Can Truly ANYONE Become a Smash Pro?

[@mitchellswartzell3027]

"Not anyone can be a cook, but a cook can come from anywhere" - Ratatouille

[@crazycardenas6417]

Baguette Boy I love that movie

[@SuperScopeRawks]

Its more like, not EVERYONE can be a great but greatness can come from anyone.

[@crazycardenas6417]

SuperScopeRawks I hate that

[@softelocke491]

No it’s “well everyone can cook but not everyone should”

[@Christmasmoose714]

Yes

[@RabanoDoom]

Tbh I think if anyone has a 7 foot brain they have bigger problems than their smash ranking

[@RandomishToons]

jacksfilms is probably jimmy neutron then

[@prism3367]

LMAO

[@masterwings50]

bIg BrAiN MOOD

[@barrackoli]

Seven foot brain!? Is the Xenomorph Queen coming on the up-and-up in their locals or something!?

[@MD.1111]

"If you're born 7 feet tall"

[@anzeg-]

Man that would be harsh labor huh

[@zangetsu5549]

That would hurt

[@solarwolf1336]

I.H Cloud - Nah, all you’ll need is a sea section from head to toe

[@brisingrxm6022]

So what you’re telling us is to think outside the “box” and stay “hungry”?

[@williamwesner4268]

What most people leave out when they talk about improving at smash, or any other skill for that matter, is the fact that better technique and decision making only comes after expanding your *awareness*. If you aren't aware of the situation, it doesn't matter how well you can space your fairs because you won't be able to see the opening coming in enough time to react. Low level awareness starts with understanding your character's own movement, then once that is second nature you should work on being able to simulate your opponent's movement at the same in your head. If you can keep maximum situational awareness throughout the game, then you will start to see openings in time to react.

[@1111Element]

wow thanks man

[@TheMasterBlaze]

Straight up facts dude. I always say I'm pretty good, but I just can't operate as fast as the pros do. It's gonna' take me actually learning my opponents in addition to the game. That's a long road, but everything you said is correct; beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[@jellyfish4816]

It takes a lot of time to be honest. I’m not a pro, I’m decent, but I don’t have the reaction time that pros do

[@crazyholyfather]

Also emotions. Learning to deal with them and control them during a competitive match is key to defeat high level players. Learn to adapt, improve after each set while maintaining the emotions under control is actually underestimated. Concentration, adaptation, momentum and confidence are the key words in any competitive game and they are hard to master by anyone.

[@eknapp70]

yeah but meta awareness doesn't always mean you can act on it. for example someone could know every german case and still not use the right one when they speak.

[@GabetheFrog_]

Love you Juan! Keep up the good work! You’ll win an online tourney soon!

[@kusaribruh]

LMAOOO

[@GabetheFrog_]

Richie Brodsky ?

[@Speckter_]

He won already.

[@atlasgalor3583]

wow the audacity to say that acting like your a fan but didn’t know he’s already won one

[@kusaribruh]

chicken fingers THATS THE JOKE

[@pasho1602]

"dont let ceilings you think exist limit you. there's always more to do." something about that line just something about it resonates with me

[@Boltizar49]

This whole Twitter thing caught me at a relevant point in my Smash play. See, I’ve been in this rut lately online where I’ve started choking pretty hard, losing games I feel like I would have had in the bag if I didn’t royally screw myself up. I’ve been feeling bad, like everyone else is getting better and I’m staying the same. My w/l isn’t actually that much worse when I look at the numbers, but the impact feels bigger if that makes sense. So basically I’m the perfect target for this mindset “you’re not going to be as good, everybody is better than you, any work you put in doesn’t matter.” ESAM and hbox really help with this message that the mindset is bullshit and if anything I should be practicing combos and using resources MORE because that potential is still there. It really, really helps to hear that. Part of it is age. I see all of these pro players and the only one older than me is Mew2King. I worry that my potential to keep growing is going away rapidly. I look at what you guys were able to do with your time and I regret not doing it. The take away I’m getting from you guys is “then start now.” It does help, it really does.

[@mecuriasu]

Don’t let the age thing discourage you, in the FGC there are plenty of successful pro-players that are older. For example, in regards to Dragon Ball Fighterz Goichi and Kazunoko are in their 30s and both are very successful.

[@Skapes11238]

All mentality. And don't get too beat up about online either, it is what it is. I play very read based especially at high % situations with reading get up options. My great reaction time does not translate to online almost at all because of lag. Just keep pressing forward.

[@DurzoGuile]

If you want this kind of motivation in form of a book, try reading "Talent is overrated" by Geoff Colvin. I swear, that book motivated me quite a bunch. Life changing even.

[@uniqueplatypus7435]

I try to not compare myself to others and focus on my own progress

[@leaffinite2001]

People always leave out the most important factor: environment. Neither talent or effort matters nearly as much if you can only train with cpus and the nearest local is a 2 hr drive one way. Its possible to be good still, but way way way harder.

[@drewkg14]

This is american university garbage. ZERO DOMINATED go watch or read his story. M2k had no friends (by his own account) and used to theory matches with cpu before he ever played a real competitor he DOMINATED. Hbox was working and going to school full time in which he graduated and still competed at the highest level eventually becoming number 1. Your environment is your crutch not your weakness.

[@mojolito]

Drew Graham ...and then there are 10x more examples of people who are good who live in good regions. The average player in Florida is natually gonna be alot better than the average player in Alaska or whatever

[@samwisegamzy]

@blobland even if M2K didnt have very many friends he went to a LOT of tournaments Mew2King is in the "Guinness Book of World Records: Gamers Edition" with the most esports tournament results of any single player.

