entropy are the same concept literally entropy is just a different way of saying stagnation

[@C4MG1RL]

The Witness didn't come up with or give Oryx the ability to Take. The Witness learned it first but they didn't teach Oryx. A lot of enemies you "kill" that are taken are actually just re-whisked into whatever dimension they're sent to, hence their weird slurped animation on death for some of them. Chaos vs the Taken vs the Vex would probably look like the D&D Blood War lol

[@richardnaffziger4618]

“The sweet nectar of Slaanesh was poison in my veins I excised it on my knife and tore its excess out least it become a blight.” “The death that Nurgle promised was lost in my throne and it’s life was cancerous as the sky, I devoured its pox as I do my tribute.” “The lies of Tzeentch were small and torn by my will, I could not be lost in its maze for am I not the first navigator the one who probed the deep for truth.” “I shattered the eightfold axe of Khorne on my blade, it knew only of blood and slaughter but refused the truth of the universe, that it had to prove it’s worth not simply kill for killings sake.” “I am the Navigator, The first, The King of shapes, I destroy these lies by cutting open the truth and making them lies to be told, they cannot escape the logic of the all knifed truth, their shape cannot break my knife, AIAT!!”

[@LamelScott]

This is honestly badass... a new tablet of ruin. I congratulate your new prophesy in darkness. It will be for it already is. AIAT!

[@NoVACorpsGaming]

Return Glorious or Die Forgotten 😤

[@outbreakperfected5704]

AIAT

[@thatkreigsman3421]

This shit go hard, AIAT!!!

[@dreadlord8628]

AIAT

[@v.rocky111]

Considering rhulk caused an entire nuclear war between a species on a planet from just his shinanigans, and can wipe out an entire fireteam in a second if he wanted too, he should be put in the 40k verse.

[@gamingoverlord8854]

He'd need an army to stand a chance in the long run

[@juliane.mfarias9285]

The Witness man...He is really dangerous.

[@lazyvoid7107]

No Rhulk was himself​@@gamingoverlord8854

[@lordpumpkinhead265]

Rhulk could throw hands with a lot of things within the Warhammer universe, but the problem is that he's effectively alone in his fight while there's endless hordes he has to contend with. Rhulk can take the fight as seriously as he wants, but eventually he will be whittled down by sheer attrition.

[@yusefwebb9727]

​@@lordpumpkinhead265Is main factor in losing is his arrogance

[@ButFirstHeLitItOnFire]

You know, Pre-Season of the witch Xivû Arath would have been an absurdly dangerous menace in a universe as violent as the Warhammer ones (Fantasy, Age of Sigmar OR 40K)… Her ability to feed off of violence and resistance, irregardless of intent or loyalties, would see her powers swell like a black hole being force fed new material. Meanwhile it would NEVER occur to most of the factions to try and circumvent the way her empowerment works like Eris did, and even if the idea came up they’d have NO IDEA how to do so anyway. She would overwhelm most worlds in short order with her trillions strong hordes of hive, scores of war moons, and her use of her very throne world as an offensive weapon unto itself (That would be the 40K equivalent of Khorne iverting his Brass Citadel onto whatever worlds his forces are invading, which would allow him to personally manifest on them to do battle). The only factions that would be able to hold out against Xivu Arath for an extended period of time would be ones that can grow stronger as they fight like her… That leaves Orks, Tyranids and Khorne’s forces as the best bets in a straight fight, and at _best_ that would just result in a positive feedback loop of a mutually empowering stalemate until either one side finally wins, or reality just up and collapses from the strain of both sides unnatural might eclipsing what the local universe would be able to support…. So basically The Octarius War, but engorged on Slaanesh’s personal stash of substances.

[@pinkies8666]

dude imagine a swarmlord with the dna of a hive ogre

[@retr0pearce765]

Xivu was cut off her throne world, she keeps her worm iirc, so she STILL feeds off of violence and war.

[@jackmack4181]

I personally imagine hive god trio having different ways of dealing with the chaos gods Xivu Arath would keep on fighting even when it shows it’s not working, creating a sort of Octarius war with Khorne and Xivu. I mean her two greatest losses came from Humanity refusing to fight and Eris mourne kicking her out of her own throne world and making her mortal again. Both just building up strength until the pressure gives Savathun would be a “friendly colleague” with Tzeencht, currying favor with knowledge while all the time trying to out smart the chaos god of change like she did with the witness it each time it just doesn’t happen. Like Savathuns playing checkers with Tzeencht and she turns the tables to chess but Tzeencht is already 3 steps a head and playing poker. Finally Oryx, he was able to create a Tithe system to keep his own worm fed and I believe through that he would realize the only way to truly destroy the chaos gods is by first killing what they feed off of. So in short Oryx would be indifferent to chaos but he might be able to “trade” and Cooperate with certain individuals, like how he emulated Trickery to resurrect Savathun. Bonus: I believe Nurgle would hate nockres and other hive aspects

[@lostnemesis]

I agree especially with the portion about oryx not just going in lol because he was smart enough to realize certain things. So he probably would realize "it would be better if I just go and deal with everyone outside first"

[@spv4711]

But each one has the possibility of being corrupted by them a can absolutely see Xev Orath being corrupted or overthrowing Korn

[@lostnemesis]

@@spv4711 hi I'm a big destiny fan, I don't really think they would have much problem with being corrupted because especially oryx and Xivu they are beings that through willpower alone can change the world oryx more than his sister but nevertheless, By the logic of their characters and powers in the story The only Way to my knowledge they could be corrupted would be if they lost in a direct fight against the person trying to corrupt them, because most of their weakness comes about from being challenged in the sword logic and then losing, Mama S I don't think we'd be corrupted at all, because hers is a much different logic she plays a different game her game is trickery and the fact that she is full of ego and willpower because she's been alive so long that she truly believes nothing can outwit her at all even if she has been proven time and time again to be wrong she still thinks she is the best and smartest thing in the universe, Tldr I don't think they could get corrupted because of how their system of power works (especially oryx I forgot to mention because his is literally because of him dominating through willpower and we know willpower can protect you so he would be fine)

[@Stingerburn]

Yeah but while tzneech is already playing poker she already planned ahead and is playing jenga, black jack and pool

[@life-destiny1196]

Mmm, I'm on Team Destiny here, but I do have a complaint. The entire point of the sword logic is that there are no exceptions--I don't see why it wouldn't apply to undead creatures. The Hive do consider necromancy heretical (as death is just the removal of things that, by way of dying, proved they don't have the right to exist, and so undoing death is spitting on the sword logic), not that that stopped Nokris. The sword logic is the Hive interpretation of the "final shape" concept, which seems a bit closer to the ideas the Winnower originally represented than what the Witness settled on. If you're keeping up with the D2 lore, read the lore tab for the ship Nacre. For the rest of you: the Gardener and Winnower created many universes, which all ended in the same pattern, which the Winnower thought was cool but the Gardener kinda hated. The Gardener proposed some rule changes to increase complexity and maybe create a new outcome, the Winnower got mad, they had a big fight, the universe as we know it was born. (It's unclear how much of this is true and how much is parable.) The pattern the Winnower loved so much is, approximately, self-centeredness--take what you need, betray others if it's convenient, etc. From the sword logic's perspective, the very idea of something existing outside its own rules is a nonstarter. And that is also, perhaps, its biggest flaw: when we kill Oryx in the raid, it is a result of cooperation between equals (he is not a soloable encounter; I think exploits may have previously existed to allow it, not clear on that, but that wouldn't be canon anyway). We leave the much-vaunted "power to Take" on the floor, metaphorically speaking, rather than accept his power for ourselves. And I don't know a whole lot about 40k, just bits and pieces by osmosis, but it's not clear to me who could win in such a fashion from that side. Oryx got that power in the first place by kililng his sisters (thus sword-logicking himself the powers of both War and Cunning--the comparison between Xivu Arath and Khorne is an interesting one I won't get into, btw), then killing Akka, Worm God of Secrets to get the ability to commune with the Deep, then did so. This led to an offscreen conversation with someone--either the Witness or Winnower, it's not entirely clear--and he returned from the Deep with that power. So it strikes me that one of the problems with taking the other route, beating Oryx on his own terms, is that he's already proven he can kill some seriously tough customers. I'm not even sure what that would require. Time travel could pull it off; the Vex can do something that kind of resembles it, though if it were truly unlimited time travel they'd have already assimilated the whole universe. You could also maybe kill enough Hive to starve Oryx's worm and thus weaken him, but that would be the kind of slaughter that would result in a different problem, and that problem's name is Xivu Arath. The guardians pulled off their win by virtue of being difficult to Take (much later, we see Sloane get nearly Taken, even bearing some of their visual effects on her person, but that took years of psychological warfare from Xivu Arath and ultimately is stopped before completion), so that's a bare minimum to do the "reject the sword logic" strategy.

[@juliane.mfarias9285]

Remember the Vex can't simulate paracausal beings/powers. So their time travel is far less broken because of it. And Vex assimilation is not that fast if i remember correctly.

[@NoVACorpsGaming]

We (The Guardians) Opposed the Sword Logic with Bomb Logic. Beauty in complexity, in many moving parts, in uplifting each other rather than the self. That’s what broke the sword, and that was the goal of the Gardener. But, unlike in previous games, now both participants are actively engaging within the game, interacting with our world, rather than setting up the starting conditions and letting them play out themselves.

[@lostnemesis]

There's a few things with him like you can't beat him in the straight test of power that just doesn't work guardians have been able to do that to a lot of people but weren't able to do that with him, kind of had to skirt the rules as toland would on his nicest day put it, The interesting thing I see about this matchup is him and the chaos gods work under similar rules to how you can kill them, because you can only kill oryx in his throne world. And you can only kill the chaos gods in the warp (which they can't really leave only I think one time a chaos God was allowed to run and that was on her birth.) I do think it's interesting because, as brought up in the video he can take pretty much everything. But the demons 😂

[@renny_charmer8741]

​@@juliane.mfarias9285Vex planetary assimilation is extremely fast.

[@C4MG1RL]

Oryx spoke with the Winnower, not the Witness. The Winnower taught him how to Take. The conversation is in line with other dialogue we have gotten from it and is way too out of character for the Witness.