[@TQo1]

MKLeo is playing Smash in Mexiko vs randoms. Dabuz talked about this too. "I cant beat this guy. Im here playing pros only, giving my best yet I cant for whatever reason beat Leo thats playing randoms on Elite Smash."

[@dilango9761]

I mean, mew2king did only train with cpus and the nearest local was even further out of reach and the man was amazing at his first tourney.

[@prism3367]

i'm so much of a smash addict i read that as "neutral" talent.

[@shalinchada5940]

I have disadvantage talent

[@prism3367]

@@shalinchada5940 LMAO

[@somerandomname1902]

@@shalinchada5940 Bait and punish talent

[@rain_5533]

Shalin Chada time out talent

[@ahmadkazan7994]

I have alot of down B talent,I also have alot of bombing talent.

[@traviscollins7692]

My brain is 7 feet tall

[@S_______D]

My brain is 5 feet tall.

[@ermwhatthescallop]

This is the KZbin account of a lobotomite. I am sending this message on his behalf.

[@BlepSSBU]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard

[@domotron3598]

This is my new favorite quote

[@deorodant_oh-one6875]

Which is so shitty,it's like the universe dictates what I'm innately good at. Pisses me off.

[@prism3367]

​@@deorodant_oh-one6875 patience, dude. that's all it takes. talent doesn't work hard for everyone, so stay patient and slowly become better every day :D

[@lueegee1335]

But when talent works Hard magic happens

[@Deluxe20_TFMA]

What do you do when talent DOES work hard? You are basically fucked it becomes a Michael Jordan situation, natural talent + hard work = No competition for him

[@plant7889]

"TL;DR Some people do have to work harder than others, uh... because of maybe the conceived notion of what talent is, but that amount of work is limitless. That amount of work you can put into something is limitless. You're only limited by I- I guess circumstance, right? If you have no internet or Wi-Fi, yeah, you're not going to get good at the game. If you have no tournaments around you in your area, it's probably going to be near impossible, but if you find a way around your own circumstance, THAT level of work, that is limitless, and that should not be limited to anyone, for any reason. That is all you, and you can be the next best player in the world, if you truly, truly dedicate yourself. Will you be the next best player in the world? No one can say that but you, honestly." -Hungrybox 2020

[@MiguelPereira-yw8rg]

What's the TLDR for this TLDR?

[@zanebullock]

This is more of a transcript of the entire video

[@adewalejosephe4161]

Tldr bro

[@plant7889]

TL;DR for the TL;DR: HBox says that anyone can become really good at smash, but some people will have an easier time than others.

[@brockc4233]

I think m2k had that issue growing up

[@vdubxyz]

I feel like M2K is a good example of this, man grinded more than anyone, out here creating the original frame data stats the hard way and eventually became known as one of the Smash gods.

[@alphachillua8228]

Yeah that is definitely true.

[@aetherblackbolt1301]

An untalented person cannot do what M2K did. It is apparent that he is extremely intelligent, and his frame perfect executions make it clear his maximum reaction time and finger movement are top notch. But due to his life circumstances and asperger's didn't invest them into traditional technical fields. M2K is undeniably talented, but he put in more work hours per week to gain skill faster than others were.

[@masterwings50]

M2K literally came from nothin like he lived in the middle of nowhere and the odds being stacked against is an understatement

[@darklightmotion5534]

@@aetherblackbolt1301 M2K played smash for years before ever entering his first tournament, so Id say its not talent, but skilk and the fact that his environment was very experimental

[@Wheatsolo]

Every Smash god won a super major (Mew2King played before this term meant anything, but cataclysm 3 was stacked) in less than 2 years from their first tournament appearance. This is important because it's a combination of hard work and results. Some have grinded for years, and achieved top ten rankings, but never won a super major. It's probably due to something their missing in their work ethic. Maybe they need to focus on something else holding them back. Insanity is repeating the same thing expecting different results. Recently Plup and Axe have won super majors with more than two years after their first tournament. Their exceptions can be explained. Plup was held back by weak characters and Axe was held back by a character with some bad MUs, a lack of knowledge, and Armada. Once Axe sufficiently developed Pikachus meta, and Armada's absence, he won a super major. I think other players being judged by the two year thing is apt because they picked up characters that had sufficient tech developed. They only had to grind the tech, learn some mind games, and tournament mind set. Mew2King was a tech god before his first tourney, you can watch the documentary, but had literally no idea of mind games which held him back util he learned competive play and made Ken eat his words.

[@EricCabussu]

The truth skill is like a bell curve. Being at the top 1% of something probably requires both talent and effort. People that have talent might get far but without any effort they won't be at the top and vice-versa. That's why watching top players is so fun, they do stuff most human beings can't.

[@DurzoGuile]

Not everyone who has that talent is going to make it too the top. Talent is USELESS without the work put into it. Usually when looking for the top, it is usually like top 2 out of top 10 in a given field. 1% is a bit too much.

[@EricCabussu]

@@DurzoGuile I wrote top 1% as an hyperbole. To mean those at the extreme peak.

[@DurzoGuile]

@@EricCabussu Fair enough, top 1% isn't the extreme, it is more like 1/10 or even 1/10000 of that in some cases. But you are still wrong, a lot of the top players that pull of amazing shit are still just like you and me, just adding the fact that they have spent an ungodly amount of hours practicing and have the right factors for nurturing and honing their craft/skill. If you want a good read on this, try "Talent is Overrated" by Geof Colvin.

[@DurzoGuile]

@@EricCabussu Side note: Not only an ungodly amount of time, but also making that time effective, and that is a true difference.

[@justyntime_]

I thought I’d share some of my thoughts too: I feel like talent and hard work are very similar in that they help you achieve your goal. However, I think of talent as the ability to understand a specific concept faster than the average person, or in this case player. If you understand something faster, it kinda just reduces the amount of hard work you would have had to do to get to that level, which varies from person to person. The big difference between talent and hard work is that hard work is limitless (like hungrybox said) while talent is not. Talent only gives you an advantage to excel faster, but if you don’t put hard work to that talent, you’ll end up staying at the same level or just losing it entirely. Hard work is a must while talent is only available to a selected amount of people. TLDR: I think talent is a cheat code. You could beat the game with no cheat code and just grind, but if you have the cheat code you could win the game by doing less work in the beginning/throughout the game. But even with that cheat code, you still have to play the game because the cheat code doesn’t just auto win for you. Thx for reading! (P.S. I’ve met you before in person hungrybox, when you went to my schools tournament at OCSA.)

[@cookiefps]

anything can be achieved through a certain amount of work, natural talent can just make that work easier for certain people.

[@oatmealmangd]

cookie fn epic

[@paulsalterego8700]

Which means at the highest level of play you need nat talent bc top players putting in the grind. So the answer to this vid is no.

[@oatmealmangd]

PaulSalterEgo nope

[@ishmaelalvarez3837]

Agree

[@traplover6357]

So at the top level, you require natural talent to win. If you're at a local, then hard work alone can win.

[@IBreakGamez]

I have thousands and thousands of hours of smash bros logged since n64 and im GOOD ... above average, but nowhere near a pro level, you can put in the hard work and still not make it, its good and healthy to recognize how far you can take your own talents, Do whats best for yourself and what makes YOU happy.

[@Jerkface7396]

You can put several hours into smash, but if they aren't quality hours then it's pointless. Every minute played should be dedicated to improving and learning from your mistakes. If you keep playing the same way, obviously you're not going to improve. Like you can't be doing the same thing and expect different results, but good point do what makes you happy.

[@IBreakGamez]

@@Jerkface7396 totally agree! Well said

[@Mari-lg1wk]

I needed to read this, thank you

[@zacharybouck9769]

You always owe it yo yourself to see how far your skills take you. You wont be the best off of natural talent. Dedication and hard work is so important if you are passionate about something. You can always raise your ceiling, you can always improve if you put in the work

[@mow123]

@@Jerkface7396 Whats good practice? trying to short hop with fox or giving up on fox because you can't short hop? Why did hbox play fox then stop... didn't want to put in the effort? or maybe he just has not as much talent with fox.... but how did he know to give up on fox even though he is telling you never to give up... simple this is what talent actually is... it is the ability to just to be able to learn from mistakes to begin with.

[@Atheist_1940]

I clicked on this video thinking the title said can anyone be a smash bros

[@beardlessdragon]

Spoiler: I'm the next DLC fighter

[@dumbchicken3340]

INSPIRING ASS VIDEO, HITS HARDER WITH THE ULTIMATE PUFF GOING STRONG RN

[@eljando9674]

natural talent v hard work: sounds like the discussion during Naruto v Neji battle

[@aetherblackbolt1301]

But naruto had some of the best hand-me-down genes and crutches to rely on (son of 4th hokage, nine tails fox, and eventually the reincarnation of space jesus's son).

[@Fireball_2712]

@@aetherblackbolt1301 yeah kishimoto fucked up his own story :/

[@eljando9674]

Aether Blackbolt well Naruto even though he had a lot of hand-me-downs and ended up disproving his own point, he did have to work hard to discover who he was and what he wanted to do with his powers without too much guidance because the 3rd hokage basically left him to fend for himself initially

[@bigredog100]

@gamer time So true. Its so annoying seeing these "naruto has talent, Kishimoto bad lul" comments. Its so smooth brained.

[@antiseptic419]

You inspire me every time I see you and your work. The documentary on you was a changing point. When I saw all of your work and hatred towards you, made me want to work harder. So far I have beaten everyone I ever played in table tennis and I made my volleyball team with no prior experience. So thank you Hungrybox/Juan. Thank you.

[@Jerome616]

My personal advice for getting better at anything: if you would say “ I can’t do that”. Instead say to yourself “ I can’t do that, yet”. I started playing melee online and felt it was impossible to wave dash during my first month of actual practice, but I knew it was possible because others could do it. So I kept practicing. By month two, I could wave dash during practice, but during matches was to difficult. By month three I could wavedash during actual matches. If I had limited myself, I would never have grown as a player. I love that even after 30 years I still have challenges to overcome.

[@mrSPACEGUYS]

"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard" - Kevin Durant. This is a basketball example, but I truly live by these words. If you have a talent for smash, you may have the feel for the game, but anyone can be technically good at the game if they put the time in. If one with a talent for smash works hard on the game, that player will be both technically good and have good feel for the game, but a player that does not have that talent and that feel for the game, may never be as great as the hardworking prodigy. At the same time, you can never stop improving on the technical aspect of the game because the game is so limitless. In my conclusion, anyone can become the best as long as they put the time in it. The only part, which goes for anything, is that some have to put more work in to dedicate them selves than others.