[@goosemanVEVO]

The Taken dont really have a will of their own, from my understanding. Its completely broken upon the will the one that wields them as a weapon. Control of the Taken, or certain pockets of them, has changed hands more than once since their introduction. And characters have stated multiple times that they do not or cannot act without a leader. They can only ever carry out the will of whoever is in control of them. They are not individuals anymore, just extensions of whoever is in control of them. Imagine a hive mind without each body being a part of that mind. Oryx was the mind, and the Taken were just chess pieces mindlessly following his will.

[@gaiofattos2]

They kinda can in certain form. Noru'usk, Kelgorath and Malok have obtained certain free will.

[@xlbeanboi2653]

@@gaiofattos2 they were taken to give a power boost tho so not completely taken, plus kelgorath is just destiny's version of Bobby Bacala from soprano's

[@gaiofattos2]

@@xlbeanboi2653 They were completery Taken, Noru'usk was a Cabal before be taken.

[@frozi1541]

The Nine entering the 40K universe be like: Humanity: What are you? Tau: Are you good? Orks: Ya's are fighta's? Eldari: Do you have souls within you? Necrons: Are you gods? Nurgle: Can you die? Khorne: Do you bleed? Slanesh: Do you have desires? T'zeench: just according... the... plan(?) The Nine sends a small urn for each faction, the word "yes" is carved on it. Opening the urn revelas its content- Purple dust.

[@chetparker5821]

Amazing video! One small correction, Oryx gained the power to take by the Winnower (the originator of the universal force of darkness) not the witness. This is evidenced by the way the Winnower speaks to both him (in the books of sorrow) and us (in the recent ship's lore) being the same but entirely different to the way the witness speaks to anyone.

[@Buster-McTunder]

Yeah been finding out my source for this video (a handful of wiki articles on Oryx) were outdated from before we really knew what the Witness was. When they and the winnower were kinda nebulous. Thanks for the correction.

[@fala5764]

​@@Buster-McTunderthere's a really good post on r/destinylore that has some indepth discussion about the differences between the 2 and figuring out dialogue differences in different lore pages to determine who was actually speaking. Think it was titled something like "all the winnower denyers proved wrong" or something along those lines

[@kanewilson8624]

Chaos does have the potential to brute force their way into a Ascendant Realm like the Vex did (but that took up ALOT of time, resources and maths) and it only worked because Crota left the door open on his way out by mistake.

[@Trayzentheinfinite]

Zteench has a Deamon named Kairos Fateweaver who sees all that has happened and all that will happen but he is blind to the present (don’t ask how the blindness part works I don’t know) if someone has come up with a way into a ascendant realm he that daemons can use he knows and can have his mortal worshipers open the way for his legions to go through

[@grimm_satisfaction1292]

@@Trayzentheinfinite Paracausal entities are immune to precognitive powers/technologies.

[@Revision-Harrowed]

Do note that while this may be the case for a normal throne world, Oryx's throne world is different and was turned into the Dreadnaught specifically to prevent intrusions like what happened when Crota cut open space and let the Vex in the first time.

[@yimpyoi9808]

@@Trayzentheinfinitesee the problem is that kairos fateweaver is batshit insane and doesnt know what hes doing 90% of the time

[@Trayzentheinfinite]

@@yimpyoi9808 your kinda right from what I’ve seen and read (such as total war warhammer 3) he can still say what he has seen. also everything he says is documented by 9 by 9 lords of change if I remember correctly.

[@PopCultureGuru-wz7bc]

Next up on Destiny vs Warhammer 40k: the Fallen vs the Kroot

[@karlwikman3874]

the Cabal vs the Imperium

[@horrorfan117]

Vex vs Necrons Undying time traveling robot fight!

[@PopCultureGuru-wz7bc]

Not a bad match up however they’ll be much better against the Eldar thanks to their planet eating spaceships and brute strength

[@axt_4254]

​@@horrorfan117the thing is the vex can simulate far better then the necrons, and sure we havent seen one if the necrons were a threat wich they arnt they would deploy some actual soldiers instead of these construction bots and light infintry (wyvern) to deal with them since waiting for necron extinction isnt much of a option. Remember there is a near infinite number of necrons but a true infinite number of vex

[@thunderlord6250]

@@horrorfan117vex clear ez first of all there are like infinite vex and limited necrons and have superior simulating ability

[@bfedezl2018]

Now do The Witness. This one actually I think is on their level

[@Fyre19]

its not.

[@bfedezl2018]

@@Fyre19 In fact he is above, you are right. The witness was capable on his own of destroying the universe something the chaos gods never could

[@Fyre19]

@@bfedezl2018 if they can do it in fantasy they can def do it in warhammer 40k

[@robbiestafford6889]

@@Fyre19in terms of cosmology the only true Arguements are The Gardener and The Winnower (The new destiny raid confirmed that The Witness and The Winnower are seperate entities), who created the whole cosmos.

[@Fyre19]

@@robbiestafford6889 gods have been taken down before in 40k

[@Kat-jy9op]

Slight D2 lore things: The Witness had nothing to do with teaching Oryx how to take, it was the Deep/Winnower (as recent lore confirms) and the act of taking doesn’t involve the soul of any being. It “hollows out” something so long as that something has a will of it’s own, soul or not, and then subjects it’s will to whoever took it, in this case Oryx. Also, Oryx himself is also linked to the concept of Exploration, like how how his starts are Cunning and War (his title as the Navigator) so the more he explores of the 40k universe the stronger he becomes, and anyone that would attempt to invade his Throne World must abide by the rules of the sword logic. When the Vex gained entry the only reason they were able to stay and fight against the Hive was because Quoria, a Vex Mind, managed to simulate Oryx and understand the Sword Logic, which let the Vex gain power through the rules of Oryx’s own throne world.

[@Offmikesmysticalelixir]

There are way too many misconceptions or wrong things said in this about the Taken/ Oryxs power to take.The Vex were Taken so demons should be free game as the power doesnt in any way require a soul. It only requires a will of anything. Also Taken do not have free will. They’re not even the same creature that was taken. Theyre darkness monsters that take the form of whatever lifeform was taken so as long as its not a lightbearer quite literally anything is free game.

[@ItsDaKoolaidDude]

Now what of Witness taking on the Ruinous Powers of Chaos? I'd easily say the Witness would fucking *_hate_* what the Ruinous Powers are, since we've learned that the Witness was made to carve purpose into being.

[@artemisfowldragon]

Tzeench just keeps asking “but why though” and watching as all of his little smoke faces get angrier and angrier while Khorne just says “cope and seethe”

[@ItsDaKoolaidDude]

@@artemisfowldragon Witness is already a being of wrath, rage and hate. the smoke faces wouldn't change at all. Entire time we've been seeing the Witness, he's always been angry. tbh dude would've just considered Tzeench's antics as an expected annoyance from something born of no purpose, from all that I've learned and listened from him.

[@artemisfowldragon]

@@ItsDaKoolaidDude angry, you say? Khorne’s gonna be sipping on that from the background. Plus, dude’s stagnant, if I’ve seen some of these comments right (correct me if I’m wrong). He wants things to stay one way, permanently, yes? Nurgle’s benefitting from that, stagnation’s in his bag.

[@ItsDaKoolaidDude]

@@artemisfowldragon Its not stagnation per say as you'd probably describe it for Nurgle. but rather all existence and all beings frozen in a specific point in time in an endless perpetuation, whether its at someone's greatest triumph or greatest regrets or failures. All of this happening while the physical realm becomes... Calcified in a way? Its a bit difficult to really describe it, you'll have to see some of the lore videos surrounding the Witness and his goals, which I recommend searching "Final Shape Opening Cutscene" as that visually demonstrates what he'd do to the physical existence and his little monologue about the "Final Shape". The rest you'll have to dig a bit deeper. But stagnation would've been the same as entropy, which is what the Witness hates. As for Khorne, something tells me that the Witness wouldn't really be in a *_blinding rage_* but more of a just "I hate how you are, i hate how you're existing in the way you're currently existing and I will fix it because the Traveler won't" (more lore related to that one, including the origins of the Witness)

[@artemisfowldragon]

@@ItsDaKoolaidDude I see, I see! That being said, I do think that still kinda falls into Nurgle’s wheelhouse, but at a certain point it just becomes semantics

[@cherryshark9170]

Difference between taken and chaos Is Chaos despite anyone who falls to the ruinous powers has more constantly show they are capable of thinking for themselves even though they are forever part of the Chaos gods machinations but taken a have few instances where a individual still retains their will but thats up to 3 to 5 out countless others so Oryx if gains scope of what's going on plus he would probably bluster his forces by taking entire armies not affiliated with chaos.

[@minthuta3288]

It might cause some fire but. Winnower and Gardner > 40k

[@darkreflection9087]

Helldivers vs Mass Effect First Contact War

[@Midguardsormr]

Mass Effect claps Helldivers

[@TheLordofMetroids]

I would argue any Demon Prince could become Ascendent they are essentially the same thing as a Guardian, a mortal being blessed with power by a divine god. Of the known Demon Princes, Mortarian, Be'lakor Angron and Lorgar probably have the best chance of beating the Taken King. Magnus would be too busy trying to harness the Taken power for himself, and Fulgrim is too busy being Fulgrim. Also shout out to my boy Perturabo who isn't going to join this fight, but you know hes going to find a way to turn Taken into a tank, just to see what happens.

[@shadefelblade]

Only flaw with daemon princes is their souls are destroyed by their transformation from mortal to daemon

[@lostnemesis]

I can see it, but ironically I think unlike with the more guardian focused video. The primarchs could kill him easier, because if I remember correctly it's in the lore that when characters like fulgrim became demon primarchs they lost that special juice. They can't change the future, they can't change things that are set in stone, And that's kind of what was needed to kill oryx. Because he had been challenged by all manner of powerful beings before, champions that if he did not come would have went down as Legends across the universe (I still remember the birdman even if no one else remembers that lore card from D1) I think the real problem is he doesn't have a way to kill the chaos gods, he has ways to annoy them because he can take their demons I do agree with you the demon Prince is he would not be able to touch them at all they were at the very least be highly resistant to being taken, Oh I forgot so here's the edit. I do think the daemon primarchs could get into his ascendant realm to try him.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

@@shadefelblade I don't think that's true, because the Emperor himself said Demon Primarch Mortarian could be redeemed. If Big E thinks there is still something there to redeem, then I don't think they can be souless.