[@vorporal8764]

Thank you Hbox! I really do think it's possible to grind your way to victory. I went from a decent IC/Fox main to born again Puff main after the Wobbling ban. I went from getting about top 8 at my local to winning it a few months after the switch. I have put an ungodly amount of time into Melee recently. I can't express how much I want to get good. Here's to hopefully putting in the right effort and nonstop grinding to see you at the top :)

[@itachi428123]

Very thoughtful analysis. I admire that you continue to push yourself to follow your own example. As someone who played the flute at a competitive level, your thoughts resonate with me a ton. Starting from the very worst player in my middle school to the best in my state by high school, I can certainly attest to the sentiment that hard work has quite simply NEVER lost to talent, since there is essentially no limit to effort while there is a finite amount of talent one can have. The only variable is the amount of intelligent work one is willing to put in! Passion is everything. Forever one of my biggest role models, we're all excited to continue to watch you grow and inspire the future. Thank you for the great content, Juan!

[@hahaminenowo7]

Everything all comes down to hard work.

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

I'm relatively new to the smash community and it actually surprised me how long most of the pro players have been playing smash and how young they were when they started. This really highlights their huge commitment to the game. Sure once in a while some kid comes along and takes a few matches against a pro player but can they adapt and turn the tables really fast because of their experience.

[@WyattHoldW]

Juan, this video was REALLY good. Thoroughly enjoyed every second of it!

[@AnthanKrufix]

Jokes on you, I have nether.

[@oatmealmangd]

Ok, that’s epic

[@obamagaming8753]

Nether update 1.16

[@ahmadkazan7994]

Epic.

[@MrDrumStikz]

So I got into music with little talent, and started singing with literally no talent. Now I'm a choir director who has done music direction in NYC. It isn't about talent, people. It's skill, practice, and determination. Work your tail off and get where you want to be.

[@subscribetopoppt1555]

Peter Fitzsimmons stfu

[@adeptproperty27]

I agree with ESAM with the argument that if you out work your opponent, you can still be the best. Talent helps, but no matter how good the talented players get, anyone can put in the work to reach that level that they were at. Edit: finished your video and well yeah you summed it up well.

[@Loxu69]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesnt work hard

[@edwinzuniga1987]

Talented hard worker > untalented hard worker > talented lazy worker.

[@rookeyji5177]

But when the talented works just as hard you can never be better than them

[@malcolm5965]

@@edwinzuniga1987 Untalented Hardest worker > Talented Hard Worker

[@kevfitzgerald6638]

Wont lie this was super motivational out of no where. Its a different side of hungry box then I usually see and I like both. Keep up the good work man.

[@bobjoe9575]

Thank you for this video. This is something I’ve been wrestling with recently and now I’m determined to put in the hard work to see how far I can push myself.

[@brockmaloney4050]

Honestly H-Box I’ve been in this stick before and I’ve wanted to get into competition for smash bros to a high level but where I live is terrible and there is no locals anywhere. But this gives me hope for the future that I can still play and master the game I love until I eventually can play in a tournament and come out on top. So far I’ve taken the M2K route, study the game freakishly and beat the crap out of my friends all the time. Also doesn’t help that I wanna play Shulk. But if I wanna play my low tier Puff like you I’m playing Mac baby.

[@picklenik9658]

This is the classic Rock Lee vs Sasuke Uchiha situation/competition from Naruto.

[@happycamperds9917]

It’s not just practicing a lot. It is practicing efficiently. This can come down to some outside factors, like friends who play Smash or available tutors. But, it is also passion, and knowing how to learn from your mistakes quickly.

[@TheTozotube]

Good video topic. This is something i thought about a lot when i got into competitive smash. Natural talent is a huge, huge advantage. I dont even think its right to call it “natural talent”. I would more-so consider it background, upbringing, and mainly, luck on how someone perceives something, like smash. People will always look at it differently, with an eye that can provide vision to so much more than your average player. This is everywhere in life and it will always be this way with literally everything, like school. I also think that some people can have a talent that they haven’t “unlocked” quite yet. That’s sometimes how it feels with myself in regard to smash. Sometimes i can tap into a mindset where i just know everything. I can read everything, punish everything, react, etc. But it happens so rarely and i cant control when i get in that mindset. Its a weird phenomenon. Im decent at the game, but i feel if i trained to think optimally and focus, i could be one of the best in the world and i think thats how it is for a lot of people. Some people just are born with abilities like that, it really is no different from a physical difference. Like someone being born with disabilities will have a disadvantage. Its a shame that the world can be like this but its also great because every one has something they can be amazing at even if they havent found it

[@superdestrier9160]

I play smash using the keyboard of my laptop. It's true, the skill ceiling is limitless

[@phyllo8958]

In theory, hard work could overcome any amount of talent. In practice, though, because talent makes hard work more effective, the vast majority of people have a practical limit. I have a knack for grammar rules and I rarely make a mistake. My brother, despite having written actual novels, still occasionally struggles with comma placement. It’s not that he can’t get better, but there will never be a situation where talent is completely made irrelevant.

[@Dallasboi1992]

Your explanation on all this sounds like it can apply to a lot of things. Video games, graphic design, a job, a lot of things. When I started out with my job, I really struggled to keep my rate. Now I am one of the better employees in the warehouse and even got employee of the month once. It can take hard work and dedication to become great at something. Circumstances can suck sometimes, but with the right work ethic, grind, and determination, you can become great at what you do.

[@VarsVerum]

Hard work does not need talent. But talent needs hard work. I see it all the time when C students in high school go to a B in college but A students who BS their way through high school turn into D students in college. Talent is a bonfire that can only be lit with discipline.