[@shadefelblade]

@@TheLordofMetroids yeah but that's mortarion he isn't a normal daemon prince primarch souls were essentially possible minor warp gods to begin with

[@Trayzentheinfinite]

@@shadefelbladeyour right in a way, it’s not the primearchs special juice that makes them chaos curable but it’s the emperor who can claim their soul thus removing chaos

[@juliane.mfarias9285]

Now i have the mental image of the Black Legion sieging The Dreadnought and it E.P.I.C.

[@Jet-ij9zc]

You need to be an ascendant to enter the dreadnought. They could shell it (which would do just about nothing), but never siege it

[@juliane.mfarias9285]

@@Jet-ij9zc You need to be an ascendant to enter the deep of the Dreadnaught. The wider dreadnought is accesible if you pass the Superweapon. Like we did and previously the Cabal did as well.

[@robofreak425]

​@@Jet-ij9zc Reminder that there was a point of initially exploring the Dreadnought to set up a landing zone where we come across the Cabal's Skyburners landing ship having rammed a hole through the ourter shell of the Dreadnought to establish a beachhead. Such a maneuver is well within Space Marine doctrine for boarding craft through space. Now, whether the marines will be able to access some of the inner sanctums or not is a different story. I believe they will eventually figure out the gimmicks, but knowing and doing are two different things when you're not a technically immortal being capable of reviving on the spot shortly after death.

[@v.rocky111]

Considering oryx has communications with the winnower, he could prove himself worthy similar to the traveler and guardians; devotion, bravery, sacrifice, death, and gain some sort of unholy power similar to the witness, who also has a direct connection to the winnower. If he could maintain that power from commiting genocide against the weaker beings in the 40k verse then I think he could decimate everything.

[@lazyvoid7107]

He doesn't know because he doesn't keep up with more getting updated in Destiny

[@sp0tl1gtf0rjustice]

I would love to see the Black Fleet and the Dread vs. The Eldar.

[@hellblaze10]

Black fleet wins. There is no true instances of a pramid ship being destroyed. Also the black fleet is basically eldar mixed with necrons

[@axt_4254]

​@@hellblaze10 when the traveler beamed nezzys ship (not the one on the moon, the one from the raid) its the most damaged we have seen a ship, so theoretically the traveler could destroy a ship entirely.

[@hellblaze10]

@@axt_4254 the the travel is a god so ya

[@gaiofattos2]

@@hellblaze10 There are at least three instances: The Witness pyramid destroyed by the Traveler, 1 at Savathun throne disable by the Upended and one at Eris (planet) destroyed by Mara Sov using Oryx power.

[@lemmiwinks200]

​@axt_4254 yeah but that's literally God. Not a God, but one half that made all of reality.

[@firepowerx-venezuelangame3890]

All powerscaling arguments fall flat when you realize Oryx can just grab something and go “it’s mine now, lmao.”

[@EPIKSAUCE234]

Could you imagine kharn and his butcherhorde fighting hive until oryx just up and says " I like this one" and just taking him right there?

[@firepowerx-venezuelangame3890]

@@EPIKSAUCE234 EXACTLY, Oryx could 100% do that and there’s nothing that could be done to stop him!

[@bloodfest8510]

@@firepowerx-venezuelangame3890 tzeentch just corrupted savathun through brute force, and entered his throne world while he did that, oryx then got blasted by two warhound titans at point blank range

[@firepowerx-venezuelangame3890]

@@bloodfest8510 Savathun could not be corrupted, warhound titans would be taken, and do you forget what oryx’s throne world is now?

[@bloodfest8510]

@@firepowerx-venezuelangame3890 proof savathun can't be corrupted? Proof the knights can be taken? Proof he can even take machine spirits? What difference does it make, it'd be the same outcome

[@Tony-lw5yp]

I feel like you are doing Oryx short here. For starters he has conquered civilizations for billions of years, even galaxy wide empires if I remember correctly and that was just as he communed with the darkness, from there on he has only grown stronger thanks to the sword logic. The Chaos Gods, while strong and incredible hard to kill, are not perfect. Their control over the warp is limited to their realms and their lifes are more or less linked to the real plane and that one is the size of a galaxy. Oryx with the army he was leading towards Sol would be more than enough to make Warhammer submit and the chaos gods to vanish with enough time. Also every hive runs on the sword logic, from the weakest of the thralls to the mightiest knight, they have acquired paracausal power and yet they can be taken by Oryx, it isn't hard to think he could do the same to the lowest of the daemos and climb in power from there. Another thing is that Oryx and his sisters also linked themselves to abstract concepts (war, cunning and I'm not too sure on Oryx himself) and yet he could grant true deaths to his sisters so it's likely he himself could grant true death to the ruinous powers.

[@lazyvoid7107]

What you suspect he is a Warhammer fanboy

[@TheNikonem]

Chaos gods fed on emotions long before oryx was born , even more before he became a hive god . That means they had eons to feed on whole universes emotions while oryx wasnt even existing . So conquering a lot of civilisations is kinde minescule compared to whole univers and to top it off with that time gap. So pls , stop hyping up a guy who gets destroyed every week for years by 6 man squad or even less.

[@Tony-lw5yp]

@@TheNikonem My guy, they literally were shitting bricks at the prospect of the Big E cutting humanity from the warp. There is absolutely nothing universal about the chaos gods, they depend on the galaxy to exist and Oryx Taking the galaxy is literal death for them. Hell, the war in heaven was 65 million years ago and that's what started their existence, Slaneesh itself is merely 20 thousand years old. Meanwhile Oryx has been conquering galactic empires for Billions of years. Please get your lore together before showing your fanatism.

[@TheNikonem]

@@Tony-lw5yp read aggain, slanesh always existed in the warp duo to its time beeing all over the place. Chaos god united to fight big e , they didnt shit bricks they simply put aside theyr fight among themselves( cuz 90% of theyr attention is on the great game ). Compare big E and Oryx ? XD. Chaos gods draw energy from the emotions of WHOLE galaxy not just humanity. As for war in heaven i cant comment cuz im short there on the info . U sure try to talk big , about a guy who wanted to become smtng that chaos gods were from theyr birth , a universal emotion/concept... Oryx is not gonnna conquer anything , we saw what happened in d1 and how he conquered. Gods in wh and gods in d2 are 2 different things . Guy with a gun is a god to african tribe and nothing to a millitary general . Kinda sad that u try to justify lore vise how strong he is , yet he gets owned every week .

[@TheNikonem]

@@Tony-lw5yp also forgot to add , shit writing like taking (explain it pls in detail so i can laugh) and conquering billions of galactic empires without any book ,story or any deeper info , doesnt make him strong , it makes character bland and uninteresting. And FYI i played both and i know the lore of both universes and i still think oryx is infinetly inferior.

[@ki11card25]

A few corrections in D2 lore. It's not confirmed where the taken method come from. When Oryx gains the power to take through communion he speaks to a being which is debated to be the Witness or the Winnower. It's now more evident that Oryx got the power of taking through the Winnower which explains why being taken is more willful than we think. The taken are like robots that cannot act much without commands. Which is why people like Malok, Savathun, Xivu Arath, and the Drifter (in a very small fashion) can lead taken without much problem. It seems that their loyalty doesn't lie with the witness but the very basis of sword logic, only those that follow it and darkness can control them (theoretically).

[@FlawlessWallace3350]

I feel like there already two beings on chaos side that could become ascended for chaos: Archaon the Everchosen and Abaddon the war master of chaos undivided. Both of these characters wield the power of chaos undivided and the everchosen won his setting before classic war hammer was brought back

[@cancerconnoisseur]

I think Oryx could do it. And The Witness didn't teach him to do it, he learned himself

[@eotwkdp]

New lore suggests taken are similar to daemons . Not in well sentience or ability to change but respawning. Low key want to watch a nurgle frog eat a cabal phalanx.

[@Xander--gd5lb]

It 100% depends lol. Oryx’s philosophy runs directly counter to 3 of the 4 chaos gods in the end. The Sword Logic is progressing towards a final ending shape. This means, eventually there will be no war. So there’s Khorne. The sword logic wants there to be one lasting being with no more change. There’s Tzeentch. The sword logic wishes to end the cycle of life and death, countering Nurgle. So in just by going about his business, Oryx runs counter to the chaos gods. Also by taking beings, they’d have their own will filled with the will of Oryx and the Winnower (universal god of consciousness and order in Destiny). This likely would protect them from the influences of Chaos. So… all Oryx needs to do is take everything and he pretty much wins. The only potential hitch is that his actions would likely empower Khorne in the process. Oryx could starve the Warp… Oryx also has functional immortality. Whenever he dies outside of his Ascendant Throne, he is just instantly teleported back there instead. The only way he can die is if he’s killed in his Throne, in which he can only be killed by beings with the ability to manifest things outside of the normal cause and effect of the universe (read paracausal). Everything else that enters must play by the Sword Logic. And in a place of his own creation, Oryx is all powerful, so he can’t be defeated through the sword logic. So basically it takes a very special type of someone to go in there, and make something to counteract the sword logic (like bomb logic). IF the Ascendant plane isnt the warp, and Oryx were to just casually walk in there with his Hive. He’d likely lose. But Oryx does have a win-con.

[@ArminaticsVoiceArtist]

Didnt Oryx get the power to take from the Darkness itself or rather the Winnower? Like from the tablets of Ruin?

[@Girsu0]

Inherently the winnower is darkness itself.

[@digunder14]

honestly far as i can see, one god or two might give him a struggle since he'd be feeding into their powers, but given his whole idea of being ever adapting, he could eventually counter them unless they killed him in his own throne world, which is basically having to kill him where he is at his strongest, yet also most vulnerable

[@Shimazumi]

Late to this discussion. But there is a more surefire, though roundabout way to beat chaos. Oryx doesn’t actually need to take demons, instead, he can simply take all beings with a conscious knowledge of the warp. As a the warp is the manifestation of souls, the collective bucket of consciousness. If Oryx took that consciousness, he would have at least partial sway over the immaterium. Even if not control in the sense of a chaos god, but he would be able to weaken chaos, by simply the result of less people being able to fuel chaos themselves. Eventually, he would win, unless some chaos god managed to truly kill him before he could take entire star systems worth of creatures.