[@sammymontgomery4429]

There is one thing that I think affects your level that is unrelated to smash practice specifically, and that is your mental game. What I mean is your ability to stay calm, be able to handle stress and be able to keep multiple things in your head simultaneously. Also your attitude of winning. To keep a positive mind through a set even if you are one stock behind for an example. Mental fortitude, like be able to stay focus through a big tournament without getting tired or unfocused. In chess, I'm pretty sure it's important to have a strong cognitive ability, to be able to plan far ahead. In smash, that would maybe be to be able to analyse and adapt to your opponent quickly while still be able to keep a high pace in the actual battle. I'm thinking of how MKLeo usually can adapt towards the end of a set while being behind and turning games around completely. Another thing, hard work for a specific thing like Smash, and having passion to keep working hard, is in a way natural talent in itself. Not everyone will be able to stay that passioned for something like that. So if you are a hard worker and can play for hours, do research etc, then you might have "natural talent", but might have to take a longer road to the top level than the "prodigy, play little, become best" kind of type

[@GenusOfficial]

Isn't this kind of the age old "Nature vs Nurture" discussion

[@RipleySawzen]

It is, and nature pretty much kicks nurture's ass

[@divinity1079]

RipleySawzen Not even close to true. It’s a mix of both. Some people can learn at an advanced rate and require less training, but anyone can achieve greatness (they just may have to put in a or more work)

[@purpledefaultpfp6233]

@@divinity1079 preach bruh

[@Willakers]

IMO: It is a question of natural talent being tempered by experience. If you have minimal amounts of natural ability, it really will make it very difficult to ever improve substantially. Not to discount anyone with natural talent, but being born into it by sheer luck is pivotal to success as a pro. Just look at ZERO's prodigy players, little experience (1-2 years) absolutely bodying veterans of the game. Its not fair, but it's the magic. If you have a good level of talent (maybe not the best) then I would say hard work has the best chance of boosting you into the upper echelon of competitors, maybe even over people with natural talent because they may be lacking to see the need for that intense level of training. Even with superior reaction times they could be caught off guard do to superior game-sense and muscle memory.

[@falloffsss]

this man spittin facts

[@marciamakesmusic]

It depends on a lot of things. I think people often confuse talent for passion. Yeah there are people who are naturally talented at video games but I think thise people are far and few between when it comes to naturally talented competitive players. Coming from a performance art background myself, but in my field the "talented" people don't get far at all without a lot of practice or luck, usually both. Talent can be nice as a jumping off point but you have to shape it into something.

[@PengyDraws]

@@marciamakesmusic I think passion and talent come hand in hand, especially at younger ages. You do what you are good at, and you don't do what you suck at.

[@H1nted]

Juan is my favourite smash person ever ALSO he has the most lit liquid merch

[@tyronerequif4653]

There’s a wall that separates us, the ones behind are those who gave up in the face of adversity, the ones in front are those that wouldn’t give up and went beyond.

[@SaltInYourEye_ICs]

What HBox is saying by, “dedication” and “working” he means playing with extreme intent to improve. Vid review, thinking of answers and learning new things, and actually playing the game and trying to apply those things. I have a feeling a bunch of people will play 5,000 hours of quick play or Slippi unranked and think, “I put in hard work and time. Why are I not getting better than other people who put in less time? Maybe it’s bcs it’s not my fault and they just have talent.”

[@DiggityDawgDiggity]

This and ESAM's take are the best imo. Talent/Natural ability only determines how fast you can get better but someone can always out grind it

[@Deiteon]

I definitely agree that limiting factors shouldn't discourage anybody from grinding out something they love just because they may never become the best. However nobody should deny the existence of the innate factors that will help or hinder a person in any particular endeavor. For smash a lot of these factors are difficult to quantify but that doesn't mean that they're not there and don't contribute anything. Reaction time, finger speed, hand eye coordination, intuition for strategy, hell there's probably even an optimal finger length for a gamecube controller and a million other factors that contribute to how well you will do in the game. It's not defeatist to acknowledge that these exist; it's defeatist to acknowledge them and then give up because of them.

[@thiccfish6669]

Talent comes from how much you get out of the training you go through. The faster you learn and adapt in certain games/sports, the more talented you are imo

[@aidanillg6617]

You gotta have them good thumb joints

[@dozydude1159]

Mew2king has both IMO

[@parkerklinck263]

If the smash bros documentary series is accurate, it seems M2K's success is mostly attributed to the amount of time he put into learning and studying the game at the deepest, most intricate level. IIRC he put thousands of hours into compiling frame data for melee and committing a lot of that to memory, and then formulating the "perfect" strategy for fighting any player playing any character perfectly. M2K is the best argument against the "talent only" because, quite frankly, he does not have a natural talent for the game to the level that Mango or Ken or Azen did with Melee.

[@aguy3082]

@@parkerklinck263 He didn't have a natural talent for melee specifically, but he is definitely a genius.

[@dozydude1159]

@@parkerklinck263 he was a savant, like Hbox said, melee is like chess, a genius would be good at chess, mew2king was good at melee, but that's just my opinion. I think the reason mew2king fell short at times was due to his mental game

[@dozydude1159]

@@parkerklinck263 you are right though, he worked to the extreme

[@kizzagaming6523]

Muggsy Bogues was a super dope Basketball Player from the OG days 5"3. Work pays off, AND learning how to learn. Some people definitely learn things in a different way that might be better and require less work.

[@Meracog]

Some people do pick things up easier than others for sure(I have a friend like that and its frustrating tbh as I have to put more work into something that they can get pretty fast) But working your ass off at something you're passionate about I think is just as valuable as "Natural Talent" .