[@boingbong7348]

I think Oryx would most likely try his hand at becoming a Chaos God. The Touch of Malice exotic has shown us that Oryx's end goal was to become Synonymous with death and thus live indefinitely as becoming the literal concept of death. Could see a point in which Oryx tries to become the chaos god of death.

[@eotwkdp]

But death is always happpening. If there is too much death then the concept will die as there’s is no life left.

[@Wormy_fren]

​@@eotwkdpI mean... Same thing with war. If there's too much war there will be no one to war against. That would logic khorne out of existence. If there's too much treachery and discovery trust will no.longer exist and all that can be discovered has been discovered. Writing tzeentch out of the picture Excess in too great a quantity becomes the new normal. And eventually there will be no excess that cannot become normal. Thus killing slaanesh and erasing her away as a concept. Nurgle? Ehhh. He'll survive. But yeah flawed way of thinking. And besides becoming an axiom of death is much more impactful than being a wriggling chaos god anyways.

[@fala5764]

​@@eotwkdpyet if he was somehow reborn as the living concept of death it becomes a paradoxical existence where so long as death exists he lives yet so long as life remains so too does death, making him perpetually immortal, and since we know hive gods can be reborn by embodying their concept it is highly possible he does reappear by said method

[@Arkaeus04]

Winnower gave oryx the ability to take. Witness confirmed the winnower exists in the raid.

[@HighXenotaph]

Guardians can be taken. It has never been said that they can't people just assumed since we never fought taken guardians. The light does protect, but it only makes the taking of guardians difficult and not exactly worth it when trying to build up an army (with how long it takes, and how much energy it takes to do it and keep the guardian under control).

[@tobiasneethling8871]

Oryxs throne world being pushed out into physical space to become the Dreadnought is also of note, it's main blast as seen in TTK opening cutscene is the throne world being expanded and pushing against the physical world and finding it wanting. I'm also fairly sure it cannot even be destroyed as it's a metaphysical concept being made real through sheer power alone hence why it is still in orbit around Saturn despite Oryx dying.

[@calvinhayman7597]

Correction no taking does not come from the witness it comes from the winnower who is one of the two comic beings oc existence on destiny.

[@endtrap101]

7:48 abaddon the despoiler fits this description pretty well

[@aaronjohnston2751]

I'm shocked no one discussed the most likely result of the Hive encountering the W40K universe and Chaos Gods: joining one the Chaos Gods of their own voilition. The Ruinous Powers are not only able to grant immortality and vastly enhance the abilities of their followers in a way similar to the worms the proto-hive were once infested with, but with arguably less drawbacks than the worms. Not onky that, but if Warhammer Fantasy is canon to Warhammer 40K... the Chaos Gods are multiversal threats and could easily consume the 40K galaxy if they ever stopped trying to have fun playing the Great Game and screwing each other over for the sake of an individual win instead of a collective win.

[@Jet-ij9zc]

The token's goal is the opposite of the chaos gods goals. There's zero chance they would ever ally each other unless you assume Oryx tricks them and betrays them later (which is unlikely considering tzench and all). The taken want to take everyone, making every living being an extension of Oryx's will. This would bring about absolute order and cripple the chaos gods beyond mesure (I assume they wouldn't even be able to retain thier ego)

[@lenni01]

Oryx would see their undeath state as an afront to the sword logic and wage war with them.

[@bloodfest8510]

@@Jet-ij9zc ok, but savathun just joined tzeentch and none of the hive need to feast on souls to live anymore. also nurgle just released a plague that eats away hive chitaine like termites, which tzeentch just carpet bombed oryx's throne world with so ggs?

[@Jet-ij9zc]

@bloodfest8510 savathun, maybe but unlikely. Nurgle's plague would be easily countered. The infected hive would have no issue isolating and offing themselves the second they're infected. The taken are a hivemind so would t work either. Tzeench cannot enter Oryx's throne world and even if he could Oryx would have the upper hand there

[@bloodfest8510]

@@Jet-ij9zc nurgles plague wouldnt be stopped by isolation what? if it was that easy, nurgle wouldnt have racked a body count as high as he has, but sure, lets say they isolate. nurgle modifies the plague to be made and carried by hive swarmflies. gg theres nothing saying tzeentch cant get into oryx's throne world, and in all honesty hed get in as soon as any way was figured out in the future, oryx wouldnt have the upper hand at all? oryx couldnt take many people, and died to guns and mini light bombs. you think oryx is surviving 5 chaos volcano cannons? let alone a warp vortex to the chest? oryx is lucky that tzeentch hasnt figured out what taking is yet by this point anyways, because if tzeentch figured that out, hed start banishing them like the old warp illness he put onto the thousand sons.

[@Anti_Plot_Armor]

MY SUGGESTION MADE IT POG. Also 100% agree

[@MRbug_423]

Another character from Destiny that would be interesting in the Warhammer universe has to be Xivu Arath. Now, most importantly, a Xivu Arath pre season of the witch. Because in current Destiny continuity, Xivu Arath is mortal now, she doesn't have access to her throneworld anymore. Meaning if she were to die in the real world she would stay dead

[@nicholasperry2302]

Oryx is slightly above greater deamon level and probably demon primarch, which is terrifyingly high praise. However, the chaos gods are forces of nature integral to reality and life. Also, there doesnt seem to be any way to truly kill them as in the warp, they have always and will always exist outside of space time and a direct assault on one is basically impossible. I think a more fair matchup is oryx vs the god emperor. Even if you glaze oryx as being as powerful as a chaos god, theres absolutely no way he takes on 4 of them. L oryx but an L with mad respect for the attempt

[@eotwkdp]

Oryx domains would be in line of the world of physical. Still he’s still alive he’s has greater power much like the emperor. Though it just means the chaos god will do everything in their power to cripple the hive god. Look sword logic aside we all know khorne will make xiva look like a small greater daemon at best

[@joryvuylsteke6900]

Oryx can only take things that are alive. Guardians are dead and can’t be taken. If the chaos aren’t alive and are manifestations they should be able to ascend and are immune to being taken. As ascending has nothing to do with life

[@fala5764]

Guardians can be taken, as Sloane was partially taken in season of the deep, we've just never seen a fully taken guardian

[@gaiofattos2]

Servitors were taken and are machines.

[@raptordoesyoutube107]

Now I want to see necrons vs the vex.

[@pierrealyzer2691]

if the vex can stumble into a throne world, and fuck with crota for ages, who knows? i think it would just require understanding that one exists, before the chaos gods could figure out how to open a “wound in reality”, to get there and do battle with the navigator.

[@thomaspurol9322]

That was before Oryx inverted his throne world into real space and shoved that into the Dreadnought. Now you HAFT to be ascended to get in and that’s if you’ve already secured an entrance to the ship itself

[@pierrealyzer2691]

@@thomaspurol9322 ooh you’re right, and that worm carcass has some nifty defences too. that big blast of soul space colliding into reality took out a huge chunk of the asteroid belt.. maybe if they used the same method as the cabal to establish a beachhead on the dreadnaught.. the ascension thing is still a tricky work around though

[@shadefelblade]

One thing i disagree with is the "unlife of chaos" part... nurgle represents the cycle if life and death albeit twisted with plague... also nurgle could probably make a plague to kill the physical forms of the taken

[@schmokerpatrick]

So what I think the biggest problem with the Taken fighting chaos is that the warp gods feed off of certain ideals. Ideals that would be very prominent in this situation, Tzeench would gain power from the Taken Kings plans to over throw them to a point and the breaking of mortal wills, Khorne would be fuelby all of the fighting that would be waged between the two factions, and the biggest winner of all would be Nurgle who would gain power from stagnation caused by the taken themselves. Not to mention the Daemon armies are infinite as long as those warp gods sustained and Nurgle would have mortals that don't have full free will due to the haze nurgle puts them in to stop the pain of the diseases they have from the plague father. But even if they couldn't go into the Ascended plane to fight Oryx, I do not think the taken could make much headway without constantly fueling at least 2 chaos gods allot

[@lazyvoid7107]

Also the Taken's don't die they go back to the ascended plane

[@Wormy_fren]

I mean. The taken don't really have a will though. This is something that is really ignored. Hell the only times there's been taken with a semblance of will are the red crusty guys. And there's been like a handful of them but not much else. That lack of thought, of purpose is going to seriously cripple the chaos gods no matter what. Since they do embody concepts and are fueled by them. But they're also suspectable to damage considering they were afraid and are probably shitting their pants over the emperor of mankind. Who in relative terms is basically a blip in their so called infinitely spanning lives. So yeah, so long as the taken infest every planet. The chaos gods are most certainly going to feel a massive impact from the loss of thought and free will that will emerge from Oryx's rampages across the stars.

[@digunder14]

unlike the emperor, oryx would actually be at least somewhat if not completely consistant in terms of power

[@valetj6330]

Almost certain guardian can be TAKEN (*final shape spoilers*) infact, I'd say the very existence of guardians in lore that have gone evil from various reasons not even counting taken. And for the hive, I'd say their WARP realm is fairly equivalent to the Ascendant Realm and their Throne Worlds. (Maybe a CHAOS G could steal a hive g trough their realm) It day it be the same to how the witness influenced the Hive as a race all together.

[@eotwkdp]

Anyone just imagining Savathûn and the wizards feeling useless when those under khornate protection are immune to a great degree of magic. I can see Kharn breaking those impenetrable green barriers

[@angryaustralian8909]

Magic doesn’t exist in Destiny. Paracausal power is not magic before you ask. Hive “magic” is just hyper advanced hive science.

[@bloodfest8510]

@@angryaustralian8909 doesnt matter to chaos.