[@GunsofRampageClan]

I LOVED that you said what I always think...it's up to everyone to push their own limits further and further...sure it's easier for some people but this doesn't mean you can't get better. It shouldn't be about getting better than everyone else but better than what you were before

[@danielmajor3777]

It's never just ONE thing. It's not because of just "talent" or just "hard work". It's multiple factors. Talent is associated with things you can't directly control while hard work is what you can control. Talent factors: - Genetics (for anything physically related); - Personality ("IE-SN-TF-JP" look it up); - Are you auditive or visual ?; - Having good external influence (workplace and entourage you justs got but couldn't choose); - General emotional state (your developed self-esteem/ego and past emotional scars); Hard work factors: - A good mindset, the desire to push forward and learn new things; - A good thought process (internal monologue); - Your past experience in other things; - Your past acquired knowledge in other things; - Stable or focus emotional state while working; - Your work ethic (how you work, with who you work); - Good working frequency (consistently or by burst) - Good working environment (if you can choose it); If you are missing something in the hard work part, your work loses effectiveness and can end up even useless. That's what differentiates people. If you think I miss something, please comment it, I'm curious about your opinion.

[@therealcat2048]

When he said "will you be the next best player in the world... That's only up to you." I felt that.

[@Scorpio3002]

As an opera singer, I've heard this topic a lot in my field. It was nice to hear Hbox cite the opera world, because as he says, it's a bit more cut-and-dry in our field, because there are certain things that no amount of hard work will get you: at a certain point, your voice is what it is, and some people are blessed with better voices than others. But that's not the whole story: I was blessed with a good voice, but I know plenty of singers without good voices (and they'll be the first to admit to that) who have worked their ASSES off to succeed, and they're doing WAY better than I am with my pretty vocals and terrible work ethic.

[@patriciordz6803]

There is a study that says if you do any activity, what says how good you are is 25% the hours that you put to that activity and 75% genetics on how good you can get on the activity(sport, games, instruments... etc)

[@9Tensai9]

Well, if hungrybox believes in me, there's nothing else left to do but train.

[@joecortes2546]

I think your rise to number 1 is melee is a prime example as to why hard work beats talent, you can have talent all you want but if you don't practice, those who are behind are going to catch up

[@alphachillua8228]

I am glad that you brought this point across, Hungrybox; although that some people don't have natural talent, it does not mean that you cannot work hard to achieve your goals.

[@sharattseenivasan2742]

I can't believe Hungrybox is spiderman

[@GenericHuman54]

They way I see it, even if you aren't the best at the game, you still have so much to contribute to it. Izawsmash for example is one of the best Smash teachers there is and maybe with his videos, an up and coming player can make it to the top because of his advice.

[@Eggys0]

Thanks for the motivation, I just got walloped as my main and I needed to hear this.

[@LabedaSH]

It's like natures in Pokemon, some people are born with the ability to increase their stats faster than others, but since there is no max stat irl, your hard work can put you anywhere.

[@purinpuff1337]

Juan, keep up the good work on these videos!

[@kjhgfdfghjkdrtyuiwewe]

Some of it might have to do with how different people practice. A really good book with a bunch of studies on this is called Peak by 2 dudes. It goes over why a doctor who practiced for 5 years is better than one who has been practicing for 20, not due to born talent but through different ways of practicing and improving. It's like art, people who spend an hour studying the anatomy will probably be better at drawing people than someone who just started drawing random people with only imagnation for 5 hours

[@brando_ssb7577]

Videos like this give me a lot of hope cause all of us lower level players will never know how good we can get if we don't try

[@sabrewulf6320]

Just like there are many, many different personality types, there are many differences in people in terms of how they process information and how they learn and acquire new skills. And a lot of skills, including Melee, are very, very complex. They actually consist of tons of sub-skills if you will. There's the mechanics of it (physical movement), there's fundamentals like spacing, neutral, recovery, punish game, there's character-specific knowledge, match-up knowledge, PLAYER knowledge, ability to work under pressure, patience. Melee is a lot about multi-tasking. You need to be extremely proficient at all of the above sub-skills (and probably others I forgot to mention) in order to get to that top. And the rate at which people improve at those skills is not linear. Some of those skills become more or less important depending on your general skill level, and even the opponents you're facing. A "naturally talented" player might improve faster initially than someone without talent, but it's possible that they'll hit a wall at some point and don't know how to overcome it. At the same time, another player without natural talent (but working hard and studying smart) catches up a year or two later and has more self-awareness to push past personal barriers and eliminate their bad habits (which is a LOT harder than one might think). Maybe that second player will get better than the first if they don't figure out how to break their barrier, even if they were considered a prodigy at first. The thing is: these things don't become apparent until you're already insanely good. It's only when you get closer to the top that you'll know what that peak is and if you can climb past it. Virtually anyone can get good enough to be Top 50, and probably Top 20, if they are willing and able to put in the work. It might take you half as long, or twice as long, depending on a variety of factors. But saying you can't become a top player when, like me, you're still going 0-2 or 1-2 at best at locals is silly. The question is more: do you have what it takes to practice, TRULY practice the craft? Do you want to put in 3-4 hours a day practicing your fundamentals? Labbing Kill% against common threats? Watching your tournament replays and analyzing your mistakes and bad habits? Asking for feedback from people better than you? Make it a priority to save up and travel to events near you to compete against better players? If you want to get REALLY good at something, it's gonna be a long-term commitment, regardless of whether it's Melee or something else. A lot of people just choose not to because they don't know for sure they'll get there, so to them the effort isn't worth the uncertain outcome. Meanwhile, people who live and breathe Melee (or whatever other sport/skill they're invested in) just do it. Time is gonna pass anyway. Might as well spend it getting better at [insert skill/sport you admire].