[@Jack_the_Daniel]

​@@bloodfest8510It does, in fact, matter to Chaos, Magic is Magic, paracausality Is giving cause and effect the middle finger and doing what you want without any regard to It being physically possible But then again, your understanding of Destiny's scale Is non-existent, judging from the other braindead comments you left, so i guess saying this to you Is the same as trying to talk sense into a wall

[@bloodfest8510]

@@Jack_the_Daniel my understanding of destinys scaling is completely fine and like my other "braindead" comments say, paracausality is a loophole fix, not a feat. cause and effect doesnt matter to chaos when chaos also gets around that time and time again, not to mention the orks. once more. magic is magic, IN 40K magic in destiny 2 is different yes, but chaos? is an outer plane like planes of ascension and hive worlds which have effected "paracausal" beings multiple times in lore. so the only braindead one here is you for not being able to comprehend that since chaos works the way that it does in 40k, it implies that it would have that altered effect in destiny 2 due to its nature. its hard to talk sense to a wall, when your a brick yourself apparently

[@bloodfest8510]

​@@Jack_the_Daniel furthermore your implication is that magic is unable to effect paracausality. but by what logic? tzeentch effects fate its self? that alone has been seen as paracausal in destiny, looking into the future (the vex) was already a big enough issue for the guardians to fight, so a chaos god who can do that isnt bypassing paracausality? again, your the one who doesnt know how scaling works for shit when compairing different IP's And its evident by your random assumptions that they just dont have any effect without even looking at them properly. also if your next argument is about how ive never played or looked into lore, i have, tzeentch is litterally capable of 1v1ing multiple ahamkharas. let alone oryx

[@ouflag6799]

Kharn pulls up and pull a doomslayer

[@darkreflection9087]

Helldivers vs Killzone Helghast

[@listener709]

Abadon the de spoiler would easily match with oryx plus the chaos gods are known to join when facing a common foe so Its likely abadon is getting juiced up

[@ryandinkelacker8906]

The covenant empire vs the imperium of man

[@Jekido777]

This was very interesting. I'm sure plenty of us want to see Warframe/Tenno vs. Destiny's Guardians. Or something involving them and The First Descendants.

[@tap037]

Taken king gets sick just stepping in Nurgle’s garden….

[@individual7046]

Good video just a couple of bit of nitpicks to that might change the results a bit. Guardians can be taken even with their ghosts still alive. This is seen with Sloane in Season of the Deep who is partly taken. Though the result is unknown which is why we haven't seen it fully. The Witness did not try to take a guardian with in the traveler they merely tried to use words and manipulation. If it wanted to it could take a guardian but for some narritve reason has not. As for the process of taking itsself, the process is unknown but hints are given with in the universe. It does not have anything to do with the ascedent plane which is basically the destiny equivelent of the webway but entities are taken into a different plane of existence. The biggest theory is that they are taken to the Winower itself and corrupt there. This would be the 40K equivelent of teliporting someone right in front of Khorne and have them get instantly corrupted. Now if you where to power rank the Winower, they would be ranked along the chaos gods in power(possibly even greater). However this gives a reference point that can be used to determine whether demons can be Taken or Taken be corrupted. If we where to teliport a blood thirster straight into the center of Slaaneshes realm and have them stare upon Slaanesh themselves, would that Blood Thirster be corrupted into Slaaneshes army? If the answer is yes we can assume that Demons can be taken upon contact with the winnower. If the answer is no then we can assume that demons are destroyed upon contact with the winnower. Honestly the way to view Oryx with his Hive and Taken is the equivelent of a black crusade. I don't think he can take down a chaos god but he can probably take down champions of chaos and even very powerful demons. If you want something that can take down a chaos god you would have to look at Oryxes masters, the Witness and the Winower.

[@Jet-ij9zc]

The winower and the gardener undoubtedly scale a lot higher then the chaos gods. They created the whole universe and countless other before this one. The chaos gods are more comparable to Oryx, the witness and the traveler. Beings just under the gods of creation. Also, I'm a bit rusty on my destiny lore but didn't the witness try to corrupt us with stasis (it being a poisoned gift) and then got pissed when we kept the gift and disregarded the poison?

[@fala5764]

​@@Jet-ij9zcyes and no, the stasis shards given to house salvation were a poisoned gift as if you lost control or didn't have the tech to control them they would freeze you, but with us we simply realized we could control it without the shard the fallen used. Not super clear on how we exactly figured that out but it's not really a poisoned gift if there is a method to not be corrupted by it.

[@fala5764]

The gardener and winnower are conceptual gods of creation and destruction so they scale stupidly high

[@ashslaa]

Couldn't a Daemon Prince become asendent? I mean they were themselves once mortal before being elevated to a powerful level of Daemon Hood, and not all daemon princes started of as Primarchs.

[@artemisfowldragon]

Firstly, a question: what precisely is sword logic? Is it a philosophical stance or a rule hard baked into Destiny’s world (also probably a lore justification for why you can’t just run into the boss room, I presume)? In which case, it depends on who the invader is. Second off, I think you might misunderstand the living state of the forces of chaos. They *can’t* die, short of their souls getting fully destroyed by something like the Emperor’s own sword. They just go back to the warp. Mortals are taught to fear and hate chaos, being made screaming examples of if they happen to be caught worshipping it, yet they continue to fall. Not to mention, as long as conscious minds exist, so will the chaos gods, and so will the warp.

[@Xander--gd5lb]

Sword Logic is technically both, although it’s a power system used largely by the Hive and their Taken. They do a pretty bad job of representing the true extent that this power can give tho. It’s social Darwinism, but if you prove yourself against enough powerful enemies you gain paracausality (the ability to obey physics that sidestep conventional cause and effect systems). This can be used to accomplish things like faster-than-light travel, creating universal objects from thin air, fortifying yourself against death, and accessing the Ascendant Plane. The process of Taking was kinda butchered in the video. It’s a full unmaking and remaking. When something is taken by Oryx, it’s transported to the Ascendant Plane (basically the warp) to Oryx’s true throne. The being is then judged using the Sword logic, rendered down into its most core functions and its Shade is brought back into the real world. Taking unmakes and remakes the being into the user’s image and binds them to its will. In this case it’s Oryx, the Navigator, the personification of Will, curiosity, and purpose.

[@artemisfowldragon]

@@Xander--gd5lb so it’s something inherent to the universe of Destiny? In that case it completely changes the battle depending on who the aggressor is. If The witness (what I presume to be Oryx?) is coming at the chaos gods, then I’d say he represents a power base approximately on level of something like Be’lakor or that one guy trying to become the 5th chaos god (names are hard, it’s 5 am), but if they’re coming at the witness, then I have the feeling tzeench would very quickly figure it out and start running logical circles to manipulate it to his best use. Might just turn into a stalemate of corrupting each other’s soldiers back and forth, the 4 are very good at that

[@Lavafire1]

I know a good amount of destiny lore, idk nearly as much about Warhammer unfortunately. I would say the light and darkness or the gardener and winnower scale above the chaos gods. As far as I can remember they accidentally created the universe when they were fighting. I’d say the winnower is a much better match for the chaos gods. And the hive gods are probably below the chaos gods but I do think chaos would struggle with them. Auryx ( Oryx name before becoming the taken king) along with his sisters had to fight the ecumene empire. The ecumene decided to engaged is maximum theater overkill to defeat the hive and in that regard they were winning. The hive were completely outmatched, Auryx and his sisters later had a conversation in a throne world as to how they can emerge victorious. One of the suggestions was to infect the ecumenes weaknesses but they are lords of matter and physical law. So even before Auryx got the power to take they were likely fighting an empire that could rival the forerunners from halo. It’s only when Auryx learns the power to take and become Oryx that they completely destroy the ecumene so completely that only in the book of sorrows are they remembered.

[@flame8786]

You should definitely check out byf but next time, think about if anyone could handle the vex in the warhammer universe.

[@Buster-McTunder]

Vex is on the schedule for July 😉

[@santiagoteruel4145]

Don't know much about the taken king, but basing only in what was said in this video, i believe chaos would win. Up to what we know, only revived beings with chaos are undead (atleast in 40k, fantasy has a wider arrange of undead chaos troops, but there are still a lot of living ones as well), so while maybe nurgle maybe couldn't normally get ascencion, the other chaos gods could in theory do so with greater demons. And they still could just raise another talented space marine sjch as abbadon and empower him to kill the taken king (given, it wouldn't be easy, but chaos has a shitload of champions without even working together, so i think they could piece together one or two). Also, i don't know about upper ranks and how the creed works, but up to what i know, chaos can not only bind souls in order to not let them be corrupted, but if it is about the chaos gods themselves, they can do so forcefully, or also alter the mind of the target to achieve that (not sure how it works for khorne, but he seems to be capable of inducing a battle rage just with paying keen attention to a place), so i worst of cases they could maybe, and just maybe, snatch a champion of the other side and use it to kill theking. I don't know about the taken king, so i can't say if he could kill the chaos gods for sure, but the reason that i don't believe he could is just because if he is at emperor level pre heresy, i can't see how he would be enougth, taking into account, even the emperor with all its technology and migth found impossible to kill the chaos gods and therefore planned to use the webway to issolate humanity while avoiding feading chaos, and then making humanity capable of not depending in chaos. If i am ignoring something about the destiny characters, feel free to correct me, it would be fun to learn about the character

[@Kriloth]

I’d still give it to chaos either way. Characters like Drach'nyen that benefit from the ruinous powers are too much of a curve ball. But even if it’s just strict chaos factions aligned entities vs taken forces I struggle to see a Taken W. My pea brain could be wrong ofcourse

[@aspopulvera9130]

what about the souls that slaneesh had taken from the eldars themselves won't he able to use it against slaneesh?

[@SoulRuninFree]

Yeah honestly I don’t think oryx would stand a chance because of some of the Whaley shit Tzeenchian sorcerers could do.

[@lightbearerslamp5870]

I’m not sure if you meant would or wouldn’t, but Oryx has the resistances and immunities to shrug off anything short of a chaos god. The greatest of greater demons or demon princes, Magnus for instance, could put up a good fight but it would be pretty close to even. Via the VS Battles Wiki, he scales to tier 2-C. The chaos gods Tier Zero, Magnus is 1-A in the Warp. The question is whether Oryx’s throne world counts as the Warp. Seeing as Oryx has control of natural and causal laws within his Throne I would guess not. Even then, directly comparing feats and abilities between Oryx and Magnus is close. But random sorcerers don’t have the feats or abilities to punch up to that level.

[@SoulRuninFree]

@@lightbearerslamp5870 no however even random sorcerers could Probaly take on thousands of taken. the main problem I see with oryx fighting them is that both sides can’t kill each other permanently. And also are you sure because oryx really is not that powerful, because a guardian in D2 would be Probaly equal to something like a really blessed chaos follower. And it only took six to kill him so I kinda doubt that. Of coarse I also don’t think he would be to take chaos followers because their already owned their soul already belongs to the chaos gods I doubt he’d be to take them. Especially with how being taken works.