[@HungRyy]

Great to hear your thoughts on this! I didnt even heard of this "drama". I guess I live under a rock o.O. I really agree with you and think your words and you as a person are really inspiring.

[@fortythrone369]

Yo you earned my sub after talking about opera singing. I have seen talentless people make it to the top out of sheer training and practice. Everything is about levels and where you can overcome them.

[@riprip253]

I believe it's that some people have the talent for something, which makes them start out at a higher level. But those people also tend to lack the hard-work mentality, making them less inclined to learn at very high levels of whatever thing they're doing. I see this in myself and many others. In the end, hard working players will stomp raw talent, it just starts the other way around, and at some point that talent will hit a brick wall where their skill level either settles, or they learn to work hard like everyone else. It's all just a head start.

[@brandoncormier6754]

I think an important thing to realize is that even if BestNess' statement is true, even if there is natural genetic barrier in all of us that limits how far we can push it; it simply doesn't matter. Because even in something like basketball, you can't objectively measure it. The only true way to find out is to give it your all forever. You never know your own limit and how far you can push it until you push it. No one can know the limit, and the mentality that there is a limit is only bad for your progression.

[@Ace-dc1yz]

I think the debate is there because people are blurring the definitions of hard work, and natural talent, making it seem like natural talent is a differentiator as far as max potential goes, and that hard work can't make up for it. This is because using "time" as the measurement for the hard work instead of the quality of the work is the major factor, work smarter not harder to see improvement, which can explain why someone who didn't do that doesn't get results. Additionally, any mental aspects attributed to "natural talent" don't have to be a barrier, since it's just a display of someone's understanding of an aspect of the topic, of which could instead be learned by another person, wheras it might have just been more immediately apparent to another type of person so it's more of a starting point or rate of learning increase than a difference in potential. So alot of people are confusing what's actually going on for their examples of differing results between people who "work hard" vs people who "don't" based on that mis-diagnosis, since they might not have actually been working smarter, or long enough to compensate for someone else's natural understanding, but that doesn't mean that hard work couldn't have gotten them there at some point. So the reality is that quality hard work can let you achieve anything that you could using any other method, because mastering something is a matter of learning and understanding, which can be done with focused effort. The real issue is "how to have quality hard work" in which does require an understanding in and of itself, since that requires an initial internal motivation to seek out answers and pave a path to success by improving your understanding, and thus ability to work hard to imrove more efficiently and effectively. So i think the issue is not about which one is better, if you can achieve anything with said work, then it's really about how much work you will have to put in to compensate for your lack of natural inclination to the understandings of the topic, but only until there is a barrier outside of mental aspects and understanding in order to reach max potential, such as an execution barrier like melee tech skill has, which now involves factors outside of your mindset. So it does require natural talent from an emotional perspective to drive yourself to that realization that hard work may be neccessary, at which point it's just a decision for each individual to make that not everyone is cut out for that kind of investment. So all in all I think it's 100% hard work to reach max potential, but someone who is more naturally gifted will have a higher starting point, reach their goals faster, and be more willing to put in that work, but not necessarily a higher potential, so natural ability is more of a convenience than a differentiator. Which means if hard work is neccessary regardless, then the whole "natural talent vs hard work" debate is really just "do those people who have a shortcut actually have to try" debate which is more of a whiny excuse than anything, rather than people doing what they have to do to improve.

[@WoollyOni]

I think to the Ratatouille quote “anyone can cook”. Sadly, not anyone can cook like the greatest of chefs. Rather, a cook of great work & talent CAN come from anywhere.

[@omgyeaXD]

I think it was a mix of an underrated character + natural talent + hard work + lack of matchup knowlege for the opponent.

[@killaknight12]

Also more effectiv and aimed training will lead to improving faster. Some people just grind for hours and don't analyse what's actually going on and why they get beaten, or how they could optimize a good play even further.

[@___i3ambi126]

One funny thing is that even if something has initial talent limiting you being at the top, its because your skill cieling is affected by genetics. If it was a difference in how fast you get better, then that can be overcome with time (by definition). So if the only genetics we care about is the skill cieling, no one can know if they have that cieling until they are there. So even if someone is slower than everyone else, they will never know if they have the high cieling until they point in the work to start hitting it. And thats if different cielings exist at all. So there is basically no reason for any player to think they have any lower chances of reaching the top until they test it.

[@pepekong]

The first tournament for any game I ever went to was a Smash 4 local in the city I went to college to. I was nervous as hell but managed to get 5th place and became the number one player for a season after a few months of attending these locals (with Jigglypuff btw) All my previous matchup experience was through For Glory, and I never practiced any kind of advanced techniques, hell I didn't even know you could tech on walls the first time I competed. I don't think this was natural talent from me, it was just being aware of my opponent's habits and how to exploit them, you know, basic fighting game stuff. We also have this player who was around number 8 on the city's PR, he worked his ass off like no one in our scene, he asked questions, asked for matches, and now he's number two in the whole state. He's definitely talented, but he's a clear example that hard work definitely pays off.

[@quetzal3428]

It would be cool to see you do something like a Ted talk. I feel like you would be good at things like that. Love the video!

[@Winton420]

Yo I respect you a lot more then i did before, truly an inspiration

[@XxStayL3G1TxX]

I honestly think the door of opportunities play a big role as well, there are some people that can let’s say happen to come across someone or something that can help them reach that top competitive level, where as there are some players that will probably have to really go out of their way to even come across someone or something that’ll make them come across a top competitive level. I’m sure there are many talented people that COULD be a top recognizable smash player but unfortunately don’t have the opportunity due to stuff such as finances, scheduling, etc. However, if one truly wants success they WILL find the way

[@whitenoiseforsleepingandmo3367]

It does make sense, the difference is that the basketball and the opera examples are easibly detectable, the chess one un the other hand it's a bit harder, but there is still a natural part to it, the hability to be aware of all of the pieces and to detect and avoid Bad moves are both related to perception that is natural, of course it can be trained. Great video, You always inspire me, and i complesrly agree inspire of this natural part "setting a cealing" higher or lower, it can be pushed bye anyone even tho it may take more effort form some of us

[@ProjectLuark]

I’ve been playing since brawl and a little bit of melee over at a friends house. I was absolutely horrendous and then 4 came out. The game started to click when I got the 3DS version and then the Wii U with GameCube controller. I wasn’t the best but I was good enough. When ultimate came out, the tides changed. I wanted to grind that game out with Lucario. It wasn’t clicking as fast but I got used to it. I experimented with other characters like Mewtwo, Corrin, Marth, Sonic, and piranha plant when he dropped. Then Puff came around, this was around the 2.0.1 patch so puff had almost nothing. I watched gameplay, studied, and grinded to my hearts content. I felt like I was great with puff, probably the best at puff in my school since no one else had the guts and patience for it. And then, the buffs. Ever since that day my puff has been astounding and learning all the tech chases and combos from you HBox has been a part of my growth. Without it, I probably would have dropped the character way sooner but I kept pushing. Now if only I could find tournaments around me after this chaos.

[@Maelys_ACNH]

I have a 20-25 frame reaction time and I kinda suck at the game I don't suck because I wasn't gifted with good reaction time, but because I don't practice as much as I should That logic applies to my reaction time just like it would apply for other people with their understanding of neutral, comboing and escaping comboes, ledgetrapping and other things The work you're willing/able to put into anything ends up mattering more than just talent

[@T3amThr33Silin]

This advice can be expanded to academia as well. Studying Math, Chemistry, and Physics (especially college level) require intense practice to master. Arguably, time required to master aforementioned disciplines would be less due to natural talent (Sensory Command, Abstract Aptitude, Imaginative Imagery, Memorization, Linguistical Command, etc.).

[@J0shReed]

Might Guy said it in ep. 419, "What if the genius trains just as hard?"

[@darklombax2580]

I agree with this sort of the thing is though when some one of expirence and training based skill vs a talent based skill experience will win tablet wins most of the time against random people, skill wins more competitive because they taught themselves to adapt fast

[@StarTM87]

This is going in my advice playlist

[@theSato]

More motivational than advice

[@MikeyOnKeys]

If you’re born with big hands it’s generally easier to play piano well, but almost anyone can play. Alexander Scriabin famously had small hands but he was still able to be a great pianist for his time (as well as composer). So, everyone can be great, it just comes from hard work. Some genetics and natural talent can give people the advantage. And this goes for basically anything, including smash.

[@bra_sanity6482]

I think M2K is a perfect example of hard work. The guy invested so much time into the games he competed, that he almost was frame perfect. Honestly, although to me M2K seems like a genius, he must have put more time into the game than anyone. H Box is plainly said naturally good at the game. Of course, he spends his time playing. But I think he "gets it quicker" Both are "gods" in the respective game. So as to if talent beats hard work? Yes. Can you make up for it? Yes, if you have the determination.

[@tgkrypton380]

If u can hit a down b on every stock using jiggly puff, yes anyone can become a smash pro( by heart)

[@ngames717]

It is very simple, talent exists for literally everything and it can not be argued that some people are just better at something because they just are, but if you work hard enough and put in the hours you'll get to the point were you are better than them. This is the story of the rabbit against the turtle race, the rabbit didnt have to work but got overtaken by the hard work of the turtle.

[@CasuaICole]

The thing about training and hours is that training means nothing if you're not looking where you need to improve. Time is not completely parallel to skill because the basic quickplay Zelda sure plays the game a lot, but doesn't know where to improve (or doesn't try to), which results in no improvement. It is like school, sure you are there 6-7 hours a day, but that time means nothing if you're not listening or learning.

[@jju00]

There will always be someone better than you, but that doesn't mean you should not pursue greatness. As said on Rattatoile: Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere.

[@SweetnLulz]

My buddy linked this to me and this was my pre-watch diatribe: "Also, anyone should be able to tell you the recipe for success at this point It's 10% luck 20% skill Hbox just poured a lot into his 15% concentrated power of will And could handle the 50% pain And quite literally, gave a 100% reason to remember the name." I appreciate the Never Ever video for exposing me to you Hungrybox.

[@zangetsu5549]

I believe anyone with a normal body can be good at something, it is just harder for some people and easier for others because we dont have the same capacities, but it is not impossible

[@Ballchugger]

One overlooked aspect in the talent vs hard work is the way you practice. If you practice inefficiently then of course you're gonna plateau and not improve until you put in 8+ hours daily. I see so many people "grind" out the game just by hitting netplay up and I'm not saying that doesn't help you. Infact it does, but if you mess up a wavedash in tournament and get punished by it, you shouldn't go to netplay. You should spend time into wavedashing and doing it correctly. Just my 2 cents.