[@lazyvoid7107]

​@@SoulRuninFreeThe only reason Orxy was defeated by using logic

[@SoulRuninFree]

@@lazyvoid7107 what exactly do you mean.

[@weaboojones2178]

@@lightbearerslamp5870bro is using vsbattles to powerscale oh hell nay

[@MW2proification]

I would say that the Oryx would make it past majority of the Chaos powers apart from the Chaos Gods themselves as they are beyond the boundaries of dimensions, space, time and logic.

[@risenbow6592]

Should riven be counted in the forces of the taken? She was taken by oryx

[@lemmiwinks200]

Yes. Oryx took her and just kinda left her whilst he was dealing with the litteral god killers knocking at his door

[@individual7046]

When it comes to the Destiny universe vs 40K I would like to see the following: Cabal vs the Imperium( mainly because every weapon the cabal use is a advance bolter) Xivos Hive vs Angron and the world Eaters Savathun and her Lucent Hive Vs Mangus and the thousand sun's Oryx vs Abadon and a black crusade Witness vs a single chaos god The Winower vs all the chaos gods The Vex vs everything that isn't Demons Fallen vs Tau or Dark Elder( which ever faction in 40k is the weakest) I think these match ups will be the fairest.

[@somerandomdude7785]

Vex vs Necrons Hive vs Orks Cabal vs Tau Empire Scorn vs Dark Eldar

[@Wormy_fren]

Considering that Magnus and his boys generally get cut down by the wolves every month or so Savathun against Magnus is going to be a one sided stomp.

[@axt_4254]

About the winower, sure we dont know much about its strength but unless the chaos gods can survive a universal destruction then the winower wins, we dont even know if the winower can be harmed. But knowing guardians they will turn it into a gun

[@heerosagayuy2143]

It was the winnower not the witness that gave oryx the ability to taken

[@danteuchiha7304]

I mean what about Be’Lakor? He is his own man essentially

[@chickendmac9085]

To be honest I’d say chaos wins, not because I love chaos more or anything, but simply because of how logistically it’s almost impossible to win against them without knowing about them. Oryx could go on a campaign to end all life through sword logic, but that empowers khorn for he is basically war. Slaanesh is desire, so it would only affect the brood n such of the hive, and maybe oryx. Tzeentch and Nurgle are more ambiguous. What I’m saying is that the hive existing would permit them to continue existing, albeit probably to a weaker degree if oryx completes his campaign. Lastly a more direct fight would result in oryx losing ( as in if he goes into the warp ), an indirect fight is more of a 50/50 for either side. Good variety of variables honedtly

[@gorilla9551]

Taken vs corruption

[@lazyvoid7107]

They both are corruption

[@xSRxVICIOUSx]

I would want oryx and the hive as a faction so bad. Oryx would fit right in as a chaos god

[@TheViv06]

Next matchup should definitely be Gamesworkshop vs Eververse

[@Buster-McTunder]

Who’s more greedy? God I wish I came up with this idea

[@TheViv06]

@@Buster-McTunder it’s all yours bud I’m not gonna make the video 🤣. Would love to see it too

[@sinleszz]

Im honestly more curious how the more 3rd party Destiny Factions would be in the 40K universe, like Rasputin? How would the imperium of man utilise him if he lets them anyway, because Im less knowledgeable on WH40K I dont know how their world destroying tech would compare to the warminds. Other factions include Riven and the Ahamkara with wish magic, The awoken rituals Mara Sov can cast. Even less combat effective factions like Clovis Bray I and exoscience where would they be if not immediately destroyed?

[@tuyet4841]

I mean, the guardians are literally undead and became ascendant, so I wouldn’t say that’s disqualifying. That being said I don’t think it really changes the outcome as the winnower is infinitely more powerful than the witness to the point where I’m pretty sure it’s capable of taking anything less than the chaos gods themselves, and tbh possibly even them

[@raikenette]

If Swordlogic applies to Hardship/Darwinism then Nurgle & his forces would be unable to ascend, but Tzeentch & Khorne & Slaneesh definitely could. Their followers can still be alive, and have souls. Now to point out Chaos whipping up a sufficiently powerful mortal coil. They just need a new Horus, I choose Perturabo. He's still Chaos Undivided, still alive and not dramatically far removed from Horus' power level as a 'mortal'.

[@skylarflageolle2103]

Warp abilities are ripped from some cultists and marines for some reasons and wouldn't being taken rip them from there chaos god?

[@slideways_sideways1803]

Yep

[@HighmageDerin]

Orick's no no he can't however the witness might actually stand the chance of taking on the Demons although I don't know that he would stand much of a chance against the chaos guards anything less powerful than them however the witness has a very good chance of dominating

[@lemmiwinks200]

The witness would absolutely destroy the warhammer universe. He makes all the chaos 'gods' combined look feeble. The witness subjugated one of the creators of the universe without breaking a sweat. He made a physical manifestation of a concept submit. Ontop he's got all of Oryx hax dialed up too 100 and and that's not including his disciples or the dead. He'd role prime necron and probably role the C'tan too. If he was around for the war in heaven. It would just be everyone trying to stop the witness.

[@noahdaglio9362]

BRING ME YOUR TITHES!!! AIAT!!!!! AIAT!!!!!

[@nathengriffiths-holland7038]

So I personally believe the hive would make a perfect enemy to warhammer 40k. They are essentially unstoppable with out paracusal means and while they posses nothing that can match a Titan in fire power they have waaaaay better space travel and a knight is compatible to a space marine in physics abilities.

[@lemmiwinks200]

Tbf, a group of 100 wizards, litterally melted an entire planet just by singing. It's in one of the shadow keep lore cards. The Hive have more than enough firepower when they don't even need ships to destroy planets

[@nathengriffiths-holland7038]

@@lemmiwinks200 true they have more power in a technical way but a hive ground force is going to really struggle against imperial knights and titans in terms of war fare however they really make up for this in their rituals and ability to go anywhere if they have a strong enough leader with them. A Titan doesn’t matter if the hive can just dig or teleport into your city or on to your world and the throne worlds make it almost impossible for the hive to be fully wiped out because the witness couldn’t even truly break into one so I doubt the chaos gods can

[@lemmiwinks200]

@@nathengriffiths-holland7038 I mean the witness litterally subjugated one of the two gods of creation in the destiny universe. So he just kinda ragdolls 40k regardless . In regards to the Hive. Those rituals are stupidly powerful. From draining a god of creation of its life, to melting planets, to making every Hive basically unkillable. Then again the Hive could just drop millions of phogoths onto a battlefield and basically have magic rage fuelled knights that shoot eye lasers I'd say it balances out nicely tbh

[@nathengriffiths-holland7038]

@@lemmiwinks200 ya the witness would most likely go into the warp and see everything it hates and considering the warp is a realm where mind has power over matter I can see the witness twisting it to fit its own purpose. As for the hive ya those rituals are the big threat because if done correctly they could kill entire planets in a matter of hours also their ship warfare should not be overlooked as the hive tent to use planets as vessels. I kid you not the hive have war worlds where they do nothing but kill eachother till they come close enough to another world where they start the invasion

[@dredgenauryx3382]

I think the best way to scale the hive gods is to compare them to the Eldar Gods in their prime. They are gods of a single race but that race controls or at least has devoured multiple galaxies and is as depended on their gods as their gods are on them. How I can't recall howexactly the Eldar Gods in their prime compare to the Chaos Gods in the current setting but my guess would be that they are still noticeably weaker. I believe that Oryx and his siblings would be powerful enough not to get outright eaten by the Chaos Gods but not powerful enough to do anything against them either.

[@Buster-McTunder]

This is not a bad comparison. I think Oryx (especially on the path he was on) could easily rival Khaine at full power at the very least.

[@fabiochristiaan1128]

What game are you playign in the background, it looks cool af!

[@Buster-McTunder]

Which one?

[@Muffled83]

Out of curiosity, do you think you might try to do a colab with my name is byf and have an episode were the you two talk about each other's game's lore and and see what might be missing in yiur analysis?

[@Buster-McTunder]

That’d be awesome but Byf is a couple magnitudes up from my level

[@isaiahburns9140]

You really want to introduce the Grim Dark elements of Destiny’s setting to that of 40K’s? Idk… lmfao

[@EVER_PRINCE]

Let’s go Buster boy

[@jannikflessner6480]

I think Savathun would be the only hive god, that would be truly incapable of defeating Chaos, bwcause her Domain is trickery and deception and Zentch has minions that can see the past and the future and the Guardians used the past to weaken her.

[@adey4139]

If the fifth chaos, God was cannon and was in part of Warhammer 40k then chaos will win that God is known as malice, the God of destruction of being that doesn’t want anything, but the end of everything including chaos if he existed in 40k the chaos. God would win, but he doesn’t so I agree with your state.

[@ItsDaKoolaidDude]

Ehh, but he doesn't exist.

[@adey4139]

That’s my point if he did, he would win, but he’s not real he doesn’t exist so they lose

[@lostnemesis]

Against the whole universe he would do insanely well considering as people brought up in your last video him walking by people took them, he didn't really have to put in any effort if he was at a distance he could still take you, but against the chaos gods... That is more nebulous because paracausal power in destiny proved to be something that he couldn't really take. he could take everyone outside of the warp and there is an interesting question that you didn't really catch on in the video The traveler instead of even waiting to see if the ghost was fine just killed it that could mean the ghost could have fallen, (Hive sorcery has also made guardians completely fall which did take time but not a lot in the grand scheme of things) If you threw him into the warp right at the start he would probably have a rough time, he would basically have to be firing off that giant fuck you AOE constantly, and I don't really think you would have to worry about the taken falling to chaos. Because the only reason they have changed the leaders is because our dumbass player guardian did not take the taken for ourselves so the seat was empty, and it doesn't seem like you can untake anything because otherwise that would have been something the guardians would have done to try to placate the fallen by getting back the kell of the house of stone, If he was just in the universe he would be one of the big movers and shakers. He would be everyone problem because he would instantly be a more annoying tyranid threat because he could be just nearby and then take all of your space Marines and all your guardsman and sisters of insert people (most people think of Battle or silence take a pick) and then suddenly you have world going dark, the only caveat to his invasions is sometimes people get away.

[@thomaspurol9322]

Vex vs Necrons

[@GunplaShock]

Honestly I think it would a stalemate

[@rwdyrose3085]

You must clarify one guardians can be taken on multiplications we've literally turned ourselves into taken The difference is we don't have the mind control or the soulless personality of taken and the abilities they got

[@rwdyrose3085]

Did you really just say chaos could corrupt the taken That's like saying I can persuade a pebble to move The taken are literally mindless sludge they're not even shadows they are so mindless to the point that literally in the game sometimes when a taken even gets remotely smart they make that person a leader even at that leader is dumb they are literally the definition of point that something and we will go towards it you can literally tell the taken to jump in a black hole and they would do it you can literally tell the taken to grab their own sword and stab themselves with it and they would do it without a leader they are mindless and if they have a leader the only way you corrupt The taken is to corrupt the person who's controlling them and trying to do that to oryx is it literally trying to tell eskinor from the seven deadly sins anime to Neil he will see himself higher than the cast gods themselves I'm not saying orgs is uncorruptible but they going to have to put some elbow grease to try to corrupt him a good example of how corrupting oryx would go is how the chaos gods try to corrupt a nightlord space Marine that space where I'm literally told all the four of the chaos gods to basically go f*** themselves and they did

[@rwdyrose3085]

Can chaos be taken low ranking chaos demons no high ranking chaos demons would be cool but no chaos space Marines on the other hand corn nurgle chaos undivided and The purple stripper Yes tit snitch some of them not all because in lore they're dust or something ghost or whatever I don't actually remember

[@rwdyrose3085]

Oh surprised you got something correct Yes chaos cannot be ascended because one The chaos gods and the demons work on a philosophy a magical one but a philosophy nonetheless that will never let them correlate with the sword logic space Marines is a 50/50 because 50% they do their own thing 50% they have a demon gods influence in their head that makes them unable to do their own thing so they would try to become ascendant but fail nonetheless. And yes I'm just going to put this out here oryx would actually be capable of slain the chaos gods BUT it would take some time for him to get to that point because the whole cliche about destiny is guardians killing gods and lowerwise oryx was not that far from becoming a god himself and then from my previous text his way of gaining power is similar to the chaos gods but without the downsides because oryx doesn't actually follow a concrete philosophy he has one and sticks to it but he's not concrete like the chaos gods are literally a manifestation of a concept That's why they cannot change because that would be changing their literal existence

[@BigBubbaCave]

Personally, I don't think that you have to kill the universe to kill the chaos gods. It's shown that excess and satisfaction existed before Slaneesh. And it's stated that the Eldar can kill her if they get all the soul stones and do their Eldar things. It's also said that the current chaos gods are simply manifestations themselves and don't represent a rule of the universe really. So in that logic, you can technically kill the chaos gods and not have to sacrifice the universe. That's at least my understanding of WH40K lore and laws

[@Revision-Harrowed]

As ever, I am a bit late to one of these videos but, lets see how this one goes and what commentary I have. Immediately, the power to create Taken is *not* from the Witness. While the Witness does also wield the power to take, it is the Winnower that granted this ability to Oryx (And presumably the Witness as well). We know this from the Grimoire cards "XXXI: battle made waves" of the Books of Sorrow, where the narrator describes that "And it arrived, the Deep itself." It is of course important to note that Oryx is the narrator of the books of Sorrow -- For the most part -- but the following conversation recorded in "XXXII: Majestic, Majestic" does not align with anything said by the Witness *ever*. Even the Witness itself describes its being as distinct from the Winnower and instead calls itself the "First knife", and the "Deep itself" as described by Oryx ascribes to an entirely different ideology which is further elaborated upon in Unveiling, and more recently in the Nacre ship's lore tab. This is an important distinction because while the Witness is immensely powerful in its own right, it is not the Darkness / Deep itself, merely an extremely powerful entity that uses the powers of Darkness. As far as we know, the Witness never actually had any interest in Oryx whatsoever, and only seems to have ever interacted with Savathun, and Oryx never references the Witness at all either. In regards to the Taken; While it is a fair assumption at surface level to make that the Taken are transformed within the ascendant plane, that is never stated *anywhere*. The original grimoire only ever says that "an aperture opens, like a jaw, and swallows a living thing. It passes into - another place. Later, it returns.", and we know that it is highly likely to *not* be Oryx that speaks to the Taken as they are transformed by whatever power alters them from the dialogue used when they are spoken to in the individual grimoire cards -- While obviously there have always been differences between how Oryx is depicted in game and how he is in the Books of Sorrow, there's still quite a gap between the way he talks there and when the Taken are being spoken to while they're transformed / changed by the process enacted upon them. Right from the beginning, it was made clear that "The Taken serve Oryx. But I think those jaws lead elsewhere.", and while you might be tempted to think it is the Witness that is transforming them we see very clearly in the Final Shape that they taken they create are different and have resonance in their eyes, unlike the white orbs for eyes that regular taken have. Additionally, the Taken Grimoire cards never once have the narrator character refer to itself at all, and it appears to be an omniscient thing -- Something the Witness is not, but more importantly, when speaking to Knights it belittles their betrayal of the Sword Logic: "So you practice your guard: you call up walls to protect you. You betray the sword logic. You compromise the totality of your violence. Why protect your ground when you could take the enemy’s?" This would be out of character for the Witness, as it is actually opposed to the Sword Logic. If I had to guess, I would assert that it is most likely the Winnower itself that reshapes these beings, and that they are cast into the Deep, not the Ascendant plane. Additional point for the above: When Quoria, Blade Transform -- A Vex that had intruded upon Oryx's throne before it had been sculpted into the Dreadnaught -- was taken it is described as having seen "A light like stars." (Taken from XLIII: End of Failed Timeline), while in the Season of the Lost Dialogue for the Ager's sceptre quest it is said that it is: "Rare to see stars in the Ascendant Plane" by Mara Sov, who not only has her very own Throne World but also was in the Sea of Screams for an extended period of time after being "Killed" by Oryx. 1/5

[@Revision-Harrowed]

Additionally, the Ascendant plane does not run parallel to regular reality. As described in Season of Lost, by Petra Venj: "Imagine the universe as a set of coins, stacked one on top of the other. The top coin is our reality. The bottom: the Ascendant Plane. Between them lies an intermeshing of ever-shifting pathways known as the Ley Lines." While their understanding of reality may be flawed, the Awoken have been using the Ley Lines for hundreds of years and this explanation has yet to be contradicted. It is not much of a difference, I know, but I feel the distinction should be made -- There is a *between* when it comes to Ascendant and Real-Space, and they do not entirely overlap. Back to the Taken. Targets subjected to being Taken are not "convinced." While the Grimoire does depict them as being spoken to, there is no argument to be had -- Nor any devotion instilled. As described in the Osmiomancy Gauntlets Lore Tab: "Possibility. It exists within each life, an expanse and myriad of complexity explored openly through the philosophical constructs of choice and free will. Even when life ends, possibility carries forward in the lives touched and the projects created. When the actions of another end a life, Humans often refer to this act as killing or "taking a life." But where killing brings about a singular conclusion, Oryx's "Taking" was quite the opposite: he imposed a singular origin and all decisions that followed. He shaped the causality, the very history of another being, by force of will-recasting it into fanatical loyalty. In short, possibility never existed." And; "Taking involves reforming matter in a self-contained reality, where the creator defines past, present, and future;" Also comes from the very same Lore Tab. It is not just mind control, or a convincing argument like something similar to the logic plague depicted in another of Bungie's titles in Halo -- It is the forceful rewriting of possibilities themselves, of a creature's very existence. This sort of weaponry is not new in Destiny either, as practically every faction has at some point wielded an ontological weapon; That meaning weaponry that determines whether or not its target even exists. That aside, it's never elaborated *why* the Taken look like they do, but they aren't just covered in a membrane of blight -- or at the very least, what that description means needs to be said, that being: "My Hidden tell me that the Taken shine with seething, negative light. As if the universe is curling up around them. As if they radiate some pathology that decays into our world as nothingness..." As described in the Taken's original grimoire card. Their ability to influence reality around themselves passively is obscene, as a few squads of Taken were almost able to destroy the entire Vex collective within the Vault of Glass by existing there, to the point where the Vex had to lure in Guardians to save them as they could see no other future where they would be able to exist after that attack by the Taken. While it is true that Oryx has never been shown to just take entire planets at once like the Witness has, it should still be noted that "Smaller scale" still means "Was able to take hundreds of thousands of troops across an entire solar system singlehandedly without ever even stepping foot on a battlefield himself from multiple planets away." Just so that everyone knows that. 2/5

[@Revision-Harrowed]

Guardians can be taken. Just, outright, we can be. The Light grants us an ability to *resist* being Taken, but we are not immune to it as Guardians. One obvious and immediate example of this is Sloan, from Season of the Deep who is partially Taken, and has to constantly ward off Xivu's will. Another example is when Oryx, in his boss fight in the Destiny 1 campaign, attempts to Take the Player with his attack that causes the status effect of "Grasp of the King". We see the usual aperture appear, and the process begins to drain us of our Light -- Depicted by our Super being taken away entirely -- And we have to actively interrupt the attack by attacking Oryx to stagger him. The referenced event of a Ghost being "Taken" is, I assume, in reference to when Rhulk attempted to poach ghosts from Savathun's throne world to have one bond with him -- There is never any reference of Rhulk attempting to use the Power to Take upon the Ghost. The most we have to go off is the Ghost asking Rhulk not to grip its eye (presumably at least), with the dialogue of: "Please don't remove that. I like the expressiveness it lends me." If it is instead referring to Targe's interaction with the Witness, again, nothing in the scene suggests that that is what was intended: Targe is just destroyed, so that Zavala can be absorbed into the Witness' consciousness, but Ikora and Cayde and Targe's detonation pull him from the Darkness before that can happen. The Light has been corrupted and blighted several times, too. Examples would be the massive orbs of corrupted light found in the Kingsfall Raid used for Golgoroth Damage phases and dropped by the Light Eater ogres. The Traveller's only interruption was when Rhulkw as trying to force a ghost to partner with him. Whether or not Taken have souls is... contentious. They're described as being hollowed out mindless husks, and we never get a specific statement either way, so ultimately you can assume whichever you'd like but -- It's best to make it clear that we do not know if them being "hollowed out" includes them being soulless. The problem with Chaos corruption is that every single Taken under his command resonates with Oryx's will. They are like extensions of him, much like his echoes. As described by the Osmiomancy Gloves lore tab, his will shapes every aspect of their being while they are in real-space. Not only that, but in "XXX: a golden amputation" the result of a being having been taken is described as follows: "On the seventh pace, the Perfect Raven comes out of Oryx’s wound, and she spreads her wings across Taishibeth. Never again is a Taishibethi child born. She is perfect, she enacts the will of Oryx." Ultimately, Chaos would have to be able to subvert the will of Oryx to have any influence over his troops which is rather... unlikely. As for Oryx attempting to take the forces of Chaos... Soullessness may not be anywhere near a defence. The process is never described as being manipulation of the soul, but of causality, of a way of rewriting reality after abducting a creature. The argument of them lacking free will is pointless as it does not matter to the process of taking, as Vex lack free will and have no resistance whatsoever to the process. While yes you can attribute this vulnerability of the Vex to other factors, it still stands that the process of taking is not just simple mind control or persuasion even if their will is ultimately washed away in the end. While a powerful enough Psyker or Demon may be able to ward off the abduction process, were they to be abducted successfully there would be no salvation from them being moved closer to the Final Shape -- Unless I'm missing something here it definitely sounds like the hordes of Chaos would be quite vulnerable to the process. but I may be missing something here as I obviously am not nearly as familiar with Warhammer as I am with Destiny. On the above point actually, when a Vex mind is taken -- Seditious Mind Grimoire card for reference -- It is described as being; "The great fortress of your thoughts has been breached, your unity broken. The network around and within you lies ruptured. You are cut out from the fabric, a hole in the whole." Which matters as it means that the manifestations of Chaos, Demons and Primarchs alike, may well be able to have the physical bodies they inhabit ripped away and taken -- Leaving only what remains in the abstract warp every time. You could certainly make a case for them being partially vulnerable as a result, even if they'd be able to reconstitute at a later date elsewhere away from the part of themselves that was subsumed by Oryx's will and the power of the Deep. 3/5

[@Revision-Harrowed]

The Hive would not be very easily corrupted, as well, at least in my opinion. There's a few reasons for this -- firstly, their fanatical devotion to Oryx. You could make a case for Oryx getting a massive warp-power boost upon entering the Warhammer universe due to his entire Hive viewing him as a God-King, but regardless it is the case that very few Hive ever actually dissent from his will and even those that do are quickly snuffed out or punished. The few cases we know of dissent are: - Alak-Hul, The Dark blade... Who Oryx wanted to try to slay him, and who Oryx had to leave without any tasks for him to even try his rebellion. - Malok, a child of Savathun who was sent to poison Oryx and betrayed them both and was immediately taken by Oryx. - Mengoor and Cra'adug, who did not Tithe to Oryx and had a curse put upon them as a result alongside one of them being Taken as punishment. So while it is true that Hive do sometimes have their own agendas, their worshipping of the Deep is a deeply engrained thing -- Not only do they have these beliefs impressed upon them from the moment they are spawned but their loyalty to their gods is to the extent where it may actually be a psychic connection. At the very least, in Savathun's case, every single one of her Hive that we captured in the Season of the Risen's Psiops had manifestations of her in their actual mindscapes defending them from intrusion, and when treachery is detected within Oryx's brood it is quickly and efficiently snuffed out. Any who began to worship chaos would either be taken, or outright put to the sword and the brood would just move on. And especially as Shriekers serve as giant watchful eyes that let Oryx observe his brood, and the chain of tithing forces them to keep feeding him destruction, it would not go unnoticed. Two knights not feeding him the destruction he was owed after one battle was noticed and dealt with by him personally taking one and cursing them both. Oryx does not tolerate subterfuge whatsoever. He's also been used to dealing with Savathun's schemes for millennia, too, so no one's tricking him easily. 4/5

[@Revision-Harrowed]

I would like to say that Oryx has a second win condition past ending the universe/killing every single living being in the Warhammer Galaxy (A feat I believe him to be quite capable of), and that would be that the Daughters of Oryx alone are actually able to kill Axioms. They can rewrite reality and unmake truths of the universe. And, Oryx is an entirely different league... his blade, WIllbreaker, or his magic -- His staking of his own Soul as proof that he is strongest in this space -- may well be able to end any of the chaos gods despite their existence as ideas and concepts and aspects of the collective unconscious. There is a foundation for that sort of feat, even as soon as with Akka who could just deny a truth and make it become a lie with words alone. A note: We did not prove our ascendance through the slaying of Crota. We actually had to create a bypass to the barriers in Oryx's dreadnaught by stealing some of Crota's essence during his funeral held by the Deathsingers, and it was that that allowed the player Guardian to finally face Oryx. Earlier in the campaign we were outright rejected by a portal when we attempted to pursue the deeper regions of Oryx's throne. As a result, any Demon or Demon primarch able to slay the members of Oryx's court should be able to access the inner parts of the Dreadnaught, if not immediately then after analysing the problem for some time. ..Of course, I hold the belief that no one would actually be able to kill Oryx after breaching his throne, but, they could certainly figure out a way to try. All this is to say... Like the Ecumene before them, let the entire galaxy be devoured by the sword's edge. Let the gods of chaos be cleaved in twain. Aiat. "This is my inheritance, my estate: eternity, infinity, the whole universe beneath my sword. This is what I rule: forever and a blade." -- Oryx, the Taken King, Lord of Shapes, First Navigator. 5/5

[@Aj-py8en]

1 small correction about the nuance of the Winnower/Witness distinction. The Witness is certainly the one who granted Oryx the power to take. The biggest evidence is comparing how Oryx communed with the deep. He basically created a proxy with an unborne Ogre that the deep could inhabit while in the ascendant plane. Calus performed a near identical ritual with the locus of communion aboard the glykon, as a means to speak with the Witness. Even with the new raid lore it only proves that the Witness is the active force of darkness. The Winnower is an impartial observer who doesn't interact with the game directly. It's the First Knife that shapes the garden, and as the Witness said, the Winnower cannot decide that shape. The Winnower is a concept personified with a character. Beyond that though there's just the nature of what the Witness was as a character. It is the voice in the darkness. It was Bungie giving the big bad a name and a face, and letting it have a more important role in the story. It's a retcon used to fix the muddy and inconsistent nature of the darkness from early destiny, where they didn't know what the darkness would be. The Books of Sorrow, Unveiling, Inspiral, and I believe the newest raid lorebook are all written by the same author and they all work together to reveal the nature of that Voice in the Darkness. Obviously that isn't represented in the lore directly, and it can't without actual rewrites to old d1 lore. So what is the winnower? The Winnower is first and foremost, a character created by the Witness to explain real events and things. What it represents is primarily the concept of reduction and simplification itself, but it also represents ideologies of the witness and the civilization that created it, the history of the veil and the relation to the traveler, and while technically not the Winnower itself, the first knife it wields represents paracausal darkness. The best way to put it would be like this: The Winnower IS the power to Take. It is the ultimate representation of reduction, taking something and cutting away its weaknesses, cutting away branching possibilities until only 1 exists, and cutting away at its very being until it is literally made of nothing. The Witness is the one who granted Oryx the power to take. The altar of reflection clearly tells us that with how it describes the Tablets of Ruin. But the actual power itself was not created by the Witness, only used by the Witness. Oryx and the Witness use the "power to move worlds" to transport things to a dimension with the Winnower, and using their own wills they choose what shape the Taken will have after the process. "The Winnower cannot choose what shape the Knife carves" Sorry for the very long comment but I've seen a tonne of misunderstandings in this whole comment section and figured this place was the best to clear things up.

[@somerandomdude7785]

I would like to see Destiny Guardians pitted against every Force Users in Star Wars.

[@individual7046]

The closest thing to a jedi in the destiny universe is a psion flayer. A psion flayer has the ability to move moon's out of orbits and use them as a missile. Very few jedi in the star wars universe could acomplish a feat like that. So I'd say since guardians can defeat psion flayers and flayers equal an elite jedi the guardians should be able to defeat most jedi in the star wars galaxy(either the exception of those that go into hiding)

[@somerandomdude7785]

@@individual7046 Force Users also count Sith, not just Jedi. Imagine Guardians going against the strongest and infamous Sith Lords in Legends, such as Darth Revan and Darth Nihilus.

[@ItsDaKoolaidDude]

@@somerandomdude7785 Revan i feel wouldn't be that much of a match, regardless of Darth or Jedi... He's access to both Light and Dark sides and has great command over both, but that's not really within the realm of saying he's the strongest considering Vitiate slapping him enough times. He's just infamous and famous because he brings *_thoughts and considerations_* about the Force than his strength. Nihilus would likely have been treated similarly to an area of effect version of Crota, requiring a specific macguffin either made by Paracausal Light/Darkness, idk and not 100% certain. Scion would certainly be a problem, and either it takes unyielding firepower while denying him any success to just make him bored enough that its just not worth trying anymore or a Deus Ex Machina where he's talked into giving up on holding on occurs. Vitiate would be one hell of a problem, likely on the same case as Oryx, Rhulk or Nezarec (non-Root of Nightmares ofc) as far as I can give the comparison. Vader would've been an electric snap, sadly. His own suit hampers enough that a couple of Arc-classed guardians would overwhelm, if not just two Titan missiles and an Arcstaff Hunter dogging him. Legends, that'd ramp him up back over to what I said about Vitiate, if a little further towards The Witness. Though he wouldn't be on the same exact lvl tho. A good number of other well known or well-feared Sith would likely have just horrible trouble dealing with Guardians due to their reliance more towards using either the Force or Lightsabers (which guardians are likely to just laugh at due to either Warlocks and Hunters playing the power/mobile game or Titans just being crayon-crazy stupid tough to copy that one trooper eating Malgus' lightning in the SWTOR "Hope" trailer with better success) Sidious.... Well movie-siddy, just throw a warlock and he just crumples, even if you added the Sequels in there he folds like an omlette. Legends-wise, that'd put him well up there with Dul Incaru, "The Eternal Return". A tad more difficult to kill but within the realm of "would you just stay dead already?" Would *_love_* to see how a Sith would react to seeing a Worldline Zero wielding Guardian or an Eager Edge sword-wielding Guardian literally zipping up to them mid-swing. Especially a *_sword skating_* guardian with either of those.

[@VioletSky16]

@@ItsDaKoolaidDudeword line zero is so broken lore wise 😭